Maneuver Pre-reqs

[Person_Man]

Some Tome of Battle maneuvers have pre-requisites. In general, the higher the level, the more maneuvers you must know from that discipline. But it's oddly inconsistent. For example, Death Mark (Desert Wind, Swordsage 3) has no pre-reqs. But Fire Riposte (Desert Wind, Swordsage 2) has a pre-req of One Desert Wind maneuver, even though it's lower level. Diamond Defense (Diamond Mind, Swordsage or Warblade 8) has no pre-reqs, but Quicksilver Motion (Diamond Mind, Swordsage or Warblade 7) has a pre-req of Three Diamond Mind maneuvers even though it's lower level.

I've played with Tome of Battle since a few weeks after it was published, and I haven't been able to figure out a reason or pattern. What am I missing?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm going to guess it has a lot to do with poor editing.

[skycycle blues]

Probably, the designers didn't think it through enough before the book went to print. If I remember correctly, they forgot to give an pre-reqs to the 9th level Stone Dragon maneuver too.

[HunterOfJello]

Short Explanation: There isn't one.


Long Explanation: There is a logic behind it, but much of the logic can't be easily read in to. Some schools require more focus into them to gain different maneuvers while other school require very little focus at all. The Tiger Claw maneuvers almost all have prerequisites while many of the Stone Dragon maneuvers can be entered in to without trouble. There are a few possibly reasons that it may have been done this way, but we don't really know what was going on in the developers minds since they were jerks and didn't release any errata or anything.


A few possible reasons:
Slow down progression for people spreading out their focus too much
Set up proper maneuver progressions to encourage players to follow
Stop players from grabbing only high level maneuvers and not lower level ones
Confuse the crap out of us through the funky maneuver progression mechanic of gaining a maneuver in one school while using a previous maneuver as both a pre-req and a drop maneuver (yes, you can do this).
Encourage us to drop low level maneuvers.
Encourage focus on specific character archetypes instead of having funky do-everything characters.

[Chronos]

I think the lack of prereqs on the 9th-level Stone Dragon maneuver was deliberate. It's possible, if you don't plan out your build, to find that you don't actually qualify for any of the other 9ths, on reaching the level where you should be able to get one. It'd suck to completely exclude a character from 9th level maneuvers for that, so they made one that everyone can qualify for. It's no coincidence that it's the one from the school all three classes have access to.

[Particle_Man]

Confuse the crap out of us through the funky maneuver progression mechanic of gaining a maneuver in one school while using a previous maneuver as both a pre-req and a drop maneuver (yes, you can do this).

I don't think so. If you lose the pre-req maneuver then unless you gain another maneuver that can function as a pre-req maneuver then you can't use the maneuver that the pre-req maneuver was a pre-req of.

[Ernir]

I think it really is just "whatever the guy who wrote the maneuver thought might be appropriate at the time".

The more I read ToB, the more I am convinced that us ending up with such a usable system is a fluke. The book is covered in oddities like this.


I don't think so. If you lose the pre-req maneuver then unless you gain another maneuver that can function as a pre-req maneuver then you can't use the maneuver that the pre-req maneuver was a pre-req of.
Do you have a source for that?

[Zombimode]

Some higher level have to be without prereqs for Martial Study.
Now on the way how they had been choosen... I have no idea.

[limejuicepowder]

Some higher level have to be without prereqs for Martial Study.
Now on the way how they had been choosen... I have no idea.

This, along with encouraging people to dip in ToB later in character careers. Who wants to take their 13th character level as a warblade, and be stuck with first level maneuvers? I think the designers made the initiator system with this in mind; to be able to take level-appropriate abilities, regardless of when the ToB levels are actually taken.

[Prime32]

Honestly I just ignore the prereqs, and I know a lot of DMs who do likewise. It makes character building much longer than it needs to be.

[Person_Man]

So what are people's thoughts on the ideal structure of what should have been written? Should maneuvers and stances have pre-reqs, and if so, how should it be structured?

Pro Pre-reqs Arguments: You don't want the Martial Study and Martial Stance Feats to be too powerful. It makes thematic fluff sense that you would need to know some lower level maneuvers before you learn higher level maneuvers. It discourages cherry picking and level dipping.

Anti Pre-reqs Argument: Feats should be powerful. Fluff is whatever I want it to be, and shouldn't be enforced with crunch. I shouldn't have to take something I don't want to get something I do want. I have no qualms about balance or multi-classing.


I think I fall in the middle somewhere - there should be pre-reqs, but they should be light. Nothing for 1st-2nd level maneuvers, one for 3rd-5th, two for 6-8th, three for 9th. But I could probably be convinced otherwise.

[Particle_Man]

Do you have a source for that?

General rules on prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, etc. follow that pattern. I don't see why maneuvers would be so different.

[skycycle blues]

General rules on prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, etc. follow that pattern. I don't see why maneuvers would be so different.

They would be different because they don't say that they follow that same rule. And applying that rule to Prestige Classes is debatable since it makes Ur-Priest and Dragon Devotee not work.

[Andorax]

As I understand it, the variance is thought out and intentional, for the reasons posted.


There isn't universal consistency (all 1st and 2nd have no preqs, all 3rd and 4th have 1, etc.), but I think you'll find that the vast majority fall into fairly well defined bands.

YMMV, but it also seems as if the "best" ones consistently have more preqs. All else being equal, if there are two 4th level maneuvers, and one has a preq of 2 other maneuvers, while the other has no preqs, the first one will be the better maneuver.


So yes, it's intentional. It's to require a certain amount of focus in a given discipline to attain the higher levels of power within it. They're not intended to be an open grab-bag for which level alone is all you need to get them.

[Particle_Man]

They would be different because they don't say that they follow that same rule. And applying that rule to Prestige Classes is debatable since it makes Ur-Priest and Dragon Devotee not work.

If you play that way, I imagine there are enough tricks around (perhaps psychic reformation, thought bottle, chaos shuffle, or something else) that the idea of prerequisites for any maneuvers will soon become meaningless.

I have no idea if my way is RAW, but if it isn't, it is my anti-cheese house rule and I am sticking to it. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

I'm pretty sure that ToB explicitly says that you retain use of a maneuver even if you lose its prerequisites, as long as you had them when you took the maneuver.

[Keld Denar]

YMMV, but it also seems as if the "best" ones consistently have more preqs. All else being equal, if there are two 4th level maneuvers, and one has a preq of 2 other maneuvers, while the other has no preqs, the first one will be the better maneuver.

I've noticed this. Especially among maneuvers that scale better. Sudden Leap is a 1st level maneuver. It's useful all the way to 20. Same with Wall of Blades and Baffling Defense and Emerald Razor. Saphire Nightmare Blade doesn't scale, its replaced by other better maneuvers, and thus has fewer prereqs than other maneuvers its level. It's not universal, but it is a trend I've noticed.

[Particle_Man]

I'm pretty sure that ToB explicitly says that you retain use of a maneuver even if you lose its prerequisites, as long as you had them when you took the maneuver.

Really? Where?

[Andorax]

I've noticed this. Especially among maneuvers that scale better. Sudden Leap is a 1st level maneuver. It's useful all the way to 20. Same with Wall of Blades and Baffling Defense and Emerald Razor. Saphire Nightmare Blade doesn't scale, its replaced by other better maneuvers, and thus has fewer prereqs than other maneuvers its level. It's not universal, but it is a trend I've noticed.

One of the other things I've done is put together "feat packs" for non-Bo9S characters...using the Martial Maneuver and Martial Stance feats. Typically, these target the levels 6, 12, 15 and 18 feat choices and grant a 2nd level maneuver with no prereqs, a 3rd level stance with 1 prq, a 4th level maneuver with 1 prq, and a 5th level maneuver with 2 prqs. It's one of the ways I've been warming my players up to Bo9S. Putting those packs together required some careful maneuvering to be sure I got all the preqs covered...but they've gone over rather well.

[Necroticplague]

This makes me wonder a bit. Lets say my warblade has Sudden Leap (equires one Tiger Claw). Could I then switch out Claw at The Moon that I used to qualify for Sudden Leap, since Sudden Leap now self-qualifies, since it is a Tiger Claw maneuver, therefore having it meets the prerequisites of having a Tiger Claw maneuver.

[Answerer]

Yes, maneuvers count for their own prereqs after you know them. So you couldn't have learned Sudden Leap without another Tiger Claw maneuver, but you can ready it without another since it only requires 1 Tiger Claw maneuver, and it is one.

[Particle_Man]

Yes, maneuvers count for their own prereqs after you know them. So you couldn't have learned Sudden Leap without another Tiger Claw maneuver, but you can ready it without another since it only requires 1 Tiger Claw maneuver, and it is one.

That seems cheesy to me. I would house rule against it if that is RAW.

[Dusk Eclipse]

How is that cheesy? Can you please explain me your reasoning for that?

[Gharkash]

Going with a strict interpretation of the rules, you would only need to have the appropriate number of maneuvers to meet a prerequisite when you needed to learn the maneuver, not if you wanted to ready or use that maneuver later.

From here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19525942/Tome_of_Battle_Q38;A?post_id=331831378#331831378).

[Answerer]

I see numerous answers that are wrong in there, though, so that's kind of meaningless.

The RAW is very clear, however. You are required to know however many maneuvers of such-and-such discipline in order to learn some maneuvers of that discipline. Once learned, that maneuver is a maneuver from that discipline, and so would count towards its own prerequisite if relevant (i.e. if you choose to swap one of the maneuvers you had used for its prerequisite for one of another discipline).


However, it honestly makes little different: the maneuver prerequisites are, for the most part, really dumb. They don't greatly affect the balance of any of the classes, and the limitation on it for multiclassing characters or those taking Martial Study is dumb because those characters are already penalized for having a lower Initiator Level than they would have if a single-classed martial adept; they don't need yet another penalty. Getting things that are not level-appropriate is dumb.

I strongly recommend ignoring them entirely. They add very little to the game, do not strongly influence balance one way or another, and most importantly, are exceedingly annoying to try to keep track of.

[gomipile]

Have you ever tried to build a Warblade or Crusader for mid to high levels, Particle Man?

It becomes very hard(read: impossible except for Stone Dragon) to keep up to date in maneuvers for even two schools unless you let maneuvers work without still having their prerequisites. Basically, played your way, the ability to switch out maneuvers every even level is meaningless at several levels, rather than being useful every time.

So, if the designers intended the ability to switch out maneuvers every two levels to be actually useful, then the RAI is that they intended maneuvers to be usable even if their prerequisites are no longer met.

[Answerer]

I don't know if I'd go that far. But it is a massive pain to do.

[Gharkash]

I think gomipile is right on this one. I built a swordsage recently, and even though he has the widest selection and most known maneuvers, i managed to focus on the three disciplines, not equally.

Pre-reqs surely are frustrating but if they were made in order to be able to grab maneuvers from many discipline, but to need focus to get the best of the disciplines, i think they are fairly well placed.

[JoshuaZ]

I think the lack of prereqs on the 9th-level Stone Dragon maneuver was deliberate. It's possible, if you don't plan out your build, to find that you don't actually qualify for any of the other 9ths, on reaching the level where you should be able to get one. It'd suck to completely exclude a character from 9th level maneuvers for that, so they made one that everyone can qualify for. It's no coincidence that it's the one from the school all three classes have access to.

I think you've hit on the real issue. This is a definite (although not likely) problem if one didn't have that option.

[Particle_Man]

How is that cheesy? Can you please explain me your reasoning for that?

To me it reads like a feat that has itself as its own prerequisite. To me, the idea of a "prerequisite" suggests that you need something else in order to get it and maintain it, not using itself to get/maintain itself (like some sort of circular argument in logic, perhaps, or getting a million dollar interest-free loan using the million dollars you just got as collateral if you default). Others may see it differently, of course. :smallsmile:


Have you ever tried to build a Warblade or Crusader for mid to high levels, Particle Man?

It becomes very hard(read: impossible except for Stone Dragon) to keep up to date in maneuvers for even two schools unless you let maneuvers work without still having their prerequisites. Basically, played your way, the ability to switch out maneuvers every even level is meaningless at several levels, rather than being useful every time.

So, if the designers intended the ability to switch out maneuvers every two levels to be actually useful, then the RAI is that they intended maneuvers to be usable even if their prerequisites are no longer met.

Actually I have done it (I am playing a 13th level crusader now). Apparently I have had an easier time with it than you would have, had you used those restrictions. :smallsmile: I use the switch outs to "upgrade" stuff that is in the "known but not usually used" pile, so that if I know that I am going up against something that (for a crusader) is my exact alignment or (for anyone) involves me not being firmly on the ground, I can spend 5 minutes and switch things up accordingly, and still do ok. I do all right with it, under the restrictions as I understand them.

Btw, I do note that the Swordsage only level 9th stuff has more prereqs than, say, the Crusader only level 9th stuff - perhaps because the swordsage gets so many maneuvers known (1 per level, plus a switch out every even level above 3rd).

[Answerer]

To me it reads like a feat that has itself as its own prerequisite. To me, the idea of a "prerequisite" suggests that you need something else in order to get it and maintain it, not using itself to get/maintain itself (like some sort of circular argument in logic, perhaps, or getting a million dollar interest-free loan using the million dollars you just got as collateral if you default). Others may see it differently, of course. :smallsmile:
"Prerequisite" means you need it before you can learn the maneuver. After you learn the maneuver, however, you are free to swap the prerequisite.

Your interpretation is incorrect, but doesn't really make any kind of real difference other than arbitrarily limiting player options.

[Answerer]

To me it reads like a feat that has itself as its own prerequisite. To me, the idea of a "prerequisite" suggests that you need something else in order to get it and maintain it, not using itself to get/maintain itself (like some sort of circular argument in logic, perhaps, or getting a million dollar interest-free loan using the million dollars you just got as collateral if you default). Others may see it differently, of course. :smallsmile:
"Prerequisite" means you need it before you can learn the maneuver. After you learn the maneuver, however, you are free to swap the prerequisite. Readying the maneuver requires you to meet the prerequisite, but the maneuver itself counts towards that requirement.

RAW is clear here, but that almost doesn't matter compared to the fact that your houserule has almost negligible affect on play; it just arbitrarily removes a minor player option.

[Particle_Man]

"Prerequisite" means you need it before you can learn the maneuver. After you learn the maneuver, however, you are free to swap the prerequisite.

Your interpretation is incorrect, but doesn't really make any kind of real difference other than arbitrarily limiting player options.


"Prerequisite" means you need it before you can learn the maneuver. After you learn the maneuver, however, you are free to swap the prerequisite. Readying the maneuver requires you to meet the prerequisite, but the maneuver itself counts towards that requirement.

RAW is clear here, but that almost doesn't matter compared to the fact that your houserule has almost negligible affect on play; it just arbitrarily removes a minor player option.

Ok, which Answerer is from this dimension and which is from the nearby alternate dimension? :smallbiggrin:

[Talionis]

There is a logic to it some high level Manuevers were meant to be easier to get than others. The desert wind boosts that add fire damage to your attacks are all without prerequisites. All of the shadow hand teleports are without prerequisites. They were meant to be easier to splash for.

I have no problem with changing the prerequisites as you suggested. It would change things, both for good and bad. Either way it wouldn't change very much. I would lean to leaving it alone.

If you look at the Tome of Battle for Dummies they broke down the Manuevers by discipline level and number of prerequisites. That chart makes planning and shopping for picks far less a headache.

[Emperor Tippy]

I tend to get around the prerequisite maneuvers needed with gratuitous abuse of Psychic reformation and Chaos Shuffle.

Granted, it's most useful if you want to get a specific maneuver.

One trick, for example, is to use Martial Study to get a Shadowhand Maneuver, use Martial Stance to get Assassins Stance, and then shuffle away Martial Study. That effectively gives you a 2d6 sneak attack for the cost of one feat; which is useful for various builds.

[Answerer]

Ok, which Answerer is from this dimension and which is from the nearby alternate dimension? :smallbiggrin:
The forum was being difficult and double-posted, then I guess didn't delete the first one. I went and edited the second one because the original response struck me as overly antagonistic.... but I guess that effort was wasted since the Delete didn't work. Sorry if it did come across as such.