Attacking Yourself?

[VGLordR2]

Hi, everyone. I was wondering if there are rules anywhere for attacking yourself. If there is no source like that, I need to know the following things:
#1: Is an attack roll required to attack yourself, or can you hit automatically?
#2: What weapons can you attack yourself with, if any?
#3: Assuming you can hit yourself automatically, would you be able to crit yourself automatically?
Thanks in advance for any help you can give. :smallsmile:

[Studoku]

There are no specific rules for attacking yourself.

Can I ask why a player is attacking themself?

[Seffbasilisk]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm

[limejuicepowder]

I would rule automatic coup de grace - after all, how good of a killer can someone be if they can't even kill themselves?

Really though, even that wouldn't be sufficient - a mid level fighter-type would easily be able to take the damage and make the fort save, probably several times. Kind of funny to think about.

[hydraa]

What could be fun if you are using some critical fumble rules.

Attack yourself
Roll a 1 and fumble
Do more damage to yourself then you would of done if the attack had hit because you mangled the attack on yourself

[VGLordR2]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm

Thank you, Seffbasilisk. This seems to be the only reference to attacking oneself. This was exactly what I was looking for.

[Alex Star]

Sentient Creatures natural try to avoid harm, and even though they may "try" to hurt themselves will usually use less than the force they would use to hurt another.

If the subject is Insane or has some sort of effect that would remove the normal judgement of an "AWARE" person, then they can most likely hit themselves without a roll.

If the subject is just trying to hit themselves I'd say some kind of a saving throw probably versus Will should be required. The person is trying to overcome their own base instincts.

[Telonius]

A magical variation, but (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):


Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw

A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

Cast any spell that would result in your own death (either through spell effect or regular HP damage), and willingly fail the save.

[Person_Man]

There are no specific rules for attacking yourself.

Can I ask why a player is attacking themself?

Not sure if this is what the OP intends, but you can make an enemy take 50% of your hit point damage with the Shield Self vestige ability or Share Pain psionic power. Either allows a Saving Throw. But once your enemy fails, if your hit points are higher then their hit points, you can kill them by attacking yourself, assuming that you don't also accidentally kill yourself.

[Curmudgeon]

#1: A successful roll (your attack at least equal to your AC) is required to hit yourself; you follow the normal rules excepting special cases like the psionic power referenced above.

#2: The normal rules apply, so any weapon works.

#3: N/A.

[hydraa]

#2: The normal rules apply, so any weapon works.


Would reach weapons be disallowed since you are within 5 feet of yourself

[Curmudgeon]

A reach weapon works if you can reach yourself with it. That's a consequence of using the normal rules. I can't think of any creature that has more than 10' space with 5' reach, though.

[NeoSeraphi]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm

:eek: People can force you to coup'de'grace yourself? And it's only a 4th level power? That's...a really good power.

[Hiro Protagonest]

:eek: People can force you to coup'de'grace yourself? And it's only a 4th level power? That's...a really good power.

You haven't seen the Test of Spite challenge where a guy with Lightning Maces failed his save against Death Urge. His pistol had 538 bullets, I believe.

[Lateral]

:eek: People can force you to coup'de'grace yourself? And it's only a 4th level power? That's...a really good power.

Eh. It has a Will save to negate, and it's only one round, which means they're only getting one attack in. It's only a single attack against themselves, and it'll usually be only at double damage since most weapons have a x2 crit modifier, so it usually won't be sufficient to kill the character.

Besides, it isn't a Coup de Grace, just an automatic critical. No Fort save to not die.

[NeoSeraphi]

Eh. It has a Will save to negate, and it's only one round, which means they're only getting one attack in. It's only a single attack against themselves, and it'll usually be only at double damage since most weapons have a x2 crit modifier, so it usually won't be sufficient to kill the character.

Besides, it isn't a Coup de Grace, just an automatic critical. No Fort save to not die.

But you can extend it easily by spending more power points at a higher level. I mean, if you use it as a 20th level manifester, it lasts for 4 rounds. Plus, it's eating a full-round action, so it's like dazing except much, much worse.

You could cast it on a purple worm or a similar creature to have it poison itself, or force a man to break his Vow of Peace in the worst way possible.

Plus, that line about throwing yourself off a nearby cliff? Even dominate monster doesn't let you do that, and dominate monster is a 9th level spell.

[Darth Stabber]

I really think that you should be able to atleast drop yourself to -1 and dying with self coup de grace. I could do it in under 6 seconds if I had a knife and no will to live. However beheading yourself would be quite difficult without extensive artifice, just because your arms don't bend that way (slitting your throat with a knife is fine, but you cant really get enough of a swing going to have enough momentum to get it through your spine. That goes out the window if you are dumb enough to use swordchucks. Actually I recommend swordchucks.

[Douglas]

You haven't seen the Test of Spite challenge where a guy with Lightning Maces failed his save against Death Urge. His pistol had 538 bullets, I believe.
As I recall both participants had a good laugh about just how fine a red mist the victim was unexpectedly reduced to.:smallamused:

[Ernir]

But you can extend it easily by spending more power points at a higher level. I mean, if you use it as a 20th level manifester, it lasts for 4 rounds. Plus, it's eating a full-round action, so it's like dazing except much, much worse.
Augmenting it is the psionic way of making it a higher level power. If you're augmenting the power to cost 20PP, you're not comparing its effectiveness to that of just 4th level powers, you're comparing its effectiveness to other powers that cost 20PP. Like slightly augmented 9th level powers.

You could cast it on a purple worm or a similar creature to have it poison itself, or force a man to break his Vow of Peace in the worst way possible.
Yes. It is a pretty good power.

Plus, that line about throwing yourself off a nearby cliff? Even dominate monster doesn't let you do that, and dominate monster is a 9th level spell.
That's because Death Urge is a power made specifically to force people to try to kill themselves (a.k.a it's a power for the specific purpose of making people throw themselves off cliffs). Dominate Monster is a more generic spell, and I can't believe you'd argue that that one has less use.

[Morithias]

One time I was playing a ghost character whose technique revolved around "possess enemy and commit suicide".

We ruled I could coup de grace myself as a full round action, since I was basically helpless against myself. Or...well..the BODY was helpless against myself.

[APersonAmI]

:eek: People can force you to coup'de'grace yourself? And it's only a 4th level power? That's...a really good power.

As a mind control enthusiast, I must say that there is no such thing as only a 4th level power. I mean, off the top of my head: Mind Control, Fold space, Correspond, Augered Answer, Intellect Fortress, Psychic Reformation and Shism are all awesome powers available at 4th level. It's just an awesome level of powers.

On the other hand, Death Urge is fun. I love the fact that it exists. Especially in Pathfinder, where the augmentation is 1 additional round of duration for every 2 power points, and these metapsionic feats are available:
Persistent Power(Metapsionic)
Persistent Power [Metapsionic]
You can modify a power to become more tenacious when its targets resist its effect.
Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent power or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the power, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the power, as if it had failed its first saving throw.
Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 2. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.
Powers that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the power’s effect cannot be used with this feat.
Redirect Power(Metapsionic)
Redirect Power [Metapsionic]
You can direct a failed power against a different target.
Benefit: To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. Whenever a redirecting power targeting a single creature has no effect on its intended target (whether due to power resistance or a successful saving throw) you may, as a swift action, redirect it to target another eligible creature within range. The redirected power behaves in all ways as if its new target were the original target for the power. Powers that affect a target in any way (including a lesser effect from a successful saving throw) may not be redirected in this manner. Using this feat does not increase the power point cost of the power.

Did you know? Subverting the minds of your victims is FUN!!!!!!:smallbiggrin:


*Edit*
On topic, the way I'd rule it is that any character may attack themselves in any manner they are capable: as their bodies are effectively at their own mercy, considering them "Helpless" is not really a stretch. For instance, I see no problem with a character with their teeth free chopping their own tongue of as a full-round Coup De Grace for unarmed critical damage, choosing to fail their own save and dying. Actually, I'd welcome it, as it is realistic, dramatic and inventive.

[Thurbane]

I imagine attacking oneself would be easier with a light or one-handed weapon. A two-handed weapon would be a little unwieldy for the job (especially of the bludgeoning variety)...and a bow? Downright tricky! :smallbiggrin:

[Fitz10019]

You could cast it on a purple worm or a similar creature to have it poison itself...

I always consider a creature immune to it's own poison (or any poison of its species). I don't know of that's official or not.

..and a bow? Downright tricky! :smallbiggrin:

So, if you fire the bow (or crossbow) straight up in the air, and follow Curmudgeon's advice that normal attack roll v. AC applies, what's the range increment penalty on that shot??

[Ashtagon]

:eek: People can force you to coup'de'grace yourself? And it's only a 4th level power? That's...a really good power.

You only crit yourself, not coup de grace. Still, it's rather out there even for that.

[Ashtagon]

I imagine attacking oneself would be easier with a light or one-handed weapon. A two-handed weapon would be a little unwieldy for the job (especially of the bludgeoning variety)...and a bow? Downright tricky! :smallbiggrin:

It's astonishingly easy to kill yourself with a bow. Just hold it back to front and have the arrow facing yourself.

[Person_Man]

RE: Death Urge

It is a fun and awesome power, and players should have nice things.

Keep in mind that many standard enemies are immune to mind affecting and/or compulsion effects, including all undead, constructs, plants, etc. And most Wis based builds (Clerics, Druids, Monks, Psychic Warriors, etc) will be likely to pass their Save. And Power Resistance (and potentially Spell Resistance, depending on your transparency rules) apply. And it takes 1 round to manifest, and is thus fairly easy to disrupt if you can attack the manifester before he finishes.

So if a player spams Death Urge every combat, a DM can easily mix up his encounters in such a way that it's not an auto-win button, without changing his story.

[NeoSeraphi]

RE: Death Urge

It is a fun and awesome power, and players should have nice things.

Keep in mind that many standard enemies are immune to mind affecting and/or compulsion effects, including all undead, constructs, plants, etc. And most Wis based builds (Clerics, Druids, Monks, Psychic Warriors, etc) will be likely to pass their Save. And Power Resistance (and potentially Spell Resistance, depending on your transparency rules) apply. And it takes 1 round to manifest, and is thus fairly easy to disrupt if you can attack the manifester before he finishes.

So if a player spams Death Urge every combat, a DM can easily mix up his encounters in such a way that it's not an auto-win button, without changing his story.

Ah, a one-round manifesting time. Missed that somehow. That helps, yeah.


That's because Death Urge is a power made specifically to force people to try to kill themselves (a.k.a it's a power for the specific purpose of making people throw themselves off cliffs). Dominate Monster is a more generic spell, and I can't believe you'd argue that that one has less use.

Well, no, I wouldn't, but it seems odd to me that the epitome of enchantment spells, the final and end-all best spell, has one glaring weakness that this fourth level power doesn't. It just seems to me like if there's a way to magically/psychically compel others to do it, dominate monster should be able to achieve it as well.

[willpell]

I've never tried to kill myself, but I've certainly attempted to inflict minor harm on myself, and it's not as easy as it looks. Human skin is fairly tough, and your musculature isn't really designed to swing a sword inward; it's far from impossible but I would certainly not regard it as automatic.

I'd say the farthest you should go toward making it easy would be to assume you voluntarily forfeit your Dexterity bonus to AC; you might not have time to get your armor off before the power wears off, and even without armor you still have to hit a 10 and will miss automatically on a 1 (butterfingers!). You have to be fairly deadly to hit even on a 2 or 3, and that makes sense because someone who isn't a career causer-of-death (usually to others) won't have the expertise necessary to guarantee that they stab themselves in a place that will do more than hurt like heck and take a while to heal.

I would definitely say it isn't any easier than normal to get a crit; the body only has so many vital organs, and any doctor who's removed a bullet will tell you that the difference between life and death is often a fraction of an inch, which can be hard to measure by eye from outside the body.

[Absol197]

There are no specific rules for attacking yourself.

Can I ask why a player is attacking themself?

I've seen players have a very goos reason for doing so, and they weren't even mind-controlled!

In a campaign my friend ran, one of his boss fights was against what he called the "positive energy squid." It was a squid that was made of positive energy. It got eight attacks per round, but they didn't do any damage, only healed the target 1d8+Cha damage, and gave any excess to the target as temporary hp.

However, as one versed in the Positive Energy Plane would know, having too many temporary hp causes one look like the Stay Puff't Marshmallow Man after having four proton pack beams fired into you. So, to avoid their own fiery explosions due to too much positive energy, the characters resorted to attack themselves (and each other!) as well as the squid.

Fun times!

[Slipperychicken]

I really think that you should be able to atleast drop yourself to -1 and dying with self coup de grace. I could do it in under 6 seconds if I had a knife and no will to live. However beheading yourself would be quite difficult without extensive artifice, just because your arms don't bend that way (slitting your throat with a knife is fine, but you cant really get enough of a swing going to have enough momentum to get it through your spine. That goes out the window if you are dumb enough to use swordchucks. Actually I recommend swordchucks.

This. If we could just hack our own heads off with a sword or cut our own throats with a dagger, we wouldn't need to hang ourselves, jump off bridges, or eat poison.


Those other means exist precisely because stabbing yourself to death is generally a difficult, unreliable, drawn-out, and unpleasant means of suicide.

[hushblade]

Well swinging a sword do deal damage to one's self would be quite hard, but running one's self through would be pretty easy with a wall.

[Thurbane]

It's actually quite possible to kill yourself with a sword - that's the literal meaning behind the expression "To fall on your sword". Then there's the ritualised Seppuku of the Bushido code.

I won't link to any grizzly real world articles, but while uncommon, slitting one's own throat with a knife of straightrazor as a form of suicide does occur. An acquaintance of mines father actually did exactly that many years ago.