Star Trek: Extent of Qs powers

[Yora]

This is partly an observation and a question.

It's been some time since I've watched TNG and I don't like Voyager, so my memories may not be exactly correct. But in all the episodes he showed up, what did Q actually do with his powers? He's often described as omnipotent, but I have serious doubts about that.

He can teleport through space and time and can take others with him. One time he moved the Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant to show them the Borg and then send them back, that was the most impressive thing I think he ever did. Everything else he did by creating things out of thin air where mostly visual effects, which he usually makes disappear again after just a few minutes at the most. Holodeck technology can replicate all of these effects.
From what I recall, his powers appear to be limited to teleportation, time travel, and very convincing illusions. That's still crazy powerful if he does it without technology, and he certainly has imense knowledge.
But even with Star Trek writers contradicting each other all the time, he really seems to be mostly about showmanship than being omnipotent.

[Tavar]

I believe that Riker, with Q's power, was able to bring someone back to life.

There's also the fact that, in the episode Deja Q, his suggested solution to the problem is to change the gravitational constant of the universe, with the understanding that he could do it normally.

Actually, just thought of another 2 instances of his power: in All Good Things and Tapestry. In the latter, he shows time travel powers, but most importantly the ability to bring someone back from the dead(Picard in this case). In the former, he does a couple things, including almost erasing Humanity, as part of a test.

[industrious]

You also forget the energy barriers he set up to block the Enterprise in the first two appearances and his freezing of Tasha Yar. Not quite as impressive as changing the gravitational constant of the universe, but still more than illusions and space-time manipulation.

[Ravens_cry]

As mentioned in the other thread, another Q went back in time and brought Voyager along with him to the Big Bang. Q himself followed almost instantly.

[Traab]

In Voyager, the Q Continuum got into a civil war, the side effects of their battles were causing supernovas all over the place.

[Soras Teva Gee]

"Elaborate Illusions" is rather something of an interpretation. Do you think for example that Q was entirely on the level when in Tapestry he allowed Picard to redo his life, then undo his redo. Or was it just a holodeck equivalent? Or when he removed everyone from DS9 so he could irritate Sisko, then Quark's bar totally aware of him and Sisko about to fight?

Also some other exhibited Q feats:
-Letting Data laugh once
-Correcting a moon's orbit
-Granting and taking Q powers
-Turning someone into another species (human, Oprelian amoeba)
-Moving through a shuttle hull
-Walking around on the Enterprise's hull
-Causing a warp core breach and fixing it.
-Weather control to execute some rogue Q (off-screen)
-Causing unintentional supernovas as a side effect to the Q civil war

[Ravens_cry]

In Voyager, the Q Continuum got into a civil war, the side effects of their battles were causing supernovas all over the place.
And that was one of their weaker feeling episodes.

[Traab]

"Elaborate Illusions" is rather something of an interpretation. Do you think for example that Q was entirely on the level when in Tapestry he allowed Picard to redo his life, then undo his redo. Or was it just a holodeck equivalent? Or when he removed everyone from DS9 so he could irritate Sisko, then Quark's bar totally aware of him and Sisko about to fight?

Also some other exhibited Q feats:
-Letting Data laugh once
-Correcting a moon's orbit
-Granting and taking Q powers
-Turning someone into another species (human, Oprelian amoeba)
-Moving through a shuttle hull
-Walking around on the Enterprise's hull
-Causing a warp core breach and fixing it.
-Weather control to execute some rogue Q (off-screen)
-Causing unintentional supernovas as a side effect to the Q civil war

Thats honestly the biggest question. I suppose you COULD try to claim most of his work is illusionary. All an elaborate hoax, but im pretty sure everything Q does is meant to be accepted as really happening. The only real limits on his powers are the rules the rest of the continuum enforces on him. He really does have picard standing on the shores of earth as the first life form is supposed to be created by the primordial ooze, he really did make riker omnipotent then take it back, he really did create those pig men in napolean era uniforms, etc etc etc.

[Soras Teva Gee]

As for fakery I think we can at least establish that by Deja Q (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Deja_Q_%28episode%29) he's supposed to be what he claims, there no secret trick on the creator's part for us to figure out and congratulate ourselves on our cleverness. I think this quote a revealing behind the scenes look:


Michael Piller recalled, "Our first take on it was that Q lost his powers, came on board and we developed a whole story about how we were about to come into a war with the Klingons. It turns out that Q didn't really lose his powers after all, he was just playing with us and pulling our strings just so that he could make himself a hero, become an officer and prove his value. It wasn't a bad story, but ultimately we sat down with Gene and Rick, and Gene said, 'If you're going to do a story – Godlike and brought to Earth – then do it. Do a story about what it's like to lose everything that you are and having to discover your own humanity.' He kind of threw cold water on us and suggested we do it straight forward and that's what we did. We made it a comedy, we made it fun, but I think it has some extraordinary things to say about humanity."

There are certainly bits that could merely be arranged because that's Q's fancy. We actually know there are cases where its more symbolic representation. Ultimately I have to conclude that as far as power goes Q is what he claims to be.

That all said omnipotence isn't as clear cut a definition as it might seem. We can gather from the case of Quinn that Q cannot simply will themselves out of existence and Q can evidently counter one another. All of which is defies being truly omnipotent. That aside there's also the eternal question of the logic of omnipotence:

Can Q create a rock Q could not lift?

There are answers to this question ranging from it being meaningless semantics game, to no because omnipotence does not allow logical contradictions, to Descartes "Of course!" noting that if you can do anything it means you can slap logic around like a little bitch and make A=Orange or pi=42 if you damn well feel like.

[Traab]

As for fakery I think we can at least establish that by Deja Q (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Deja_Q_%28episode%29) he's supposed to be what he claims, there no secret trick on the creator's part for us to figure out and congratulate ourselves on our cleverness. I think this quote a revealing behind the scenes look:



There are certainly bits that could merely be arranged because that's Q's fancy. We actually know there are cases where its more symbolic representation. Ultimately I have to conclude that as far as power goes Q is what he claims to be.

That all said omnipotence isn't as clear cut a definition as it might seem. We can gather from the case of Quinn that Q cannot simply will themselves out of existence and Q can evidently counter one another. All of which is defies being truly omnipotent. That aside there's also the eternal question of the logic of omnipotence:

Can Q create a rock Q could not lift?

There are answers to this question ranging from it being meaningless semantics game, to no because omnipotence does not allow logical contradictions, to Descartes "Of course!" noting that if you can do anything it means you can slap logic around like a little bitch and make A=Orange or pi=42 if you damn well feel like.

Omnipotence is one of those terms that, like infinite, cant really be quantified. Thats because it has no limits. Without limits, we cant determine its extent, and without knowing its extent, we cant understand it truly. Thats why questions like your rock one, cant truly be answered definitively. Well, that and the fact that we cant test it. A question cant truly be answered until it can be tested and proven. Until then its only a hypothesis.

[Tavar]

Oh, and are we also including Star Trek Books in the argument? Because, if we are, there's a bit more evidence.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Oh, and are we also including Star Trek Books in the argument? Because, if we are, there's a bit more evidence.

EU novels, totally not. Their not like SW were some dude is paid a nickel to keep them all straight.

(Though if so there's the "Q Continuum" series which is basically a gigantic Fix Fic connecting just about everything to Q somewhere including the Nexus, Star Trek V, and what killed the dinosaurs)

[Omergideon]

Yeah, so far the only thing a Q has proven completely unable to do is to destroy themselves. Even trying to do so messes up the rest of the Universe and causes problems on a grand scale. It seems that only when multiple Q gang up on one of them do they pull it off easily.

Of course the episode "Q and the Grey" in Voyager is pretty horrible in the way it depicts a Q being cut off from her powers by some temporal doohickeys related to the Q civil war. And the voyager crew sneaking up on and using weapons to threaten several other Q. You could claim they were temporarily given Riker-esque Q powers but the depiction in that episode seems to contradict the rest so heavily as to ruin continuity.



I think the power of the Q is functional omnipotence, in that anything they would desire to do can be done from mind control to playing in the big bang to altering the fundamental laws of the cosmos. Whether this extends to the philosophically confuzzling areas of omnipotence is a big question that no amount of shown feats can prove it.

More interesting to me is the question of "what do they do". We know that the Q seem to have some role in keeping a Universe full of temporal and spatial anomalies somewhat straight, but beyond that.....what? Does anyone here know?

[Kobold-Bard]

They don't have a specific purpose I don't think. They aren't guardians of reality or something, they're just creatures (that were once like humans IIRC) tht have evolved the racial trait of functional omnipotence. They can use their power however they please, as long as the Q Continuum approves.

And didn't that suicidal Q turn Voyager into a Christmas Tree ornament?

[Yora]

The ability to transport things through space and time I do not dispute. I think he really moved the Enterprise to the Delta Quadrant to see the Borg and he really brought Picard to the far past of Earth. This is a quite impressive power all in itself, but nothing that can't be done with a random space anomaly and polaryzing the deflector dish.
Reviving people who are beyond help by federation technology also is quite impressive, but then TNG medicine actually seems to be more primitive than medicine in 2012.

When he gave Picard a chance to change his life, I think that was all an illusion. After all, almost everything he does is to teach lessons, even if it's in his own unique way. It's been some time so I am not quite sure how that episode was edited, but to me it seemed a lot like it was all taking place in Picards head.
Now moving a moon is impressive, but I don't remember when he did that.

And with the later Voager episodes... okay, I admit, I am applying inconsistend standards here: But I think the writers of the later seasons of Voyager had no idea what they were doing and only very limited understanding of the Star Trek lore. Just take the Borg. Everything that made the Borg interesting as TNGs enemies was almost entirely absent in Voyager. And yes, in an objective debate this argument doesn't hold any water, but for me personally Q should be interpreted by his actions in TNG.
To repeat my statement I make a lot: I really don't like multi-writer franchises, because just of these inconsistencies. :smallannoyed:

The TNG Q is a very strange being. He is irritating and abusive, but he seems to have genuinly good itentions. He keeps pestering Picard because he thinks Picard is one of the very few people with the intelligence and wisdom to be able to think in greater dimensions, who is also in a position of high reputation within his society and has the resources to really make a difference. He is the middleman for Q to teach a greater understanding of the universe to the galactic civilizations. What Q really wants to teach them is never really revealed, but I assume because that's a process that may take generations and Qs really just beginning.
However, he's not wasting his time with species that will never be able to evolve to a higher state of mind and thinking, so he's not doing the work for them. But as he describes it himself, he wants to prevent the potential of humans not to be wasted by for example being destroyed by the Borg while being so close to begin the next step in their evolution, so he occasionally gives them some hints what they need to do. But they have to figure it out themselves.

It's really quite similar to the Vorlons in Babylon 5, but even more confusing and never really became a major theme of the show.

[Tavar]

Yes, if you assume that he lies, then he lies. Granted, this is counter to authorial intent and the established character, but if that's really what you want to believe, okay, I guess.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, if you assume that he lies, then he lies. Granted, this is counter to authorial intent and the established character, but if that's really what you want to believe, okay, I guess.

Maybe his illusionary power extends to rupturing the fourth wall and tricking the authors into believing he is omnipotent?:smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

Actually, it's quite simple, his illusions have 200% reality.:smallamused:

[factotum]

There's an episode of TNG (forget which one) where one of the Enterprise crewpeople turns out to be half-Q, and she's able to completely clear a planet's atmosphere of some sort of poison that was spreading through it without any apparent effort. I also think that you're dismissing Q's known ability to throw the Enterprise 7,000 light years in an instant rather too readily--doing stuff like that is *hard* in the Star Trek universe unless you have a pre-existing wormhole or similar phenomenon, and there's no evidence there was any such thing in the area they were in at the time.

[Parra]

There's an episode of TNG (forget which one) where one of the Enterprise crewpeople turns out to be half-Q, and she's able to completely clear a planet's atmosphere of some sort of poison that was spreading through it without any apparent effort.

She was a passenger, but yes she could do that stuff. She also used her Q powers to make Riker fall in love with her, but then reversed it because it wasnt him really falling in love with her, just her making him fall in love (or something to that effect)

[Sean Mirrsen]

Q's powers seem to be "anything he can get away with". Which, as long as the Continuum isn't watching, is pretty much anything at all. This combined with his statement that "The trial never ended" (or something to that effect) in All Good Things indirectly implies that he was at least partially behind a lot of the outlandish stuff the Enterprise crew has encountered over the series. So, he's pretty darn powerful.

That's not to mention that he was able to cross Multiverse barriers and appear as essentially himself in a completely different show (tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/FriendshipIsMagic-Antagonists).

[SoC175]

And the voyager crew sneaking up on and using weapons to threaten several other Q.
Well, it has been pointed out that the "reality" the crew (and we viewers) saw wasn't the same reality the Qs perceive, only what our puny mortal mines fabricate to let us cope with the Q-reality. So no-one, not even the crew actually truly know what they were doing and how they were doing it, only what their brains imagined them doing.

Also do not forget Q's reaction to meeting Guinan. He said that she , "is not what she appears to be" and offered to remove her from the ship. Her reaction seemed as if she was about to resist this removal. Was it a futile gesture born or of defiance or was she really expecting to be able to resist Q?

[Ravens_cry]

Of course the episode "Q and the Grey" in Voyager is pretty horrible in the way it depicts a Q being cut off from her powers by some temporal doohickeys related to the Q civil war. And the voyager crew sneaking up on and using weapons to threaten several other Q. You could claim they were temporarily given Riker-esque Q powers but the depiction in that episode seems to contradict the rest so heavily as to ruin continuity.

To be fair, the crew was armed, in the words of the Lady Q, "our weapons". That makes it barely bearable, like a mortal wielding Zeus's thunderbolts.

[Traab]

Well, it has been pointed out that the "reality" the crew (and we viewers) saw wasn't the same reality the Qs perceive, only what our puny mortal mines fabricate to let us cope with the Q-reality. So no-one, not even the crew actually truly know what they were doing and how they were doing it, only what their brains imagined them doing.

Also do not forget Q's reaction to meeting Guinan. He said that she , "is not what she appears to be" and offered to remove her from the ship. Her reaction seemed as if she was about to resist this removal. Was it a futile gesture born or of defiance or was she really expecting to be able to resist Q?

She was always a mystery on that show. We know that she is either very long lived, or a time traveler of some sort, because in the episode where they found Datas buried head, we learn she was there on earth back in the days of the old west.

[pffh]

She was always a mystery on that show. We know that she is either very long lived, or a time traveler of some sort, because in the episode where they found Datas buried head, we learn she was there on earth back in the days of the old west.

She also claims that her people were destroyed by the Borg.

[Ravens_cry]

She also claims that her people were destroyed by the Borg.
Which incidentally occurred before they were encountered by the Enterprise-D through Q's intervention. For what was sup[posed to be the Federation's first time I might add.
It is very confusing.

[Omergideon]

Well, it has been pointed out that the "reality" the crew (and we viewers) saw wasn't the same reality the Qs perceive, only what our puny mortal mines fabricate to let us cope with the Q-reality. So no-one, not even the crew actually truly know what they were doing and how they were doing it, only what their brains imagined them doing.



I know this, but to be frank I find it bull in this case. When being shown a picture of the continuum like in Death Wish the whole "your perception of our realm" thing works. Maybe. A bit. But to really interact with a world you must be able to percieve it is some meaningful fashion. But the civil war metaphor reality includes them doing things that only make sense if the picture itself is meaningful, like sneaking around or a chained up Q. If the reality is so far removed from that picture that the picture is worthless (which has to be true if the Q claim anything resembling omnipotence), then the idea that Voyager crew members can sneak up on a Q, hold them hostage and negotiate sensibly is laughable. Either the picture is truer than we think (contradicting the nature of a Q) or the crews actions make no sense without a few tons of fan wanking.

And as a note, the crew girl was a full q, child of 2 other q killed by mandate of the continuum who had become humanish, and needed only a little prompting to become able to do crazy things. And was warping reality subconciously, demonstrating the power is innate in some way and not artificial.

[Tavar]

Which incidentally occurred before they were encountered by the Enterprise-D through Q's intervention. For what was sup[posed to be the Federation's first time I might add.
It is very confusing.
Quite possible that they weren't members of the Federation at the time.

As for the Voyager thing...
http://www.stevepugh.net/VTT/images/p1.jpg

[Ravens_cry]

Quite possible that they weren't members of the Federation at the time.

It wouldn't explain why the Enterprise-D crew would know nothing about the Borg, to the point of not even been aware of their existence.
"Yeah, there is a species devouring group mind that practically wiped out your bartenders race from existence. No need to know about that though."


As for the Voyager thing...
http://www.stevepugh.net/VTT/images/p1.jpg
Perhaps, though there was a few bright spots in that otherwise disappointing series. The Doctor is still one of my favourite characters.

[Kish]

As other people have said, even if you ignore Voyager (as you should), the Q are omnipotent. Basic logic tells us no one can prove a negative, so you can always assert that they aren't actually omnipotent, they can actually only do the specific things they've done onscreen, and anything they haven't demonstrated they can do they can't do...but really, there comes a time where "accept that the text is not as you would prefer it to be" is a better choice than "stretch as necessary to keep arguing with the text."

[Prime32]

Well, it has been pointed out that the "reality" the crew (and we viewers) saw wasn't the same reality the Qs perceive, only what our puny mortal mines fabricate to let us cope with the Q-reality. So no-one, not even the crew actually truly know what they were doing and how they were doing it, only what their brains imagined them doing.IIRC there was a novel where the TNG cast travel into the Continuum and Data has to be shut down because his android mind can see it properly and is overloading as a result.


Also do not forget Q's reaction to meeting Guinan. He said that she , "is not what she appears to be" and offered to remove her from the ship. Her reaction seemed as if she was about to resist this removal. Was it a futile gesture born or of defiance or was she really expecting to be able to resist Q?Maybe he was worried about the part of Guinan inside the Nexus? :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

IIRC there was a novel where the TNG cast travel into the Continuum and Data has to be shut down because his android mind can see it properly and is overloading as a result.

'IQ'. Picard interprets it as a Dixon Hill scenario, and pulls a gun from his coat by force of will, or something that looks like a gun to him.
The novel is also where I found one of my favourite phrases,from an encounter with some Klingons, "It's not a retreat, it's an advance to the rear."

[The Glyphstone]

'IQ'. Picard interprets it as a Dixon Hill scenario, and pulls a gun from his coat by force of will, or something that looks like a gun to him.
The novel is also where I found one of my favourite phrases,from an encounter with some Klingons, "It's not a retreat, it's an advance to the rear."

Attributed to the great Klingon general Ol'vr Ps'myth, right?:smallcool:

[Ravens_cry]

Attributed to the great Klingon general Ol'vr Ps'myth, right?:smallcool:

If I remember correctly, it was Q who said it, and he did not attribute it.
And yes, I perceive what abuse you have wrought to the poor apostrophe.

[The Glyphstone]

If I remember correctly, it was Q who said it, and he did not attribute it.
And yes, I perceive what abuse you have wrought to the poor apostrophe.

Not my fault, it owed me money.

[Ravens_cry]

Not my fault, it owed me money.
I would accuse you of usury for such rampant interest then.

[Gnoman]

It wouldn't explain why the Enterprise-D crew would know nothing about the Borg, to the point of not even been aware of their existence.
"Yeah, there is a species devouring group mind that practically wiped out your bartenders race from existence. No need to know about that though."


From what I understood, only Picard knew anything about Guinan, and it was never really made clear what he did know. She was a very secretive character by design.

[Traab]

It wouldn't explain why the Enterprise-D crew would know nothing about the Borg, to the point of not even been aware of their existence.
"Yeah, there is a species devouring group mind that practically wiped out your bartenders race from existence. No need to know about that though."

Perhaps, though there was a few bright spots in that otherwise disappointing series. The Doctor is still one of my favourite characters.

Well, it was kinda pointless to guinan to tell them, "Hey guys, there is a species of genocidal cyborgs out there that seek to assimilate all life and technology. Of course they are more than 70 years away in that direction moving at maximum warp, and thus no real threat, but I just thought id mention it. Oh, and if anyone locates something described as "fluidic space" shoot him, close the opening, and start praying."

[factotum]

Of course they are more than 70 years away in that direction moving at maximum warp

They were only 2 years at maximum warp in the episode where Q transported the Enterprise to a Borg cube. That's close enough to maybe warn people!

[Ravens_cry]

Well, it was kinda pointless to guinan to tell them, "Hey guys, there is a species of genocidal cyborgs out there that seek to assimilate all life and technology. Of course they are more than 70 years away in that direction moving at maximum warp, and thus no real threat, but I just thought id mention it. Oh, and if anyone locates something described as "fluidic space" shoot him, close the opening, and start praying."
It wouldn't be Guinan telling them, it would be Starfleet, considering the Enterprise-B (with Kirk aboard) (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Generations) were involved in trying to rescue her races refugee ships from an energy ribbon.

[Tavar]

Guinan may have had her reasons. Archer certainly didn't, though.

[Kish]

While I'm all in favor of ignoring Voyager, as I said, I cannot agree with a "things to be ignored" line that shuts out Voyager but not Enterprise or the (blergh) TNG movies.

[Ravens_cry]

Guinan may have had her reasons. Archer certainly didn't, though.
Wasn't Guinan just a kid at the time?
What's wrong is I am pretty sure the fact the refugees were running from the Borg (it's been half a decade since I watched Generations) in their distress call to the Enterpise-B, and even if it wasn't, Starfleet would be certain to ask the ones who survived "So, what were you running from before you encountered this space energy ribbon 'Nexus' thing?"