How do you capture a wizard?

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I have seen plenty of threads that have to do with keeping a Wizard (or other generic T1 caster) in prison. However, I don't recall any threads about actually getting them there.

Is there a way to capture and disable a party consisting of 2-3 T1/2 casters, plus a a few T3 ToB and casters without using overwhelming force or other T1 casters*?

We are starting at level 10, so I would like to plan this encounter for characters of level 10-12 (with an encounter level of up to CR 4-ish above them).

I would like to achieve this with a group of Mystic Rangers, using the Dragon326 combat style that grants Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, and Trample as bonus feats. I'm thinking something that exploits the fact that the mount can allow mobility while the rider has the freedom to take non-charge full round actions.

Ideally, I would like to do it without SotAO, but I understand that the feat is a huge power boost, so I'm not 100% opposed to it.



*I don't know the exact party composition yet, but there will be 5 total. There will most likely be a Druid, Artificer or Crafter Wizard, Wu-Jen, Warblade/Swordsage, and Bard or Beguiler.

[Frog Dragon]

A SotAO mystic ranger pretty much is a T1 caster for the first 10 levels, so if you're opposed to using T1 casters for this...

[Malachei]

Sure. Of course, a well-prepared, paranoid wizard is unlikely to be captured, but nonetheless, you can't be alert all the time, especially if you're only level 10+.

Of course, this also depends on your game concept. If you're playing in a typical fantasy setting (Faerun, Greyhawk, Golarion), a powerful mid-level wizard might be a respected member of the community, and munchkin assassin troops might not be commonplace. If you have optimizer players, you're world will look different, with more paranoia.

Anyway, people do sleep, even wizards. Rope Tricks can be found and dispelled, etc.

If you confront the wizard directly, you need a way to stop him from teleporting (Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock), and ideally use Silence on an item carried by a melee character who is keeping close to the wizard, potentially in a grapple.

[sonofzeal]

The problem with T1/2 is that they have options. Whatever you choose to go after them with, there will potentially be defences against.

...that said, if this is a real scenario, they can't actually go all Shrodinger's Wizard on you, so what matters is what they're actually using. Are they LPA-ing Nightmares for Astral Projection? Does the wizard have Celerity? Does the Druid have Greenbound Summoning? Is the Artificer layering up the metamagics to wreak havok with wands?

Defeating them is going to necessarily involve more information. Without that, anything you try could be foilable.

[TheDarkSaint]

Let us look to the Movies and Television. Often, the hero is a very powerful person that if the BBEG took on in a direct fight, he would loose. (Unless the Hero was weak or plucky, and then it the power of the plot which does the heavy lifting)

Regardless, somehow, the hero manages to get captured...a lot...while often managing to break free of prison later, there is something that almost universally employed to get a hero to surrender and come quietly without resisting.

Hostages. Innocent villagers. Children, puppies. You name it, the hero usually comes willingly to be put in prison only to break out and rescue the hostages later.

It's a time honored trope and ones I don't think DM's use enough of. If your players are running actual hero's, use it against them. Have the Big Bads torture, main and capture innocents and the hero's will come running.

Have them show via divination spells just how powerless their victims are and if the PC's don't disarm and come quietly, we'll just kill one per minute.

Works great on hero's and Paladins.

Not so effective on Neutrals unless it has something personal to do with them. "come will us, druid, or we burn down your grove!"

Totally ineffective against evil's as they may want to watch or help out.


Why overpower PC's when you can have them give up willingly?

:)

[Arbane]

To quote a cartoon in the AD&D books: "One false move, wizard, and your familiar gets it!"

[Talakeal]

Let us look to the Movies and Television. Often, the hero is a very powerful person that if the BBEG took on in a direct fight, he would loose. (Unless the Hero was weak or plucky, and then it the power of the plot which does the heavy lifting)

Regardless, somehow, the hero manages to get captured...a lot...while often managing to break free of prison later, there is something that almost universally employed to get a hero to surrender and come quietly without resisting.

Hostages. Innocent villagers. Children, puppies. You name it, the hero usually comes willingly to be put in prison only to break out and rescue the hostages later.

It's a time honored trope and ones I don't think DM's use enough of. If your players are running actual hero's, use it against them. Have the Big Bads torture, main and capture innocents and the hero's will come running.

Have them show via divination spells just how powerless their victims are and if the PC's don't disarm and come quietly, we'll just kill one per minute.

Works great on hero's and Paladins.

Not so effective on Neutrals unless it has something personal to do with them. "come will us, druid, or we burn down your grove!"

Totally ineffective against evil's as they may want to watch or help out.


Why overpower PC's when you can have them give up willingly?

:)

I once had a BBEG force a direct confrontation with one of the PCs by having them threaten (and intend to carry through on) killing every person the PC ever met, from their friends and family to the employees of the businesses they patronize, to the people they simply say hello to on the street.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

A SotAO mystic ranger pretty much is a T1 caster for the first 10 levels, so if you're opposed to using T1 casters for this...

Right, which is why I would prefer to avoid it. It isn't quite as good as a T1, because it is fairly MAD and doesn't get as many spells/day, but you are otherwise correct


Sure. Of course, a well-prepared, paranoid wizard is unlikely to be captured, but nonetheless, you can't be alert all the time, especially if you're only level 10+.

Of course, this also depends on your game concept. If you're playing in a typical fantasy setting (Faerun, Greyhawk, Golarion), a powerful mid-level wizard might be a respected member of the community, and munchkin assassin troops might not be commonplace. If you have optimizer players, you're world will look different, with more paranoia.

Anyway, people do sleep, even wizards. Rope Tricks can be found and dispelled, etc.

If you confront the wizard directly, you need a way to stop him from teleporting (Dimensional Anchor, Dimensional Lock), and ideally use Silence on an item carried by a melee character who is keeping close to the wizard, potentially in a grapple.

The setting is technically homebrew, but it is essentially Greyhawk with a smattering of Eberron, although the magitech influence is not commonplace.

Maybe casting Silence on a net that the rangers drop on him while riding by. However, IIRC, silence only gives a 50% spell failure chance. Is there a dimensional anchor item that can be used to immobilize (bolas, net, etc)?


The problem with T1/2 is that they have options. Whatever you choose to go after them with, there will potentially be defences against.

