Two weapon fighting ranger optimised build?

[Gharkash]

So, in a party of: a Dread Necro (optimised), a Druid (not optimised probably a bit toned down), a Wizard (he is a drow, nuff said) and a Swordsage (mildly to high optimised at higher levels), there exists a ranger (note that the SS is a two-hander).

I need a build for the ranger that can (or comes close to) match the previously mentioned characters, probably something that goes tier 3. We are currently 6 lvl. My idea was ranger6/tempest4/dervish10. A friend suggested that tempest does not worth the one extra feat, and went ranger6/dervish10/ranger4.

What is your opinion on the above builds ( i know almost nothing of 2wf optimisation, don't judge me)? Any other 2wf builds that will do the trick?

Builds with the following in mind:


Six levels of ranger are set in stone.
A 2wf build (captain obvious).
No dips or funny multiclassing, two to three classes would be just fine.

Thanks.

[Rubik]

It's really difficult to make TWF work well. Your best bet is to find ways to get tons of bonus damage (such as sneak attack) or you'll be plinking away doing very little (and spending a ton of money on multiple weapons to do so).

I'd suggest that you look at the wildshape ranger variant. It won't be as strong as a druid (but then, what is?), but at least it's better than what you've got now.

[Gavinfoxx]

2WF with a Greatsword and Armor Spikes from a Mithral Breastplate.

[eggs]

If Dragon Magazine's Mystic Ranger variant and Spell Compendium are available, straight Ranger gets bumped up into ToB's weight class with minimal change.

Otherwise, Swift Hunter builds work well enough, as long as they dip Cleric (for Travel Devotion) or Barbarian (for Pounce). Or occasional Swordsage/Warblade dips for Tiger Claw maneuvers. Singh Rager and Wild Runner can also get Pounce, along with various Rage-like benefits and intimidate abilities.

Dervish's mobility made it special early in 3e, but it's pretty clearly outclassed by some of 3e's later mobile fighters. If you want the Ranger to keep up, it's easiest to grab some of those later resources to do so.

[Greenish]

Ranger 6/Revenant Blade 10/Singh Rager 4.

[DrMike105]

You could try Ranger 6 / Scout 3 / Warblade 1 / Scout 1 / Ranger 9. Take Swift Hunter (Comp. Scoundrel), which lets your Ranger / Scout levels stack for Skirmish (you get 5d6 damage per attack in a turn you move 10 or more feet). Even more importantly, the skirmish affects your Favored Enemies even if they're normally immune to precision damage. The Warblade 1 is for the Sudden Leap maneuver. Every other turn you can jump as a swift action to get your 10 feet and still make a full attack. Other tricks with the same result include Cloistered Cleric* 1 with the Travel Devotion feat (Comp. Champion). The point is that with the TWF tree, every attack gains +5d6 damage (by level 20, but still decent amounts before that), giving you +manyD6. As a bonus, you're still getting lots of skill points too. Your 4th level of Scout nets you a bonus feat, which can be Improved Skirmish (also Comp. Scoundrel).

*regular Cleric gets you the same trick, but Cloistered Cleric gets you more stuff for only one level.

EDIT: I know the OP said no dips, but its hard to make an effective TWFer without it. Also, rmg22893 and gorfnab are right...one level in Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian would fit in quite nicely.

[rmg22893]

Take a level of Lion Totem Barbarian. Pounce is required if you want to make TWF viable at all.

[gorfnab]

Take a level of Lion Totem Barbarian. Pounce is required if you want to make TWF viable at all.
You'll want the Spiritual Totem: Lion ACF from Complete Champion. Whirling Frenzy ACF from Unearthed Arcana is also nice to add on.

[gallagher]

if you are dipping a level of barbarian, you could also take 3 levels of stoneblessed, picking goliath and get the mountain rage ACF to get a size increase

[Soranar]

A tier 3 two weapon fighting build with no dips

Ah well, I've always liked a challenge.

Alright how about this:

Race: Strongheart halfling
Deity: any with daggers as their favored weapon
templates: none

ACF

drop your ranger spellcasting for a bonus feat (you only have 6 levels so it makes sense)

1 Ranger Point bland shot, Precise shot
2 Ranger
3 Ranger Weapon focus: dagger
4 Ranger bonus feat
5 Ranger
6 Ranger Rapid shot
7 Master Thrower Trip shot bonus feat: Quick draw
8 Master Thrower
9 Master Thrower True Believer Palm Throw
10 Master Thrower
11 Master Thrower Weak Spot
12 Pious templar Greater TWF
13 Pious templar
14 Pious templar bonus feat: weapon specialization (dagger)
15 Halfling Paragon Ranged Weapon mastery
16 Halfling Paragon Thrown Weapon mastery
17 Halfling Paragon
18+ open level (suggest swordsage)

Get gloves of infinite blades to get a neverending source of ammo

Fighting becomes this:

-throw daggers (Iteratives, +3 daggers from TWF + 1 from rapid shot)
-double all your ammo output through palm throw
-make every attack a touch attack through weak spot
-make every attack a trip shot (Dex based trip attack with a +4)
-every individual dagger does 1d3 + 6 damage (2 from specialization, 2 from ranged mastery, 2 from thrown mastery)

[Darrin]

My idea was ranger6/tempest4/dervish10. A friend suggested that tempest does not worth the one extra feat, and went ranger6/dervish10/ranger4.


Your friend is correct. Friends don't let friends take Tempest. Horrible PrC that makes you *worse* at TWF.

What books are available? Online sources ok? Dragon Magazine ok?

What sort of weapons do you prefer for TWF? Two shortswords, greatsword+armor spikes, two dragonsplits, something more exotic?

Dragonsplits are somewhat more efficient feat-wise:

TWF Dragonsplits
Race: Human, Azurin, Strongheart Halfing, Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc
1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion, Bonus: EWP Dragonsplits (MMIV p. 151), Bonus: Track
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF
3) Scout 1. Feat: Weapon Focus Dragonsplits. Skirmish 1d6
4) Scout 2. Skirmish 1d6.
5) Scout 3. Skirmish 1d6 +1
6) Scout 4. Feat: Swift Hunter. Bonus: Improved Skirmish. Skirmish 2d6 +1/4d6 +3.
7) Ranger 3. Bonus: Endurance. Skirmish 2d6 +2/4d6 +4
8) Exotic Weapon Master 1. Uncanny Blow.
9) Ranger 4. Feat: Power Attack
10) Ranger 5. Skirmish 3d6 +2/5d6 +4
11) Ranger 6. Bonus: Imp. TWF
12) Highland Stalker 1. Feat: Combat Reflexes
13) Highland Stalker 2. Skirmish 4d6 +2/6d6 +4
14) Ranger 7. Skirmish 4d6 +3/6d6 +5
15) Ranger 8. Feat: Double Hit
16) Ranger 9. Skirmish 5d6 +3/7d6 +5
17) Ranger 10.
18) Ranger 11. Feat: Travel Devotion. Bonus: Gr. TWF. Skirmish 6d6 +4/8d6 +6
19) Ranger 12.
20) Ranger 13. Skirmish 7d6 +4/9d6 +6

[Telonius]

Just in general, TWF is a good option when you have bonus damage to your attacks. While Ranger does get this (in the form of Favored Enemies), it's usually fairly situational.

If you're already set on Ranger, have you considered a few levels of Horizon Walker? It's easy for Rangers to qualify (they have Know Geography and get Endurance as a bonus). The Insight damage bonus granted by the Terrains will stack with the untyped Favored Enemy bonus, and tends to catch more different kinds of enemies than Favored Enemy.

Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) build could be helpful here. You'll be a feat behind (since you don't want dips, you'd be moving Fighter and Barbarian to Ranger levels) but it's not insurmountable.

[Person_Man]

Do you want to use the Ranger specifically, or just a melee build with a lot of attacks? What do you actually want to do in and out of combat?

