Battlefield Royale: Factions at War [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Selrahc

2012-04-10, 01:50 PM

A cross universal versus thread, dedicated to determining the ultimate champion in a clash of armies, empires, factions and kingdoms. Who will win? Ultimately, that's up to you. Unlike a regular vs. thread, this one will have a determined winner based on votes within a deadline, and by the end of the tourney there will be champions decided. The ultimate aim however, is that we get some interesting discussions and fun fights.

This concept is a spin-off from Battle Royale, whose last incarnation was run by Sunken Valley.

Rules

1. Battles will be decided by number of votes over a two week period. In the event of a draw, I will cast the deciding vote. Votes will not be questioned or discarded, but you are encouraged to vote based on the faction that you believe will win.
2.Eligible Contestants-All contestants must be from a pre-existing fictional setting. They must be from a cohesive faction, with enough information available to maintain discussion. Factions may be entered into Hi-Power or Lo-Power.(Explained below). Only one faction may be entered per fictional setting.
3. Hi-Power factions are those whose military strength is clearly greater than that of the Allied forces during WW2. Lo-Power factions are those whose military power is below that. As with Battle Royale, this may mean large discrepancy within the groups. I reserve the right to reject competitors who would warp the game.
4. Both sides are fighting over an objective that they wish to attain, although not one that is worth the destruction of their faction. The only means to attain this objective is military victory. Diplomatic accord is equivalent to surrender by the initiator.
5. Victory will be achieved either by forcing the opponents to surrender, or by convincingly capturing their "Spawn point".
6. Battlefield: The battlefield will be a limitless size Earth-like planet, with no pre-existing infrastructure. Other battlefields may be proposed on a battle by battle basis, and may be enacted if they seem fun.
7. Starting locations: Forces will start 300 miles from each other in low-power, 20,000 miles from each other in high power. Forces will start within easily defensible terrain, with a pre-fabricated stronghold. Holding the starting stronghold, or the terrain it was on, for 72 hours is the condition for victory referred to above.
8. Force composition: Forces will be assembled by giving both factions one year of notice, and reasonable inference as to what could be fielded under those conditions. Reasonable allies are permissible. No reinforcements will be allowed after the battle begins.
9. Planetside forces only. No space craft or space based support systems will be teleported to the battleground.
10. Supply Lines: factions will be assumed to have a supply line between their army and their homeland. Although if a faction has trouble sustaining long term military conflict, that may be taken into account.
Rosters

Hi-Power

1. The Empire (Star Wars)
2. The Imperium (WH40K)
3. SHIELD (Marvel)
4. The Baatezu (Dungeons and Dragons: 2ed, Planescape)
5. Cybermen (Doctor Who)
6. Green Lantern Corps (DC)
7. Covenant (Halo)
8. Coalition of Gears (Gears of War)
9. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga)
10. Black Hole Army (Advance Wars)
11. The Black Knights (Code Geass)
12. Decepticons (Transformers)
13. Reapers (Mass Effect)
14. Shadows (Babylon 5)
15. Dominion (Star Trek)
16. Cylons (Battlestar Galactica)
17. Star Empire of Manticore (Weberverse)
18. Time-Space Administration Bureau (Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho/Nanaho StrikerS)
19. Dai Shocker (Kamen Rider Decade)
20. Free Planets Alliance (Legend of Galactic Heroes)
21. Gilgamesh Confederation (Armored Trooper VOTOMS)
22. Principality of Zeon (Gundam)
23. Empire of the Rising Sun (Command and Conquer)
24. Zerg (Starcraft)
25. Combine (Half-Life 2)
26. Anti-Spirals (Gurren Lagann)
27. Daelkyr (DnD: 3ed Eberron)
28. The Culture (Culture series)
29. Mobile Infantry (Starship Troopers)
30. Fremen (Dune)
31. The Aesir (Scion)
32. ZAFT (Gundam)

Lo-Power

1. Westeros (A Song of Ice and Fire)
2. The Wulfenbach Empire (Girl Genius)
3. The Horde (Warcraft)
4. The forces of Sauron (Lord of the Rings)
5. The Illians (Fall From Heaven 2)
6. Fire Nation (Avatar)
7. Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist)
8. Draconians of Teyr (Dragonlance)
9. Skaven (Warhammer Fantasy)
10. Kingdom of Elves (Shannara)
11. Death Eaters (Harry Potter)
12. Hobgoblin Army (Order of the Stick)
13. Kushan Empire (Berserk)
14. Black Company (Chronicles of the Black Company)
15. Spartan Army (300)
16. Seanchan Empire (Wheel of Time)

(First fights are coming in the next post)

Selrahc

2012-04-10, 01:51 PM

Current Fights: Hi-Power Round 1, Fights 9-12. Lo-Power Round 1, Fights 5-6. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13195186&postcount=76)

Previous Fights:
Hi-Power Round 1, Fights 1-4. Lo-Power Round 1, Fights 1-2:Start (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13047537&postcount=3) Finish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13124556&postcount=43)
Hi-Power Round 1, Fights 5-8. Lo-Power Round 1, Fights 3-4: Start (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13124605&postcount=44) Finish (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13195136&postcount=75)

Selrahc

2012-04-10, 01:57 PM

Hi-Power Round 1: Fights 1-4
13. Reapers (Mass Effect) vs. 26. Anti-Spirals (Gurren Lagann)
24. Zerg (Starcraft) vs. 18. Time-Space Administration Bureau (Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho)
11. The Black Knights (Code Geass) vs. 19. Dai Shocker (Kamen Rider Decade)
28. The Culture (Culture series) vs. 30. Fremen (Dune)

Lo-Power Round 1: Fights 1-2
2. The Wulfenbach Empire (Girl Genius) vs. 5. The Illians (Fall From Heaven 2)
9. Skaven (Warhammer Fantasy) vs. 6. Fire Nation (Avatar)

Fights end on 24th April 8pm GMT.
Please vote and discuss.

Forum Explorer

2012-04-10, 02:27 PM

The Reapers: The fight wouldn't escalate to utter destruction levels for the Anti-Spirals. The reapers can bring in a lot of numbers to soak up the destructive power of the Anti-Spirals. Plus the Anti-Spirals is a little silly of a choice for this competition.

Zerg: Mostly through unfamiliarity with their opponent

The Black Knights: Same as above

The Culture: Don't know much about them but they have a devastating reputation

v

The Wulfenbrach Empire: Familiarity vote

Skaven: Sheer numbers with brutal tactics and deadly magitech.

Beacon of Chaos

2012-04-10, 02:38 PM

Sadly, I don't know enough about any of these to make a vote :/

I did spot this though:

27. Daelkyr or Chamber (DnD: 3ed Eberron)
Needs to be one or the other.

maglag

2012-04-10, 05:00 PM

Eldan

2012-04-10, 07:01 PM

Let's see...

13. Reapers (Mass Effect) vs. 26. Anti-Spirals (Gurren Lagann)

I have only played Mass Effect 1, but thought that the Reaper in that game was actually pretty unimpressive in the end, it went down to regular bombardment. Of course, there are more, and they can probably bring in much larger weapons, but nothing that even remotely compares to the way that the Anti-Spirals can take the laws of physics and play Ping-Pong with them.

24. Zerg (Starcraft) vs. 18. Time-Space Administration Bureau (Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho)
Don't know either of them sufficiently, but I'd assume that anything with "Time-Space" in its name can't really lose to an alien swarm.

11. The Black Knights (Code Geass) vs. 19. Dai Shocker (Kamen Rider Decade)

Don't know the second.

28. The Culture (Culture series) vs. 30. Fremen (Dune)

From what I hear of the Culture, this is not even close. The Fremen on an Earth-like planet? All their best weapons are limited to desert areas. Without Paul Atreides, they were never much of a threat even to their own galactic civilization, and the culture can just roflstomp them.

Lo-Power Round 1: Fights 1-2
2. The Wulfenbach Empire (Girl Genius) vs. 5. The Illians (Fall From Heaven 2)

Very interesting, actually. THe problem here? The Illians are a faction from an Civilization game. As with all such games, and more so in FFH2, they go from being fur-clad savages wielding wooden clubs to full-plate armoured demigods teleporting across continents, summoning city-sized monsters and levelling continents with their spells. We need to define a tech-level here.
That said, their leader is an actual god, once he gets his ascenscion up, and they can summon a kind of mental ice-age very early in the game, which makes the enemy faction unable to build or invent anything new for a long, long time, which would probably cripple a spark civilization utterly.
That said: More Information needed.

9. Skaven (Warhammer Fantasy) vs. 6. Fire Nation (Avatar)

I never watched Avatar, I've only seen clips and trailers, but this one is probably very close. If the Skaven were united, I'd give it to them, but of course they aren't ever. That said: technological weapons at least as good as those of the Fire Nation, devastating magic, chaos-powered plutonium nukes, endless numbers, custom-tailored biological weapons and monstrous creatures the size of buildings, as well as daemons?
I give this one to the Skaven.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-10, 07:58 PM

Considering the actual parameters of the battlefield, does it matter than the Anti-Spirals can field galaxy-throwing mecha? They certainly can't fit one on a planet, and space-going forces are banned...so they're capped at whatever mecha is still short enough to remain in atmosphere.

Forum Explorer

2012-04-10, 09:40 PM

Eldan

2012-04-10, 11:04 PM

I'm reasonably sure that if they really tried, they could still kick people to alternate dimensions on a planetary scale.

Man on Fire

2012-04-11, 04:42 AM

Anti-spirals:Reapers are nasty, but anti-spirals win for the simple fact they, just like TTGL, have mechas that can throw galaxies as shurikens. Heck, reapers are limited to just one galaxy last time I checked!

Actually I believe it's kinda pointless for the Anti-spirals to be here. Nothing sort of Getter Emperor or TTGL could really hope to take them on.

Anti-Spirals are basically omnipotent, but there is a line in TTGL that states that they never fight with their full power - they always accomodate the level of power they use to be equal to their opponent, to defeat them with strategy and numbers and so insane things like throwing the Moon at them, because that causes greater despair. Sometimes they're clearly cheating in this, like when they remove the law of cause and effect (so enemy gets damaged despite that their attack was to weak to break it's armor) but rarerly (in TTGL they did it once).

That said, I don't know much about Reapers, but I'm voting on Anti-Spirals. Their main forces on the ground are Mugans, strange geometrical objects that have high damage resistance, and once destroyed blows up into thousands of cubes that explodes whenever they touches anything.

But their main advantage is that they can outsmart their opponents - lead them into trap and then drop overwhelming forces at them. They can also create some dangerous stuff - their tactic against the reapers would be either create something to blew them up, probably with entire planet (in a way AS would survive) or equivalent of the space ocean - something where they could trap the Reapers and drain their power dry. I'l lcome back to it once I'll get more data on the Reapers.

(I may double post as I check factions in each battle, sorry for that)

Man on Fire

2012-04-11, 05:06 AM

11. The Black Knights (Code Geass) vs. 19. Dai Shocker (Kamen Rider Decade)

Don't know the second.

An organization made of various monsters and supervilains from Kamen Rider shows that has their hands in multiple dimensions they try to conquer. The question here really is if their clearly superior strenght in numbers (they have enough forces to conquer whole planets) with their army of monsters is enough to defeat army armed with giant robots (pretty small for mecha genre but still) and who has better strategists.

Don't know either of them sufficiently, but I'd assume that anything with "Time-Space" in its name can't really lose to an alien swarm.

They protect the Multiverse.

EDIT:
You know what? I want to see a battle beteen Dai-Shocker and Time-Space Administration Bureau, vote on each in their respective battles.

Chen

2012-04-11, 08:57 AM

13. Reapers (Mass Effect) vs. 26. Anti-Spirals (Gurren Lagann) - Don't even know these guys but Reapers are extremely weak when planet-side (they need to use their mass effect fields to prevent them from being crushed by their huge weight) so without being in space they're going to get rocked by most of the rest of these guys.

24. Zerg (Starcraft) vs. 18. Time-Space Administration Bureau (Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho) - Don't know the Bureau so I want something to vote for in the next rounds.

11. The Black Knights (Code Geass) vs. 19. Dai Shocker (Kamen Rider Decade) - Pass don't know either.

28. The Culture (Culture series) vs. 30. Fremen (Dune) - This one is just plain unfair. Poor Fremen.

Eldan

2012-04-11, 09:08 AM

Probably not that poor. Given what I've heard on how the culture opeates, they'd probably end happier than they started.

Selrahc

2012-04-11, 03:12 PM

The Illians
...
More Information needed.

The Illians have a lot of fluff behind them. The FFH2 campaigns focus very heavily on the Illians, so we get to see a lot of how they operate and get a pretty good idea of their "real" strength, behind all the civilization game mechanics.

A brief history of the Illians.

The Illians are the remnants of a tribe that was claimed by Mulcarn, God of Winter. The Illians spent a few hundred years before the main setting of FFH2 as the chief cronies of the God as he ruled the world in a perpetual ice age. Then he was killed, and the Illian empire came tumbling down. When the story picks up, the last few tattered remnants of the tribe are being pursued by an alliance of goodly nations, who seek to quash the threat they represent. The Illian leader is an incompetent fool, and the people are demoralized and near suicidal. They get saved from destruction by the Doviello, a tribe of Wolf Barbarians who also profited during the age of Ice and are the closest thing the Illians have to allies. The Doviello are acting on a prophecy, and deliver the Illian tribes to the mouth of Letum Frigus, the death site of Mulcarn.

That is where the Illians meet Auric Ulvin, a powerful young mage who claims to be the next incarnation of Mulcarn. He offers them power and glory if they will help him in his quest for Ascension. The Doviello join up too, initially providing the bulk of the military force.

The Illians then proceed to become really really strong. The battered, fairly cowardly, tribes are honed into a war machine fanatically dedicated to Auric. In the process they raid the weapon store of the godswar at Pristinus Pass, so the Illian soldiery are really well equipped. They waken the ancient Dragon, Drifa(albeit, by selling out one of their mercenary allies). They find the last of the Frost Giants, as well as other servants of Mulcarn. The Doviello resurrect Baron Duin Halfmorn into a werewolf. The empowered Illian forces crush the Grigori, ravage the Luchuirp and Bannor and generally prove to be incredibly tough to stop.

At which point the goodly civilizations notice the carnage Auric is causing, and that he is one step from his Ascension. In an attempt to avert a global ice age, they assemble a last ditch military force to destroy him. A grand military alliance consisting of half a dozen nations.

They succeed. Auric is slain, the Illians are again shattered and their Doviello allies are barely in better shape. It looks like the rise of winter has been halted for evermore..
except it turns out Auric's soul has been ripped out by the funky blade which killed him and now is in service of an ancient and powerful Archmage who lives in the underworld. Probably never going to be fulfilled sequel hook for the win?

The point at which I would say the Illians are ready for this tournament is the point just before they meet Falamar's Grand Alliance. What do they have at that point, and how do they fight?

Illian Armies

A large elite force of Illian Soldiers, armed with enchanted mithril blades. Due to their heritage, they are exceptionally resistant to cold.

Powerful mages, specializing in frost magic. Snowstorms, Ice Elementals and spells to freeze opponents are the order of the day. The most powerful mages, as well as the priests of winter can freeze miles of terrain, turning the battlefield into a snowy wilderness. The perfect terrain for Illians, hell for their opponents.

An auxiliary corps of Doviello Barbarians. By the time of the Grand Battle, a lot of the more sane Doviello have abandoned Auric. But a devoted core of fanatics and psychopaths are still around. Probably the most important thing they bring are the werewolves of Baron Duin. FFH Werewolves spread the curse by bite, and new werewolves are feral, before eventually casting off old loyalties and joining the pack. A werewolf attack can spread lycanthropy through an army to devastating effect if proper precautions aren't taken.

The Illians also levied a draft of soldiers from the cities they conquered, which would make up a large portion of their armies in the final battles.

Ancient creatures devoted to Mulcarn, pressed into service by the Illians. Gigantic Eagles, Frostlings, Wilboman the Frost Giant and Angels of Winter. These monsters might serve as the basis of a shock attack, but they aren't around in any real numbers.

Drifa the White Dragon is a more important addition. The ancient frost wyrm is almost the equivalent of an army herself.

What are the weaknesses of the Illians? The Illians were never really a fast moving army. They hired Hippus horse mercenaries, but since that relationship ended less than acrimoniously, they don't really have a strong cavalry presence. They also don't have a terribly good ranged attack ability, outside of spellcasters. The most common Illian ranged units are Javellin men, who are more skirmishers than killers. The general tech level of the Empire is around the Renaissance level, however the magically enhanced weapons probably boost things up quite a bit.

As far as numbers are concerned, the Illians probably have a mid-sized force to call on. Once the Doviello Auxiliaries, and conquered levy troops are called into account. The Elite core is smaller, but probably of more use.

Probably the most significant weakness of the Illians is their subservience to Auric. Generals will compete against each other for his favour rather than acting as a unified whole. If Auric was ever to fall, his faction would probably be doomed.

I hope that's helpful in explaining the Illians. I think the Wulfenbach empire could be a good match against them...

Istari

2012-04-11, 03:31 PM

24. Zerg (Starcraft) vs. 18. Time-Space Administration Bureau (Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho)
11. The Black Knights (Code Geass) vs. 19. Dai Shocker (Kamen Rider Decade)

Don't know enough about any of the others

Prime32

2012-04-11, 04:07 PM

24. Zerg (Starcraft) vs. 18. Time-Space Administration Bureau (Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho) - Don't know the Bureau so I want something to vote for in the next rounds.The TSAB are an alliance of different planets/dimensions who turned to (AI-assisted) magic after their advanced technology became too easily abused. Their elite units are powerful and flexible battlemages capable of massive-area attacks and barriers, flight, teleportation (transdimensional and otherwise), and long-distance telepathy. Plus they have spaceships with cannons that destroy things by distorting space-time around them.

Some videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6x0VqM9ZtM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ZFct5JF8Y

Eldan

2012-04-11, 09:52 PM

The Illians have a lot of fluff behind them -snip-

I was familiar with that fluff, yes. The question, I think, was more at which point we were looking at them, at the power scales are quite considerably different.

Fan

2012-04-12, 06:09 AM

Man on Fire

2012-04-12, 07:22 AM

Anti Spirals V.S. Reapers: This is perhaps somehow more unfair than the culture matchup. Literal infinite power to the degree where Galaxy throwing Mecha aren't even a fraction of what's truly available to them. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aKfoMMc22eY#t=115s)

See my post above - Anti-Spirals won't use something that their opponent technically cannot defeat, but will use it in a way that'll make the opponent think he cannot win to ensure the despair (which, considering rules of TTGL verse is briliant tactic but may have it's disadvantages against other forces).

Chen

2012-04-12, 07:25 AM

Anti Spirals V.S. Reapers: This is perhaps somehow more unfair than the culture matchup. Literal infinite power to the degree where Galaxy throwing Mecha aren't even a fraction of what's truly available to them. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aKfoMMc22eY#t=115s)

Uh so why are we even bothering to do the Hi power match-up if the Anti Spirals are that strong? I mean we might as well have added the Q into there like the last Battle Royal.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-12, 08:38 AM

See my post above - Anti-Spirals won't use something that their opponent technically cannot defeat, but will use it in a way that'll make the opponent think he cannot win to ensure the despair (which, considering rules of TTGL verse is briliant tactic but may have it's disadvantages against other forces).

Against the Zerg, for instance, that strategy would backfire horribly - when your opponent is a near-mindless eating machine swarm lacking emotions and literally too stupid to give up, they'd eventually be overrun.

Man on Fire

2012-04-12, 01:36 PM

Against the Zerg, for instance, that strategy would backfire horribly - when your opponent is a near-mindless eating machine swarm lacking emotions and literally too stupid to give up, they'd eventually be overrun.

That's exactly why I asked for more info on the Reapers - depending on how they would react to opponent like this they may have an advantage or disadvantage - they're machines, that I know, but depending on how fearless and logical they are they have prove to be a challenge (through I still think that Anti-Spirals woud win by strategy or by building something like that ocean they tried to trap Dai-Gurren Brigade - escaping from it was technically possible and they did it, but their computer calculated the propability of it to be 0% - if Reapers are deadly logical they would belive calculations and die). But again, I need more info on how the Reapers behave.

Forum Explorer

2012-04-12, 01:44 PM

I haven't finished Mass Effect 2 so I can only draw from my experinces from the first one. The Reapers seem to be pretty cocky and do use emotions. While they are mechanically based they don't run on pure logic and neither do their servants (which are mostly brainwashed minions)

Man on Fire

2012-04-12, 01:55 PM

Then they may have chance, if they don't buy into AS mind-games. I'm still betting on Anti-Spirals, because the only people who managed to beat them were to insane to be manipulated but yeah, I won't say it would be curbstomp as people seem to think - Anti-Spirals don't win by their omnipotence, but through superior tactic and numbers. Sure, they may manipulate and trick you, lead you into a trap or set all sort of terrible things to stop you, but in war terms they are playing fair.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-12, 02:30 PM

That's exactly why I asked for more info on the Reapers - depending on how they would react to opponent like this they may have an advantage or disadvantage - they're machines, that I know, but depending on how fearless and logical they are they have prove to be a challenge (through I still think that Anti-Spirals woud win by strategy or by building something like that ocean they tried to trap Dai-Gurren Brigade - escaping from it was technically possible and they did it, but their computer calculated the propability of it to be 0% - if Reapers are deadly logical they would belive calculations and die). But again, I need more info on how the Reapers behave.

Presumably an actual machine intelligence race would have better computers, or at least more accurate ones - if it was actual 0% probability, it by definition wouldn't have been possible, so it must have been 0.0000000whatever1% chance that the computers just rounded down.

Prime32

2012-04-12, 09:08 PM

Presumably an actual machine intelligence race would have better computers, or at least more accurate ones - if it was actual 0% probability, it by definition wouldn't have been possible, so it must have been 0.0000000whatever1% chance that the computers just rounded down.Nah, it was 0%, it's just that the protagonists' power was "make logic cry". :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone

2012-04-12, 11:30 PM

Nah, it was 0%, it's just that the protagonists' power was "make logic cry". :smalltongue:

But that defies what MoF is saying, that the Anti-Spirals always fight in a way that technically gives their opponents a chance at victory. 0% is not a fighting chance, so either MoF is wrong or it wasn't actually 0% odds.

Man on Fire

2012-04-13, 04:57 AM

But that defies what MoF is saying, that the Anti-Spirals always fight in a way that technically gives their opponents a chance at victory. 0% is not a fighting chance, so either MoF is wrong or it wasn't actually 0% odds.

It was 0% but they threw the threat it at people who already proved they can do impossible things and break the laws of physics. So I would say it's still technically fair and I doubt they would throw this trap at opponent who couldn't be capable of breaking from it, even if it would be extremely hard or teoretically impossible - that would would be against their battle philosophy.

Prime32

2012-04-13, 07:50 AM

Except that they only did that because fear suppresses Spiral Power. In this battle their opponents don't have Spiral Power, so wouldn't they just go all-out?

Man on Fire

2012-04-13, 08:03 AM

Except that they only did that because fear suppresses Spiral Power. In this battle their opponents don't have Spiral Power, so wouldn't they just go all-out?

I assume that Anti-Spirals either register their opponents as Spiral Beings, even if it's not true, or stick to their favorite tactic in this Royale, it's more interesting this way.

Also, in Fremen vs Culture I vote for the Culture and in Fire Nation vs Skaven I don't know who to vote, would appricate more data about each.

Man on Fire

2012-04-16, 07:48 AM

Okay, I better vote off the Low-Level to bump this:
One vote for Skaven please.

Eldan

2012-04-16, 06:57 PM

The Skaven are a race of rat-human hybrids from the warhammer world.

Their basic traits are quick reflexes, rapid speed, endless numbers due to their breeding, high resistance to disease and poison, the ability to eat almost everything and chronic backstabbing.

