Weird Campaign

[Nabirius]

So I'm in a weird position in my campaign. The premise is that the group are all various heroes in the 'real world' that exist from different cultures (There is a cleric of Zeus from Greece, a Druid worshiping Sekmet from Egypt, and a Nordic Sorcerer (that's me)). We all left our world and went to see the Aztec people who have realized "oh crap it's the end of the world" and have called for aid. He told us that we should be epic heroes, and powerful, so I built a powerful character as did everyone else (but our cleric gets screwed by never having any down time to prepare contingent spells).

So we set out on this epic adventure, but things start stagnating and devolving fast as soon as we hit South America. We were wandering around for 3 sessions unable to speak to anyone because no one could speak the language until my friend finds a wizard who speaks druidic (don't ask), who has been immortalized as Randomwizardington. He has a book to teach us the language but won't give it to us. We end up going on a quest to kill a dragon-cat-thing (Hex-dragon + High Dex), at the end of which one of the players got a limited wish with a suggestion to wish to something to give to the wizard. He wished for something useful so we all left and went on out merry way. My character a sorcerer specializes almost exclusively in Time magic decides to teach the mage about time (the wizard wants to trade knowledge for knowledge). Turns out Randomwizardington is an epic mage and uses an epic level spell just to show up my character, we leave without the book.

We rob the guy blind and take the book and its off to Aztechia or Azechistan if you prefer. But we don't go on our save the world quest right away for reasons I can't really remember and I'm not sure exist, we get pulled away for a skirmish with some Orcs with a team of Jaguar warriors. We take out most of them with ease and the other warriors take out like 3, fair enough, we are heroes after all. But after the fight the warriors act as if our contributions were equal or even like they did most of the work. We later learn that all of the warriors are higher level than us by at least one class level and several more with the LA of being were-jaguar. We also have realized that the artificer in the court is also a higher level than us, combined. I am not kidding he is level 45. There is also a Divine adviser who is equally powerful. And there is also a king of unknown power. Why is my level 9 sorcerer here? My entire content could not fight this city. Seriously wtf?

I've tried explaining this to the DM but its really hard to talk to him because he gets angry and defensive really fast. What do I do?

[Alienist]

Consider the difference between reading a choose your own adventure book and watching TV. Both are valid forms of entertainment, but one involves more thinking and 'audience participation' than the other.

What you need to do is chillax, sit back and enjoy the ride. And by ride, I mean yes, you're on a train, riding the rails. So what? Fighting the DM over this is just going to destroy the campaign.

If you want to have a subtle form of rebellion, then make or bring popcorn to the session (bonus points if you can find a source of 'chic-top' ice-creams).

But trying to screw over his God-mode NPCs and steer the campaign in your own direction is just going to make everyone (in real life) label you a griefer. In the online world where everyone is (in their own minds) Chuck Norris and a deep and abiding sense of entitlement prevails, you will be hailed as a hero, and your DM will be reviled as an evil idiot. You will hear advice like "demand X from your DM or quit if he doesn't give it to you".

Look, if you can see that ultimately you're going to get all bitter and twisted about something happening in D&D (whether it's the DM's style, or another player(s) play style, or blatant favouritism or something like that), then yes, walking away before it gets to that is the better path. If you feel like that, then look around for alternate groups, but keep in mind that no group is perfect, every group has issues. If there are no easy alternatives, then you need to factor that into the equation as well.

And maybe if you're on the train and don't like it, the fastest way isn't to keep pulling the emergency break every half an hour, but just let it arrive at it's destination. Even if that means you have to shovel some coal, a dirty, thankless task. The faster the DM gets this 'epic' story-line out of his system, the sooner he may be willing to consider a different kind of campaign.

The BEST way, is to change yourself so that it doesn't bother you. Go read 7 habits of highly effective people.

[Epsilon Rose]

Maybe try getting the other players together and speaking to him as a group? If your polite about it and take it from the "hey, this could make the campaign better" angle rather than the "You're doing it wrong" angle, you'll probably get better results. Keep in mind that just because you think your being reasonable and polite doesn't mean your not actually being rude, or at-least brusk.
That said, what you're doing right now doesn't sound particularly fun, nor do his actions seem reasonable (it sounds like he's just power tripping). If he's really unwilling to listen to what his players are saying, you might be better off getting a new DM and possibly expelling him from the group all together.

[Nabirius]

Consider the difference between reading a choose your own adventure book and watching TV. Both are valid forms of entertainment, but one involves more thinking and 'audience participation' than the other.

What you need to do is chillax, sit back and enjoy the ride. And by ride, I mean yes, you're on a train, riding the rails. So what? Fighting the DM over this is just going to destroy the campaign.

If you want to have a subtle form of rebellion, then make or bring popcorn to the session (bonus points if you can find a source of 'chic-top' ice-creams).

But trying to screw over his God-mode NPCs and steer the campaign in your own direction is just going to make everyone (in real life) label you a griefer. In the online world where everyone is (in their own minds) Chuck Norris and a deep and abiding sense of entitlement prevails, you will be hailed as a hero, and your DM will be reviled as an evil idiot. You will hear advice like "demand X from your DM or quit if he doesn't give it to you".

Look, if you can see that ultimately you're going to get all bitter and twisted about something happening in D&D (whether it's the DM's style, or another player(s) play style, or blatant favouritism or something like that), then yes, walking away before it gets to that is the better path. If you feel like that, then look around for alternate groups, but keep in mind that no group is perfect, every group has issues. If there are no easy alternatives, then you need to factor that into the equation as well.

And maybe if you're on the train and don't like it, the fastest way isn't to keep pulling the emergency break every half an hour, but just let it arrive at it's destination. Even if that means you have to shovel some coal, a dirty, thankless task. The faster the DM gets this 'epic' story-line out of his system, the sooner he may be willing to consider a different kind of campaign.

The BEST way, is to change yourself so that it doesn't bother you. Go read 7 habits of highly effective people.

Fair enough, that said, no. I am not going to change myself because of this I do have a right to have some of the campaign tailored to what I want to do. Call it entitlement if you will but in all honesty I think that is when it works best for everyone.

I think part of the problem is that I made this character expecting Exalted where my character mattered and that what I did could change the course of the world, but the DM was expecting a character that would be more of a fish out of water.