Anywho, my 2cp:

If you want to play a build with a lot of attacks you should skip Ranger for something with more resources, such as Totemist, Warblade, Swordsage, Binder, Psychic Warrior, Cleric, etc.
You can skip TWF and use the superior Multiweapon Fighting for a modest investment.
And instead of dealing damage (which TWF and MWF are inefficient at), focus on delivering status effects that are delivered by attacks. Look for Feats and magic items which Daze, Stagger, Stun, Trip, Nauseate, impose Fear effects, impose penalties, etc.
If you do use Ranger, take a look at its's alternate class features (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7908). Arcane Hunter, UA Planar Ranger (but oddly not the Planar Handbook version), Wildshape Ranger, Spell Reflection, and Urban Companion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (with the Improved Familiar feat) are all worthwhile.
If you're looking for prestige classes that go well with Ranger, consider the Landforged Walker (Plant Wildshape), Harper Paragon or Stalker of Kharesh (Favored Enemy: Evil), Kensai (efficient way to get 2 or more powerful magic weapons), or Master Thrower (efficient way to deliver status effects).

[Gharkash]

The ranger in my party wants to be a good 2wf, obviously a damage dealer. He does not want shapechanging variants or focus on spells. Six levels of ranger are invoked in stone, the DM does not allow rebuilding as the campaign started some months ago.

As for wepons, for dual wielding blades, he started with a longsword/shortsword and now changed to scimitars to go dervish. Almost any book available, Dragon magazines are ok.

Darrin, you build would work with any of the weapons mentioned above, right? Also, why is Evasion and another favored enemy better than having no penalties to attacks, +2 to AC and the ability to apply wpn focus and any other such feat to both your weapons even if they are not the same? At the expense of two feats, but still.

[Telonius]

What feats does he have currently? Since there's no rebuilding, this could really restrict what options you have. (Three or four feats occupied already...)

EDIT: Tempest makes you worse at TWF because two of the feats that it requires (Mobility and Spring Attack) do not help you attack with two weapons at all. A third (Dodge) gives you a whopping +1 AC to a single foe. You could have spent those feats on anything else useful - Oversize Two Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Pounce, or Two-Weapon Rend, to name a few.

Two-Weapon Versatility isn't very useful, since it requires that you A) have extra feats available, which is really hard if you're a Ranger who has to spend five of his feats on qualifying; and B) use one of those Feats on something like Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization, both of which are really poor options compared with other feats that might be available.

On top of that, you lose out on Reflex Saves and skill points. (Though you do get a hit die one step higher).

[Gharkash]

His feats are: Dodge, Mobility, Combat expertise, and one feat slot emty (just got to 6th lvl. Could you mix ranger scout AND dervish into a good combination?

[Telonius]

Hm. Well, you could get Elusive Target at 6 if you take another level of Ranger, or take Two-Weapon Pounce and save Elusive Target for the next level. PHB2 also offers the option of taking that instead of Improved TWF, but that might not be the best idea.

[Gwendol]

With those feats you should be able to make the swift hunter (ranger/scout) work.

[BerronBrightaxe]

IIRC... 3rd lvl Dervish gives you mobility, so you could retrain you current mobility feat for something else, go Dervish for three levels and then dip Tempest if you want.

Though I suggest going down the Scout (skirmish) path. In the dervish dance he can move and do full attacks (thus getting the skirmish bonus damage). Point being: move in melee, do full attack, move out of melee. In this way thers have to move to get to you, thus not being able to do full attacks (=less damage :smallbiggrin: ), while you do full attacks. Think 'Spring Attack with full attack' For this build get speed enhancement, for more flexibility (haste is your friend).

Another option, but not prefered: You could also consider oversized 2WF + Power Attack, meaning you can PA with both weapons.

[killem2]

If you are allowed, crescent knives from dragon 275 (i think) are pretty insane!

Otherwise, the elven blade from the same issue is pretty nasty with weapon finesse!