...that said, if this is a real scenario, they can't actually go all Shrodinger's Wizard on you, so what matters is what they're actually using. Are they LPA-ing Nightmares for Astral Projection? Does the wizard have Celerity? Does the Druid have Greenbound Summoning? Is the Artificer layering up the metamagics to wreak havok with wands?

Defeating them is going to necessarily involve more information. Without that, anything you try could be foilable.

While I have no hard and fast rules about what is allowed, LPA abuse, greenbound summoning, and excessive metamagic are generally assumed to be disallowed. So far, the only spell I have had to ban in previous games is Wings of Flurry, simply because it trivializes encounters that consist of multiple weaker foes.

I generally run high-powered games with (at least half of them) competent players and I tend to be permissive of many things. I think the best way to describe what is not allowed is anything that must be explained by: "technically, it's legal." I hope that makes sense.


Let us look to the Movies and Television. Often, the hero is a very powerful person that if the BBEG took on in a direct fight, he would loose. (Unless the Hero was weak or plucky, and then it the power of the plot which does the heavy lifting)

Regardless, somehow, the hero manages to get captured...a lot...while often managing to break free of prison later, there is something that almost universally employed to get a hero to surrender and come quietly without resisting.

Hostages. Innocent villagers. Children, puppies. You name it, the hero usually comes willingly to be put in prison only to break out and rescue the hostages later.

It's a time honored trope and ones I don't think DM's use enough of. If your players are running actual hero's, use it against them. Have the Big Bads torture, main and capture innocents and the hero's will come running.

Have them show via divination spells just how powerless their victims are and if the PC's don't disarm and come quietly, we'll just kill one per minute.

Works great on hero's and Paladins.

Not so effective on Neutrals unless it has something personal to do with them. "come will us, druid, or we burn down your grove!"

Totally ineffective against evil's as they may want to watch or help out.


Why overpower PC's when you can have them give up willingly?

:)

Well, the thing is, I don't want this to be an "oh, by the way, you're captured," thing. You could make a virtually undetectable assailant at this CR. Dark Halfling Wolf Totem Barbarian 1/Psion 5/Totemist 4 with 16 Dex can have a +49 to Hide and + 41 to Move Silently (+54/+46 with skill focus and stealthy feats), and don't forget the -10 for sleeping. It can also detect magic (alarm, etc) via soulmelds and dispel via psionics and slip antimagic shackles on anyone. This would be CR 10-11.

I would like the encouter to occur while the players are aware of it, but it will happen later in the day after they have used some resources.

The enemies that are supposed to be enforcers in a police-state nation. They are not technically evil, so hostages are not a relistic option.

I know these are some odd and restrictive circumstances, but I want this capture to be fast-paced and give the players a real chance to fight back, rather than just relying on a few perception checks.

[Randomguy]

Step 1: Block dimensional transportation.
The best solution is to find a way to get them into anchor mist (the hazard from dungeonscape), which will also stop them from getting stuff out of bags of holding. You probably won't be able to do this though, since you can't transport anchor mist, so the next best solution is metamagic rod of chaining + dimensional anchor.

Step 2: Either be able to outrun them or stop them from escaping without teleportation.
You've got mounts, so you can outrun them, but they have flight, so you either need flying mounts or a way to dispel flight. On the bright side, I don't think they're high enough level to get an uncatchable phantom steed yet.

Step 3: Find a way to limit/weaken/stop their casting.
Force concentration checks. Use tanglefoot bags. Attack during bad weather, attack after the group has had a few encounters to drain their slots already.

Step 4: Temporarily incapacitate all enemies.
This is the hard part. You need to either knock them all unconscious or have them paralyzed in some way. The problem is that to do this, you need to actually beat them in combat. You'll need to use lots of battlefield control and stop them from using theirs, so freedom of movement pre-cast would be ideal. Having a few people counterspell would help, too.

Step 5: Prepare for transportation to prison:
To stop them from escaping en route, you'll need teleportation magic, gags, antimagic shackles and a high use rope modifier.

[Malachei]

You can't cast spells with a verbal component while in silence. You can cast spells with the Silent Spell feat applied, though, of course.

[TheDarkSaint]

This sounds like an odd question, but what's the motivation behind them getting captured?

[Callista]

DarkSaint, that's actually a good point. Who's trying to capture the wizard will change how they try it.

Do you want the party to actually get captured, or is this just the strategy that the enemy is going to try to use?

Best way to keep a wizard from casting is to render him unconscious somehow. Flesh to stone->Break Enchantment when you want to let him go is probably the best way. But it doesn't let the player fight back; so maybe just put him in an antimagic field.

[Toy Killer]

Anyway, people do sleep, even wizards. Rope Tricks can be found and dispelled, etc.

Not Elves! :smalltongue:

I'm just going to state the obvious and say AMF.

Can be transported, and pretty much blips out everything a wizard is good for in one swift go... unless they have a contingency, but that's just laws of wizardry and all.

[The Glyphstone]

Not Elves! :smalltongue:

I'm just going to state the obvious and say AMF.

Can be transported, and pretty much blips out everything a wizard is good for in one swift go... unless they have a contingency, but that's just laws of wizardry and all.

AMF is really not as obvious as you'd expect. To start with, it's a Personal-range spell, and a 6th-level spell at that...so to use it at all, you need a 11th-level Tier 1 caster. Once you've got that, casting AMF requires him to then render himself useless for the actual fight, and then physically walk up to the (lower-level) PC to keep him inside the 10ft. radius effect.

It's an excellent defensive spell for, say, a Summoner wizard or a buffzard with allies. As an offensive anti-caster tool, it sucks horribly.

[Malachei]

I'd say the point of AMF is that you can UMD a scroll or staff.

(for instance, as a Rogue 1 / Fighter-type X with Able Learner)

[Grinner]

It's an excellent defensive spell for, say, a Summoner wizard or a buffzard with allies. As an offensive anti-caster tool, it sucks horribly.

It is also perfect for enchanting a pair of manacles or prison door with.

Also, once you've captured him, deprive him of all possessions, including spellbooks, holy symbols, material components, his tongue, and his hands. Check his skin for tattoos as well. Remove them, if he has any.

I imagine there are ways to bypass these measures, but only with certain feats can certain casters make use of existing spells, assuming they can also bypass the anti-magic field. Spell-preparing casters (wizards, archivists, etc.) can also no longer get any new ones.

[bloodtide]

This is not so hard. First though, you need to be in a game that does not allow the '15 minute day cheat' or the 'everything is in stasis until a fight happens cheat' or a 'knowledge roll/spell tells a player everything cheat' and other such cheats that allow a wizard to be over powerful.

1.Wear the wizard down. This is simple enough. You simply force the wizard into combat more then they can handle in a day. No matter what level the wizard is, they only have so many spells. And so many magic item uses and charges and such. So all you need do is push the wizard past that limit. Attack the wizard ten times in one day. For example have the first attack at 5 am, then the next at 7 am, the next at 9am and the next at 11 am and so on. That way the wizard uses up lots of magic. For example, the above three attacks alone would have used up four of the wizards stoneskin spells. Small, but deadly attacks by several groups can wear down a wizard. Summoned monsters work great here. This works even better with a 'nova' type wizard that burns out everything in every combat.

2.Trick the Wizard Going along with number one, you want the wizard to wear themselves down fast, and a great way to do that is to trick them into doing so. Illusions, polymorph and disguises can make a wizard think they are facing different or more powerful foes, and then use up and waste more and powerful magic. An easy example is dress a bunch of wild elves up as drow to get a wizard to use up all his spell resistance by passing stuff. You can also do things like disguise the red dragon as a white one, and let the wizard waste his uber fireballs on it. And again this works great on nova type wizards.

3.Protective Items Simple enough, when you go to fight the wizard protect your troops. There are tons of mundane and magical protections. Anything that can keep even a mook aline for one more round is more then worth it. Protection from energy can keep a foe alive a couple more rounds. And at the high end, you can fill in holes in a creatures defense. Giving a white dragon a ring of fire resistance, for example. This works great vs 'target weakness' type wizards that go crazy over finding a targets weakness and then taking advantage of it.

4.Surprise Attack Don't walk onto a battle field and stand across from each other and wait for the 'fight' all Mortal Combat style. Attack the wizard when they are not ready, when they are asleep or eating or relaxing. You can even do the trick of waiting until the wizard is already in combat with someone else, then attack too.

5.Take out the Wizards support Steal or destroy his spellbooks, destroy his home, kill his familiar or any other creatures or friends or allies. Steal or destroy all of his magic items. This can work out nicely with the wear down attacks as you can have dozens of creatures either steal or destroy the wizards items. Sunder and disarm can work great against a wizard and they often can't do much to resist the attack forms.

6.Enclose the Wizard Wizards work best with open spaces. Lots of spells need room. So simply maneuvering the wizard into a building or a dungeon cuts down on the wizards possible actions. The wizard can't cast a fireball in a 10x10 room without hitting themselves. The 'murder maze' also works good here, where you have foes behind walls or such that can attack the wizard. Also here you can grapple the wizard and tons of creatures can do that. Also plenty of terrain can hinder the wizard. And even tons of mundane attacks like webs or glue or ropes can stop a wizard.

7.Use the Law If the wizard interacts with any civilization, you might be able to use the law against them. Simply have or arrange for the local paladin to arrest the wizard. The crime could be real or fake, it does not matter. Most lawful wizards will allow themselves to be arrested as they 'believe in the system' and even an evil wizard might play along for social or political gains. Then once the wizard is in a cell, with no magic items or such, they are a much easier target for you.

8.The round-a-bout attack Use poison or anything else harmful to weaken the wizard before you attack. If the wizard is mortal, they will need to eat and drink, and it's not that hard to poison that. You can even do a whole scan just to get the wizard to a dinner just to poison them. And even if the wizard does detect poison on everything, you can do the simple mundane trick of poisoning everything. And the wizard might think it's a false positive. And you have the social trick: say the wizard is at the barons dinner and discovers his food is poisoned. The baron thinks that is crazy as the food was made by his best chief, so the wizard is thought of as crazy, and might have to eat the poison to keep the baron happy.

9.Target the Mortality And often forgotten about type of attack. Mortal wizards need things such as clean air to breathe, so attack that. For example, putting the wizard in a room full of smoke or sleep gas. The wizard may have lots of defenses vs attacks, but not much to let them breathe. You can do the same thing with filling a room full of water, or even just darkness(even just normal darkness). A wizard tricked into a underground poll of water in the dark can be in real trouble.

10.The Magic Attack Anti-magic is the obvious thing. As are mind effecting spells like feebelmind.


Now the thing is that a wizard could prepare an escape from any of the above. But your plan has two parts. 1) The wizard is 'not ready', so they are not walking around with a full set of 'adventuring gear and spells' and 2)The wizard can only escape so many times a day. You can set up five traps for a wizard before noon. Each time the wizard just laughs and teleports away. But then you keep after him....and by 5pm or so....the wizard will run out of teleport spells.

[SowZ]

This is not so hard. First though, you need to be in a game that does not allow the '15 minute day cheat' or the 'everything is in stasis until a fight happens cheat' or a 'knowledge roll/spell tells a player everything cheat' and other such cheats that allow a wizard to be over powerful.

1.Wear the wizard down. This is simple enough. You simply force the wizard into combat more then they can handle in a day. No matter what level the wizard is, they only have so many spells. And so many magic item uses and charges and such. So all you need do is push the wizard past that limit. Attack the wizard ten times in one day. For example have the first attack at 5 am, then the next at 7 am, the next at 9am and the next at 11 am and so on. That way the wizard uses up lots of magic. For example, the above three attacks alone would have used up four of the wizards stoneskin spells. Small, but deadly attacks by several groups can wear down a wizard. Summoned monsters work great here. This works even better with a 'nova' type wizard that burns out everything in every combat.

2.Trick the Wizard Going along with number one, you want the wizard to wear themselves down fast, and a great way to do that is to trick them into doing so. Illusions, polymorph and disguises can make a wizard think they are facing different or more powerful foes, and then use up and waste more and powerful magic. An easy example is dress a bunch of wild elves up as drow to get a wizard to use up all his spell resistance by passing stuff. You can also do things like disguise the red dragon as a white one, and let the wizard waste his uber fireballs on it. And again this works great on nova type wizards.

3.Protective Items Simple enough, when you go to fight the wizard protect your troops. There are tons of mundane and magical protections. Anything that can keep even a mook aline for one more round is more then worth it. Protection from energy can keep a foe alive a couple more rounds. And at the high end, you can fill in holes in a creatures defense. Giving a white dragon a ring of fire resistance, for example. This works great vs 'target weakness' type wizards that go crazy over finding a targets weakness and then taking advantage of it.

4.Surprise Attack Don't walk onto a battle field and stand across from each other and wait for the 'fight' all Mortal Combat style. Attack the wizard when they are not ready, when they are asleep or eating or relaxing. You can even do the trick of waiting until the wizard is already in combat with someone else, then attack too.

5.Take out the Wizards support Steal or destroy his spellbooks, destroy his home, kill his familiar or any other creatures or friends or allies. Steal or destroy all of his magic items. This can work out nicely with the wear down attacks as you can have dozens of creatures either steal or destroy the wizards items. Sunder and disarm can work great against a wizard and they often can't do much to resist the attack forms.

6.Enclose the Wizard Wizards work best with open spaces. Lots of spells need room. So simply maneuvering the wizard into a building or a dungeon cuts down on the wizards possible actions. The wizard can't cast a fireball in a 10x10 room without hitting themselves. The 'murder maze' also works good here, where you have foes behind walls or such that can attack the wizard. Also here you can grapple the wizard and tons of creatures can do that. Also plenty of terrain can hinder the wizard. And even tons of mundane attacks like webs or glue or ropes can stop a wizard.

7.Use the Law If the wizard interacts with any civilization, you might be able to use the law against them. Simply have or arrange for the local paladin to arrest the wizard. The crime could be real or fake, it does not matter. Most lawful wizards will allow themselves to be arrested as they 'believe in the system' and even an evil wizard might play along for social or political gains. Then once the wizard is in a cell, with no magic items or such, they are a much easier target for you.

8.The round-a-bout attack Use poison or anything else harmful to weaken the wizard before you attack. If the wizard is mortal, they will need to eat and drink, and it's not that hard to poison that. You can even do a whole scan just to get the wizard to a dinner just to poison them. And even if the wizard does detect poison on everything, you can do the simple mundane trick of poisoning everything. And the wizard might think it's a false positive. And you have the social trick: say the wizard is at the barons dinner and discovers his food is poisoned. The baron thinks that is crazy as the food was made by his best chief, so the wizard is thought of as crazy, and might have to eat the poison to keep the baron happy.

9.Target the Mortality And often forgotten about type of attack. Mortal wizards need things such as clean air to breathe, so attack that. For example, putting the wizard in a room full of smoke or sleep gas. The wizard may have lots of defenses vs attacks, but not much to let them breathe. You can do the same thing with filling a room full of water, or even just darkness(even just normal darkness). A wizard tricked into a underground poll of water in the dark can be in real trouble.

10.The Magic Attack Anti-magic is the obvious thing. As are mind effecting spells like feebelmind.


Now the thing is that a wizard could prepare an escape from any of the above. But your plan has two parts. 1) The wizard is 'not ready', so they are not walking around with a full set of 'adventuring gear and spells' and 2)The wizard can only escape so many times a day. You can set up five traps for a wizard before noon. Each time the wizard just laughs and teleports away. But then you keep after him....and by 5pm or so....the wizard will run out of teleport spells.

A smart wizard will just teleport to a safe plane if they are running out of spells. 2, 3, and 10 can be good tactics but the rest, (while good ideas and good tricks against a number of players,) can also be subverted by divinations.

[bloodtide]

A smart wizard will just teleport to a safe plane if they are running out of spells. 2, 3, and 10 can be good tactics but the rest, (while good ideas and good tricks against a number of players,) can also be subverted by divinations.


If teleport is common in your game, then thinks like teleport blocking spells ans spells like teleport tracer should also be available.

But even if the wizard can teleport and the rest of the world is DMG level 'helpless', you can still do things. For example, endanger the wizards friends and family. Sure the wizard can get away, but many won't if you have a dagger to the throat of a loved one(It's even better if you say ''if you teleport, they die! I will not make the evil overloard mistake of keeping them alive so you can come save them''). You can do the same with property. The wizard can flee, but then loses his home and everything in it.

And you can have fun with thing like the wizard does not want to miss the mage ball at 8pm....so even if he is out of spells they will go as they don't want to miss it.

Divinations are not all powerful. An easy trick is to simply overload them. Set up fifty dangerous things a day for the wizard. So if they cast a divination they will find 'danger everywhere'. And they can't believe in and plan for all the danger.

Another trick is the double(or more) trap. You have one trap that you want the wizard to find...say the assassin waiting on street A, so the wizard goes down street B...and guess what, yup and assassin is there too.

You can also fool some divinations with disguises. For example, dressing the wild elves up as drow...when scryed upon the wizard will see a room full of drow.

And, most importantly, as your not 'waiting for the official fight scene' you can attack the wizard any time 24/7. And no wizard can cast divination spells every single round to warn them of the future.

[Malachei]

Silence will keep the wizard from casting teleport in many cases, which is why paranoid wizards prepare teleport with silent spell applied or craft items. Still, as pointed out above, dimensional anchor and dimensional lock will help. And if you've UMD'd the AMF, the wizard is in trouble.

That said, of course, a wizard has many options and a paranoid wizard will try to prepare for these and similar situations, but you can't prepare for all eventualities.

[Calanon]

This is not so hard. First though, you need to be in a game that does not allow the '15 minute day cheat' or the 'everything is in stasis until a fight happens cheat' or a 'knowledge roll/spell tells a player everything cheat' and other such cheats that allow a wizard to be over powerful.

Yes, unfortunately the rules are specialized for casters... So we have to completely boot all of the rules just to make it fair for everyone else.


1.Wear the wizard down. This is simple enough. You simply force the wizard into combat more then they can handle in a day. No matter what level the wizard is, they only have so many spells. And so many magic item uses and charges and such. So all you need do is push the wizard past that limit. Attack the wizard ten times in one day. For example have the first attack at 5 am, then the next at 7 am, the next at 9am and the next at 11 am and so on. That way the wizard uses up lots of magic. For example, the above three attacks alone would have used up four of the wizards stoneskin spells. Small, but deadly attacks by several groups can wear down a wizard. Summoned monsters work great here. This works even better with a 'nova' type wizard that burns out everything in every combat.

Ah you mean this is the greatest tactic that only works on the Idiot Wizard :smallsmile: Any Wizard worth his mantle would prepare ATLEAST one spell that can get them out of a tight jam (Personally? I like to use Dimension Door if were going for lowest core teleport spell)


2.Trick the Wizard Going along with number one, you want the wizard to wear themselves down fast, and a great way to do that is to trick them into doing so. Illusions, polymorph and disguises can make a wizard think they are facing different or more powerful foes, and then use up and waste more and powerful magic. An easy example is dress a bunch of wild elves up as drow to get a wizard to use up all his spell resistance by passing stuff. You can also do things like disguise the red dragon as a white one, and let the wizard waste his uber fireballs on it. And again this works great on nova type wizards.

Again with this "Nova" type Wizard...
Yeah illusions totally take out Wizards... I mean they have the lowest Will saves right? Cmon dude, this is Giants in The Playground Forum! Expect that the Wizard is the god damn batman!

"Expect the worst, hope for the best"


3.Protective Items Simple enough, when you go to fight the wizard protect your troops. There are tons of mundane and magical protections. Anything that can keep even a mook aline for one more round is more then worth it. Protection from energy can keep a foe alive a couple more rounds. And at the high end, you can fill in holes in a creatures defense. Giving a white dragon a ring of fire resistance, for example. This works great vs 'target weakness' type wizards that go crazy over finding a targets weakness and then taking advantage of it.

Lets upgrade the ring to a ring of Fire Immunity... :smalltongue:

This seems to me like a Magic Vs Magic fight and not a Mundane vs Magic fight... I like it :smallamused: (Yes... give into your hate... release your natural talent... deep inside your veins runs the blood of a dragon... release your hatred young soldier...)

If your going to just try and throw wave after wave of your own men (The brilliant Zapp Brannigan tactic) then don't do it against someone who can do it as well... except better :smalltongue:


4.Surprise Attack Don't walk onto a battle field and stand across from each other and wait for the 'fight' all Mortal Combat style. Attack the wizard when they are not ready, when they are asleep or eating or relaxing. You can even do the trick of waiting until the wizard is already in combat with someone else, then attack too.

I prefer using the Roaming Legend maneuver (Contingent Teleport) It really does stop those would be assassins from trying to kill you :smalltongue:


5.Take out the Wizards support Steal or destroy his spellbooks, destroy his home, kill his familiar or any other creatures or friends or allies. Steal or destroy all of his magic items. This can work out nicely with the wear down attacks as you can have dozens of creatures either steal or destroy the wizards items. Sunder and disarm can work great against a wizard and they often can't do much to resist the attack forms.

No offense, but all of that sounds like a suicide mission (or multiple suicide missions... depending on how you want to do it)


6.Enclose the Wizard Wizards work best with open spaces. Lots of spells need room. So simply maneuvering the wizard into a building or a dungeon cuts down on the wizards possible actions. The wizard can't cast a fireball in a 10x10 room without hitting themselves. The 'murder maze' also works good here, where you have foes behind walls or such that can attack the wizard. Also here you can grapple the wizard and tons of creatures can do that. Also plenty of terrain can hinder the wizard. And even tons of mundane attacks like webs or glue or ropes can stop a wizard.

Why would I fireball when I can Chain Lightning? :smallconfused:

Still spell makes ALL of that stuff worthless... (Baleful Transposition has no Somantic components so its good to go right away)


7.Use the Law If the wizard interacts with any civilization, you might be able to use the law against them. Simply have or arrange for the local paladin to arrest the wizard. The crime could be real or fake, it does not matter. Most lawful wizards will allow themselves to be arrested as they 'believe in the system' and even an evil wizard might play along for social or political gains. Then once the wizard is in a cell, with no magic items or such, they are a much easier target for you.

Your assuming your not in where if you can cast Magic professionally then your pretty well off... and please, PLEASE don't even try and arrest a Lawful stupid Wizard...

On a side note: how do you recommend removing the Wizards already prepared spells? :smallconfused:


8.The round-a-bout attack Use poison or anything else harmful to weaken the wizard before you attack. If the wizard is mortal, they will need to eat and drink, and it's not that hard to poison that. You can even do a whole scan just to get the wizard [I]to a dinner just to poison them. And even if the wizard does detect poison on everything, you can do the simple mundane trick of poisoning everything. And the wizard might think it's a false positive. And you have the social trick: say the wizard is at the barons dinner and discovers his food is poisoned. The baron thinks that is crazy as the food was made by his best chief, so the wizard is thought of as crazy, and might have to eat the poison to keep the baron happy.

and then the Wizard opens up his coat and pulls out his Shaker of Purify Food and Drink and sprinkles it over his food before dining in :smallsmile: Besides what is keeping the Wizard from saying "No thank you, your majesty, I've already eaten well today however I welcome you to consume this wonderful meal" and boom the Baron just poisoned himself... What are they going to do? hold the wizard down trying to feed him a sandwich? :smalltongue:


9.Target the Mortality And often forgotten about type of attack. Mortal wizards need things such as clean air to breathe, so attack that. For example, putting the wizard in a room full of smoke or sleep gas. The wizard may have lots of defenses vs attacks, but not much to let them breathe. You can do the same thing with filling a room full of water, or even just darkness(even just normal darkness). A wizard tricked into a underground poll of water in the dark can be in real trouble.

Wheres that spell that makes it so the Wizard doesn't have to breath... I know it exist :smallconfused: eh it'll come to me later...

(Necklace of Adaptation works)

I'm curious where it says "a Wizard cannot cast spells when surrounded by darkness or in a pool of water"


10.The Magic Attack Anti-magic is the obvious thing. As are mind effecting spells like feeblemind.

and my immediate response is Mind Blank :smallsmile:

*Steps out of AMF* :smallbiggrin: *Throws instantaneous Conjurations into the AMF*


Now the thing is that a wizard could prepare an escape from any of the above. But your plan has two parts. 1) The wizard is 'not ready', so they are not walking around with a full set of 'adventuring gear and spells' and 2)The wizard can only escape so many times a day. You can set up five traps for a wizard before noon. Each time the wizard just laughs and teleports away. But then you keep after him....and by 5pm or so....the wizard will run out of teleport spells.

Well your just assuming that you always know where the Wizard is going and that you just so happen to have the ability to be right where he is going to be.

My god I haven't seen such antics since Willy Coyote tried and sling himself into at the Road Runner :smalltongue:

Took me a while to compile this (the New avatar show was on and I missed it last night so... yeah...) Well good luck and answer some questions if you'd like

[Flickerdart]

The easiest way to capture a Wizard is to give him a ton of books to decipher. Poor bastard will be stuck to the spot for months.

[Seffbasilisk]

With a stick, while he slept.

[Darth Stabber]

Some one who can sneak and grapple effectively while wearing an amulet of AMF, add some support personnel for everything that isn't the actual act of apprehending him, and you're solid. Rogue(able learner)1/barbarianX. My usual go to grappler (totemist) doesn't work in this case, so we have to do it the old fashioned way (though grappling a wizard inside an AMF shouldn't be remarkably difficult). Casting inside an AMF relies upon some very odd tricks, and all of the ones I am aware of can only work for instantaneous effects, which freedom of movement is not. Grappling+AMF is a nearly unbeatable combo, so long as your grappling skill isn't reliant on magic item/spells/spell likes/supernatural abilities. Also darkstalker is really needed for this to operate effectively.

[Calanon]

The easiest way to capture a Wizard is to give him a ton of books to decipher. Poor bastard will be stuck to the spot for months.

... This is the single most hilariously brilliant idea I've ever heard in my entire life... :smallconfused:

[Wings of Peace]

Hire a better Wizard.

[Eisenfavl]

The easiest way to capture a Wizard is to give him a ton of books to decipher. Poor bastard will be stuck to the spot for months.
This is surprisingly true. You don't need to fight a wizard when you have a large number of spells that he wants to read: you can buy the wizard by giving them the spells for free. You suddenly have a wizard on your team, as well.

[Emperor Tippy]

Level 10-12 really isn't that difficult. A Weirdstone to block teleporation and the like, a Greater Shadesteel Golem with Rudimentary Intelligence, Permanent Emanation (Temporal Repair) and Permanent Emanation (AMF) (have it cast the spells from scrolls with it's UMD) could easily capture a level 10-12 wizard.

To imprison him, knock the wizard out (so that he can't make saves any longer), whack him with a Temporal Stasis spell, and drop him into a permanent Prismatic Sphere with a Permanent private sanctum inside of it that is in deep intergalactic space.

Sure, he can still be Wished back to his buddies but there is nothing you can do to prevent that.

[Jack_Simth]

AMF is really not as obvious as you'd expect. To start with, it's a Personal-range spell, and a 6th-level spell at that...so to use it at all, you need a 11th-level Tier 1 caster. Once you've got that, casting AMF requires him to then render himself useless for the actual fight, and then physically walk up to the (lower-level) PC to keep him inside the 10ft. radius effect.

It's an excellent defensive spell for, say, a Summoner wizard or a buffzard with allies. As an offensive anti-caster tool, it sucks horribly.
There's a way around this: Rings of Spell Storing.

[Zonugal]

I tend to think these types of discussions are pretty awful in that there is never a model to use in place of the Wizard. Without a sample wizard character stated out, these discussions just become speculation as the pro-wizard side merely suggests that a wizard will have every spell, every contingency and every magic item within their grasp at all times.

[Darth Stabber]

I tend to think these types of discussions are pretty awful in that there is never a model to use in place of the Wizard. Without a sample wizard character stated out, these discussions just become speculation as the pro-wizard side merely suggests that a wizard will have every spell, every contingency and every magic item within their grasp at all times.

Actually, these discussions are productive, the list of contingencies and magic items are useful for figuring what could mess up these plans. We reason out how to catch even the most paranoid wizard.

Any answers to mundane sneaking (with darkstalker) followed by AMF amulet+grappling?

[Emperor Tippy]

Any answers to mundane sneaking (with darkstalker) followed by AMF amulet+grappling?

Mindsight. Shrink Item hat.

[Jack_Simth]

Any answers to mundane sneaking (with darkstalker) followed by AMF amulet+grappling?
Cross-class ranks in Spot, spot-boosting items, and Moment of Prescience, I imagine... although, come to that, the Wizard in question, per the OP, is going to be somewhere between about 14th and 16th, so 8th level spells may be out of the question. Hmm.

Ah, Simulacrum of something with Lifesense (Libris Mortis) or Mindsight (Lords of Madness) with orders to warn of things unseen that come near.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Okay, so there are some great ideas here that I will use.

I think, for the first part I will use SotAO mystic rangers that multiclass a bit (with a few scrolls of Domensional Anchor and DDoor, if necessary).

As for avoiding the 15-minute work day, thankfully, my players are somewhat compliant in that aspect. I have made it clear to them that constantly resing and restarting will make the world go on without them, and their greed for exp/loot has trained them to go until the actually need to refuel. Although the complete leck of backstories (in spite of constant requests) sort of stymies the coercion angle.

I think the scenario will include multiple bandit-style fights in a war-torn country, ending with them being confronted (along with a group of bandits) by a full-strength unit of the rangers. Interrupting them mid-combat should definately give some surprise element. Also, the construct backup angle can definately work as the country in employ of the rangers is meant to be one of the more stable areas after an immense war over the entire continent.

As for the reason for this capture, I plan to have the players undergo an escape scenario. I have a plan for if they all get captured or just 1-2 of them get captured, but it won't really work if none get captured.


I apreciate the help, everyone. Thank you.

[Calanon]

Actually, these discussions are productive, the list of contingencies and magic items are useful for figuring what could mess up these plans. We reason out how to catch even the most paranoid wizard.

Yeah, I kind of wish that a moderator would just sticky a Caster Vs Mundane Thread that can be used to figure out how to completely pin down a Caster :smalltongue:

Ah yes... a man can dream I suppose :smallredface:

[Cidolfas]

I know Antimagic Field has already been mentioned, but on a similar note there is the antimagic ray spell from Spell Compendium, which is essentially a single target version of AMF. I don't recall if its duration is quite the same, but it's all the juicy debuffing of AMF without the self-crippling.

[Darth Stabber]

Although the complete leck of backstories (in spite of constant requests) sort of stymies the coercion angle.


The key to that is simple. Allow the players to take flaw only if they have presented you with a backstory. The extra feat is too tempting to ignore, and since it is a variant rule, you are well within your rights as a GM to revoke variant rules. You could do the same thing with traits, though I doubt they are quite tempting enough.

I usually instead just give away a feat related benefit, and allow flaws as default. Example a sorcerer with arcane disciple who has presented with their backstory (preferably written, but verbal will do) will also get the domain power. It usually has something to do with their background, but not always. Like a swordsage that lives in a kingdom full of necromancers got access to enough Ironheart to get Ironheart surge, since necro is all about the Debuffs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Typical contingencies a mid-level wizard has access to and probably will be using if he is sufficiently paranoid:

"Tinfoil Hat". This is a cone of adamantine large enough to cover him completely, with a Shrink Item cast on it. Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell, with a duration of Days/Level, so the only limitation is the cost involved in purchasing an Adamantine cone large enough to encompass him. AMF automatically represses the shrink item, blocking LoS, and allowing the wizard to cast whatever he wants to from within the cone. This prevents most 'AMF + Grapple' suggestions, and is available by level 5 without cheese, or possibly by level 1 with extreme cheese.

"Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect". This is a 6th level spell, so he'll need to be 11th level to pull this off. It's pretty much 'no, you don't get first shot at me. Even if you make your first shot, I still get an action first'. And trust me, his one action is going to hurt a LOT more than yours will. Assuming he doesn't DimDoor/Teleport away

"Contingency DimDoor upon anyone casting MDJ within range of me". No, you aren't allowed to debuff me.

Polymorph into Dire Tortoise. No, you don't get a surprise round. Not even then. Available by level 7, with sufficient CL boosters to hit the HD limit.

Polymorph into War Troll, share with familiar. This counters the 'put down the wand, or the familiar gets it'. Basically, your familiar can now eat their face off. Don't forget, it still has Improved Evasion, so you can't just Fireball it. Also available by level 7. War Troll can be substituted with any HD-appropriate obnoxious monster within the limitations and parameters of the Polymorph spell. If one is an Elan, this can get stupid quick.

"I don't have to take this anymore, I'm going home". DimDoor, Teleport, Teleport without error, Plane Shift... depending on the level of the wizard, it can be difficult to impossible to keep him in one place long enough to capture him. This gets exponentially worse if he uses Planar Binding, Lesser to bind a Nightmare for Astral Projection. Now you aren't even trying to capture the wizard, but merely his projection. His actual body is in another castle plane. PB,L is a 5th level spell, so available by level 9

Necklace of Adaptation. For a mere 9k, you become immune to gas-borne toxins, drowning, asphyxiation, or anything else that tries to hamper his breathing.

Ring of Free Movement. Immunity to grappling, and a bunch of other things

Protection from Evil. Immunity to mind-affecting. Well, it's repressing mind-affecting, so it might as well be immune. This is obtainable by level 1.

It requires level 15, barring extreme cheese, to get Mind Blank, and you can't afford Third Eye: Conceal much before then either, unless you wreck the economy with infinite gold loops (wall of iron, flesh to salt, etc...). However, this is also immunity to divination as well as mind-affecting.

Periapt of Health/Proof against Poision. According to the MIC, you can combine these two into one item, making you immune to disease and poisons.

Celerity. Once I hit 7th level, I have the option to, at any time, get a standard action. One is all I will ever need. You had best make sure that your first shot is in the surprise round, and it completely disables me. Too bad by this time, the wizard is going to be in Dire Tortoise form and be immune to surprise. This one spell completely negates any plot to take a wizard by surprise.

Prying Eyes. You don't need the Greater version to be damn hard to surprise, because you're walking around in a cloud of eyeballs.

Robe of Eyes. Improved Uncanny Dodge = not denied dex bonus to AC when flat-footed and can't be flanked.

Greater Mirror Image. Having 7 replenishing images as a swift action means melee will find it nearly impossible to hit the right one. You've got a 12.5% chance of hitting the right one. Have a nice day. Accessible by level 7.

Flight. Overland Flight is available by level 9. By 12th level, Phantom Steed has Airwalk and by 14th it has Flight. With a bit of CL boosting, he could have a flying mount earlier. Basically, if you can't reach him, you can't hurt him.

This is, by no means, an exhaustive list, but these are the most common defenses a reasonably paranoid wizard can be expected to have access to by or around 10th level. Many of these give him flat immunities, others just shore up defenses.

[Calanon]

Like a swordsage that lives in a kingdom full of necromancers got access to enough Ironheart to get Ironheart surge, since necro is all about the Debuffs.

LIES! ITS ALSO ABOUT DESTROYING ONES FRIENDS AND FAMILIES IN THE MOST HORRIFYING WAY IMAGINABLE! (Personal experiences tells me that a person would rather be energy drained then: killed, reanimated and then set loose to kill there family) :smallamused:

[Randomguy]

<snip>

All true, but remember the people doing the capturing here are no bog-standard fighters. We're talking SOTAO mystic rangers. Between level 4 and 10, these guys ARE lightning warriors. Any contingency a wizard their level has, they can have (but at half caster level most of the time).

Also, contingencied celerity against any attack just isn't a sustainable contingency: You'd need to recast those two spells between every single combat for them to be effective.

As for casting celerity without a contingency, the solution is to interrupt their interrupt with another celerity, and do something to disrupt their casting with your time, or at least to prevent them from escaping.

Doesn't the tin foil hat kind of leave you trapped? If they hit you with dimensional anchor first, then you can't escape. And even if you do escape, then you're leaving your allies behind. And staying put just takes you out of combat, so the enemies now outnumber the rest of your allies. They can just deal with you later.

Greater mirror image can be countered by tremorsense, a spell that's available 4 levels earlier. (for mystic rangers, anyways). There's also the entire mage slayer line of feats or just blind fight, which gives you 75% chance of hitting by closing your eyes before you attack.

Dire tortoise form just isn't practical. Polymorph doesn't last long enough to be one all day.

[Zonugal]

Actually, these discussions are productive, the list of contingencies and magic items are useful for figuring what could mess up these plans. We reason out how to catch even the most paranoid wizard.

But see, nothing practical comes from this as a paranoid wizard is the least practical character you could use. There is never a hard limit set on feats or wealth, which means they function beyond the theoretical. They act merely as an answer to an immediate "what-if" without consistency or solid form.

For a true "mundane vs. wizard" battle a standard wizard should be constructed who fits "an average wizard in an average D&D world."

The wizard already has nearly every advantage, I don't see why they need limitless options as well...

[TheDarkSaint]

DM fiat...


"You wake up in a dark room. You are wearing an itchy woolen tunic with no hose. Your stuff is gone. You don't remember the last 24 hours.

What do you do? What...do you do?"


