exotic weapons discussion ($$$ instead of feats)

[big teej]

Greetings Playgrounders,

as I grow and progress as a DM, I continually find things about 3.x that don't quite jive with me... and I do what I can to fix them.

big surprise right?

recently, I have been plauged by Exotic Weapons...

it's common knowledge (at least on these boards) that an overwhelming percentage of Exotic Weapons are simply not worth the feat to take them.

in light of this, for quite some time now I've simply said to my players..

"all exotic weapons count as martial, however, you must explain and/or justify why you have this weapon and are using it in place of an actual martial weapon"

obvious problems are
the recurrent problem of "why wouldn't you go ahead and take an 'exotic' weapon?"
and the player doesn't have to pay anything for whatever benefit (however big or small) that they are getting.


I have alighted upon a new idea I rather like, but need some help implementing.


instead of a Feat Tax, an actual tax.

i.e. a character pays x amount of gold pieces for training in a weapon.

this satisfies the mechanical need to pay for advantages/benefits
this satisfies the fluffy need for the training you need (mouth darts anybody?)
this satisfies the conundrum of 'why not take an exotic weapon'?


I intend to base the 'training' cost on a combination of 1)actual mechanical beneifit and 2) amount of training that would logically be required to become proficient in the weapon.


it is this last point I require your aid with.

essentially, for a given Exotic weapon (of your choice)

how much do you think training for it should cost? explain your reasoning.

[DeltaEmil]

How are you going to justify training with 'exotic weapons' costing money (or more money) than training with 'normal weapons'?

[Person_Man]

There are many useful exotic weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) which are well worth the Feat. Boomerang, Braid Blade, Flindbar, Harpoon, Heavy weapons, Kaorti weapons, Lasso, Longstaff, Pincer Staff, Ritiik, Spiked Chain, Spinning Sword, and the Yuan-Ti Serpent Bow, and several others for niche circumstances.

Yes, there are plenty of other cruddy exotic weapons that aren't worth a Feat. But since they don't really add anything to a character except fluff and maybe +1-2 points of damage or some other minor bonus, I'm not sure why the system you propose is needed. Would you give Weapon Focus out for free?

Also, you may wish to note that Master of Masks and Binder can get universal proficiency. Warblade can take Exotic Weapon Proficiency once and then reassign it to whatever he wants. Chameleon assign his floating bonus feat to any of them. Anyone with access (via casting or wands) to the Heroics or Master's Touch spell can use any exotic weapon. So it's not like PC's are lacking in options.

[Greenish]

Any cost plausibly possible for lower level PCs will be chum change for higher level ones.


Now, have you thought about using Weapon Groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm)? They reduce the opportunity cost for learning exotic weapons, without totally removing it, and also mean not every 1st level town guard is proficient with Duom and Longsword and Longbow and Heavy Flail and…

[Edit]: Though I'd recommend making Exotic Double Weapons a part of Exotic Weapons group.

[Telonius]

The Skillful weapon property from Complete Arcane is basically what you're suggesting. It's a +2 enhancement.

EDIT: Would something like a "skill trick" work for you? Maybe make it available for two skill points, once every +5 BAB, to a maximum of 4 at level 20 for a full-BAB class.

[Averis Vol]

as someone who trains in various different weapons i have to say, its not hard to learn to use a new one, maybe 1 week of practice and you'll be proficient, maybe a little longer for the stupider ones (gyrspike anyone?) and it costs practically nothing seeing as you could teach yourself in most cases. so yea i'm going to have to agree, i don't see the need for your system of paying more for a weapon proficiency. the only reason most classes don't get them in the first place is because there ARE a lot more useful, common weapons like a longsword to a khopesh or a glaive to a three section staff and so on. i think the "feat tax" for the good ones are worth it though, there are just some weapons strong enough to require a feat expenditure (elven courtblade, greatbow etc.)

[gbprime]

I addressed this issue in my campaign by flattening the feat chain a bit. I decreed that the Weapon Focus feat comes with proficiency for the weapon if you don't already have it, and Quickdraw for that one weapon if you are already proficient in it.

Coupled with the Warblade's ability to reassign his Weapon Focus and similar feats to any weapon, this alleviates the whole issue. A player is not stuck to a particular peice of equipment, and the DM isn't stuck handing out exactly the pieces of treasure that the party needs.

[ericgrau]

There's no fixed price for +1 untyped damage because the cost of 1 more damage increases as you level up. Weapon special abilities OTOH would be easier to price.

I think in core you simply run out of options for more damage, at high levels power attack penalties actually make you lose damage. So for a fighter with a dozen feats and nothing else left for damage, exotic weapon proficiency is actually worth it. Out of core you have 500 more feats to choose from and that's no longer the case.

What you might do instead is to either beef up exotic weapons or make them only cost half a feat. In the first case you need to go through the work of providing an extra on every single weapon (e.g., another special ability or increased damage die size). In the second case you need to figure out other half feats. Weapons that give special abilities rather than +1 damage, i.e. spiked chain, get no boost. Alternatively you could change the +1 damage on every weapon to some kind of special ability, make them not cost a feat like you said, and price out the special abilities.

[Larkas]

Some of the crappiest exotics are monk special weapons. To alleviate their problems with EWP, you could just say that there's a EWP: Monk Special Weapons and leave it at that. In core only, that would cover 6 weapons.

[Rapidghoul]

Now, have you thought about using Weapon Groups (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm)? They reduce the opportunity cost for learning exotic weapons, without totally removing it, and also mean not every 1st level town guard is proficient with Duom and Longsword and Longbow and Heavy Flail and…

This. I do this in my campaigns to let players pick up more fun combat options to great effect. The only hitch is you have to decide which class non-core classes would qualify as (which isn't hard). In the campaign I just started DMing, there's a Duskblade (counted as Barb/Ranger for basics + 3), a Spellthief (Rogue: basics + 2), Paladin of Tyranny (Paladin: basics + 3), and a Dragonfire Adept (Sorcerer: basics + spears or crossbows). The Spellthief took crossbows and exotic to get hand crossbows, and the paladin took flails, bows, and exotic to get spiked chains and a great composite bow. No feat tax other than limiting your options to a few weapons rather than all martials. You can also homebrew out some groups if you want that don't fit into groups like the Monk or Druid groups. For example, I made a "Bardic weapons" group that included rapiers, shortbows, and whips.