[3.5] Ray of Enfeeblement Shenanigans

[Torvon]

Hey there!

I'm playing a lvl 10 factotum, pretty MAD, some archery, mostly staying in the back.
I still use ray of enfeeblement a lot.

GOAL: get this spell off twice in one round, reliably reducing an enemy's STR by 2d6+10

PROS
1) No saving throw & no attack role required
2) d6+5 STR damage is quite considerable
3) STR damage is bad for brute enemies, but also for rogues and casters because - with a good roll - I can reduce them to 0 STR
4) I can get through spell resistance at level 12 with my factotum ability.

CONS
1) As factotum, it doesn't matter if I memorize a lvl1 spell or a (maximum level - 1level) spell. Currently I have 4th level spells, and instead of ray of enfeeblement I could just as well memorize a 3rd level spell.
2) Spell resistance, which I can get around if I want to.

I wonder if one could abuse this spell a bit more. With a pearl of power (1), I could cast this spell twice quickly after each other. Factotum gives me a standard action for 3 inspiration points, so I could even cast it twice in one round (how long does it take to activate the pearl of power? It doesn't say in DMG).

Keep in mind that factoti cannot memorize the same spell twice.

Are there any other ideas? Maybe Empower Spell?

Thanks ;)
T.

[Diarmuid]

First, one of your Pros is wrong. RoE does require a Ranged Touch attack to effect the target.

As for getting 2d6+10 out of it in a given round, Split Ray is +2 Spell Level and adds another ray. Requires another Ranged Touch, but those generally arent that hard.

[Bahamut Omega]

By the RAW, you can't reduce an enemy to 0 strength with Ray of Enfeeblement. You could get it down to 1 and use poison or a curse to drop it the rest of the way. Also a pearl of power just lets you recall the spell, not cast it automatically.

By the core rules, the only way to get this spell off twice in one round and reliably do what you want would be to cast it with the metamagic feats quicken and maximize spell. I'd recommend you get a rod with one of those feats and learn the other. Using two 4th level spell slots with maximized ray of enfeeblement and a rod of quicken spell, you should be able to fire off two in one round for 22 points of strength damage.

You do need to be sure to hit, you might help yourself out with that by picking less nimble foes or taking the feat Weapon Focus (Ray). I would also take Spell Penetration to up the odds of getting through SR.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ray of enfeeblment does not do Str damage, it applies a penalty to Strength. It can't reduce Strength below 1. And according to the "same effect, different strengths" rule, two ray of enfeeblement spells won't even stack. The target would simply take the worst of the two penalties.

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

So, your idea is pretty hosed. Sorry.

[Bahamut Omega]

Unfortunately, you're right Killian. I've always been irked that might've been the intent, but one of my biggest gripes with the core rules is that they bend over backwards to ensure players can't stack buffs, but then don't bother to do the same for debuffs like Ray of Enfeeblement. Simply making the penalty a profane penalty or something of that nature would make all the difference to me as a player who is occasionally on the receiving end of those effects.

[RndmNumGen]

Can't be done.


A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject’s Strength score cannot drop below 1.

penalty != damage. Only the highest penalty would apply, they wouldn't stack. So if you fired off two Rays, with both hitting, with one doing 6 and another doing 10, the target would only be down 10 strength, not 16.

[ericgrau]

It also can't reduce a str score below 1. Try empowering it instead for (1d6+5)x1.5 strength penalty. From there you might stack on waves of exhaustion/fatigue. Or switch targets on your ray of enfeeblement. An average of -12.5 is already pretty brutal on melee since it gives a -6 to hit and a -6 or -9 to damage.

While strong this is what keeps ray of enfeeblement from being broken. If you want something broken that will stack and get the foe down to zero, try another spell or psionic power outside the player's handbook. Shivering touch is the worst offender. Beware of flying DMGs. Ego whip is milder with save for half but once augmented it's still pretty bad even when you do pass the save b/c it's still stackable damage and half is sometimes enough even before the 2nd ego whip.

[Keld Denar]

If you need more unique spells, check out Escalating Enfeeblement in Complete Mage. It's the same 1d6+1/2 CL, but if the target is already enfeebled or exhausted, it escalated to 1d10+1/2 CL. Worst case, you have a clone of RoE that let's you prep the spell twice as a Factotum. Best case, you can overlap it with RoE for a bigger effect, or better yet, use it as a followup for Ray of Exhaustion. The penalties from RoE and EE won't stack, but the penalties from RoExhaustion and Escalating Enfeeblement will.

As far as using RoE to reduce a foe's Str to one, then use 1 more point to drop them, I don't think it works like that. There isn't much in the way of rules to guide us here, but there is a FAQ entry that states that a creature can choose the order of application of effects on it. Thus, if he always applies RoE last, it wouldn't factor in to causing the creature to be paralysed unless the other source of Str reduction was high enough on its own to cause the paralysis, at which point, why do you need RoE?

[eggs]

As mentioned, the premise here is off. RoE doesn't work that way.

What you can do is stack Ray of Enfeeblement with other strength penalties like Fatigue/Exhaustion.

For context, an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement+Split Ray of Exhaustion combination imposes a Strength penalty of 20 with no save. Pretty much anything hit with that is going to be past its Heavy load, just from clothing or armor.

Beside its obvious effects, this denies a target its dex to AC, prevents it from moving (5ft as a full round action anyway), imposes a -6 armor check penalty on attacks and skills, disables any Strength-dependent feats like Power Attack (or any PrCs that depend PA) and probably forces targets to drop tools like holy symbols or spell components.

[killem2]

I think parboil with the same shennigans and spellwarpers could do what you are trying to do much easier :)

[Red_Dog]

*eggs you swordsage you ^^*

A creature with Str 1 can carry 7-10lb as a heavy load...

How much equipment an average wizard carries? O_0 How about rouge?

Rouge has [usually] a mithril breast plate = 15lb. That's right there is too much.

So yeah... getting a non str rouge to 1Str means that she/he'll be spending next round, stripping naked [how long does it take to strip naked anyway?O_0] just to be able to run away.

In fact just normal cloth range in that spectrum[travelers cloth is 5lb already].

So yeah, getting someone there is far from "just dmg penalty".

And if you follow an advise of Keld Denar, this means, your big bad monster won't be able to lift his sword, let along swing it. ^^

P.S. *EDIT*
Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement+Split Ray of Exhaustion combination
Holy poop in a bucket... I JUST processed this combo after re-reading Ray of Exhaustion... This... just so much This. My Lich is now going to use this. He already has Split Ray, all I need is to squeeze Ray of Exhaustion into the spell list. Than, load up the Arcane Fusion Shot gun. By the by, can use use metamagically altered spell in Arcane Fusion?[since arcane fusion is for sorcs, and sorcs don't prep, can it be done? I always wondered]. Pretty much even w/ just lesser rod of Quicken, short of high SR or abnormally high touch armor or immunities, nothing is going to save one from this...

[Unusual Muse]

Sudden Maximize might be useful, though it's only once per day.

[some guy]

I just remembered Fell Weaken from Libris Mortis, but alas, it too gives a strength penalty and not strength damage.

However, it is a pretty cheap metamagic feat. It's just one spell slot higher. Am I wrong in thinking that, I don't know, a Fell Weakened Magic Missile as a level 2 spell for a level 3 wizard for giving 2 creatures a -4 to their strength without saves or attack rolls would be a pretty sweet deal?
It seems like a good deal, but I'm not really that optimized.

[nedz]

The Combo Ray of Enfeeblement followed by Shadow Spray [Level 2 SpC] can work and is very cheap. Shadow Spray has a nice daze effect and does 1d4 Str damage. If the opponant has dumped Str and has a low Fort save you can hose them; sound like any wizards you might know perhaps :smallcool:? Low level ones only I suspect.

[Torvon]

People.

Holy smoking cow. Thank you.

Let's see:

(1) Split Ray + Ray of Exhaustion
Split Ray of Exhaustion probably doesn't work. Split Ray of Enfeeblement neither.
a) "You can split spells that specify a single target and make a ranged touch attack. Only spells that deal damage can be affected by this feat."
Ray of Exhaustion doesn't do "damage", and therefor doesn't qualify for the feat, right? (same for enfeeblement)
b) Ray of Exhaustion: I am not sure if the creature has a save in case it is fatigued. Does it?
"The subject is immediately exhausted for the spell’s duration. A successful Fortitude save means the creature is only fatigued.
A character that is already fatigued instead becomes exhausted."

(2) Factoti & metamagic feats:
Being a lvl 10 factotum, I can have 4 spells, only one being allowed to be 4th level. But that does mean I could memorize 3 lvl1 spells 2 spellslots higher using a metamagic feat, right?

(3) Shadow Spray
We're level 10, so low level spells against saves + spell resistance will never land. And I only have 4 spells per day as factotum. Not worth it.

(4) Fell Weaken
Nice, but doesn't stack with R of Enfeeblement imo.

(5) Empower Spell
Nice idea. +2 metamagic feat. My factotum could only use it on first level spells, it would work on the ray, but the question is whether this STR shenanigans is really worth it. I'm pretty feat starved (having some archery feats and an upgraded familiar).

(6) Escalating Enfeeblement
Sounds lovely, combined with RoE.

[Torvon]

People.

Holy smoking cow. Thank you.

Let's see:

(1) Split Ray + Ray of Exhaustion
Split Ray of Exhaustion probably doesn't work. Split Ray of Enfeeblement neither.
a) "You can split spells that specify a single target and make a ranged touch attack. Only spells that deal damage can be affected by this feat."
Ray of Exhaustion doesn't do "damage", and therefor doesn't qualify for the feat, right? (same for enfeeblement)
b) Ray of Exhaustion: I am not sure if the creature has a save in case it is fatigued. Does it?
"The subject is immediately exhausted for the spell’s duration. A successful Fortitude save means the creature is only fatigued.
A character that is already fatigued instead becomes exhausted."

(2) Factoti & metamagic feats:
Being a lvl 10 factotum, I can have 4 spells, only one being allowed to be 4th level. But that does mean I could memorize 3 lvl1 spells 2 spellslots higher using a metamagic feat, right?

(3) Shadow Spray
We're level 10, so low level spells against saves + spell resistance will never land. And I only have 4 spells per day as factotum. Not worth it.

(4) Fell Weaken
Nice, but doesn't stack with R of Enfeeblement imo.

(5) Empower Spell
Nice idea. +2 metamagic feat. My factotum could only use it on first level spells, it would work on the ray, but the question is whether this STR shenanigans is really worth it. I'm pretty feat starved (having some archery feats and an upgraded familiar).

(6) Escalating Enfeeblement
Sounds lovely, combined with RoE.


ta-ta
T.

[Torvon]

People.

Holy smoking cow. Thank you.

Let's see:

(1) Split Ray + Ray of Exhaustion
Split Ray of Exhaustion probably doesn't work. Split Ray of Enfeeblement neither.
a) "You can split spells that specify a single target and make a ranged touch attack. Only spells that deal damage can be affected by this feat."
Ray of Exhaustion doesn't do "damage", and therefor doesn't qualify for the feat, right? (same for enfeeblement)
b) Ray of Exhaustion: I am not sure if the creature has a save in case it is fatigued. Does it?
"The subject is immediately exhausted for the spell’s duration. A successful Fortitude save means the creature is only fatigued.
A character that is already fatigued instead becomes exhausted."

(2) Factoti & metamagic feats:
Being a lvl 10 factotum, I can have 4 spells, only one being allowed to be 4th level. But that does mean I could memorize 3 lvl1 spells 2 spellslots higher using a metamagic feat, right?

(3) Shadow Spray
We're level 10, so low level spells against saves + spell resistance will never land. And I only have 4 spells per day as factotum. Not worth it.

(4) Fell Weaken
Nice, but doesn't stack with R of Enfeeblement imo.

(5) Empower Spell
Nice idea. +2 metamagic feat. My factotum could only use it on first level spells, it would work on the ray, but the question is whether this STR shenanigans is really worth it. I'm pretty feat starved (having some archery feats and an upgraded familiar).

(6) Escalating Enfeeblement
Sounds lovely, combined with RoE.


ta-ta
T.

[eggs]

a) "You can split spells that specify a single target and make a ranged touch attack. Only spells that deal damage can be affected by this feat."
As a quick note, that was dropped from the feat in 3.5.

As far as Fatigue/Exhaustion, it's one of the stacking effects like Shaken/Frightened/Panicked - RoE makes a target Fatigued if they succeed on a save, and that stacks with existing Fatigued effects like normal.

So basically if they're already Fatigued (from a different spell/effect or from a different Ray of Fatigue), there's no save.

Fell weaken is a different effect than the rays, so it should stack by RAW. But if you don't want to go there, that would certainly be reasonable.

Empower can be useful at higher levels, and works nicely with Metamagic Spell Trigger on things like Rays of Stupidity or Escalating Enfeeblements. But it's not a clear must-have, and Fonts of Inspiration put a pretty high opportunity cost on filler feats.

[Sturmcrow]

P.S. *EDIT*
Holy poop in a bucket... I JUST processed this combo after re-reading Ray of Exhaustion... This... just so much This. My Lich is now going to use this. He already has Split Ray, all I need is to squeeze Ray of Exhaustion into the spell list. Than, load up the Arcane Fusion Shot gun. By the by, can use use metamagically altered spell in Arcane Fusion?[since arcane fusion is for sorcs, and sorcs don't prep, can it be done? I always wondered]. Pretty much even w/ just lesser rod of Quicken, short of high SR or abnormally high touch armor or immunities, nothing is going to save one from this...

Or have some Shadow buddies to just tap anyone hit by the Rays for Strength damage.


Though now I am thinking of a Wandificer build with a Ray of Enfeeblement Wand and a Ray of Exhaustion Wand, pew pew

[Ernir]

This thread is in dire need of someone mentioning the Ray of Clumsiness. My favorite spell to combo with Escalating Enfeeblement.

EDIT:


Empower can be useful at higher levels, and works nicely with Metamagic Spell Trigger on things like Rays of Stupidity or Escalating Enfeeblements. But it's not a clear must-have, and Fonts of Inspiration put a pretty high opportunity cost on filler feats.
Metamagic Wand Grip (CMage) can help a bit with that.

[BerronBrightaxe]

Depending on what you are encountering, you could use the feat Chain spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/chain-spell--314/) Boost your casterlevel for more awesomeness :smallbiggrin:

considering Ray of Enfeeblement and Escalating Enfeeblement, don't deal actual damage you apply the full penalty on all the targets (presuming you hit them all). Ray of Exhaustion will work too, considering the first one will make them atleast Fatigue, the second one exhausted no matter the save.

If you can find a way to convert touch-spells to reach-spell (like the arcane/divine reach from a archmage/heirophant), you could chainspell 'bestow curse' or ' touch of idiocy'. Or chain 'Benediction' for all your friends :smallcool:

anyway.. have fun 'using' all the fun stuff :smallbiggrin:

[Keld Denar]

I don't think you can chain a ray spell. Chain Spell only applies to targetted spells. Rays aren't targetted. They have an Effect: Ray line, rather than a target line. You can cast a ray spell on someone with total concealment, like someone who is invisible to you, simply by firing into their square an praying. You can't cast a targetted spell on someone you don't have Line of Sight to. Thus, rays are not targetted, which means they can not be affected by Chain Spell.

[killem2]

I don't think you can chain a ray spell. Chain Spell only applies to targetted spells. Rays aren't targetted. They have an Effect: Ray line, rather than a target line. You can cast a ray spell on someone with total concealment, like someone who is invisible to you, simply by firing into their square an praying. You can't cast a targetted spell on someone you don't have Line of Sight to. Thus, rays are not targetted, which means they can not be affected by Chain Spell.

So rays target just an area not the object in the area?

[Torvon]

{{scrubbed}}

Ocular Spell looks pretty strong. Do I understand correctly that e.g. touch of idiocy becomes a ray with this?

[Ernir]

So rays target just an area not the object in the area?

No, rays are not area spells either. They are effect spells.

This difference should be obvious after reading the "aiming a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell)" rules.

[Venger]

http://dndtools.eu/feats/lords-of-madness--72/ocular-spell--2079/

Ocular Spell looks pretty strong. Do I understand correctly that e.g. touch of idiocy becomes a ray with this?

Ocular Spell is indeed quite strong and arguably worth the +2 spell adjustment (divine metamagic notwithstanding)

the answer to your question is yes. yet another reason never to take reach spell.

[BerronBrightaxe]

No, rays are not area spells either. They are effect spells.

This difference should be obvious after reading the "aiming a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell)" rules.

I didn't know that, thnx... It makes chain spell a lot less interesting.. I presume that divine/arcane reach is considered a 'Effect' and not a 'Target' (I don't have the books with me to check).

[Ernir]

I didn't know that, thnx... It makes chain spell a lot less interesting.. I presume that divine/arcane reach is considered a 'Effect' and not a 'Target' (I don't have the books with me to check).

No, those class features (I presume you're talking about the Archmage and Heirophant abilities?) give the spell a ranged touch attack in place of a melee touch attack, but do not remove its status as a targeted spell. Not all RTAs are rays.

[killem2]

No, rays are not area spells either. They are effect spells.

This difference should be obvious after reading the "aiming a spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell)" rules.

I get that, but the way it sounds is, it will hit anyone in the way, is that correct?

[Douglas]

I get that, but the way it sounds is, it will hit anyone in the way, is that correct?
By common sense, yes. By the rules, someone being in the way gives the target an AC bonus for cover but as of 3.5 there is no chance of actually hitting the creature providing that cover.

It works the same way as ranged weapon attacks do, except that it only needs to beat touch AC instead of full AC.