But I don't know what to do now due to interrupting a human sacrifice, its basically turned the entire world against me. Also pretty much everyone is annoyed but for different reasons

I've already stated my problem

The Druid is chaotic neutral and often wants to kill off NPCs that get to pissy. Mostly because he doesn't feel challenged and often gets bored during combat and dislikes the puzzles we have run across (they also typically don't involve him).

The Cleric desperately wants to be a blaster so she throws javelins all the time, it doesn't really work all that well. Also her turns take upwards of 30 minutes to resolve due to the fact that she is often unfamiliar with the rules.

The DM is annoyed because he really wants to be tricky, but it never really works out well. We typically trivialize his combat encounters and get frustrated at his puzzles (sometimes because we don't realize its a puzzle of some sort) a good example of this is when we were interrogating this one guy about a magic item he stole, we set up a Zone of Truth.
Cleric: Tell us where you hid the amulet!
Guy: Its not on my person.
Me: Charm person, now where is it?
DM: I wanted you guys to corner him semantically.

[Nabirius]

Whoops, sorry for the double post.

[Arbane]

Ask him why the UberNPCs aren't the ones saving the world, sounds like they've got the firepower for it.

[Vegan Zombie]

Cleric: Tell us where you hid the amulet!
Guy: Its not on my person.
Me: Charm person, now where is it?
DM: I wanted you guys to corner him semantically.

Now that is BS. Your DM is pissed because his Epic level players thwarted his encounter with a first level spell. I'm all for a bit of rail roading, but you shouldn't be telling players how to play the game like that.

I once brought down a chimera by casting Web using his wings as the two anchors. It failed its save and plummeted to the ground, here my party stomped it. My DM applauded me - outside the box thinking should be rewarded, not punished.

[OracleofSilence]

Now that is BS. Your DM is pissed because his Epic level players thwarted his encounter with a first level spell. I'm all for a bit of rail roading, but you shouldn't be telling players how to play the game like that.

He is level 9. [see post 1]

Anyway, just talk to the GM, ask him what the poit of your character is. If he gets defensive, he has something to defend, but DO NOT antagonize him. This seems like the DM is trying very very hard to prevent you from jumping the rails, and causing issues in the Campaign world because of it. Point out that you and your fellow players are not having fun...

Aww, who am I kidding, he is never gonna listen to that. Try to point out the issues as they come up. Do not be rude about it, but if your entire party is less powerful then grunt warriors of the people you ARE TRYING TO HELP, apparently cause they need it, something is very, very, very wrong.

[Epsilon Rose]

He told us that we should be epic heroes... Why is my level 9 sorcerer here?
I just realize, this confuses me a bit. In D&D epic normally refers to level 20+, not level. Which definition of epic are you using?

What you need to do is chillax, sit back and enjoy the ride. And by ride, I mean yes, you're on a train, riding the rails. So what? Fighting the DM over this is just going to destroy the campaign.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. This campaign is obviously being poorly run and it's a players right to speak up about it.


The Cleric desperately wants to be a blaster so she throws javelins all the time, it doesn't really work all that well. Also her turns take upwards of 30 minutes to resolve due to the fact that she is often unfamiliar with the rules.
This seems like a relatively easy problem to fix, even with out the DMs help. Clerics are fairly versatile and I'm 98.9% sure it could do what she want's (I've never actually played one, but they are tier 1). If one of the players who's more familiar with the system offered to help her learn her character better in between sessions then it shouldn't be to hard to shorten her turns and in the process make her character more fun for everyone involved. Even if you guys can't figure out how to make her character play the way she wants, you could always point her to these forums, I'm positive somebody here could help.


The DM is annoyed because he really wants to be tricky, but it never really works out well. We typically trivialize his combat encounters and get frustrated at his puzzles (sometimes because we don't realize its a puzzle of some sort) a good example of this is when we were interrogating this one guy about a magic item he stole, we set up a Zone of Truth.
Cleric: Tell us where you hid the amulet!
Guy: Its not on my person.
Me: Charm person, now where is it?
DM: I wanted you guys to corner him semantically.
This sounds like he either doesn't know what kind of game he's running (i.e. doesn't grasp how players can act in D&D) or he's far to wedded to his plans and wants things to play out exactly as he's envisioned them. Neither is particularly fair for the players, and you should talk to him about it, polity and in private if you can, immediately and directly if he absolutely won't listen. Again, I'm sure there are some threads on here with advice on DMing or people who'd be willing to help him do a better job.
It also might be worth suggesting someone else run a one shot, that way he can see how D&D can work if you give the players some choices and reward creativity.

[Vegan Zombie]

He is level 9. [


Oh my bad I thought he said 9th level spells. That's even worse! How are level 9 pcs supposed to cope with everything under the sun being higher level? (and some by a lot)

[lord pringle]

I'd talk to the GM. I'd open with a disclamer saying, "Your game is awesome, but I have a few suggestions/complaints/questions about your game." That or beat him up with the Epic Level Handbook.

[nedz]

The Druid is chaotic neutral and often wants to kill off NPCs that get to pissy. Mostly because he doesn't feel challenged and often gets bored during combat and dislikes the puzzles we have run across (they also typically don't involve him).
So he should wildshape into something big and eat one :smallsmile:
Or have a large Animal Companion called Nom-Nom or something.

I once went through a phase where my players would sneak up to and murderise my talky encounters and talk to my combat ones. What actually annoyed me was when they complained about the lack of RP.:smallfrown:


The Cleric desperately wants to be a blaster so she throws javelins all the time, it doesn't really work all that well. Also her turns take upwards of 30 minutes to resolve due to the fact that she is often unfamiliar with the rules.

Sounds like a Stormlord (PrC from CDiv)


The DM is annoyed because he really wants to be tricky, but it never really works out well. We typically trivialize his combat encounters and get frustrated at his puzzles (sometimes because we don't realize its a puzzle of some sort) a good example of this is when we were interrogating this one guy about a magic item he stole, we set up a Zone of Truth.
Cleric: Tell us where you hid the amulet!
Guy: Its not on my person.
Me: Charm person, now where is it?
DM: I wanted you guys to corner him semantically.

So he needs to learn how to make this happen, amongst other things too perhaps ?:smallsmile:

[Angus Khan]

So, I'm the Druid... And I'm feeling the exact same way about this campaign. It was a long time coming, since the DM favors me something awful and lets me get away with crazy amounts of stuff. For instance, I am a "human" druid...With a +6 and a +4 racial bonus to wisdom and dexterity, respectively. I have access to Divine Metamagic because of the Initiate of Nature feat (command animals as an evil cleric commands undead) as well as getting outsider wildshape instead of elemental wildshape... because "elementals are basically a type of outsider anyway..."

Suffice to say, I was a lot more patient with the DM and willing to "ride the rails" for quite a while. Granted, the insane amount of free buffs I got helped with this considerably, but eventually I ended up in the same place as Nabirius.

The campaign started OK, but as soon as we hit Aztecistan we hit a wall as we just sat in the Aztec city twiddling our thumbs and watching the extremely dull and homogenous Aztecs live their daily lives. We were no longer epic heroes of myth and legend, but rather background characters in the lamest soap opera ever.

Last week, when the DM had an entire session where we went to an Aztec festival and played carnival games was the last straw for me... I am really, really close to just preparing flame strike as much as I can and then burning the entire city to the ground... at least it would be an interesting turn of events for once.

[Epsilon Rose]

Last week, when the DM had an entire session where we went to an Aztec festival and played carnival games was the last straw for me... I am really, really close to just preparing flame strike as much as I can and then burning the entire city to the ground... at least it would be an interesting turn of events for once.

Not that I'd advocate intentionally ruining a campaign, but it would be kind of interesting if your party did that and became the "end of the world" that you were called in to stop...
Wait, there are NPCs running around with more levels than all of you combined. That won't get very far.

[nedz]

So, I'm the Druid... And I'm feeling the exact same way about this campaign. It was a long time coming, since the DM favors me something awful and lets me get away with crazy amounts of stuff. For instance, I am a "human" druid...With a +6 and a +4 racial bonus to wisdom and dexterity, respectively. I have access to Divine Metamagic because of the Initiate of Nature feat (command animals as an evil cleric commands undead) as well as getting outsider wildshape instead of elemental wildshape... because "elementals are basically a type of outsider anyway..."


this, is never a good sign.
You are being gifted with things that the DM thinks you will like, rather than challanges and options. You never have to earn this stuff or choose what you want from among your options. You start in the great railway station.

[Nabirius]

Actually the cleric is a stormlord. I have directed her to the forums as per Rose's advice, hopefully she comes on and asks around I think it would be good for her understanding of the game. Hopefully that will help her out.

The main problem with this DM as I said is his hair trigger temper. Its typically pretty easy to guess as to what will set it off, but sometimes it takes you utterly by surprise. Also he typically responds in 1 of 2 ways, the first is sudden anger, and the other is that he gets very mopey, either typically puts an end to conversation. So the problem is how to get around all of the triggers while still informing him of what we feel is wrong (all of it), and getting him to listen.

We don't feel important. I think that this one is a pretty easy fix in terms of conversation topic, we don't feel interesting respected or powerful, we would like it if you did something to assuage that feeling. I think he would try to defend it in someway, but I also don't think he'll get angry, mostly because he hasn't in the past. The problem is getting him to listen, because he often will have similar conversations and he agrees before then immediately continuing with his old habits.

We don't do anything. This is a problem area, he may agree, but he will probably try to make excuses. This is another 'get him to listen and change his behavior problem' because if we accept the excuse he will probably continue.

Roleplaying doesn't consist of us talking about our nightly routine, or chit-chatting over dinner, quit forcing us to do that. This is an issue. The wanted this campaign to be 'Roleplaying heavy' but it really isn't whenever we roleplay its him demanding (and I do mean demanding) us to tell him what we do while we wait for something. Being given a moment to characterize our characters a little bit is nice, bringing the game to a grinding halt until all of us do something is not. This is going to be a problem because I've talked to him about it before and he got angry and told me he was doing it for our cleric. But she doesn't like it either. He then made it apparent to me in conversation that he clearly felt that those small things were very important.

Be more generous with loot. This will set him off because he'll think of us as power-gamers.

We hate his NPCs. They are dull, homogeneous and there are about 3 total personalities and they switch with his mood. Also they are too damn powerful. The fact that they don't catch our interest is telling in and of itself, but here's the really annoying thing, they are not just more powerful mechanically, they are more powerful narratively, even when they are clearly weaker than us. The jaguar warriors are the prime example of this, treating us as weaker in conversation but are clearly inferior combatants. This will make him angry because he is so endeared to his own NPCs, but its really annoying when he gets this one smile on his face and says "he's a badass" about his NPCs, because he can literally conjure them out of no where with whatever powers, their badass-ness is not something to be proud of. If your players take a liking to an NPC that's something to be proud of.

The thing is he needs to know this. We are friends and I would like to continue to be his friend, but I never want to be in a game with him DMing, especially not if he doesn't try to fix these problems. If he does I'd be willing to try again. But if he doesn't know he may want to DM again and do the same things again, and I don't really know how I would explain to him then that I hated his campaign but didn't want to talk to him about it.

[Epsilon Rose]

I suppose there's always the concept of an intervention.
First, you need to get all of the players on board. 100%. After that, figure out what you want to change, what you want to say to him and how you want to say it (probably in that order). Then when one of the sessions is about to start tell him your not going to be doing that [tonight/today/whatever] and instead your going to talk about how he's DMing, how the games going and how he responds to his players' feedback.
Don't stop or let him walk away, even if he gets mopey or angry (unless he gets violent, in which case you have bigger issues), until he understands what's wrong and you've all come to an agreement on how it's going to be fixed (preferably with changes that can be quantified). Once you've done that, hold him to it. If he makes an agreement and then breaks it and you don't call him on it then he'll learn the whole thing was meaning less and he can do what he wants.

That said, it sounds like it might be a good idea to scrap or restart the game, regardless of the conclusion you've come to. When someone is really invested in their characters/plot/plans/what-have-you it can be hard for them to change it or see it in a different way, so it might be easier for him to improve if he has a clean slate. This also obviates the need for any retcons, which is nice.

[Draig]

Just... Wow.

Ok where to start?
The Druid, your human yet have an insane stat buff. Did the dm just bestow this upon you or did you ask to have this buff?
The problem with a PC being gifted with something like that and not earning it is that, no offense meant, but its like giving in to a spoiled child. A buff like that overpowers one character and unbalances the team. The classes and rules were set up by people whose job it was to make the game fun and challenging for all players. Homebrewing a buff like that out of favoritism is a trainwreck.

The Cleric, I don't understand exactly how she isn't what she wants to be. Clerics are one of the only classes that I believe have an amazing versatility. I've seen clerics who were shining champions for their gods who could bring fear into the hearts of their gods' enemies and crush them with brute strength. I've seen clerics who could thwart entire armies with their divine spellcasting. And I've seen clerics who had more tricks up their vestments than any rogue of Olidammara could ever dream of. So for her character not to be what she wants isn't on your DM its on the Player.

Now for you sir. With the wizard that could have taught you things, that moment has come and gone, regretfully, BUT it seems like your dm was trying to be his "tricky" self by having your party work for this man then be "tricked" into giving their reward to him. If the dm's wizard wanted to know about your chronomancy I think he would have just asked. I think this was another one of your dm's puzzles.

As for your DM. It seems to me that both sides of this little spat are in the wrong. After seeing that you guys weren't crazy about the puzzle's he should have withdrawn them from his campaign but like most DM's and Mr. Martin Luther King, he "Has a dream" of this perfect campaign he wants to run and yet the pieces just aren't falling into place. The first major rule of DM'ing that I myself learned was adaptability. Its crucial or else a dm will fail. Now I won't tell you how to handle the dm, because he is your friend not my own and if anyone knows how to handle him it would be your group. But as for the PC folley here. Being a dm is not a walk in the park, its hard and time consuming. Not only does a dm have to find a balance between rp and hack n slash that the party likes he also has to make it fun, for the PC's and himself. Which clearly isn't happening. My advise would be to scrap this campaign and have one of you run your own and let him see how the other 2 pc's react to what the new dm throws out at them. Let him see the pc's from the other side of the screen while one of you takes the burden of Dm'ing on your shoulders to give everyone a new perspective and, hopefully, a newfound respect and understanding for the others' position.

[Nabirius]

Just... Wow.

Ok where to start?
The Druid, your human yet have an insane stat buff. Did the dm just bestow this upon you or did you ask to have this buff?
The problem with a PC being gifted with something like that and not earning it is that, no offense meant, but its like giving in to a spoiled child. A buff like that overpowers one character and unbalances the team. The classes and rules were set up by people whose job it was to make the game fun and challenging for all players. Homebrewing a buff like that out of favoritism is a trainwreck.

The Cleric, I don't understand exactly how she isn't what she wants to be. Clerics are one of the only classes that I believe have an amazing versatility. I've seen clerics who were shining champions for their gods who could bring fear into the hearts of their gods' enemies and crush them with brute strength. I've seen clerics who could thwart entire armies with their divine spellcasting. And I've seen clerics who had more tricks up their vestments than any rogue of Olidammara could ever dream of. So for her character not to be what she wants isn't on your DM its on the Player.

Now for you sir. With the wizard that could have taught you things, that moment has come and gone, regretfully, BUT it seems like your dm was trying to be his "tricky" self by having your party work for this man then be "tricked" into giving their reward to him. If the dm's wizard wanted to know about your chronomancy I think he would have just asked. I think this was another one of your dm's puzzles.

As for your DM. It seems to me that both sides of this little spat are in the wrong. After seeing that you guys weren't crazy about the puzzle's he should have withdrawn them from his campaign but like most DM's and Mr. Martin Luther King, he "Has a dream" of this perfect campaign he wants to run and yet the pieces just aren't falling into place. The first major rule of DM'ing that I myself learned was adaptability. Its crucial or else a dm will fail. Now I won't tell you how to handle the dm, because he is your friend not my own and if anyone knows how to handle him it would be your group. But as for the PC folley here. Being a dm is not a walk in the park, its hard and time consuming. Not only does a dm have to find a balance between rp and hack n slash that the party likes he also has to make it fun, for the PC's and himself. Which clearly isn't happening. My advise would be to scrap this campaign and have one of you run your own and let him see how the other 2 pc's react to what the new dm throws out at them. Let him see the pc's from the other side of the screen while one of you takes the burden of Dm'ing on your shoulders to give everyone a new perspective and, hopefully, a newfound respect and understanding for the others' position.

With the exception of the Cleric we have all DMed before. The Druid ran our last campaign, he had a few bad habits but he was very open to criticism his bad habits were almost totally absent from the last several sessions as well as a good d&d one-shot. I have run a few one-shots with a different group of friends, I am also Storytelling for an Exalted campaign at the moment, the DM is in my exalted campaign and was in the Druid's Eclipse Phase campaign and d&d oneshot. This DM has also DMed d&d several times before and did a Mutants and Masterminds campaign that I was in a while back.

No the Cleric's lack of flexibility is not the DM's fault what is his fault however is to continually push her to do standard attack/full attack rather than encourage her to do literally anything else.

One thing I was wondering about the intervention idea is do you think we should do it during the campaign or after when he is looking for input? How honest do we get? Do we tell him that it was a complete train-wreck? Or do we point out all the problems but not really give him a full analysis? I kinda want to know if any of you have had to do something similar? What did you do and how did it work out?

[Draig]

With the exception of the Cleric we have all DMed before. The Druid ran our last campaign, he had a few bad habits but he was very open to criticism his bad habits were almost totally absent from the last several sessions as well as a good d&d one-shot. I have run a few one-shots with a different group of friends, I am also Storytelling for an Exalted campaign at the moment, the DM is in my exalted campaign and was in the Druid's Eclipse Phase campaign and d&d oneshot. This DM has also DMed d&d several times before and did a Mutants and Masterminds campaign that I was in a while back.

No the Cleric's lack of flexibility is not the DM's fault what is his fault however is to continually push her to do standard attack/full attack rather than encourage her to do literally anything else.

One thing I was wondering about the intervention idea is do you think we should do it during the campaign or after when he is looking for input? How honest do we get? Do we tell him that it was a complete train-wreck? Or do we point out all the problems but not really give him a full analysis? I kinda want to know if any of you have had to do something similar? What did you do and how did it work out?

