[3.5] So did I apply this template correctly?

[Particle_Man]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Half-Red Dragon Gelatinous Cube!

I assumed that the traits would be dragon not ooze, and that one could add int to a non-int creature when applying a template.

Size/Type: Large Dragon

Hit Dice: 4d12+36 (62 hp)

Initiative: -5

Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares)/ Fly 30 ft. (average maneuverability)

Armor Class: 8 (-1 size, -5 Dex, +4 Natural), touch 4, flat-footed 8

Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+11

Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d6 + 4 plus 1d6 acid)

Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d6 + 4 plus 1d6 acid)/Bite +1 melee (1d8 + 2 + 1d6 acid)

Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.

Special Attacks: Acid, engulf, paralysis, breath weapon (30 foot cone of Fire 1/day 6d8, reflex DC 21 for half)

Special Qualities: immunity to electricity, fire, sleep and paralysis, dragon traits, transparent, darkvision 60’, lowlight vision.

Saves: Fort +10, Ref -4, Will -4

Abilities: Str 18, Dex 1, Con 28, Int 2, Wis 1, Cha 3

Skills: Listen -1, Move Silently -1, Survival -4

Feats: Flyby Attack, Hover

Environment: Underground

Organization: Solitary

Challenge Rating: 5

Treasure: 1/10th coins, 50% goods (no nonmetal or nonstone), 50% items (no nonmetal or nonstone)

Alignment: Always Chaotic evil

Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large); 13-24 HD (Huge)

Level Adjustment: -

[The Mentalist]

Ummm...


Ewww...

But yes... it does appear you did it right...

[Flickerdart]

The creature might be a Dragon, but it's still Mindless, because adding a value to a nonability doesn't change it. As a mindless creature it will have no feats or skills.

Its base attack is +3, not +7.

If you really had your heart set on those feats and skills, applying the Sentry ooze (Dungeonscape, I believe) template will give it a proper Intelligence score.

[Darrin]

If you really had your heart set on those feats and skills, applying the Sentry ooze (Dungeonscape, I believe) template will give it a proper Intelligence score.

Sort of. Sentry Ooze adds +2 Int, which has the same problems as adding Int via Half-Dragon. However, the Sentry Ooze template says it removes the "mindless" quality, so I assume that means it changes "Int: --" to "Int: 0", and then adds +2. (The designers were never entirely clear on how templates affect ability scores with "--" instead of a number). In any case, it's pretty clear the intent was to give oozes the equivalent of an animal-like intelligence.

From there, you can add Half-Dragon for a fire-breathing flying ooze. Add Spellwarped (MMIII) for Int +4, then Phrenic for another Int +2, and you've got Int 10, average human(oid) intelligence.

You can also give oozes an Int by adding the Fiendish or Pseudonatural template, which gives them a minimum of Int: 3. However, most Int-boosting templates can't be added to outsiders, so you've got to switch the type to something else... I think Half-Dragon will still work, as will Half-Fey or Corrupted by the Abyss (type changes to aberration).

[Taelas]

The creature's type is "Dragon (Augmented Ooze)".

Since it is a Dragon, it has at least 1 Int. It does not have the Mindless quality, as that is an Ooze trait, and it has Dragon traits instead. (It also lacks all other Ooze traits, such as blindsight, acid damage to objects, and immunity to critical hits and flanking.)

Therefore, its Int score should be 3.

[Sudain]

The creature's type is "Dragon (Augmented Ooze)".

Since it is a Dragon, it has at least 1 Int. It does not have the Mindless quality, as that is an Ooze trait, and it has Dragon traits instead. (It also lacks all other Ooze traits, such as blindsight, acid damage to objects, and immunity to critical hits and flanking.)

Therefore, its Int score should be 3.

While I'm curious to see if you argument holds(templates replace versus stack or not) - here is the more important question. Can the DM describe it well enough to bring it alive?

[kardar233]

Didn't someone have an avatar of a Half-Dragon Gelatinous Cube a while back?

[Taelas]

While I'm curious to see if you argument holds(templates replace versus stack or not) - here is the more important question. Can the DM describe it well enough to bring it alive?

Feel free to check page 306 of the MM where it describes the Augmented subtype.

kardar233: Yes. HalfDragonCube's still around, I think (though I don't know if he still posts in this particular subforum).

[Roguenewb]

I guess you can do this thing you've done.... Not entirely sure why you'd want to.

Scratch that: dissolved remains of a dragon. And.....I have a new adventure to write up. Bog graveyard in which a dragon died, full of things that have integrated bits of dragon into them.

[Flickerdart]

The creature's type is "Dragon (Augmented Ooze)".

Since it is a Dragon, it has at least 1 Int. It does not have the Mindless quality, as that is an Ooze trait, and it has Dragon traits instead. (It also lacks all other Ooze traits, such as blindsight, acid damage to objects, and immunity to critical hits and flanking.)

Therefore, its Int score should be 3.
Nowhere in the Dragon type does it say that Dragons have at least 1 intelligence.

[Taelas]

Nowhere in the Dragon type does it say that Dragons have at least 1 intelligence.

Dragons are not Mindless, thus they have an Int score, thus they have at least 1 Int.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The dragon traits do not specify that a dragon always has an Int score. Adding Half-Dragon to a mindless creature does not make it stop being mindless by virtue of its type. You cannot cast Bear's Endurance on a Skeleton to give it a Con score, and adding a +2 Int template to a mindless creature does not result in a creature with an Int score.

The Rules Compendium has this to say:
Nonabilities
Some creatures don’t have certain ability scores. These creatures
don’t have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability
score altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other
effects of nonabilities are detailed below.


Let's say a creature's Int score is a basket with a number of eggs in it equal to that creature's ability score. Half-Dragon adds two eggs to this basket. A mindless creature has no basket at all. When adding Half-Dragon those eggs just get dropped on the ground instead of going into a basket. This does not result in a basket with two or more eggs in it, you just waste your eggs. I'm still finding plastic eggs in the back yard, and a Half-Dragon Ooze/Vermin is still mindless.

[ka_bna]

Organization: Solitary
Change it into solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring) and you're golden. That, or apply the Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/creature-swarm-template) template.

[Larkas]

Feel free to check page 306 of the MM where it describes the Augmented subtype.

The SRD says this about the Augmented Subtype:


Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

But the Half-Dragon entry says this:


A half-dragon uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Nothing is said about the creature losing its former type's traits; hence, they must stay. A Half-Red Dragon Gelatinous Cube is, indeed, Mindless. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, usually being the key. This is an exception to the rule.

[Particle_Man]

Change it into solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring) and you're golden. That, or apply the Swarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/creature-swarm-template) template.

I think I love you. And I hear Tetris music. :smallcool:

Sounds like the mindless/not debate is still raging. I will argue in favour of "not" (whether it is RAW or not) because I want my Hover, dammit. :smallsmile:

[Taelas]

The dragon traits do not specify that a dragon always has an Int score. Adding Half-Dragon to a mindless creature does not make it stop being mindless by virtue of its type. You cannot cast Bear's Endurance on a Skeleton to give it a Con score, and adding a +2 Int template to a mindless creature does not result in a creature with an Int score.
It does not need to. The augmented subtype states that creatures have their current type's traits but their former type's features. "Mindless" is a trait of the Ooze type; one that the Dragon type does not possess. Thus, Dragons are not mindless, and has at least 1 Int.


The SRD says this about the Augmented Subtype:

But the Half-Dragon entry says this:

Nothing is said about the creature losing its former type's traits; hence, they must stay. A Half-Red Dragon Gelatinous Cube is, indeed, Mindless. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, usually being the key. This is an exception to the rule.
The two quotes are not in conflict. The gelatinous cube does not have any statistic or special ability which states it is mindless; that is a function of its type, which is altered as per half-dragon's instructions ("The creature’s type changes to dragon."). Any template which alters type uses the augmented subtype, in this case, dragon (augmented ooze); thus, we use the features of its former type (ooze) and the traits of its current type (dragon).

Said dragon cannot be mindless, as it does not have the mindless trait. Anything that is not mindless has at least 1 Int. Thus, it must have 3 Int.

[Larkas]

The two quotes are not in conflict. The gelatinous cube does not have any statistic or special ability which states it is mindless; that is a function of its type, which is altered as per half-dragon's instructions ("The creature’s type changes to dragon."). Any template which alters type uses the augmented subtype, in this case, dragon (augmented ooze); thus, we use the features of its former type (ooze) and the traits of its current type (dragon).

Said dragon cannot be mindless, as it does not have the mindless trait. Anything that is not mindless has at least 1 Int. Thus, it must have 3 Int.

Indeed, there is no conflict between them. One might be just an envisioned exception to the other. On half-dragon, the SRD says:


Special Qualities: A half-dragon has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. A half-dragon has immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and an additional immunity based on its dragon variety.

If the creature got all the traits of the base creature, why not simply say it? Dragons have, as traits, both darkvision, low-light vision and those sleep and paralysis immunities. But suppose the SRD is just listing what the creature gets by inheriting its new type's traits. Nowhere in the template does it say the creature is proficient with its natural weapons, but that is part of the Dragon type's traits. The way I see it, it is saying that the creature does not gain the new type's traits. Instead, it gains THESE specific abilities.

Playing the devil's advocate here, though, on the instructions of adding templates, the SRD does say:


If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

To be honest, the template is not explicit about it. It seems to be indicating that the original creature's traits are not lost, but you can't really be sure about it.

Bottomline, I'm not sure if it does remove the original traits or not. I would keep them, if only for flavor reasons. Szar might be right about this, though.

[Taelas]

Indeed, there is no conflict between them. One might be just an envisioned exception to the other. On half-dragon, the SRD says:



If the creature got all the traits of the base creature, why not simply say it? Dragons have, as traits, both darkvision, low-light vision and those sleep and paralysis immunities. But suppose the SRD is just listing what the creature gets by inheriting its new type's traits. Nowhere in the template does it say the creature is proficient with its natural weapons, but that is part of the Dragon type's traits. The way I see it, it is saying that the creature does not gain the new type's traits. Instead, it gains THESE specific abilities.
The rules often have these redundancies. All of those are special qualities, which the template has a section for, so it goes out of the way to mention them (even though it is technically unnecessary). Proficiency with natural weapons isn't a special quality, and there is no section in a template to include them, but would you claim a half-dragon lacks proficiency with his natural weapons as a result?


Playing the devil's advocate here, though, on the instructions of adding templates, the SRD does say:


To be honest, the template is not explicit about it. It seems to be indicating that the original creature's traits are not lost, but you can't really be sure about it.

Bottomline, I'm not sure if it does remove the original traits or not. I would keep them, if only for flavor reasons. Szar might be right about this, though.
Yes. Since half-dragon does not say otherwise, it follows the rules laid out there.

All in all, though, it is a rather minor point, and even accepting that argument, the matter is still not particularly clear. The end result really depends on whether a nonability in Int causes the mindless trait, or the mindless trait causes Int to be a nonability. In the first case, the half-dragon gelatinous cube must be mindless (and so must possess the mindless trait regardless of which traits it possesses otherwise), since it has a nonability in Int, but in the second case, it cannot be mindless, since it does not have the trait, thus it can't have a nonability in Int, which is then changed to 1 instead of a void.

Both claims can be supported by the rules, but I find the second case to be more logical (even though the change in Int score is a little... unorthodox). I wouldn't dispute a DM making the first their call, though, especially since there are creatures that are mindless where their type does not explicitly give them the trait. Undead comes to mind. Where an Ooze is mindless as the null assumption, undead are not, but many undead are mindless. Even undead makes mention of this under their entry, though, and I am almost certain there are no examples of mindless creatures of a type that does not at least mention the possibility in the type's entry.

[Jack_Simth]

You can also give oozes an Int by adding the Fiendish or Pseudonatural template, which gives them a minimum of Int: 3. However, most Int-boosting templates can't be added to outsidersThe Fiendish Creature template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm) doesn't change the type to Outsider:
Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Fiendish creatures encountered on the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype.