The Greatest Weapon Never Used in Star Trek

[DiscipleofBob]

Let me start this off by saying I'm not a diehard Trekkie. I'm only just now watching through all the series on netflix starting with original and Next Gen.

But something occured to me and I don't think it was addressed in any of the series. I could be wrong though.

The Holodeck: The best possible recreation and the worst possible catastrophes. I've seen bits and pieces of the holodeck screwing up things throughout the series. Even in early Next Gen La Forge (the freaking engineer) screws up and accidentally has the computer make a self-aware Moriarty who takes control of the ship from inside the holodeck.

Later in the series I've seen holograms leave the holodeck and basically get free roam of the ship. I'm pretty sure there was one episode where the whole ship was taken over by a hostile hologram which led to Klingons fighting Nazis or something.

Which leads me to this question: Why is this never weaponized? Forget phasers and torpedoes, with a few minor modifications (this is Star Trek you know) a holodeck, perhaps combined with replicator technology for good measure, could manifest any weapon you could think of and in effectively infinite supply. You could manifest dinosaur-riding robot ninja pirates on the deck of the enemy ship and no matter how well disciplined they'd be too bewildered to fight back.

Holo-jury rig up a room full of acid and drop it smack in the middle of enemy forces. Even if they survive it will wreak havoc on their ships' computer systems.

Or even better yet, with one holodeck generator create one or more ships with holodeck generators, then repeat the process until one holodeck creates an entire fleet of ships each armed with an infinite number of weapons and troops from whatever could possibly be imagined, and not just from human culture, but from every Federation race contributing every historical allegory, fairy tail, cultural myth, religion, etc all summonable at the push of a button.

Forget reversing the polarity on the power converters, forget bouncing a particle beam off the main deflector dish, if you need to make something up, do so with a holodeck. Borg Cube, meet Death Star.

[razark]

Forget phasers and torpedoes, with a few minor modifications (this is Star Trek you know) a holodeck, perhaps combined with replicator technology for good measure, could manifest any weapon you could think of and in effectively infinite supply.
If you have the replicator (which is really just a modified transporter), you don't even need the holodeck. Just feed the replicator the pattern you wish to produce. If I recall correctly, the holodeck used replicator technology to create the physical environment that the crew interacted with. Holograms were only used to create the illusion of a larger world within the room.

The problem with the replicator is that it requires energy and matter input. You can't simply go into infinite creation mode; a xerox machine will stop making copies when it runs out of ink or paper. Add in handwaving that certain things couldn't be created with a replicator (don't recall details here), and the fact that it's easier to create something that looks like it works in the holodeck (add in special effects) than an actual object that works in the real world. The holodeck can create the illusion that you're swinging around a lightsaber, but it can't create an actual lightsaber, because that would just violate physics.

[Saph]

There were dozens of potential weapon systems that were never used in Star Trek - they had the science and the technology, but just never put them to effective use. In-universe, the explanation seems to be that the Federation is absolutely terrible at military R&D. Out-of-universe, it's because writers would introduce something new for one episode and then forget about it.

Probably the most blatant example was the transporter-sniper-rifle from DS9. They get a weapon that can shoot through walls using easily available technology . . . and they forget about it completely and never use it again. It's especially blatant because later on, they did the "Siege of AR-558" episode, with Federation and Jem'Hadar attacking each other with WW1-style trench warfare. There were dozens of bits of previously-established technology that could have won the battle for them quickly easily, but it never occurred to anyone to use them.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The holodeck is a bunch of forcefields and a light show with some replicated stuff thrown in to round out edges.

The only real basis for an independent hologram is to make a mobile emitter for it, which was only done for the Doctor in Voyager with some time travel that left him a 29th(?) century piece of tech. In short well beyond the Federation/Alpha-Quadrant's technological capabilities. And while there are certain applications for holograms they are still fundamentally unstable entities, and Trek is well beyond the point where it would matter. Oh noes holographic T-rex... or right let's just phaser it. It can't be fundamentally stronger then the forcefields that make it up.

Any exceptions to this are either irreproducible accidents (I think there's a TNG episode with one hologram exiting the holodeck) or ****ty writing. The holodeck is easily the most despised of Trek inventions. I think the only time it was used meaningfully was to let Scotty visit the Enterprise no damn A, B, C, or D in one TNG episode.

(What's that the Doctor you say, okay fair enough. But two words for you: robot body)

[Karoht]

Transporter
Teleport the Anti-Matter in the ship directly onto the bridge.
Boom.
Win.

[DiscipleofBob]

The problem with the replicator is that it requires energy and matter input. You can't simply go into infinite creation mode; a xerox machine will stop making copies when it runs out of ink or paper. Add in handwaving that certain things couldn't be created with a replicator (don't recall details here), and the fact that it's easier to create something that looks like it works in the holodeck (add in special effects) than an actual object that works in the real world. The holodeck can create the illusion that you're swinging around a lightsaber, but it can't create an actual lightsaber, because that would just violate physics.

Two things that I can gather:

The energy and matter thing really isn't much of a problem because they're in space. There's random space particles and radiation that the Enterprise can feed off of. It's mentioned in at least one Star Trek episode (which one I can't remember for the life of me) that if the Enterprise or any ship were to be completely inert it would eventually starve itself of air and other important supplies because of the lack of particles being gathered to convert into air/other systems. There was also a web cartoon that parodied and lampshaded this where the ship couldn't take off due to "weather conditions" (it was foggy and they were worried they would hit a plane or something) but they were quickly running out of air and supplies because they were inert on the ground. That and there have been enough episodes where in a pinch engineering got a boost from some random nearby source of radiation to get done what they needed to get done.

Also, the holodeck can violate its own rules. In the Next Gen episode that had me thinking about this in the first place, the computer created a self-aware hologram that could control the holodeck and hack the ship's systems despite even engineering believing that to be impossible. Then there's the Voyager episode where the holographic people of Fair Haven start noting the program edits as "black magic" and end up trying to lynch crew members when the computer starts working. Then there's the Killing Game where holograms eventually break free and roam the ship. Not saying it's the norm, but there definitely is precedent for the holodeck technology to exceed its normal expectations.

[Tavar]

Voyager is a bit of an interesting example. Well, first off, it really shouldn't be used as justification for anything. Ever. But, with regards to holodeck stuff, the ship was modified so that their were holo-emitters throughout the ship, allowing the Doctor to travel throughout the ship.

Regarding energy, it doesn't matter with regards to normal energy usage patterns. Using the repicators in such a fashion would likely not be such a case.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Voyager is a bit of an interesting example. Well, first off, it really shouldn't be used as justification for anything. Ever. But, with regards to holodeck stuff, the ship was modified so that their were holo-emitters throughout the ship, allowing the Doctor to travel throughout the ship.

Umm that's wrong, there was the one episode with the Prometheus where the Doctor met the EMH Mk II that had them but Voyager did not.

Early on the Doctor couldn't leave sickbay except to go to the holodeck. Later they decided this was too limiting and wrote a story to give him his little shoulder tag so he could go anywhere.

[Yora]

Why is this never weaponized?
Because most Star Trek writters really are not that good. Right at the top of my mind, all the really good Star Trek episodes are about people outsmarting each other with no reliance on fancy tech.
If the Holodeck or the Deflector Dish are part of the plot, it is most likely a rather bad episode.

[The Glyphstone]

The question you should be asking is why the enemies of the week never attempt to weaponize said holodeck? Note that all of your examples, from Moriarty to the Killing Game, were the holodeck malfunctioning and causing trouble or potential harm - there's never been even a slight hint that the cast could so much as cause these problems at will, let alone employ them beneficially.

[Ravens_cry]

Transporter
Teleport the Anti-Matter in the ship directly onto the bridge.
Boom.
Win.
Generally speaking, with shields up, this is impossible. Sure, it makes a fine first strike capability, but once the element of surprise is gone and you are actually at war, it's pretty much useless.
Artificial gravity, make localized areas of a ship have more mass. So much more they collapse into a micro-blackhole and evaporate in a shower of Hawking radiation.

[razark]

Artificial gravity, make localized areas of a ship have more mass. So much more they collapse into a micro-blackhole and evaporate in a shower of Hawking radiation.
Replicate a sphere of plutonium on the enemy vessel. Use gravity technology to compress it. No more enemy ship.

Use replicator to replicate massive lump of something. Use treknobabble device to accelerate it to 99.9% light speed. Impact into enemy vessel.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Artificial black hole... replicated nuke.... both are bombs so it goes like this:

Make Bomb---> Shoot Bomb ---> Bomb Goes Boom on Enemy Shields --> Enemy shields are holding/down/XX%/whatever

Glorified. Proton. Torpedo.

[Ravens_cry]

Replicate a sphere of plutonium on the enemy vessel. Use gravity technology to compress it. No more enemy ship.

Replicators are transporters that use a stored, and less detailed, pattern.
Yes, this is a case where the authors *did* think of the implications, at least partially.
Unless you can suborn their own computers and replicators to make the plutonium, by passing any safety features to prevent the creation of large quantities of obviously dangerous materials, in which case you could just play around their shields, engines, environmental systems, warp core, et cetera.


Use replicator to replicate massive lump of something. Use treknobabble device to accelerate it to 99.9% light speed. Impact into enemy vessel.
The 'navigation shields' take of objects of similar energies while at warp, the most basic of basic shields.

[razark]

Make Bomb---> Shoot Bomb ---> Bomb Goes Boom on Enemy Shields --> Goto step 1. Repeat.
There ya go.

[Weezer]

The biggest one for me are the cloaked replicator mines (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Self-replicating_mine). If used beyond the limited use seen in the show you would have an exponentially growing, invisible, self-repairing mine field. That's a pretty terrifying weapon. Seed one or two mines in an enemy system and in a few days you've essentially blockaded the system and are able to hold it hostage.

[Tavar]

The biggest one for me are the cloaked replicator mines (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Self-replicating_mine). If used beyond the limited use seen in the show you would have an exponentially growing, invisible, self-repairing mine field. That's a pretty terrifying weapon. Seed one or two mines in an enemy system and in a few days you've essentially blockaded the system and are able to hold it hostage.

More than a few days. I mean, it takes quite a while to set up the field for the wormwhole, and that's a comparatively minuscule area compared with a system.

[razark]

The 'navigation shields' take of objects of similar energies while at warp, the most basic of basic shields.
When I say massive, I mean on the order of a small moon. Or a large moon. Navigational deflectors can't repel impacts of that magnitude.

[The Glyphstone]

When I say massive, I mean on the order of a small moon. Or a large moon. Navigational deflectors can't repel impacts of that magnitude.

No, but they can dodge. Space is BIG, remember, objects of that size aren't exactly lying around everywhere, and shipboard replicators wouldn't have the raw material or energy to create an object that size.

Kinetic impact weapons are great against planets - unless you can also strap warp engines to that moon and make it steerable, the target will see it coming and just get out of the way.

[Tavar]

When I say massive, I mean on the order of a small moon. Or a large moon. Navigational deflectors can't repel impacts of that magnitude.

And Trek tech can't really accelerate such objects. At least, not the tech that Starfleet has.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There ya go.

You ever heard of them running out of Proton Torpedoes? Because that is all it does and ever will do therefore will be put to the exact same story purposes. So I'm failing to see a significant improvement here.

[razark]

...shipboard replicators wouldn't have the raw material or energy to create an object that size.
Yeah, someone pointed that out earlier, but it was discarded, so I just ran with the idea.


And Trek tech can't really accelerate such objects. At least, not the tech that Starfleet has.
Trek tech can do one thing and one thing only. It can do "whatever the script calls for". That's the glory of fiction.

[Karoht]

And Trek tech can't really accelerate such objects. At least, not the tech that Starfleet has.
Repulsor/Tractor array was strong enough to mostly deflect another starship on a collision course at full impulse. But, had their thrusters and impulse been operational at the time, they would have dodged it normally.

But indeed, Starship not on the scale of a moon.

[razark]

So I'm failing to see a significant improvement here.
Never claimed it was an improvement. Just a new way to weaponize technology.

[Ravens_cry]

When I say massive, I mean on the order of a small moon. Or a large moon. Navigational deflectors can't repel impacts of that magnitude.
Even changing the physical constant of the universe, at least on a local scale, the Enterprise was barely able to toe an asteroid out of impacting a planet.
Not to mention that replicating that much matter would take at least as much energy as would be contained in that much matter, even with Treknobabble.
At least.
Q could do it, but, he's Q.

[Tavar]

Trek tech can do one thing and one thing only. It can do "whatever the script calls for". That's the glory of fiction.

If you meant to have "poorly written" in front of fiction, I agree.

I'd point out, to help my Case, Deja Q, where the ship was barely able to alter the Moon's path. Certainly not able to do it while in combat.

[Lord Seth]

Any exceptions to this are either irreproducible accidents (I think there's a TNG episode with one hologram exiting the holodeck)If you're referring to the second Moriarty episode ("Ship in a Bottle"), he actually didn't leave it. He set up the holodeck so that it looked like he and they were leaving it, but in fact they were still within it as part of a convoluted plan to trick Picard into revealing his command codes so he could take over the ship.

[Ravens_cry]

An early Holodeck episode (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Big_Goodbye_%28episode%29) had some 'Dixon Hill' villains leave the holodeck, but quickly dissolve away, less then a minute. It was rather creepy to be honest

[Prime32]

Transporter
Teleport the Anti-Matter in the ship directly onto the bridge.
Boom.
Win.Voyager transported an armed photon torpedo into a Borg Sphere once...

[razark]

Not to mention that replicating that much matter would take at least as much energy as would be contained in that much matter, even with Treknobabble.
I was told to ignore the lack energy/matter:

The energy and matter thing really isn't much of a problem because they're in space. There's random space particles and radiation that the Enterprise can feed off of.


If you meant to have "poorly written" in front of fiction, I agree.