Ok for the cleric, she should, forgive the term, "man up" and tell the DM it is her character and she will play it like she wants. If he refuses her on it or makes some comment she should just hand him her char sheet, seeing as he just wants to play her character for her. That might snap him out of his rut.

So you've all played before and he HAS dm'ed before, what were those campaigns like? Were they like this one or is it just his newfound idea is making the wagon wheel not turn?

And yes I have done interventions like that and it is a very very fine line to tread. One wrong word and you risk upsetting and losing a real life friend. Also, I'd do it at the end of a session that way you have fresh examples of what bothered you all, because if you decide to host an intervention when he is planning to run a session he might only focus on the fact that you guys all knew you would not be playing and he might feel cast out or even angry because of that fact and not pay attention to anything said. The first thing you should do is remind him that its not him that your upset with, its the current campaign and the way he is playing it out. Personally I think a clean slate at this point would be in everyone's best interest.

[Angus Khan]

The Druid, your human yet have an insane stat buff. Did the dm just bestow this upon you or did you ask to have this buff?
The problem with a PC being gifted with something like that and not earning it is that, no offense meant, but its like giving in to a spoiled child. A buff like that overpowers one character and unbalances the team. The classes and rules were set up by people whose job it was to make the game fun and challenging for all players. Homebrewing a buff like that out of favoritism is a trainwreck.

I completely agree with you... before the campaign even started, I asked for the DM to homebrew a race based on an anthropomorphic lion. I fully expected a give and take, but I wanted a feline race since my druid is fairly cat-themed. As it turns out, he gave me the stats buffs basically for free and I didn't complain. (especially since it doesn't unbalance me too much from the sorcerer and his 3 templates) After that, it just became a game to see exactly how much the DM would let me get away with... I expected him to stop at the outsider wildshape, but apparently he has no sense of balance...


As for your DM. It seems to me that both sides of this little spat are in the wrong. After seeing that you guys weren't crazy about the puzzle's he should have withdrawn them from his campaign but like most DM's and Mr. Martin Luther King, he "Has a dream" of this perfect campaign he wants to run and yet the pieces just aren't falling into place. The first major rule of DM'ing that I myself learned was adaptability. Its crucial or else a dm will fail. Now I won't tell you how to handle the dm, because he is your friend not my own and if anyone knows how to handle him it would be your group. But as for the PC folley here. Being a dm is not a walk in the park, its hard and time consuming. Not only does a dm have to find a balance between rp and hack n slash that the party likes he also has to make it fun, for the PC's and himself. Which clearly isn't happening. My advise would be to scrap this campaign and have one of you run your own and let him see how the other 2 pc's react to what the new dm throws out at them. Let him see the pc's from the other side of the screen while one of you takes the burden of Dm'ing on your shoulders to give everyone a new perspective and, hopefully, a newfound respect and understanding for the others' position.

Again, you are totally right... DMing is certainly a challenge. As Nabirius pointed out, however, both of us have DMed before and with our current DM as one of the PC's no less. I'm beginning to get the feeling that he (our current DM) has no idea how to DM and just doesn't realize it. He seems to have an certain story that he wants to go a certain way, regardless of player input. I'm OK with a little railroading, but this is getting ridiculous.

[Otomodachi]

One thing I was wondering about the intervention idea is do you think we should do it during the campaign or after when he is looking for input? How honest do we get? Do we tell him that it was a complete train-wreck? Or do we point out all the problems but not really give him a full analysis? I kinda want to know if any of you have had to do something similar? What did you do and how did it work out?

Wellllllllll... I've been through this exact situation. I was 'the druid' in my situation. I'm gonna step up and say what noone else is gonna (because it is rude, or incorrect- either way).

Ditch. Is the DM a close friend of yours? Don't care. Just don't show up anymore. If his reaction to criticism is either to get pissed or mope, he's probably a whiny little baby and no approach you try is going to fix that. Don't let him DM. Probably cut him out of your gaming group. Maybe someday he'll track you down and apologize.

Dude sounds like the kind of person that scares new gamers away. Cut him out.

*shrug*

[hoverfrog]

You want involvement in the story. Look at your character background and history for a way to connect to the DM's campaign. If you haven't got one then write one that leaves gaps for the DM to insert encounters that matter to you. You're a Nordic sorcerer so what motivates you? A way to get into Valhalla or a way to escape Hel? An ancient rune that unlocks the power to remove a curse on your village? Why are you adventuring? Is it to gain wealth, vengeance, power, prestige to impress a girl, to explore strange new lands, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before, to fight the demons of Hel, to repay a debt? Do you have a personal arch enemy? Did your brother, the warrior known as Jorl the Slaver, wrong you and then flee to this Aztecian land. You must track him down to recover what he stole. You've heard a rumour that he's working for the Big Bad so you oppose the Big Bad too.

Share this with you DM, talk to them about getting your character involved in the story. Spark some interest so that you're working together to tell an epic tale rather than making the DM do all the work and the players trying to spoil it (possibly the DM's perspective). If your history can't be fitted in to the campaign then get your DM to tell you and change it to fit.

[Angus Khan]

Wellllllllll... I've been through this exact situation. I was 'the druid' in my situation. I'm gonna step up and say what noone else is gonna (because it is rude, or incorrect- either way).

Ditch. Is the DM a close friend of yours? Don't care. Just don't show up anymore. If his reaction to criticism is either to get pissed or mope, he's probably a whiny little baby and no approach you try is going to fix that. Don't let him DM. Probably cut him out of your gaming group. Maybe someday he'll track you down and apologize.

Dude sounds like the kind of person that scares new gamers away. Cut him out.

*shrug*

Unfortunately we were all friends long before he started DMing, so I (and I assume Nabirius) would really prefer not to do that to him... It would be preferable to be able to resolve this without completely alienating him.


