Fallout: New Vegas. Philosophical Dilemma.

[Dr paradox]

Hello there! I'm stuck with a bit of a problem, philosophically, at a point in Fallout: NV. you see, I'm playing a scientist who's fairly pragmatic in the service of advancement of the species, beyond plain survival. as such, he's been in Mr. House's camp for much of the main plot, liking the idea of a relatively unbiased ruling party with an eye directly towards technological advancement, not to mention being a scientific genius. he's also been in favor of both the Followers of the Apocalypse and the Brotherhood (Set up Hardin as new elder, helped out Veronica, currently has her as companion...)

The problem I have, though, is Mr. House insisting that I destroy this Brotherhood chapter. I greatly admire the Brotherhood's goals of preserving tech, and have grown fond of them as people, not to mention having been travelling with Veronica for the past few weeks, with these people as her family.

as near as I can tell, this leaves me with three options...

1. side with House. The Brotherhood would stand in the way of this advancement, and hoarding tech isn't going to help anyone in the long run, when it could be put to use rebuilding the world. House is the best hope Mankind has.

2. go to the NCR. a centralized authority could do a lot for mankind in the wake of the apocalypse, and they do indeed have science program. they could be talked into letting the brotherhood be, and bring some much needed stability to mankind, which can be a jumping off point for technological and scientific salvation.

3. Independant Vegas. my character, being a genius himself, could basically usurp House's plan and take control of the Strip, leaving me to decide on policy against ALL factions. with the Securitrons upgraded, I have a good chance of fueling the technological advvancement that House had planned, and possibly allying with the Brotherhood to speed up the process.

it's a tricky decision. to kill the brotherhood is to be heartless and ungrateful to Veronica and her ilk. to side with the NCR is to put their ambitions and expansion before the salvation of Mankind, and a scientifically fueled independant Vegas survives only as long as I do, not to mention the fact that there'[s no In Game way to also take over House's ruling strategy - it just becomes basic chaos.

Thoughts? suggestions?

[Cespenar]

3.

I went through the same deal, more or less. I was thinking "I might side with Mr. House after all" right before he popped that "KILL THE BROTHERHOOD" deal out of the blue. Then I turned to NCR myself, but in your case, 3 seems like a good idea too (what with the pragmatic scientist and all).

If you're thinking long term, also note that the if the game doesn't supply you with consequences for that far ahead, you might as well imagine your own aftermath. For example, before your character dies, he might broker an alliance between the Followers, Brotherhood and Vegas, and create some kind of a super-organization that attempts to promote welfare through science, or something like that.

[shadow_archmagi]

1. side with House. The Brotherhood would stand in the way of this advancement, and hoarding tech isn't going to help anyone in the long run, when it could be put to use rebuilding the world. House is the best hope Mankind has.

Keep in mind that the brotherhood doesn't just keep their tech to themselves- They're happy to use force to take tech from others. Essentially, if they had the manpower, they'd wander the wasteland shooting anyone who had so much as a can-opener so that they alone can live in relative comfort and the rest of the world is stuck with spears.

If Mr. House attempted to expand prosperity beyond the Strip and built generators outside of New Vegas, the brotherhood would strip them for parts and shoot the engineers.

[Calemyr]

Keep in mind that the brotherhood doesn't just keep their tech to themselves- They're happy to use force to take tech from others. Essentially, if they had the manpower, they'd wander the wasteland shooting anyone who had so much as a can-opener so that they alone can live in relative comfort and the rest of the world is stuck with spears.

If Mr. House attempted to expand prosperity beyond the Strip and built generators outside of New Vegas, the brotherhood would strip them for parts and shoot the engineers.

The Brotherhood can be reasoned with, is the problem, if the opposing force is sufficient. They can be talked into an alliance with the NCR. But yeah, unless you're going for an NCR ending, the Brotherhood will find some way to screw up your ending.

[Triaxx]

See, here's the problem. A lot of people were able to dislike the Brotherhood. I have never been able to do so. I felt bad for them in Fallout 2, I was a part of them in Fallout Tactics. They helped me take vengeance on the people who had taken my father from me in Fallout 3. I love the Brotherhood. Yes, they have ideals that don't necessarily fit with what the rest of the world truly needs. But I've seen that they can change when they are willing to take a stand.

I don't like the NCR. They are bullies, and I don't like Bullies. At all.

I dispise the Legion. They're not just evil. They're evil for the sake of being evil. And I can't respect that. At all.

House wants me to kill my friends. No one, demands I kill my friends. NO ONE.

There was a mod to restore an option to let him leave them alone, but as far as I can tell it doesn't work since some patch or other.

I always go Independant Vegas, usually with a chart of exactly what to do to make everyone as happy as possible.

[Ailurus]

Based on the character description, I'd say that Yes Man is the more likely ending.

But, for the most part, the Brotherhood is the trigger point for me. And burying them in tons of rubble just doesn't make sense for most of my characters.

[Opperhapsen]

See, here's the problem. A lot of people were able to dislike the Brotherhood. I have never been able to do so. I felt bad for them in Fallout 2, I was a part of them in Fallout Tactics. They helped me take vengeance on the people who had taken my father from me in Fallout 3. I love the Brotherhood. Yes, they have ideals that don't necessarily fit with what the rest of the world truly needs. But I've seen that they can change when they are willing to take a stand.

I don't like the NCR. They are bullies, and I don't like Bullies. At all.

I dispise the Legion. They're not just evil. They're evil for the sake of being evil. And I can't respect that. At all.

House wants me to kill my friends. No one, demands I kill my friends. NO ONE.

There was a mod to restore an option to let him leave them alone, but as far as I can tell it doesn't work since some patch or other.

I always go Independant Vegas, usually with a chart of exactly what to do to make everyone as happy as possible.
...
You don't like bullies and that's why you hate the NCR but not the brotherhood?
Did...
Did you miss everything about the brotherhood?

They're *******s, and could not give less of a crap about the common man.
Technology is their thing, and they will kill you for it.
They believe you are nothing more than a savage playing with things beyond your ken.

The NCR citizens have rights, some semblance of law, and by and large aren't starving.
So what if they swallow up independent settlements? They aren't doing it by force, and their situation is improved by their presence. :smallmad:

[Triaxx]

Peacefully huh? I suppose that's why they marched an army into the Mojave to try and take Vegas?

I suppose you could argue they were moving against Caesar, except that House himself noted their propensity to try and absorb everything and fortified against the threat of force specifically. Cass also notes 'aggressive expansion' policies.

The Mojave Brotherhood are a corruption of the ideals. They were originally gathering technology that would hurt those who used it. They feared a second cataclysm echoing the first and were working to prevent it. They were guardians of technology. Hoarding it so they could dole it out as humanity needed and became ready for it.

Those in the Mojave have taken the idea, of collecting it to keep it out of the hands of those who don't understand it and corrupted it into keeping it out of everyone elses hands as well. That said, I figure that by saving them, there are more of them when the Capital Brotherhood, or the Chicago boys arrive to rescue them and dole out technology in the manner of their forebears.

[Opperhapsen]

Peacefully huh? I suppose that's why they marched an army into the Mojave to try and take Vegas?

I suppose you could argue they were moving against Caesar, except that House himself noted their propensity to try and absorb everything and fortified against the threat of force specifically. Cass also notes 'aggressive expansion' policies.

The Mojave Brotherhood are a corruption of the ideals. They were originally gathering technology that would hurt those who used it. They feared a second cataclysm echoing the first and were working to prevent it. They were guardians of technology. Hoarding it so they could dole it out as humanity needed and became ready for it.

Those in the Mojave have taken the idea, of collecting it to keep it out of the hands of those who don't understand it and corrupted it into keeping it out of everyone elses hands as well. That said, I figure that by saving them, there are more of them when the Capital Brotherhood, or the Chicago boys arrive to rescue them and dole out technology in the manner of their forebears.
Yes.
Peacefully.
They never killed anyone, apart from raiders, for the land.

And no.
The Mojave chapter is how it's supposed to work.
The capital wasteland had abandoned the mission, which is why the outcasts left.

[Opperhapsen]

Peacefully huh? I suppose that's why they marched an army into the Mojave to try and take Vegas?

I suppose you could argue they were moving against Caesar, except that House himself noted their propensity to try and absorb everything and fortified against the threat of force specifically. Cass also notes 'aggressive expansion' policies.

The Mojave Brotherhood are a corruption of the ideals. They were originally gathering technology that would hurt those who used it. They feared a second cataclysm echoing the first and were working to prevent it. They were guardians of technology. Hoarding it so they could dole it out as humanity needed and became ready for it.

Those in the Mojave have taken the idea, of collecting it to keep it out of the hands of those who don't understand it and corrupted it into keeping it out of everyone elses hands as well. That said, I figure that by saving them, there are more of them when the Capital Brotherhood, or the Chicago boys arrive to rescue them and dole out technology in the manner of their forebears.
Yes.
Peacefully.
They never killed anyone, apart from raiders, for the land.

And no.
The Mojave chapter is how it's supposed to work.
The capital wasteland had abandoned the mission, which is why the outcasts left.

[Neon Knight]

Peacefully huh? I suppose that's why they marched an army into the Mojave to try and take Vegas?

Peaceful? The NCR? Lord no! And you should be thankful for that. If they were like the Followers of the Apocalypse, probably the only truly peaceful group in all of Fallout, the Legion would probably be in California by the time of New Vegas.

How is the Brotherhood different, really? The iconic Brotherhood of Steel member isn't the scribe tinkering away at old appliances, its the power armored paladin bearing a Gatling laser. They're inheritors of the United States Army. And they've shown that they will kill for the same things the NCR will kill for, if Helios One is any indicator.



I suppose you could argue they were moving against Caesar, except that House himself noted their propensity to try and absorb everything and fortified against the threat of force specifically. Cass also notes 'aggressive expansion' policies.


House himself is an expansionist with grand schemes for his own pet society. Of course he'll badmouth his competitors. Is he any better? The whole game is his quest for an army with which he can use to turn the tables and impose his own rule. House is a snake. I don't trust him any further than he could walk with his own two legs.

And as for Cass.... she's right, actually. The NCR are people. That's what a government is, a collection of people, usually grouped up into various factions and interests. Some are good, some are bad, and some are just trying to live. For every exploitative *******, there's a conscript infantryman just trying to do his time and a ranger trying to make the world a better place. Cass happens to deal with some of the exploitative *******s more frequently, which colors her opinions. The Crimson Caravan Company and the Van De Graffs are not the NCR's best side, but they are one of many of its faces.

Speaking of groups being people, remember Elijah? That *******? Brotherhood through and through.



The Mojave Brotherhood are a corruption of the ideals. They were originally gathering technology that would hurt those who used it. They feared a second cataclysm echoing the first and were working to prevent it. They were guardians of technology. Hoarding it so they could dole it out as humanity needed and became ready for it.


And what gives the Brotherhood the right to decide that? Who made them the ones that are wise enough to decide who needs what when? The Brotherhood have never sought consent from those that they would so govern by regulating the level of technology they have. They're imposers and tyrants just as much as the NCR. They just happen to be losing, and thus more sympathetic. Rooting for the underdog and all that.



Those in the Mojave have taken the idea, of collecting it to keep it out of the hands of those who don't understand it and corrupted it into keeping it out of everyone elses hands as well. That said, I figure that by saving them, there are more of them when the Capital Brotherhood, or the Chicago boys arrive to rescue them and dole out technology in the manner of their forebears.

