a 2-fold Soulborn Question

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders,

pre-emptive self edit: I have read repeatedly that the Soulborn is a trap, if I have been misinformed, please ignore the following questions and simply correct this information.


-ahem- [B]IN A WORLD..... WHERE THE PARTY FIGHTER ROUTINELY OUTSTRIPS THE PARTY DRUID...

is the Soulborn a workable character as written?

to emphasize, until he was slain by a lucky Kraken, the party Paladin was THE most effective character in the party.

in such a party, is the soulborn workable as written?


if not....

would shifting their souldmelding progression down (basically, what they would get at level 4 they now get at level 1, at 5 now at 2, at 6 now at 3, and so on) and then extrapolating out the new empty levels from where the chart used to end (i.e. identifying the pattern used to create the soulborn table, and stretch it out to fill the now empty 16th-20th levels) work?

above block of text not make sense?
if the Soulborn got it's soulmeld/essentia/chakrabind progression 4 levels earlier (i.e. at level 1) would this make it a playable class?

[Suddo]

Soulborn is a trap for the same reason Paladin (straight paladin) is a trap. Paladin is to Cleric as Soulborn is to Incarnate or Totemist its that simple most would rather have more spellcasting than BAB. But if your player was having a blast with a Paladin he should enjoy Soulborn.

[Person_Man]

You may wish to take a look at my homebrew Soulborn fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121), which features improved meldshaper progression, and dead levels filled in with bonus feats. Alternatively, you can look at the War Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441), which is basically a Soulborn + Soulknife gestalt in one base class, with a couple of original ideas thrown in.

The RAW Soulborn is complete garbage, and should be ignored entirely even in a low optimization party. It's weaker then a core only Paladin, Fighter, and arguably weaker then the Monk.

[Andorax]

It seems to me (just a perception) that the Incarnum classes in general are strongest at the lowest levels...when they can be 'tricked out' with items that aren't items, and everyone does doesn't have items at all.

That 2nd level Incarnate with a +1 sword can do nifty things that the regular guys can't yet.


By the time the Soulborn's actual soulmeld abilities start kicking in, the items have already started flowing. They can hold their own...for a bit.

But before long, all of the Incarnum classes suffer from "you can't have a meld and an item in the same spot" syndrome. Sure, your 10th level Soulborn is decked out in soulmelds...but the 10th level fighter's got magic items that glow just as pretty in the same spots.



So from my experience, Incarnum classes are for specific-purpose dips, or for characters that for whatever reason (VoP anyone?) can't just deck out in magic items.


Earlier progression won't solve this problem in the long run.

[Big Fau]

It seems to me (just a perception) that the Incarnum classes in general are strongest at the lowest levels...when they can be 'tricked out' with items that aren't items, and everyone does doesn't have items at all.

That 2nd level Incarnate with a +1 sword can do nifty things that the regular guys can't yet.


By the time the Soulborn's actual soulmeld abilities start kicking in, the items have already started flowing. They can hold their own...for a bit.

But before long, all of the Incarnum classes suffer from "you can't have a meld and an item in the same spot" syndrome. Sure, your 10th level Soulborn is decked out in soulmelds...but the 10th level fighter's got magic items that glow just as pretty in the same spots.



So from my experience, Incarnum classes are for specific-purpose dips, or for characters that for whatever reason (VoP anyone?) can't just deck out in magic items.


Earlier progression won't solve this problem in the long run.

Meldshapers do start to tapper off, but they can still be effective in the mid/high levels. They really do need some better soulmelds though.

[Person_Man]

It seems to me (just a perception) that the Incarnum classes in general are strongest at the lowest levels...when they can be 'tricked out' with items that aren't items, and everyone does doesn't have items at all.

That's only partially true. At most, you're giving up 5 item slots. But the Totem chakra is slotless, and virtually everyone ends up spending a feat to double up on their favorite slot, so it's usually 3 or 4 slots, and it's not that big of a deal for most builds. The bigger issue is a lack of useful/powerful high level chakra binds. You get most of your best stuff at level 1 or 2, with a few key options parsed out at mid levels.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just take Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots). There. Maybe a second feat for Bluesteel Bracers if you want a higher initiative and already have Improved Initiative.

So yeah, roll up a fighter 2/paladin X and call it a soulborn. Maybe guide the player towards the Serenity feat, as well as giving him Complete Champion (devotion feats are quite nice, but not too powerful) and the Spell Compendium (paladin spells!). Even with that stuff, he's not exactly a pouncebarian with Wolf Totem, Stand Still feat, and a spiked chain. Maybe also give him the option of Practiced Spellcaster (either CMage or CArc), since his caster level sucks.

[Andorax]

That's only partially true. At most, you're giving up 5 item slots. But the Totem chakra is slotless, and virtually everyone ends up spending a feat to double up on their favorite slot, so it's usually 3 or 4 slots, and it's not that big of a deal for most builds. The bigger issue is a lack of useful/powerful high level chakra binds. You get most of your best stuff at level 1 or 2, with a few key options parsed out at mid levels.

The slots are less of an issue (though still valid). The main issue is that the regular fighters, paladins, psychic warriors and warblades have magic items that do the same, similar, or comparatively equivalent stuff. "I can save 15% on car insurance magic item costs" isn't an exciting class feature.

And the time the slots becomes an issue is when you have a neato-cool magic item you want to use, which then cuts your already limited list of available soulmelds to meld "around" the nifty item. It's a feature that limits your choices...and that stinks.

[eggs]

Soulborn is workable in the same sense as Aristocrat. You could probably snap the game in half with a Soulborn at certain tables, but it wouldn't be the class pulling the weight.

It can be somewhat useful in some Awesome Smite builds, but that's not exactly a high power level for 3e.

If you're fixing it with minimal tweaks, a start would be Full Meldshaper level, 3/4 an essentia per level, normal shaping progression -[1 or 2] and Chakra binds at reasonable levels (if the feats give the binds earlier, it's too late). The Soulborn melds are rather limited on their own, so even with a fast progression, it won't be flying or teleporting around at levels 1-3 like an Incarnate or Totemist; if you want to hit it up to that power level, it basically needs a complete rewrite.

[Particle_Man]

If you don't mind teh Evil you could be a CE soulborn 2/Barbarian X and never have to worry about str penalties due to post-rage fatigue. :smallbiggrin: Or go LE soulborn 2/barbarian X/Frenzied Berzerker Y and only have fatigue, never exhaustion. :smallsmile: