Favored Class: Any (Unless It's Not That One)

[willpell]

So I'm pretty steamed at what I found out today. I've always read "Favored Class: Any" under Humans, Half-Elves, and Illumians as meaning that you can ignore any one of your classes for multiclassing purposes, but it turns out that the RAW dictates these races must always favor their highest class. This is not what the word "Any" means, and it utterly sucks. A build such as Ranger 5 / Rogue 5 / Wizard 1 works if you're an Elf because the Elf (apart from several subraces) always favors Wizard. But a human can't pull this build off without an XP penalty, even though humans are supposed to be the jacks-of-all-trades who will dabble in anything that strikes their fancy. Why the Elf is better at being an almost-not-a-wizard-at-all than the human is at being a Wizard 16 / Ranger 3 / Rogue 1 I can't imagine.

I am convinced that this was a mistake on the writers' part; they were just assuming that "ignore your highest class" would make any build anyone would ever want to try viable, and didn't think it through at all. As a particular example, look at the Half-Elf in 3.0, before they added Diplomacy bonuses; if you compare the Elf to the Half-Elf, the latter loses several of the Elf's advantages, and gains nothing in exchange except a slightly longer Bonus Languages list, as if that was worth anything, and the Favored Class: "Any" bit, which now turns out to be worse in some cases than favoring a specific class! This cannot have been the intent.

Can anyone think of an "illegal" build which absolutely should be disallowed, where being able to favor a lower-ranked class would break the game? Because I see absolutely no reason not to houserule to the contrary.

[Namfuak]

Many people ignore the multiclassing penalty wholesale because it imposes arbitrary restrictions, like the one you mentioned. Granted, if you do you pretty much drive the nail into the coffin for half-elves, but if you wanted the favored class- any in the first place you would have gone human.

As for your second question, I cannot think of one off the top of my head. What's funny is that this basically is hurting melee and only melee, since most straight caster builds are only going to take one or possibly two base classes, and the rest will be PrCs.

[Titanium Fox]

Honestly, literally everyone at both my college and my local game store house rule the XP Penalty for multi-classing away. Hell, we generally don't use XP anyways, we just level up when the DM says to. I actually used Experience, and it was 'new' and 'novel' to my players, who have been playing for up to 12 years at the highest.

[rot42]

For bonus fun, look at the redefinition of "Favored Class: Any" for Synads in Complete Psionic. They ignore XP penalty for whatever class they select at character level one.

[Answerer]

Wait, people use the multiclass penalty rules? Why?

[Ashtagon]

For bonus fun, look at the redefinition of "Favored Class: Any" for Synads in Complete Psionic. They ignore XP penalty for whatever class they select at character level one.

This is actually the way I play favoured class: any for all races with that ability. It seems to make more sense to me.

[Larkas]

This is actually the way I play favoured class: any for all races with that ability. It seems to make more sense to me.

I can see several melee builds unintentionally turning Favored Class: Any into Favored Class: Barbarian :smallbiggrin: Seriously, this defeats the whole "human versatility" thing.

[Ashtagon]

I can see several melee builds unintentionally turning Favored Class: Any into Favored Class: Barbarian :smallbiggrin: Seriously, this defeats the whole "human versatility" thing.

I don't get how this should be a problem?

It's certainly more versatile than any other race, which has their favoured class chosen at birth.

[Larkas]

I don't get how this should be a problem?

It's certainly more versatile than any other race, which has their favoured class chosen at birth.

If a human takes his first class as a favored class, you'd fall into a problem analogous to the one the OP presented, though not as severe. A few builds use something like Barbarian1/Warblade1/Psychic Warrior2/SomethingX, where something is also a base class, and X is greater than 2. In this case, you'd be better off having your favored class as the class you have invested most levels, as was intended for humans by RAW, apparently.

But you're right about the increased versatility. I just think you should just say which class is your favored and call it a day, and not depend on another mechanic (such as class with most levels or first class taken).

[Ashtagon]

If a human takes his first class as a favored class, you'd fall into a problem analogous to the one the OP presented, though not as severe. A few builds use something like Barbarian1/Warblade1/Psychic Warrior2/SomethingX, where something is also a base class, and X is greater than 2. In this case, you'd be better off having your favored class as the class you have invested most levels, as was intended for humans by RAW, apparently.

But you're right about the increased versatility. I just think you should just say which class is your favored and call it a day, and not depend on another mechanic (such as class with most levels or first class taken).

Well, nothing about "favoured class: pick one" requires that your first level also be your favoured class. You're essentially criticising the concept because a player might make a bad decision.

I guess the PHB2 re-training rules could be used if players are that hung up over picking the wrong favoured class.

Personally, I prefer PF's take on favoured classes, where you get rewards for picking your class, not penalties for spreading thin.

[Flickerdart]

A few builds use something like Barbarian1/Warblade1/Psychic Warrior2/SomethingX, where something is also a base class, and X is greater than 2.
PrCs don't count for multiclass penalty, and after 6 levels you better qualify for one.

Having said that, multiclass XP penalties are inane and ridiculous, and hose over mundane classes even more than usual.

[Malimar]

Wait, people use the multiclass penalty rules? Why?

Some DMs see the kind of Frankenstein build that includes more than two base classes as distastefully inelegant enough to want to disincentivize it. Also, houseruling the XP penalties away makes the favored class entry do nothing, doing away with a pleasingly direct mechanical incentive to not ignore the norms of your character's culture.

But "some DMs" in that context is probably limited to the set that includes me and only me.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I think that, synergistic stat adjustments and racial abilities, ACF's, PrC, Paragon Classes, weapon familiarity, and race exclusive feats are sufficient menchanical motivation to follow cultural norms.

[Fitz10019]

I have twothree problems with applying 'racial norms' to PCs.

1. PCs are special creatures who usually do not live within their own racial communities, so for them to be 'norm' or 'typical' makes no sense to me.

2. Racial norms smell like real-world racial stereotypes, so I see them as leftovers from an earlier time in our society when teaching stereotypes was considered education and wisdom.

3. How on Oerth can being a wizard be a racial norm for elves? For the Drow, sure, when you get slaves to do all the mundane labor, but standard elves? That's absurd. Who bakes the bread? Who picks the apples? Do they all just prestidigitate a fistful of grass to make it tasty?

I agree with the Pathfinder approach to this.

I have houserules so that a character's race has very little affect on it's build. I want my players to make choices in this order: build, personality, race.

[Ashtagon]

I have twothree problems with applying 'racial norms' to PCs.

1. PCs are special creatures who usually do not live within their own racial communities, so for them to be 'norm' or 'typical' makes no sense to me.

"I want to play a halfling. Only, he was a weightlifter unlike any other halfling, so he should get a +2 to Strength instead of the -2. Oh, and he had nothing to do with slings. Instead, he practiced with the greatsword given by some half-giant mercenaries who passed through town. But yeah, he's a halfling."

They exist to avoid a certain kind of munchkinism.

Also, there are certain tropes that are well-established. When someone says they are playing a gnome in Dragonlance, or a halfling in Mystara, people know what to expect. This allows them to get past the strangeness of the character and into the story proper. If other players have no idea what your character can do in situations when they should reasonably know (short of meta-gaming), they can't plan tactics properly. And they lose their focus on the story too.



2. Racial norms smell like real-world racial stereotypes, so I see them as leftovers from an earlier time in our society when teaching stereotypes was considered education and wisdom.


This would have merit if the fantasy game races were blatant caricatures of real world ethnic groups. Except for Magitech (from the Amazing Engine game product line) and Mongoose Conan, we don't have that.

The fact that all the common player races are designed to be different but equally powerful in their own way also debunks the racism argument.



3. How on Oerth can being a wizard be a racial norm for elves? For the Drow, sure, when you get slaves to do all the mundane labor, but standard elves? That's absurd. Who bakes the bread? Who picks the apples? Do they all just prestidigitate a fistful of grass to make it tasty?


Fair comment on this. In my house rules, I have changed the favoured classes so no one gets a full caster as a favoured class (elves get ranger; gnomes get rogue).



I agree with the Pathfinder approach to this.

I have houserules so that a character's race has very little affect on it's build. I want my players to make choices in this order: build, personality, race.

[Larkas]

Actually, favored classes for drow are cleric for females, wizard for males.

I don't like the multiclass penalty either, though I do enforce it somewhat in my games. I just give every character a Favored Class: Any in addition to their regular favored class. An elf would have Favored Class: Wizard and Favored Class: Any, whereas humans have two Favored Class: Any. That seems to solve any problems, or at least I never ran into one before.

[PersonMan]

They exist to avoid a certain kind of munchkinism.

I don't know, to me the ideal anti-munchkin race mechanics would be 'every race gets the exact same thing mechanically, the rest is culture'. Now, munchkins just find the race that gives +X to what they want and take that one. It also makes world building easy when you can just put elves, dwarves, etc. into their own nations and give them all the same personality.


Also, there are certain tropes that are well-established. When someone says they are playing a gnome in Dragonlance, or a halfling in Mystara, people know what to expect. This allows them to get past the strangeness of the character and into the story proper. If other players have no idea what your character can do in situations when they should reasonably know (short of meta-gaming), they can't plan tactics properly. And they lose their focus on the story too.

To me, the whole 'Bob is from an exotic land in the far north and all we know about the people there are rumors and stereotypes' thing is a great chance for roleplaying and story development. Instead of just somehow knowing very accurately that Bob's people are really good archers, they've heard stories about Bobians who kill ten men with a single arrow and have to, you know, ask Bob himself if they want to know what he can do.

Often, I have the default fluff be 'common knowledge' which in some situations is completely wrong (there are, no doubt, quite a few misconceptions we have about other areas in the world even with modern technology. If it takes a story 8 months and 10 different speakers to get from A to B, it won't be the same upon arrival) but is often at least fairly accurate. That way, you know what your character would know about an elf, but not necessarily what they (the elf) would know.

Also, if people should reasonably know what someone can do, why not just tell them? 'Hey, Joe, during that 15 hour trek to the mine we would probably have talked about a strategy, what can Bob do?' rather than 'Well, everyone knows all Bobians are archers, so Bob will stay in the back and shoot arrows while...'


This would have merit if the fantasy game races were blatant caricatures of real world ethnic groups. Except for Magitech (from the Amazing Engine game product line) and Mongoose Conan, we don't have that.

The fact that all the common player races are designed to be different but equally powerful in their own way also debunks the racism argument.

I don't precisely what he means, but for me the problem is more something like describing an entire race to be defined by a single trait or a handful of traits (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats) rather than just giving some cultural norms ("most elves in nation X are like this") in the default fluff.

When a character's personality can always be fairly easily described by reading their race , I think there's a problem.

[Ashtagon]

I can link to tvtropes too.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurMonstersAreDifferent

That's an umbrella page for dozens of pages that describe how "elf" needn't be the be-all and end-all of a character's personality.

Heck, for a good example of how "race" doesn't mean "has this precise set of abilities", go read up on the Warhammer Fantasy universe.

[Riverdance]

You can always just ask your DM/GM if you can ignore those rules. There seems to be a rather large consensus of people who, to use a technical term, think they're really bogus.

[willpell]

Without quite knowing why, I find that I would rather fix the rules than ignore them. There's a lot about 3.5's rules that I really like, I just want to adjust about a thousand details to better fit my preferences, without entirely throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

I despise fantastic racism, but most of the mechanical effects of race in D&D are culture-based rather than "in the blood", so I'm mostly okay with them. Elves are supposed to be a very magical people, so going heavily wizard makes perfect sense for them (whether the same is true of dwarves is something of a different story IMO; I've never thought the dwarf seemed as compelling of a fantasy archetype, or as different from humans, as the elf). Besides which nearly every race other than humans has an extended lifespan, which I feel would give them a tendency to skew conservative and to heavily cleave to their traditions, so it makes sense to me they'd be somewhat narrow compared to humans, and thereby grant humanity the "race of destiny" status that the game assigns them; I really like that outcome. One thing I've tried when I'm making sample characters is to advance their age by a year or so with every level I add, having initially picked an age in the 20s or something (playing an 18-year-old never quite feels right to me; the character doesn't seem like they'd have a fully defined personality until they've taken an "adult" role in society, and my attitude on the topic of when you become an adult is perhaps excessively modern). This means that my human characters have the age adjustment to their stats approaching like a guillotine in a very small number of levels, and while this isn't much of a mechanical effect, it really affects the attitude that I end up portraying in their writeup. Try it sometime.

I don't really understand Larkas's point about auto-Barbarians. The class I had in mind when I wondered whether my rule was broken was Totemist (from Magic of Incarnum), as this gets an insane jump of power at level 2 and then tapers off. If I was entirely certain that allowing players to take that 2-level dip before embarking on some X4/Y4 build was safe, I'd go right ahead and allow it. (Although it occurs to me that the inconvenience is fairly minor in most cases and really not a good rule for achieving balance. An outright prohibition would be a lot more effective than simply penalizing advancement, given that the rule can't even kick in until the character has advanced several levels - the soonest a FC:Any race can suffer it is level 7, meaning that you've gained 21,000 XP without any penalty.)

By the way Malimar, you're not alone; I also consider builds which depend on too many classes to be a bit sloppy-looking. I don't want a stereotype, but an archetype is a nice thing. Although I'm not too fond of some of the classes and PrCs that were designed to specifically get the "jack of all trades" flavor, such as the Factotum or the Arcane Trickster, so allowing more generous multiclassing has its advantages in my eyes, but they definitely don't involve the kind of tricks that CharOp enthusiasts are quick to point out the rules totally allow.

[charcoalninja]

As for simple labor. Unseen servant can perform nearly all of the menial tasks a society would require and lasts hours per casting.

[Flickerdart]

"I want to play a halfling. Only, he was a weightlifter unlike any other halfling, so he should get a +2 to Strength instead of the -2. Oh, and he had nothing to do with slings. Instead, he practiced with the greatsword given by some half-giant mercenaries who passed through town. But yeah, he's a halfling."
That's not munchkinism, that's homebrew.

Take, for instance, the Elves, whose favored class is Wizard. They are not actually good at being wizards. In fact, being any sort of spellcaster defeats one of their major advantages (sleeping for only 4 hours a day).

[Malimar]

People underestimate the role of culture. Even the most shunned and abnormal outcast from culture X should (and, in real life, generally will) be more like the average culture X individual than she is like the average culture Y individual, especially if the cultures aren't just different kinds of humans.

The phenomenon where every character is a human, even if he wears a non-human body, is a pet peeve of mine. It's rampant in published fiction, and when mainstream authors make an effort to get it right, they're usually clumsy and unsubtle about it (springing to mind are the two main aliens of the Ender's Game sequels, and the house-elves of Harry Potter. They have one or two utterly alien concepts that are central to their culture (roughly, "it is a great honor to be vivisected and turned into a tree", "there's no such thing as individuals", and "being a slave is super-awesome", respectively), but they still use, e.g., many of the same metaphorical constructs that we use in English). So I don't actually expect any RPer to ever get it right, especially if they're not actively trying and haven't studied a great deal of anthropology and philosophy of language. So I approve of anything that disrupts a human mindset and makes it easier to get into an alien mindset, even a little. Ruling away multiclass penalties makes every non-human race less alien.

In D&D, flexibility is a trait that is explicitly the domain of humans (including humans with elf blood or with words for blood). Most players, being human (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostWritersAreHuman), will be inclined to think they should be able to study as many disciplines as they want, not realizing that most non-human brains just don't work that way. It would no more occur to an elf to multiclass with anything other than wizard than it would occur to a human to gzortaplex everything toovy.


I don't like the multiclass penalty either, though I do enforce it somewhat in my games. I just give every character a Favored Class: Any in addition to their regular favored class. An elf would have Favored Class: Wizard and Favored Class: Any, whereas humans have two Favored Class: Any. That seems to solve any problems, or at least I never ran into one before.

That's actually exactly what I do, too, even though I like the idea of multiclass penalties. It only really winds up affecting the most ludicrously complex of Frankenstein builds, and still gives a mechanical indicator of cultural norms.


Take, for instance, the Elves, whose favored class is Wizard. They are not actually good at being wizards. In fact, being any sort of spellcaster defeats one of their major advantages (sleeping for only 4 hours a day).

Hence the inclusion of an additional mechanic to indicate how frequently they are wizards, even though it isn't the most "optimized" choice.

[Ashtagon]

The average elf isn't a wizard. Or even a sorcerer or adept. The average elf is a commoner, or maybe a warrior or expert.

The PC race package labelled "elf" is for those exceptional elves that get to be PCs. That's why favoured class is wizard for elves. Because elves that tend towards exceptionalness all tend towards arcane magical study. At least, that's the trope that was followed for the SRD elf.

[Urpriest]

Some DMs see the kind of Frankenstein build that includes more than two base classes as distastefully inelegant enough to want to disincentivize it. Also, houseruling the XP penalties away makes the favored class entry do nothing, doing away with a pleasingly direct mechanical incentive to not ignore the norms of your character's culture.

But "some DMs" in that context is probably limited to the set that includes me and only me.

Multiclassing penalties encourage Frankenstein builds.

Scout 4/Ranger 16 takes multiclassing penalties, Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Scout 2/Ranger 2/Giant Jumble of PrCs does not.

[PersonMan]

I can link to tvtropes too.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurMonstersAreDifferent

That's an umbrella page for dozens of pages that describe how "elf" needn't be the be-all and end-all of a character's personality.

Good. What does this have to do with my argument about how an entire race wouldn't necessarily have the same culture and the other PCs wouldn't necessarily have accurate information about it, or how such a lack of knowledge could actually be good for the story instead of bad for it?

Or do you just agree with my points?


The phenomenon where every character is a human, even if he wears a non-human body, is a pet peeve of mine. It's rampant in published fiction, and when mainstream authors make an effort to get it right, they're usually clumsy and unsubtle about it (springing to mind are the two main aliens of the Ender's Game sequels, and the house-elves of Harry Potter. They have one or two utterly alien concepts that are central to their culture (roughly, "it is a great honor to be vivisected and turned into a tree", "there's no such thing as individuals", and "being a slave is super-awesome", respectively), but they still use, e.g., many of the same metaphorical constructs that we use in English). So I don't actually expect any RPer to ever get it right, especially if they're not actively trying and haven't studied a great deal of anthropology and philosophy of language. So I approve of anything that disrupts a human mindset and makes it easier to get into an alien mindset, even a little. Ruling away multiclass penalties makes every non-human race less alien.

I agree with everything but the last sentence. While I agree that it adds a bit more 'alien-ness' to other races, it doesn't make much sense that an elf has a difficult time learning how to stab things in new and interesting ways because they can cast spells pretty well unless you say that, the older elves get, the more specialized their minds become...which is pretty interesting, but not at all present in the default fluff.


In D&D, flexibility is a trait that is explicitly the domain of humans (including humans with elf blood or with words for blood). Most players, being human (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostWritersAreHuman), will be inclined to think they should be able to study as many disciplines as they want, not realizing that most non-human brains just don't work that way. It would no more occur to an elf to multiclass with anything other than wizard than it would occur to a human to gzortaplex everything toovy.

If you play with classes as in-game constructs or similar (you need to go to the Mountain Dojo to become a Swordsage, etc.), this makes sense. However, a lot of people play with classes as entirely metagame concepts. A warlock 2/knight 2 isn't necessarily a mage who turned from unlocking their inner powers to the way of the sword, perhaps it's just someone who can use their raw belief in the power of honor to create magical effects.


Hence the inclusion of an additional mechanic to indicate how frequently they are wizards, even though it isn't the most "optimized" choice.

Of course, this doesn't really make much sense in-universe, as a race that only sleeps half as long as most others would probably tend towards areas in which they had an advantage for that reason. It makes about as much sense as dwarves being culturally wizard-friendly, as they gain almost nothing that makes them better wizards, just like elves.

Then again, elves don't make much sense in general unless you say 'well, Corellon was just really, really stubborn in what elves were going to be and didn't see any reason to make them actually be really good at being mages even though he wanted them all to use arcane magic. Oh, and, for whatever reason, he also wanted them to be frail but graceful. I guess him making them only need to rest for 4 hours when they would need to rest for 8 to be able to prepare their spells was him just being mean.'.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

[QUOTE=Ashtagon;13068406]
Also, there are certain tropes that are well-established. When someone says they are playing a gnome in Dragonlance, or a halfling in Mystara, people know what to expect. This allows them to get past the strangeness of the character and into the story proper. If other players have no idea what your character can do in situations when they should reasonably know (short of meta-gaming), they can't plan tactics properly. And they lose their focus on the story too.

[/QUOTE=Ashtagon;13068406]

What do you expect when someone just tells you their race? Do you immediately assign a logical class and personality?

If you tell me "you see and elf" I don't assume he's a wizard I ask "What are they dressed like" and I'll hope you'll use a gender pronoun when you describe their gear. Then I'll guess at their abilities until then I won't make assumptions other than they like sissy drinks and trees.

[Ashtagon]

To be fair, Corellon, didn't know that WotC was going to change the way magic worked when he made the elves into light sleepers.

@Hand of Vecna: Without also knowing a bit about the campaign setting, as well as that elf's appearance, in which I am playing, I couldn't possibly jump to a conclusion about their abilities based on "you see an elf".

If they were carrying a bow, I might assume they were better with it than the average human, and that they had probably worked to optimise their ability with it a bit.

