[PF] Sneak Attack!

[grarrrg]

We've all seen the 3.5 builds that can get 18d6+ Sneak Attack dice through various combinations of classes/prestige/feats/etc...

What's the best we can do in Pathfinder?
For base Classes we have Rogue, Ninja, Alchemist (Arch), and Bard (Arch).
Ninja is a copy+paste Rogue, so it's one or the other.
Alchemist (Vivisectionist) levels count as Rogue levels, so it's effectively the same as taking Rogue, but you don't get Rogue Talents/Ninja Tricks, so we'll skip it.
Bard (Sandman) doesn't get any Sneak dice until level 5.
Rogue has the Knife Master Archetype, which upgrades Sneak dice to d8's instead (arguably, this only applies to Sneak dice gained from the Rogue class, but extra damage is extra damage!), pair with the Scout archetype, to get guaranteed Sneak Damage when Charging/Moving.

Rogue it is then!

For PrC's we are looking at classes that give Sneak dice every 2 levels (else we'd just take Rogue instead) and/or give the first Sneak die at 1st level (so we can dip and move on).

PrC options are:
Assassin 1, every 2 levels
Arcane Trickster 2, every 2 levels
Duelist +1 damage per level
Halfling Opportunist 2, every 2 levels
Inner Sea Pirate 1, every 3 levels
Master Spy 1, every 3 levels
Pain Taster 2, every 2 levels
Red Mantis Assassin 1, every 3 levels

Inner Sea Pirate, Master Spy, and Red Mantis Assassin are only good for the 1st level. Inner Sea Pirate requires Non-Lawful, Red Mantis requires Lawful Evil, so it's one or the other. Going with Inner Sea Pirate, as Red Mantis requires a LOT of feats for entry.
Arcane Trickster requires Casting, which would greatly slow our Sneak dice, so it's out.
Duelist is only useful if we wind up at a point where another level in any other class would NOT give +d6.
Halfling Opportunist must be Halfling.
Assassin must be Evil.

Rough build:
Rogue 5, +3d6
Inner Sea Pirate 1, +1d6
Assassin 1, +1d6
Master Spy 1, +1d6

From here, we have an even number of levels remaining, so we don't have to worry about including Duelist.
Our options are more Rogue, or Assassin, and/or up to 4 levels of Halfling Opportunist or Pain Taster.

Regardless of which class combinations, our Sneak Attack maxes out at 12d6. With the Precise Strike Teamwork feat, it's effectively 13d6.

There are 12 levels left to work with.
6 more levels of Rogue opens up Advanced Talents, of which there are some useful ones (Crippling Strike, Deadly Sneak). Can either take more Rogue for more Advanced Talents, or the Extra Rogue Talent feat.
8 more levels of Assassin gives Hide in Plain Sight
4 levels of Pain Taster restricts us to Slashing weapons or Whips, but we get Full Bab (with Fractional Bab this would get us to 16)
4 levels of Halfling Opportunist gives us +2 to all our Saves
Notably, 5 levels of Halfling Opportunist let us apply our Sneak Attack to ALL Attacks of Opportunity.

So which option(s) look best?
I'm somewhat fond of going all 5 levels of Halfling Opportunist. But what to take with it?

[Chained Birds]

Got to second Opportunist in regards to taking it up to 5th level. While the Scout archetype does give you many more opportunities to sneak when your melee buddy is not around, with SA on AOOs, a rogue can do some major damage with a reach weapon.

Perhaps going down the Whip feat chain with Combat Reflexes would be very beneficial. Though the chain is quite long and some feats might not become accessible to a multiclassing rogue going into 3/4th BAB classes; at least not until the higher levels.

-- ECL: 13 build --
Race: Halfling
Sneak Attack: 3d6+1d6+1d6+1d6+2d6 = 8d6
- Rogue 5
- Inner Sea Pirate 1
- Assassin 1
- Master Spy 1
- Halfling Opportunist 5

[If no Fractional]
BAB = +0 1st/ Defensive Combat Training (Halfling Opportunist)
BAB = +2 3rd/ Deceitful (Master Spy)
BAB = +3 5th/ Iron Will (Master Spy)
BAB = +3 7th/ Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip)
BAB = +3 9th/ Weapon Focus (Whip)
BAB = +5 11th/ Whip Mastery
BAB = +6 13th/ Improved Whip Mastery

Rogue Talent: Combat Trick (Combat Reflexes)
- Taken during Rogue levels

----

Not too bad, though some rearranging of the classes might be in order to get the most out of your feats and stuff.

[Hylas]

Well if you don't mind dealing non-lethal damage then:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat

Sneak attacks will turn from 1d6 to 1d6+2 to 2d6+4. So 12d6 is now 24d6+48 non-lethal damage. If you somehow get a bunch of feats because the DM has been drinking too much and gave them away (or you're doing gestalt), get spirited charge for double damage (now 48d6+96, avg 264).



On a side note: In my browsing I found a feat that lets you spend lay on hands to deal damage on a charge as a paladin. Pretty cool, especially if you're a mounted charger.

[Absol197]

Sokka, sneak attacks don't work if you yell it out loud.

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself!

As it is, I can't think of anything you're missing off of the top of my head. I'll come back if I do come up with something, though.

[grarrrg]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat

Sneak attacks will turn from 1d6 to 1d6+2 to 2d6+4. So 12d6 is now 24d6+48 non-lethal damage.

Sap Adept is fine, but Sap Master may be out.
Sap Master:

Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent, roll your sneak attack dice twice...

The opponent must be flat-footed for Double Damage. Being able to deal Sneak damage otherwise does not get around this restriction.


And it looks like we're going to wind up with at least 2 different builds
Build 1: Halfling Opportunist + Whip, abusing Sneak on AoO's
Build A: Knife Master Rogue (d8's!), Two-Weapon Fighting with 'knives'

The Halfling/Whip can easily carry a Sap in the off-hand for close range AoO's, with the Sap Adept feat of course (Two-Weapon fighting is optional, not necessary though).

Also, 2 levels of Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) Fighter would help with feats, the 2nd level also tosses in a free Combat Expertise, which qualifies us for the Gang Up (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gang-up-combat) feat, which would further help us with out Sneak Whipping.

If Fractional Bab is out, then I can definitely see dropping (at least) 1 of the dip levels from the build, just to not fall TOO much behind behind.

[Hylas]

Sap Adept is fine, but Sap Master may be out.
The opponent must be flat-footed for Double Damage. Being able to deal Sneak damage otherwise does not get around this restriction.
That's a pretty crummy catch. Why can't mundanes have nice things? But it's not too important for scout anyways.


At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
Disaster averted!

Non-lethal Man, AWAY!

[deuxhero]

How long do you think it will be before Pazio retcons all instances of multiple SA sources to stack like Vivisectionist?

[grarrrg]

I just realized something that can save a ton of feats.
Don't use a Whip.
We wind up spending 3-or-4 feats, and don't wind up with any better AoO range than a normal Reach Weapon, Improved Whip Master only gives us AoO range of "normal reach plus 5ft.", so we still only reach 10ft.
On the other hand, the Whip is the ONLY 1-handed Reach weapon. So if we took something else, we'd need to find a way to fight adjacent as well.
Just throwing this out there for now, but Improved Unarmed Strike can be taken as a Feat, or as a Rogue Talent>Ninja Trick>Feat....Actually, scratch that. Sap Adept just requires us to do 'Bludgeoning, Nonlethal', so we DO NOT want Improved Unarmed Strike.
PROBLEM SOLVED! Just grab a normal Reach weapon and forget about the Whip.


Disaster averted!

Non-lethal Man, AWAY!

Hmm...
Max Dex, take Weapon Finesse, put Agile on the Sap, might as well get 2 and take Two-Weapon Fighting...


How long do you think it will be before Pazio retcons all instances of multiple SA sources to stack like Vivisectionist?

It'd be more trouble than it's worth because not all Sneak-classes progress at an "every other level" rate.
Some do it every 3rd, some every 4th, and a few every 5th.
Retconning the every 2nd would be easy enough, but I'm not sure about the rest.

[Chained Birds]

Well then, instead of going down the Whip's feat chain, we could use stuff to boost the Reach of the Rogue though he's need something more than just Enlarge Person as he would start off as a Halfling (Small > Medium = no change in reach).

Combat Patrol
- Requirements: Mobility, Combat Reflexes, +5 BAB
- Benefits: Increases the characters reach by 5ft per +5 BAB.
- Downsides: Requires a Full-Round Action to activate and only lasts until the beginning of your next turn.

Dodge and Mobility aren't too bad of feats for a Scout Rogue do to all the running around he'll probably doing, though the major part is the Full-Round Action and only getting 5ft-10ft out of it for most Multiclassing SA builds.

Vicious Stomp
- Requirements: Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Reflexes
- Benefits: Enemy provokes an AOO when they fall prone adjacent to you.
- Downsides: Only get the benefit from an Adjacent opponent falling prone and may require a bunch of feats to work properly.

Tripping can be okay for a Rogue though they might need to do some finagling around with feats and class dipping to get all the feats they need to excel at tripping. Might not ever be as good as the fighter or other full BAB class, but they could at least trip up a Wizard or something small (maybe).

[Crasical]

I'm terrified that the product of this thread might end up being a BDSM, whip-wielding pirate/assassin. Just throwing that out there.

[Cieyrin]

A minor note but if you go Knife Master Rogue, you want to pick up the River Rat trait, as it's the only trait I'm aware of that just grants a bonus to damage without any strings attached, but only with daggers. It's a small thing but we may as well milk it for what it's worth.

[deuxhero]

Quain Martial Artist/Mizu Ki Hikari Rebel does, but for unarmed strikes, which isn't applicable to you.

Blade of the Society gives +1 damage on "damage rolls from sneak attacks". You can take it as +1 per die, but I don't think that was the intent.

[grarrrg]

Just for fun, I came up with a mini-build:
*fanfare*
I call it the "DUCK!"

Rogue Knife Master+Bandit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/bandit) 17/Inner Sea Pirate 1/Assassin 1/Master Spy 1
Max your Stealth Skill
Main-hand weapon is a Dagger
Off-hand weapon is a Merciful Sap (deals non-lethal anyway, may as well take advantage)
*Other enchantments at your discretion*
Notable Feats are: Sap Adept, Sap Master, Two Weapon Fighting

And now the fun.
Rogue starts Stealthed, moves adjacent to Victim and ambushes him.
SURPRISE ROUND!
Due to Bandit, Rogue can make a Full Attack during the Surprise round.
Dagger deals 1d4+9d8+3d6+Str per hit (lethal)
Sap deals 1d6+18d4+7d6+48+Str per hit (nonlethal)

Around this point, you'll start asking to borrow everyone's d4's and d8's (possibly d6's too) just to roll damage for 1 lousy attack.
Also, around this point, the DM should start reaching for the nearest/heaviest rulebook.

Now is when you DUCK!



I'm terrified ABSOLUTELY EXCITED that the product of this thread might end up being a BDSM, whip-wielding pirate/assassin. Just throwing that out there.

Fixed that for you :smallwink:

[Crasical]

Off-hand weapon is a Merciful Sap (deals non-lethal anyway, may as well take advantage)

... ? Why would you put the Merciful enchantment on a Sap?

[Benly]

... ? Why would you put the Merciful enchantment on a Sap?

Presumably because, if you're going to be dealing only nonlethal damage anyway, its typeless 1d6 extra damage is better than the typed d6 you get from the energy brands.

[grarrrg]

... ? Why would you put the Merciful enchantment on a Sap?

Because I can :smallcool: