your thoughts and fixes to stealth

[Kol Korran]

(perhaps this should go into homebrew, though i don't think so)

in the last sessions two of our group tried to sneak to scout a fortress and it's defenses. it was night, and then there was snow, but also wind and so on.

in our house rules we joined hide and move silently into "stealth", and spot and listen into "perception". bonuses and penalties to any of the single skills give half the modifier to the overall skill (this includes racial, size, magic and the like). i point this out in case it matters, though i don't think so.

one of the players and the DM argued for quite a bit at what modifiers should apply to their stealth and any possible out lookers. we didn't find any common ground as how these should be adjudicated. some choice examples:

- the stealth job was a long job, over several kinds of terrains. how often do you roll for perception and stealth?

- what if you try to climb while moving stealthily?

- distance: the " change by 1 for every 10 feet" rule. it seemed quite ridiculous. and what happens if you move closer while you're sneaking?

- the humans had normal vision, and it was dark outside but quite good light from the stars and moon. do levels of light matters? if it's just "bright/ shadowy/ total dark illumination, how do these affect things?"

- if we're dealing with shadowy illumination, and it gives concealment and you were seen. can you try to hide still?

- how much is whispering or gentle actions (such as disarming a trap) affect the chance of being heard?

dos light foliage or heavy foliage affect how easy it is to spot you? is it considered as a sort of cover? concealment?

as you see we had quite a few questions. this adventure is short running, but i want a more solid set of rules for the next campaign, which will be a long one. this little affair may have dissuaded one player from attempting much stealth.

Though i guess the answer lies with some general modifiers, i didn't find them in the SRD, and wondered if any of you might have something a bit more structured, a bit better than just "hhhmmm.... i think i will give it THAT modifier). i'm looking for reference points for my game.

anything dealing with this and any thoughts on the subject in general are welcomed.

(search word: piratewitch)

[veven]

My group usually just sort of shrugs off most of this stuff but as far as distance goes the SRD says you can move up to half your speed with one check. So for the typically character one full round check lets you move 30 feet. Although if you are sneaking across a huge distance I can see how rolling 10-20 times would be a pain so I would just roll less frequently.

I never really realized how loosely my group plays with stealth rules though...

[Curmudgeon]

There's a check every round when there's a chance for someone to be noticed, but I don't see any reason why you should be rolling dice.
Taking 10

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. Creatures without darkvision see dimly in shadowy light. That's expressed as a miss chance when you're trying to attack. A DM can also impose a circumstance penalty (the usual -2). But they can see.

If you're making new skills (Perception and Stealth) then you'll need to make new rules for those skills. The standard skill rules mean that watching for trouble is a full-time job.
Trying to hear something you failed to hear previously is a move action.
Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action. So guards get their passive Spot and Listen checks for anything new (with distance penalties), but also spend each round purposely looking and listening for anything they might have missed previously (and adjust for the current distance with each check). People who aren't on watch won't be making these active (move action) checks, so they get just one chance to perceive something new.

[nedz]

In the game I run Stealth seems to work very well, but the game is set up for that. A DM can neutralise it however. Assuming that the characters are optimised for steath all that they need is terrain.

- the stealth job was a long job, over several kinds of terrains. how often do you roll for perception and stealth?
Multiple times, bear in mind though that there are range modifiers so you only really need to check when sneaking past the guard. Keeping out of view by using blocking terrain is something the PCs should do, but in a well defended location that will have been cleared

- what if you try to climb while moving stealthily?
Half speed or take a penalty (-10 IIRC)

- distance: the " change by 1 for every 10 feet" rule. it seemed quite ridiculous. and what happens if you move closer while you're sneaking?
Closest point, or work out when the spot perception is succesful for determining range. Then its down to bluff and sense motive perhaps ?

- the humans had normal vision, and it was dark outside but quite good light from the stars and moon. do levels of light matters? if it's just "bright/ shadowy/ total dark illumination, how do these affect things?"
In D&D light/sight has a range. Outside of this range concealment is total.

- if we're dealing with shadowy illumination, and it gives concealment and you were seen. can you try to hide still?
Absolutely - if you have hide in plain sight or can find some more cover, and you know you've been seen.

- how much is whispering or gentle actions (such as disarming a trap) affect the chance of being heard?
Penalties to the DC

dos light foliage or heavy foliage affect how easy it is to spot you? is it considered as a sort of cover? concealment?
yes - which depends upon how much undergrowth there is

[Curmudgeon]

- distance: the " change by 1 for every 10 feet" rule. it seemed quite ridiculous. and what happens if you move closer while you're sneaking?
If the distance changes, that affects the new perception check. But if you're dissatisfied with this game mechanic, you might consider a modification.

I don't use a lot of house rules, but this linear scaling penalty for a real-world logarithmic increase in difficulty was spoiling my games (making it impossible to detect something at medium distance), so I came up with this:

Range penalties for Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm) and Listen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm) are reduced:

From 101'-300', range penalties add -1 per additional 20'.
From 301'-600', range penalties add -1 per additional 30'.
From 601'-1000', range penalties add -1 per additional 40'.
Beyond 1000', range penalties add -1 per additional 50'.