If I were playing in Mystara, I would assume the elf had some magical ability,because that is literally true for 99% of Mystara elves. In Greyhawk near the Velverdyva, I'd assume the elf was a keen woodsman (woodself?). In the Forgotten realms, that elf is probably 30th level. Whatever that elf is wearing and carrying, I'd assume he had trained to be whatever he appears as (just the same assumption I'd make about a human).

[willpell]

People underestimate the role of culture. Even the most shunned and abnormal outcast from culture X should (and, in real life, generally will) be more like the average culture X individual than she is like the average culture Y individual, especially if the cultures aren't just different kinds of humans.

I'm afraid I really don't buy this logic. If someone has rejected their culture, they will probably make a distinct effort not to resemble it.


The phenomenon where every character is a human, even if he wears a non-human body, is a pet peeve of mine.

An understandable one, but basically inevitable, because as you point out, all the writers and players and so forth are actually human. Until we uplift a dolphin or make contact with the Reticulans, there is absolutely no hope whatsoever of us ever truly understanding a nonhuman mind. I think it's a waste of effort to even try. A roleplaying game doesn't need realism, it needs versimilitude; the point of making a "nonhuman" character isn't to actually be nonhuman, it's to be slightly exotic and special in a way that you don't feel a human character can be. You can't actually be different, you just need to make it seem like you are, well enough to amuse yourself (and others involved in the same activity, such as fellow players and the DM in your game).


with words for blood

LOL.


not realizing that most non-human brains just don't work that way.

Okay, maybe; this kinda makes e.g. elves, who would never even think that other classes are comparable to wizard (okay, kind of a bad example, let's say dwarf and fighter instead), seem not so much alien as stupid. If you could give an example of a thought that comes naturally to an elf but is impossible for a human to think of, this would counteract that, but of course you can't because you're human. Hence my point about why we shouldn't bother to try.


It would no more occur to an elf to multiclass with anything other than wizard than it would occur to a human to gzortaplex everything toovy.

I get what you're trying to convey here, but it's utterly pointless; just making up silly nonsense words is not "sounding alien". If you're a writer of Lovecraftian caliber, you might be able to imply an utterly alien mindset by describing around something that you explicitly can't actually grasp, but two words of gibberish definitely don't cut it.


Hence the inclusion of an additional mechanic to indicate how frequently they are wizards, even though it isn't the most "optimized" choice.

If Wizards really wanted to nail the "all elves are wizards" vibe, they could just make it so that every elf has a single Wizard level as a racial hit die. They opted instead for a more generic hit-die method which goes by creature type and doesn't affect humanoids at all, and I think that was pretty much the right choice.

[Benly]

Multiclassing penalties encourage Frankenstein builds.

Scout 4/Ranger 16 takes multiclassing penalties, Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Scout 2/Ranger 2/Giant Jumble of PrCs does not.

Why stop there? There are some reasonably playable 1-20 builds that never take more than one level of any class. Obviously, there'll never be multiclassing penalties if you do that.

[Starbuck_II]

PrCs don't count for multiclass penalty, and after 6 levels you better qualify for one.

Having said that, multiclass XP penalties are inane and ridiculous, and hose over mundane classes even more than usual.

Is it possible to get up to 100% XP penalty from multiclassing? Like you literally can't advance now?

[Ashtagon]

Is it possible to get up to 100% XP penalty from multiclassing? Like you literally can't advance now?

Fighter 4, then 5 different classes at level one.

[willpell]

In theory such a character might still be able to advance after a fashion, if he can convince the GM to let him gain templates. Whether there's any template that will get him out of the -100% XP sinkhole I'm not sure; if you were an elf whose five non-Fighter classes didn't include Wizard, perhaps the GM could allow you to get bitten by a werebear and gain Favored Class Druid (I'm not sure that's how werebearism actually works, but it's the sort of thing a DM might allow without too much squinting - though how a DM would allow a player to get into that situation in the first place is another story).

[Slipperychicken]

No group I've played in uses multiclass XP penalties, because they're generally cumbersome and serve to unbalance the party. IMO, if you need to see 20 levels of the same class to feel a character concept, that's just fine, but please don't tell me I'm not roleplaying because my character took a ToB dip and a prestige class.


Often enough, I find that the more effective casters I make don't invoke the multiclass xp rules anyway, using prestige classes to advance casting rather than base classes, which generally don't. Non-casters, however, seem to derive their (badly-needed) versatility and power from multiclassing because they can't get it from spells/powers/etc. So keeping the xp penalty, in addition to giving everyone math homework, advances the "melee can't have nice things" problem.