[PF]Bonus Firearm Damage with a MS/Paladin?

[RndmNumGen]

I'm playing around with a multiclass Mysterious Stranger/Paladin because I just love the idea of going around smiting things with black powder. The issue I'm dealing with is that firearm damage doesn't scale very well, however. I'm thinking about going MS 1/Paladin X to get the highest damage bonus from Smite Evil, but that's only on evil targets and only a certain number of times per day.

Are there any other good ways to gain bonus damage on attacks? Stuff that can be multiplied on a critical is nice, but not required. I'm fine with a dip or two, but I would really like to stay Paladin for most of my levels.

[rezplz]

In a campaign that I'm DMing, a gun-using paladin is easily the one putting out the highest damage output out of the whole group.

If you take the archtype oath of vengeance, you can trade uses of your sub-par lay on hands ability for MOAR SMITING.

Take this and the fact that most days go with 5 encounters max...

Every combat you should be able to smite evil. Once you're high enough level and you can afford it, take quick draw and have a bunch of loaded pistols on you at all times. That way you can effectively dual wield in addition to rapid shot, by dropping your off-hand pistol every time you shoot with it. Gets around the whole pesky "Needing two hands to reload" thing.

In fact, if you've got the feat to burn you can go pure paladin - just take weapon proficiency (firearms) and you're good to go. No gunslinger required, although mysterious stranger is nice for ignoring misfires a few times a day.

[grarrrg]

In fact, if you've got the feat to burn you can go pure paladin - just take weapon proficiency (firearms) and you're good to go. No gunslinger required, although mysterious stranger is nice for ignoring misfires a few times a day.

Mysterious Stranger gets the "Ignore Misfire" ability at level 5, which is much more than a quick dip.


I'm thinking about going MS 1/Paladin X to get the highest damage bonus from Smite Evil, but that's only on evil targets and only a certain number of times per day.

Are there any other good ways to gain bonus damage on attacks? Stuff that can be multiplied on a critical is nice, but not required. I'm fine with a dip or two, but I would really like to stay Paladin for most of my levels.

First, check out the Gunslinger Handbook (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213035).
It's still a work in progress but most of it is done.

Have you considered/looked at Holy Gun (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/holy-gun) Paladin?
It would bypass the need to take Mysterious Stranger, and as your free Deed from Amateur you could grab "Quick Clear" for when you do Misfire.
And yes, I know your Grit Pool only starts at 1, but every time you Crit/Kill something you gain a Grit, so you could easily have MANY Smiting Shots every day from level 1.


As for general damage assistanctake quick draw and have a bunch of loaded pistols on you at all timese, you can't beat Deadly Aim (Power Attack for Ranged!), since you're shooting at Touch AC, you can more easily afford the accuracy loss.

You don't need a bunch of pistols. 2 is plenty. You also don't need Quick Draw (it can be handy, but not necessary).
2 Pistol Reload Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453)
Look at Option 1B, 2 Pistols and 2 Weapon Cords (CHEAP!) are all you'll need for the early levels (well, that and the Rapid Reload feat).

[RndmNumGen]

That's good, though I'm curious how 1d8+Cha+Lv per shot from a gun stacks up with, say, a 2HF's 1d12+(Str*1.5)+Power Attack. It just doesn't seem like it really measures up...

Assuming, say, level 5 with 18 in a core stat, the Paladin would be doing 1d8+8 damage per shot, while the 2HF will be doing 1d12+12 damage per hit. Granted, the gun is ranged, but it has a small range increment, so you're on the front lines anyway.

EDIT: I was thinking about playing this with Pathfinder Society, so Holy Gun would be out. I was considering Divine Hunter instead for the free Precise Shot feat.

[grarrrg]

....from a gun stacks up with, say, a 2HF's 1d12+(Str*1.5)+Power Attack. It just doesn't seem like it really measures up...

Assuming, say, level 5 with 18 in a core stat, the Paladin would be doing 1d8+8 damage per shot, while the 2HF will be doing 1d12+12 damage per hit. Granted, the gun is ranged, but it has a small range increment, so you're on the front lines anyway.

Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat), same modifiers as Power Attack, but Ranged weapons only helps with the damage.

Also, while you won't do as much per shot, you WILL be hitting more often since you only need to hit Touch AC. Less Damage + More Hits = Roughly the same damage.

And it's still a Ranged Weapon, limited range yes, but still ranged, so you don't have to waste as many actions on moving/chasing down your opponents.

[Tokuhara]

Quick question: Do any PF Archetypes combo with Holy Gun? I would adore to play one in a 3.P Gestalt as a Holy Gun//Inquisitor

[meemaas]

Check this link. Someone did all the work for us. Pathfinder Archetype combos guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229326&highlight=archetype+pathfinder)

[Tokuhara]

So a Human Holy Gun of the Light//Inquisitor with a Culverin and a Tower Shield (to brace the gun on) = 15' Cone of Smite Evil? Holy -Bleep-, quite literally.

http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/jean-m.gif

[Crasical]

So a Human Holy Gun of the Light//Inquisitor with a Culverin and a Tower Shield (to brace the gun on) = 15' Cone of Smite Evil? Holy -Bleep-, quite literally.

1. Probably can't brace a Culverin on a Tower Shield
2. Can't reload the Culverin if your arm is tied up holding the tower Shield

[Tokuhara]

1. Probably can't brace a Culverin on a Tower Shield
2. Can't reload the Culverin if your arm is tied up holding the tower Shield

Plant the tower shield in the ground, brace cannon on shield, open fire on poor mob of losers

[RndmNumGen]

Well, it's not really a cone of smite evil(since the paladin now chooses one target to smite), and bracing the gun on the tower shield is questionable, but it does sound pretty awesome.

[Acanous]

I'd let it work, provided you no longer gain the shield bonus to AC.

[grarrrg]

Well, it's not really a cone of smite evil(since the paladin now chooses one target to smite), and bracing the gun on the tower shield is questionable, but it does sound pretty awesome.

He's not using Smite Evil, he's using the Holy Gun's Smiting Shot, which actually works more like 3.5's Smite Evil, in that it only applies to 1 attack (but due to Grit can be used more often).

[Tokuhara]

He's not using Smite Evil, he's using the Holy Gun's Smiting Shot, which actually works more like 3.5's Smite Evil, in that it only applies to 1 attack (but due to Grit can be used more often).

Right, and since my attack is a cone of grapeshot (2d8), that's the cone + smiting shot

[Ravens_cry]

Rather sub-par compared to Vanilla Smite (even more so with Vow of Vengeance) unless you're fighting large groups of puds, as it is a standard action, which means only one shot per round.
A feat I'd like to see would be Weapon Cord Mastery: Retrieving a dropped weapon attached to a weapon cord becomes a Free Action, not Swift.
Drop, reload left, drop, reload right.

[grarrrg]

Rather sub-par compared to Vanilla Smite (even more so with Vow of Vengeance) unless you're fighting large groups of puds, as it is a standard action, which means only one shot per round.
A feat I'd like to see would be Weapon Cord Mastery: Retrieving a dropped weapon attached to a weapon cord becomes a Free Action, not Swift.
Drop, reload left, drop, reload right.

Dude, I already solved the "Reload problem" with my 2 Pistol Reload Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453) (which I linked earlier in the thread).

Give it a read.


As for Smiting Shot, it gives CHA + Paladin Level to Damage (no to-hit bonus) vs. EVIL. it costs a Grit per use, but Grit can be regained throughout the day by Killing things, and making Critical hits.
And if he's firing a Culverin (or other 'Shot' gun) into a crowd of EVIL creatures, he will VERY likely gain his Grit back, and more.
As long as he keeps killing EVIL things, he can use Smiting Shot all day long.

It also makes for great fun the opening round of combat.
Then you can switch to your Musket/Pistol and fight as normal.

[Tokuhara]

Dude, I already solved the "Reload problem" with my 2 Pistol Reload Mini-Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12589453#post12589453) (which I linked earlier in the thread).

Give it a read.


As for Smiting Shot, it gives CHA + Paladin Level to Damage (no to-hit bonus) vs. EVIL. it costs a Grit per use, but Grit can be regained throughout the day by Killing things, and making Critical hits.
And if he's firing a Culverin (or other 'Shot' gun) into a crowd of EVIL creatures, he will VERY likely gain his Grit back, and more.
As long as he keeps killing EVIL things, he can use Smiting Shot all day long.

It also makes for great fun the opening round of combat.
Then you can switch to your Blunderbuss and fight as normal.

Fixed that for you. GM is planning on us being around 10th level and fighting hordes of undead (skeletons, zombies, etc.), so Spray Smite seems appropriate

[Person_Man]

Question from someone who isn't intimately familiar with Pathfinder optimization: How does gun damage/effects compare to using a bow, and how does that compare to blasty spells?

[stack]

Currently playing a MS/Holy Gun. Blunderbuss smites are indeed fun, but even against zombies you can run out of grit in an extended fight. Not every hit will drop a level appropriate foe and you miss sometimes, but it still works. The CHAx2 + Paladin level to damage for 2 grit is nice (using both the smite and the focused shot).

[grarrrg]

Question from someone who isn't intimately familiar with Pathfinder optimization: How does gun damage/effects compare to using a bow, and how does that compare to blasty spells?

In general, Guns and Bows are roughly equivalent, with the main difference being Cost. Guns/Bullets are PRICEY! 700+gp for a simple Pistol, 11gp per shot! (10gp Powder, 1gp Bullet, can be reduced with Craft-your-own of course).

Guns only need to hit Touch AC in first Range increment, but the range increments are MUCH shorter than Bows (20ft. Pistol, 30/40ft. Musket). There are ways to increase Touch-range, so it's not quite as limited as it looks at first glance.

Bows don't have a chance of exploding in your face.

It is harder to get bonus damage on Gun attacks. With Bows you can just use a STR-appropriate Composite Bow. Extra Gun damage requires levels in Gunslinger. 5 levels gives Dex-to-Damage, OR 1 level of a Gunslinger Archetype gives Cha-to-Damage for 1 round at the cost of 1 Grit point.
(Yes Holy Gun>Smiting Shot has been mentioned, but you trade away Smite Evil, so I'm calling that an "even trade" and it doesn't count)


Summary:
Guns are better if you can afford them, and properly optimize.
Bows are more accessible and reliable.

[Person_Man]

Summary:
Guns are better if you can afford them, and properly optimize.
Bows are more accessible and reliable.

And how does that compare to a Sorcerer with an appropriate Bloodline/Archetype/whatever who takes a lot of blasty spells with interesting status effects?

[CheshireCatAW]

It has been my experience that the Sorc will do better in both damage and status effects.

Generally, the equivalency between bows and guns is pretty spot-on. You will get the same idea of effectiveness by comparing your Ray-Sorc with a more well known bow-archer.

[Cieyrin]

So a Human Holy Gun of the Light//Inquisitor with a Culverin and a Tower Shield (to brace the gun on) = 15' Cone of Smite Evil? Holy -Bleep-, quite literally.

http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/jean-m.gif

Actually, 30' Cone of Smite Evil, Scatter doesn't reduce its range, blunderbusses and dragon pistols specifically do that. Culverins do not have such a clause, so you'd use their normal range.

Also, I feel a bit smug having 2 of my guides linked in the same thread. :smallamused:

As for the original question, a good firearm is probably going to be abusing Point Blank Shot and Deadly Aim, considering the range of Penetration is for the most part within Point Blank Range and you need it for Precise and Rapid. Add in Focused Aim and Smite Evil (Didn't notice Divine Hunter wasn't bow exclusive, the picture misled me!) and you should be keeping up handily with THFers.

1d8+1+Cha+Pally level+Deadly Aim at much lower touch AC, compared to 2d6+1.5 Str+Power Attack against full AC, should be pretty comparable. With Rapid Shot thrown in, you may exceed their damage, which is a pretty even trade since the THFer will probably be grabbing up Furious Focus. Even without Pally level from Smite Evil, it works out decently.

Let's say make prime stat 16, level 4 and a +1 weapon, when Power Attack and Deadly Aim upgrade damage. That means 1d8+10 when not smiting twice (thanks to Rapid Shot) vs. 2d6+11 once, so the gun does 11-36 averaging 29 in a round if full attacking, 11-19 averaging 14.5 if moving into range, the greatsword 13-23 averaging 18 in a round. So I think you can deal just fine.

[Tokuhara]

That, and the GM is letting Rapid Reload turn my reload time into a Move Avtion, so I can shoot, relocate, reload, and next turn ruin another mob's day. All with not penalty to backfires.

He's also Homebrewing a feat called Seasoned Gunslinger (requires either Gunslinger Levels or Rapid Reload and Proficiencies in Firearms) that reduces it down to a swift action, with spending a move action to get a +2 to hit and to damage. Plan on grabbing it later.