{TABLE="head"] Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty
10' | -1 | | 160' | -13 | | 450' | -25 | | 880' | -37
20' | -2 | | 180' | -14 | | 480' | -26 | | 920' | -38
30' | -3 | | 200' | -15 | | 510' | -27 | | 960' | -49
40' | -4 | | 220' | -16 | | 540' | -28 | | 1000' | -40
50' | -5 | | 240' | -17 | | 570' | -29 | | 1050' | -41
60' | -6 | | 260' | -18 | | 600' | -30 | | 1100' | -42
70' | -7 | | 280' | -19 | | 640' | -31 | | 1150' | -43
80' | -8 | | 300' | -20 | | 680' | -32 | | 1200' | -44
90' | -9 | | 330' | -21 | | 720' | -33 | | 1250' | -45
100' | -10 | | 360' | -22 | | 760' | -34 | | 1300' | -46
120' | -11 | | 390' | -23 | | 800' | -35 | | 1350' | -47
140' | -12 | | 420' | -24 | | 840' | -36 | | 1400' | -48[/TABLE]

This addresses the issue of characters being incapable of perceiving enemies at D&D encounter distances (up to 1440'). -48 is tough to make with up to 23 ranks in Spot or Listen; the -144 of the standard rules is impossible.

[Alefiend]

Good chart, Curmudgeon.

I'd also consider starting the penalties later than 10 feet, because that's awfully close. I never liked that part of the rules—if something is close enough for a commoner to walk up and touch it, there shouldn't be a penalty to see it based on distance.

Kol Korran, your house rules on stealth and perception are core rules for Pathfinder. You should consider having a look through their SRD (www.d20pfsrd.com) to see how they handle the skills, including bonuses and penalties.

[demigodus]

If the distance changes, that affects the new perception check. But if you're dissatisfied with this game mechanic, you might consider a modification.

I don't use a lot of house rules, but this linear scaling penalty for a real-world logarithmic increase in difficulty was spoiling my games (making it impossible to detect something at medium distance), so I came up with this:

Range penalties for Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm) and Listen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm) are reduced:

From 101'-300', range penalties add -1 per additional 20'.
From 301'-600', range penalties add -1 per additional 30'.
From 601'-1000', range penalties add -1 per additional 40'.
Beyond 1000', range penalties add -1 per additional 50'.


{TABLE="head"] Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty | | Distance | Penalty
10' | -1 | | 160' | -13 | | 450' | -25 | | 880' | -37
20' | -2 | | 180' | -14 | | 480' | -26 | | 920' | -38
30' | -3 | | 200' | -15 | | 510' | -27 | | 960' | -49
40' | -4 | | 220' | -16 | | 540' | -28 | | 1000' | -40
50' | -5 | | 240' | -17 | | 570' | -29 | | 1050' | -41
60' | -6 | | 260' | -18 | | 600' | -30 | | 1100' | -42
70' | -7 | | 280' | -19 | | 640' | -31 | | 1150' | -43
80' | -8 | | 300' | -20 | | 680' | -32 | | 1200' | -44
90' | -9 | | 330' | -21 | | 720' | -33 | | 1250' | -45
100' | -10 | | 360' | -22 | | 760' | -34 | | 1300' | -46
120' | -11 | | 390' | -23 | | 800' | -35 | | 1350' | -47
140' | -12 | | 420' | -24 | | 840' | -36 | | 1400' | -48[/TABLE]

This addresses the issue of characters being incapable of perceiving enemies at D&D encounter distances (up to 1440'). -48 is tough to make with up to 23 ranks in Spot or Listen; the -144 of the standard rules is impossible.

Radius of the Moon: 5.7 x 10^6 feet
If medium size is 5ft, that puts it at 20 size categories above medium. So a +80 to spot checks to see it. With your table, the DC to spot the moon at 3000' is 0. Beyond that, it increases. By 4000', a spot check of 20 won't find it. So the average person will not be able to spot the moon most of the time when they look for it. By 5000', the DC is 40, and no one but adventures are able to spot an object the size of the moon.

The actual distance to the Moon: 1.17 x 10^9 feet
Penalty to see it ~= 2.34 x 10^7

The table is awesome for short distances, but at long distances, we would need something else. That or find a way to incorporate size into the equation at least...

[Roguenewb]

I like the idea of rolling 10 or 20 times to cross 600 feet, each time the perception check getting easier and giving lots of oppurtunities for the players to get circumstance bonuses or penalties. Note:this only works if you want this to be a marquee encounter for the adventure. You need to design stuff every 50 feet that can be used/misused, and the players need to be able to sit still and enjoy that crafty challenge. For the insanity of the distance issue, I usually do -1/50 feet, and I divide the 50 feet by the number of steps below perfect vision it is. So, low-light is one step, shadowy is 2, full dark is 3, magical darkness is impossible, raining is one, snowing is one or two, and so on. You could even treat a good trick for a strech as one step, and a bad idea as negative one step (increasing the penalty to -1/60 feet) and so on...

[Curmudgeon]

The table is awesome for short distances, but at long distances, we would need something else.
D&D encounters have a maximum distance at which they can start, depending on the terrain type. The longest possible range is in Plains terrain, at 1440'. Beyond that there are no rules for beginning an encounter, so we would need more rule changes in general rather than just updated calculations.