I'd point out, to help my Case, Deja Q, where the ship was barely able to alter the Moon's path. Certainly not able to do it while in combat.
I'd like to point out that once you start throwing out the laws of physics, you can do anything. The laws of physics are broken a thousand different ways in every single episode. One week's writer says "Well, now the ship can do this." Next week's writer says "Well, now the crew has that machine." One series says "X cannot happen, it is not allowed in this universe." Another series comes along and says "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if they do X?" Consistency got better as the franchise progressed, but it's never been a high point.

[Ravens_cry]

I was told to ignore the lack energy/matter:

Enough to perhaps feed the Enterprise without having to refuel (I believe Star Trek starships are explicitly stated to have Bussard Ram-Jets). But a small moon, as crazy as it may sound, stretches credulity a bit more.

[razark]

Enough to perhaps feed the Enterprise without having to refuel (I believe Star Trek starships are explicitly stated to have Bussard Ram-Jets). But a small moon, as crazy as it may sound, stretches credulity a bit more.
I never quite figured out how they were supposed to do the refueling by scooping up hydrogen from space thing. Yes, that could handle the matter part, but their antimatter is coming from where? If they're going to make stuff up, at least make it slightly more plausible. The ship visits an established station/colony/starbase/whatever in most of the episodes. Why not just state that they refuel there, and carry a large reserve for when they can't. Throwing random BS in to make it cool just ends up with a big pot of BS and a credulity that's been stretched halfway to Pluto.

Anyway, if you want to penetrate an enemy ship's shields, throw BBs at them. Launch massive numbers of small projectiles at them at high speed. Chances of any single one penetrating are small, but a constant rain of projectiles hitting the shields will eventually wear them down. Instead of the enemy putting energy into evading you or fighting back or running the cloaking device, they're constantly boosting their shields. And then you lob a torpedo at them once they've depleted themselves.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'd like to point out that once you start throwing out the laws of physics, you can do anything. The laws of physics are broken a thousand different ways in every single episode. One week's writer says "Well, now the ship can do this." Next week's writer says "Well, now the crew has that machine." One series says "X cannot happen, it is not allowed in this universe." Another series comes along and says "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if they do X?" Consistency got better as the franchise progressed, but it's never been a high point.

Which isn't the same as using their lapses as an excuse or that it somehow transforms it to less then bad writing.

And Trek still has a discernible level that is diverged from. Their worst offense is the scale of space, the ships travel at plot speed and fire at point blank range but that is something one can reasonably expect.

[grolim]

Voyager transported an armed photon torpedo into a Borg Sphere once...

No, they transported an armed torpedo on the the ship the borg sphere was pulling inside. They were able to get it onboard before the ship went through the sphere's shields.

[Ravens_cry]

I never quite figured out how they were supposed to do the refueling by scooping up hydrogen from space thing. Yes, that could handle the matter part, but their antimatter is coming from where? If they're going to make stuff up, at least make it slightly more plausible. The ship visits an established station/colony/starbase/whatever in most of the episodes. Why not just state that they refuel there, and carry a large reserve for when they can't. Throwing random BS in to make it cool just ends up with a big pot of BS and a credulity that's been stretched halfway to Pluto.

I assume that Trek has some kind of way of 'inverting' regular matter to convert it into antimatter, otherwise there is no way they could produce enough to feed the demand.


Anyway, if you want to penetrate an enemy ship's shields, throw BBs at them. Launch massive numbers of small projectiles at them at high speed. Chances of any single one penetrating are small, but a constant rain of projectiles hitting the shields will eventually wear them down. Instead of the enemy putting energy into evading you or fighting back or running the cloaking device, they're constantly boosting their shields. And then you lob a torpedo at them once they've depleted themselves.
There seems to be a point of 'no sell', in which a small enough effect doesn't register at all. Again, the navigation shields protect against such objects routinely. For another example, lasers are explicitly said to have no effect, for whatever reason.
@Soras Teva Gee:
Agreed. Diverging from this is one reason the ending for Mass Effect 3 is so very unsatisfying. Just because you throw out Einstein doesn't mean 'It's magic and rainbows everywhere!'.
You 'just' (more and more difficult with a long running franchise, especially when it has to produce material so rapidly, admittedly) apply the new laws with a certain degree of consistency.
Warp drive may mainly move at the speed of plot, but it's not instantaneous unless there is a reason.

[Solaris]

I always wondered why Borg adapting could ever be a problem when they seem incapable of adapting to kinetic energy - and thus shooting them with bullets works just fine.
"Borg boarders! Quick, transport shotguns to everyone on the ship!"

[Ravens_cry]

I always wondered why Borg adapting could ever be a problem when they seem incapable of adapting to kinetic energy - and thus shooting them with bullets works just fine.
"Borg boarders! Quick, transport shotguns to everyone on the ship!"
I don't think they are incapable so much as they don't face them often. One of the few canon examples was only a couple (?) drone; it was never a large scale thing.
The strategies for shielding from a beam of charged particles I imagine would be pretty different than dealing with a slug of metal travelling at supersonic speeds and considering how little they would face such 'obsolete' weapons, it would save energy and be more efficient to only use one kind at a time. If they end up facing such weapons, a couple dead drone is the most they'd lose before adapting.

[Mistral]

I never quite figured out how they were supposed to do the refueling by scooping up hydrogen from space thing. Yes, that could handle the matter part, but their antimatter is coming from where? If they're going to make stuff up, at least make it slightly more plausible. The ship visits an established station/colony/starbase/whatever in most of the episodes. Why not just state that they refuel there, and carry a large reserve for when they can't. Throwing random BS in to make it cool just ends up with a big pot of BS and a credulity that's been stretched halfway to Pluto.
The Bussard ramjets are supplements to the ship's fuel supply and are not intended as replacements, though there are various other issues to the concept in general (like how proton-proton fusion leads to far more power lost than is gained from the fuel collected/fused, or the drag forces created by the scoop). They also would seem to use more deuterium than anti-deuterium since Federation ships in Star Trek typically operate secondary fusion reactors as well as the primary antimatter reactor that we all know and love. On the Enterprise-D, for instance, the fusion reactors are located in the saucer section, which also lets them provide power to that section of the ship when detached. If I recall, it's in the aft section of the saucer, just forward of the impulse engines. Gods, I'm such a geek.


I always wondered why Borg adapting could ever be a problem when they seem incapable of adapting to kinetic energy - and thus shooting them with bullets works just fine.
"Borg boarders! Quick, transport shotguns to everyone on the ship!"
Do we ever see it used more than once? One drone gets bat'lethed by Worf, and one drone gets tommygunned by Picard. Other than that, there's not much to demonstrate that they need to adapt to it.

[Yora]

Q could do it, but, he's Q.
I am not even sure of that. Everything he does is either teleportation through space and time, or visual effects. Moving the Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant and back was the biggest thing he ever did and he might have made preparations to make it look that effortlessly for a very long time.

Oh, I think I start a thread about it. :smallbiggrin:

[Tavar]

The Q are pretty much omnipotent, though. And, in Deja Q, his suggestion for moving the moon is to change the gravitational constant of the universe.

[Ravens_cry]

I am not even sure of that. Everything he does is either teleportation through space and time, or visual effects. Moving the Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant and back was the biggest thing he ever did and he might have made preparations to make it look that effortlessly for a very long time.

Oh, I think I start a thread about it. :smallbiggrin:
Another Q sent Voyager back to the Big Bang, and Q followed almost instantly.
He. Is. Omnipotent, the Immovable Object and the Unstoppable Force.
If he doesn't do something, it's either because he decides not to or another Q prevents him.
Yes I understand the logical paradox of that statement.

[Karoht]

The Q are pretty much omnipotent, though. And, in Deja Q, his suggestion for moving the moon is to change the gravitational constant of the universe.When a being talks about changing a fundamental rule of the universe that we believe is more or less written in stone, as though he were talking about knocking out a wall to make a bedroom bigger, you know that underestimating him is probably a mistake.

[razark]

They also would seem to use more deuterium than anti-deuterium since Federation ships in Star Trek typically operate secondary fusion reactors as well as the primary antimatter reactor that we all know and love. ... If I recall, it's in the aft section of the saucer, just forward of the impulse engines.
If memory serves, I thought the fusion reactors were basically emergency power brought online when the primary reactor wasn't available, or in case of saucer separation. If the primary reactor isn't reacting, you just reroute the hydrogen to the fusion reactor. (For the record, most of what I remember is based on TOS/movies. The secondary reactors were at the aft end of the saucer.)


Gods, I'm such a geek.
We're arguing over Star Trek on the internet. That assumption has already been made.

[Ravens_cry]

When a being talks about changing a fundamental rule of the universe that we believe is more or less written in stone, as though he were talking about knocking out a wall to make a bedroom bigger, you know that underestimating him is probably a mistake.
Heck, I wouldn't even describe it as that much effort. More like, in my opinion, changing a slider on a video game options menu.

[Solaris]

I don't think they are incapable so much as they don't face them often. One of the few canon examples was only a couple (?) drone; it was never a large scale thing.
The strategies for shielding from a beam of charged particles I imagine would be pretty different than dealing with a slug of metal travelling at supersonic speeds and considering how little they would face such 'obsolete' weapons, it would save energy and be more efficient to only use one kind at a time. If they end up facing such weapons, a couple dead drone is the most they'd lose before adapting.


Do we ever see it used more than once? One drone gets bat'lethed by Worf, and one drone gets tommygunned by Picard. Other than that, there's not much to demonstrate that they need to adapt to it.

Huh, turns out phasers are particle weapons - though they call 'em directed energy, they're spitting particles. I guess Borg could adapt to getting shot.
Meh. That just makes their technomagic even worse.

[McStabbington]

Two problems with slug throwers. One, Borg drones are often specialized for certain tasks. I'm reasonably certain the reason we haven't seen the ones with body armor designed to stop archaic weapons is because the Borg haven't needed to send them over. Two, slugs tend to travel beyond what you're shooting at. Which in this case could puncture the tin can you're using to protect you from vacuum. Now this just highlights what I consider the ridiculous lack of sealed, ablative power armor in the Star Trek universe, but as is, slug throwers are more dangerous to the humans wielding them than the Borg they're fighting.

Out of universe, the problem is really that the writers don't have a good understanding of military tactics and techniques. Which impacts the story in two ways. First, their military geniuses often end up doing ridiculously stupid stuff or missing obvious opportunities. Boarding actions are to my mind the most obvious in this regard. Given the technology displayed, the first line of defense to any attack would be to simply seal off the boarded section with force fields and vent the compartment into space, which is never done. And they never once beam in a precision strike team that phasers the engineering crew, lobs a couple of photon grenades at the warp assembly, and beam out again in five seconds. And that's just the really, really basic stuff.

Second, they often create things that could have enormous military value, but they don't realize until after the episode is over just what they've handed to the crew. Voyager, as usual, was a usual offender. They once captured a Vidian device that triples as a tricorder-like scanner, a beam weapon, and a tool to activating a transporter. Since the Vidians have been hit with a disease that rots their organs forcing them to harvest organs from others by force, they use this doohickey to scan you and then beam out the organ they want. But do the Voyager crew ever bother to use it to say, create integrated phasers/tricorders? Or create a phaser that allows them to beam the Borg drone currently stuck to your console to the brig? Or a surgical implement that allows them to use the transporters for surgery? Nope, nein and nyet.

[Solaris]

Two problems with slug throwers. One, Borg drones are often specialized for certain tasks. I'm reasonably certain the reason we haven't seen the ones with body armor designed to stop archaic weapons is because the Borg haven't needed to send them over. Two, slugs tend to travel beyond what you're shooting at. Which in this case could puncture the tin can you're using to protect you from vacuum. Now this just highlights what I consider the ridiculous lack of sealed, ablative power armor in the Star Trek universe, but as is, slug throwers are more dangerous to the humans wielding them than the Borg they're fighting.

They have force-fields. I'm just not seeing a pinpoint hull breach as being all that big a deal. Heck, even without fields you could just casually walk out of the room, seal the hatch, and deal with it after the battle's over. Odds are it still has a whole lot of atmosphere left in it.

[Gnoman]

Out of universe, the problem is really that the writers don't have a good understanding of military tactics and techniques. Which impacts the story in two ways. First, their military geniuses often end up doing ridiculously stupid stuff or missing obvious opportunities. Boarding actions are to my mind the most obvious in this regard. Given the technology displayed, the first line of defense to any attack would be to simply seal off the boarded section with force fields and vent the compartment into space, which is never done. And they never once beam in a precision strike team that phasers the engineering crew, lobs a couple of photon grenades at the warp assembly, and beam out again in five seconds. And that's just the really, really basic stuff.


Let's make clear something that you seem to be overlooking. YOU CAN NOT USE TRANSPORTERS THROUGH SHIELDS. (There are a few exceptions, but the rule holds true in almost all cases.) By the time boarding parties can be useful, you have the enemy ship at your mercy anyway, as unshielded ships are destroyed with only a few hits anyway. Boarding teams are almost always a terrible tactical choice in the ST universe.

[McStabbington]

Let's make clear something that you seem to be overlooking. YOU CAN NOT USE TRANSPORTERS THROUGH SHIELDS. (There are a few exceptions, but the rule holds true in almost all cases.) By the time boarding parties can be useful, you have the enemy ship at your mercy anyway, as unshielded ships are destroyed with only a few hits anyway. Boarding teams are almost always a terrible tactical choice in the ST universe.

Beyond the fact that you're underestimating how tough ships can be, at least when the plot demands it, there are plenty of innovative ways around that. Most of the technical manuals describe the shields as being an overlapping series of shields that individually protect parts of the ship and reinforce one another collectively. So, you could knock down one shield, drop the ventral shields, beam over while your ship barrel rolls to rotate the downed shield away, pull them out when the ship comes back around, and snap your shields back on. It's not done on Star Trek not so much because it isn't a viable tactic as it requires knowledge of how dogfights work in three dimensions, which writers have never been good at.