You want involvement in the story. Look at your character background and history for a way to connect to the DM's campaign. If you haven't got one then write one that leaves gaps for the DM to insert encounters that matter to you. You're a Nordic sorcerer so what motivates you? A way to get into Valhalla or a way to escape Hel? An ancient rune that unlocks the power to remove a curse on your village? Why are you adventuring? Is it to gain wealth, vengeance, power, prestige to impress a girl, to explore strange new lands, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before, to fight the demons of Hel, to repay a debt? Do you have a personal arch enemy? Did your brother, the warrior known as Jorl the Slaver, wrong you and then flee to this Aztecian land. You must track him down to recover what he stole. You've heard a rumour that he's working for the Big Bad so you oppose the Big Bad too.

Share this with you DM, talk to them about getting your character involved in the story. Spark some interest so that you're working together to tell an epic tale rather than making the DM do all the work and the players trying to spoil it (possibly the DM's perspective). If your history can't be fitted in to the campaign then get your DM to tell you and change it to fit.

Oddly we all did that... we were under the impression that the campaign would be VERY different than it has turned out.

[Draig]

I completely agree with you... before the campaign even started, I asked for the DM to homebrew a race based on an anthropomorphic lion. I fully expected a give and take, but I wanted a feline race since my druid is fairly cat-themed. As it turns out, he gave me the stats buffs basically for free and I didn't complain. (especially since it doesn't unbalance me too much from the sorcerer and his 3 templates) After that, it just became a game to see exactly how much the DM would let me get away with... I expected him to stop at the outsider wildshape, but apparently he has no sense of balance...

I'm sorry, 3 templates? Was your dm just giving buffs away? As for your feline ferocity, I have made races like that for my players and you are correct any give should have an equal take. Also I've had a DM homebrew feats that a pc could take to start gaining the aspects of a certain animal so you get the buff with a price. (Kind of like how the Geomancer has the Drift aspect)


Again, you are totally right... DMing is certainly a challenge. As Nabirius pointed out, however, both of us have DMed before and with our current DM as one of the PC's no less. I'm beginning to get the feeling that he (our current DM) has no idea how to DM and just doesn't realize it. He seems to have an certain story that he wants to go a certain way, regardless of player input. I'm OK with a little railroading, but this is getting ridiculous.

Tell him to take up writing then, clearly he has a story he wants to see unfold and is dragging people not of a like mind into it and getting mad when they don't follow his tracks.

As for railroading, my group avoids it, any campaign we run has at least 3 paths that the party can branch to if they want. But the easiest way to stop railroading? Derail the train. Or smash the tracks. He wants you to twiddle your thumbs in the aztec town? Screw that, you wanna go hunt jaguars. He wants to keep you in the town by barring the gates? Go see how many aztecs you can steal from, or even better, break the gates. He sent you into this world believing you would all be the biggest baddest lions in the land. And what happens when you cage a big bad lion? It busts out.

[Angus Khan]

As for railroading, my group avoids it, any campaign we run has at least 3 paths that the party can branch to if they want. But the easiest way to stop railroading? Derail the train. Or smash the tracks. He wants you to twiddle your thumbs in the aztec town? Screw that, you wanna go hunt jaguars. He wants to keep you in the town by barring the gates? Go see how many aztecs you can steal from, or even better, break the gates. He sent you into this world believing you would all be the biggest baddest lions in the land. And what happens when you cage a big bad lion? It busts out.

Recently I've been thinking of "playing my alignment" more and turning chaotic neutral into crazy neutral just for something to do... I'm a little afraid to, however, since last time the party went off the rails and robbed a questgiver (he was being stubborn and ridiculous) the DM pouted about it tried to kill us with a dragon. I honestly don't know how far from the rails we could get before it spelled the end of the entire campaign, and ending on a sour note is never fun...

[Draig]

Recently I've been thinking of "playing my alignment" more and turning chaotic neutral into crazy neutral just for something to do... I'm a little afraid to, however, since last time the party went off the rails and robbed a questgiver (he was being stubborn and ridiculous) the DM pouted about it tried to kill us with a dragon. I honestly don't know how far from the rails we could get before it spelled the end of the entire campaign, and ending on a sour note is never fun...

I had a DM do that, he got mad that the train stopped and sent a Tarrasque to teach us a lesson, we knew we were dead so why fight? Instead we tried to see how many villagers we could throw into its line of kill before we died. (Record was 11, winner? Me.) But I understand what you mean. Personally it sounds like this campaign is an absolute fumble. Talk to your dm and just explain that this campaign isn't fun for any of you and you would rather end it now (maybe come back to it later) and start something new before it just becomes a bigger problem than it already is.

Oh and FYI never just "ditch" a PC or DM. Players are hard to find in this day and age with everything digital and HD. I come from a time when if something was broken we FIXED it we didn't throw it away. So Kudos to you on saying no to ditching a friend and fellow player.

[Angus Khan]

I had a DM do that, he got mad that the train stopped and sent a Tarrasque to teach us a lesson, we knew we were dead so why fight? Instead we tried to see how many villagers we could throw into its line of kill before we died. (Record was 11, winner? Me.) But I understand what you mean. Personally it sounds like this campaign is an absolute fumble. Talk to your dm and just explain that this campaign isn't fun for any of you and you would rather end it now (maybe come back to it later) and start something new before it just becomes a bigger problem than it already is.

Oh and FYI never just "ditch" a PC or DM. Players are hard to find in this day and age with everything digital and HD. I come from a time when if something was broken we FIXED it we didn't throw it away. So Kudos to you on saying no to ditching a friend and fellow player.

Thanks... its refreshing to hear something thinks we are doing the right thing in attempting to fix this...

That said, how do you deal with a Dm who sends things to kill you when you go off the rails? How do you even begin a conversation with the purpose of saying "this campaign is s**t" without being antagonistic?

[Alienist]

I like the idea of flamestriking the city into oblivion. Get the Druid to make a couple of wands of it, then the cleric and the druid can both wand the city into the ground.

[Draig]

Thanks... its refreshing to hear something thinks we are doing the right thing in attempting to fix this...

That said, how do you deal with a Dm who sends things to kill you when you go off the rails? How do you even begin a conversation with the purpose of saying "this campaign is s**t" without being antagonistic?