Yes, about that... you might remember the Capital Wasteland Outcasts? Those grumpy guys who didn't like the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood abandoning their mission to go play space marines vs. aliens with the Super Mutants? It is quite plausible that any Brotherhood faction that meets the CWB will have the same objections.

There's also the fact that before we reach the Capital Wasteland or Chicago Brotherhoods, we might have to go through the Midwestern Brotherhood, depending on how much of Fallout Tactics they end up keeping. And the Midwestern Brotherhood abandoned their mission to play conqueror and carve out a feudal kingdom in Kansas and the surrounding territories, in which they rule as overlords over a near in slavery serf population, if I recall the end result of that particular shindig.

___

OP: Option 3 sounds like your best bet, but you might seriously consider the NCR. They're not ideal by any means, but when you start excluding all the people who are not ideal, you end up with not many people left. They're an acceptable compromise, who hopefully can be improved in time.

Striking out for an Independent Vegas is also a good option, and might be more sustainable than you think.

[chiasaur11]

Yes.
Peacefully.
They never killed anyone, apart from raiders, for the land.

And no.
The Mojave chapter is how it's supposed to work.
The capital wasteland had abandoned the mission, which is why the outcasts left.

Nah. Mojave is far from the origins too. Used to be, they were just kinda jerks. There were decades of friendly cooperation with the NCR.

Which went down the drain when the guy in charge of the Brotherhood decided to be a jerk.

NCR? Some bad eggs in the north side of the command structure, but generally they're the best chance for the Mojave. With them in charge, everyone can at least win a little, if you work your butt off for it.

Brotherhood shapes up, Followers get better access to supplies, Kings get to remain independent.

And they're the most likely to keep hammering the Legion until it's a smear of blood in the grand canyon, so they're alright by me. There's downsides, but they're minor compared to anyone else in charge. Well, assuming you listen to Hsu and Crocker over Moore.

Edit: Felt I should speak up for the Midwestern brotherhood. A little.

They're jerks, and the NCR is better, yes. If I had a choice, I'd never want to be in their territory. They landed in a harsh land and decided the best way to handle it was to be the meanest, scariest people around.

But they're egalitarian and have room for advancement. No matter who you are (except in the bad ending) you can join up and advance to the top. Mutant, human, ghoul, deathclaw, whatever. You're willing to fight, they'll treat you fair.

They also are willing to let towns have their independence in their territory. The whole serfs-and-soldiers-for-protection deal is a mutual benefit package, even if the brotherhood benefits a lot more.

And half the endings (including the probably canon one) have them moving a step further from being the bad guys. Work on improving education, learn from and live with the locals. Their military only focuses on taking out the guys who deserve it. I mean, they'll probably use unnecessary force and hideously inhumane methods (their standard raider treatment is workcamps that can involve, say, transporting a leaking nuclear bomb without radsuits), but they aren't the worst.

[Neon Knight]

Edit: Felt I should speak up for the Midwestern brotherhood. A little.

They're jerks, and the NCR is better, yes. If I had a choice, I'd never want to be in their territory. They landed in a harsh land and decided the best way to handle it was to be the meanest, scariest people around.

But they're egalitarian and have room for advancement. No matter who you are (except in the bad ending) you can join up and advance to the top. Mutant, human, ghoul, deathclaw, whatever. You're willing to fight, they'll treat you fair.

They also are willing to let towns have their independence in their territory. The whole serfs-and-soldiers-for-protection deal is a mutual benefit package, even if the brotherhood benefits a lot more.

And half the endings (including the probably canon one) have them moving a step further from being the bad guys. Work on improving education, learn from and live with the locals. Their military only focuses on taking out the guys who deserve it. I mean, they'll probably use unnecessary force and hideously inhumane methods (their standard raider treatment is workcamps that can involve, say, transporting a leaking nuclear bomb without radsuits), but they aren't the worst.

You're right. I was being unfair with my earlier description of them. They're certainly better than a lot of groups and they certainly seem to have a better chance of improving than, say, the Mojave Brotherhood.

[Cespenar]

For what it's worth, I played the game more or less doing quests for the NCR so much as I might rename the game to be Fallout: NCR, and despite what I had expected, I can honestly say that they're not half bad.

In fact, that was one of my beefs with the game. Legion is just too silly. There is no difficulty of choosing between sides for a "good" character. Oh, you can nitpick the NCR, apply real world ethical standards and reduce them to a grey, but if you apply the same standards to the Legion, they become so black that they turn orange.

[shadow_archmagi]

In fact, that was one of my beefs with the game. Legion is just too silly. There is no difficulty of choosing between sides for a "good" character. Oh, you can nitpick the NCR, apply real world ethical standards and reduce them to a grey, but if you apply the same standards to the Legion, they become so black that they turn orange.

Yeah, that was my beef, too. It's like

DOWNSIDES TO EACH FACTION:
NCR: Sometimes a little on the aggressive side. Good ideals don't always shine through when politicians are corrupt.

Legion: Endorses slavery. Completely fascist. After conquering a people, makes a point of obliterating their culture so that they can be fully absorbed into the Legion. Enjoys mass horrific executions. Hates women. Eats babies.


Of course, you could argue that the REAL problem for a good character was House vs NCR

[Triaxx]

The midwestern Brotherhood is in Chicago. That's where the initial bunker is in Tactics. As for 'carving a feudal kingdom' I recall that they were doing something similar to what the NCR did. Rolling over various settlements and absorbing them whether they wanted to be or not. On the other hand, while the NCR did it by demanding that they join whether they wanted or not, the Midwest Brotherhood offered protection and tried to be diplomatic about it.

Yes, aggressive diplomacy, but they are a military organization, instead of a supposed democracy. At least they have an excuse. The NCR is an empire hiding under a democracy. Even the Legion have an excuse of being run by a power mad dictator. The NCR are just pretending to be civilized.

That said, I didn't mean the NCR being peaceful as not defending itself. But the idea of them taking settlements peacefully. Naturally you want a standing army to defend your territory. Bitter Springs is an example of their military expansion.

That said, there seems to be a severe problem with the Rockies since the Legion came west again, instead of striking through the presumably weaker groups to the east and growing his army. Instead he turned west to challenge the dominant power rather than fight his way through the rockies.

The Mojave Brotherhood is wrong as to the ideals of the founders. The founders were seeking out technology to distribute it amongst the people, not horde it for themselves. The originals were attempting to keep the peace by giving it out equally. But what can you expect after one nut starts a war.

[Cespenar]

Of course, you could argue that the REAL problem for a good character was House vs NCR

I actually approached that choice with a bias toward House, but off handedly ordering me to mass murder the Brotherhood was a little too much to digest. I capped his own miserable head instead.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

The Mojave Brotherhood is wrong as to the ideals of the founders. The founders were seeking out technology to distribute it amongst the people, not horde it for themselves. The originals were attempting to keep the peace by giving it out equally. But what can you expect after one nut starts a war.

Nope. Brotherhood of Steel has always been about hording tech for themselves. They think the rest of the world is either a.) to stupid to use it or b.) to irresponsible to use it. It is very rare for them to accept outsiders. At their best times, they lived at an uneasy truces with their neighbors.

[Opperhapsen]

The midwestern Brotherhood is in Chicago. That's where the initial bunker is in Tactics. As for 'carving a feudal kingdom' I recall that they were doing something similar to what the NCR did. Rolling over various settlements and absorbing them whether they wanted to be or not. On the other hand, while the NCR did it by demanding that they join whether they wanted or not, the Midwest Brotherhood offered protection and tried to be diplomatic about it. As have the NCR.


Yes, aggressive diplomacy, but they are a military organization, instead of a supposed democracy. At least they have an excuse. The NCR is an empire hiding under a democracy. Even the Legion have an excuse of being run by a power mad dictator. The NCR are just pretending to be civilized.
The leader is elected.
Imperialism is not mutually exclusive with democracy, but NCR's type of Imperialism is the mildest I have ever seen.

That said, I didn't mean the NCR being peaceful as not defending itself. But the idea of them taking settlements peacefully. Naturally you want a standing army to defend your territory. Bitter Springs is an example of their military expansion.
Bitter springs is their only atrocity, and they're all ashamed of it.
Me?
I think it was totally justified.
The Khans used bitter springs like tactics as standard, and have no concept of human rights.


The Mojave Brotherhood is wrong as to the ideals of the founders. The founders were seeking out technology to distribute it amongst the people, not horde it for themselves. The originals were attempting to keep the peace by giving it out equally. But what can you expect after one nut starts a war.
No they pretty much got it right.

[Tengu_temp]

The NCR is not perfect, no. They have some corruption, some jerks. You know, just like a real government.

They're also bringing democracy, safety and stability to a wasteland filled with anarchy, danger and tiny communities struggling to live day by day, and they don't ask people to give away their freedom or dignity. That's much better than living in an anarchy or under the boot of a tyrant.

[Cespenar]

The NCR is not perfect, no. They have some corruption, some jerks. You know, just like a real government.

Actually, they seemed nicer than a real government to me. But theoretically, yes.

[houlio]

Nope. Brotherhood of Steel has always been about hording tech for themselves. They think the rest of the world is either a.) to stupid to use it or b.) to irresponsible to use it. It is very rare for them to accept outsiders. At their best times, they lived at an uneasy truces with their neighbors.

I would say that they are fairly well justified in those beliefs based upon their start at Mariposa, but unfortunately I think no one canonically remembers it anymore or something like that.

[houlio]

Nope. Brotherhood of Steel has always been about hording tech for themselves. They think the rest of the world is either a.) to stupid to use it or b.) to irresponsible to use it. It is very rare for them to accept outsiders. At their best times, they lived at an uneasy truces with their neighbors.

I would say that they are fairly well justified in those beliefs based upon their start at Mariposa, but unfortunately I think no one canonically remembers it anymore or something like that.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Brotherhood of Steel, like every other faction in Fallout, changes over the years and dependent upon the individuals in charge. They were pretty great guys in Fallout because they were necessary, and there was only one group of them, who were all still pretty close to their founder's "Screw the rules, I'm protecting people" mentality.

In Fallout 2, they were...well, frankly they were mostly cut from the game, but there were few enough individual BoS people in Northern California that you can get a good opinion of the one or two you actually meet.

Haven't played Tactics, but as I understand it both they and Lyons's group in 3 are independent factions cut off from the general hierarchy that follow whatever their particular leaders feel is right.

Back in California between 2 and 3 though, the Brotherhood went to war with the NCR, something that was started for no other reason than a disagreement about the distribution of technology. As the NCR grew more sprawling, bureaucratic, and Old World-y, the Brotherhood grew more reclusive and stingy with technology, the two groups growing in opposite philosophical directions (though arguably both negative). A war happened (it never changes, after all), the main body of the Brotherhood (which the Mojave Brotherhood is in contact with, unlike the Midwest and Capital groups) radicalized into nothing more than their core role as technology police. Now, they can be persuaded out of that...but in Fallout: New Vegas, House isn't interested in letting you do that, as he just doesn't care and would rather not deal with naysayers to his technological paradise.

Anyway, all that said, from a roleplaying perspective, it sounds like an Independent ending enforced with the technological fist of Yes Man and the robot army is the way to go.

[Sharoth]

I like the people of the Brotherhood in FO - NV as individuals. As a group, they have to go. As a group in FO - NV, they do not learn and are doomed anyway. They do not care about the people and are techno thieves. As I said to Veronica, so long as I have no high tech, they ignore me. HOWEVER, to improve the New Vegas area, the people NEED high tech and the Brotherhood would try to stop that due to their self centered beliefs. No matter what side I go with, I sadly eleminate the Brotherhood.

[t209]

But they're egalitarian and have room for advancement. No matter who you are (except in the bad ending) you can join up and advance to the top. Mutant, human, ghoul, deathclaw, whatever. You're willing to fight, they'll treat you fair.

About the bold ones, they kick them out of the army and reduced them to second class citizens after the events of Fallout 2 (Politicians were too dumb to use their big guys which could cream the Legions). Though NCR Rangers still have ghouls though. Plus
They wanted to kill deathclaws too.

As have the NCR.

The Khans used bitter springs like tactics as standard, and have no concept of human rights.

No they pretty much got it right.
Even one survivor of Bitter Springs (Bitterroot) agree with NCR attack on the land.

[Triaxx]

Exactly. I've delved a bit more into the background of the capital and midwest groups. The Midwest group was sent east like the Capital group. However, they were sent west because they were splintering and interested in sharing the technology and recruiting for the cause. Hence my confusion.

The Capital group was sent under the default mission and splintered once they'd arrived.

Now, all that said, the Brotherhood teaches me to use power armor. I'm not going to turn on teachers for some electronic jerk. I will not betray my friends for you Odo.

[chiasaur11]

About the bold ones, they kick them out of the army and reduced them to second class citizens after the events of Fallout 2 (Politicians were too dumb to use their big guys which could cream the Legions). Though NCR Rangers still have ghouls though. Plus
They wanted to kill deathclaws too.


I was talking about the Midwestern Brotherhood there, not the NCR. In Fallout: Tactics, you recruit from a pretty big pool.

And some of the best units are ghouls and mutants. Ghoul recruit is pretty much the best thief in the game, and properly perked mutants can do 2 AP bursts with the M2 or REASON. Nothing like 80 rounds of Gauss ammo a turn to show technological and military superiority.

[Wookieetank]

I was talking about the Midwestern Brotherhood there, not the NCR. In Fallout: Tactics, you recruit from a pretty big pool.

And some of the best units are ghouls and mutants. Ghoul recruit is pretty much the best thief in the game, and properly perked mutants can do 2 AP bursts with the M2 or REASON. Nothing like 80 rounds of Gauss ammo a turn to show technological and military superiority.

Out of all the fallout games tactics is the only one I haven't played yet, and this just makes me want to play it more than I already did. Curse you ME3 and your time sucking multiplayer.:smalltongue: Its put a halt to any number of games on my list at the moment.

How does the gameplay of tactics compare to 1 and 2, is is still the turn based combat with vats as an option or something completely different?

[Cespenar]

Out of all the fallout games tactics is the only one I haven't played yet, and this just makes me want to play it more than I already did. Curse you ME3 and your time sucking multiplayer.:smalltongue: Its put a halt to any number of games on my list at the moment.

How does the gameplay of tactics compare to 1 and 2, is is still the turn based combat with vats as an option or something completely different?

It's basically the same, but there's also an option to play the combats "real time", where the action points translate into a kinda-cooldown-system. There are also added elements, like the ability to "interrupt" or "ambush" an unknowing enemy, like in X-com or Jagged Alliance. Overall, I'd say give it a try.

[Triaxx]

Fallout Tactics is to Fallout 1/2 as Icewind Dale is to Baldurs Gate 1/2.

So much more combat, and in this case more indepth combat mechanics, but a much weaker story to compensate. Plus they took some... 'liberties' with the story and setting so you kind of have to turn your brain off. The Vehicles all sound like they have gas engines and you find fuel tanks that explode.

Plus they don't follow the idea of the vaults.

Play it anyway. It's just too awesome to miss.

It's also like a more up close and personal Jagged Alliance. Or so I've been told because I haven't played JA. Yes, Blasphemy, I know.

[chiasaur11]

Out of all the fallout games tactics is the only one I haven't played yet, and this just makes me want to play it more than I already did. Curse you ME3 and your time sucking multiplayer.:smalltongue: Its put a halt to any number of games on my list at the moment.

How does the gameplay of tactics compare to 1 and 2, is is still the turn based combat with vats as an option or something completely different?

Yeah, turn based or real time with AP as a cooldown mechanism. You don't get the gauss minigun until REALLY late in, but Ma Deuce comes in at midgame, and she's a beauty. 15 round bursts, with each bullet doing grenade level damage. You need someone built like a Supermutant to deal with the kick, but she rewards you if you treat her right.

Some fun stuff, and it has solid multi. Catch is, the last few missions get grindy and what was said above. Still, worth 3 bucks. Just be aware of a few things.

1) If you cluster, you're guaranteed to be hit by burst fire. Odd quirk of the mechanics. A lone sniper can take on an army if she keeps her head down and sucks down stims when a bullet tags her. Send in a medic as backup, the medic dies in the bursts, no matter how agile he is.

2) Charisma is useful in this one, oddly. 8 gets you one of the best perks, and just getting 6 can make someone a major asset to the team.

3) Lategame, you'll get missions about a new type of enemy, nastier than anything you've seen. They've stopped a lot of playthroughs dead. Conventional small arms are almost no good against these guys, and unless you've planned for them, you're joining the dead. Your best chance?

Solid slugs in your shotgun, specialized grenades, and acid filled supersoakers, if you have one.

If you've got dedicated heavy or energy weapons soldiers trained up, they're good too. There's a couple real beauties in the energy weapon department. Not the Gauss minigun, but what is?

4) Watch your ammo. I played through with an expert wheeler-dealer, used the most common ammo type whenever I could, looted every body, and the kills mostly went to the sniper, who got good value for every bullet. Still ran a little dry from time to time. Keep track of what you're using, and consider what ammo you're finding when planning equipment.

7.62 FMJ is common throughout the game, and powers a lot of nice gear. It's not sexy, but it's reliable.

5) You will be tempted to build melee combatants. You'll see the high end gear, rippers, power fists, and the like in the store far before you even see a hint of laser pistols. They may even seem to work in the early game.

THIS IS A TRICK. Around midway in the game, melee will become a very bad idea.

6) Buy power armor as soon as possible. You know how awesome it was in Fallout 1 and 2?

It's even better here.

Should be enough to get anyone started. It's 3 bucks on GOG.com until the end of the day, so if you're on the fence, that's a fair price.

[Wookieetank]

Thanks for all the info, will definitely have to look into this one. Sadly missed the sale on gog, but I'm sure another one will come!

[Weezer]

Thanks for all the info, will definitely have to look into this one. Sadly missed the sale on gog, but I'm sure another one will come!

You didn't miss it! The sale is still up http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/fallout

[NeoVid]

I just hit the same point, and it was still a hard one, even though I knew it was coming. The fact that you're given no other options for how to resolve it was disappointing, but makes sense.

My character can think long-term enough that he's still going to side with House. I was able to set the self destruct on the bunker and get out without killing any of the BoS, so my character didn't have to commit a massacre, but still totally removed the Brotherhood's only stronghold in the Mojave. I'd say that fits the character.

The BoS' ideals were to preserve technology so that the remains of human science weren't lost entirely. Well, that's obviously not going to happen, science is actually advancing again... but the Brotherhood won't allow that. The Gun Runners told me that they used to manufacture new energy weapons, but gave up when the BoS kept sacking their shipments and stealing everything.

I then decided that the Mojave Brotherhood were a bunch of useless fanatics who were still obsessively doing something that had been pointless for decades.

[Anteros]

I just hit the same point, and it was still a hard one, even though I knew it was coming. The fact that you're given no other options for how to resolve it was disappointing, but makes sense.

My character can think long-term enough that he's still going to side with House. I was able to set the self destruct on the bunker and get out without killing any of the BoS, so my character didn't have to commit a massacre, but still totally removed the Brotherhood's only stronghold in the Mojave. I'd say that fits the character.

The BoS' ideals were to preserve technology so that the remains of human science weren't lost entirely. Well, that's obviously not going to happen, science is actually advancing again... but the Brotherhood won't allow that. The Gun Runners told me that they used to manufacture new energy weapons, but gave up when the BoS kept sacking their shipments and stealing everything.

I then decided that the Mojave Brotherhood were a bunch of useless fanatics who were still obsessively doing something that had been pointless for decades.

You mean except for all the people you exploded? :smallconfused:

[Triaxx]

I thought that was the CC and the SR killing them to keep down competition?

Of course the Gun Runners wouldn't know that. What with all the dead people.

Question: The Ultimate Edition, if anyone has it, does the DLC come on a separate disc? Or would I need to install a new copy of the game? I have it already so...

On Tactics:

1) Suprisingly little separation is required to mitigate burst effects, and the only time I ever cluster is when I'm doing a pop-kill. even then I find some burst return. Speaking of that, take flexible. It's very useful for all sorts of things.

2) Don't go higher than 6. The 8 point perk is a waste because it occurs so late that it doesn't add perks.

3) Yes and no. Snipers can still do a lot of damage. And shortly before you get Grenade Launchers which are excellent for any small gunners you might have. My Medic usually swaps from his rifle/shotgun combo to shotgun/grenade launcher.

4) Stay with lighter weapons early on. 9mm's/44's/45's. The latter two come in revolver form using less AP giving three shots unaimed instead of two rifle shots. That'll save ammo for your snipers, and give more for burst guns like AK's.

5) Yes and no. True, Melee falls off quickly in power, but early on it's very handy to be able to sneak up and punch out sleeping targets. And since melee needs high strength, those guys can be taken with high melee now and points put into big guns so they can use the larger weapons later on.

6) He's correct. Utterly.

I don't know if the GoG version comes with FTools.exe. If not, NMA might have it. What is FTools? It's a modding system that comes with it. Theoretically you can build levels with it. I use it to build a team. My Warrior is almost always a stealthy sniper.

With FTools, I can build the rest of the team into a much more capable fighting force. Farsight and Stitch the two you get at the start are both Gifted, Farsight gets Finesse, Stitch gets fast shot. Then the three guys you get get regardless of rank become a Grenadier/Heavy weapons guy, a Super Mutant Melee/Heavy Weapons user/ Pack mule with 14 STR, and a Pilot with fast shot, and a pentient for using revolvers.

And it's not nearly as over powered as it might seem. If I'm feeling cruel, Farsight might experience ghoulification, but that tends to make her too weak to function so I only do it for a challenge. And believe me, that first mission is quite the challenge.

[chiasaur11]

I thought that was the CC and the SR killing them to keep down competition?

Of course the Gun Runners wouldn't know that. What with all the dead people.

Question: The Ultimate Edition, if anyone has it, does the DLC come on a separate disc? Or would I need to install a new copy of the game? I have it already so...

On Tactics:

1) Suprisingly little separation is required to mitigate burst effects, and the only time I ever cluster is when I'm doing a pop-kill. even then I find some burst return. Speaking of that, take flexible. It's very useful for all sorts of things.

2) Don't go higher than 6. The 8 point perk is a waste because it occurs so late that it doesn't add perks.

3) Yes and no. Snipers can still do a lot of damage. And shortly before you get Grenade Launchers which are excellent for any small gunners you might have. My Medic usually swaps from his rifle/shotgun combo to shotgun/grenade launcher.

4) Stay with lighter weapons early on. 9mm's/44's/45's. The latter two come in revolver form using less AP giving three shots unaimed instead of two rifle shots. That'll save ammo for your snipers, and give more for burst guns like AK's.

5) Yes and no. True, Melee falls off quickly in power, but early on it's very handy to be able to sneak up and punch out sleeping targets. And since melee needs high strength, those guys can be taken with high melee now and points put into big guns so they can use the larger weapons later on.

6) He's correct. Utterly.