I realize when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail, but sometimes it's much more efficient to knock out a ship's command staff and wreck their bridge rather than bludgeon said ship into submission. Not to mention quicker and with lower risk of catastrophe.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Beyond the fact that you're underestimating how tough ships can be, at least when the plot demands it, there are plenty of innovative ways around that. Most of the technical manuals describe the shields as being an overlapping series of shields that individually protect parts of the ship and reinforce one another collectively. So, you could knock down one shield, drop the ventral shields, beam over while your ship barrel rolls to rotate the downed shield away, pull them out when the ship comes back around, and snap your shields back on. It's not done on Star Trek not so much because it isn't a viable tactic as it requires knowledge of how dogfights work in three dimensions, which writers have never been good at.


Nope.

If you can knock down any part of the shield then you can immediately target the ship itself and disable/destroy it through the gap far more effectively then a boarding team would at vastly reduced risk to personnel and equipment. The couple of seconds you'd need to carry out a beaming is well within established firing speeds.

Trek ships are pretty consistently fragile when their shields are down. Heck technically I recall their shields are never down just the big fighting deflector ones, the entire ship relies on energy fields to keep it together. That's besides the point though.

[Traab]

There have also been several times when the enterprise or an enemy ship has been boarded and sabotaged. The various star trek crews used to beam aboard borg ships to do something once every other fight with them. The first time the borg showed up, they beamed through the shields, downloaded all the info they could from the computers, and back slapped worf to the floor like the little girl he is. Then they left. Only reason they didnt blow up the enterprise was because A) They were gathering intel. and B) They prefer to assimilate, not destroy.

[DiscipleofBob]

Don't forget the potential uses holodeck/replicator/transporter technology has outside of a direct fight. You could slip in sleeper agent(s) among an enemy ship with some mobile emitters and the transporter unnoticed. Just tell the computer your parameters (subject knows all the customs of said race and believes themselves to be a loyal soldier, under X condition, subject will do X to the ship/crew without question overwriting all previous personality traits, etcetera) and aside from the enemy ship maybe knowing that something was beamed aboard, the sleeper holograms blend in perfectly until the appropriate time.

[The Glyphstone]

Don't forget the potential uses holodeck/replicator/transporter technology has outside of a direct fight. You could slip in sleeper agent(s) among an enemy ship with some mobile emitters and the transporter unnoticed. Just tell the computer your parameters (subject knows all the customs of said race and believes themselves to be a loyal soldier, under X condition, subject will do X to the ship/crew without question overwriting all previous personality traits, etcetera) and aside from the enemy ship maybe knowing that something was beamed aboard, the sleeper holograms blend in perfectly until the appropriate time.

Aaaaaand how are you getting that sleeper agent onto the ship through their shields? Or keeping them from noticing the dude who was never part of their crew until 5 minutes ago? If you're going to add hyper-competent tactics to one side, I think a bit of assuming the other side is smart enough to walk and chew gum simultaneously isn't out of order.

[DiscipleofBob]

Aaaaaand how are you getting that sleeper agent onto the ship through their shields? Or keeping them from noticing the dude who was never part of their crew until 5 minutes ago? If you're going to add hyper-competent tactics to one side, I think a bit of assuming the other side is smart enough to walk and chew gum simultaneously isn't out of order.

It doesn't need to. Not every ship interaction has to be with shields up and weapons primed. Most of the Enterprise's missions and tactics are diplomatic first and military second. You could even start negotiations and beam them over with some supplies.

And most ships are large enough with large enough crews that another crew member won't get noticed. Did Kirk notice when suddenly there were extra members on his crew that definitely weren't supposed to be there since they were from the future? Nope. And the hologram can be programmed with completely realistic behavior as long as the programmer knows enough about the culture of the target ship.

It's not that easy of a deception. I expect that someone trying that tactic on the Enterprise or Voyager could get away with quite a bit before they were found out.

[Yora]

There have also been several times when the enterprise or an enemy ship has been boarded and sabotaged. The various star trek crews used to beam aboard borg ships to do something once every other fight with them.
If you can beam people on a borg ship without being stopped, you also can beam a hydrogen bomb. Whic really shouldn't be difficult to replicate for the enterprise in a few hours. Even if a cube can be functional and regenerate with 80% of the systems destroyed, a hydrogen bomb anywhere near the core wouldn't leave 20% intact.

Out of universe, the problem is really that the writers don't have a good understanding of military tactics and techniques.
Oh, yes... :smallsigh:

All of the fight scenes are painful to watch.

[The Glyphstone]

It doesn't need to. Not every ship interaction has to be with shields up and weapons primed. Most of the Enterprise's missions and tactics are diplomatic first and military second. You could even start negotiations and beam them over with some supplies.
Any potentially unfriendly interaction is going to have shields up, if their pilots were smart enough to get the ship out of orbit without running into the planet. Shields would be down only if you're dealing with allies/friendlies, or expecting an accepted beaming, if only to avoid the chance of a freak accident with random space debris. Against a stranger who might be hostile, or a Human/Ferengi/Klingon/Romulan/Bajoran ship with 99% odds of being hostile or at least unpleasant, shields will definitely be up.



And most ships are large enough with large enough crews that another crew member won't get noticed. Did Kirk notice when suddenly there were extra members on his crew that definitely weren't supposed to be there since they were from the future? Nope. And the hologram can be programmed with completely realistic behavior as long as the programmer knows enough about the culture of the target ship.

It's not that easy of a deception. I expect that someone trying that tactic on the Enterprise or Voyager could get away with quite a bit before they were found out.

Yeah, if the only people with brains onboard were the bridge crew. Like I said, walking and chewing gum - while the command staff might not know every person on the ship by face and name, the guys in Engineering will certainly be smart enough to see that Bob Totallynotahologram wasn't on yesterday's duty roster for the Engineering department. Repeat for Security, or Medical, or whatever...and if they claim to be 'from another department", 1) they're probably not authorized to be doing whatever they're doing in this department, and 2) would be totally exposed by a simple comm call.


For the amount of work you're doing to get an artificial spy/saboteur into one enemy ship, it'd be far easier and probably cheaper to just have an actual, physical double agent/infiltrator. All the advantages, none of the risk of having a random power surge erase him from existence.

[DiscipleofBob]

Any potentially unfriendly interaction is going to have shields up, if their pilots were smart enough to get the ship out of orbit without running into the planet. Shields would be down only if you're dealing with allies/friendlies, or expecting an accepted beaming, if only to avoid the chance of a freak accident with random space debris. Against a stranger who might be hostile, or a Human/Ferengi/Klingon/Romulan/Bajoran ship with 99% odds of being hostile or at least unpleasant, shields will definitely be up.

In some cases yes, but not always. Routinely when diplomacy fails only then does the Enterprise/Voyager put shields up, unless they're dealing with someone particularly backstabby.



Yeah, if the only people with brains onboard were the bridge crew. Like I said, walking and chewing gum - while the command staff might not know every person on the ship by face and name, the guys in Engineering will certainly be smart enough to see that Bob Totallynotahologram wasn't on yesterday's duty roster for the Engineering department. Repeat for Security, or Medical, or whatever...and if they claim to be 'from another department", 1) they're probably not authorized to be doing whatever they're doing in this department, and 2) would be totally exposed by a simple comm call.

Depends completely on the size of the ship in question. If each department is only a half dozen people then sure, a new face is going to stick out like a sore thumb, but most of the Star Trek ships I've seen have large enough crews that a new face is just going to be met with "Just got transferred here, huh? All right let me show you around. There's the sensitive equipment you'll be working with." It won't work all the time no, but the default of every ship crew is not going to automatically be suspicious of the new guy, especially if they, and this is important, act the part perfectly. It's not a matter of the crew of either ship being gullible or incompetent, it's the fact that there would often be no reason to suspect the agent at the time.


For the amount of work you're doing to get an artificial spy/saboteur into one enemy ship, it'd be far easier and probably cheaper to just have an actual, physical double agent/infiltrator. All the advantages, none of the risk of having a random power surge erase him from existence.

One key advantage that the hologram would have is that they are perfectly sculpted both physically and mentally to be a sleeper agent. They don't know they're going to sabotage the enemy ship. For all they know, they're a loyal new crew member eager to prove themselves. And then once the deed is done the program itself can self-terminate so no actual agent would be risked.

[The Glyphstone]

In some cases yes, but not always. Routinely when diplomacy fails only then does the Enterprise/Voyager put shields up, unless they're dealing with someone particularly backstabby.

I think that's because they're either overly trusting, or actively attempting to look non-hostile. In most of those diplomatic situations and First Contact meetings, those other ships do have their shields up, because they don't know if the hyoo-mons are plannning on backstabbing them...exactly like they happen to be in this scenario. And if the other side is a known aggressor, they will absolutely be expecting the humans to be treacherous.




One key advantage that the hologram would have is that they are perfectly sculpted both physically and mentally to be a sleeper agent. They don't know they're going to sabotage the enemy ship. For all they know, they're a loyal new crew member eager to prove themselves. And then once the deed is done the program itself can self-terminate so no actual agent would be risked.

But they're still a hologram. I'd be flabbergasted if this wasn't easily detectable by shipboard sensors, let alone an actual trip to the medical bay. Which they would have no reason to avoid or refuse, if they thought they were a real crew member.

Besides, wasn't the mobile emitter a one-of-a-kind future tech device anyways? They'd only get one shot, ever, at this sort of infiltration.

[Chen]

One key advantage that the hologram would have is that they are perfectly sculpted both physically and mentally to be a sleeper agent. They don't know they're going to sabotage the enemy ship. For all they know, they're a loyal new crew member eager to prove themselves. And then once the deed is done the program itself can self-terminate so no actual agent would be risked.

How is the hologram actually being projected on the enemy ship? Voyager had a 29th century future mobile emitter that they couldn't replicate. That's the only way the doctor could move around outside places with emitters.

[Soras Teva Gee]

If you can beam people on a borg ship without being stopped, you also can beam a hydrogen bomb. Whic really shouldn't be difficult to replicate for the enterprise in a few hours. Even if a cube can be functional and regenerate with 80% of the systems destroyed, a hydrogen bomb anywhere near the core wouldn't leave 20% intact.

Here's the thing the Borg always knew, they just didn't care. Originally they didn't show any interest in humans, they just started cutting apart the Enterprise for parts. Biologicals were irrelevant. Was quite creepy and alien, but eventually fell by the wayside in Voyager.

Beaming over a weapon that could seriously damage a cube is a manifest threat so we have to presume they would react accordingly.

[Kd7sov]

Besides, wasn't the mobile emitter a one-of-a-kind future tech device anyways? They'd only get one shot, ever, at this sort of infiltration.

Depends, I think, on when this is happening. If it's long enough after the end of Voyager that they've had a chance to analyze and reverse-engineer the Doctor's ME, they could feasibly be available.

[razark]

...a new face is just going to be met with "Just got transferred here, huh? All right let me show you around. There's the sensitive equipment you'll be working with."
"So, you're new here? Let's get your paperwork squared away. Let's see your transfer order from your previous ship/station/academy. Oh, you don't have it. Well, that's irregular. Give me a moment, and let me make a phone call."

"Well, that's odd. They've never heard of you. And you don't exist in the computer system. Or any computer system. If you don't mind, these nice, friendly, totally not trigger happy men from security would like to escort you to your new crew quarters, which is provided with a lovely view of the inside of the ship's brig."

Mission foiled.

[DiscipleofBob]

"So, you're new here? Let's get your paperwork squared away. Let's see your transfer order from your previous ship/station/academy. Oh, you don't have it. Well, that's irregular. Give me a moment, and let me make a phone call."

"Well, that's odd. They've never heard of you. And you don't exist in the computer system. Or any computer system. If you don't mind, these nice, friendly, totally not trigger happy men from security would like to escort you to your new crew quarters, which is provided with a lovely view of the inside of the ship's brig."

Mission foiled.

Because every race in Star Trek is well-known for their accurate records and seamless flowing bureacracy.

Hell, people pulled this stuff off all the time on both sides on multiple series.

Just as quick example, DS9 traveled back to the original series Enterprise, got into a barfight with old-generation Klingons, stood at attention and got to speak with Kirk himself and were still never found out. And these were just guys with makeup who didn't know how half of the old technology worked (getting com-badges mixed up with old-style communicators, not realizing that back then you actually needed to hold the bar in the elevator to get it to move, etc.) Sisko even gives Kirk his real name and says he's on temporary assignment to the Enterprise.

[razark]

Because every race in Star Trek is well-known for their accurate records and seamless flowing bureacracy.
One doesn't get around to building a spacefaring civilization by being disorganized. Most of the ships seen in the shows are military vessels, and militaries tend to have a need for organization and security. Merchant vessels would have a reason to minimize the crew to the point that everyone onboard knows everyone else. You might be able to successfully infiltrate a space cruise ship without being noticed. Even then, you'd be disguised as a passenger, and I'm pretty sure you're not going to find a cruise line that has a policy of allowing passengers to hang out anywhere they feel like. Any other vessel, you'd need to hide, not walk around openly pretending you belong there.


Hell, people pulled this stuff off all the time on both sides on multiple series.
Amazing how the characters were able to pull off whatever the script writers needed them to be able to pull off to tell that week's story.

[The Glyphstone]

Because every race in Star Trek is well-known for their accurate records and seamless flowing bureacracy.

Hell, people pulled this stuff off all the time on both sides on multiple series.


Yeah, but who would it actually work on? Ferengi or Romulans are racially paranoid to the extreme, they'd be sure to check, double-check, and triple-mega-check credentials. Klingons probably have ritual combat ceremonies or something, and a 'new crewman' who can't bleed will be noticed. The Dominion actually did have those accurate records and military chain of command. We don't even need to mention the Borg.

Really, this strategy seems like it'd only work flawlessly against the various crews of the Enterprise/humanity in general, because of their awful security procedures.

[DiscipleofBob]

Yeah, but who would it actually work on? Ferengi or Romulans are racially paranoid to the extreme, they'd be sure to check, double-check, and triple-mega-check credentials. Klingons probably have ritual combat ceremonies or something, and a 'new crewman' who can't bleed will be noticed. The Dominion actually did have those accurate records and military chain of command. We don't even need to mention the Borg.