They are organized in a society of clans, with the eleven greatest clans, their greatest prophet and symbolically their god, the Horned Rat, forming a ruling council. Despite this, there is constant infighting, between clans, inside clans, and between single members. They only cooperate when forced by a stronger Skaven.

Their power comes from the powers of the different clans: Clan moulder creates biological monstrosities, from the common Rat Ogres (ten foot tall, muscular rats with weapon implants instead of arms and the speed of a Skaven) and Giant Rats (rats the size of wolves) to Hellpit Abominations (house sized blobs of flesh with dozens of apendages) and countless more specialized creatures.
Clan Skryre creates technology based on Warpstone, which is basically magical plutonium: volatile, explosive, mutagenic and poisonous. They fire it out of muskets, use it to power laser cannon artillery, build explosives with and use it to shoot lightning. Their greatest achievement, probably, was building a kind of magical nuke that wiped out a small city. They also build various siege and support weapons like machine guns, flamethrowers and tunnel drills. They have invented a kind of video telephone that works on intercontinental scales.
Clan Eshin are ninjas. They can sneak, use poison and three weapons for figthing (one in their tails) and are masters of assassination. Some can teleport short distances.
Clan Pestilence do what their name says. They make custom plagues, among them the fantasy equivalent of the Bubonic. They also specialize in poison gas and fantatical troops that never break.
Finally, there's the Grey Seers, their mages. These can cause plagues, teleport, transform enemies into Skaven, shoot lightning, change the weather, cause earthquakes and a dozen other spells. They also summon daemons.

LordVader

2012-04-17, 10:57 AM

Fire Nation vs. Skaven is tough.

In actuality, Firebenders would be far more lethal and terrifying than they can possibly be presented as on a kid's show; one blast of fire and you're dead, or crippled for life at best. Additionally, Fire Nation has some damn impressive industry. Skaven have good stuff, but they don't have anything as impressive as the Fire Nation's giant zeppelins or steel battleships, at least not that I'm aware of.

However, personal-level Skaven battlefield weaponry is much stronger; Fire Nation still relies on catapults and ballistas, which are no match for Skaven Ratling Guns and the like. Your average Fire Nation soldier appears far more skilled than a Skaven warrior, though.

That said, Skaven magic is really strong, and high-power Skaven wizards are going to be much stronger than even the most powerful Firebenders. This is offset somewhat by the greater amount of Firebenders that're going to be present with the Fire Nation, but strong Grey Seers are still going to be terrifying.

Additionally, given the nature of Firebenders, it's quite possible that they could induce already-fragile Skaven industrial creations to blow apart due to heat, ammunition reactions, etc.

maglag

2012-04-17, 12:57 PM

Their basic traits are quick reflexes, rapid speed, endless numbers due to their breeding, high resistance to disease and poison, the ability to eat almost everything and chronic backstabbing.

You're forgeting two of their most important traits:
-Extreme Greed. There's hilarious tales of skaven attacks failing because the officers in charge diverted resources to their own pockets instead of properly preparing their troops.
-They have a policy of "safety last", not hesitating to try out dangerous tech/magic or plain suicide tactics at every oportunity if it means a short-term win. Most skaven will rather burn fast and brightly than slow and dim.

They are organized in a society of clans, with the eleven greatest clans, their greatest prophet and symbolically their god, the Horned Rat, forming a ruling council. Despite this, there is constant infighting, between clans, inside clans, and between single members. They only cooperate when forced by a strongermore cunning Skaven.

Fixed that for you. This isn't orks we're talking about. Skaven have been known to blackmail and set elaborate/crazy traps to get stuff done, like "Acept my terms or I drop this plague vial and we all die".

Their power comes from the powers of the different clans: Clan moulder creates biological monstrosities, from the common Rat Ogres (ten foot tall, muscular rats with weapon implants instead of arms and the speed of a Skaven) and Giant Rats (rats the size of wolves) to Hellpit Abominations (house sized blobs of flesh with dozens of apendages) and countless more specialized creatures.

Meh, not as much as specialized, but more like "let's stitch random things togheter and then point it at the enemy!". Their monsters are specially infamous for having redudant vital organs and thus just refusing to die.

Clan Skryre creates technology based on Warpstone, which is basically magical plutonium: volatile, explosive, mutagenic and poisonous. They fire it out of muskets, use it to power laser cannon artillery, build explosives with and use it to shoot lightning. Their greatest achievement, probably, was building a kind of magical nuke that wiped out a small city. They also build various siege and support weapons like machine guns, flamethrowers and tunnel drills. They have invented a kind of video telephone that works on intercontinental scales.

How could you not mention the DOOMWHEEL? A giant hamster wheel with giant rats running inside that runs over enemies while using the turning power to power up lasers?:smallbiggrin:

As for their biggest achievment, I would say it would be making a magic sniper rifle of such power and precision that dwarves refuse to admit it exists (because it's better than even their own masterwork cannons), even when their ranks are being cut down by it!

Clan Eshin are ninjas. They can sneak, use poison and three weapons for figthing (one in their tails) and are masters of assassination. Some can teleport short distances.

They also are the only skaven that seem to have anything resembling honor, as they exceptionally stick to their contracts.

Clan Pestilence do what their name says. They make custom plagues, among them the fantasy equivalent of the Bubonic. They also specialize in poison gas and fantatical troops that never break.

They also care even less about colateral damage, like throwing globes filled with poison into the midst of melee.

Finally, there's the Grey Seers, their mages. These can cause plagues, teleport, transform enemies into Skaven, shoot lightning, change the weather, cause earthquakes and a dozen other spells. They also summon daemons.
They also like to chew magic stones and ride in combat in giant magic bells.

Forum Explorer

2012-04-17, 03:24 PM

You guys also forgot the Skaven demons who are a manifestation of their god which they won' t go against and slaves. Countless slaves that they send in to die so you're bogged down in combat while they bombard you with magic and explosives.

LordVader

2012-04-17, 03:36 PM

Skavenslaves are pretty much going to be a non-factor; firebenders can wipe them out with extreme ease. Unprotected flesh and sheets of fire do not mix well.

maglag

2012-04-17, 03:50 PM

Skavenslaves are pretty much going to be a non-factor; firebenders can wipe them out with extreme ease. Unprotected flesh and sheets of fire do not mix well.

Well duh, that's the idea behind slaves! Each moment the benders spend burning slaves is another moment for the rest of the skaven to position their forces, blast away with their diabolic engines, shoot their guns, unleash their magics, etc. Skaven are fast. One can't really afford distractions when fighting them.

After all, skavens do have to face Bright Wizards and dragons and whatnot on their world. And they win a significant amount of those.

Man on Fire

2012-04-17, 03:55 PM

Skavenslaves are pretty much going to be a non-factor; firebenders can wipe them out with extreme ease. Unprotected flesh and sheets of fire do not mix well.

But they will still provide a distraction and waste their time and stamina.

LordVader

2012-04-17, 04:11 PM

But they will still provide a distraction and waste their time and stamina.

My point is that given how many Firebenders there will be, unprotected Skavenslaves are going to be wiped out pretty much instantaneously. It's not going to be much of a distraction, especially if you've got firebenders of the caliber of Ozai, Azula and Iroh on the battlefield, and the Fire Nation's war machines and artillery are still free to return fire at the Skaven war engines.

Skaven do face Bright Wizards and such, but a single Bright Wizard or two do not have anywhere near the pyrotechnical power boasted by an entire army of firebenders.

Selrahc

2012-04-22, 05:12 AM

My views on the fights. Not actually votes, since I save my votes in case of tie breaks.

13. Reapers (Mass Effect) vs. 26. Anti-Spirals (Gurren Lagann)

The Anti-Spirals are confusing... But nobody has really said anything at all about the Reapers. It sounds like the key to beating the Anti-Spirals is good tactics and strategy. The reapers sound more like the type to rely on overwhelming force than innovation.

24. Zerg (Starcraft) vs. 18. Time-Space Administration Bureau (Magical Girl Lyrical Nanaho)

The TSAB sounds more impressive, and is probably working from a much larger resource base.

11. The Black Knights (Code Geass) vs. 19. Dai Shocker (Kamen Rider Decade)

The Black Knights are a bunch of powerful and agile mecha. Dai Shocker seems to be a Power Rangeresque bad guy, reliant on big dumb monsters. Or at least that was my original thought, in looking over some videos on you tube it looks more like a smaller scale super-heroesque thing? I think the smart tactics of the Black Knights can win the day either way.

28. The Culture (Culture series) vs. 30. Fremen (Dune)

The Fremen weren't just in the first book of the Dune saga. After book 1, they took the place of the Sardaukar as the chief enforcers of imperial rule across a vast galactic empire. Ornithopters and Lasguns are nice pieces of kit. Training from Alia and Paul coupled with the natural Fremen skill makes them a terribly elite force. Assuming the Fremen main base is in a desert region of the battlefield with Arrakis worms, they're even going to be very hard to assault.

But yeah. The Culture does have this. What we've seen of Culture "ground forces" is pretty impressive. Combat Drones operating "Knife Missiles", which are essentially futuristic death robots with city levelling weapons form the biggest direct threat. Special Circumstances agents, super elite humans biologically and technologically enhanced, and put in awesome power suits form backup. Minds provide oversight and analysis capacities. They have raw power, from city levelling weaponry. They have information, being able to suffuse the atmosphere with information gathering nanites. They have mobility, with everything on the culture side being able to move at hypersonic speeds, shoot from miles away and teleport. They will fairly easily rip the Fremen to bits.

2. The Wulfenbach Empire (Girl Genius) vs. 5. The Illians (Fall From Heaven 2)

Tough fight, but I think I'd give the edge to the Illians. I think a lot of the forces brought to the battle by the Wulfenbachs will have a tough time operating in icy conditions, while the blizzards summoned up by the ice mages will wreak havoc on the airships of Wulfenbach. If the Baron was given notice of his opponent in advance, I have no doubt he'd whip together an army capable of stomping the Illians, but his more generalized forces, used to operating in temperate conditions.. will probably be smashed.

9. Skaven (Warhammer Fantasy) vs. 6. Fire Nation (Avatar)

Skaven. Pretty close fight, but I think the Skaven have the edge. The Skaven certainly will dwarf their opposition in raw numbers, and I think even typical Skaven infighting won't be enough to blunt that edge. The question of quality is more tricky... But I think it's close enough that the numbers will tell.

Man on Fire

2012-04-22, 05:50 AM

I'm convinced, one vote for the Ilians. And If I haven't already, one vote for the Culture.

Selrahc

2012-04-24, 02:25 PM

Hi-Power Results
Fight 1: Reapers 1-Anti-Spirals 3
Fight 2: Zerg 4-Time Space Administration Buereau 0
Fight 3: Black Knights 2-Dai Shocker 0
Fight 4: Culture 4-Fremen 0

Lo-Power Results
Fight 1: Illians-1 Wulfenbach Empire-1
Fight 2: Skaven-4 Fire Nation-0

Next set of matches to be posted shortly.
If you think the votes have been tallied incorrectly feel free to post or send me a PM.

Selrahc

2012-04-24, 02:33 PM

Hi-Power Round 1: Fights 5-8

Fight 5: Daelkyr (DnD: 3ed Eberron) vs. Cylons (Battlestar Galactica)
Fight 6: Coalition of Gears (Gears of War) vs. Free Planets Alliance (Legend of Galactic Heroes)
Fight 7: The Imperium (WH40K) vs. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga)
Fight 8: Principality of Zeon (Gundam) vs. The Empire (Star Wars)

Lo-Power Round 1: Fights 3-4
Fight 3: The Horde (Warcraft) vs. Kingdom of Elves (Shannara)
Fight 4: Black Company (Chronicles of the Black Company) vs. Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist)

Fights end on 8th May at 8pm GMT.
Please vote and discuss.

Man on Fire

2012-04-24, 04:29 PM

Fight 5: Daelkyr (DnD: 3ed Eberron) vs. Cylons (Battlestar Galactica)

On the one hand we have insane demigods who create all kinds of aberrations, on the other army of machines who can infiltrate and inpersonate other beings to the point that nothing can detect them and on these rulesets will probably use bunch of space fighters who probably can work in atmosphere and footsoldiers. I'll go with Daelkyr, I can see them, next to Zerg, as the ones who will defeat Anti-Spirals.

Fight 6: Coalition of Gears (Gears of War) vs. Free Planets Alliance (Legend of Galactic Heroes)

Need more information about Coalition and about Free Planets Alliance (through from what I saw in My Conquest is the Sea of the Stars, I'm initially on their side)

Fight 7: The Imperium (WH40K) vs. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga)

More informations about Team Rocket required - it really depends on their number and their Pokemons, otherwise I don't see how they're supposed to stop the Imperium with their Guard, Marines and Sisters of Battle.

Fight 8: Principality of Zeon (Gundam) vs. The Empire (Star Wars)

In any other circumstances I would say that Empire, because they conquered the Galaxy while Zeon struggles with one planet, but if they are on one planet then Empire is cut from their best toys like Star Destroyers. But on the ground? Well, Empire's ground forces are Stormtroopers. Zeon's ground forces use 18 meters tall giant robots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS-05_Zaku_I) that are much more versatile and agile than Empire's AT-AT and AT-TT. But they can be defeated with use of good tactics as proved in Gundam MS IGLOO 2 where we seen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSz7nKYNSTo) an unit of tanks leading unit of Zaku into a trap and destroying them all....losing every tank sans one in the process. Really, it depends on who each side has. Zeon among their forces has such aces as Char Aznable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Char_Aznable), Ramba Ral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramba_Ral#Ramba_Ral) and Norris Packard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norris_Packard#Norris_Packard) who are skilled pilots capable of giving their side large advantage, as well as loads of different units of various powers. However, if the Empire has 501st Legion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501st_Legion_(Star_Wars)#Rise_of_the_Empire) and Grand Admiral Thrawn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Admiral_Thrawn) I think they can win, especially with Thrawn in charge. So vote for the Empire.

Fight 3: The Horde (Warcraft) vs. Kingdom of Elves (Shannara)

The Horde. I don't care about who can what, in Elves vs Orcs my allegiances are and always will be with the Green.

Fight 4: Black Company (Chronicles of the Black Company) vs. Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist)

Vote for the Black Company. I would appricate the data about Amestris but, considering what I seen from FMA I can see how they would have an advantage - alchemists in this manga are quite powerful. The problem is that Black Company is an army accomodated to fighting enemy much stronger than them and defeating them with use of strategy, cunning, psychological warfare, gureilla tactics, ilusions and using everything they can find (Citizens on enemy territory? Recruit. Most dangerous place in the land? Hide in. Flying whales? We take two). Their main power is their creativity and adaptability, they can find a way to get out of any situation and defeat most of enemies - there are several ultra powerful wizards that they killed, including the equivalent of Morgoth in their setting, all by power of strategy, determination and military skill. Sorry, I'm pretty sure Amestrs are pretty cool army but Black Company is just good - not very powerful, but damn good at their job.

Forum Explorer

2012-04-24, 09:16 PM

Hi-Power Round 1: Fights 5-8

Fight 5: Daelkyr (DnD: 3ed Eberron) vs. Cylons (Battlestar Galactica): Don't really know anything about the Daelkyr but I'll side with the team who uses nuclear weapons liberally.

Fight 6: Coalition of Gears (Gears of War) vs. Free Planets Alliance (Legend of Galactic Heroes) Pass don't know much about either.

Fight 7: The Imperium (WH40K) vs. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga) bad luck Team Rocket but the Imperium has got this easily. Yes Pokemon are very very powerful but the Imperium can field far too much stuff that can be just as deadly. Lasguns would likely be useless against all but minor Pokemon. I can see this going Team Rocket's way initially but as reinforcements arrive they'll be doomed in the end.

Fight 8: Principality of Zeon (Gundam) vs. The Empire (Star Wars): The Empire has pretty crappy ground troops and hasn't really exhibited the best sense of using them. Against giant mechs? Not a chance.

Lo-Power Round 1: Fights 3-4
Fight 3: The Horde (Warcraft) vs. Kingdom of Elves (Shannara) The Elves physically aren't much more capable then a human in a fight, however they do have tons of allies and can expect nearly thousands (1-3 thousand perhaps) in reinforcements from dwarves, humans and trolls.

Fight 4: Black Company (Chronicles of the Black Company) vs. Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist): Familiarity vote plus faith that they've got what it takes. The alchemists have some very scary abilities which they have used to wipe out entire cities with. Alchemists can also remove many problems about supply lines and can even speed set up forts or break down walls with ease.

Man on Fire

2012-04-25, 06:44 AM

[SIZE="3"]
Fight 8: Principality of Zeon (Gundam) vs. The Empire (Star Wars): The Empire has pretty crappy ground troops and hasn't really exhibited the best sense of using them. Against giant mechs? Not a chance.

Normally I would agree, but as I said - all the Empire need is 501st Legion and Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Fight 3: The Horde (Warcraft) vs. Kingdom of Elves (Shannara) The Elves physically aren't much more capable then a human in a fight, however they do have tons of allies and can expect nearly thousands (1-3 thousand perhaps) in reinforcements from dwarves, humans and trolls.

Doesn't horde also have very large forces, cinsidering that they are composed from Orcs, goblins, taurens, trolls and whatever else they have?

Fight 4: Black Company (Chronicles of the Black Company) vs. Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist): Familiarity vote plus faith that they've got what it takes. The alchemists have some very scary abilities which they have used to wipe out entire cities with. Alchemists can also remove many problems about supply lines and can even speed set up forts or break down walls with ease.

The thing is, again, that the Company is used to finding a way to outsmart and kill ultra-powerful wizards. Some things the Taken or Dominator does in first three books or what Lords of Shadow does in later are quite insane and company still wins. They aren't stupid, they wouldn't go on open war with somebody stronger, they would do what they do best - gureilla tactics and psychological warfare - and attack openly once they're in clearly superior position.

The Glyphstone

2012-04-25, 07:07 AM

Is Thrawn really going to be that much of an asset? Yeah, he's the greatest memetic badass SW has ever produced, but he's also a naval commander, not a ground-forces general. His incomparable military genius is going to be severely hampered by the fact that he's employing troops and tactics he has absolutely no practical experience with.

Eldan

2012-04-25, 06:52 PM

Let's see.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi-Power Round 1: Fights 5-8

Fight 5: Daelkyr (DnD: 3ed Eberron) vs. Cylons (Battlestar Galactica)
In any fight that involves a DnD creature of about CR 20, I'm going with that. They can polymorph themselves and other things at will, that means they have access to pretty much all the weird stuff DnD ever invented.

Fight 6: Coalition of Gears (Gears of War) vs. Free Planets Alliance (Legend of Galactic Heroes)
No idea, don't know either.

Fight 7: The Imperium (WH40K) vs. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga)
Never read that Manga. That said, the Imperium is pretty insane. More information, please.

Fight 8: Principality of Zeon (Gundam) vs. The Empire (Star Wars)
Don't know the first.

Lo-Power Round 1: Fights 3-4
Fight 3: The Horde (Warcraft) vs. Kingdom of Elves (Shannara)
Psh. There are well-written and interesting elves in fiction. I somehow doubt they are in Shannara. Plus, I was a horde player in WoW back in the first few months after it came out.

Fight 4: Black Company (Chronicles of the Black Company) vs. Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist)
No idea.

Forum Explorer

2012-04-25, 06:55 PM

Normally I would agree, but as I said - all the Empire need is 501st Legion and Grand Admiral Thrawn.

Doesn't horde also have very large forces, cinsidering that they are composed from Orcs, goblins, taurens, trolls and whatever else they have?

The thing is, again, that the Company is used to finding a way to outsmart and kill ultra-powerful wizards. Some things the Taken or Dominator does in first three books or what Lords of Shadow does in later are quite insane and company still wins. They aren't stupid, they wouldn't go on open war with somebody stronger, they would do what they do best - gureilla tactics and psychological warfare - and attack openly once they're in clearly superior position.

501st was defeated by Ewoks aided by a rebel crack team. Thrawn wouldn't likely be in command of them anyways.

I don't know what the Horde's numbers come out to fluff wise but they've never seemed to have a massive military in the games at least

Guerilla tactics doesn't equal a victory particularly against a foe who can alter the environment to suit their needs (sometimes) and can effectively carry nigh infinite supplies. They also don't really care about preserving the native population either. And that's just the alchimists. The basic troops are highly trained and well armed with basic firearms. There is also a lot of them.

Man on Fire

2012-04-25, 08:28 PM

Fight 8: Principality of Zeon (Gundam) vs. The Empire (Star Wars)
Don't know the first.

Pricipality of Zeon is an allied force of space colonies from anime Mobile Suit Gundam. Their basic grunt forces are Zaku - 18 meters (as in larger than many buildings) tall giant robots piloted by single person usually armed with lightaxes and machine guns adapted to their size and they have variety of different, more powerful, units.

Guerilla tactics doesn't equal a victory particularly against a foe who can alter the environment to suit their needs (sometimes) and can effectively carry nigh infinite supplies. They also don't really care about preserving the native population either. And that's just the alchimists. The basic troops are highly trained and well armed with basic firearms. There is also a lot of them.

So like Company's usual enemies? Okay, their enemies don't hae firearms, but usually have powerful wizards who can do basically anything like melting a canyon and turning it into giant bowl of soup made from melted rocks, metal and enemy army. Their enemies usually have greater supplies and advantage of numbers and training. Company is used to finding weak points of these enemies and defeating them with cunning and strategy, taking advantage of their mistakes, einvorment, situation, natives (they like to recruit them). In the battle with them the deciding factor is the leadership - who leads Amestris? What kinds of strategists they are? How prone to mistakes they are? How far sighted they are? How capable of understanding the enemy they are? Those will be deciding factos because every mistake their enemy makes, Company will use against them.

maglag

2012-04-26, 02:12 PM

Hi-Power Round 1: Fights 5-8
Fight 5: Daelkyr (DnD: 3ed Eberron) vs. Cylons (Battlestar Galactica)

Cylons had trouble dealing with a bunch of normal humans, while the Daelkyr bring borked D&D magics and all kind of monstruosities on the fray. Abominations all the way!

Fight 6: Coalition of Gears (Gears of War) vs. Free Planets Alliance (Legend of Galactic Heroes)

Legend of Galactic Heroes, since their tech seems to be more advanced.

Fight 7: The Imperium (WH40K) vs. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga)

Manga version? Then Team Rocket hell yeah! Here's what they've been known to do:
-Develop drugs that allow pokemons to instantly evolve in combat
-They captured the three legendary birds of the 1st generation.
-Lt.Surge (military), Blaine(SCIENCE!), Koga(ninja) and Sabrina(pyshic/psyker) are all members of Team Rocket.

Not to mention, in the manga pokemons are nasty. Earthquake does reshape the land, charizardbreath burns down buildings, a gyarados can level cities when in a bad mood. And they've got plenty of numbers. Ok, the IoM will probably bring bigger numbers with IG, but there's plenty of pokemon for area effects. The imperial tanks, SM and other ground forces can all be dealt relatively easily by burrowing pokemon opening fissures under them, then some weather control (legendary birds and dragon-pokemon can do it) to take down the air suport.

Fight 8: Principality of Zeon (Gundam) vs. The Empire (Star Wars)

This comes down to mecha battle between Zakus and the Empire walkers. And Zeon is the specialist on that field here.

Lo-Power Round 1: Fights 3-4
Fight 3: The Horde (Warcraft) vs. Kingdom of Elves (Shannara)

Thanks to WoW, the Horde has been known to take on the gods themselves, including cosmic entities. They may not have much on the way of sheer numbers, but they have plenty of named champions each worth an army.

Fight 4: Black Company (Chronicles of the Black Company) vs. Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist)

Hmm, don't know much about either.

hunt11

2012-04-26, 03:07 PM

I am only going to comment on the sides that I actually know.

The Imperium vs. Team Rocket

This fight is a complete joke. I like how there are high power and low power fights to try and create an actual fair fight, but in this matchup the fight will end very quickly and decisively in The Imperium's favour. The amassed Titan legions will have the fire power to wipe out Team Rocket in an instant. The combined Psyking might of all the Psykers at said fight would end the fight almost as fast as the Titans can. If for some reason that doesn't work then The Imperium could drown Team Rocket with wave after wave of soldiers.

Edit: For some of the factions we may want to make it clear just what they can bring to the fray, or else we need to add a third category to this fight because it seems hardly fair to chuck a world power against the full might of a space empire.

Top cat

2012-04-26, 03:13 PM

Fight 7: The Imperium (WH40K) vs. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga)
I'd just like to say, this match sounds pretty hilarious.

maglag

2012-04-26, 03:17 PM

Edit: For some of the factions we may want to make it clear just what they can bring to the fray, or else we need to add a third category to this fight because it seems hardly fair to chuck a world power against the full might of a space empire.

Check the 1st post rules. Each side has 1 year to rally forces.

Since this is the Imperium of "Self-Crippling Bureaucracy" Man, they'll be lucky if they can get a titan squad delivered in that time frame, and drowing your enemy in guardsmen is out of the question because once the fight starts, no reinforcments for anybody.

hunt11

2012-04-26, 03:53 PM

Before I continue this argument, I would like to know how much do you actually know about the Imperium of Man?

Forum Explorer

2012-04-26, 05:58 PM

Check the 1st post rules. Each side has 1 year to rally forces.

Since this is the Imperium of "Self-Crippling Bureaucracy" Man, they'll be lucky if they can get a titan squad delivered in that time frame, and drowing your enemy in guardsmen is out of the question because once the fight starts, no reinforcments for anybody.

Reinforcements are allowed as I assume they would be part of supply lines which are allowed.

Now I think you are underestimating the Imperium and missing Team Rocket's big weakness. The trainers do not have any protection to prevent you know, getting shot. Sure a few psychic pokemon would help but that's about it. Plus I think pokemon would basically be the equivalent to death world creatures or deamons in the 40K universe, so nasty and tough but ultimately defeatable.

Also Team Rocket does not get Blaine. He quit before the story even began didn't he?

Prime32

2012-04-26, 06:19 PM

Reinforcements are allowed as I assume they would be part of supply lines which are allowed.
. .

8. Force composition: Forces will be assembled by giving both factions one year of notice, and reasonable inference as to what could be fielded under those conditions. Reasonable allies are permissible. No reinforcements will be allowed after the battle begins.

Selrahc

2012-04-26, 06:28 PM

Reinforcements are allowed as I assume they would be part of supply lines which are allowed.

Reinforcements aren't covered in that. Which is actually spelled out explicitly, although not in the same rule.

By supply lines I'm talking about ammunition, food, and all the other essentials that armies run through at an astronomical rate. This is essentially a "Sealed Box" game, but I'd like to remove the headache of worrying which army is better at ammo conservation or needs less food per soldier or whatever.

I'd also say that any weapon that is very rare and valuable within the setting, probably isn't covered within the supply line rule.

In any fight that involves a DnD creature of about CR 20, I'm going with that. They can polymorph themselves and other things at will, that means they have access to pretty much all the weird stuff DnD ever invented.

I'd prefer it if things were based more on fluff than hypothetical potential from exploiting rules systems.

Eldan

2012-04-26, 07:17 PM

Well, the Daelkyr have still, canonically, created the Illithid and the Beholders, amongst other assorted nasties. That gives them plenty of magical artillery of the highest grade. They can still assume the shape of any D&D creature, and transform everyone they meet into everything else too, apart from just turning them to stone.

maglag

2012-04-27, 05:46 AM

Now I think you are underestimating the Imperium and missing Team Rocket's big weakness. The trainers do not have any protection to prevent you know, getting shot. Sure a few psychic pokemon would help but that's about it.

Lt.Surge has been known for fashioning himself an armor of magnemites and a voltorb bazooka. Heck, he's a military specialist, that confirms that he's been in the war, so if they're going for direct conflict instead of their usual covert operations, I believe he would make sure team rocket members are protected with whatever's available.

There's also plenty of examples of the most resistant pokemons using their own bodies to shield the trainers, or faster ones simply moving their trainers out of the path of danger.

Plus I think pokemon would basically be the equivalent to death world creatures or deamons in the 40K universe, so nasty and tough but ultimately defeatable.

Daemons are "defeatable" because eventually they're linked to a sorceror/portal/psyker to keep them stable on the material. Destroy it and they're gone. Pokemon have no such weakness. Even if you kill their trainer, you're now dealing with an angry rampaging monster.

Not to mention, when the IoM "wins" against a daemon incursion, is usually because they sent wave after wave after wave of forces. They have no such luxury here.

Also, tyranids. Giant monsters with special powers crushing the forces of the IoM since Rogue Trader itself.

Finally, earthquakes again. How does the IoM massed ground forces deal with them exactly?

Also Team Rocket does not get Blaine. He quit before the story even began didn't he?
Hmm, you seem to be right on that one.

Man on Fire

2012-04-27, 08:21 AM

Does anybody else gets the info about new posts in this thread but don't see posts in question? Okay guys, after posting I see them.

Selrahc

2012-04-27, 09:34 AM

Fight 5: Daelkyr (DnD: 3ed Eberron) vs. Cylons (Battlestar Galactica)

The Cylons have a powerful air force, some significant numbers and modern equivalent weapon systems. They're up against powerful magic creatures.

Interestingly though, I think a lot of the powerful attacks of the Mind Flayers and Eye Tyrants will be almost worthless here. Cylons as machines, don't have minds to flay. They don't have magic to be nullified by the main eye beams, and would be immune to death effects, mind spells, negative energy and a whole host of other effects that the Beholders throw out. Of course a good old disintegrating beam will still work, but that's not really more scary than the weapons the cylons have. Since the Daelkyr main battle strength comes from Illithids and Beholders, I think they're probably up against a pretty bad draw here.

I'm not really sure though... the Daelkyr might still be able to muster up force enough to win.

Fight 6: Coalition of Gears (Gears of War) vs. Free Planets Alliance (Legend of Galactic Heroes)

I'll confess to pretty much complete ignorance on these two factions. Sorry. If it comes to a tie break, I'll try to read up enough to cast a semi-informed decision.

Fight 7: The Imperium (WH40K) vs. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga)

So the question to me here first is numbers. Just how many Team Rocket are there? From my research into them, it looks like there are never more than a few dozen deployed at once. Probably at *maximum* around 500-1000 members? It's a crime syndicate, up against a galactic empire.

And yes, the Imperium is choked by bureaucracy and long response times, but we've seen multiple examples of it putting together large forces in short order. Armageddon, Medusa V, The Black Crusades... all of these contain the Imperium rallying dozens of Space Marine Chapters and thousands of Guard Regiments to a cause within a quick enough timeframe to relieve defenders. I think we can expect the Imperium ground forces involved here to be of roughly equal magnitude.

As for their nature? The Imperium does have basically everything a modern military has. Things like aerial support does exist, and Lightning Fighters and Marauder Bombers seem to be pretty nice pieces of kit, to say nothing of Thunderhawks. It's not a big element in the lore because almost everything aerial support gets used for can be accomplished by a space fleet.

How does the Imperium deal with earthquakes? By sending elite forces to burrow down into tunnels to kill people. It's done it before. How does it deal with city levelling legendaries? Through application of powerful elite forces, or super heavy tanks and walkers.

When it comes down to it, there are probably at maximum a few thousand pokemon fighting tens of millions of Imperium forces. I seriously doubt the Pokemon can win from that situation.

Fight 8: Principality of Zeon (Gundam) vs. The Empire (Star Wars)

I've never been terribly impressed with the ground forces of the Empire. The only thing they'll have going for them is resources. I'm sure the Empire can throw a lot more mud at the wall here. And perhaps all those stormtroopers armed with homing bazooka blasters will tip the balance in the big fights between mecha and AT-AT's.

Fight 3: The Horde (Warcraft) vs. Kingdom of Elves (Shannara)

The Horde seem to be a scarier foe, all told. They've had an incredibly brutal history, but seem to have come out of it all the stronger. Powerful elite forces and good generals.

Fight 4: Black Company (Chronicles of the Black Company) vs. Amestris (Full Metal Alchemist)

I'd appreciate hearing more about the Black Company. And Amestris too actually... On the face of it Amestris is sounding more powerful.

maglag

2012-04-27, 01:33 PM

Interestingly though, I think a lot of the powerful attacks of the Mind Flayers and Eye Tyrants will be almost worthless here. Cylons as machines, don't have minds to flay. They don't have magic to be nullified by the main eye beams, and would be immune to death effects, mind spells, negative energy and a whole host of other effects that the Beholders throw out. Of course a good old disintegrating beam will still work, but that's not really more scary than the weapons the cylons have. Since the Daelkyr main battle strength comes from Illithids and Beholders, I think they're probably up against a pretty bad draw here.

Enter psionic mindflayers, that get full psionics instead of just some mental tricks. Pshychic reformation allow them to cherry-pick their powers in the fly.

And yes, the Imperium is choked by bureaucracy and long response times, but we've seen multiple examples of it putting together large forces in short order. Armageddon, Medusa V, The Black Crusades... all of these contain the Imperium rallying dozens of Space Marine Chapters and thousands of Guard Regiments to a cause within a quick enough timeframe to relieve defenders. I think we can expect the Imperium ground forces involved here to be of roughly equal magnitude.

Except those are all central points of the imperium, and thus get a lot more priority on the distress channels, not to mention having massive garrisons on them because they know they're gonna be attacked sooner or later. The place where they're fighting is some random deserted planet, so requisition priorities will be much lower.

As for their nature? The Imperium does have basically everything a modern military has. Things like aerial support does exist, and Lightning Fighters and Marauder Bombers seem to be pretty nice pieces of kit, to say nothing of Thunderhawks. It's not a big element in the lore because almost everything aerial support gets used for can be accomplished by a space fleet.

Yet still fascinating how around half the IoM armory consists of melee weapons, and how dudes with axes still pose a major menace.

How does the Imperium deal with earthquakes? By sending elite forces to burrow down into tunnels to kill people. It's done it before. How does it deal with city levelling legendaries? Through application of powerful elite forces, or super heavy tanks and walkers.

You mean how the tyranids tear trough Forge Worlds by burrowing trough fortifications while the imperial forces can't do anything better than wait for them to come out again?

You can't send elite forces down into tunnels if they're not there until the last moment.:smallwink:

When it comes down to it, there are probably at maximum a few thousand pokemon fighting tens of millions of Imperium forces. I seriously doubt the Pokemon can win from that situation.

Numbers are the main advantage of the IoM, but again, it's kinda absurd the chosen battlefield here would receive the same military priority as Cadia "We're near a hole to hell" and Armageddon "We were attacked by a bloody daemon primarch and the greatest ork Warboss in known history".

Misery Esquire

2012-04-27, 02:01 PM

Numbers are the main advantage of the IoM, but again, it's kinda absurd the chosen battlefield here would receive the same military priority as Cadia "We're near a hole to hell" and Armageddon "We were attacked by a bloody daemon primarch and the greatest ork Warboss in known history".

Even if we assume an unimportant amount of Priority assigned to this battle, the "standard" reaction of the Imperium is still 1+ Million Guardsmen, who will be carrying enough firepower between them and thier supporting units to kill even the most threatening of Pokemon. It's a simple disparity of numbers, even considering the lower side of Imperial responce.

Selrahc

2012-04-27, 02:24 PM

Enter psionic mindflayers, that get full psionics instead of just some mental tricks. Pshychic reformation allow them to cherry-pick their powers in the fly.

And that is how the Mindflayers of Eberron work?
Listing random stuff that can be done within the DnD mechanics doesn't impress me as an argument. Particularly when you get into particularly gamist abstractions like cherry picking powers. Concrete examples of wars fought, foes beaten or actions performed are a lot more impressive. I suppose I'd even be slightly impressed by examples outside of the Eberron setting, since Mindflayers from say Forgotten Realms are going to share certain fundamental similarities.

Statblocks don't impress me. Rules tricks don't impress me. Stuff that has canonically been done carries weight.

Although hey, I'm not actually allowed to vote unless things hit tie break. This is just my opinion on what I think is a good and convincing argument.

Yet still fascinating how around half the IoM armory consists of melee weapons, and how dudes with axes still pose a major menace.

I don't think "Dudes with axes" pose a major menace. I think power armoured dudes with chain axes pose a menace, because they can ignore most squad level fire power.

Viable melee troops in 40K are all either tough enough to tank their way to the foe, or fast enough to avoid being shot at. Or both.

40K *does* have a fairly extensive and well documented air force capacity though. Just because you don't like Khorne Berserkers doesn't mean that it stopped existing. :smalltongue:

You mean how the tyranids tear trough Forge Worlds by burrowing trough fortifications while the imperial forces can't do anything better than wait for them to come out again?

Honestly, I think it depends heavily on the available forces. The Imperium has quake guns of its own. It has conversion beamers. It has advanced burrowing equipment. Forcefield generators. But your average guardsman or even Space Marine squad won't have access to any of that.

I'm sure the Pokemon certainly could kill some people. I just don't think they're some sort of unstoppable force that the Imperium couldn't counter. It has beaten tunelling foes before, just as it's also lost to them. In a battle where the pokemon are outnumbered potentially 100000 to 1 or more... I don't think it's nearly a good enough tactic.

Except those are all central points of the imperium, and thus get a lot more priority on the distress channels, not to mention having massive garrisons on them because they know they're gonna be attacked sooner or later. The place where they're fighting is some random deserted planet, so requisition priorities will be much lower.

As I've stated in the rules, this counts as an "Important" battle. Both sides would really prefer to win very much. Their motivations for thinking this are left up to the imagination, but you can assume it's probably about more than just capturing the battlefield.

Istari

2012-04-27, 06:37 PM

Forum Explorer

2012-04-28, 01:34 AM

Team Rocket does have a fair number of Legendary Pokemon that could help turn the battle. Mewtwo would be a very strong force as would the three legendary birds. Depending on when this takes place they could have access to a fair number of other pokemon which would be a huge help.

they never had mewtwo. He broke out really soon after his creation. Legendary Birds sure including that weird fusion form of them (which didn't seem to be that much stronger IMO) However the Imperium has psykers which the Rockets don't really have a defense against. Besides Sabrina but she can't be everywhere.

Selrahc

2012-04-28, 08:37 AM

Amestris vs. the Black Company.

Amestris seems to be a pretty big deal. A bigger deal than I remembered. A domestic population of 50 million, a tech level slightly above that of WW1 Europe, a battle hardened military force that has been in conflict over 50 years of war, and elite troops with powerful magical alchemy.

If we compare it to WW1 Germany, which it is based upon, it is likely to have around 700000 riflemen under arms as a low end estimate. Machine guns, early tanks and a rudimentary airforce for support, before even taking into account the State Alchemists.

And the State Alchemists are nice and impressive. I do remember that from watching the show... but being able to jury rig up defensive positions in a flash, or drastically rearrange terrain is scary as hell. Particularly with offensive abilities like flash fire or gigantic spikes where the only really nice defence is to get out of sight. The State Alchemists are high ranking and will generally be excellently supported by the rest of the military, being the fulcrum around which an offensive action is built.

And it all seems to work quite well. The military of Amestris is hardened from conflict against more numerous and rich foes on all sides. It seems to have an impressive record of combat, being in the middle of an era of expansion and conquest.

I'm struggling to see the Black Company as victorious, no matter how elite a force they maintain. It *does* sound like the Company is used to facing what I would term impossible odds and emerging victorious. But I think this is even beyond anything that they have faced. They have far too big a force arrayed against them, and they can't count on the foe making big blunders. I'm sure they'd achieve several heroic victories, but in the end they'd be overwhelmed.

Mx.Silver

2012-04-28, 02:14 PM

Fight 7: The Imperium (WH40K) vs. Team Rocket (Pokemon Advance Manga)

Now I will admit that I don't know anything about Pokemon Advance. This does not matter however, because I'm pretty sure that Team Rocket do not have ready access to weaponry that could deal with a couple of Imperial warships in orbit. And as long as the Imperium has access to warships (which they will) there is really nothing Team Rocket can do to stop them from just reigning flaming death from space onto varies cities until Team Rocket surrender. I'm not talking Exterminatus here, just regular orbital bombardments (which the Imperium's navy can and will quite happily use) will be enough to basically kill any real chance Team Rocket have of winning. This if before we get into just how stupidly outgunned and outnumbered Team Rocket would be in a ground war.
There's simply no contest. It's just too vast a difference in power.

I can't really comment on anything else at the moment.

Selrahc

2012-04-28, 02:18 PM

This does not matter however, because I'm pretty sure that Team Rocket do not have ready access to weaponry that could deal with a couple of Imperial warships in orbit.

No space based weapons systems. The combatants are transported to a neutral location with whatever planet side forces they can muster.

Mx.Silver

2012-04-29, 02:33 AM

No space based weapons systems. The combatants are transported to a neutral location with whatever planet side forces they can muster.

Damn, can't believe I missed that in the rules. Now I just feel silly :smallredface:

Not that this would mean the Imperium would be any more likely to lose, mind you. Sure, a few legendary Pokemon would be reasonably powerful, but not enough to compensate for the Imperial Guard's numbers, weapons tech advantage and potential access to things like Baneblades or Deathstrike Missile Launchers.

Eldan

2012-04-29, 07:19 PM

And that is how the Mindflayers of Eberron work?
Listing random stuff that can be done within the DnD mechanics doesn't impress me as an argument. Particularly when you get into particularly gamist abstractions like cherry picking powers. Concrete examples of wars fought, foes beaten or actions performed are a lot more impressive. I suppose I'd even be slightly impressed by examples outside of the Eberron setting, since Mindflayers from say Forgotten Realms are going to share certain fundamental similarities.

I must admit that the only mindflayers I know anything about are those of
Planescape.

Which are a time-travelling interstellar empire who almost ended the blood war, built at least one ringworld-like structure around a star, tried to extinguish all suns to create eternal darkness, invented psionics and created several custom-made slave races.

And I don't think anything of that applies to Eberron.

Man on Fire

2012-04-29, 08:34 PM

Amestris seems to be a pretty big deal. A bigger deal than I remembered. A domestic population of 50 million, a tech level slightly above that of WW1 Europe, a battle hardened military force that has been in conflict over 50 years of war, and elite troops with powerful magical alchemy.

If we compare it to WW1 Germany, which it is based upon, it is likely to have around 700000 riflemen under arms as a low end estimate. Machine guns, early tanks and a rudimentary airforce for support, before even taking into account the State Alchemists.

And the State Alchemists are nice and impressive. I do remember that from watching the show... but being able to jury rig up defensive positions in a flash, or drastically rearrange terrain is scary as hell. Particularly with offensive abilities like flash fire or gigantic spikes where the only really nice defence is to get out of sight. The State Alchemists are high ranking and will generally be excellently supported by the rest of the military, being the fulcrum around which an offensive action is built.

And it all seems to work quite well. The military of Amestris is hardened from conflict against more numerous and rich foes on all sides. It seems to have an impressive record of combat, being in the middle of an era of expansion and conquest.

I'm struggling to see the Black Company as victorious, no matter how elite a force they maintain. It *does* sound like the Company is used to facing what I would term impossible odds and emerging victorious. But I think this is even beyond anything that they have faced. They have far too big a force arrayed against them, and they can't count on the foe making big blunders. I'm sure they'd achieve several heroic victories, but in the end they'd be overwhelmed.

Alternatively Company could mantain a Phyrric Victory, knowing their adaptability. There is also the fact that both fractions have time to prepare and in Company's case it's always working on their advantage - in Books of South (Shadow Games and Dreams of Steel) they needed, if my memory is correct, a month to prepare defenses of disorganized city where until then military was controled by various religious fractions and noble houses, and not only reshape the population into real army that was not only able to defend the city but counterattack and take over another, very large and highly defended city, badly wounding one ultra-powerful wizard in the process. And even when they lost the first battle to defend them, their remmants were able to defend the city for a month (or maybe it were two months?) against two much larger armies, while other remmants managed to regroup and gather enough forces to counterstrike.
And if we would have to go with raw power then Company had some pretty impresive allies through the first three books, like some of the Taken - Shapeshifter and Soulcatcher, both quite powerful - walking large scale anti-magic field, local equivalent of Sauron who was, de facto, their boss and such things as teleporting talking rocks and fricking flying whales who can spit thunderbolts and have squadrons of flying mantas at their command each.

Selrahc

2012-05-08, 02:19 PM

Hi-Power Results
Fight 5: Daelkyr-3 Cylons-1
Fight 6: Free Planet Alliance-1 Coalition of Gears-0
Fight 7: Imperium-3 Team Rocket-1
Fight 8: Principality of Zeon-2 Empire-1

Lo-Power Results
Fight 3: The Horde-2 Kingdom of Elves-1
Fight 4: Black Company-1 Amestrist-1

Selrahc

2012-05-08, 02:27 PM

Hi-Power Round 1, Fights 9-12
9. Dominion (Star Trek) vs. Black Hole Army (Advance Wars)
10. Shadows (Babylon 5) vs. Aesir (Scion)
11. Decepticons (Transformers) vs. ZAFT (Gundam)
12. Gilgamesh Confederation (Armoured Trooper VOTOMS) vs. Empire of the Rising Sun (Command and Conquer)

Lo-Power Round 1, Fights 5-6
5. Spartan Army(300) vs. Hobgoblin Army (Order of the Stick)
6. Kushan Empire (Berserk) vs. Draconians of Teyr (Dragonlance)

Fights end on May 22nd at 8:00pm GMT.
Please vote and discuss.

Man on Fire

2012-05-08, 03:52 PM

9. Dominion (Star Trek) vs. Black Hole Army (Advance Wars)

I'll have more output on BHA once I'll tak with my Advanced Wars expert, but on the ground they have the advantage - we're talking here about group who managed to conquer five continents, while fighting against five militaristic nations at the same time and their leader builds things like giant missle that can blow up half of the world or device to summon meteorites to wherever he wants them.

11. Decepticons (Transformers) vs. ZAFT (Gundam)

Well, I need to double-check that one. On the one hand Decepticons have conquered one planet already and are army of giant robots capable of taking form of any unit with four gigantic units made from combining several smaller(Britucus, Devastator, Predaking, Menasor) out from which one once made lake-sized hole with one punch, as well as two city sized robots. on the other hand ZAFT has mechas who are bigger than most decepticons have variety of weapons and let's be honest, Decepticons are lead by Megatron, guy who keept Starscream around after many betrayals.

12. Gilgamesh Confederation (Armoured Trooper VOTOMS) vs. Empire of the Rising Sun (Command and Conquer)

Gilgamesh is a multiplanet military federation whose main force is composed out of 4-meters tall AT units - mechans on rollerblades who are like tanks in terms of power but capable of using different weapons and more universal - they can fight in any terrain. They can deploy loads of them at short time - at the series finale they deployed probably something like thousands of units. The yalso have thendency to just don't play nice - if they send somewhere their Red Shoulder Unit, it means they want everything destroyed. They also showed some hover transporters and heavy artilery, enough of it to
shoot down the most powerful battleship in the galaxy
What does the Empire has?

Lo-Power Round 1, Fights 5-6

5. Spartan Army(300) vs. Hobgoblin Army (Order of the Stick)

While Spartans are impressive, heroic and very organized, I go with Hobgoblins - much bigger, great organization, backed up by powerful Lich Sorceror who provides them with supply of undeads, creative leader and strategic genius who also has an acces to powerful magic and actually gets creative with it (mothercopulating Titanium Elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html)!). We need to remember that Spartans' accoplishments were partially because of territorial advantage and dumb pride of Xerxes, who wanted them surrender to him more than victory - Hobgoblins can neutralize former with strategy and magic and doesn't have problem of latter with their leaders.

6. Kushan Empire (Berserk) vs. Draconians of Teyr (Dragonlance)

Kushan Empire - They have battle elephants, army of demonic soldiers transformed by unholy forces and magicians who specialize in sending spirits into nearby creatures, turning them into rampaging monster completely at their control, so they can just come up with turning crocodiles into pseudo-lizardmen and things like that, and some of them have showed control over forces of nature. And their emperor can turn into gigantic living mist and control weather, striking people with lightnings. it took literal army of demons to defeat them and they would probably still won if it wasn't for their leader and his insane powers.

Istari

2012-05-08, 04:21 PM

I'll throw in a vote for Amestrist if a tie breaker is needed.

Agreed on the Black Hole Army

Empire of the Rising Sun's primary advantage is its maneuverability, its vehicles can often adapt to multiple terrain types (Its tanks for example can move fine in the water). They have a pretty high tech level with lasers and nanotech. Their heavy hitters include a skyscraper sized robot that realistically needs large amounts of artillery to bring down and a giant floating naval base.

Link to a much more comprehensive description. (http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Empire_of_the_Rising_Sun)

Forum Explorer

2012-05-09, 12:36 AM

9. Dominion (Star Trek) vs. Black Hole Army (Advance Wars) I hate Star Trek.
10. Shadows (Babylon 5) vs. Aesir (Scion) Don't know either
11. Decepticons (Transformers) vs. ZAFT (Gundam): This would be a pretty even fight but I think ZAFT has the numbers, skill, and tactical expertise to win.
12. Gilgamesh Confederation (Armoured Trooper VOTOMS) vs. Empire of the Rising Sun (Command and Conquer) Don't know either

Lo-Power Round 1, Fights 5-6
5. Spartan Army(300) vs. Hobgoblin Army (Order of the Stick) Hobgoblins are much tougher to fight then Persians plus there would be high level undead.

6. Kushan Empire (Berserk) vs. Draconians of Teyr (Dragonlance): Partially loyalty vote, part familiarity vote, part think they would win. The Draconians are magic resistant, have lots of spell casters and plenty of crazy abilities to counter with. They are also highly trained and can operate on minimal supplies. They are very inventive and are capable of many different feats of engineering, (best example is where they made a fake dragon capable of crude flight all the while practically rebuilding a fort in less then a week. Oh and they were practically under siege so they had minimal resources.). They even invented a crude bomb. They are all glide capable except for those who fly. Some can take the shape of whoever they kill for infiltration purposes while others have naturally poisonous venom. They are naturally militaristic and are pretty loyal to one another. Also when they die they harm their enemy in some way depending on subrace. (Some turn to stone trapping the weapon that killed them, Some explode, some turn into the appearance of who killed them, some dissolve into a pool of acid, and others go into a flaming berserk rage which finally ends in a big detonation.

Man on Fire

2012-05-09, 05:29 AM

In battle between Gilgamesh and Empire of Rising Sun I think I'm going with Rising Sun - they have much bigger variety of units, many of their weapons are quite powerful, they dominate on sea and aren't so bad in sky and their strategy is going to be quite efficient against enemy whose only tactic we seen was "rop as many ATs on them as you can". They just mave bigger variety of weapons and units, while Gilgamesh has strength in numbers.

LordVader

2012-05-09, 01:19 PM

Dominion weaponry is way more advanced than Black Hole Army weaponry. Dominion wins, no question.

Black Hole Army makes use of modern solid ammo; Dominion has extremely high-powered energy weapons available on a massive scale.

Chen

2012-05-09, 01:26 PM

Yeah I think the Dominion has this one licked. They Gem Hadar soldiers have personal stealth/cloaking fields, wield extremely powerful disruptors and are pretty damn good fighters hand to hand as well. The fact they have force fields and transporters at their disposal really makes it a non-event to beat standard bullets and the like.

Istari

2012-05-10, 08:20 AM

Man on Fire

2012-05-10, 08:31 AM

And if Dominion would gain too much of an upper hand, Strumm would probably blow their half of the planet.

The Glyphstone

2012-05-10, 08:48 AM

And if Dominion would gain too much of an upper hand, Strumm would probably blow their half of the planet.

Pretty sure Rule #4 prohibits that. The objective is worth fighting for, but not worth suicide or MAD.

Chen

2012-05-10, 10:07 AM

Black Hole has the personal advantage though, considering they can ship an entire army to remote battlefields in a matter of day, as long as they can destroy their opponents at all they'll win with overwhelming numbers.

They're given a year to make preparations for the fight and they get no reinforcements. Considering the Dominion controls almost an entire quadrant in the galaxy I imagine they can probably field a much bigger force than the Black Hole Army unless my understanding of their scale is wrong. Aren't they based on a single planet?

Eldan

2012-05-10, 06:50 PM

Sort of. Its said a few times that their commanders are likely aliens, but its never much discussed.

Istari

2012-05-10, 06:58 PM

They're given a year to make preparations for the fight and they get no reinforcements. Considering the Dominion controls almost an entire quadrant in the galaxy I imagine they can probably field a much bigger force than the Black Hole Army unless my understanding of their scale is wrong. Aren't they based on a single planet?

Black Hole has infield production though. Able to construct all their troops and vehicles if they have a factory on short notice. Yes that doesn't make much sense, but that's how it works in the game.

Mx.Silver

2012-05-11, 05:24 AM

Sort of. Its said a few times that their commanders are likely aliens, but its never much discussed.

Sturm's explicitly an alien, but most of their other COs seem to be human, although it's entirely possible some of them are artificial people (given their cloning tech). It's never entirely clear what the ratio of extra-terrestrials to humans is in their armies though.

Chen

2012-05-11, 08:07 AM

Black Hole has infield production though. Able to construct all their troops and vehicles if they have a factory on short notice. Yes that doesn't make much sense, but that's how it works in the game.

Is that simply gaming abstraction or do said factories actually allow creation of vehicles in actual short time spans? Not that it really matters I don't think they get to bring their factories along.

Istari

2012-05-11, 12:47 PM

Is that simply gaming abstraction or do said factories actually allow creation of vehicles in actual short time spans? Not that it really matters I don't think they get to bring their factories along.

Hard to say, in the second game they had large amounts of supplies they were transporting to the factories in the countries they invaded and sent units out of there.

The gaming abstraction is a very good point. Strictly by game terms they have superior production to anything physically possible, how is that effected by the constraints of the battle?

Chen

2012-05-11, 01:46 PM

The gaming abstraction is a very good point. Strictly by game terms they have superior production to anything physically possible, how is that effected by the constraints of the battle?

Well I haven't played the games but they're turn based or real time based? I mean take Starcraft for example. Clearly it takes longer than a minute (or whatever the time it is) to build a Battlecruiser. So if the Terran Confederacy were in the fight we clearly wouldn't say they could be building a Battlecruiser every minute. I imagine similar rules would need to apply to the Black Hole Army, unless they really do produce military hardware at a very fast rate (say via a replicator or some such).

Mx.Silver

2012-05-11, 05:23 PM

Well I haven't played the games but they're turn based or real time based? I mean take Starcraft for example. Clearly it takes longer than a minute (or whatever the time it is) to build a Battlecruiser. So if the Terran Confederacy were in the fight we clearly wouldn't say they could be building a Battlecruiser every minute. I imagine similar rules would need to apply to the Black Hole Army, unless they really do produce military hardware at a very fast rate (say via a replicator or some such).
They're turn based. Standard troop deployment/production 'in-field' (for all armies) takes a turn to produce a unit but said unit can't take any actions until it's next turn. The unit producing bases can be captured by infantry and can't build anything if another unit is occupying the space they're in.
Black Hole, however have access to special factory buildings (in the campaign) which produce units that can act immediately and which are pretty much impervious to capturing attempts (and most forms of attack). Taking them out requires targeting their supply lines (giant, semi-indestructible pipelines) so they can't keep producing troops. Exactly how fast the troop production is I don't know, but it's definitely much faster than any of the other nations can manage (hence why they were able to overrun them as quickly as they did).

It's also worth noting that Black Hole have access to a number of quite dangerous defensive installations, ranging from stationary canons to multi-directional laser turrets (which can hit both land and air units). There's also the Ooze things, but I think those are only likely to be a factor if it's Von Bolt's Black Hole rather than Sturm's.

LordVader

2012-05-11, 06:32 PM

Infield production doesn't help you when the enemy's basic infantryman carries a weapon capable of blowing apart your most advanced armored vehicles and has defensive forcefields.

No way in heck the Black Hole Army can beat the Dominion. Remember, Advance Wars' tech level is more or less that of modern-day militaries.

Throw in the complete and utter superiority of Dominion air cover, and the Black Hole Army is just going to be wiped off the map. Numbers can only take you so far, and while the Dominion won't have spaceships, their atmospheric craft are going to be a) shielded and heavily armored, b) incredibly maneuverable by comparison to the traditional aircraft of the BHA, and c) armed with energy weaponry.

Sure, the BHA was able to prosecute a war against five nations simultaneously, but they had both the element of surprise and a tech edge.

The Orange Star Army, which is quite literally the US Army circa 1980, is able to take on the Black Hole Army in the field and win, often against superior numbers.

Man on Fire

2012-05-11, 08:01 PM

Remember that Black Hole also have lasers. And ooze monsters that destroy everything they touches. And this is Sturm we're talking here about, he will get his toys and start summoning up meteorites on the enemy, I think that will hurt even Dominion.

LordVader

2012-05-11, 08:38 PM

Dominion aircraft can easily intercept meteoroid strikes; Star Trek fighter weaponry is very powerful.

And yes, Black Hole has lasers in the form of giant immobile cannons, but Dominion energy weapons are going to be much stronger, much more efficient, much more rapidly firing, much more widespread, and much more portable.

Again, the Black Hole Army is defeated by foes which, in technological terms, range from 1930s Japan to 1980s America. The technological disparity between them and the Dominion is immense.

Selrahc

2012-05-13, 10:19 AM

9. Dominion (Star Trek) vs. Black Hole Army (Advance Wars)

I'm more convinced by the arguments for the Dominion.

10. Shadows (Babylon 5) vs. Aesir (Scion)

The Shadows are an advanced alien species, capable of a variety of hi-tech tricks. Their "line trooper" is a large insectile organism. They seem to be very resilient, taking powerful particle gun fire to kill. Perhaps scariest of all, their common trooper will be invisible to the naked eye, requiring telepathy, magic or advanced sensors to find. They have a fondness for unleashing engineered super plagues to devastate their foes. The Shadows have some telepathic secrets, and have the ability to create an aura of dread. As a multiplanetary empire, they should be able to muster up large numbers of forces for the battle. In particular, they have various servitor races most notably the Drakh. All told, the Shadows make a decent showing amongst the sci-fi groups, with a few nice unique features.

The Aesir are the Norse gods. A lot of things from mythology will have fairly direct analogues, but they're from a game called Scion. Since they were my nomination I'll give them an explanation, which will be a bit long winded.

Firstly, I think the Aesir actually have enough information to go on, unlike the other Scion factions. They have had three fairly direct treatments on how they handle modern large scale warfare, the first in Scion:God, the Second in Scion:Ragnarok and the third as the backers of the Axis in the World War 2 section of the Players Companion. The Aesir are a heavily militarized pantheon, with armies and military structure at play beneath their godly might.

What are their forces?

Firstly, they have the Einherjar. The greatest soldiers in history plucked from the field of conflict by Valkyries to battle eternally in the hereafter. These aren't a bunch of viking berserkers either, the Valkyries have kept up consistent recruitment of soldiers from across the world for the entirety of human history, and the Einherjar use modern tactics and weaponry, honed by constant practice. The Einherjar are empowered by the Eitr of the gods, becoming physically superhuman and divinely loyal. Their numbers are unclear, but I would estimate somewhere around a million. This is basically the main warhost of the Aesir, and will commonly be led by the Valkyries if the gods aren't taking command.

Secondly, they have the Immortals. Enthralled titanspawn, allied lesser gods like the Vanir and monstrous creatures like the dragons. These creatures will be less numerous, but each one will be fairly powerful. Also falling into this category will be any hosts of Frost Giants or other Jotun that can be bribed to battle for the gods, Dwarven, Troll and Fae armies, and probably a smattering of demigods and scions from non-norse pantheons convinced to join the battle for glory or friendship. This entire group will be less loyal to the Aesir than to their own sense of self preservation and reward, but represent a lot of raw power.

Thirdly, if they can convince Hel, they will have the Deadhosts. A gigantic horde of undead vikings, riding spectral flying longboats and led by monsters. As a source of raw numbers, this would be fantastic for the Aesir. I'm not sure if they could convince Hel to send her armies to fight however.

Lastly, the Gods themselves. I'm sure not all the gods would take the field, since doing so can be a risk, and many of the gods just aren't that interested in direct confrontation. But those who do wield immense power. The most powerful acts the gods can do is to unleash "avatars". Avatars are fundamental aspects of the universe, and when a god channels it there is almost nothing they can't do(as long as it is compatible with the aspect being channelled). The powerscale of the avatars is not infinite, but it is immense. Even operating at their baseline non-avatar state, the Gods are powerful indeed, with tidal waves, hurricanes, earthquakes, plagues and more being at their beck and call. Logistically they have the power to teleport large crowds, and magically gather information on their enemies. One of the more insidious threats of the gods is their divine charisma. Humanoid species might be enthralled by the supernatural attractiveness or persuasive qualities of the gods.

The Aesir are one of the more powerful "Fantasy" armies I can think of.

As far as the match-up goes? I would have to go with the Aesir. Almost everything the Shadows do can be negated by the power of the gods. Things like super plagues and invisibility are gimmicks that the shadows won't be able to use, due to a little magic intervention. Force vs. force, I think the Aesir are stronger.

11. Decepticons (Transformers) vs. ZAFT (Gundam)

Big robot clash!

12. Gilgamesh Confederation (Armoured Trooper VOTOMS) vs. Empire of the Rising Sun (Command and Conquer)

Gilgamesh Confederation seems like a much scarier proposition. A militaristic, multi-planet grouping. Their regular troops are power armoured/small mechs with a heavy machine gun. Easy to mass manufacture, easy to maintain in the field. That's a pretty nice core to a force... and if you have 100 planets to base from rather than one small empire on one planet...

I think The Rising Sun has several nice tech edges, but overall their average troop quality is lower. And their war machines aren't good enough or numerous enough to carry the day.

5. Spartan Army(300) vs. Hobgoblin Army (Order of the Stick)

Ultimately, the high level cleric and high level Sorceror could break the Spartan line even if there wasn't a hobgoblin army in play.

The Hobgoblins are in with a good shot anyway. As long as their two commanders don't order any suicidal charges, they could winkle the much smaller Spartan host out of defensive terrain with catapults, and swarm them, for a very low hassle victory.

Even assuming a host of Athenians as backup, and assuming Xykon and Recloak contribute nothing whatsoever, this is easily one for the Hobgoblins.

6. Kushan Empire (Berserk) vs. Draconians of Teyr (Dragonlance)

The Draconians seem to be the epitome of mid-level DnD. A bunch of draconic soldiers, breathing fire, flying, much stronger and tougher than normal humans. Decent enough... but they're just a single city state, and not particularly numerous.

The Kushan Empire seems like they've got some pretty nice line troopers as well, with demonic enhancements. A little less elite than the common Draconians, but not utterly eclipsed. But they have a much larger support network and weight of numbers. When you start adding on powerful beasties to spearhead assaults... I think the Kushan have a distinct advantage.

Chen

2012-05-14, 07:52 AM

9. Dominion (Star Trek) vs. Black Hole Army (Advance Wars)

I agree with most of the arguments made above, they seem to blow them out of the water.

Don't really know enough about the other matchups to put any input in.

Selrahc

2012-05-22, 04:05 PM

Hi-Power Round 1, fights 13-16

Fight 13: Mobile Infantry (Starship Troopers) vs. Combine (Half-Life 2)
Fight 14: Star Empire of Manticore (Weberverse) vs. Cybermen (Doctor Who)
Fight 15: SHIELD (Marvel) vs. Covenant (Halo)
Fight 16: Green Lantern Corps (DC) vs. The Baatezu (Dungeons and Dragons: 2ed, Planescape)

Lo-Power Round 1, fights 7-8

Fight 7: The forces of Sauron (Lord of the Rings) 16. Seanchan Empire (Wheel of Time)
Fight 8: Westeros (A Song of Ice and Fire) vs. Death Eaters (Harry Potter)

Man on Fire

2012-05-22, 04:21 PM

And where are the results for previous round?

Selrahc

2012-05-22, 04:35 PM

Coming tomorrow.

The Glyphstone

2012-05-22, 04:38 PM

Is that the Starship Troopers movie or the Starship Troopers book? Cause one of those is a definite shoo-in.

Misery Esquire

2012-05-22, 04:43 PM

Fight 7: The forces of Sauron (Lord of the Rings) 16. Seanchan Empire (Wheel of Time)

Don't really know enough about the rest (Or at least, I know about half of the matchup and wouldn't want to misrepresent the other half for some), but this one can be a tough fight or easy victory for Seanchan... depending if Sauron is included in his faction. (Without the Unkillable Except MacGuffin Trait, obviously)

Selrahc

2012-05-22, 05:02 PM

Is that the Starship Troopers movie or the Starship Troopers book? Cause one of those is a definite shoo-in.

Book.
Book Mobile Infantry were the forerunner to a lot of tropes within military sci-fi. They're an interesting take on future warfare even if things get a little fascistic in their overtones. They're certainly much more worthy of the spot than the relatively generic forces from the movie.

depending if Sauron is included in his faction. (Without the Unkillable Except MacGuffin Trait, obviously)

Saurons forces are intended to be those that participated in the War of the Ring at the end of the third age. Pretty much anything he has control over during the War of the Ring is fair game I think.

Man on Fire

2012-05-22, 05:17 PM

I realized I haven't voted still in Decepticons vs ZAFT. I think I'll have to go with the ZAFT, Decepticons have terrible leadership and that's worth any technological advantage.

Selrahc

2012-05-23, 03:44 PM

Results for last fights

Dominion 3 vs. Black Hole Army 1
Shadows 0 vs. Aesir 0
Decepticons 0 vs. ZAFT 2
Gilgamesh Confederation 0 vs. Empire of the Rising Sun 1

5. Spartan Army 0 vs. Hobgoblin Army 2
6. Kushan Empire 1 vs. Draconians of Teyr 1

Current fights.

Fight 13: Mobile Infantry (Starship Troopers) vs. Combine (Half-Life 2)

The MI modus operandi is based around highly elite forces. They are a military unit with standards basically on par with elite forces like Marines or SAS troopers, except they have an entire united Earth population as a recruiting pool, and a lot of people who didn't make the grade acting as support staff.

The way they fight is to jet around at high speeds in power armour, launching missiles. If the situation is dire, they start using mininukes. Any single one of them should be a match for even a fully kitted out Gordon Freeman, and there are several hundred thousand.

The support staff for the MI includes some fairly interesting things. Genetically engineered psychic dogs are used for recon. Human psychics and clairvoyants act as support. So they should have fairly good information gathering.

I think this is a fairly straightforward stomp for the MI. The Combine notably have trouble dealing with elite well armed guys in power armour.

Fight 14: Star Empire of Manticore (Weberverse) vs. Cybermen (Doctor Who)

I've read two examples of Star Empire military ground combat. The defence against the natives in book 1, and the assault on the Masadan compound in book 2. Given the insane tech pace in Webers stories, I'm not sure that's even comparable anymore.

Their army, or at least their naval marines, are built along similar lines to the MI, but on a weaker scale. They have power armour, outfitted with missiles. The armour has a combat mode and a stealth mode, but also notably has a sharply limited field life if running at maximum capacity. In book 1 and book 2 "combat mode" was basically an autowin against the forces the Manticorans were fighting, with no casualties received. Rockets are probably just about capable of hurting them, but certainly nothing lesser.

Cybermen... Cybermen are one of those odd Doctor Who factions. They have energy blasters. A couple of million Cybersoldiers during their invasion of earth. They occasionally have big scary deadly robots. They can teleport.

Fight 15: SHIELD (Marvel) vs. Covenant (Halo)

The climax of the Avengers movie is oddly relevant here. And I think a similar result would unfold.

Fight 16: Green Lantern Corps (DC) vs. The Baatezu (Dungeons and Dragons: 2ed, Planescape)

Iiinteresting. Devils vs. high level adventurers! One of the big advantages of the devils is an immunity/resistance to non-magical weaponry, but it's pretty well established that GL rings count as magical.

7200 odd Green Lanterns will be heavily outnumbered by whatever forces the Hells send however. And while Lemures and Imps can be safely ignored, the tougher devils will absolutely be troublesome. Erinyes infiltrators moving within the GL's to erode morale and sap their *will* could be trouble.

Fight 7: The forces of Sauron (Lord of the Rings) 16. Seanchan Empire (Wheel of Time)

I think I'd bet on the Seanchan, but I don't really know enough about them.

Fight 8: Westeros (A Song of Ice and Fire) vs. Death Eaters (Harry Potter)

This is a real quality vs. quantity fight. Or it would be, if the wizards were made to fight fair. The big trouble is that Westeros is highly succeptible to a decapitation stroke. Kill the lords, and the smallfolk melt away. A couple of apparations and assassinations, a few Imperio inspired revolts and Westeros is going to start tearing its own armies apart.

The Glyphstone

2012-05-23, 04:05 PM

Hi-Power Round 1, fights 13-16

Fight 13: Mobile Infantry (Starship Troopers) vs. Combine (Half-Life 2)

Curbstomp in favor of the MI. They use tactical micro-nukes in infantry-scale engagements, nothing the Combine has except a Strider would be able to take an MI trooper on, and there are more MI than there are Striders.

Fight 14: Star Empire of Manticore (Weberverse) vs. Cybermen (Doctor Who)

Considering one of these was my suggestions, it's hard to not be biased. I'll try for a rundown though:

-The depictions of the Marine forces in the first two books are probably accurate through most of the series's run - 90-odd percent of the insane tech race involves spaceships and their weapons, not much translates to ground combat. So what we have is a force of disciplined, elite soldiers that are like the MI but weaker, as Selrahc said - ordinary humans in what amounts to Space Marine-scale power armor; regular Manticoran Army troops and Marines outside their battle armor probably wear anti-ballistic fiber. Their primary weapons are "pulsers", effectively man-portable semi or fully automatic mass driver that sling 4-5mm explosive-tipped needles via gravity manipulation (at 2,000m/s, apparently). A pulser hit to a hand is known in-universe to tear off a man's arm, so that's a significant step up from 20th-century firearms. On the squad-support level, they have missiles, tribarrels (gatling gun versions of the aforementioned pulsers), plasma rifles and cannons in handheld and fixed sizes, vehicle-mounted pulser cannons (10000 shots/second at maximum RoF) and air support in the form of armored flying vehicles (though no orbital bombardment, as per the rules). No ground-scale energy fields or shields, though.

Cybermen...they sound like nasty enemies from what I read, but I don't know enough Wholore to judge if they can take on the Marines. Their armor was proof against 20th-century guns, but might not suffice here. On the other hand, they use energy weaponry as their standard loadout, so only the Marines in battle armor will be protected from the death ray blasts. Overall, I'd say it depends on how many Cybermen can make it to the fight; they can kill Marines, but the Marines can kill them just as easily.

Fight 15: SHIELD (Marvel) vs. Covenant (Halo)

Selrahc's probably right here too - this would look like the Avengers final fight.

Fight 16: Green Lantern Corps (DC) vs. The Baatezu (Dungeons and Dragons: 2ed, Planescape)

Well, the Baatezu do technically have infinite troops, but they're limited to how much they can pack into their 'deployment zone' and aren't allowed reinforcements. If they're allowed to use Summoning powers, then I'm giving it to them, as they can drown the Lanterns in disposable troops that never actually die before going in for the kill. Otherwise, the Lanterns can do the same thing right back with green-light constructs from a safe defensive position.