I don't know if the GoG version comes with FTools.exe. If not, NMA might have it. What is FTools? It's a modding system that comes with it. Theoretically you can build levels with it. I use it to build a team. My Warrior is almost always a stealthy sniper.

With FTools, I can build the rest of the team into a much more capable fighting force. Farsight and Stitch the two you get at the start are both Gifted, Farsight gets Finesse, Stitch gets fast shot. Then the three guys you get get regardless of rank become a Grenadier/Heavy weapons guy, a Super Mutant Melee/Heavy Weapons user/ Pack mule with 14 STR, and a Pilot with fast shot, and a pentient for using revolvers.

And it's not nearly as over powered as it might seem. If I'm feeling cruel, Farsight might experience ghoulification, but that tends to make her too weak to function so I only do it for a challenge. And believe me, that first mission is quite the challenge.

1) Depends on the gun. ARs tend to have a really small cone. M2s, you're less lucky.

2) It's not that late. On a regular run, I got it around Junction City. Gets 1 or two extra perks, lets you naturally and permanently boost agility over the human cap. It's essentially free by the end of the game. Considering the rank and pay bonuses from CH on your team leader, it's a decent enough trade off if you're willing to go for it.

3) Regular sniper rifles are still good against meat, but they're mediocre for downing the late game enemy type. A sniper can stay useful, brought Farsight to the endgame with 200+ small guns and no other combat skills, but you need to bring anti-armor gear or get incredibly lucky with crits. Going back to Farsight, she was team champ in kills for the first 3/4s of the game (Century killer for mutants), but she dropped to the middle of the pack when the robot parade started.

4) I tended to go sniper heavy, so, you know, different strokes. Really noticed the drop in killing power when you use pistols. Big magnums don't have the stopping power of the shotguns you get by that point or the range of the rifles. Just personal preference, but the big jump in longarm power by Kansas City made getting in close with a pistol seem obsolete.

5)It's useful early on, but it doesn't need much boosting to reach good enough for early on, and it becomes semi-obsolete by mission... 6 or so.

And by Kansas, it's going to get you killed. Only way I cleaned up there was a dedicated sniper and lots of eye shots.

6) Agreed.

7) Ghouls are actually pretty decent. Lose 2 points of AG, which isn't good, and a little strength, keeping them from the big guns until it's power armor time, but in exchange they get more total stat points, higher luck and perception caps, and a trait that nulls out the perk disadvantage. It's not a bad set up.

[NeoVid]

You mean except for all the people you exploded? :smallconfused:

The self-destruct was loudly announced and on a long timer. Considering I was able to get out with plenty of time left while in sneak mode, there was more than enough time for the Brotherhood to evacuate.

Since I didn't lose karma, and the BoS infamy I got still left me at "accepted," driving them out of the Mojave by eliminating their main base and resources seemed good enough as an option.

The ending still said that the majority died, but anyone who stayed to try and save their gizmoes instead of their lives was Too Dumb To Live.

Also, now that I've finished the game in Mr House's favor, I'm disappointed that he puts so much effort into taking petty revenge on anyone who cooperated with the NCR... or nonpetty revenge, in the case of the Kings.

[Triaxx]

1) Thankfully you don't face a lot of M2's.

2) Q: What's this "divine favor" perk I keep hearing about?
A: See the manual. However, it supposedly ALSO adds 1 to your
best stat (even BEYOND your racial max), and decreases your perk
rate to 2 (i.e. one perk every 2 levels). If you do go for it
(you need LK of 8) your max perks then will be 4 before this one
(3, 6, 9 12). You use the 5th perk (at 15) to get this, then 4
more perks (17, 19, 21, 23), for a total of nine perks total. As
you get 8 perks at a perk rate of 3, this isn't an improvement.

From Kasey Chang's FAQ on GameFAQ's.

3) They seem to be, until you realize you can set the snipers to automatically target a specific body part, like eyes. Or eye like things. So even in CTB, they'll shoot the eyes instead of just in the general direction of the enemy.

4) Uzi's, and MP5's make good up close weapons which is where you're going to be using AK's otherwise. Or where I do. I tend to use pistols only with my pilot, except for fighting the Beastlords, and the bug zone under Preoria. Mardin is usually the last place I use them, since by then I've save enough ammo to reach the end game.

5) Well, considering Mission 8 is where you pick up your first usable heavy weapons, it's not that bad. And given the nature of Mardin, I tend to bring a lot of heavy mines to deal with the Deathclaws, so my melee guy ends up pack muling for a mission. Plus he acts as an ammo carrier for the other guys. And a back up grenadier. He's also a Supermutant so he can still go toe to toe with a deathclaw if need be.

7) Ghouls just seem to be far more fragile. It might be that I tend to treat end as a dump stat for snipers though. In favor of luck and perception. I think that AG penalty really hurts too much to be worth the trade off.

[chiasaur11]

1) Thankfully you don't face a lot of M2's.

2) Q: What's this "divine favor" perk I keep hearing about?
A: See the manual. However, it supposedly ALSO adds 1 to your
best stat (even BEYOND your racial max), and decreases your perk
rate to 2 (i.e. one perk every 2 levels). If you do go for it
(you need LK of 8) your max perks then will be 4 before this one
(3, 6, 9 12). You use the 5th perk (at 15) to get this, then 4
more perks (17, 19, 21, 23), for a total of nine perks total. As
you get 8 perks at a perk rate of 3, this isn't an improvement.

From Kasey Chang's FAQ on GameFAQ's.

3) They seem to be, until you realize you can set the snipers to automatically target a specific body part, like eyes. Or eye like things. So even in CTB, they'll shoot the eyes instead of just in the general direction of the enemy.

4) Uzi's, and MP5's make good up close weapons which is where you're going to be using AK's otherwise. Or where I do. I tend to use pistols only with my pilot, except for fighting the Beastlords, and the bug zone under Preoria. Mardin is usually the last place I use them, since by then I've save enough ammo to reach the end game.

5) Well, considering Mission 8 is where you pick up your first usable heavy weapons, it's not that bad. And given the nature of Mardin, I tend to bring a lot of heavy mines to deal with the Deathclaws, so my melee guy ends up pack muling for a mission. Plus he acts as an ammo carrier for the other guys. And a back up grenadier. He's also a Supermutant so he can still go toe to toe with a deathclaw if need be.

7) Ghouls just seem to be far more fragile. It might be that I tend to treat end as a dump stat for snipers though. In favor of luck and perception. I think that AG penalty really hurts too much to be worth the trade off.

1) Kansas City, St. Louis, and Osceolla are reason enough for the rule. DU M2s. Nasty.

2) FAQ is wrong. Says you need luck, to start. And getting AG to 11 is pretty worth a perk on its own.

3) Even with eyeshots, it takes forever to end the robot parade. And different enemies have eyes in different spots that aren't auto adjusted for.

4) Close quarters is shotgun territory. Damage spread, custom ammo for any situation, and the later ones have burst mode. They're the best guns. If you can't handle a problem with a shotgun, you're using the wrong ammo.

As for drivers, on the rare occasion it comes up I go with grenades. Being able to carry an unlimited supply makes for fun times.

5) Anyone with a heavy weapon is going to chew up melee guys and spit them out. So are turrets. Both are common by late game. Add on that, unless you're cheating, Mutants come after deathclaws, and your first run in is on less than friendly terms, and any melee guy is going to have to fight someone better at the job. Tried melee in Great Bend once.

Funny, but horrible.

You can still technically use them towards the end game, but they pretty much have to have kills fed to them if they're doing anything.

7) If you're not building your own team, Babs is rock solid. Ghouls aren't much more vulnerable than baseline humans. Just they can't use the midrange armor, which makes them seem more vulnerable. Put them in power armor, and they're nearly as good as humans. Just one less AP.

[Dr paradox]

I just hit the same point, and it was still a hard one, even though I knew it was coming. The fact that you're given no other options for how to resolve it was disappointing, but makes sense.

My character can think long-term enough that he's still going to side with House. I was able to set the self destruct on the bunker and get out without killing any of the BoS, so my character didn't have to commit a massacre, but still totally removed the Brotherhood's only stronghold in the Mojave. I'd say that fits the character.

The BoS' ideals were to preserve technology so that the remains of human science weren't lost entirely. Well, that's obviously not going to happen, science is actually advancing again... but the Brotherhood won't allow that. The Gun Runners told me that they used to manufacture new energy weapons, but gave up when the BoS kept sacking their shipments and stealing everything.

I then decided that the Mojave Brotherhood were a bunch of useless fanatics who were still obsessively doing something that had been pointless for decades.

Ultimately, my character decided the same thing. he was considering killing House, before he realized that House was RIGHT about the Brotherhood, and whether or not I'd be able to talk the Brotherhood into agreement, House was still the best chance the Wasteland had for recovering, however smart I THOUGHT I was.

This led to an interesting closing bit to the story.

before I destroyed the brotherhood, my character sent Veronica back to the I88 outpost. let her keep the power armor I had given her, gave her some food, some water, a dinosaur souvineer, what she would need, basically. interestingly enough, after killing the Brotherhood, I was at "Merciful Thug," and so could technically keep adventuring with Veronica. I decided not to. that would just be too cruel.

after I killed the brotherhood, my character spent about a week drunk off his ass on scotch and Med-X in the Atomic Wrangler. on one of his runs to the Mormon Fort to restock on Med-X, he met Arcade Gannon. the two of them started adventuring for a while, resolving the issue with the Kings, helping Doc Henry with his schizophrenia cure, saved the president. eventually, the battle for Hoover Dam was drawing close, and Arcade brought up the Remnants. I helped gather them together, choosing the "Importance of the past" options, and when Arcade left, I knew what had to happen. That very day, Mr. House told me The battle was imminent, so I told him I needed to take care of a few things. I went back to the brotherhood Safehouse, which I had made my home, and loaded up on the weapons I'd need. I grabbed ED-E, and then, approached Veronica.

I like to think that what followed was a tense, angry discussion, where I laid out my reasons for what I did, and only her history with me kept her from killing me on sight. I'd like to think that I convinced her that I needed her help because she was the best fighter my character had ever seen, and that she was his best friend. I'd like to think that when I slung on my power armor, and gave her a new set, and she, ED-E, and I, the trio that had adventured together longest out of my companion setups, made the journey to Hoover Dam to finish what had begun in Goodsprings, that it was an ending to remember.

But yeah, I would have liked to see the ending talk a bit more about the sorts of GOOD things House did. it might have focused too much on him as totalitarian dictator.

[NeoVid]

But yeah, I would have liked to see the ending talk a bit more about the sorts of GOOD things House did. it might have focused too much on him as totalitarian dictator.

Same, though the good Mr House does is also supposed to be in the long term, and the endings mostly talked about the near future.

Though I got worried about the dictator thing when you talk with Mr House right before the ending starts, and there's a moment when he mentions making sure the trains run on time...

I'm really hoping the House Always Wins turns out to be the canonical ending for NV, it would mean there's another chance for the future in the setting.

Also, after the game ended, I realized that my character would wait a few years to see if House can be trusted, and eventually give House a chance to communicate with the Think Tank...

[Triaxx]

1) I tend not to engage the fort in St Louis, Kansas City and Osceolla are both sniper fests. I recall breaking arms for the clean up in KC and using ambushes with rings. It prevents cone effects and keeps the enemy from concentrating in one direction.

2) Umm... that's exactly what you need, is 8 Luck. What are you talking about?

3) Actually it does if you set it to automatically aim for eyes. That said, the snipers should definitely be behind some heavy weapons. I'm only saying they aren't totally worthless.

4) True, but early on you may not have enough of the good shotguns to go around. I usually don't.

5) I understand that, and that's why I say use them as Heavy Weapons guys after mission 6.

7) Babs is capable, but I find that Farsight makes a better sniper and by the time I can get Babs, she's far enough behind that it's not worth the effort to bring her up to snuff.

[chiasaur11]

1) I tend not to engage the fort in St Louis, Kansas City and Osceolla are both sniper fests. I recall breaking arms for the clean up in KC and using ambushes with rings. It prevents cone effects and keeps the enemy from concentrating in one direction.

2) Umm... that's exactly what you need, is 8 Luck. What are you talking about?

3) Actually it does if you set it to automatically aim for eyes. That said, the snipers should definitely be behind some heavy weapons. I'm only saying they aren't totally worthless.

4) True, but early on you may not have enough of the good shotguns to go around. I usually don't.

5) I understand that, and that's why I say use them as Heavy Weapons guys after mission 6.

7) Babs is capable, but I find that Farsight makes a better sniper and by the time I can get Babs, she's far enough behind that it's not worth the effort to bring her up to snuff.

1) Not taking the fort?

What are you? Chicken?

If you know about the burst rule, it's easy enough to duck most of the time. But it's always worth knowing.

Especially on the delivering end. Ma Deuce is a classy, classy dame.

2) Divine Favor is a reward for 8 Charisma. Nothing to do with luck. And it's good enough to maybe be worth the points. I mean, Int and Per are useful, but pumping them to full doesn't do much more good than just. STR is made obsolete by drugs and power armor. End isn't that useful to begin with. It's a sacrifice, but getting promotions faster means better gear earlier. Trade off worth considering.

3) You sure? Because I'm pretty sure an automatic eye shot on, say, humans, goes for a different spot on Deathclaws. Comes from different listing tables.

4) Get a good thief, you can get a bunch of Jackhammers around the Mutant stuff. You can get Neosteads for everyone by the end of Brahmin Woods. And the humble Ithica should be solid up until the mutants.

If you don't have good shotguns, you aren't looking hard enough.

5) Just can't see much reason to have a dedicated melee expert at all. At most, it's a side skill for a gunslinger.

7) Babs has 44 SPECIAL points, even with a penalty trait. Switch that for Gifted, she's got 52. As far as I can tell, that's the most anyone has. 45 if you get fast shot or fear the reaper instead, which beats anyone else without gifted. Even ignoring that, she's got a free bonus perk, even if it's mediocre, she's got solid stats for any non-gunner role (including team leader), she's the best thief in the game, and a few other bonuses.

With the way XP works in the game, one later game mission pretty much destroys the XP gap between her and Farsight.

I mean, as the sole sniper or something, I wouldn't make her my first pick. But she fills any non-heavy weapons role with aplomb. Plus, the better skill gain then Farsight makes her a good choice for switching over to energy weapons.

[Triaxx]

1) I do get a bit into the fort, just enough to duck through the ditch on the east side, and pick up the chest there. Then I exit before I get pinned down by a couple of mutants who always seem to tag whoever goes in.

2) You're right. The math still shows it's a waste though. That one perk doesn't make a difference.

3) It did on the unpatched versions. They fixed it with one of the patches I believe.

4) I prefer snipers, so if they're close enough for shotguns, something has gone horribly wrong.

5) Then you haven't watched one wipe out the second mission entirely with 'Raider was torn in half like a phone book'.

[Opperhapsen]

Divine favor seems like a worse version of gifted to be honest.
Maybe it's just me, but +1 to a single attribute doesn't outweigh the reduced perk rate.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Yeah, that was my beef, too. It's like

DOWNSIDES TO EACH FACTION:
NCR: Sometimes a little on the aggressive side. Good ideals don't always shine through when politicians are corrupt.

Legion: Endorses slavery. Completely fascist. After conquering a people, makes a point of obliterating their culture so that they can be fully absorbed into the Legion. Enjoys mass horrific executions. Hates women. Eats babies.


Of course, you could argue that the REAL problem for a good character was House vs NCR

Y'know, I find it funny, when deciding on a faction to support, it's always the NCR that never even gets a second thought, not the Legion. Don't get me wrong, eight times out of ten I pick House because...he is the best option at the time, but the Legion still seems like a viable alternative to me.

A good alternative? Ehhh...no. But I can see the Legion getting the job done, the job in question being uniting humanity back into one cohesive whole again. It's tactics are despicable, albeit effective, and I was all prepared to murder every Legionarre I saw...until I talked to Caeser himself. I don't know why, but he seemed to have a grasp on the situation and he's not doing what he's doing for himself. He looked at history for the best way to weld people together into one nation and came up with Rome, which is still remembered as one of the greatest empires the world has ever known (and it eventually become a democracy, keep in mind). I don't believe the Mojave needs democracy, freedoms, or other basic privileges that we have today at the moment. They're nice and make life more bearable, but they aren't necessary.

What the Mojave needs is a powerful force to unify the region under a single rule. The NCR looks incompetent or corrupt and my character can't live forever so I don't see his/her influence on the region out-living him/her by a large margin...But House and the Legion? I can see them changing the region for the better.

House is a pre-apocalypse genius with intimate knowledge of the Old World technology and the mechanical detachment to do what needs to be done while keeping the people happy. I actually disapprove of the way he lets the gangs keep their identities and their own business to themselves, I see it as a recipe for dissent and rebellion (look at Benny), but House is the one with the best tech and the capability to fabricate it while keeping life bearable. More importantly, he's looking at the long-game, which he was doing before the world ended.

The Legion, for as despicable as it's actions are, also has a solid plan. Conquer all the tribes along the way, peacefully or not, and give them a single cohesive cultural identity that they can all care about. It has a charismatic leader who knows what he's doing and is laying groundwork for the future. It has a massive army that can enforce change on the region. And it's brutality is probably one of the best things for the world as it is, it'll force people to work together for it's own betterment, but at least they're working together for the same purpose. It's survival at the cost of freedoms, but survival nonetheless. Compared to the NCR...they only seem to have survived as long as they have because they have the better guns then everyone else. That's...that's not a strong point in my mind. Bear in mind though, I've only played FO 3 and FO:NV, so it's face in New Vegas is the only one I've seen.

[chiasaur11]

Divine favor seems like a worse version of gifted to be honest.
Maybe it's just me, but +1 to a single attribute doesn't outweigh the reduced perk rate.

You're misreading.

It improves your perk rate.

If you were patient enough to grind to 100, it'd be more or less the best perk ever. As is, it's just very much worth the investment. Plus, that one stat point can break caps. If you want 11 natural agility on a gunner, it's the only game in town.

As for taking the Legion as an option?

It's pretty much the stupidest thing you can do. NCR's sin is overreaching.

Legion's doing the same thing, but without the virtues, plus they don't have the whole democratic tradition to sturdy them.

Oliver dies? They get a new general. Maybe even Hsu, which would be an improvement.

President dies or sucks? They get a new President.

Chesterton said the virtue of living things is they're good at fixing themselves. Metal's tougher, but when it breaks, it's broken.

By that metric, the Legion's dead already. Just going through the paces. NCR's not necessarily healthy, but it's breathing. In the wasteland, that's a feat.

If Caesar dies, that's it. Talk to Joshua Graham, the man who knows the Legion as well as anyone, he confirms it. Figures the death spiral will be nasty, but final. And Caesar already has a brain tumor, so that's just perfect.

And the whole assimilation thing? It's been tried. Not a good play long term. Loses alternate viewpoints, so you've got tunnel vision, and it makes people hate you. The original Roman empire had sense enough to see it. Long as you paid your taxes and a little worship to Divus Iulius, most tribes could keep some level of independent identity. Carrot and stick. (The stick is still brutal crucifixion. Said the first edition was better. Not that it was anywhere near nice.)

Don't have much faith in House either. Sure, he's smart. But he doesn't understand people's motivations and is big into grudges. Not exactly promising.

Independent or NCR. Upside to independent is you aren't overextending a country under strain already. Upside to NCR is you get a lot more resources to make people play nice.

And the NCR's overstretch is there, but it's overstated in most of these arguments. The armored divisions, the Rangers, and most of the other good toys weren't in Vegas until the endgame. They spend the entire game in the middle of a war with the Brotherhood of Steel.

They're still up to a fight. And the best they've got, made with almost civilized methods, scares the tar out of everything the Legion has.

Regular rangers, an average Legionary assumes they can't be beat in single combat. The vets?

Everyone is terrified of them. Meanwhile, the Rangers crack wise about how they're going to rip Lanius to shreds.

All in all, barring player involvement, I prefer democracy for all its faults. And I always bet on the side with close air support.

[Cespenar]

I can get around House, Indep and NCR, but about Legion, I have to agree with Chiasaur here. I'd elaborate, but he laid out the points nice and proper.

So... independent ending is kind of an open one. The real question is House vs. NCR.

To approach this with cold hard logic, we need unification. There's no way to give the whole NCR's control to House, obviously. But the reverse? It's very much possible. That's the whole deal. Consolidate power, only way that you can. (Except in peace, but the wasteland is far from that.)

If there were no NCR, I'd accept the Legion, but when there is already a large body of power, raising a second one is never a good idea for preserving human lives. Unless you do that with the plan to peacefully join the first one at the end, but no one is that selfless.

[houlio]

I feel that the Legion is unnecessarily evulz and shortsighted, and I wish that Obsidian had them more neutral so they'd more of an alright option. Can't get everything I guess, but, anyways, I think there's a lot to be said for Caesar's idea to unify everybody. Not only politically, but on a more ideological basis too. If you can get everyone to agree, then nobody will have to fight anymore kinda deal. While you definitely give up things like freedom and sovereignty, there's a lot more for peace of mind. Also, although terribly brutal and generally not-nice, they do effectively seem to finish up things like corruption where they go, which seems to exist in the NCR at every single level. Even among the Rangers. At least the Legion people you interact seem to believe that what they're doing is worth it, the NCR doesn't really seem to inspire confidence in its people too much.

/Random Ramblings

Unfortunately, the Legion is the way it is, so I can't really support siding with them either.

[Callos_DeTerran]

As for taking the Legion as an option?

It's pretty much the stupidest thing you can do. NCR's sin is overreaching.

Legion's doing the same thing, but without the virtues, plus they don't have the whole democratic tradition to sturdy them.

Oliver dies? They get a new general. Maybe even Hsu, which would be an improvement.

President dies or sucks? They get a new President.

Chesterton said the virtue of living things is they're good at fixing themselves. Metal's tougher, but when it breaks, it's broken.

By that metric, the Legion's dead already. Just going through the paces. NCR's not necessarily healthy, but it's breathing. In the wasteland, that's a feat.

If Caesar dies, that's it. Talk to Joshua Graham, the man who knows the Legion as well as anyone, he confirms it. Figures the death spiral will be nasty, but final. And Caesar already has a brain tumor, so that's just perfect.

And the whole assimilation thing? It's been tried. Not a good play long term. Loses alternate viewpoints, so you've got tunnel vision, and it makes people hate you. The original Roman empire had sense enough to see it. Long as you paid your taxes and a little worship to Divus Iulius, most tribes could keep some level of independent identity. Carrot and stick. (The stick is still brutal crucifixion. Said the first edition was better. Not that it was anywhere near nice.)

And the NCR's overstretch is there, but it's overstated in most of these arguments. The armored divisions, the Rangers, and most of the other good toys weren't in Vegas until the endgame. They spend the entire game in the middle of a war with the Brotherhood of Steel.

See, I don't agree. How is the Legion over-reaching? Over-reaching implies that a lack of resources, which is the exact opposite of the Legion's problem (at least in the Mojave). They have the resources. And how exactly is democracy a sturdy-inducing factor in this kind of environment? For what benefits it does have, it has all the more faults especially in the world of Fallout. Don't like the president? Sure, you can get rid of him, but you also have to go through the process of impeaching him and getting a replacement (as opposed to Caeser's second in command assuming his throne).

The Legion's generals die? They get replaced (I'm not even sure why you mentioned the NCR doing this like it was special, it's just common sense to replace an officer if they are killed).

Now, I don't know who Joshua Graham is (Is that the Burning Man? Didn't play any of the DLC), but why's he a better say on the Legion then the man who started it? Point of fact, you can cure Caeser during the course of the game. Hell, Caesar himself doesn't need to live forever, just long enough to groom a heir to take his place. Nor is the assimilation thing bad. It's all about context. Sure, it gives your nation/group tunnel vision, but that's only bad if you have other options or paths open to you. In the Wasteland(s), survival is the top priority. You can afford tunnel vision, you could even say you need it because if you get distracted by other things then you die. More importantly, why do you assume there's no carrot for those who join the Legion?

Hell, Caesar mentions that a fair number of tribes have joined the Legion willingly, and are treated better for it. More importantly, they'd only hate the Legion if A) they had something better in the first place and B) they were one of the tribes forced into joining the Legion...and that's less 'forced' and more 'majority of the people killed (brutally) as an example to the others while the remaining ones are enslaved'. As for giving the conquered tribes an independent identity...I'd say that's one of the reasons Rome fell and the Legion might not (depending on your actions obviously, an army of robots does wonders for curtailing expansion plans on anyone).

...And for the record, for all the bragging the NCR might do about the Legion, they're just as scared of the Legion. :smalltongue: Both at how well the Legion is doing and the desperate fear that the Legion might somehow get better tech...which would screw the NCR over five ways to Sunday. Remember the off-hand mentions that NCR troops were ordered to destroy their weapons (or throw them over the side of the dam) if they thought they were going to die or get captured? Those veterans were worried about what the Legions troops would do with proper arms, cause the Legion isn't worried about what they have to do to win.

[Anteros]

I can get around House, Indep and NCR, but about Legion, I have to agree with Chiasaur here. I'd elaborate, but he laid out the points nice and proper.

So... independent ending is kind of an open one. The real question is House vs. NCR.

To approach this with cold hard logic, we need unification. There's no way to give the whole NCR's control to House, obviously. But the reverse? It's very much possible. That's the whole deal. Consolidate power, only way that you can. (Except in peace, but the wasteland is far from that.)

If there were no NCR, I'd accept the Legion, but when there is already a large body of power, raising a second one is never a good idea for preserving human lives. Unless you do that with the plan to peacefully join the first one at the end, but no one is that selfless.

I really wanted an option to turn my robot legion over to the NCR during my first play through. I felt genuinely upset that there wasn't one.

[chiasaur11]

See, I don't agree. How is the Legion over-reaching? Over-reaching implies that a lack of resources, which is the exact opposite of the Legion's problem (at least in the Mojave). They have the resources. And how exactly is democracy a sturdy-inducing factor in this kind of environment? For what benefits it does have, it has all the more faults especially in the world of Fallout. Don't like the president? Sure, you can get rid of him, but you also have to go through the process of impeaching him and getting a replacement (as opposed to Caeser's second in command assuming his throne).

The Legion's generals die? They get replaced (I'm not even sure why you mentioned the NCR doing this like it was special, it's just common sense to replace an officer if they are killed).

Now, I don't know who Joshua Graham is (Is that the Burning Man? Didn't play any of the DLC), but why's he a better say on the Legion then the man who started it? Point of fact, you can cure Caeser during the course of the game. Hell, Caesar himself doesn't need to live forever, just long enough to groom a heir to take his place. Nor is the assimilation thing bad. It's all about context. Sure, it gives your nation/group tunnel vision, but that's only bad if you have other options or paths open to you. In the Wasteland(s), survival is the top priority. You can afford tunnel vision, you could even say you need it because if you get distracted by other things then you die. More importantly, why do you assume there's no carrot for those who join the Legion?

Hell, Caesar mentions that a fair number of tribes have joined the Legion willingly, and are treated better for it. More importantly, they'd only hate the Legion if A) they had something better in the first place and B) they were one of the tribes forced into joining the Legion...and that's less 'forced' and more 'majority of the people killed (brutally) as an example to the others while the remaining ones are enslaved'. As for giving the conquered tribes an independent identity...I'd say that's one of the reasons Rome fell and the Legion might not (depending on your actions obviously, an army of robots does wonders for curtailing expansion plans on anyone).

...And for the record, for all the bragging the NCR might do about the Legion, they're just as scared of the Legion. :smalltongue: Both at how well the Legion is doing and the desperate fear that the Legion might somehow get better tech...which would screw the NCR over five ways to Sunday. Remember the off-hand mentions that NCR troops were ordered to destroy their weapons (or throw them over the side of the dam) if they thought they were going to die or get captured? Those veterans were worried about what the Legions troops would do with proper arms, cause the Legion isn't worried about what they have to do to win.

1) Did you even try the high speech to Lanius? There's even another one with (lie) in front of it to confirm the argument's legit. Legion tries to expand more, it's doomed. They aren't showing it as much as the NCR since the whole no free speech, no medicine, no food for slaves bit means they don't have as many demands obvious, but it's there.

2) It's the President who's key here. Caesar is irreplaceable. NCR's given several top men the boot when they failed. Oh, and on the subject of generals?

3) Josh Graham, the Burning Man, cofounded the Legion. He got fired. As in lit on fire, tossed in the Grand Canyon, and left for the armies of radioactive monsters.

Didn't take.

He's got all the intel Caesar had, only he had a proper humbling for some prospective. Caesar's living the high life, which means he's going to rationalize all his choices if they're wrong. If he actually believed his claptrap, he wouldn't keep that robot for brain surgery. Just a raider leader who can talk a lot slicker.

(By the way, Graham's a total badass. After the whole "lit on fire" thing, he managed to walk back to civilization. Caesar's made his death a major priority, killed hundreds of innocents to try for it. And every single Legion member sent after Joshua. The Burned Man is not to be trifled with. Nice guy, too. Found religion again after the whole horrible firey pain thing.

Almost forgot. He's immune to chems, so the surviving is on pure will. He feels the pain fresh every time he changes bandages. )

4) Survival? Cockroaches survive. I've always fallen into the whole "Better to die on your feet" side of the debates, myself. NCR's doing a good job of surving with some basic human decency. Over a century of growth with standards of living up there with first world nations and no rape camps. I know, impossible. But there you have it. There's Rangers who've been around longer than the Legion. Not exactly a long sample time.

5) The "Assimilation" is the murder of the old and the sick, the enslaving of women and children, and the destruction of culture. Actually look at the evidence instead of nodding at every word Caesar says and hoping he gives you a doggy treat, the facts come down pretty clean.

6) Lot of the NCR is.

Veteran rangers, barring Hanlon? They ain't.

Caesar runs brutal, darwinian games. 40 is ancient in the legion. The NCR just trains anyone who shows potential, and they get people who terrify Fiends. You know, maniacs who are on so many chems they don't know what fear is.

The best the Bear has? Veteran Rangers. 20 years continuous service, minimum. Longer than most legion boys have been alive. No limits by race or sex, either. Got ghouls serving if they can still kill armies from a quarter mile away. Even the best the legion has is terrified of them. Caesar's done everything to make his army fearless.

In the face of the Rangers, he failed. Says something good about the NCR that when the baddies are doing everything possible to make hardasses at the cost of anything worth saving. NCR does it better as a privately run civilian charity.

NCR is civilization. City lights. Hospitals. New weapons and armor being manufactured. Progress, and the glorious destiny of the west.

Caesar grabs old football gear and car parts, calls it a day.

The real fun bit?

Caesar's committing all his armies. It's his Carthage.

NCR, this isn't anything. Most folks back home don't care, no draft, lots of other fights they're busy with. They win, they get to keep protecting people they don't particularly like (and, to be fair, lots of nice electrical power.). They lose, the people they don't like die horribly, and there's a new President elected.

Don't tread on the bear.

(Oh, and legally, they've got the right of it too. See, they made a deal with the Vegas based authorities. Control of the territory in exchange for protection. Both parties were fine with it. Which is where someone brings up House.

He's a johnny-come-lately. NCR had scouts in Vegas before he started doing anything, and they already had a deal with the Desert Rangers, who'd protected the area for well over a century. House just desperately scrambled to establish a semblance of a prior claim. NCR took his deal to avoid more war, gave him good terms. Moore double crossed him, but he was planning the trick first. Also, Cassandra Moore is a murderous sociopath who should never have been put in command of anything. Not exactly representative.

House was awake for decades without helping Vegas. Why I don't trust him. Best bet? He's just playing for himself.)

[Callos_DeTerran]

1) Did you even try the high speech to Lanius? There's even another one with (lie) in front of it to confirm the argument's legit. Legion tries to expand more, it's doomed. They aren't showing it as much as the NCR since the whole no free speech, no medicine, no food for slaves bit means they don't have as many demands obvious, but it's there.

2) It's the President who's key here. Caesar is irreplaceable. NCR's given several top men the boot when they failed. Oh, and on the subject of generals?

3) Josh Graham, the Burning Man, cofounded the Legion. He got fired. As in lit on fire, tossed in the Grand Canyon, and left for the armies of radioactive monsters.

Didn't take.

He's got all the intel Caesar had, only he had a proper humbling for some prospective. Caesar's living the high life, which means he's going to rationalize all his choices if they're wrong. If he actually believed his claptrap, he wouldn't keep that robot for brain surgery. Just a raider leader who can talk a lot slicker.

(By the way, Graham's a total badass. After the whole "lit on fire" thing, he managed to walk back to civilization. Caesar's made his death a major priority, killed hundreds of innocents to try for it. And every single Legion member sent after Joshua. The Burned Man is not to be trifled with. Nice guy, too. Found religion again after the whole horrible firey pain thing.

Almost forgot. He's immune to chems, so the surviving is on pure will. He feels the pain fresh every time he changes bandages. )

4) Survival? Cockroaches survive. I've always fallen into the whole "Better to die on your feet" side of the debates, myself. NCR's doing a good job of surving with some basic human decency. Over a century of growth with standards of living up there with first world nations and no rape camps. I know, impossible. But there you have it. There's Rangers who've been around longer than the Legion. Not exactly a long sample time.

5) The "Assimilation" is the murder of the old and the sick, the enslaving of women and children, and the destruction of culture. Actually look at the evidence instead of nodding at every word Caesar says and hoping he gives you a doggy treat, the facts come down pretty clean.

6) Lot of the NCR is.

Veteran rangers, barring Hanlon? They ain't.

Caesar runs brutal, darwinian games. 40 is ancient in the legion. The NCR just trains anyone who shows potential, and they get people who terrify Fiends. You know, maniacs who are on so many chems they don't know what fear is.

The best the Bear has? Veteran Rangers. 20 years continuous service, minimum. Longer than most legion boys have been alive. No limits by race or sex, either. Got ghouls serving if they can still kill armies from a quarter mile away. Even the best the legion has is terrified of them. Caesar's done everything to make his army fearless.

In the face of the Rangers, he failed. Says something good about the NCR that when the baddies are doing everything possible to make hardasses at the cost of anything worth saving. NCR does it better as a privately run civilian charity.

NCR is civilization. City lights. Hospitals. New weapons and armor being manufactured. Progress, and the glorious destiny of the west.