Really, this strategy seems like it'd only work flawlessly against the various crews of the Enterprise/humanity in general, because of their awful security procedures.

If the Klingons have ritual combat ceremonies or something, they're not going to be brought out every time Jonny B. Klingon shows up for work, whether or not they're regularly recognized. And the hologram would for all intents and purposes bleed if programmed to. If holographic water can leave you were after leaving the holodeck then blood will be just fine as long as it's not scanned too closely. Heck, in the Klingon's case, it might not even need to bleed. It could just be programmed in the most advanced of Klingon fighting styles to the point where it could mop the floor with anyone who challenged it. The Ferengi are paranoid, yes, but they're not always very bright.

If someone scans for the hologram, then said plot wouldn't work, but there would first have to be a reason to suspect such a ploy and actually do said scans, and, once again, the hologram would believe itself to be real and loyal until the appropriate time.

Is this a foolproof plan? No. But it's at least a plausible scenario that can really screw over an enemy if done right.

Heck, another scenario if setup right might be to capture one of said opposing crew, scan their brain and replicate it onto a hologram. Said hologram believes it to be the real whoever but subliminal commands in the program forces it to make mistakes or similar actions that end up benefitting the Enterprise.

[Traab]

If you can beam people on a borg ship without being stopped, you also can beam a hydrogen bomb. Whic really shouldn't be difficult to replicate for the enterprise in a few hours. Even if a cube can be functional and regenerate with 80% of the systems destroyed, a hydrogen bomb anywhere near the core wouldn't leave 20% intact.

Oh, yes... :smallsigh:

All of the fight scenes are painful to watch.

They have done that too. I know I have seen a photon torpedo beamed directly into the cube to disable/destroy it. It was basically something like, "The shields and armor are too much for us to destroy from the outside, attack this shield emitter then quickly beam a torpedo inside the structure before it can regenerate. Boom" Or they snuck aboard the cube and disabled it from inside somehow. I know that happened a few times as well.

[McNum]

Honestly, I think the Holodeck has a much more sneaky use than espionage: Interrogation, sort of.

You capture an enemy, and take him to the brig. Now, this enemy knows something, like the position of an enemy ship, or some secret code you want, but you're the Federation, so you don't want to harm him getting it. What to do...

Well, the next time he sleeps, you have the Holodeck create a perfect replica of the Enterprise (or the ship you're currently on) complete with AI crew and all. Then you beam the prisoner to the brig in the holographic Enterprise and simulate some kind of emergency, that conveniently shuts down the forcefield to the prisoner's cell. And knocks out the guard. And now the daring escape can begin. Our prisoner narrowly manages to escape, possibly "killing" several crewmembers along the way, and gently, he's redirected to communications where it's expected he'll attempt to broadcast the Enterprise's location to his superiors. He uses the secret codes and sends out an encrypted message, except... not. And now the Federation has part of the encryption key. Have something stun him and beam him back to the brig. Let him think it was all just a dream. If he didn't act as planned, try it again a few days later, maybe with a new scenario. Like, say, an attack by the ship you're looking for.

It's a bit dirty and underhanded, but if there's one thing any Holodeck should be able to, it's a complete replica of the ship it's installed in. Might as well weaponize that.

[TSGames]

Because every race in Star Trek is well-known for their accurate records and seamless flowing bureacracy.

Hell, people pulled this stuff off all the time on both sides on multiple series.

Just as quick example, DS9 traveled back to the original series Enterprise, got into a barfight with old-generation Klingons, stood at attention and got to speak with Kirk himself and were still never found out. And these were just guys with makeup who didn't know how half of the old technology worked (getting com-badges mixed up with old-style communicators, not realizing that back then you actually needed to hold the bar in the elevator to get it to move, etc.) Sisko even gives Kirk his real name and says he's on temporary assignment to the Enterprise.
Strange how often DS9 comes up in anti-consistency arguments for Trek... A Star Trek show centered around a starbase, where's the inconsistency in that? *sigh* at least it's not Star Trek: Enterprise.

Still....the whole problem with weaponizing holograms is energy. Something has to generate the hologram; if it has the ability to interact with the physical world, something has to give it that ability(99.99999% of the time a forcefield). In a universe where every race that has a space ship uses energy weapons and transporters, it would be kinda strange for security teams and engineers not to be constantly looking for strange energy signatures; at best, it would be massive incompetency.


McNUM...that's a good idea, but definitely not Federation style. I think they generally tend to frown upon mind ****ing people, even to get military secrets. (Though I'm sure there's probably half a dozen exceptions to this throughout the show, five of them will be from DS9)

[Weezer]

Honestly, I think the Holodeck has a much more sneaky use than espionage: Interrogation, sort of.

You capture an enemy, and take him to the brig. Now, this enemy knows something, like the position of an enemy ship, or some secret code you want, but you're the Federation, so you don't want to harm him getting it. What to do...

Well, the next time he sleeps, you have the Holodeck create a perfect replica of the Enterprise (or the ship you're currently on) complete with AI crew and all. Then you beam the prisoner to the brig in the holographic Enterprise and simulate some kind of emergency, that conveniently shuts down the forcefield to the prisoner's cell. And knocks out the guard. And now the daring escape can begin. Our prisoner narrowly manages to escape, possibly "killing" several crewmembers along the way, and gently, he's redirected to communications where it's expected he'll attempt to broadcast the Enterprise's location to his superiors. He uses the secret codes and sends out an encrypted message, except... not. And now the Federation has part of the encryption key. Have something stun him and beam him back to the brig. Let him think it was all just a dream. If he didn't act as planned, try it again a few days later, maybe with a new scenario. Like, say, an attack by the ship you're looking for.

It's a bit dirty and underhanded, but if there's one thing any Holodeck should be able to, it's a complete replica of the ship it's installed in. Might as well weaponize that.

I'm almost certain that has been done in the show, to Picard maybe? I don't think the Federation would ever use that though, more of an antagonist weapon.

[McNum]

I'm almost certain that has been done in the show, to Picard maybe? I don't think the Federation would ever use that though, more of an antagonist weapon.
Yeah, it's more of a Romulan trick, I suppose, and it may already have happened. It was just the most obvious (weaponized) use I could think of with the Holodeck. I suppose you could have combat exercises in it, too.

One thing I might add that could be weaponized, even if it's mostly a desperation tactic, is the warp core itself. We know it makes a mighty explosion when ruptured, and we know it can be ejected from the ship rapidly to get it out of explosion range. Now launching your main power plant at the enemy is usually a bad plan, because you're s sitting duck until you get a replacement fitted, and I'm not sure if this hurts much more than a Photon Torpedo. It probably does, it's still a matter/anti-matter reactor powering a ship that can go superluminal. There has to be a lot of energy stored in one of these things, even if it's just te anti-matter currently in the core that annihilates. At the very least, it's a somewhat disrespectful final gesture at the enemy. I mean, if you're going down, take them with you.

[Tavar]

I think it was Riker, but it was in fact a double ploy: instead of Romulans tricking him, the Alien of the Week was trying to keep him present for the company.


The Warp Core can make an okay weapon, but it's not that much better than a torpedo. After all, a torpedo is an antimater/matter reaction(at least, the non-quantum ones are). More importantly, Warp Cores aren't guided, and don't move that fast.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Because every race in Star Trek is well-known for their accurate records and seamless flowing bureacracy.

Hell, people pulled this stuff off all the time on both sides on multiple series.

Just as quick example, DS9 traveled back to the original series Enterprise, got into a barfight with old-generation Klingons, stood at attention and got to speak with Kirk himself and were still never found out. And these were just guys with makeup who didn't know how half of the old technology worked (getting com-badges mixed up with old-style communicators, not realizing that back then you actually needed to hold the bar in the elevator to get it to move, etc.) Sisko even gives Kirk his real name and says he's on temporary assignment to the Enterprise.

They also didn't have to do any long term espionage. They pulled a caper not a deep cover assignment. They were only able to get on board at all because of a trick with the old Enterprise sensors that would let them beam on-board unobserved. They don't interact with anyone deliberately, heck IIRC they don't even use legit controls but have to break into the ship systems. In otherwords at no point do they have to stand more then casual scrutiny on a ship stuffed with people. The whole episode would have been fragged with any Federation ship aside from the Defiant from the get go.

Also Bashir and O'Brien almost got caught anyways.

That they managed to pull it off does not change that a hologram would be fundamentally less able to stand up to scrutiny then a human. They are a forcefield and a light show in the end they cannot be disguised against a scanners inquiry because they are fundamentally not a life form. Something as basic as a transporter becomes an absolute bar that must be avoided or carefully compromised.

And this somewhere along the way this seems to have just plain old started ignoring how holograms can't leave a holodeck anyways, because they are illusions linked to computer programs.

(Which incidentally makes their value as human replacements anywhere dubious. Either they lack sufficient intelligence/creativity/sentience so would end up limited OR they are no longer disposable and must agree to whatever risks are put on them)

[comicshorse]

Honestly, I think the Holodeck has a much more sneaky use than espionage: Interrogation, sort of.

You capture an enemy, and take him to the brig. Now, this enemy knows something, like the position of an enemy ship, or some secret code you want, but you're the Federation, so you don't want to harm him getting it. What to do...

Well, the next time he sleeps, you have the Holodeck create a perfect replica of the Enterprise (or the ship you're currently on) complete with AI crew and all. Then you beam the prisoner to the brig in the holographic Enterprise and simulate some kind of emergency, that conveniently shuts down the forcefield to the prisoner's cell. And knocks out the guard. And now the daring escape can begin. Our prisoner narrowly manages to escape, possibly "killing" several crewmembers along the way, and gently, he's redirected to communications where it's expected he'll attempt to broadcast the Enterprise's location to his superiors. He uses the secret codes and sends out an encrypted message, except... not. And now the Federation has part of the encryption key. Have something stun him and beam him back to the brig. Let him think it was all just a dream. If he didn't act as planned, try it again a few days later, maybe with a new scenario. Like, say, an attack by the ship you're looking for.

It's a bit dirty and underhanded, but if there's one thing any Holodeck should be able to, it's a complete replica of the ship it's installed in. Might as well weaponize that.

Section 31 do very something similair to Bashir in a DS9 episode

[irenicObserver]

They can use a combination of nanobots and micro-replicators to create self-repairing, adaptable, sentient drones. I would love to see them outfit Data with some of that and see what he could do.

[Ravens_cry]

Huh, turns out phasers are particle weapons - though they call 'em directed energy, they're spitting particles. I guess Borg could adapt to getting shot.
Meh. That just makes their technomagic even worse.
If that's your guff, particle beam weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_beam_weapon)are still considered direct energy weapons. You need a macroscopic projectile for it to be considered a projectile weapon.

[DiscipleofBob]

They also didn't have to do any long term espionage. They pulled a caper not a deep cover assignment. They were only able to get on board at all because of a trick with the old Enterprise sensors that would let them beam on-board unobserved. They don't interact with anyone deliberately, heck IIRC they don't even use legit controls but have to break into the ship systems. In otherwords at no point do they have to stand more then casual scrutiny on a ship stuffed with people. The whole episode would have been fragged with any Federation ship aside from the Defiant from the get go.

Also Bashir and O'Brien almost got caught anyways.

That they managed to pull it off does not change that a hologram would be fundamentally less able to stand up to scrutiny then a human. They are a forcefield and a light show in the end they cannot be disguised against a scanners inquiry because they are fundamentally not a life form. Something as basic as a transporter becomes an absolute bar that must be avoided or carefully compromised.

And this somewhere along the way this seems to have just plain old started ignoring how holograms can't leave a holodeck anyways, because they are illusions linked to computer programs.

(Which incidentally makes their value as human replacements anywhere dubious. Either they lack sufficient intelligence/creativity/sentience so would end up limited OR they are no longer disposable and must agree to whatever risks are put on them)

Most of those are established risks with the holo-agent strategy. It's not a foolproof strategy, no, but a couple things.


Yes, Bashir and O'Brien ALMOST got caught, but they didn't. I never suggested that the holo-agent needed to be a long-term espionage. And they were operating under the disadvantage of knowing very little about the time period. A programmed sleeper agent would have all the knowledge and mannerisms needed to fit perfectly in as long as the original programmer was skilled.
Sentience, creativity, intelligence can all be programmed in. See the Voyager doctor, see Moriarty, see any robot that achieves sentience like Data. AI being as sentient, intelligent, and creative as a human is all but a regularity in Star Trek.
Mobile Emitter. It might have seen limited use in the series, but the precedent at least is there. Holograms can exist outside the holodeck. Not to mention the possibility of an external projection.

[Abies]

Not much to add, but what I thought was odd in First contact was that we were shown that Data can take multiple rounds of automatic weapon fire from extremely close range (ostensibly from a gun more advanced than a Tommygun), but Borg drones are mowed down like wheat before the scythe.
We had been shown before that Data was not immune to piercing damage. In the one episode where he loses his memory, the townsfolk are able to ram a spear (or something) right through him and disable him. I'm pretty sure a future gun packs more of a punch than a dude with a shovel.

As for the greatest weapons never used from Star Trek, There is only one that needs mentioning. DS9: "The Sound of her Voice". The crew discovers a planet that has the odd property of having an atmosphere that sends outgoing broadcasts forward in time and incoming broadcasts backward... 3 years either way. If you discover this planet and fail to make it the most heavily fortified and important planet in your civilization, then you're just doing it wrong.
War breaks out, send word to Planet Backintime and they'll be kind enough to send a full, physical briefing up the space elevator they constructed with full accounts of what went wrong and advice on how to avert the untoward outcome. Terrorist attack? Foiled.
This sort of outpost would result in the possessing side very quickly reaching a technological and tactical advantage that would be literally impossible to overcome. Yeah, sure Temporal Prime Directive and all that jazz, but when you have an I Win button, you press it.

[TARDIS]

The Romulans suicide-bombed Cordian at the start of the Romulan War by ramming their ships at warp speed into the planet...

Why has nobody else tried this? Not even with ships... with drones or missiles or something? Even the one missile capable of warp travel was mostly a payload delivery, not a relativistic impact weapon. C'mon! Warp 9 torpedoes! Imagine the damage!

Just my musing here, though...

[DiscipleofBob]

So regarding my initial question regarding the weaponized holodeck, I asked around with some local Trekkies and apparently the following happened:

When the holodeck technology was first invented, the Romulans had already had the technology weaponized and had banned it from use (well, as much as Romulans ban anything anyway. We all know how much that actually stops them.) They immediately demanded a treaty that the holodeck would never be weaponized. Well when the holodeck was first created by the Federation, its usage was seen as basically a Playstation so they said, "Sure why not? It's not like we actually had that in mind anyway. And while we're at it, here's some stuff we'd prefer you not do as part of said treaty."

Apparently there was an episode of Voyager where the Romulans threw a hissy fit because of the Mobile Emitter but eventually let it slide since it really was just to let the doctor treat wounded patients around the ship.

So it was thought of, but weaponized holodeck is now a banned technology like Romulan cloaking devices.

Mind you, my only source for this currently is hearsay from self-proclaimed Trekkies, so take from that what you will.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yes, Bashir and O'Brien ALMOST got caught, but they didn't. I never suggested that the holo-agent needed to be a long-term espionage. And they were operating under the disadvantage of knowing very little about the time period. A programmed sleeper agent would have all the knowledge and mannerisms needed to fit perfectly in as long as the original programmer was skilled.

You say no long-term espionage... and then sleeper agent. So you evidently do not understand one or the other because a sleeper agent is a form of long term espionage. Just saying.

Also you are vastly underestimating the problems faced by any other situation. The DS9 folks only got on board because they had the dual advantage of a cloaked vessel and technical information on the Enterprise's antiquated systems that allowed a gap in their sensors they could beam through.

A holo-agent in a modern Trek setting would not have those advantages which means it has to get in on cover story from another location. Which would fall apart at the latest in the transporter room when they try to beam a disassemble a human and not a force field.


Sentience, creativity, intelligence can all be programmed in. See the Voyager doctor, see Moriarty, see any robot that achieves sentience like Data. AI being as sentient, intelligent, and creative as a human is all but a regularity in Star Trek.

And the ethics of this?

There is already legal precedent for artificial lifeform having full legal rights (Data) though I cant speak to it being maintained but its there. And there's even more precedent for said sentient artificial life not being comfortable being comfortable with being used disposably.


Mobile Emitter. It might have seen limited use in the series, but the precedent at least is there. Holograms can exist outside the holodeck. Not to mention the possibility of an external projection.

Its 29th century tech that could not be replicated. That's five centuries of advancement. And it still doesn't solve that a hologram will not stand scrutiny under sensors.

In other words a pure plot device when Voyager's writers realized the Doctor was their best character so they needed him in more scenes or on away missions.

[Ravens_cry]

And that he certainly was.:smallbiggrin:

[DiscipleofBob]

You say no long-term espionage... and then sleeper agent. So you evidently do not understand one or the other because a sleeper agent is a form of long term espionage. Just saying.

Very well, what would you call an installed double agent who authentically believes they're not a double agent until the exact trigger that causes them to perform specific programmed actions.


Also you are vastly underestimating the problems faced by any other situation. The DS9 folks only got on board because they had the dual advantage of a cloaked vessel and technical information on the Enterprise's antiquated systems that allowed a gap in their sensors they could beam through.

A holo-agent in a modern Trek setting would not have those advantages which means it has to get in on cover story from another location. Which would fall apart at the latest in the transporter room when they try to beam a disassemble a human and not a force field.

That is one possible scenario, but not the only one. The device could also be beamed aboard during a diplomatic trade of supplies or something like a prisoner exchange, or even just a "routine scan" of the other ship, with the beaming aboard of a tiny object handwaved by the captain as a "minor fluctuation/computer error that they're looking into right now." A scan of the ship will reveal something's off, possibly that there's one less person in a room than appears, but until they start scanning individuals a holo-agent could go undetected, and by all means get the damage done by that point.


And the ethics of this?

There is already legal precedent for artificial lifeform having full legal rights (Data) though I cant speak to it being maintained but its there. And there's even more precedent for said sentient artificial life not being comfortable being comfortable with being used disposably.

I didn't suggest that this tactic was ethical, just possible. And the amount of actual sentience can vary depending on what's programmed. It's no more inethical than all the different AI's programmed to be characters on the holodeck (well, okay, except for the sabotaging another ship part).


Its 29th century tech that could not be replicated. That's five centuries of advancement. And it still doesn't solve that a hologram will not stand scrutiny under sensors.

In other words a pure plot device when Voyager's writers realized the Doctor was their best character so they needed him in more scenes or on away missions.

No, you're right, a hologram won't stand scrutiny under sensors. That's the biggest potential risk with this tactic. However, if the programming is convincing enough, the enemy would not have a reason to scan said target anymore than they'd have a reason to scan every grunt that walks through engineering.

And if the tech exists in Star Trek, then it can be replicated if not right away, then eventually. It's an entire ship full of nerds of various fields who routinely make new discoveries regarding everything, including concepts that by their own understanding of physics etcetera should not work ever.

[Ravens_cry]

Once it becomes common enough tactic, sensors will be used constantly. Even just a passive alarm, like the phaser alarm in The Undiscovered Country, would suffice.
For another example from Trek lore, lasers could conceivably damage an unshielded ship. Which is (part of the reason) why everyone uses shields, as shields always block lasers.
Which is why no one uses lasers.

[The Glyphstone]

Once it becomes common enough tactic, sensors will be used constantly. Even just a passive alarm, like the phaser alarm in The Undiscovered Country, would suffice.

Lasers could conceivably damage an unshielded ship. Which is (part of the reason) why everyone uses shields, as shields always block lasers.
Which is why no one uses lasers.

According to Memory Alpha, at least, it's kinda the inverse:

Laser weaponry was eventually abandoned by Starfleet because while it did penetrate deflector shielding easily, lasers had very little impact force to do actual damage to a hull compared to particle weapons.

They were good at bypassing shields, but not very good at actually inflicting damage. The episode with the lasers being fired at the Enterprise were apparently out-dated, weaker lasers or something.

[razark]

Very well, what would you call an installed double agent who authentically believes they're not a double agent until the exact trigger that causes them to perform specific programmed actions.
That would be a sleeper agent. Which is a form of long-term espionage.


That is one possible scenario, but not the only one. The device could also be beamed aboard during a diplomatic trade of supplies ... A scan of the ship will reveal something's off, possibly that there's one less person in a room than appears, but until they start scanning individuals a holo-agent could go undetected, and by all means get the damage done by that point.
Why bother to beam aboard something that looks like a person? Have the device beamed aboard, and activate at the proper time. Now there's no fictional person to get caught in the thousands of possible ways the scheme would fail.


No, you're right, a hologram won't stand scrutiny under sensors. That's the biggest potential risk with this tactic. However, if the programming is convincing enough, the enemy would not have a reason to scan said target anymore than they'd have a reason to scan every grunt that walks through engineering.
If the security department isn't randomly running unannounced scans of the ship and crew, they're not doing a very good job. That's reason enough. And sensitive areas, such as engineering, communications, transporter rooms, weapons control, bridge, computer systems, damn near every part of the ship, should have automated scanners to determine who is entering the area.

[Ravens_cry]

According to Memory Alpha, at least, it's kinda the inverse:
They were good at bypassing shields, but not very good at actually inflicting damage. The episode with the lasers being fired at the Enterprise were apparently out-dated, weaker lasers or something.
Eh, I admit I am not the most up to date or complete on Trek lore. Still, the basic logic stands.

[DiscipleofBob]

That would be a sleeper agent. Which is a form of long-term espionage.

Then I state that a holo-sleeper agent on a short term assignment (less than 24 hours) is a very real possibility, provided that a mobile emitter can be engineered in the first place.


Why bother to beam aboard something that looks like a person? Have the device beamed aboard, and activate at the proper time. Now there's no fictional person to get caught in the thousands of possible ways the scheme would fail.

The device in question IS the mobile emitter.


If the security department isn't randomly running unannounced scans of the ship and crew, they're not doing a very good job. That's reason enough. And sensitive areas, such as engineering, communications, transporter rooms, weapons control, bridge, computer systems, damn near every part of the ship, should have automated scanners to determine who is entering the area.

Then the security crews of most Star Trek fleets aren't doing a very good job, something that I really won't argue with.

[razark]

The device in question IS the mobile emitter.
So why not beam it aboard hidden in a box of cargo/mail bag/can of beans/crewman's dirty laundry, and have it remain hidden and inactive until it is needed? Instead of programming it to walk around and try to fit in with the crew, have it activate when needed and perform its mission, and then destruct afterwards. Anything beyond that only provides the target extra time to discover it.


Then the security crews of most Star Trek fleets aren't doing a very good job, something that I really won't argue with.
Any real service branch run as poorly as Starfleet would serve no purpose at all. if it were merely an exploration service, it would be one thing, but it's the defense arm, and as such, should be run much differently.

[Karoht]

Hack the other ship's replicator and containment field systems. Replicators are more likely to work since they are low profile systems, probably less security.

Create Holographic identity.

Yes, it's sort of suspicous that one only ever sees Steve repairing replicators, but since you want your Tea, Earl Grey, Hot, and you want it right away when you wake up, are you really going to question the guy fixing the replicator if it's actually broken or not? Probably not. Maybe if he spends an inordinate amount of time at the replicator, but he can just use another replicator to appear next to. Cargo bays have major replicators, engineering has replicators, crew quarters have replicators. Plenty of damage can be done if used correctly.

Appear at replicator.
Replicate phaser.
Kill crew member in sleep.
Replicator log is wiped.
Hologram appears at another replicator.
Repeat.

Or
Appear at Cargo Bay Replicator
Replicate Phaser, possibly some additional explosives.
Rig explosives along with any hazardous goods which already happen to be in the Cargo Bay.
Use Phaser as Detonator.
For bonus points, open cargo bay door first. Resulting explosion should create a weakening of the shields and containment systems around that area for another ship to potentially take advantage of. If not, it at least creates a distraction to Appear at an Engineering Replicator and cause some havok there.

Even just appearing as a Holographic Bacterium (with auditory capacity) and listening in on conversations in say, the Captain's Quarters or Ready Room, would be of astonishing tactical value. It doesn't even have to leave the Replicator, odds are.

[The Glyphstone]

Weren't shipboard replicators hard-wired to not be capable of producing weapons or explosives?

[Ravens_cry]

You know, instead of a holographic infiltrator, with all the problems of creating an identity for them, or of impersonating a crew member, even a large ship is still a fairly small community and word travels fast in small communities, why not ditch the holographic component, except as optical camouflage for the emitter and just use the force field?
Force fields can be made completely transparent, and it doesn't have be strong, only powerful enough to press buttons and such. It could change shape, becoming as thin as the emitter to slip through doors, hugging the ceiling and walls, going through air vents and jefferies tubes.
If you could distribute the functions of the emitter to a small cloud of nanites, you could make it even more manoeuvrable.
Basically an invisible, shape-shifting, spy.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There's a basic problem here that doesn't seem to be grasped here. Instead of using a problematic holographic agent that can't stand more then basic scrutiny why not simply use a real agent? We've already evidence plastic surgery is advanced as you like in the Trekverse. Klingon altered to look human from Trials and Tribbleations for example. Better still just use the timeless method of an actual agent who doesn't even need a faked face.

Ultimately even if you grant mobile emitters all one needs to do is have the computer schedule a routine scan for holograms outside the holodeck. And by routine... I mean like every minute or sooner. Its well within Trek's tech abilities. An actual agent who for example actually is who they say they are isn't so easily teched around. Sure its harder to obtain, but it will stand up.

Holographic agents as weapons have to succeed every time, not only in their mission but also in never being caught ever. Because as soon as "oh someone used a hologram to X" their will be a fleet wide bulletin about scheduling a strict screening carried out by automatic scan.

Something that would have to occur to the authorities developing the tech only once, leading to an immediate shelving as a waste of time.



Hack the other ship's replicator and containment field systems. Replicators are more likely to work since they are low profile systems, probably less security.

Create Holographic identity.

The first problem will be explained by Morbo: Replicators do not work that way goodnight!

Thank you Morbo.

Also would like a lesson in how trivial it make a starship hack proof from the outside? Because it is trivial. If you are on the inside and everything is so benevolently networked (which we've admittedly some evidence it is internally) then you can do much worse then mess with replicators. Like compromise life support. Of course you'd need a man on the inside which is not a trivial requirement.

And its rather self-defeating, however poor security might be it won't stay that way in reaction to actual successes by hostile parties.

Blowing your enemies up with weapons is an approach that never gets old.

[Karoht]

The first problem will be explained by Morbo: Replicators do not work that way goodnight!
Thank you Morbo.I had a whole counter arguement, but I realized it just boiled into a silly discussion. Care to guess why?


Blowing your enemies up with weapons is an approach that never gets old.Agreed.

[Karoht]

The first problem will be explained by Morbo: Replicators do not work that way goodnight!
Thank you Morbo.I had a whole counter arguement, but I realized it just boiled into a silly discussion. Care to guess why? See below.


Blowing your enemies up with weapons is an approach that never gets old.Agreed.

Given that they weaponized a shielding system, any arguement I have becomes moot. I'm pretty sure I've caused the deaths of many a catgirl enough as it is.

[Karoht]

The first problem will be explained by Morbo: Replicators do not work that way goodnight!
Thank you Morbo.I had a whole counter arguement, but I realized it just boiled into a silly discussion. Care to guess why? See below.


Blowing your enemies up with weapons is an approach that never gets old.Agreed.

Given that they weaponized a shielding system, any arguement I have becomes moot. I'm pretty sure I've caused the deaths of many a catgirl enough as it is.

[Kd7sov]

Weren't shipboard replicators hard-wired to not be capable of producing weapons or explosives?

I'm pretty sure that wasn't established as a hard-and-fast thing; I specifically remember a Deep Space Nine novel (though naturally I have no idea which one) where the objection to replicating phasers was that they'd come out with empty batteries.


Also would like a lesson in how trivial it make a starship hack proof from the outside? Because it is trivial.

I think Starfleet would. Wasn't it in The Wrath of Khan that Kirk managed to take control of another ship just by changing the prefix code on his instruments or some such?

[DiscipleofBob]

There's a basic problem here that doesn't seem to be grasped here. Instead of using a problematic holographic agent that can't stand more then basic scrutiny why not simply use a real agent? We've already evidence plastic surgery is advanced as you like in the Trekverse. Klingon altered to look human from Trials and Tribbleations for example. Better still just use the timeless method of an actual agent who doesn't even need a faked face.

There are two main advantages (and admittedly there are disadvantages as well) to using a holo-agent instead of an actual person. 1. The holo-agent is likely expendable. Just program the holo-agent to trip the ship's self-destruct sequence and you don't have to worry about the extraction of a living being (of course excluding the whole Data and Doctor arguments of holograms are people too). 2. The holo-agent is programmable. The problem with sending in agent(s) into deep cover is that they might not know all the customs and mannerisms they need to know to fit in. Even if they bring along an anthropologist or someone similarly versed in the target culture, anyone who's not similarly versed will have trouble fitting in. A holo-agent could be programmed with as much knowledge and personality as necessary to blend in seamlessly until their task can be accomplished.

I also like Ravens_cry's idea of the invisible shapeshifting forcefield assassin.

Regarding the holographic bug, the only problem with that is even if the hologram itself can hear and receive messages, there needs to be a way to transmit said information back to its programmer without arousing suspicion, a difficult task.

[Ravens_cry]

@Kd7sov:
The books are never canon; it's not like Star Wars where they are secondary canon.

[Kd7sov]

I know that. But I assume that if a thing is established in canon, it is unlikely to be so casually ignored in the books.

(Also I tend to think of the "DS9 Relaunch" books, of which this was not one anyway, as at least mostly canon. But that's a personal thing.)

[hamishspence]

True- but some of them are akin to SW's "background books" - like the galactic maps, or the various "Technical Guides".

Some of the novels try to explain various events between the movies- or between the series and the movies. J.M. Dillard's "The Lost Years" provides reasons for things like Spock's attempt to achieve kohlinar at the start of The Motion Picture, and Kirk's decision to take a desk job despite much preferring his career as a captain.

The Eugenics Wars trilogy goes to considerable lengths to reconcile Trek history with "our history"- like how the Botany Bay was created and launched without ordinary people knowing about it- and how Khan ruled a quarter of the world without it being part of "real history".

[Ravens_cry]

Well, the books tend to stick fairly close, but also deviate as required. Books early in a series tend to have quirky characterization and details, but even later ones can be at odds with established canon.
Edit: Oh yes, the Khan books. I wish they'd just left alone. The idea that we barely have had 12 men land on our nearest celestial neighbour while in secret we have an interstellar sleeper ship just irked me.

[hamishspence]

And Shatner effectively created his own continuation that different significantly from the others- the "Shatnerverse" it's sometimes called (The Return, The Ashes of Eden, etc)



Edit: Oh yes, the Khan books. I wish they'd just left alone. The idea that we barely have had 12 men land on our nearest celestial neighbour while in secret we have an interstellar sleeper ship just irked me.

The material left by Quark and co. at Roswell was a big starting point for that tech. There are an enormous number of continuity nods to various episodes- ToS, the movies, TNG, etc.

For example, the guy Scotty gave the secret of transparent aluminium to in Star Trek IV: the Voyage Home? He ended up on the project. As did Jackson Roykirk, the creator of the probe Nomad from the original series.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think Starfleet would. Wasn't it in The Wrath of Khan that Kirk managed to take control of another ship just by changing the prefix code on his instruments or some such?

IIRC Kirk essentially had the equivalent of an admin access login code on file and even with that only Khan's crew not being properly trained officers prevented them from immediately blocking it.

More of a case in point in my book. Aside from changing the code you literally just have to cut power to the receiver of said signal.


There are two main advantages (and admittedly there are disadvantages as well) to using a holo-agent instead of an actual person. 1. The holo-agent is likely expendable. Just program the holo-agent to trip the ship's self-destruct sequence and you don't have to worry about the extraction of a living being (of course excluding the whole Data and Doctor arguments of holograms are people too). 2. The holo-agent is programmable. The problem with sending in agent(s) into deep cover is that they might not know all the customs and mannerisms they need to know to fit in. Even if they bring along an anthropologist or someone similarly versed in the target culture, anyone who's not similarly versed will have trouble fitting in. A holo-agent could be programmed with as much knowledge and personality as necessary to blend in seamlessly until their task can be accomplished.

Ahem...

*Alarm goes off on bridge*
Picard: Mr Data what is the alert for?
Data: Captain, a routine life-support scan detected a rogue holo-emitter the minute it went active.
Picard: Where is this emitter Mr Data?
Data: In a turbolift Captain, I have sealed access automatically. It is contained sir.
Picard: Good work Mr. Data. Mr. Worf dispatch a security detail to collect our rogue hologram agent. Let us see what we can learn from it.
Worf: Aye Captain

(Okay Worf should probably have all of those lines but I digress. Also the computer could probably perform the check quicker)

[Ravens_cry]

The material left by Quark and co. at Roswell was a big starting point for that tech. There are an enormous number of continuity nods to various episodes- ToS, the movies, TNG, etc.

For example, the guy Scotty gave the secret of transparent aluminium to in Star Trek IV: the Voyage Home? He ended up on the project. As did Jackson Roykirk, the creator of the probe Nomad from the original series.


I guess what irks is that such technology could open up the solar system. Been able to put people into hibernation would mean Mars becomes a very realistic possibility.The speeds they would have to be going in order to be as far out as they were to do so make even Pluto a possible manned destination. Not to mention the artificial gravity would be invaluable for manned space exploration. No more worries about bone loss and muscle atrophy, the solar system would be our playground!
But no, since the plot insists it has to stay 'our world', there is no way such technology is ever taken advantage of for anything but exiling our resident gen-heads, despite it's practically unlimited possibilities.

[DiscipleofBob]

Ahem...

*Alarm goes off on bridge*
Picard: Mr Data what is the alert for?
Data: Captain, a routine life-support scan detected a rogue holo-emitter the minute it went active.
Picard: Where is this emitter Mr Data?
Data: In a turbolift Captain, I have sealed access automatically. It is contained sir.
Picard: Good work Mr. Data. Mr. Worf dispatch a security detail to collect our rogue hologram agent. Let us see what we can learn from it.
Worf: Aye Captain

(Okay Worf should probably have all of those lines but I digress. Also the computer could probably perform the check quicker)

Once again, that would be an effective counter if anyone actually did that. But they don't. Blame it on in-universe stupidity if you wish, but they still don't do regular shipwide scans like that. Even if they did, the scan would have to specifically scan for and locate holo-emitters, otherwise it's just a vague "energy spike" that quickly gets written off in the first five minutes of the episode just before the opening credits.

Besides, if that ever happened to be the scenario, instead of programming a sleeper agent, at that point you could just say, "Okay, computer, make the program when activated an armor-plated tyrannosaurus rex/Klingon behemoth/fairy tail dragon with the following specifications: hide immune to all settings of phaser (as well as any known munitions we can think the enemy might have), claws and stength able to rip apart the structure of a space station, inclination towards extreme violence, etcetera." Literally limited to whatever the programmer can think of. You can even just say "More intelligent than and capable of beating the entire crew of the other ship" and the computer will fill in the blanks.

[Ravens_cry]

The mobile emitter wouldn't be immune to phaser fire.
Sure, that's a pretty small target, but Next Generation 'television remote control' phasers come with an auto-targeting feature.:smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Isn't this entire topic about the characters of Star Trek not using a (supposedly) incredibly useful and versatile technology as a weapon? In an Alt-Trek where they have offensive holotechnology, either we have to further wreck suspension of disbelief by only applying that creativity selectively, or assume that countermeasures and practical defenses would be employed against such things.


EDIT: Not to mention, that mobile emitter has to power what it's creating. Or do you think mobile holo-emitters can match the strength of an entire starship's deflector shields?

[Traab]

Weren't shipboard replicators hard-wired to not be capable of producing weapons or explosives?

Several times in various series id see a potential spy brought on board enterprise or voyager and have heard them mention that the replicators are programmed to not grant them access to creating weaponry and such. Basically, the implication is that someone like picard could walk up to a replicator and say, "Multi-phasic pulse disruptor plasma bolter anti matter deuterium launcher" and boom, there would be the gun. Or at least he could make it produce the parts and he could assemble it. But for security purposes, certain key components are not available to everyone.

[The Glyphstone]

Several times in various series id see a potential spy brought on board enterprise or voyager and have heard them mention that the replicators are programmed to not grant them access to creating weaponry and such. Basically, the implication is that someone like picard could walk up to a replicator and say, "Multi-phasic pulse disruptor plasma bolter anti matter deuterium launcher" and boom, there would be the gun. Or at least he could make it produce the parts and he could assemble it. But for security purposes, certain key components are not available to everyone.

Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was a software/programming block that could be removed/hacked, or a hardwired "the machine will not accept commands to make this under any circumstance" limitation.

[hamishspence]

But no, since the plot insists it has to stay 'our world', there is no way such technology is ever taken advantage of for anything but exiling our resident gen-heads, despite it's practically unlimited possibilities.

There were the "cryo-satellites" which preserved a few people who were later thawed in a TNG episode.

The plot has to diverge from real history at some point though, to account for Shaun Christopher's manned mission to Saturn (which is mentioned in The Original Series).

On holograms- how do they manage all those miners (former EMHs)- holo-emitters throughout the mines?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Isn't this entire topic about the characters of Star Trek not using a (supposedly) incredibly useful and versatile technology as a weapon? In an Alt-Trek where they have offensive holotechnology, either we have to further wreck suspension of disbelief by only applying that creativity selectively, or assume that countermeasures and practical defenses would be employed against such things.


EDIT: Not to mention, that mobile emitter has to power what it's creating. Or do you think mobile holo-emitters can match the strength of an entire starship's deflector shields?

My thoughts exactly if averting writer induced stupidity results in some great and useful weapon... then writer induced stupidity cannot be used to cover the gaps in said idea.

Also holograms are not "things" they are shaped forcefields so they have a coherent maximum on what can be created power wise.


Yeah, I couldn't remember if it was a software/programming block that could be removed/hacked, or a hardwired "the machine will not accept commands to make this under any circumstance" limitation.

Obviously everything is made with replicators somewhere but if I were outfitting a ship I'd restrict certain dangerous items to stand-alone weapon systems and then never have the technical info for a phaser in the computer to begin with.

After all a replicator doesn't know how to make anything its just a computer. Restrict the blueprint for an item and the replicator simply will have no idea how to make said item.

[Ravens_cry]

There were the "cryo-satellites" which preserved a few people who were later thawed in a TNG episode.

The plot has to diverge from real history at some point though, to account for Shaun Christopher's manned mission to Saturn (which is mentioned in The Original Series).

OK, some applications I grant you, but not the world changing achievements that are the full implications of such technology.
I wish it had stayed diverged, there is no way we're making the 2063 deadline.

[hamishspence]

I wish it had stayed diverged, there is no way we're making the 2063 deadline.

It's even tighter than that: Memory Alpha on the Earth-Saturn probe:


According to the Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology, this mission took place in 2020. The spaceship used on the mission was the Aventeur-class UNSS Lewis and Clark, a clean fission-powered ship assembled in Earth orbit in the year 2008. It was 125 meters in length and had the crew complement of three officers, twelve crew, and the passenger capacity of 94. The same ship was used for the first manned mission to Jupiter in 2014.

Ah well- it's very alternate history from 2000 especially, but at least the 80s and 90s are fairly similar to the real ones in most time travel episodes.

[Ravens_cry]

Ah well- it's very alternate history from 2000 especially, but at least the 80s and 90s are fairly similar to the real ones in most time travel episodes.
I bet the producers rejoiced at those episodes.:smallwink:

[McStabbington]

Speaking of which, the ease of time travel is probably the single biggest unused gun in the Trek verse. The only consolation is that writer-induced stupidity effects both sides. The Federation never bothers to undermine the existence of other powers ala the Time Lords, and when someone like the Borg does it, they do it as some kind of crazy emergency backup instead of just sending a cube back in time 300 years and then sending it on course to Earth.

Of course, some of these are less writer stupidity and more executive meddling. Rick Berman apparently demanded that there be time travel in First Contact to ensure profitability. Because we all know how well time travel worked in Generations. . .

[Traab]

Speaking of which, the ease of time travel is probably the single biggest unused gun in the Trek verse. The only consolation is that writer-induced stupidity effects both sides. The Federation never bothers to undermine the existence of other powers ala the Time Lords, and when someone like the Borg does it, they do it as some kind of crazy emergency backup instead of just sending a cube back in time 300 years and then sending it on course to Earth.

Of course, some of these are less writer stupidity and more executive meddling. Rick Berman apparently demanded that there be time travel in First Contact to ensure profitability. Because we all know how well time travel worked in Generations. . .

The problem with the borg going back in time 300 years and crushing earth is, 300 years ago, there wasnt anything WORTH traveling back in time for. We didnt even have inter stellar space flight yet, and they are after technological, as well as biological distinctiveness to add to their own.

Also, from what I understand, there is a temporal prime directive as well. Time travel is a very strict no no to the federation. Beyond that, you end up with that episode of Voyager, where they run into that giant time travel ship that was constantly resetting the timeline, trying to create the ideal future, and never being happy with what they got. Sure they had an ahab-ish captain obsessed with bringing back his dead wife or whatever, but its still a pretty stark reminder of the perils and temptations of time travel.

[Ravens_cry]

</personal fanon> Well, in the future, as well as the past, and not a few in the present, there is extremely efficient time police preventing these kinds of problems.
Things occasionally slip through, but they tend work out in the end.
Guinan's origin are one example where they fumbled. </personal fanon>

[McStabbington]

The problem with the borg going back in time 300 years and crushing earth is, 300 years ago, there wasnt anything WORTH traveling back in time for. We didnt even have inter stellar space flight yet, and they are after technological, as well as biological distinctiveness to add to their own.

Also, from what I understand, there is a temporal prime directive as well. Time travel is a very strict no no to the federation. Beyond that, you end up with that episode of Voyager, where they run into that giant time travel ship that was constantly resetting the timeline, trying to create the ideal future, and never being happy with what they got. Sure they had an ahab-ish captain obsessed with bringing back his dead wife or whatever, but its still a pretty stark reminder of the perils and temptations of time travel.

Assuming that all time travel doesn't form a stable time loop, I'd certainly agree. But Trek itself is inconsistent on the subject; it's never mentioned as a possibility unless it's used, and then it's usually used poorly. The only thing that helps is that everyone seems to use it poorly in equal measure: remember that the Borg traveling back in time isn't some ridiculous possibility. It was quite visibly their Plan B. And when Plan B got shot down, they tried to beacon in Borg from their time as a Plan C. Technology, as well as logic, was just sitting that movie out.

[Traab]

Assuming that all time travel doesn't form a stable time loop, I'd certainly agree. But Trek itself is inconsistent on the subject; it's never mentioned as a possibility unless it's used, and then it's usually used poorly. The only thing that helps is that everyone seems to use it poorly in equal measure: remember that the Borg traveling back in time isn't some ridiculous possibility. It was quite visibly their Plan B. And when Plan B got shot down, they tried to beacon in Borg from their time as a Plan C. Technology, as well as logic, was just sitting that movie out.

Can you imagine the difficulty in coordinating time travel repair jobs? I mean, as an example, say the federation wants to reverse some sort of huge apocalyptic event like the utter destruction of the alpha quadrant. It isnt as simple as going back in time 3 days and stopping some dumb romulan from pressing a trigger, you have to go far enough back to change the events that lead up to it, otherwise they will just try again.

But lets say you do manage it, then what? The timeline is reset, depending on how far back you had to go to change things, noone will remember you due to the butterfly effect, so now they have to deal with some claimed time travelers with no credentials that pass muster, and who are unaware of the events that took place in the intervening time frame. And thats just the tip of the iceberg! What makes you think going back far enough to stop THAT catastrophe wont lead to other, possibly even WORSE issues cropping up? Sure you defanged the romulans, but due to the events you altered, the klingons won a huge victory and now rule over half of the federation space. It would be an unholy mess. It was complicated enough in Seven Days. And at least then he couldnt go back in time far enough to accidentally erase peoples memories of him.

Basically, even if time travel works the way it is supposed to in movies, the unintended consequences, and the small details that are overlooked, make it a terrible idea for anything but short term fixes.

[DiscipleofBob]

Can you imagine the difficulty in coordinating time travel repair jobs? I mean, as an example, say the federation wants to reverse some sort of huge apocalyptic event like the utter destruction of the alpha quadrant. It isnt as simple as going back in time 3 days and stopping some dumb romulan from pressing a trigger, you have to go far enough back to change the events that lead up to it, otherwise they will just try again.

But lets say you do manage it, then what? The timeline is reset, depending on how far back you had to go to change things, noone will remember you due to the butterfly effect, so now they have to deal with some claimed time travelers with no credentials that pass muster, and who are unaware of the events that took place in the intervening time frame. And thats just the tip of the iceberg! What makes you think going back far enough to stop THAT catastrophe wont lead to other, possibly even WORSE issues cropping up? Sure you defanged the romulans, but due to the events you altered, the klingons won a huge victory and now rule over half of the federation space. It would be an unholy mess. It was complicated enough in Seven Days. And at least then he couldnt go back in time far enough to accidentally erase peoples memories of him.

Basically, even if time travel works the way it is supposed to in movies, the unintended consequences, and the small details that are overlooked, make it a terrible idea for anything but short term fixes.

Not to mention that depending on what theory of time travel you subscribe to, you wouldn't actually be fixing anything in your universe, you'd just be creating an alternate universe where you averted said disaster.

[Ravens_cry]

Not to mention that depending on what theory of time travel you subscribe to, you wouldn't actually be fixing anything in your universe, you'd just be creating an alternate universe where you averted said disaster.
One thing that seems to be fairly consistent in Trek Lore is that people from time-lines that are invalidated tend to fade away.
The feral Molly O'Brian and Harry Kim are some examples off the top of my head.
Call it the McFly Effect.:smalltongue:

[DiscipleofBob]

One thing that seems to be fairly consistent in Trek Lore is that people from time-lines that are invalidated tend to fade away.
The feral Molly O'Brian and Harry Kim are some examples off the top of my head.
Call it the McFly Effect.:smalltongue:

Wasn't there an episode that had Worf contantly shifting between multiple alternate realities, several of which he'd actually married Counselor Troi?

[Ravens_cry]

Wasn't there an episode that had Worf contantly shifting between multiple alternate realities, several of which he'd actually married Counselor Troi?
Yes there was, and it was a pretty good one too.

[Lord Tyger]

Don't forget the potential uses holodeck/replicator/transporter technology has outside of a direct fight. You could slip in sleeper agent(s) among an enemy ship with some mobile emitters and the transporter unnoticed. Just tell the computer your parameters (subject knows all the customs of said race and believes themselves to be a loyal soldier, under X condition, subject will do X to the ship/crew without question overwriting all previous personality traits, etcetera) and aside from the enemy ship maybe knowing that something was beamed aboard, the sleeper holograms blend in perfectly until the appropriate time.

No you couldn't. There's one mobile emitter in the Trek world, and that was built in the distant future. It's not something they use a lot because it's NOT SOMETHING THEY KNOW HOW TO BUILD.

[The Glyphstone]

No you couldn't. There's one mobile emitter in the Trek world, and that was built in the distant future. It's not something they use a lot because it's NOT SOMETHING THEY KNOW HOW TO BUILD.

...We kinda spent the last three pages discussing that.

[Traab]

Not to mention that depending on what theory of time travel you subscribe to, you wouldn't actually be fixing anything in your universe, you'd just be creating an alternate universe where you averted said disaster.

Then its less time travel and more alternate reality travel. Dimension hopping or some such thing. Thats the part that bugged me about people who use the alternate timeline argument. Its just another way of saying alternate reality, and as such is not time travel at all really. You went back in time and changed things. Its really an academic distinction as to whether you created an alternate reality, or if you just changed the past of your reality and it is now moving along its new path.

[Abies]

</personal fanon> Well, in the future, as well as the past, and not a few in the present, there is extremely efficient time police preventing these kinds of problems.
Things occasionally slip through, but they tend work out in the end.
Guinan's origin are one example where they fumbled. </personal fanon>

Actually, that's not fanon, its right there in the Voyager episode Future's End part 2. Basically a Federation timeship from the 29th century, while doing passive scans, notices Voyager in 1990's Earth orbit. The captain shows up, tell them he's taking back to where they "Should Be" and that's that.

How the Federation ever managed to get to the point of casual timeship creation/travel without exploiting time travel (or their enemies exploiting it) is beyond me. But there you go, canon proof that there are, in fact, time police preventing the abuse of time travel in Star Trek.

[McStabbington]

Can you imagine the difficulty in coordinating time travel repair jobs? I mean, as an example, say the federation wants to reverse some sort of huge apocalyptic event like the utter destruction of the alpha quadrant. It isnt as simple as going back in time 3 days and stopping some dumb romulan from pressing a trigger, you have to go far enough back to change the events that lead up to it, otherwise they will just try again.

But lets say you do manage it, then what? The timeline is reset, depending on how far back you had to go to change things, noone will remember you due to the butterfly effect, so now they have to deal with some claimed time travelers with no credentials that pass muster, and who are unaware of the events that took place in the intervening time frame. And thats just the tip of the iceberg! What makes you think going back far enough to stop THAT catastrophe wont lead to other, possibly even WORSE issues cropping up? Sure you defanged the romulans, but due to the events you altered, the klingons won a huge victory and now rule over half of the federation space. It would be an unholy mess. It was complicated enough in Seven Days. And at least then he couldnt go back in time far enough to accidentally erase peoples memories of him.

Basically, even if time travel works the way it is supposed to in movies, the unintended consequences, and the small details that are overlooked, make it a terrible idea for anything but short term fixes.

That's basically just the "You don't know what would happen" argument. But here's the thing: there are plenty of instances in which it wouldn't really matter what would happen, since anything would be better than the status quo ante. In a universe where the Borg weren't stopped at Earth and assimilated most of the Federation, the idea that going back a thousand years and glassing their home world while they are still in their infancy might somehow alter any meaningful events in the Alpha Quadrant prior to Wolf 359 is a) laughable, since there's no evidence that the Borg were anything more than boogeymen in the fringes of deep space prior to their first contact with the Enterprise, and b) still an improvement.

Further, it's not like the "You don't know what would happen" argument didn't apply all those other times they went back in time. Heck, according to Voyager, in the 29th century the Federation will have ships designed for nothing but sending people back in time and screwing around with the timeline. So why wasn't it so imperative to not screw up the timeline when Kirk brought George and Gracie back to the future to tell that probe to piss off? Or when aliens were sucking the souls out of alcholics in Reconstruction-era San Francisco? Or when the entire bridge crew of the Enterprise decided to take over mission control for Zephram Cochrane's first warp flight?

I almost get the sense that you're arguing for the sake of arguing here. The argument here isn't that it's a good or a bad idea. That's not even relevant to the conversation about how great a weapon time travel could be. Presumably, it's incredibly risky even in the best of circumstances. The argument is that the canon of Star Trek likes to have it both ways. Sometimes it's absolutely imperative to preserve the timeline and render sacrosanct history as we know it. And sometimes it's absolutely imperative to go back in time and play Russian roulette with the timeline. And when they do decide to play Russian roulette, they usually do so in the least sensible manner possible. When Picard leaves the Nexus, he doesn't go back three days prior when he had Soren on his ship and put him in the brig. No, he goes back to the moment where he's ready to shoot out a star so he can duke it out with Soren. The only saving grace is that when everyone else decides it's imperative to screw with the timeline, they do it in stupid and ridiculous ways too.

In short, I would like the writers to pick an approach to time travel and stick with it. And until they clearly establish that it's a gun that should never, ever, under any circumstances be fired, it will remain the biggest and most clumsily handled unfired gun in the Federation arsenal.

[Traab]

That's basically just the "You don't know what would happen" argument. But here's the thing: there are plenty of instances in which it wouldn't really matter what would happen, since anything would be better than the status quo ante. In a universe where the Borg weren't stopped at Earth and assimilated most of the Federation, the idea that going back a thousand years and glassing their home world while they are still in their infancy might somehow alter any meaningful events in the Alpha Quadrant prior to Wolf 359 is a) laughable, since there's no evidence that the Borg were anything more than boogeymen in the fringes of deep space prior to their first contact with the Enterprise, and b) still an improvement.

Further, it's not like the "You don't know what would happen" argument didn't apply all those other times they went back in time. Heck, according to Voyager, in the 29th century the Federation will have ships designed for nothing but sending people back in time and screwing around with the timeline. So why wasn't it so imperative to not screw up the timeline when Kirk brought George and Gracie back to the future to tell that probe to piss off? Or when aliens were sucking the souls out of alcholics in Reconstruction-era San Francisco? Or when the entire bridge crew of the Enterprise decided to take over mission control for Zephram Cochrane's first warp flight?

I almost get the sense that you're arguing for the sake of arguing here. The argument here isn't that it's a good or a bad idea. That's not even relevant to the conversation about how great a weapon time travel could be. Presumably, it's incredibly risky even in the best of circumstances. The argument is that the canon of Star Trek likes to have it both ways. Sometimes it's absolutely imperative to preserve the timeline and render sacrosanct history as we know it. And sometimes it's absolutely imperative to go back in time and play Russian roulette with the timeline. And when they do decide to play Russian roulette, they usually do so in the least sensible manner possible. When Picard leaves the Nexus, he doesn't go back three days prior when he had Soren on his ship and put him in the brig. No, he goes back to the moment where he's ready to shoot out a star so he can duke it out with Soren. The only saving grace is that when everyone else decides it's imperative to screw with the timeline, they do it in stupid and ridiculous ways too.

In short, I would like the writers to pick an approach to time travel and stick with it. And until they clearly establish that it's a gun that should never, ever, under any circumstances be fired, it will remain the biggest and most clumsily handled unfired gun in the Federation arsenal.

The biggest problem with time travel as a weapon is that its hard to use properly, because eventually, your enemies will likely develop time travel as well and then its a game of back and forth as people from both sides are constantly trying to manipulate the past to make their future better for themselves. Unless you are absolutely ruthless in your application of it and use it to go back far enough to totally cripple every other race out there so they can never rise to face you, the standoff is the eventual end point. Its mutually assured destruction on an epic scale as everyone is worried about everyone else going back and crippling them in the past, and in the end we wind up with those futuristic time cops that fix any attempts to travel through time.

[McStabbington]

That's actually a perfectly plausible reason why they wouldn't use time travel, and were they to reboot the universe, it would be an effective in-universe rule restricting its use. I like it. But unlike the banning of the cloaking device (Treaty of Algeron), however, it isn't something that's actively been discussed to my knowledge.

[Traab]

That's actually a perfectly plausible reason why they wouldn't use time travel, and were they to reboot the universe, it would be an effective in-universe rule restricting its use. I like it. But unlike the banning of the cloaking device (Treaty of Algeron), however, it isn't something that's actively been discussed to my knowledge.

I think they mention it a few times as the temporal prime directive or some such, but like the standard prime directive, I dont think we really need an episode that shows it being created so much as mentioning it when it comes into play and then explain why. But in the actual star trek timeline that we experience, its basically a taboo that noone is supposed to be even researching how to do it, and its a rule for if you find yourself stuck in a time travel scenario, as does happen from *cough* time to time *cough* you know what to, and not to do. Like one of those survival guide books, "You may never find yourself in this situation, but now that you have read this manual, you will know what to do if it happens. Good luck."

[Soras Teva Gee]

Kirk had 17 violations of the temporal prime directive didn't he.

Anyways its never surprising to not see weaponized time travel, since the only rational form of it robs itself of the primary reason for doing so.

The real problem is that it keeps showing up.

[Karoht]

That's basically just the "You don't know what would happen" argument. But here's the thing: there are plenty of instances in which it wouldn't really matter what would happen, since anything would be better than the status quo ante. In a universe where the Borg weren't stopped at Earth and assimilated most of the Federation, the idea that going back a thousand years and glassing their home world while they are still in their infancy might somehow alter any meaningful events in the Alpha Quadrant prior to Wolf 359 is a) laughable, since there's no evidence that the Borg were anything more than boogeymen in the fringes of deep space prior to their first contact with the Enterprise, and b) still an improvement.Point of reference, the Borg were also occupied fighting off another species, (3472?) which also assimilates things. Removing the Borg from the picture might only speed up the rate at which that species become dominant instead. Before Voyager discovered this, there was no reason to suspect that removing the Borg as a threat would be a bad thing. Once Voyager did discover it, the question now stands if 3472 would or would not merely replace the Borg threat, and would they be better to deal with, or worse?



The argument here isn't that it's a good or a bad idea. That's not even relevant to the conversation about how great a weapon time travel could be. Presumably, it's incredibly risky even in the best of circumstances.
The argument is that the canon of Star Trek likes to have it both ways. Sometimes it's absolutely imperative to preserve the timeline and render sacrosanct history as we know it. And sometimes it's absolutely imperative to go back in time and play Russian roulette with the timeline. And when they do decide to play Russian roulette, they usually do so in the least sensible manner possible. When Picard leaves the Nexus, he doesn't go back three days prior when he had Soren on his ship and put him in the brig. No, he goes back to the moment where he's ready to shoot out a star so he can duke it out with Soren. The only saving grace is that when everyone else decides it's imperative to screw with the timeline, they do it in stupid and ridiculous ways too.Amen.
I always wondered how he left the Nexus before it hit the planet, but somehow didn't end up in space enduring vacuum.



In short, I would like the writers to pick an approach to time travel and stick with it. And until they clearly establish that it's a gun that should never, ever, under any circumstances be fired, it will remain the biggest and most clumsily handled unfired gun in the Federation arsenal.I'm very very glad that the new Trek film established this in a roundabout sort of way. Namely by stating that going back and altering the timeline creates an alternate timeline altogether, and as such one isn't really solving the problems of the current timeline by going back. It renders time travel a bit less useful as such, and it sort of reconciles the mirror universe as much more plausible after that.

But then there's predestination paradox. Which Trek likes to flirt with, rather a lot.

[Kd7sov]

Point of reference, the Borg were also occupied fighting off another species, (3472?) which also assimilates things. Removing the Borg from the picture might only speed up the rate at which that species become dominant instead. Before Voyager discovered this, there was no reason to suspect that removing the Borg as a threat would be a bad thing. Once Voyager did discover it, the question now stands if 3472 would or would not merely replace the Borg threat, and would they be better to deal with, or worse?

...Um.

It's been a while, but as I recall, the Borg had opened the portal to fluidic space (a separate universe or some such, where Species 8472 live) quite recently as of the episode in question. If the Borg had been out of the picture, it's entirely possible that 8472 would have never encountered the Trek universe, or vice versa.

[Karoht]

...Um.

It's been a while, but as I recall, the Borg had opened the portal to fluidic space (a separate universe or some such, where Species 8472 live) quite recently as of the episode in question. If the Borg had been out of the picture, it's entirely possible that 8472 would have never encountered the Trek universe, or vice versa.

Because the Federation has never ever stumbled (intentionally or accidentally) into portals or wormholes or anything else that lead to some other place.
It's entirely likely as well that without the Borg threat, research into further transporation systems would have improved to the point where experimentation (potentially within Federation space rather than outside it) into Fluidic Space would have occured.

From wiki:
"– it had in fact long been known that the Borg themselves started the war between the two species by invading fluidic space to assimilate the superior technology of Species 8472."

Now sure, the Borg started the fight. On the other hand, if Voyager has taught us anything, there are just some species out there who will try to kill you simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, never mind if they fired the first shot, or if you tried to parlay with them, or anything of the sort. So even an accidental exploratory 'invasion' of fluidic space might have been enough to trigger an initial confrontation. The Borg had the power to hold the species back through sheer firepower. The Federation would have been decimated. Yes, the Doctor invented a superweapon (using Borg Nanoprobes) and cure for their bioweapon, but only had the ability to do so because the Borg existed in the first place and because he had direct and prolonged contact with one.

In short, no Borg, encountering Species 8472 could have been disasterous, could have been just another peaceful encounter followed by negociation followed by treaty.

[Traab]

Because the Federation has never ever stumbled (intentionally or accidentally) into portals or wormholes or anything else that lead to some other place.
It's entirely likely as well that without the Borg threat, research into further transporation systems would have improved to the point where experimentation (potentially within Federation space rather than outside it) into Fluidic Space would have occured.

From wiki:
"– it had in fact long been known that the Borg themselves started the war between the two species by invading fluidic space to assimilate the superior technology of Species 8472."

Now sure, the Borg started the fight. On the other hand, if Voyager has taught us anything, there are just some species out there who will try to kill you simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, never mind if they fired the first shot, or if you tried to parlay with them, or anything of the sort. So even an accidental exploratory 'invasion' of fluidic space might have been enough to trigger an initial confrontation. The Borg had the power to hold the species back through sheer firepower. The Federation would have been decimated. Yes, the Doctor invented a superweapon (using Borg Nanoprobes) and cure for their bioweapon, but only had the ability to do so because the Borg existed in the first place and because he had direct and prolonged contact with one.

In short, no Borg, encountering Species 8472 could have been disasterous, could have been just another peaceful encounter followed by negociation followed by treaty.

The Borg didnt have the ability to "hold back" 8472. There were just an awful lot of borg to kill before 8472 would run out of targets. It wasnt a slow loss that was gradually bringing down the borg, it was total decimation in every battle and the borg were helpless. Also, you are basically guessing at what 8472 would have done had they met the federation first. The borg invaded and attacked them with no warning or provocation, returning the favor is too be expected.

[Winter]

Probably the most blatant example was the transporter-sniper-rifle from DS9. They get a weapon that can shoot through walls using easily available technology . . . and they forget about it completely and never use it again. It's especially blatant because later on, they did the "Siege of AR-558" episode, with Federation and Jem'Hadar attacking each other with WW1-style trench warfare. There were dozens of bits of previously-established technology that could have won the battle for them quickly easily, but it never occurred to anyone to use them.

This is the reason why one of the Big SciFi Shows of the 90s was pretty awesome (Bablyon 5) and the other one sucked bigtime (DS9). One tried create a closed continuum that made sense in itself, the other was just thrown together by a bunch of writers and no real global vision.
DS9 started a big war that threatened the entire sector - and then totally forgot to mention that for the next four episodes but did normal isolated episodes. Seriously? That it screws up with technology is no surprise.

That Voyager then became even worse in regard to techological continuity and inventing TechnoBabble Phlogiston- and Unobtainium driven Tech to solve This Episode's Problem did not make Star Trek any better.

ST passed with the last episode of TNG and a few good DS9 or Voy episodes did not change that.
Luckily, we had B5 back then. :smallbiggrin:

The biggest continuity issues of B5 were added due to the story changing (first Sinclair getting moved out and thus shacking up the entire Planet-Sized-Time-Travel-Device and second the uncertainty if they'd get their fifth season which lead to a very sped-up fourth season) and were not caused not crappy or uncoordinated writing (and the issues of B5 paled when compared to the late Trek shows).

But the DS9- and Voy-bashing aside: Yes, ST is full of things that make no sense because they added so much, much, much TechnoBabbleTechnology (either as problem or solution or for both) for the Isolated Episode of the Week.

Edit: and adding Casual Time Travel is always a very, very bad thing. Time Travel in any story has to be done "right" and a lot of thought has to go into it and it must be a central element. Or you cause all kinds of things but to the breakdown of Suspension of Disbelief.
This is imo what happend to Star Trek as well. If the audience has to ask "Why don't they just Time Travel again..." or "Why don't their enemies Time Travel to do this or that..." then you have already lost.

[Forbiddenwar]

DS9 started a big war that threatened the entire sector - and then totally forgot to mention that for the next four episodes but did normal isolated episodes. Seriously? That it screws up with technology is no surprise.

Luckily, we had B5 back then. :smallbiggrin:



Yes, cause B5 never had episodes that had nothing to do with a big galatic war and focused instead on what wife to keep or a person claiming to be king arthur, or letting a kid die because of religious reasons. :smalltongue:

In all seriousness, if you were to condense DS9 seven seasons into B5's 3, then they would likely be the same (the exact same, hence the lawsuit)

The problem with comparing a television show like DS9 with a visual serial novel like B5 is obvious. It's not the even the same structure.

[Ravens_cry]

Heh, the transporter rifle reminds me of the FarSight from the Nintendo 64 game Perfect Dark, only it had a cooler effect for using its special sight than 'everything is tinted green'.

[Joran]

This is the reason why one of the Big SciFi Shows of the 90s was pretty awesome (Bablyon 5) and the other one sucked bigtime (DS9). One tried create a closed continuum that made sense in itself, the other was just thrown together by a bunch of writers and no real global vision.
DS9 started a big war that threatened the entire sector - and then totally forgot to mention that for the next four episodes but did normal isolated episodes. Seriously? That it screws up with technology is no surprise.

That Voyager then became even worse in regard to techological continuity and inventing TechnoBabble Phlogiston- and Unobtainium driven Tech to solve This Episode's Problem did not make Star Trek any better.

But the DS9- and Voy-bashing aside: Yes, ST is full of things that make no sense because they added so much, much, much TechnoBabbleTechnology (either as problem or solution or for both) for the Isolated Episode of the Week.


I enjoyed DS9 more than any of the other Star Treks. I also greatly enjoyed Babylon 5.

The problem with Star Trek is that it's had a great many writers and is spread out over 5 different series and 11 different movies without any one person being "The Man". Similarly, Star Trek was also an episodic show; to increase the number of viewers and to make it easy for someone to watch the series, they deliberately made each episode self-contained. Take TNG, watch episodes in random order and it doesn't much matter. Sure, some people will come and go (bye Wesley!), but understanding an episode doesn't require any previous knowledge. DS9 improved things by doing mini-arcs, but it was never going to be a serial drama like Babylon 5 was.

It's easier to have a consistent technology base when one person (or small group of people) has complete creative control, like J. Michael Straczynski or George Lucas. In that case, there's a Word of God, a single voice of canon. Star Trek had that man in Roddenberry, but he had already been pushed out by the midway point of Star Trek: TNG. Also for Roddenberry, I don't think Star Trek was ever a world building exercise, like a Tolkien or a Straczynski. There's very little exploration into exactly how the Federation operates, what a moneyless society would look like. Instead, the show is supposed to explore present day situations through the lens of a futuristic TV show. He was more interested in exploring various facets of the present day than in making an internally consistent universe.

P.S. The reason I love DS9 is because the people in DS9 are allowed to have conflicts, character flaws, and character development. Garak, Kira, Martok, the list goes on with really interesting characters that change throughout the series.

[McStabbington]

This is off-topic, so I won't post further on the subject after this, but it's also important to remember where DS9 and B5 fall in television sci-fi history. If you map them the way we map comics, TNG would basically be the highwater mark of the Silver Age. The emphasis was threefold: on creating entertaining individual stories, showcasing the viability of a genre that had gone dead since the Golden Age of Star Trek/The Twilight Zone/The Outer Limits/Lost in Space, and using improved technology to pull off movie-quality special effects in a television format and on a television budget. And it succeeded wildly in each of those three regards. Being Silver Age, the emphasis of course was on high enjoyability, even if it wasn't particularly realistic.

But if TNG is Silver Age, then DS9 and B5 mark the beginning of the Bronze Age, where as in Bronze Age comics like Watchmen or The Dark Knight Returns, the emphasis becomes more about deconstructing the conventions that TOS and TNG had built up. Interestingly, DS9 and B5 each attack a different part. B5 deconstructed the lack of story-by-story continuity to create one giant myth arc, while DS9 deconstructed the static characterization. I would actually make the argument that DS9 was doing things in their first season to enrich their characters that B5 wouldn't be doing for years. While the B5 characters all have an arc, they're almost entirely defined by that one bad day they had once. Ivanova's always feeling abandoned, Sheridan's always dealing with the loss of his wife, Marcus Cole is always enduring survivor guilt. By contrast, the DS9 crew have all had very bad days, but that tells you maybe 20% of what you need to know about the character.

For example, in Season 1, Kira is . . . well, she's fanatical in her hatred for Cardassians. And then in Duet (if you haven't seen the episode, go watch it), without spoiling the episode, she basically gets handed a golden opportunity to pour her rage and hatred onto a Cardassian. But then she comes face to face with just how unjust that impulse is. And given the choice between her hate and her desire for justice, she chooses justice, and learns to show mercy even to those whom a day earlier she would have killed with her bare hands if she could. It's a moment that rivals Tapestry or The Inner Light for power. For that matter, it's a moment that rivals G'kar's revalation in Dust to Dust, and that was two years later. And it's only one of her character building moments in the series.

So I think it's really unfair to knock DS9 for not having all the elements we've come to know and love in the Bronze Age, especially when the series' effects play such a huge role in Bronze Age sci-fi. Firefly and BSG wouldn't have had templates to work off of without DS9, and Voyager wouldn't be as despised as it rightly is if the bar hadn't been raised.

[Ravens_cry]

Frankly, I think there is something to be said for a more episodic set-up. It makes things much more accessible for just a sit down and watch, even if it is your first time watching the show.
The Inner Light is still a beautiful episode of The Next Generation, even if it was rarely, but not never, mentioned in the rest of the series.