What else should an optimized-IC Bard be able to do?

[danzibr]

I'll be starting a campaign here in a few weeks and I'll be a Bard specializing in Inspire Courage (feel free to give pointers on this if you wish, but I already have all the usuals). However, if for some reason I can't do my BM (say if the clause, "To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing" is not met), I don't want to be totally useless.

My current plan is to go Bard 20, but I'm open to suggestions if it doesn't hurt my IC at all.

Currently the plan is to go Silverbrow Human, level 1 feats Dragonfire Inspiration and Jack of All Trades. Level 3 feat, Melodic Casting. Level 6 feat, Words of Creation (and swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart). I haven't planned past level 6 yet (we're starting at level 3), other than thinking of staying down the Bard path.

In particular, how hard would it be to do some sort of ranged melee (I'm thinking whip) while not losing any of my IC optimization? Or pick up some good spell casting while not losing any of my IC optimization?

Thanks.

[Eisenfavl]

Remember: with lingering song it lasts for 10 more rounds, and your music effects yourself. If you set up your DFI and IC correctly, you can be a melee monstrosity.
Seeker of the Song level 2 gives you two songs at once. DFI + IC.
Depending on your DM, you might be able to get pyroclastic dragon DFI, and mix in war chanter 5 to get sonic DFI + fire DFI + IC.

Your music gives you ridiculous melee bonuses, so going for something like a spiked chain, or if Dragon Mag is on the table, this weapon. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4476.0)

[danzibr]

Seeker of the Song level 2 gives you two songs at once. DFI + IC.
Holy smokes! I had no idea. I'm totally going down this path. Thanks.

So now there remains to ask... how should I melee monster it up? Currently I'm thinking of just staying behind the other peeps and using my whip.

I should have mentioned that most of the other players aren't going to do any optimizing, so I don't want to hog the spotlight. And that's why I want to be a buffer.

[Goldfly]

Holy smokes! I had no idea. I'm totally going down this path. Thanks.

So now there remains to ask... how should I melee monster it up? Currently I'm thinking of just staying behind the other peeps and using my whip.

I should have mentioned that most of the other players aren't going to do any optimizing, so I don't want to hog the spotlight. And that's why I want to be a buffer.

One option is to multiclasss into either Warblade or Crusader and take Song of the White Raven- then, they will advance your IC. Which one depends on whether you want to be tank-y or strike-y. Either is a good choice, though.

Another option is Snowflake Wardance, in Frostfell. When wielding a one handed slashing weapon (like a whip), you may use a use of bardic music to gain your Charisma to your to-hit.

Spell selection is important, as well- Bards get some decent combat spells, particularly in the Spell Compendium.

You could, of course, also combine these, but that might be a bit much.

[Kansaschaser]

Feats for an Inspiration Bard
-Dragonfire Inspiration
-Versatile Performer (use many instruments)
-Words of Creation
-Requiem (to affect undead)
-Song of the Heart
-Disguise Spell (spells can't be countered)
-Subsonics (inspire without people finding out)

Great Spells for an Inspiration Bard
-Inspirational Boost (bigger inspiration)
-Speak to Allies (inspire at any distance)
-Sonorous Hum (keeps up your concentration)
-Harmonic Chorus (use Sonorous Hum on this)
-Animate Instrument (instrument keeps up inspiration for you)

Items for an Inspiration Bard
-Masterwork Instruments (Complete Adventurer, look at the bonuses)
-Harmonizing Weapon (Magic Item Compendium)
-Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium)

[Gwendol]

Take the archery route instead of going melee. Early on you get alter self, which means that you can grow wings for example, and stay out of harms way easily while singing and firing your bow. With IC and DFI up those arrows are likely to hit and cause massive damage, and hasted, even more so.

[eggs]

In particular, how hard would it be to do some sort of ranged melee (I'm thinking whip) while not losing any of my IC optimization? Or pick up some good spell casting while not losing any of my IC optimization?
Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8
and
Bard 8/Arcane Archer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3
are staples because they do exactly those things.

Inspire Courage is cheap (barring WoC). That leaves the rest of IC builds very open for other things.

[Kaeso]

BARDIC KNACK

Seriously, you trade in Bardic Knowledge (boo hoo, don't pretend you even need it :smallsigh:) and gain bardic knack, which gives you your bard level as "ranks" in any skill you have bought at least 0.5 ranks in. Combine it with the feat "Jack of all trades" (giving you 0.5 skill points in every single skill out there) and voilà, you have your bard level as ranks in all skills, unless your actual ranks invested in it are better. You're an even better skill monkey than a factotum and you only needed to sacrifice a useless class feature and a single feat for it

[eggs]

Just as a heads-up, Jack of All Trades + Bardic Knack doesn't work by RAW and probably wasn't intended to, given the writers' awareness of other splats.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't work, or that it shouldn't be used (it's a really cool combo, and nothing gamebreaking); just be sure to run it by the DM before investing permanent resources in it - it can suck to be called out on the legality of the trick when you really need to make that autohypnosis check, and find your bonus is +2 instead of +12.

If you want to make an argument in the combination's favor, appeal to the clear intentions behind its components - Jack of All trades to let a character use skills untrained and Bardic Knack to give bonuses on all skill checks that a character is allowed to make. (And 3.5's Jack of All Trades needs this kind of generous interpretation to do anything at all - per the PHB, 1/2 a rank in a skill still doesn't count as trained.)

[Kaeso]

Just as a heads-up, Jack of All Trades + Bardic Knack doesn't work by RAW

:smallconfused: Please explain that? As far as I'm aware of, that combo works just fine by RAW.

[danzibr]

:smallconfused: Please explain that? As far as I'm aware of, that combo works just fine by RAW.
This is my understanding too.

[rot42]

:smallconfused: Please explain that? As far as I'm aware of, that combo works just fine by RAW.

On page 66 of the PHB it is stated that "at least 1 rank" is required in a skill to use it. 1/2 rank being less than 1 rank, the argument goes, indicates that investing 1 skill point for 1/2 rank in a cross-class skill is not sufficient to make a check in a trained only skill.

Personally, I feel that the game plays more smoothly if this passage is regarded as a case of the designers glossing over fine detail, and the combo works just fine.

[Kaeso]

You have a point, but the description of the feat goes as follows.

You can use any skill as if you had 1/2 rank in that skill. This benefit allows you to attempt checks with skills that normally don't allow untrained skill checks (such as Decipher Script and Knowledge).
It specifies that this allows you to attempt checks that usually don't allow untrained skill checks, which means the rules contradict themselves. If we use the (legal) principle of lex specialis (special/specific law) trumping lex generalis (general law), the bardic knack trick should work.

[eggs]

The problem with the combination is Bardic Knack's "If the skill doesn't allow untrained checks, you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check," which bars the use of the Bardic Knack ability alongside 0-rank (or 1/2-rank) skills.

[Kaeso]

*sigh* A perfect example that shows with how little care WotC created DnD 3.5e.

[thompur]

I'll be starting a campaign here in a few weeks and I'll be a Bard specializing in Inspire Courage (feel free to give pointers on this if you wish, but I already have all the usuals). However, if for some reason I can't do my BM (say if the clause, "To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing" is not met), I don't want to be totally useless.

My current plan is to go Bard 20, but I'm open to suggestions if it doesn't hurt my IC at all.

Currently the plan is to go Silverbrow Human, level 1 feats Dragonfire Inspiration and Jack of All Trades. Level 3 feat, Melodic Casting. Level 6 feat, Words of Creation (and swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart). I haven't planned past level 6 yet (we're starting at level 3), other than thinking of staying down the Bard path.

In particular, how hard would it be to do some sort of ranged melee (I'm thinking whip) while not losing any of my IC optimization? Or pick up some good spell casting while not losing any of my IC optimization?

Thanks.

I'd recommend a strong laxative.

[Magnera]

I think it was War Chanter/5 that gave you a second bardic music, if combined with seeker of the song/2 then you might get three songs going at the same time! Say hello to Dragon Fire Inspiration, Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness

[danzibr]

I'd recommend a strong laxative.
I don't think anyone would say, "I can't do my bowel movement."

In any case, thanks for, uhh... never mind.

On a note relevant to the actual thread, due to the low optimization of the rest of the party I think I'll be going Bard 20. Thanks for the feedback all (well, almost all).

[Morph Bark]

Three levels of Heartwarder won't hurt. You could also take a level in Sublime Chord and then levels in PrCs that advance casting and Bardic Music both, advancing SC casting of course.

A level in Warweaver on top of that will make you into an even more excellent buffer.

Bard 6/Warweaver 1/Heartwarder 3/Sublime Chord 1/Bardic PrC 9


You can also swap Fascinate for Healing Hymn from Complete Champion and take the Chaos Music feat to count as a Bard of 4 levels higher (but no higher than your character level) for Bardic Music (kind of like Practiced Spellcaster).

EDIT: With a low-OP party, I'd suggest Healing Hymn even more actually. It helps the healing bigtime.