How do devils kill each other?

[FearlessGnome]

Baator. For all the Lawfulness, there's a lot of infighting. While much of it is indirect and political, there is clearly meant to be some physical violence between the devils who have risen through the ranks.

However... quite a lot of them have Regeneration 5/Good or Good&Silver. Good PCs can handle that for appropriate CR devils, but... how do they kill each other? Or do devils with CRs in the teens always subdue their opponent and then make sure they get demoted?

[tyckspoon]

I'd say they coup each other with a dose of Trollbane, but devils are generally immune to poison.. if it comes to it, Align Weapon is only a second-level spell and there's no restriction on making a weapon the 'wrong' alignment with it- a devil seeking to dispose of an enemy permanently might acquire a few Oils of Align Weapon (Good) or even Bless Weapon with which to do the job.

Although as far as power politics goes, beating an enemy unconscious and then dragging their body into some prominent place where everybody who's anybody can find out about it usually works to establish dominance, and there's often reasons you can't outright destroy your opponents anyway.

[bloodtide]

{{scrubbed}}

[kardar233]

You just need to get out of the video game gutter type of thinking.

Say Korg the Cornugon wants to kill Gloek the Gelugon. But, oh no Gloek has damage reduction 10/good and immunities and resistances and regeneration. And Korg can't use Good things as he is evil. Now a typical modern optimizing day player would just cry about how unfair this is and go sit in a corner and mumble how 'everyone should be able to be all alignments' or something about it being 'broken' that an Evil Devil can't use Good items and magic.

What does the Old School Player do? Korg attacks Gloek! Yes, he does not have the perfect mix of (cheating and rule breaking or bending) optimized abilities, but he does not care. He simply attacks. Will it take Korg a round or two more to kill Gloek then a super uber optimized paladin devil slayer would take....yes. But still Korg does not care.

And so what if something has a DR of 10.....all this tells a Old School Player is that they need to do ten more points of damage then 'normal'. Note also that energy attacks and magic by pass DR.

Korg still has plenty he can do. His lightning bolt can still hurt Gloek. And when he hits, he can still stun. He can take another feat other then the ones listen in the MM too.... And he can attack with help.

And for the sneakiest way of all....Korg could always trick a good person into killing Gloek for him...Muhahahahahaha.

Ummmm.... regeneration isn't negated by anything except Graymantle, Trollbane and the things specified in the description. So, no, Korg can't actually kill Gloek.

[FearlessGnome]

Damage Reduction is one thing. That's 'inconvenient'. Regeneration means that just hitting the guy with your pitch fork will never kill him. And for all the fancy spell-likes they get, none of them deal Good damage.

[Taelas]

Most of them do not have regeneration. Only the top tier Baatezu do (gelugons, cornugons, or pit fiends). There are also some lower ones in MM2 which has (advespa, amnizu, and malebranche), but they all take normal damage from acid, holy weapons, and anything that deals holy damage, and MM2 was never really that consistent with anything else, anyway.

I am unaware of any other Baatezu that have regeneration than those, in fact--the vast majority (hamatula, erinyes, barbazu, lemures, and osyluths--the other Baatezu in the MM) don't have it. Kytons have regeneration 2, but they aren't Baatezu.

[bloodtide]

Ummmm.... regeneration isn't negated by anything except Graymantle, Trollbane and the things specified in the description. So, no, Korg can't actually kill Gloek.

Oh, well guess I was thinking of 2E regeneration that made sense.

Well, guess regeneration is just another thing 3E messed up. By RAW there is absolutely no way for a devil to kill another devil that has regeneration. You you'd have to either accept the pointless 3E ruling, or make a house rule.

[Flickerdart]

I'm sorry, what? Why would the masters of planning and treachery just run at one another with swords drawn and see who can beat the other one into the bloodiest pulp?

[holywhippet]

Their regeneration doesn't work against any spell with the good descriptor. A wish spell could simulate a spell with that effect. Otherwise they could acquire a magical item that could cast the same effect. Technically they could even get a weapon with a holy enchantment - they'd just need someone with a good alignment to make it for them.

[Flickerdart]

A [Good] spell cast with Wish would not have the [Good] descriptor, because Wish does not have the [Good] descriptor. Only the Range, Effect, Duration and Saving Throw of Wish change with the effect selected by the caster.

[Morithias]

Fiendish Codex 2, page 56.

"Diabolical law specifies the circumstances under which devils can legally attack on another. Specifically a superior can always punish a direct inferior by any means, physical force included. In addition, devils can do any kind of violence to other devils whose rank they exceed by at least nine stations. Any other assault is illegal. Even two devils that wish to enter into battle with one another cannot normally do so."

Short answer...they don't.

[Kobold-Bard]

They could use UMD to Emulate having a Good alignment, letting them use Good aligned weapons etc. without trouble.

[holywhippet]

They could use UMD to Emulate having a Good alignment, letting them use Good aligned weapons etc. without trouble.

I thought about that, but if you check their stats: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm you'll see none of them seem to have UMD.

[Kobold-Bard]

I thought about that, but if you check their stats: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm you'll see none of them seem to have UMD.

A lot of them also have Alertness as a feat. I'm assuming these hypothetical Devils will be smart enough to know that UMD will be too useful a tool to pass up, just in case they do ever need to fight their own kind.

[demigodus]

Well Holy Water does acid damage apparently, not holy damage or some such for some reason. So that doesn't work.

That leans charm, suggestion, dominate being cast on a good commoner, handing them a holy sword, and taking them to your foe you beat unconscious.


Oh, well guess I was thinking of 2E regeneration that made sense.

Well, guess regeneration is just another thing 3E messed up. By RAW there is absolutely no way for a devil to kill another devil that has regeneration. You you'd have to either accept the pointless 3E ruling, or make a house rule.

Didn't you just get through insulting "a typical modern optimizing day player" about how they would just go cry in a corner when faced with a challenge? Throwing up your hands and saying you want to change the rules... isn't any more mature an action.

Yes, a devil can't go pick up a random great sword, stroll over to another devil and beat it to death without fail. That kinda isn't how you are supposed to play a devil. Also, 3.5 regeneration does make sense. It might not follow the rules you prefer, but it follows a consistent rule set.

[tyckspoon]

I thought about that, but if you check their stats: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm you'll see none of them seem to have UMD.

Doesn't matter all that much; there's not anything actually stopping a demon from using Align Weapon (Good) or Bless Weapon or smashing a vial of holy water on his victim's head as a coup de grace (well, aside from that I don't know if Holy Water is ever actually stated to do aligned damage.) They can even wield a Holy-enchanted weapon if they have to; it won't reject them or leap out of their hand or anything, they just have to suck up the negative level for long enough to execute their enemy.

The only real difficulty is that that kind of stuff is probably a bit hard to come by on the lower planes, but any devil of note ought to have a mortal contact or three who could help acquire the necessary items.

[awa]

suffocation. Outsiders need to breath and regeneration does not heal suffocation damge. beat him unconscious then let him drown in a puddle of his own blood.

[holywhippet]

Doesn't matter all that much; there's not anything actually stopping a demon from using Align Weapon (Good) or Bless Weapon or smashing a vial of holy water on his victim's head as a coup de grace (well, aside from that I don't know if Holy Water is ever actually stated to do aligned damage.)

Thing is, even though many devils have a lot of spell like abilities, I can't see anything in the rules which would specifically allow them to cast spells. I suppose that is just for the generic ones though, specific ones could take class levels.

[Dancingdeath]

Violently?

[dgnslyr]

Sure, it'll be tough to actually kill another devil, but beating one into an unconscious pulp is certainly within the realm of possibility. Shackling up his unconscious mass and chaining it up for your underlings to torment seems plausible enough.

[Baldin]

Failry easy tbh.

With regeneration you can still be knocked unconcious. Thus devil 1 knocks devil 2 unconcious, after this he can just suffocate devil 2 and thus kill him.

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.

cheers
baldin

EDIT: Awa already states this i just saw=]

[Acanous]

If two creatures share a damage reduction type, damage dealt by their natural attacks ignores that damage reduction. It's in the rules for Damage Reduction, and is why Paladins don't just get armor with DR/Good enchanted on it before heading into the lower planes.

So how do devils fight? Bare handed.

[Doorhandle]

Sure, it'll be tough to actually kill another devil, but beating one into an unconscious pulp is certainly within the realm of possibility. Shackling up his unconscious mass and chaining it up for your underlings to torment seems plausible enough.

Not thinking fiendishly enough. Leave him in an acid pit or something along the same lines, so that the loser forever shut into an unending cycle of suffering.

Also yeah, outsiders still need to breathe. This is probably so that they can throttle unseemly minions, so a good grapple and garrotte would work fine.

[Baldin]

Acanous is right here, ill post the text from SRD:

A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

So basicly they can also use their weapons

[Ernir]

If one devil really needs to kill another, there are ways, as has been mentioned.

But I'd expect most conflicts between not Devils to be resolved with words and plans and subterfuge, not by slugging it out. Defeat that leaves the other humiliated or reduced in rank should often be just as (if not more) effective than just killing him.


Ummmm.... regeneration isn't negated by anything except Graymantle, Trollbane and the things specified in the description. So, no, Korg can't actually kill Gloek.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with "old school vs. new school" or "breaking rules" and a whole bunch of other flammable words...

[Taelas]

Acanous is right here, ill post the text from SRD:

A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.

So basicly they can also use their weapons

This does not punch through their regeneration, only their damage reduction.

[Emperor Tippy]

A devil's natural weapons are treated as Evil and Lawful weapons for the purposes of damage reduction. A Pit Fiend has, for example, DR 15 Good and Silver.

If two Pit Fiends wailed on each other then the damage of their attacks would be reduced by 15 points each.

[Leon]

Hire a yugoloth to do the job

[Yora]

Regeneration does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.
Even more:

Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration.
I don't play high level much, but it shouldn't bee too hard to do.

[QuidEst]

Yeah… pile on negative levels or knock Constitution down. And that's being straightforward about it. I think the fact that they have such a hard time of killing one another is why there are still so many. If it were as easy as using a sword, there wouldn't be any left.

[Taelas]

Actually, devils have a pretty steady influx of new recruits thanks to petitioners.

The Blood War makes it a necessity.

[willpell]

This is a thought-provoking topic. Personally, while I kind of like the idea that using violence to get rid of your enemies just doesn't work in Hell (by my reckoning, Lower Planes creatures unleash More Dakka the way we human beings shake hands or get coffee together; they're so steeped in Evil that bashing someone's skull open is a compliment by their standards), I also would be somewhat inclined to houserule the regeneration thing; Damage Reduction alone should suffice when it comes to ignoring each other's attacks. I'd say treat the regeneration trigger as "silver" instead of "silver and good", but that's just my opinion.


A devil's natural weapons are treated as Evil and Lawful weapons for the purposes of damage reduction. A Pit Fiend has, for example, DR 15 Good and Silver.

I could have sworn there's a rule somewhere that says anyone who has damage reduction also automatically overcomes their own damage reduction and that of other identical creatures. I can't find this rule now but I thought for sure it was an inherent aspect of damage reduction, that in having it you also automatically had the ability to bypass it.

[Red_Dog]

I'm just going to point out few things=>

DR => Silver weapons knock 1 point of dmg. That's it. Get a silver weapon, we are done here it seems.

Regeneration => See above. Its also not as common as you'd think.

Seriously, why wouldn't a devil who is hell-bent on an assassination would not get a neat silver weapon for him/herself?O_o
***Some higher up devils=>such as Horned Devil, do have an annoying silver & good regen, but those devils usually aren't killed by other devils, even thru assassination attempts. They get demoted[see below] instead. Than their rival is promoted[no balance change in grand scale]. And than they might be killed, if a point is needed proving.***

And finally *drum rolls*. DEMOTION.

Demotion [and not death, if a devil is killed, 200 some years later, him/she reforms and goes about his/her day, adding a person who killed him/her and that person's family/town/pets/etc. to the "I'm going to murder all of you, you will wish someone unnamed you after I'm done with you" list.] is what every devil ever in existence is scared poop-less of. A higher level devil can demote a lower level devil[after necessary paperwork of course]. So a Devil need not to kill another devil, when that's not what the other devil is afraid of.

================================================== ==>
Also, =>
Actually, devils have a pretty steady influx of new recruits thanks to petitioners.

The Blood War makes it a necessity.

That's actually an issue. Devils try as hard as they can to get new souls into 9hells. BUT, the reason they haven't won the blood war, is because there numbers are FAR lower than that of their adversaries. So all the influx is negated by constant death in a blood war.
It is also a time game, as much as its a numbers game. It takes some odd 100-200 years to make a "useful" devil out a lemur. It takes about as long for a devil to reform.

This in conjunction means that their overall numbers are actually quite steady.
^^

Bloodwar fluff[or most of the outerplane fluff], is one of the BEST fluffs written in D&D[IMHO] and one of reasons why I like playing in "D&D setting" ^^. If only inner-plane fluff was 10% as good. Damn wish economy horse poop. >_>

^^

[Taelas]

Devils that die outside of Baator reform in 99 years. Devils slain on Baator stay dead (unless brought back to life via wish, true resurrection or similar magic).

And yes, the implication was that the influx was directed mainly towards the Blood War.

[Kobold-Bard]

Devils that die outside of Baator reform in 99 years. Devils slain on Baator stay dead (unless brought back to life via wish, true resurrection or similar magic).

...

I've seen this said before. What's the source of it?

[Knaight]

Well, guess regeneration is just another thing 3E messed up. By RAW there is absolutely no way for a devil to kill another devil that has regeneration. You you'd have to either accept the pointless 3E ruling, or make a house rule.

There's no way for a devil to kill another devil that has regeneration provided that their tactics remain on the level of "run and hit it with a mundane sword". Fortunately, this isn't a video game, programming constraints don't exist, and as such there are other options. Among these better, more sensible options involves the intelligent use of magic items. A few wands can end a fight pretty quickly, and a few options in particular are excellent.

Plane Shift: Tossing the enemy to several other planes is essentially a death sentence. There's the negative energy plane, which won't actually kill them but will leave them in an inanimate stupor for an eternity. There's the positive energy plane, which will kill them due to hit point overload, which regeneration is profoundly unhelpful to resist.

Flesh to Stone: Now they're a statue. Technically, they're a living statue, but until a Stone to Flesh shows up that isn't likely to actually matter. Some minor statue crushing, and that stops being a problem. Bonus points for having them mixed into plaster or similar.

Gate: Teleport is a fairly common SLA. Dimensional Anchor is something every imp can do. So, hit an enemy with dimensional anchor, Gate in something good that either can use a silver weapon, or has good aligned spells, and call it a day. I'm thinking that a high end Archon or Angel could pull this off in most all circumstances. Teleport comes in in getting out of the area. Toss the anchored demon a silver weapon prior to the fight, and it is reasonable to expect that it will be finished off with it. If they're weak enough, just leave them to a Holy Word or similar.

[Zaranthan]

As long as we're bandying about bad information, how about we dispel this idea that devils can't use [Good] weaponry.



Holy

A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.

Moderate evocation [good]; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy smite, creator must be good; Price +2 bonus.


I don't see anything in there stating that it doesn't function for an evil creature. It bestows a negative level, so that's a -1 to hit and a number of other obstacles, but that just means you don't pull it out until after you've pummeled your rival into unconsciousness. If Mostly Dead isn't enough for you, THEN you grab the sword and lop his head off with it.

[Gurgeh]

I've seen this said before. What's the source of it?
Fiendish Codex II. A good read if you plan on using devils in any of your campaigns.

And yeah, given the way that Baator works, any devils of relatively equal station (so a Gelugon and a Cornugon, for instance) are essentially forbidden from slugging it out personally. Devils enjoy violence, but the greatest motivation they have is not hatred of their enemies but fear or demotion. They follow the rules.

[Kobold-Bard]

Fiendish Codex II. A good read if you plan on using devils in any of your campaigns.

And yeah, given the way that Baator works, any devils of relatively equal station (so a Gelugon and a Cornugon, for instance) are essentially forbidden from slugging it out personally. Devils enjoy violence, but the greatest motivation they have is not hatred of their enemies but fear or demotion. They follow the rules.

Do you know if it applies to all Outsiders, or is it specifically for Devils.

[Steward]

Do you know if it applies to all Outsiders, or is it specifically for Devils.

It's a specific rule imposed by Asmodeus, the ruler of the devils. Doesn't apply to others, especially demons who kill each other at the drop of a hat.

as far as killing goes -- one idea from Fiendish Codex is that a devil who wants to kill another (powerful) devil leaves a map or something of that other devil's layer near where a paladin or another adventuring group might find it. that way the "good guys" will rub out their rival for them!

[Boci]

Damage Reduction is one thing. That's 'inconvenient'. Regeneration means that just hitting the guy with your pitch fork will never kill him.

I'm not sure if it works by raw, but someone pointed out that constantly damaging an unconcious creature could result in them dying of suffocation despite their regeneration.

[Taelas]

Do you know if it applies to all Outsiders, or is it specifically for Devils.

D'you mean regarding death? That is specific for devils. Demons are similar, though they do not have a time period listed for their cycle, and they reform from the raw chaos of the Abyss. They risk being reincarnated as lesser demons if slain outside the Abyss (or perhaps start over from the beginning--the book is intentionally unclear on how exactly it works). When slain within the Abyss, they die permanently.

This is from Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, incidentally.

[Red_Dog]

Szar_Lakol =>

Thanks for the 99 years/death inside hells correction. ^^

=================================================>

Also, if someone just looking for a way around the "regeneration rules" for fluff stuff?

Please, Address your attention to 3 metric tons of Save or DIE spells right over there...
Or better yet, to some NO save JUST DIE spells. Admitably, that pile is smaller, but still. [Funny enough, most lower level Devils, lower than say Barbed Devil, can be dispatched by Power Words for "drastic effect"]. Seriously, killing someone w/ regeneration isn't an issue => Just get UMD[remember, just because MM stats Devils this way, doesn't mean they all always are like that] and get an Appropriate Magic item to murder someone if you truly have to.

For added "awesome points", use Imprisonment! It is NOT technically killing, which means, it could be slip by Devil's bureaucracy and be technically correct - THE best kind of correct = ]

P.S. I though Devils were unique in 99 years rule, as I though ALL outsiders when died, merged with there plane, and than from that "stuff" New outsiders are "born".

[Calanon]

For added "awesome points", use Imprisonment! It is NOT technically killing, which means, it could be slip by Devil's bureaucracy and be technically correct - THE best kind of correct = ]

P.S. I though Devils were unique in 99 years rule, as I though ALL outsiders when died, merged with there plane, and than from that "stuff" New outsiders are "born".

Casting an Imprisonment spell on a non-convicted Devil in the nine hells would be viewed as an "Unlawful, Nonviolent act of assault" (Pretty much the same crime as spitting on someone) Sure you'd never get a harsh punishment for it but you would certainly stain your record which will hurt you in the long run... and thats how most Devils are in for "the Long run" :smalltongue:

Its the nine hells, cmon there is NOWAY you are getting through that solid brick wall of sheer harsh unforgiving law

[Flickerdart]

Its the nine hells, cmon there is NOWAY you are getting through that solid brick wall of sheer harsh unforgiving law
Actually, the devils would probably reward you if you ever found a loophole.

[Occasional Sage]

Actually, the devils would probably reward you if you ever found a loophole.

Sure. But given how long they've been refining the rules, nobody in a human Int,-range is gonna fine one.

[Flickerdart]

Eh, most devils are dumb compared to a Wizard above 10th level, and few have ranks in Knowledge Local, which is what makes laws happen.

[Steward]

True, most devils do not have high intelligence, but the ones that do make the rules do, right? The pit fiends from the Monster Manual have a listed Intelligence score of 26, as do paeliryons and most of the archdevils. And Asmodeus is described in Fiendish Codex II as knowing the law better even than the primordial gods who created them. He's been refining this stuff for millennia. If you do find a loophole, it's because he wanted it to be there, and I totally agree that someone able to find a loophole would be rewarded... unless he or she happened to tick off the wrong duke in the process!

[Flickerdart]

He's Lawful Evil, putting loopholes in laws is what he does for a living.

[Morithias]

Eh, most devils are dumb compared to a Wizard above 10th level, and few have ranks in Knowledge Local, which is what makes laws happen.

No.

In the infernal court cases, you make three checks. Diplomacy, Knowledge (PLANES), and Perform (acting).

To be blunt, even though 99% of all wizard have ranks in knowledge (planes) you're still screwed unless you happen to have a bard friend.

Down there the system is so corrupt a devil who knows the law less than you, but is more charismatic could still beat your soul into hell.

[Gurgeh]

Yeah, FCII is solely about Baator. Fiendish Codex I looks at demons and the Abyss in more detail.

The Book of Exalted Deeds gives a reasonable amount of information on the good-aligned outsiders (Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin) but nowhere near as much as the fiends get. As far as I can tell, there's next to no serious information about the NE-aligned Yugoloths, which is a bit disappointing really.

EDIT [second page, oh my!]: Yeah, PCs are not going to talk their way out of an infernal court without a great deal of resourcefulness and actually being on the right side of the law. Direct and literal contradiction of a law is not going to leave you with a leg to stand on (although it should be noted that the absolute prohibition on violence is about violence between devils and doesn't mention mortals either way).

Probably the best thing to remember when portraying fiends is the quintessential difference between demons and devils: demons are motivated by hatred, while devils are motivated by fear. Demons want to destroy the world, devils want to rule it.

A devil may well bend the rules until they're coming around from the opposite side, but it will never outright break them unless it is tricked or coerced into doing so.

[KillianHawkeye]

I could have sworn there's a rule somewhere that says anyone who has damage reduction also automatically overcomes their own damage reduction and that of other identical creatures. I can't find this rule now but I thought for sure it was an inherent aspect of damage reduction, that in having it you also automatically had the ability to bypass it.

This rule is actually different for different types of DR.
If you have DR/magic, your natural weapons only bypass DR/magic. Same goes for DR/epic.
If you have an alignment subtype, such as (Lawful) or (Evil), then your natural weapons and any weapon you wield will bypass that type of DR (DR/lawful or DR/evil, for example).
Creatures do not automatically overcome DR/bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. They must use an attack of the appropriate type. Same goes for special materials.
Nothing bypasses DR/- except things that completely ignore DR.


So, outsiders generally do not bypass their own damage reduction. This is basically because the multiverse is set up as a war between Good and Evil, Law and Chaos. Each side innately possesses the tools to harm their enemies (alignment-wise). This also kinda explains why nobody is winning the Blood War anytime soon. Demons and devils have as hard a time getting past each others' DR as they do their own.