"What's a burrahobbit... (And can yer cook'em)?"

[Suteinu]

Hello to Mr. & Mrs. de Meanor and all the ships at sea!

I've just begun to reread The Hobbit again (the trailor got me excited). This book is probably my favorite piece of fantasy literature, my love for Robert Howard's work not withstanding.

Now I'll admit up front that this is another character build project, but w/ more of a process to it. See, I'm reading it to some school students w/ whom I work, so I have timeto consider things. I plan to build the book's characters as I go along with the story. My main focus is Bilbo, and I'll probably ask you mob for input quite a bit (and even for y'all to stat-out characters when I'm pressed for time or just too derned lazy!). We' just go to "Roast Mutton" today, so there's a little catching-up to do...

So,

Gandalf: No build! For all his power, he's little more than a plot device in this book.

Bilbo: Aristocrat 1
S-6, D-16, C-12, I-14, W-14, C-13 (taking into consideration halfling and middle-age modifiers)
Sk: points not yet distributed, but considering Craft (Composition, Cooking, Writing), Perform (Smoke-ring Blowing :smallwink:), Decipher Script, Knowledge (Geography, History, Local, Nature), Profession (Country Squire), Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Listen, Search, and Spot.
Feats: Help!
Race: Talfellow (based on Fallowhide) or Strongheart

I'm in a bit of a hurry, now (not for the last time!), so I'l continue this in the next couple of days.

[MukkTB]

That's a rabbit and a hobo. But they're making a hobbit.

[hymer]

Bilbo is probably stronger than that. It seems quite a while he holds himself up by a dwarf's legs while the eagles fly them to safety.

He's also a capable stealther. He manages to sneak up on the trolls, after all, and his pickpocketing would've succeeded if not for magic.
He is more stealthy than the dwarves and comments on it, and yet we're informed that they would likely all have managed to pass by the average human within a few feet without being noticed.

Bilbo may also well not be middle aged. A Hobbit is likely in the prime of his life at fifty. Coming of age at 33 is likely to be something like 18-21 for a human, so at fifty they're more like 26-32 for a human.

Consider Halfling Paragon from UA. Bilbo is very Hobbitish, save for his more Tookish tendencies, which actually corresponds decently with the description of the Halfling Paragon. But I agree on Aristocrat being a fitting starting point.

As for feats, I keep coming up with Destiny feats, but they are for humans. I guess I can't really think of anything right now.

[Suteinu]

I estimated that Bilbo, having lead a life of gentlemanly leasure, had an equivelant Str of 9, modified as I pointed out, but you do bring up a good point. Gandalf also stated that there was more to this hobbit than even the fellow himself suspected. I think I'll bring it up to a 9 or 10 total, suplimented by his fine Constitution (for a hobbit his age).

I do think that fifty is just becomming middle-aged for hobbits by Tolkien's reconing, but I have to find that source (somewhere in my library... no, not there... not there... ).

Skills: I need to go over the Aristocrat skill list (I don't have my books about me right now), so I've divvied-up these 24 points as points and not ranks yet: Appraisal 2, Craft (Cooking) 2, Decipher Script 2, Kn (Geography 1, History 1, Local 1, Nature 1), Listen 2, Perform (Smokering Blowing 2)(yes, I was serious; you try it sometime), Profession (Country Squire) 2, Search 2, Sense Motive 4, Spot 2. I think this reflects Bilbo's thorough but unmotivated mindset (Tookish interests and Baggins business). I am relying on his natural stealth, as he did, to begin with, and am trying to abide by Zonugal's magnificent Commoner Handbook while remaining true to a character who was not designed with terms like "gish," "min-maxing," or even "PC" in mind!

Feats: one or two (or more) depend on whether I construct Bilbo as a Talfellow or a Strongheart, and whether or not he gets any flaws. One feat that I think appropriate is Halfling Lore (+4 Craft: Cooking, +2 each in Kn: History and Local), a Greyhawk background feat.

I need to find a copy of UA and check out the Halfling Paragon.

I'll finalize Bilbo after a few more threadings from Playgrounders, then nail down those thirteen dwarves (really, J.R.R.? 13!?). Oh, and I figure the trolls will be coverd as ogres w/ the whole stone-in-the-sun thing (similar to vampires' sun sensitivity, differnt reaction).

[nedz]

I always thought he was more middle class ?
He had one servant - a gardener.
I never was sure what it was that he did for a living ?

[TuggyNE]

I always thought he was more middle class ?
He had one servant - a gardener.
I never was sure what it was that he did for a living ?

He was independently wealthy and vaguely aristocratic, in a hobbitish way.

[Suteinu]

Bilbo Baggins, "An Unexpected Party Member"

Strongheart halfl- er, hobbit, Small
Ari- 1 (1d8: 9 hp)
S- 10, D- 16, C- 12, I- 14, W- 14, C- 13
F- +1, R- +3, W- +6 (+8 vs. Fear)
Proudfeats:smallwink:: Halfling Lore (Bckgrnd), Iron Will
Skills: Appraisal +4, Climb +2, Cr (Cook) +6, Decipher Script +4, Hide +7, Jump +2, Listen +6, Kn (Geography) +3, (History) +5, (Local) +7, (Nature) +3, Move Silently +5, Pref (Blowing Smoke Rings) +3, Prof (Country squire) +3, Sense Motive +6, Spot +4
Equ: clothe on his back, no hat, no walking stick not even a pocket handerchief (untill Gandalf brought some), pipe (also brought by Gandalf the plot-point), weathered pale-green hood and cloak (slightly too big)

Dwarves to come this afternoon!

[Bogardan_Mage]

Regarding his social status, yes the Bagginses were the most respectable family and one of the wealthiest, and the Tooks were even wealthier and also held most of The Shire's (hereditary) political titles (although Belladona does not appear to have been in line for any of these). Even so, I'm not sure Hobbit society has "aristocrats" in the sense that traditional D&D would see them. Bilbo didn't have a title or serfs, and the only land he seems to own is Bag End. What's more, the skill he most consistently demonstrates is Move Silently, so I'd make him a Rogue purely on the grounds that that's his role in the party. Classes are supposed to be abstractions anyway.

[Amphetryon]

Luckily, Halfling Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halflingParagon) is in the SRD. Bilbo is probably an Aristocrat to start, gaining a level of Rogue by the end of his very long trip.

[Kol Korran]

(i loved the book, and read it many times, but long ago, some details i may miss)

About the 13 dwarves, i think you can make most of them the same, with only exceptional ones more flashed out.

general thoughts
1) As to classes, i think they should be a mix of aristocrats and some fighting class, most likely the fighter i think (they are currently too poor for armors). as they prove to be a worthy force in the battle of the five armies (was that how it was called? the battle at the end?) that means they should be of a fairly high level. but not too high, as they still fear worgs and orcs. around level 8?

2) I'd give Balin high perception ranks, as he's supposed to be the group's sentry.(or was it another dwarf? Kili?)

3) the dwarves should have ranks in perform (Ballad/ singing), profession (miner), appraise, and climbing at least.

4) Thorin obviously should have leadership, and high charisma (for a dwaf)

5) Bombur should have some sort of flaw. perhaps Pathetic to reduce his speed, or maybe some homebrew feat?

[Amphetryon]

(i loved the book, and read it many times, but long ago, some details i may miss)

About the 13 dwarves, i think you can make most of them the same, with only exceptional ones more flashed out.

general thoughts
1) As to classes, i think they should be a mix of aristocrats and some fighting class, most likely the fighter i think (they are currently too poor for armors). as they prove to be a worthy force in the battle of the five armies (was that how it was called? the battle at the end?) that means they should be of a fairly high level. but not too high, as they still fear worgs and orcs. around level 8?

2) I'd give Balin high perception ranks, as he's supposed to be the group's sentry.(or was it another dwarf? Kili?)

3) the dwarves should have ranks in perform (Ballad/ singing), profession (miner), appraise, and climbing at least.

4) Thorin obviously should have leadership, and high charisma (for a dwaf)

5) Bombur should have some sort of flaw. perhaps Pathetic to reduce his speed, or maybe some homebrew feat?

I'd peg Thorin at 6 (minimum for Leadership), with the others around 4 or 5, due to the aforementioned concerns about Worgs and Orcs - not even Urukai.

An argument could be made that they're Warriors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/warrior.htm), not Fighters, but that could also be attributed to Tolkein's tendency toward understatement.

[hamishspence]

Uruk-hai are called "goblin-soldiers" in LoTR on at least one occasion. It's quite possible that Bolg and his bodyguard of large goblins with helmets were Uruk-hai, sent out by Sauron to rally the goblins. Since they first appear some 500 years before the Battle of Five Armies.

[Kol Korran]

aren't Uruk Hai bred by Saruman? :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

Yes and No.

Saruman would have bred his own- possibly with boosted "light-resistance" compared to standard Uruk-hai- but they predate his "turn to the dark side" considerably.

[nedz]

aren't Uruk Hai bred by Saruman? :smallconfused:

Whoa, we just had a thread about Half Orcs :smallfrown:

They don't appear in the hobbit anyway.

[Larkas]

Hmmm, maybe an Expert for extra skill points and class skills? I'd think that Expert1/Aristocrat1 would do the trick.

[Suteinu]

Thorin Oakenshield and Company
These are not in-depth. In general, each dwarf should have one or two Craft skills, at least one Profession (mining or merchant), and one Performance skill, each maxed-out if possible. Specific skills are noted below.

Thorin Oakenshield
Ari-1/Master (War of the Lance)(Perf)-5/Ftr (Sp:Commander, Drgn #310)-1
S- 14, D- 10, C- 14, I- 13, W- 9, C- 14
Sk: Performance (Stringed Inst, Singing), Craft (Clockwork)
Ft: Leadership, Magical Training (Prestidigitation, 3/day), SkF (Cr: Clockwork, Kn: History, Perf: Sing)

Balin
Ari-2/Mstr (Sage)-5
S- 12, D- 9, C- 10, I- 13, W- 14, C- 14
Sk: Perf (Stringed), Search, Spot
Ft: Alertness, Haggler, SkF (Kn: Local, Perf: Stringed Inst, Spot)

Dwalin
Ari-3, Mstr (Perf)-3
S- 12, D- 8, C- 12, I- 14, W- 13, C- 14
Sk: Perf (Stringed)
Ft: Combat Expt, Imp. Disarm, SkF (Listen, Perf: Stringed Inst)

Kili
Ari-1, Expt-2
S- 13, D- 10, C- 14, I- 15, W- 8, C- 12
Sk: Perf (Stringed)
Ft: Alertness, Imp. Initiative, SkF (Perf: Stringed Inst)
Fl: Reckless

Fili
Ari-2, Expt-1
S- 13, D- 10, C- 14, I- 14, W- 8, C- 13
Sk: Perf (Stringed)
Ft: Aalertness, Imp. Initiative, SkF (Perf: Stringed Inst)
Fl: Reckless

Dori
Ftr (Dwarven Fighter Sub-Levels)-2, Mstr-(Perf)-2
S- 16, D- 13, C- 16, I- 10, W- 12, C- 6
Sk: Climb, Jump, Perf (Wind inst.)
Ft: Imp. Bull Rush, Power attack, SkF (Perf: Wind Inst), WpF (all axes)

Nori
Mstr (Prof)-4
S- 12, D- 10, C- 15, I- 8, W- 14, C- 13
Sk: Perf (Wind inst.)
Ft: Power Attack, SkF (Kn: Dungeoneering, Prof: Mining)

Ori
Mstr (Crft)-4
S- 12, D- 13, C- 16, I- 15, W- 8, C- 8
Sk: Perf (Wind inst.)
Ft: Combat Rflx, SkF (Cr: Carpentry, Perf: Wind Inst)

Oin
Mstr (Crft)-4
S- 12, D- 14, C- 11, I- 12, W- 15, C- 11
Sk: Perf (Sing), Survival
Ft: Self Sufficient, SkF (Perf: Sing, Survival)

Gloin
Mstr (Crft)-4
S- 12, D- 13, C- 11, I- 12, W- 16, C- 11
Sk: Perf (Sing), Survival
Ft: Self Sufficient, SkF (Perf: Sing, Survival)

Bifur
Mstr (Sage)-3
S- 10, D- 13, C- 10, I- 14, W-12, C- 13
Sk: Perf (Wind inst.)
Ft: SkF (Kn: Arcane, Kn: Nature, Perf: Wind Inst)

Bofur
Mstr (Crft)-3
S- 10, D- 12, C- 10, I- 14, W- 13, C- 13
Sk: Perf (Wind inst.)
Ft: SkF (Cr: Blacksmith, Cr: Carpentry, Perf: Wind Inst)

Bombur
Mstr (Perf)-3
S- 14, D- 8, C- 15, I- 12, W- 10, C- 13
Sk: Perf (Precussion)
Ft: Power Attack, SkF (Cr: Brewer, Perf: Precussion), Stocky
Fl: Obese


Trolls: Ogres w/ sun-problem.

We just finished "Roast Mutton" today (slow-going with all the testing going on); I'll also be using the weekend to figure out Orcrist, Glamdring, and the as yet un-named Sting! And send in some more ideas about Tolkienesque goblins (I'm thinking medium-sized, the way that they apparently man-andled the dwarves; half-orc stats, maybe?).

[mattie_p]

It's been suggested before that Middle Earth is an E6 campaign with some extraordinary DMPCs (Gandalf) and BBEGs (Saruman, Sauron).

See here: Aragorn's character sheet. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183323)

Also here: Let's stat out popular characters in E6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144692)

Also:


2) I'd give Balin high perception ranks, as he's supposed to be the group's sentry.(or was it another dwarf? Kili?)

We're reading The Hobbit in family reading evenings, and my son confirms that Balin is the sentry, from memory (how awesome is he? Both my son and daughter combined can name all 13 dwarves from memory.)

Also, based on how many foes Bilbo defeats (think Gollum, all the spiders, the trolls? [1/2 exp], goblins [same same], plus the battle of 5 armies, he's gained a few levels and gotten to Epic 6 by then, I would think.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Bilbo is probably an Aristocrat to start
I'm sorry, but why? Because he was born into wealth? Do hobbits have to have any Aristocrats? It just feels like a stretch to me, Denethor I can see as an Aristocrat, Bilbo not so much. And even if he would qualify technically as an "aristocrat" does that have to be his class?

[hymer]

The 3.5 DMG description of the aristocrat class is actually pretty spot on for Bilbo. I'm not going to write it all out here, go look it up if you want to. Page 108.

Seems like you think there's something inherently wrong with being an aristocrat?

[ericgrau]

The lack of hide and move silently, mostly. Honestly with that skill list how is he supposed to burgle at all?

The 1e halfling thief practically came from Bilbo. The rest is backstory, personality and so on whereas his class relates to actual adventuring capabilities. IIRC the differences between the 1e thief and the 3e rogue is 3e added more/easier sneak attack and a d6 HD instead of d4.

[hamishspence]

They don't appear in the hobbit anyway.

Unless you subscribe to the view that Bolg's bodyguard were these, before Tolkien actually invented the term.

Morgoth's Ring also raises the possibility of elite, Maiar-blooded orcs called "Boldogs" - there's a theory that the Great Goblin may have been one of these.

[hymer]

@ ericgrau: He'll become a burglar on the way to the Lonely Mountain. Lacking classed access to Hide and MS is sad, but mashing BB into any class will bear difficulties. The class that represents him best fluffwise is more likely to be aristocrat than rogue.

[Vizzerdrix]

Race: Talfellow (based on Fallowhide) or Strongheart

I don't get it. Hobbits are gnomes, not halflings. Shouldn't he be a gnome?

[hamishspence]

They're called halflings by the Gondorians, and until 3rd ed, D&D halflings were heavily modelled on hobbits, right down to the hairy feet.

3rd ed avoided the hairy feet in most art, and gave them a physique more like a scaled down human.

[mattie_p]

They're called halflings by the Gondorians, and until 3rd ed, D&D halflings were heavily modelled on hobbits, right down to the hairy feet.

3rd ed avoided the hairy feet in most art, and gave them a physique more like a scaled down human.

Agreed. I was looking through my books and realized 3rd edition nerfed the hairy feet thing. 2nd edition was way more colorful with the physique of the hobbits halflings, and emphasized the hairy feet. Halfling was invented because hobbit was (is?!?) still copyrighted.

[ericgrau]

@ ericgrau: He'll become a burglar on the way to the Lonely Mountain. Lacking classed access to Hide and MS is sad, but mashing BB into any class will bear difficulties. The class that represents him best fluffwise is more likely to be aristocrat than rogue.
My memory may be off but I thought the only reason they picked him up at day 1 was because they wanted a burglar. My own point was to use class for adventuring abilities and restrict fluff to backstory only.

[hamishspence]

Unfinished Tales goes into a lot of detail about the whole process- Gandalf figuring out that the one thing Smaug will have never smelt before is hobbits, and how he had to go to considerable lengths to persuade Thorin- especially after Bilbo had gone to sleep and it was clear to Thorin that he was no professional burglar.

At least part of it is Gandalf's foresight- he knows (though he doesn't know why) that taking Bilbo along will be vitally important in some way.

Gandalf's account is also included in the appendices of expanded versions of The Hobbit.

[Taelas]

I don't get it. Hobbits are gnomes, not halflings. Shouldn't he be a gnome?

...

What?

How on earth did you arrive at this conclusion? Halflings were called hobbits originally, until Tolkien's estate complained. They are most certainly not gnomes, or even anything close to them.

[Bogardan_Mage]

The 3.5 DMG description of the aristocrat class is actually pretty spot on for Bilbo. I'm not going to write it all out here, go look it up if you want to. Page 108.

Seems like you think there's something inherently wrong with being an aristocrat?
Inherently wrong? Not at all. I just don't see Bilbo as that. As for the DMG description, it kind of goes against the homely image of a respectable hobbit when it talks about travelling widely and going on adventures. You're right in that it doesn't talk about land, titles, and servants though. But I just don't see why being an aristocrat necessarily means that should be his class. I think his class should be based on the abilities he shows, not what flavour conceptually matches his background.

[nedz]

Inherently wrong? Not at all. I just don't see Bilbo as that. As for the DMG description, it kind of goes against the homely image of a respectable hobbit when it talks about travelling widely and going on adventures. You're right in that it doesn't talk about land, titles, and servants though. But I just don't see why being an aristocrat necessarily means that should be his class. I think his class should be based on the abilities he shows, not what flavour conceptually matches his background.
this,
Aristocrats are proficient with all martial weapons, Bilbo isn't. Bilbo has levels in the Gentleman class.

[Suteinu]

The dwarf edits are still pending; I'll try to get then done this afternoon. This weekend has been pretty amazingly busy (my band, the Howdies, opened for **** Dale!!!

(King of the Surf Guitar, that is. Derned censor...)

Anyhow, now that the bragging is out of the way...
The elves of Rivendell as used in this book strike me as (D&D) high elves, mostly Commoner, Expert, or Bardic (some of them were greatly conserned with a trio of trolls in the area). Elrond is probably a Plot Device- 20, like Gandalf, with a specialization in Legend Lore.

Orcrist: bastard sword +3, orc/goblin/giant bane
Glamdring: longsword +2, holy, keen, light burst
Sting: medium-sized dagger +3, holy, keen, Det. Evil w/in 50' (brightness modified by proximity and quantity/quality of Evil being detected).

Be back later!

[Cieyrin]

Sting is a bit more specific than that, as well as I think mildly sentient (at least one of the WotC designers thought so, given the picture in Unearthed Arcana's Item Familiars of Sting in all but name). http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/UnA_Gallery/79173.jpg I'd place Sting as a Small Shortsword whose Special Purpose is defeating Orcs and it can detect Orcs (the book describing it as glowing when orcs draw near in both the Hobbit and LotR), while being +X (not sure the bonus to give it) and probably being Keen and Defending and maybe Holy, though that seems to be more Glamdring's schtick than Sting's.

[Flemkopf]

Would it be possible and/or practical for you to post your Hobbit campaign plans and notes? I've been trying to pull together a decent campaign for my group and this is something that they would enjoy.

[Larkas]

I'd place Sting as a Small Shortsword whose Special Purpose is defeating Orcs and it can detect Orcs (the book describing it as glowing when orcs draw near in both the Hobbit and LotR), while being +X (not sure the bonus to give it) and probably being Keen and Defending and maybe Holy, though that seems to be more Glamdring's schtick than Sting's.

I don't think it would be a small Shortsword, since it is said in the book that it is elven, and hence, medium. I remember something about it being a dagger, a long knife or something like that. Hence, it should probably be a medium Dagger.

[Uncensored]

He was independently wealthy and vaguely aristocratic, in a hobbitish way.

I'm pretty sure he was only really aristocratic after he came home with loot from the dragon.

[Taelas]

I think it's fair to say he was at least well off, if not precisely wealthy. He did play host to 13 dwarves (with protests, sure, but he was capable of it), and I'm not sure he ever actually did anything.

[Cieyrin]

I don't think it would be a small Shortsword, since it is said in the book that it is elven, and hence, medium. I remember something about it being a dagger, a long knife or something like that. Hence, it should probably be a medium Dagger.

I guess that's possible, though I'm just thinking from a 3.5 perspective, as the only people we see using Sting are Bilbo, Frodo and Sam, who are all Small and would take a size penalty for using it. Alternatively, a long knife is another description of a short sword, depending on how long they both are. A long knife tends to be 18-24", while a shortsword would be 24"-36", so they're both in the same range of length.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I agree that, personality-wise, Bilbo was an Aristocrat.. which is to say, he lives a life of ease, without needing to work for a very comfortable living. His resources available were such that thirteen houseguests would not unduly empty his larder, even by a Hobbit's standards.

However, the lack of Hide and Move Silently is something of a problem. Even his much higher dex than a Dwarf's (I don't think any of the dwarves had a Dex of 10, and Bilbo, while rather rotund, was quite nimble) He still managed to Move Silently to close with a group of Trolls, and by the end of the book, made a Hide check vs an Adult (or older) Dragon, which is practically an epic skill check.

Then again, bog-standard halflings do have a +2 racial bonus to Move Silently, and being a small creature, he has a +4 size bonus to Hide checks... this can go a long way to explain his stealthiness even without having the skills as class skills.

Expert might do it, he was an expert on maps, if you wish to stretch it that far.

Rogue would not do at all, at least not upon leaving the Shire. It just doesn't suit him at all, however you can bet he took several levels in Rogue after leaving.

I'd put him at Expert1/Rogue5 by the end of the book, with Rogue3 about the time he dealt with the Attercops. It was a perfect example of using a Ring of Improved Invisibility to make your opponents flat-footed to deal additional sneak attack damage.

As far as his gear... while Sting may have been a 'dagger', let us call it a Small Shortsword for mechanic's sake. Or you could pull a Sun Sword and make it usable either as a small shortsword or as a medium dagger. I would agree that it was a mildly sentient (Ego around 10) weapon whose Purpose was to kill Orcs, with a dedicated bonus of the +2 luck bonus to attacks, saves, and checks. The glow whenever orcs were near was probably it's method of communicating with Bilbo.

His Mithral Chain Shirt was also likely a +1 with Fortitude (he was knocked out, but not killed... and later on, Frodo got critted by a troll and wasn't slain outright).

[Taelas]

Mithril, mithral is the D&D-version.

I suppose it'd be fine to model the mithril shirt with a +1 mithral chain shirt or something, but I don't see the need for Fortification at all.

[Suteinu]

1. The dwarves have been feated, plus one or two minor edits.

2. Sting, by my reading, is definately a medium-sized elvish dagger; a small knife for a troll, but as good as a shortsword for our burgeoning burglar. Although there is a valid argument for it being a small shortsword, considering who handles it throughout the hobbits' adventures, I am doing this based more on "fluff" than optimization, adapting D&D to Tolkien rather than the other way `round. This is merely for my own enjoyment, and I've never much given a fig for game-balance that interfears with fun and clever playing. The Sun Sword approach is an interesting idea, though. Also, I see the point made about exactly what enchantment makes Sting... sting. Perhapse making it an Ancestral Relic, or would that not be enough enchantment in time?
The important part of this project to me is to be faithful to Tolkien's story-telling, to keep things simple if at all possible, and to develope these stats and things as I read that story (like I said, it'll take a while as opposed to me reading merely for my own enjoyment. We "Over Hill and Under Hill" to-day).

3. Tolkien's goblins (as depicted in this book) should probably simply be represented by orcs. The impression I get is that "goblin" is an alternate or coloquial term that some use for orcses- er, orcs, despite the fact that Jackson's rendering of goblins in Moria clearly differentiates them from orcs. This is still open for discussion, of course. Their King should probably have class levels as a barbarian (typical) or a marshal (war-leader), and a Deformity (BoVE) feat, say, an oversized head w/ a bite attack (equivelant to the clawed deformity)?

4. Flemkopf Re: "What's a burrahobbit... (And can yer cook'em)?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would it be possible and/or practical for you to post your Hobbit campaign plans and notes? I've been trying to pull together a decent campaign for my group and this is something that they would enjoy.

I haven't made any notes other than what you see here, really, except for the outlines that I've made to write these entries. I was inspired by the trailor for the movie (December? That LONG? Come ON!) and by the Commoner Handbook (elsewhere on this Forum). I have made a couple of commoners based on thei guide, and yes, the first one was a halfling, but I have as yet no planned campaign. My son loves the idea, though, so that may be our Summer Vacation game. I'll post ideas on that if you will:smallwink:!

[Suteinu]

P.S.,

Bilbo is now 2nd level, of course, and it is... Rogue!

Strongheart halfl- er, hobbit, Small
Ari- 1/ Rge- 1
hp 14
S- 10, D- 16, C- 12, I- 14, W- 14, C- 13
F- +1, R- +5, W- +6 (+8 vs. Fear)
Proudfeats: Halfling Lore (Bckgrnd), Iron Will
Skills: Appraisal +4, Climb +2, Cr (Cook) +6, Decipher Script +4, Hide +12, Jump +2, Listen +6, Kn (Geography) +3, (History) +5, (Local) +7, (Nature) +3, Move Silently +10, Pref (Blowing Smoke Rings) +3, Prof (Country squire) +3, Search +2, Sense Motive +6, Spot +4
Sp: Trapsense, Sneak Attack +1d6
Equ: clothe on his back, no hat, no walking stick not even a pocket handerchief (untill Gandalf brought some), pipe (also brought by Gandalf the plot-point), weathered pale-green hood and cloak (slightly too big), the as yet unnamed Sting (magical elvish dagger, still being designed).

[Suteinu]

1. The dwarves have been feated, plus one or two minor edits.

2. Sting, by my reading, is definately a medium-sized elvish dagger; a small knife for a troll, but as good as a shortsword for our burgeoning burglar. Although there is a valid argument for it being a small shortsword, considering who handles it throughout the hobbits' adventures, I am doing this based more on "fluff" than optimization, adapting D&D to Tolkien rather than the other way `round. This is merely for my own enjoyment, and I've never much given a fig for game-balance that interfears with fun and clever playing. The Sun Sword approach is an interesting idea, though. Also, I see the point made about exactly what enchantment makes Sting... sting. Perhapse making it an Ancestral Relic, or would that not be enough enchantment in time?
The important part of this project to me is to be faithful to Tolkien's story-telling, to keep things simple if at all possible, and to develope these stats and things as I read that story (like I said, it'll take a while as opposed to me reading merely for my own enjoyment. We "Over Hill and Under Hill" to-day).

3. Tolkien's goblins (as depicted in this book) should probably simply be represented by orcs. The impression I get is that "goblin" is an alternate or coloquial term that some use for orcses- er, orcs, despite the fact that Jackson's rendering of goblins in Moria clearly differentiates them from orcs. This is still open for discussion, of course. Their King should probably have class levels as a barbarian (typical) or a marshal (war-leader), and a Deformity (BoVE) feat, say, an oversized head w/ a bite attack (equivelant to the clawed deformity)?

4. Flemkopf Re: "What's a burrahobbit... (And can yer cook'em)?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would it be possible and/or practical for you to post your Hobbit campaign plans and notes? I've been trying to pull together a decent campaign for my group and this is something that they would enjoy.

I haven't made any notes other than what you see here, really, except for the outlines that I've made to write these entries. I was inspired by the trailor for the movie (December? That LONG? Come ON!) and by the Commoner Handbook (elsewhere on this Forum). I have made a couple of commoners based on thei guide, and yes, the first one was a halfling, but I have as yet no planned campaign. My son loves the idea, though, so that may be our Summer Vacation game. I'll post ideas on that if you will:smallwink:!

[mattie_p]

3. Tolkien's goblins (as depicted in this book) should probably simply be represented by orcs. The impression I get is that "goblin" is an alternate or coloquial term that some use for orcses- er, orcs, despite the fact that Jackson's rendering of goblins in Moria clearly differentiates them from orcs. This is still open for discussion, of course.

As far as I can tell, based on my readings of The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion, you are correct. Goblins = Orcs.

[Suteinu]

OK, I'm in a bit of a bind here. I'm going to start reading them "Riddles in the Dark" today. While I think that something like a riddle game (and especially the Riddle Game) are best represented by role-playing, and I would certainly award more experience for the player actually winning the game instead of the dice, I think that there should be a back-up rolling system for players who aren't as clever as their characters. Also, this will make it easier to figure out how much XP Bilbo earned in this encounter (or will earn, once I've read the chapter).

I think the best options are 1) Knowledge checks of the appropriate fields of expertise, 2) Int checks (for logic), 3) Wis checks (for insight), or 4) Bardic Knowledge checks (when applicable). Pick one for each character and make contested checks. This is quick and easy, but I don't know if there are any pre-existing rules on riddle games, nor if anyone has a more thorough or a more streamlined system.

And I have an idea for building Gollum, but what ECL do y'all think he should be?

[Cieyrin]

For Bilbo to have had a fighting chance, I think he definitely had Int and Knowledges to back him up to help him unravel the riddles. Int would probably be the main check, though having appropriate Knowledges should give him a bonus to that check, with a synergy bonus for each Knowledge he has enough ranks in (5 ranks being the standard). Alternatively, Bardic Knowledge is designed explicitly for handling riddles, so they should be able to use it just as easily, if not more so. If you want the mechanics to be more entwined with the riddle game, I'd say make the checks give hints, with every 5 points above the DC giving additional hints till the threshold is achieved when they outright know the answer. This threshold should change depending on the difficulty of the riddle.

For example, an easy riddle would have a DC of 5 for a hint, 10 for the answer. A moderate riddle would have DC 10 and 15 for hints and 20 for the answer. Hard riddles would give hints at 15, 20 and 25 and the answer at 30, while impossible riddles give hints at 20, 25, 30, 35 and the answer at 40.

This, of course, is if the player can't figure it out themselves, but you could probably optimize for riddle mastery without having to be a bard (though that helps) as a Wizard, Cloistered Cleric, Expert (Sage) by getting to synergy bonus in those Knowledges (there are 10 published Knowledges in Core, plus additional ones in other sources) for +20 synergy plus your Int bonus, which can get up to +10-12 for a total bonus of ~+30 at high levels, which is enough to deal with those impossible riddles. Bards and Loremasters will obviously have an easier time of it, since their class features give them a second check that scales better, plus they don't have to throw 50 skill points for synergy bonuses to gain knowledge of the esoteric that riddles often draw from.

[Zubrowka74]

As far as I can tell, based on my readings of The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and the Silmarillion, you are correct. Goblins = Orcs.

And would add :

Goblins = Orcs = Tainted elves

Which explains the angular features and pointed ears.

[Suteinu]

OK, another try at Sting...

I agree initially with the orc-bane theory, but sting proved just as effective against the spiders in Mirkwood, and later against Shelob. Was it used against any other types of foes? right now, I'm figuring:

Med. elvish dagger +2 or +3, orc (goblin) bane, vermin bane, keen, defender, perfect balance; Mithril (for fluff?).

Also, I'm figuring a build for Gollum (Commn-3/Rge-?/Suprise PrC-?). ECL-??? I'm thinking `round about 6 or 7...

[Taelas]

Mithril isn't elf-made, it's dwarf-made.

[mattie_p]

Also, I'm figuring a build for Gollum (Commn-3/Rge-?/Suprise PrC-?). ECL-??? I'm thinking `round about 6 or 7...

Gollum - Halfling Paragon 3/Rogue 1 / Shadow thief of Amn 4 (players guide to faerun, need to refluff)

[Kol Korran]

i think Golum may have quite a few level in either ranger or scout, self taught. he makes quite a good living in the wild, and later in LOTR he successfully tracks, follows the groups, and later leads the two hobbits through quite a lot of hostile terrain successfully.

i think mostly a mix of the ranger/ scout classes with the rogue class. not too high, but he does show quite a hig level of skill.
"stealthy" is a must of course.

those are my thoughts at least.

[mattie_p]

i think Golum may have quite a few level in either ranger or scout, self taught. he makes quite a good living in the wild, and later in LOTR he successfully tracks, follows the groups, and later leads the two hobbits through quite a lot of hostile terrain successfully.

i think mostly a mix of the ranger/ scout classes with the rogue class. not too high, but he does show quite a hig level of skill.
"stealthy" is a must of course.

those are my thoughts at least.

Very possible, he also survived in the caves for hundreds of years, dodging orcs and stuff. I wish I had an underdark book, probably a good PrC there. Favored Enemy: Orcs, Halflings? Max ranks hide, move silently. He definitely likes to sneak attack while invisible. Give him claws/bite as natural weapons. As indicated in the final climactic scene, blindsense?

[Cieyrin]

OK, another try at Sting...

I agree initially with the orc-bane theory, but sting proved just as effective against the spiders in Mirkwood, and later against Shelob. Was it used against any other types of foes? right now, I'm figuring:

Med. elvish dagger +2 or +3, orc (goblin) bane, vermin bane, keen, defender, perfect balance; Mithril (for fluff?).

Also, I'm figuring a build for Gollum (Commn-3/Rge-?/Suprise PrC-?). ECL-??? I'm thinking `round about 6 or 7...

I don't think Sting is especially effective against vermin as it is against orcs, just that it has a strong standard enchantment on it and that the Mirkwood Spiders aren't high HP critters. Also consider that Bilbo was gaining Rogue levels throughout The Hobbit, meaning he was gaining Sneak Attack dice, so if he flanked or caught a target off guard, he could apply it, which also helps considerably with his damage output without being contributed completely to Sting being an awesome weapon. Bilbo tended to go for the single decisive blow, which translates to a Feint and Sneak Attack.

There's also the argument that you could represent LotR as an E6 game and that the threats, while certainly scary, are gritty scary for mortal men and other common races and that there are few high level characters in the setting. In that light, the spiders are threatening to everybody without having HD bloat have to account for it and then try to figure out make DPR make sense.

[nedz]

Bilbo ends up with 3 levels in Ruather.

[Suteinu]

Sorry it has been so long since my last post. We're now reading "Flies and Spiders," so here's how things stand currently:

Sting (based on the lit, your input, and Decipher's version): Med. keen orc-bane dagger +3, det. orcs w/in 500 yds. (glow intensifies w/ number and proximity of orcs, as bright as a torch w/in 100 yds., light acts like Daylight to orcses eyes, yes it does, Precious... ahem...)

Rats! Have to go! More later!

[Suteinu]

The Eagles: Giant eagles from the MMI; the Lord of the Eagles should probably be an advanced celestial giant eagle.

Beorn: Were-bear w/ levels of Beastmaster. A cheat, I know, but he is also a bit of a plot device.

The Ring of Invisibility: In this story, in Bilbo's hands (on his hand?), it is a ring of Improved Invisibility that leaves a faint shadow in direct Daylight; it is activated while worn, and seems to protect one from more supernatural senses (dragon senses), except for hearing. Sure, it also has a sense of self-preservation, and can alter its size slightly to slip from a wearer's finger should it choose to do so, and all this implies sentience, and it has even more powers in the hands of "greater station," but this is quite enough for this book.

[hamishspence]

The fiercebane property in DMG2 is perfect for this. A Synergy trait (so needing to be added to an existing bane weapon), and +2, it does extra damage on a crit, and glows when the designated foe comes within 100 ft, even if the wielder cannot see the foe.

[Cieyrin]

The Ring of Invisibility: In this story, in Bilbo's hands (on his hand?), it is a ring of Improved Invisibility that leaves a faint shadow in direct Daylight; it is activated while worn, and seems to protect one from more supernatural senses (dragon senses), except for hearing. Sure, it also has a sense of self-preservation, and can alter its size slightly to slip from a wearer's finger should it choose to do so, and all this implies sentience, and it has even more powers in the hands of "greater station," but this is quite enough for this book.

It could be a ring of Superior Invisibility (Spell Compendium) that grants the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) which doesn't cover hearing, since no amount of invisibility is gonna cover for you speaking and giving yourself away.

[Doug Lampert]

I think it's fair to say he was at least well off, if not precisely wealthy. He did play host to 13 dwarves (with protests, sure, but he was capable of it), and I'm not sure he ever actually did anything.

I'm fairly sure that the apendices and family background indicate where his land-holdings were and that he was the landlord for a fair number of farmers.

He was The Bagins of Bag End, the most prominent home in Hobbiton.

He was closely related to both the Took and Brandybuck families, both of which are fairly clearly aristocratic hereditary rulers who can put a 100 or more militia fighters in the field at need (I'd have to reread the end of the LotR to get more exact numbers for the Tooks, but the reinforcements they can spare from defending their own land are a decisive edge for the Hobbiton area hobbits in the main battle).

He was the only living member of his particular subbranch of the families, and had inherited from a fair number of people. By most hobbit's standards I suspect he was filthy rich even prior to the adventure, he certainly did not work for a living. I suspect prior to his adventure he was not particularly well off by his relatives' standards, but his closest living relatives included hereditary rulers and owners of substantial land.

I have no trouble seeing him as rich enough to be an Aristocrat, the question is, do we want to give him ANY NPC levels? Bilbo is a PC, the fact that his backstory says he's 50 when he goes on his first adventure doesn't change that. The fact that his backstory says "rich and aristocratic" also doesn't change that.

[Suteinu]

Bilbo Baggins, as of his entering Mirkwood

Strongheart halfl- er, hobbit, Small
Ari- 1/ Rge- 3
hp 25
S- 10, D- 16, C- 12, I- 14, W- 14, C- 14
F- +2, R- +6, W- +7 (+9 vs. Fear)
Proudfeats: Halfling Lore (Bckgrnd), Iron Will, Weapon Finesse
Skills: Appraisal +4, Bluff +7, Climb +2, Cr (Cook) +6, Decipher Script +4, Diplomacy +6, Disguise +4, Hide +12, Intimidation +4, Jump +2, Listen +6, Kn (Geography) +3, (History) +5, (Local) +7, (Nature) +3, Move Silently +12, Perf (Blowing Smoke Rings) +4, Prof (Country squire) +3, Search +7, Sense Motive +7, Slight of Hand +9, Spot +9
Sp: Trapsense, Sneak Attack +2d6, Trapsense +1
Equ: clothes on his back, no hat, no walking stick not even a pocket handerchief (untill Gandalf brought some), pipe (also brought by Gandalf the plot-point), weathered pale-green hood and cloak (slightly too big), Sting (magical elvish dagger +3, med., keen, fiercebane orc-bane), ring of superior invisibility (except it doesn't affect sound).

Gollum is a tough one. I'm thinking Cmn-1/Rge (Wilderness Rogue varriant)-4/Flesheater (Drgn #300)-2, with a bit of tweeking here and there, a Flaw or a couple of Traits, perhapse. The description of his eyes and how they see in the dark of the mountain makes me think My Light (psi-power).

That's it for now. I'll try to find Fiercebane (I don't have a DMG2), and an LoM file. Next entry aught to be the SPIDERS and the elves. I'm pretty sure we can chalk-up the impending barrel ride to balance checks!

[hamishspence]

Fiercebane property is caster level 12, requires the Summon Monster I spell to make, radiates a Strong aura of conjuration. Like Bane it is always active.

X2 crit weapons get extra 1d10 damage on a crit.
X3 crit weapons get extra 2d10 damage on a crit.
X4 crit weapons get extra 3d10 damage on a crit.

that's pretty much all the remaining info needed.

[Suteinu]

The spiders featured in Mirkwood strike me as awakened medium-sized monstrous spiders, Int about 5 or 6 (displacer beast range). They don't need to be Shelob-sized (P.J., are you reading this? Of course not!), and Bilbo was able to dispatch them pretty handily.

The elves of Mirkwood are obviously purple-skinned half-drow gobllins, the nobility of whom can be identified by their lousy mock-German accents while their foot soldiers sound exactly like the local humans. Level 1 commoners all!

(Sigh) OK, they're wood elves; warriors, bards, rangers, and optimized commoners... Shee, some people just can't take a joke...:smallwink:

[Suteinu]

We're in Laketown, now, amid a bunch of humans (w/ a few wood elves) of heroic ancestry but meager modern means. They strike me as commoners and warriors, but there must be glimmers of their past greatness; we've not yet been introduced to Bard. We have been introduced to the town's lord mayor, who strikes me as a sneaky political snivler who uses the ins-and-outs of river trade to keep himself in his station and tends to follow the flow of public opinion so as not to ruffle feathers (either Rogue or Expert; maybe Noble from Dragonlance).

[Suteinu]

OK. Now Smaug.

I don't think a simple red dragon is quite right. In one of the last real-world editions of Dragon, there was a Beowulf article, and I think that the dragon presented there is a good starting point.

I'd like help designing two versions of Smaug: one for "regular" D&D 3.5, who will be pretty derned powerful by any standards, and one E6 version, which appeals to me but with which I am too unfamiliar to design.