Caesar grabs old football gear and car parts, calls it a day.

The real fun bit?

Caesar's committing all his armies. It's his Carthage.

NCR, this isn't anything. Most folks back home don't care, no draft, lots of other fights they're busy with/ They win, they get to keep protecting people they don't particularly like. They lose, the people they don't like die horribly, and there's a new President elected.

Don't tread on the bear.

In short, because I want to sleep and I doubt you'll change your view point on this...

1) Never even meet Lanius. I played up to a certain point in the game, got bored, and played something else. My knowledge of the end game comes from wikis and TvTropes to resolve what few burning questions I wanted answered. Frankly though, the Legion doesn't need to expand anymore if it takes the Mojave, at least for a time. For one, it'll need to spend time to consolidate it's claim to the region (aka, driving out/subjugating the gangs/tribes in the area). More importantly, Caesar says New Vegas is his Rome, it's meant to be the center of his Legion.

2) That's not a point in the NCR's favor, again. There's nothing that says their elected President will be a competent individual and if he/she/it isn't, then you have to go through the process of getting rid of them and electing a new one all over again. I'd rather have a single leader with a clear and immediate line of succession then a democracy any day of the week.

3)...What's the point? Also, Caesar is hardly living the high life. The life of a conqueror isn't easy, by any stretch. More importantly, Caesar appreciates people who don't just 'yes-man' to him, to a point. He's open to discussion on how to accomplish his goals.

4) Dieing on your feet is a noble sentiment, but death is death. If someone isn't actively acting in the interest of their own survival, the survival of their species, or the propagation of their own genetic stock (all basic biological urges) then they've failed as a life-form. If it comes down to the human race surviving or it's last remnants having running water and the freedom to complain about the crappy conditions, then survival is my choice.

5) I have looked at the evidence, doesn't change my opinion. Lots of people say the end justifies the means and, usually, I'll argue that point. But in a post-apocalyptic scenario, the means will always be justified if it means the survival of the species in one form or another.

6) ...Scaring Fiends (if they even do) doesn't impress me. At a certain point, you'd be so drugged up a rock would become terrifying depending on the drugs you took. The Rangers don't impress me. At all. Maybe it's because a drugged out of her mind random woman from the Wasteland, half-dead from starvation and thirst managed to kill three of them without much difficulty. Maybe because I find their very pride offensive and their actual ability lacking or the organization they represent but...the Rangers don't scare me one whit. It doesn't matter who they recruit or how if they're out-numbered 50+-to-1 (Pulled that number out of my arse, I have no idea how big the Legion is). NCR is nothing but a bunch of people clinging to the glory and 'civilization' that put people in the mess they're currently in right now in the various Wastelands. I cannot, and will not, endorse that when there is alternatives. House may be stuck in the past himself, but he looks to the future and can do it for far longer then the NCR can. Caesar may be a brutal dictator, but he's trying to make something new.

More importantly, Caesar is committing his all to the Mojave. There is no turning back for him or the Legion, they won't stop until they've taken the Mojave Wasteland or been wiped out trying. Compared to that, the half-arsed measures of the NCR...well...I don't care if my characters ARE the Protagonist, they've never been stupid enough to join a side that doesn't take a war seriously.

...This was longer then I thought it would be, sleeeeppppp.

[chiasaur11]

Alright. One last try at beating some basic sense in.

1) Then you don't have the full story. You're taking Caesar at his word.

Looking at all the angles, story's not the same. Never go on one data point. It's a gamble. And if New Vegas taught us anything, it's that the House tends to cheat.

2) Of course there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee of anything, ever. Even physics is just playing the odds. But if the new President is bad, he can be replaced just as easy.

Living things, like I said. They break, they get fixed. Bit of a hassle, but it beats being dead any day of the week, and twice on Sundays. People talk about how great men should run things, but you get fools just as often, with no way to boot 'em without breaking the whole system.

What was it Churchill said?

"Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Man knew his business.

3) Point is, Caesar has no reason to turn back on his ideas. He's the least objective judge. Look at Vegas gamblers. They keep putting money in, expecting to eventually win. Sunk cost fallacy. And some of them can make pretty good arguments for why they'll win this time.

Again, Joshua Graham was there from the start. If anyone else is any judge, it's him. And he says Caesar's a miracle worker, but he's it. Once he's dead, the Legion falls apart. Caesar likes to think of himself as Gaius Julius. From the outside, the death arc looks closer to Alexander.

4) Survival at any costs? Weak philosophy. Even the Legion doesn't practice it. If they did, they'd have the sense to use some basic medicine.

5) The ends and means are both vile. If it was a strictly utilitarian evil, I'd be against, and if it was the only alternative to death, I'd be against, but I'd see the point. Thing is, neither plays here. The Legion's only guarantee is your life sucks. They run inefficient systems (slavery, lack of automation, only primitive medicine), and other people have thrived with some basic decency. Again, the NCR has more than a century of success. People have lived whole long, happy lives in its embrace. Legion's... not had as long to be tested.

6) Fiends are fearless. Part of the talk about them. Part of their description, considering their primary drug is Psycho, military tech built to make soldier brave enough to attack machine gun nests with their teeth. But they give advice. You see the black armor, run. Legion doesn't go quite as far, but the general chatter there puts basic Rangers up there with their best. They see the armor, don't matter what Caesar's done. They wet themselves. Hooah.

Of COURSE the PC can kill Rangers. PCs can kill anyone. (Legion fails that metric even worse. In game stats, their famed Centurions get taken by Rangers 2:1. If the rangers are using slow firing sniper rifles from three feet away and the Legion has fancy melee gear. Best they've got ain't jack.) Fallout PCs make Silver Age Superman look like a slacker. They can soak AM rounds like water, slow down time to superpunch people, turn invisible, run at superhuman speeds, and if all else fails, they can turn back time and reduce the relative power of the entire universe. If you couldn't kill them, you'd be complaining about the game railroading you.

NCR's clinging to the old democratic traditions, yeah. But they didn't screw over the world. That was tyranny. Shadow governments running the show. Racism. General unpleasantness. Enclave's got the Continuity of Government stuff. NCR fought them. Won.

Caesar ain't doing something new. He's doing something old, but worse. He says as much himself. The Glory that was Rome.

Even ignoring the Nero cosplay we've had "great men doing hard things" enough, with crushing of individual identity for the glory of their cause. Mostly, the cause ends up being mass graves and rape rooms.

(Cute how the NCR is called out for not being enthusiastic, then called arrogant when they are, by the way.)

And you don't see the problem with the committing all vs half assed here? It's in the NCR's favor.

If a man can fight you even with one hand tied behind his back, he's a better fighter than you. And it means, should he pull his other hand out, he's going to rip you apart.

The Legion isn't strong. It's lucky.

(Well, okay. Lanius is strong. Dude's a nightmare walking. But he's also pretty much got swiss cheese between the ears judging from his post victory tactics.)

[Ailurus]

See, I don't agree. How is the Legion over-reaching? Over-reaching implies that a lack of resources, which is the exact opposite of the Legion's problem (at least in the Mojave). They have the resources. And how exactly is democracy a sturdy-inducing factor in this kind of environment? For what benefits it does have, it has all the more faults especially in the world of Fallout. Don't like the president? Sure, you can get rid of him, but you also have to go through the process of impeaching him and getting a replacement (as opposed to Caeser's second in command assuming his throne).

The Legion's generals die? They get replaced (I'm not even sure why you mentioned the NCR doing this like it was special, it's just common sense to replace an officer if they are killed).

Now, I don't know who Joshua Graham is (Is that the Burning Man? Didn't play any of the DLC), but why's he a better say on the Legion then the man who started it? Point of fact, you can cure Caeser during the course of the game. Hell, Caesar himself doesn't need to live forever, just long enough to groom a heir to take his place. Nor is the assimilation thing bad. It's all about context. Sure, it gives your nation/group tunnel vision, but that's only bad if you have other options or paths open to you. In the Wasteland(s), survival is the top priority. You can afford tunnel vision, you could even say you need it because if you get distracted by other things then you die. More importantly, why do you assume there's no carrot for those who join the Legion?

Hell, Caesar mentions that a fair number of tribes have joined the Legion willingly, and are treated better for it. More importantly, they'd only hate the Legion if A) they had something better in the first place and B) they were one of the tribes forced into joining the Legion...and that's less 'forced' and more 'majority of the people killed (brutally) as an example to the others while the remaining ones are enslaved'. As for giving the conquered tribes an independent identity...I'd say that's one of the reasons Rome fell and the Legion might not (depending on your actions obviously, an army of robots does wonders for curtailing expansion plans on anyone).

...And for the record, for all the bragging the NCR might do about the Legion, they're just as scared of the Legion. :smalltongue: Both at how well the Legion is doing and the desperate fear that the Legion might somehow get better tech...which would screw the NCR over five ways to Sunday. Remember the off-hand mentions that NCR troops were ordered to destroy their weapons (or throw them over the side of the dam) if they thought they were going to die or get captured? Those veterans were worried about what the Legions troops would do with proper arms, cause the Legion isn't worried about what they have to do to win.


Couple additional points:

1) The Legion doesn't do the whole "peaceful merger" thing. They'll talk it up, but once you've gotten to the point of no return, they'll forcibly assimilate. See, for example, the Great Khans - They want to go down the 'peaceful merger' route, but if you do some digging, you can find proof that the Legion's just going to annihilate their culture and make them another faceless cog in the machine once they agree (and actually use that info to make them break their alliance if you want). Then also see the White Legs from honest hearts . They badly want to join the Legion, but Caesar tells them "Sorry, no can do" and leaves them to get annihilated because they only managed to kill most of the people in New Canaan, not all of them.

2) Caesar himself says that he has to hide lots of technological things from his men, or they'll start losing their discipline and wonder why they're getting sent to their deaths wearing football helmets and carrying machetes (when you get the platinum chip from him). Not exactly a stable environment when the leader himself is saying "oh, no, I can't let my men go in that bunker, they may figure out that there's a way that doesn't involve them dying horribly!"

3) Chiasaur has talked about Graham. Then there's also Ulysses (again DLC, unfortunately, but you can find his speeches on youtube). He spent years as one of Caesar's frumentarii, and came to a similar conclusion that the Legion model is unsustainable. His plan was to shatter the existing civilizations, but he was only going to use his nukes on the NCR.


After this, only one flag will remain over the Mojave. Let that one fly, or destroy itself
As he and many others say, without consistently having an enemy to go up against, the Legion is unsustainable.

And if you tell him Caesar is dead


If the West thanks you...the East won't, in time. Fall apart, back to the tribes, maybe

Chief Hanlon feels the same way - if you tell him Caesar's dead, he gets a lot more hope that the situation is winnable. Many people in-game agree that the Legion is close to doomed (granted, not tomorrow, but still doomed) if Caesar goes down, line of succession or no. However, if Kimball gets assassinated, its a big morale hit to be sure, but no one goes around saying the NCR is doomed if he dies.

4) Finally, just other aspects of Legion life are unsustainable. If/when you talk to Silus in Camp McCarran, it turns out that Legionnaires are supposed to assassinate themselves rather than be captured. Mr. New Vegas tells you that Lanius is quite literally using Roman decimation on Legion units if they don't live up to expectations. I think its Caesar (if not, then one of his Praetorian Guard) says that with Lanius in command, then the legionnaires will be more afraid of the man behind them than the men in front of them. Ruling from fear, slaughtering your own troops, that is not a long-term sustainable solution for a civilization.

[Kris Strife]

came up with Rome, which is still remembered as one of the greatest empires the world has ever known (and it eventually become a democracy, keep in mind).

Wait what? When did the Roman Empire become a democracy?

[Serenity]

Also, the basic problem with ever choosing the Legion: if you want pragmatic tyranny, you get that from House with infinitely less baby-eating. Plus, House has the actual longevity to stay in power to ensure his ideals are never corrupted by, say, a second-in-command who just wants to murder everything.

[Aragehaor]

Wait what? When did the Roman Empire become a democracy?
I believe he or she may be referring to the Roman Kingdom's change into The Roman Republic - but that still wasn't a democracy - and moreover, that could hardly be considered 'eventually becoming a democracy' as it instead eventually became The Roman Empire.

[Calemyr]

The Legion is a bubble community in New Vegas - it can only survive by expanding. Militarize a culture too much and you end up with a culture that cannot tolerate a day without something to fight against. As I understand it, Caesar hopes that taking the Mojave, with it's space, infrastructure, electricity, and clean water, will give them a chance to settle down to a maintainable level.

I agree with the theory, but I don't think I'd ever side with them.

As an aside, I was toying with an LP of NV. It'd be a narrative one, with the primary perspective character being the mod NPC Willow rather than the Courier. If you're interested, here's the opening I'd written for it:

The sound echoed in the mid-day heat, a dry metallic click of a hammer hitting home only to find that nothing waiting for it. The sound repeated itself in a steady rhythm across the sandy hills of the Mojave and along asphalt pathways crumbling under centuries of neglect. It was the sound of a pistol, its clip emptied some time ago but still attempting to accommodate the finger that continued pulling numbly at its trigger. So the pistol clicked impotently at memories, at the rage of a victim, and at the horror of what could have been.

The sound slowed as the woman holding the gun recovered from her brief fugue. With a look of embarrassed confusion, she examined the pistol and, upon discovering its empty clip, returned it to its place in the pocket of her gecko-skin jacket. It had saved her life, she was sure of it, but without ammunition it was useless and now she was left unarmed and alone in an unfamiliar land plagued by gangs, raiders, and worse.

“I’m not saying that. I just… would you please wait until after the fight starts to start blaring music, at least?” The voice snapped the woman out of her thoughts. She looked around behind her to see the source of the voice. It was still a ways off, but she could see a figure on the road. It was walking this way, but didn’t seem to have noticed her yet. Quickly, she dove behind the gutted husk of an ancient car, peeking through the windows to watch what was coming.

“I know that, but it would have been much easier if I could have picked my fights. This piece of junk isn’t suited for five to one odds.” The voice was a masculine one, but more refined than the two she’d heard last. Intelligent. Educated. It was clearly annoyed, but also bore a tinge of amusement. She waited silently as the figure came up over the top of the nearest hill.

The figure was a young man, maybe in his late twenties. He wore a battered, sleeveless, leather duster over a white shirt and ash-black slacks. He also wore leather boots and fingerless gloves, all of which were as well made - and well worn – as the duster. Hovering beside him was some form of robot, a model the woman had never seen before. It was about the same size and shape as a basketball, adorned with antennae and thrusters and other bits of metal the woman couldn’t identify. The man was arguing with the robot, or rather the man was scolding the robot, which responded with a series of incomprehensible beeps.

The man did not slow down as he approached the woman’s hiding spot. She almost let out a sigh of relief as he passed by, until she saw that the man had pulled a rifle from its place on his backpack and was now pointing it, one handed, directly at her. Although he’d stopped walking, he hadn’t turned around. She stared at the rifle. She couldn’t help it; not only was the weapon pointed at her head, it was a laser rifle and an odd one at that.

“I’m really not in a good mood.” The man announced casually. “You’ve got five seconds to surrender or spring your trap. Otherwise I start shooting. Am I understood? One…”

“I surrender!” The woman answered, immediately stepping out from behind the car. “I was just hiding because I’ve already been robbed once today!”

The man took a long moment to scan his surroundings before turning to get his first proper look at the woman. “Well, either you’re telling the truth or this is a pathetic ambush.” He admitted, finally. “Keep your hands where I can see them and tell me what happened.”

[Kris Strife]

I believe he or she may be referring to the Roman Kingdom's change into The Roman Republic - but that still wasn't a democracy - and moreover, that could hardly be considered 'eventually becoming a democracy' as it instead eventually became The Roman Empire.

That's what I was thinking it might be, but I wanted clarification.

[Triaxx]

I see the problem now. Divine Favor is no good because Fallout Tactics has a Level Cap, that 1/2 didn't have. So there's only a couple of more perks to get.

[chiasaur11]

I see the problem now. Divine Favor is no good because Fallout Tactics has a Level Cap, that 1/2 didn't have. So there's only a couple of more perks to get.

Doesn't have a hard cap before 99, I think.

Problem is the soft cap. Eventually, even killing armies of robots won't get a level.

It's still a good perk. I mean, the get (stat) perks are decent. This is them for free.

[Opperhapsen]

Well that was a waste of money.

so Fallout tactics has a worse interface than fallout 1-2, doesn't make sense (A doctor bag does allow me to use my doctoring skills... why?), doesn't explain anything, features some gameplay tweaks that makes me want to hit things (Why the hell can't I use those last action points for moving? Why am I getting stuck behind invisible things?) and the GoG version doesn't do the mods, editors, and other things made by NMA. :smallmad:

[chiasaur11]

Well that was a waste of money.

so Fallout tactics has a worse interface than fallout 1-2, doesn't make sense (A doctor bag does allow me to use my doctoring skills... why?), doesn't explain anything, features some gameplay tweaks that makes me want to hit things (Why the hell can't I use those last action points for moving? Why am I getting stuck behind invisible things?) and the GoG version doesn't do the mods, editors, and other things made by NMA. :smallmad:

Not going to say the game is great, but it sounds like you're having a worse time than you absolutely have to.

1) First aid and doctor are actually useful in this one. Needed something to balance out.

2) Did you try the tutorial? Covers the basics. Helps a lot.

3) You can, and I don't know, respectively. Shouldn't be happening.

4) Hmm. Think there's a way to do that somewhere, but it was a kludge. Can't help beyond that.

[Cespenar]

doesn't make sense (A doctor bag does allow me to use my doctoring skills... why?)

Because a doctor's bag contains the, you know, tools and medicine to actually do the doctoring with.

[Opperhapsen]

I mean "Doesn't".

I can't use doctoring.
I press the "Skill" button, select "Doctor" and NOTHING happens because I "Don't have the tools" (Even though they are in my inventory)

I am consistently getting stuck behind everything, I can't figure out how to do some things that were really intuitive in fallout 1-2, and I'm just not enjoying myself.

[Mikeavelli]

You put the doctor bag (or first aid kit) in your hand, click on that, and then click on the person you need to heal.

[Opperhapsen]

Rendering the "Doctor" button completely pointless! :smallannoyed:

[Tengu_temp]

I don't think that Fallout Tactics is any less intuitive than Fallout 1-2. They had some pretty damn unintuitive interface elements already, it's just that everyone and their dog played the crap out of these games so we are used to their interface.

Do the tutorials. They explain everything.

[chiasaur11]

Rendering the "Doctor" button completely pointless! :smallannoyed:

Not... quite.

But that's a bit of an exploit, comes later in the game.

For now, it's just an alternate method.

Later?

Deathclaw. Medic.

[Mikeavelli]

Rendering the "Doctor" button completely pointless! :smallannoyed:

It's a legacy from the fallout 1/2 interface, just like the majority of the skills menu. There are very few circumstances where you'll have to open that menu, (I think there's one terminal in the whole game you can hack with science... Maybe two?) - the whole thing could have been replaced by just checking science to hack the terminal when you click on it normally.

Interesting bug in the new way of doing things, since having an item in your hand boosts your skill level with it, having two identical items doubles the boost. I only really did this with lockpicks, but I think it also works with the doctors bag and first aid kit.

[Opperhapsen]

This game lies to me.
It says I can hand over things, but this is not the case.

Anyway, I'm going to put this aside and I may return to it later to give it a fair shot.
Right now I am too mad at it to be objective.

[chiasaur11]

It's a legacy from the fallout 1/2 interface, just like the majority of the skills menu. There are very few circumstances where you'll have to open that menu, (I think there's one terminal in the whole game you can hack with science... Maybe two?) - the whole thing could have been replaced by just checking science to hack the terminal when you click on it normally.

Interesting bug in the new way of doing things, since having an item in your hand boosts your skill level with it, having two identical items doubles the boost. I only really did this with lockpicks, but I think it also works with the doctors bag and first aid kit.

AND the repair kits, yeah.

Think there's about a dozen things that can be hacked, but most of them can be better handled with violence. Why a patch changed science to also give a boost to damage against synthetics, I think.

And again, the skilldex lets characters who'd otherwise be blocked use medical supplies and repair kits.

Odd use, but there you are.

As for handing off items?

Have two characters stand reasonably close, then drag the item from one character's inventory to the second one's name at the bottom of the screen. Works fine.

[Triaxx]

I've tested it and there is a level cap of 24. There's just not any more after that. If a half a million XP won't cut it for a level up, nothing will. (I had a great time driving around with the APC and gunning down any poor civilians and bugs and such that I happened to run into/over with either small arms, or hunting rifles. Ten days of play later, and still no more level ups.)

Yes, the interface is a bit more complex than 1/2. It's meant to be more a game about tactical combat, so having a hand taken out of combat because it's using the doctor bag instead is one of the changes made to improve the 'realism' and provide challenge. You'll also note that doctors bags now run out.

The Skill dex is still sort of useful, for things like sneaking, and lock picking, if you don't use the hotkeys. Mostly so you can look and remember: Pick locks with this guy, not that guy.

If you're looking for some good Fallout Tactics Videos, I recommend Let's Play Voltron Army Fallout Tactics by Acciyn. Provides a lot of how to, and even more how not to on the game.

I don't know about getting stuck on invisible things, I do know a lot about getting stuck on visible things.

The one big problem is that FT is based on a hexagonal grid, but for some reason, it's not visible on the map, when it really should be. Still awesome and worth the trouble to learn to play it.

[chiasaur11]

I've tested it and there is a level cap of 24. There's just not any more after that. If a half a million XP won't cut it for a level up, nothing will. (I had a great time driving around with the APC and gunning down any poor civilians and bugs and such that I happened to run into/over with either small arms, or hunting rifles. Ten days of play later, and still no more level ups.)

Yes, the interface is a bit more complex than 1/2. It's meant to be more a game about tactical combat, so having a hand taken out of combat because it's using the doctor bag instead is one of the changes made to improve the 'realism' and provide challenge. You'll also note that doctors bags now run out.

The Skill dex is still sort of useful, for things like sneaking, and lock picking, if you don't use the hotkeys. Mostly so you can look and remember: Pick locks with this guy, not that guy.

If you're looking for some good Fallout Tactics Videos, I recommend Let's Play Voltron Army Fallout Tactics by Acciyn. Provides a lot of how to, and even more how not to on the game.

I don't know about getting stuck on invisible things, I do know a lot about getting stuck on visible things.

The one big problem is that FT is based on a hexagonal grid, but for some reason, it's not visible on the map, when it really should be. Still awesome and worth the trouble to learn to play it.

That's why I called it a soft level cap.

By the end, it takes millions of XP. Tough guy mode doubles gains, so getting to 26 with that? Possible.

Even then, the thing to grind is behemoths. Bugs aren't worth near as much XP.

The hard cap's much higher.

[Triaxx]

I bow to your absurd dedication to the game. I thought I'd gone over the top. Geez.