It depends on the pride and personality of your DM. I have friends that I can walk up to them and flat out say "dude this campaign probably gave me cancer" and they will laugh and understand. But I've had dm's who were...touchy with their pride. Its your friend so you would know the best approach to it. Granted I was in a situation like this and we realized that any way we approached it he would get offended so what did we do? We turned it around, instead of telling him the campaign was the problem all the PC's got together and devised a plan. Instead of telling him that his campaign sucked and we wanted to start over we came to him as a group Unified in our UN-Unification. We convinced him that it wasn't his campaign we hated, it was the way our characters all came together, I hated the elf, the elf stole from the gnome, the gnome stalked the dwarf, the dwarf spent all the halfling's money on ale, the halfing druid worshipped a false god in the clerics eyes, and the cleric kept "accidentally" giving me horrible diseases every time he healed me. Instead of approaching him saying "to fix your campaign you should end it" we came to him saying "we need to end your campaign to fix OUR problem" and he immediately became sympathetic to OUR cause and we ditched his "amazing" campaign because we made mistakes.

Its a bold face lie but we were willing to take a little lie and punch to our pride if it meant ending the nightmare while keeping our group a whole.

[Nabirius]

I'm sorry, 3 templates? Was your dm just giving buffs away? As for your feline ferocity, I have made races like that for my players and you are correct any give should have an equal take. Also I've had a DM homebrew feats that a pc could take to start gaining the aspects of a certain animal so you get the buff with a price. (Kind of like how the Geomancer has the Drift aspect)



Tell him to take up writing then, clearly he has a story he wants to see unfold and is dragging people not of a like mind into it and getting mad when they don't follow his tracks.

As for railroading, my group avoids it, any campaign we run has at least 3 paths that the party can branch to if they want. But the easiest way to stop railroading? Derail the train. Or smash the tracks. He wants you to twiddle your thumbs in the aztec town? Screw that, you wanna go hunt jaguars. He wants to keep you in the town by barring the gates? Go see how many aztecs you can steal from, or even better, break the gates. He sent you into this world believing you would all be the biggest baddest lions in the land. And what happens when you cage a big bad lion? It busts out.

Nice, I always liked the Geomancer's flavor. As to the handing out buffs no, I paid for my 3 templates the good old fashioned way, with level adjustment and a crappy constitution and strength and wisdom, but the 30 charisma is nice as are the spell-like abilities (also Angus your sense of history is a bit off).

I'm not really for the campaign-smashing route, mostly because it feels petty and vindictive. I realize that going off the rails is pretty much a must in any campaign, especially when its railed so tightly. I mostly just wonder if the DM doesn't know what to do when he has to improvise at all so he keeps us chained to the rails. It's my current theory anyway. My other theory is that he just loves his story to much to let the players ruin it, which is probably why it feels like we aren't really there most of the time.

Not sure we can pull off the characters not coming together well thing since all our characters are pretty much pals as of this point. Unless we just couldn't go on without the Erudite who showed up for 1 session or something. But the overall idea sounds pretty good.

[Angus Khan]

I'm not really for the campaign-smashing route, mostly because it feels petty and vindictive. I realize that going off the rails is pretty much a must in any campaign, especially when its railed so tightly. I mostly just wonder if the DM doesn't know what to do when he has to improvise at all so he keeps us chained to the rails. It's my current theory anyway. My other theory is that he just loves his story to much to let the players ruin it, which is probably why it feels like we aren't really there most of the time.

I'm pretty sure its the latter. The DM loves his story and his NPC's.


Not sure we can pull off the characters not coming together well thing since all our characters are pretty much pals as of this point. Unless we just couldn't go on without the Erudite who showed up for 1 session or something. But the overall idea sounds pretty good.

Don't worry about it, I think I'm just going to let the city burn. I can fill almost all of my many, many spell slots with fire spells... hehe.

[Nabirius]

I'm pretty sure its the latter. The DM loves his story and his NPC's.



Don't worry about it, I think I'm just going to let the city burn. I can fill almost all of my many, many spell slots with fire spells... hehe.

Man, did we come up with that list of 100 personalities for nothing?

Also did you mention the magical beast wild-shape, and the +6 headress of wisdom? Because I think the +6 headdress :smallamused: of wisdom really should get mentioned. Also the free feat (its a useless exotic weapon feat, but still).

Actually our DM has this odd habit of giving strange rewards as opposed to actual loot, for example I think we all have like 5 in Profession [Sailor] from when the vikings taught us how to sail in exchange for getting them back to shore. Or your useless free feat. Or the magic-non-magic box ship thing that we should totally weaponize at some point, maybe drop it on the king.

[Angus Khan]

Man, did we come up with that list of 100 personalities for nothing?

That was before I actually looked at how many fire spells I have.

[Nabirius]

That was before I actually looked at how many fire spells I have.

Ship in a box, king, artificer, someone. Seriously think about it.

[Epsilon Rose]

One thing I was wondering about the intervention idea is do you think we should do it during the campaign or after when he is looking for input? How honest do we get? Do we tell him that it was a complete train-wreck? Or do we point out all the problems but not really give him a full analysis? I kinda want to know if any of you have had to do something similar? What did you do and how did it work out?

I've never had to do anything like this, so you should take anything I say with a grain (or shaker) of salt.
For the most part I would suggest the reverse of what Draig said. I would recommend talking to him before the session because it doesn't seem like he'll be looking for input after and if he can't start until he's done talking with you then he has little choice but to talk to you. That said, you might want to have something non-stressful and fun available afterwords, so if your talk throws most of his plans into the gutter or he's not in the proper mindset to DM you can still do something fun together and try and prevent him from stewing on it.
Similarly, I wouldn't recommend coming up with a fake reason or sugar coating/lying about how you feel. He won't really learn anything from that and if you lie and say somethings is less of a problem than it is and things still aren't going well after, because he believed you, your future complaints aren't going to carry much weight.
There is one thing Draig said that I absolutely agree with, you should make it clear that you're not upset with him, but with the current campaign and the way it's going.

And hey, if after you've aired your grievances and there still isn't any change, there's nothing stopping you from jumping the rails, burning the sky or concocting plans involving boats, artificers and kings. But if you do that first you may regret not talking with him and there won't be much of a way for you to salvage things.

[Draig]

I've never had to do anything like this, so you should take anything I say with a grain (or shaker) of salt.
For the most part I would suggest the reverse of what Draig said. I would recommend talking to him before the session because it doesn't seem like he'll be looking for input after and if he can't start until he's done talking with you then he has little choice but to talk to you. That said, you might want to have something non-stressful and fun available afterwords, so if your talk throws most of his plans into the gutter or he's not in the proper mindset to DM you can still do something fun together and try and prevent him from stewing on it.
Similarly, I wouldn't recommend coming up with a fake reason or sugar coating/lying about how you feel. He won't really learn anything from that and if you lie and say somethings is less of a problem than it is and things still aren't going well after, because he believed you, your future complaints aren't going to carry much weight.
There is one thing Draig said that I absolutely agree with, you should make it clear that you're not upset with him, but with the current campaign and the way it's going.

And hey, if after you've aired your grievances and there still isn't any change, there's nothing stopping you from jumping the rails, burning the sky or concocting plans involving boats, artificers and kings. But if you do that first you may regret not talking with him and there won't be much of a way for you to salvage things.

Hey we're all entitled to an opinion, I might be dead wrong with my guest haha. That's why I said the best people who know how to deal with this guy would be the OP and Angus. I only suggested doing it after a session for my stated reasons and the fact I don't know how often you and your group play but mine always has a steady same day, same time, every week and if we offset that a few people, myself included would be irked. But you guys might play more often, or less religiously :p, than my group so it becomes your call.

As to burning the aztec city, did your dm describe the buildings to you? If not you should have him describe them, without mentioning your burn down idea, because if he decides that he doesn't want you arsonists in his world he can just say that the buildings are all brick and stone. As a dm I sometimes leave little loopholes like that, should a pc ever go into a destructive or psychotic rage :D

[Angus Khan]

As to burning the aztec city, did your dm describe the buildings to you? If not you should have him describe them, without mentioning your burn down idea, because if he decides that he doesn't want you arsonists in his world he can just say that the buildings are all brick and stone. As a dm I sometimes leave little loopholes like that, should a pc ever go into a destructive or psychotic rage :D

Actually, he already described the entire city as extremely flammable and made almost entirely of wood...

[Draig]

Actually, he already described the entire city as extremely flammable and made almost entirely of wood...

O_O for real? I'm pretty sure the DM's guide says "Never use the word flammable to describe something you DON'T want your PC's to burn down."

Also another interesting way to fumble the campaign. I had a PC once that decided to "Assassin's Creed" every person who gave them any info. Whether it be a peasant or the kings nephew he would wait till they finished, quote the game, then attack them. It was actually very comical, until he realized that the DND world has no "Leap of faith" feature and that when he dove out the window regardless if he landed in a stack of hay he still just fell 200 feet...

[Angus Khan]

O_O for real? I'm pretty sure the DM's guide says "Never use the word flammable to describe something you DON'T want your PC's to burn down."

Also another interesting way to fumble the campaign. I had a PC once that decided to "Assassin's Creed" every person who gave them any info. Whether it be a peasant or the kings nephew he would wait till they finished, quote the game, then attack them. It was actually very comical, until he realized that the DND world has no "Leap of faith" feature and that when he dove out the window regardless if he landed in a stack of hay he still just fell 200 feet...

Yeah, I'm starting to get the idea he has no knowledge of even the most basic DMing "rules"

[Epsilon Rose]

O_O for real? I'm pretty sure the DM's guide says "Never use the word flammable to describe something you DON'T want your PC's to burn down."

Maybe he's doing it on purpose and trying to get them to destroy the Aztechs of their own volition? Make it something about the inevitability of fate and how the people brought in to stop the apocalypse are it's cause. :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

O_O for real? I'm pretty sure the DM's guide says "Never use the word flammable to describe something you DON'T want your PC's to burn down."

Naah, you use the word flammable as a warning that they could quite easily get trapped in a burning firestorm of a city. You just need to make sure that they drop the match. :smallbiggrin:

[Angus Khan]

Project Mayhem was a complete success.

Our group (minus the DM) all spoke about the campaign as a whole and decided that we all felt the same way and need to do something about it. So, since a large part of our resentment was pointed at the constantly pissy, epic-level NPC's we concocted a plan to kill them all.

After buffing the Cleric's Wisdom to 32 and the Sorcerer's Charisma even higher, we went to "say hi" to the Artificer. once the Sorcerer was within 10 feet of the Artificer (so Winter's Chill would give him a minus 16 to his fort save) the Cleric patted him on his back and cast slay living... dropping him instantly.

We then hurried to the throne room where the rest of the court was and I cast a quickened mold touch into the room before detonating all of the fire seeds I had prepared that morning so as to practically fill the room with brown mold. The Cleric then cast Energetic Healing (cold) on the mold and the Sorcerer persisted it, effectively making the brown mold invulnerable for 24 hours. I then closed the only door to the throne room and cast seal portal, locking it permanently. From there, I downed a potion of invisibility, wild shaped into a bird and then emptied the remaining spells from my prepared spell list (all fire spells) on the city before joining the rest of the party on the boat we had procured. We then sailed away using the 3 ranks in profession: sailor we all got for free earlier in the campaign. Meanwhile the burning city kept increasing the size of the brown mold until the entire city was covered and left a desolate reminder to never make the PC's angry.

Later we attempted to calculate the experience from killing all five epic level NPC's, destroying an entire city along with all its inhabitant, and bringing about the apocalypse we were sent to stop, but we broke the online calculator.... So we just decided our characters ascended to god-hood and created our own pantheon.

The entire operation took about an hour and a half to plan and about three minutes to execute... The DM never knew what hit him. After the shock of having his campaign rails so thoroughly erased from existence wore off, we explained to to him why we did what we did and surprisingly everyone was able to have a very civil conversation about it. We aired our grievances and he explained his perspective and the whole conversation went surprisingly well. In the end, we all agreed to not try and resurrect the campaign and just start fresh with someone else DMing. We then went to IHOP to celebrate our characters' new found god-hood and our intact friendship.

Thanks everyone for your feedback and suggestions, without them Project Mayhem may not have ever been born and our group may not have stayed together. You guys are great.

TL:DR: We wrecked the crap out of our DM's campaign, but afterwards had a very pleasant conversation explaining why we did it. Maybe, just maybe the DM learned his lesson and we are all still friends to boot.