Ambush them in a wild magic area. Watch the fun :)

[Emperor Tippy]

But see, nothing practical comes from this as a paranoid wizard is the least practical character you could use. There is never a hard limit set on feats or wealth, which means they function beyond the theoretical. They act merely as an answer to an immediate "what-if" without consistency or solid form.

For a true "mundane vs. wizard" battle a standard wizard should be constructed who fits "an average wizard in an average D&D world."

The wizard already has nearly every advantage, I don't see why they need limitless options as well...

A level 20 wizard can shuffle her feats around daily with no cost. You do have your Ice Assassin Revered Elder Phaerimm with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos as some of it's spells known sitting in one of your Bags of Holding, right? With it's Wish's you can also shuffle your magic items to whatever you want them to be at any given time.

Then there is creating an Ice Assassin of a deity with Alter Reality and having it make all the spells you want that exist in the game permanent on you.

Then there is your entire army of Ice Assassins of yourself that you have hanging around and that have chosen different spells for the day as needed.

The reason that level 20 wizards are so powerful and difficult to kill is precisely because they have limitless options.

[Malachei]

The Ice Assassin example is a mostly theoretical one.

Once you're at that point (*) and the DM does not houserule it out, it is pretty much time to start a new campaign for the majority of groups.

(*) just say it aloud, three times: "Ice Assassin Revered Elder Phaerimm with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos"

I think this is a special case. If a player came to me with this, I'd say "congratulations, you've found a RAW loophole. Now put it in the box with the other 1325 loopholes, and get back to actual play." *sigh*

[Emperor Tippy]

The Ice Assassin example is a mostly theoretical one.

Once you're at that point (*) and the DM does not houserule it out, it is pretty much time to start a new campaign for the majority of groups.

(*) just say it aloud, three times: "Ice Assassin Revered Elder Phaerimm with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos"

*sigh*

That is just the easiest way to shuffle your feats on a whim, it's not the only way.

Get a CL 50 Scroll of Gate (use a Wish from a Solar that you previously gated in), Shapechange into a Liltu, use your CL 50 Scroll of Gate to bring in 2 Solars. Have one wish you up another CL 50 scroll of Gate, have the other Wish you up a scroll of Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos. Repeat (or use a higher CL Gate scroll to bring in more Solars so you can get your Embrace/Shun scrolls faster) as desired.

Then there is a Simulacrum of a Psion with Psychic Reformation, although that hits you with an XP cost.


I think this is a special case. If a player came to me with this, I'd say "congratulations, you've found a RAW loophole. Now put it in the box with the other 1325 loopholes, and get back to actual play." *sigh*
It's not a loophole, Ice Assassin is intended to create an army of high level individuals under your absolute command. It's the spell performing, and being used, exactly as intended.

Even if you enforce the characters actually having the material component on hand and disallow gating the creature in for a blood sample, and don't allow the characters to make copies of themselves; all they have to do is go and kill a single Solar, Pit Fiend, Dragon, high level enemy, or whatever else they want to copy, hit it's remains with Gentle Repose/Quintessence, and then they have enough material components to make an entire army of that creature. And if you want to disallow making copies of dead creatures, then the players could still imprison whatever they want copies of.

And there is always copying yourself and then having your copy do those things that cost XP, you can spend 5,000 XP and then have your Ice Assassin burn all it's XP on spell casting or item crafting.

[Malachei]

That is just the easiest way to shuffle your feats on a whim, it's not the only way.

Get a CL 50 Scroll of Gate (use a Wish from a Solar that you previously gated in), Shapechange into a Liltu, use your CL 50 Scroll of Gate to bring in 2 Solars. Have one wish you up another CL 50 scroll of Gate, have the other Wish you up a scroll of Embrace the Dark Chaos/Shun the Dark Chaos. Repeat (or use a higher CL Gate scroll to bring in more Solars so you can get your Embrace/Shun scrolls faster) as desired.

Then there is a Simulacrum of a Psion with Psychic Reformation, although that hits you with an XP cost.

But the OP's question is about actual game play at level 10-12.

I know that you love all kinds of optimization shenanigans. These can be fun to read, but I think this one does not really address the OP's question, unless he's interested in blowing up his campaign.

Also, I really think acquiring CL 50 scrolls should be an adventure by itself. And people writing CL 50 scrolls would probably have everything they need, so why should they share the scrolls, so some mid-level wizard can get himself invincible / god-like?


and being used, exactly as intended.

Knowing this would require you to either be the game designer or speak to the game designers, or read the mind of the game designer. In the real-world, unfortunately, talking about RAI is mostly speculation.

[Emperor Tippy]

But the OP's question is about actual game play at level 10-12.

I know that you love all kinds of optimization shenanigans. These can be fun to read, but I think this one does not really address the OP's question, unless he's interested in blowing up his campaign.
I answered the OP's question earlier, I was responding to another poster who was talking about something different.


Also, I really think acquiring CL 50 scrolls should be an adventure by itself. And people writing CL 50 scrolls would probably have everything they need, so why should they share the scrolls, so some mid-level wizard can get himself invincible / god-like?
Buy a Scroll of Gate (or Scribe one yourself), Shapechange into a Nightmare, use Astral Projection, use your scroll of gate to Gate in a Solar to Wish up your Embrace/Shun scroll, dismiss your Astral Projection, use Astral Projection again, use your reformed Scroll of Gate to again Gate in a Solar to use it's Wish.

Done with pure core (except Embrace/Shun) and pure RAW. Thank you Astral Projection not using up consumable resources.


Knowing this would require you to either be the game designer or speak to the game designers, or read the mind of the game designer. In the real-world, unfortunately, talking about RAI is mostly speculation.
Frostburn has an entire dungeon and adventure based that is the lair of the initial creator of the Ice Assassin spell and it goes into some detail about exactly what he intended the spell to do and what it does do. The RAW is also not remotely ambiguous or even a bit fishy.

And there is always Simulacrum, which is core and does the exact same thing (at least for the purposes I am putting it to).

[Malachei]

I answered the OP's question earlier, I was responding to another poster who was talking about something different.

So all of this is off-topic... *shrugs and closes case*

[ShneekeyTheLost]

All true, but remember the people doing the capturing here are no bog-standard fighters. We're talking SOTAO mystic rangers. Between level 4 and 10, these guys ARE lightning warriors. Any contingency a wizard their level has, they can have (but at half caster level most of the time).Close, but no cigar. There's a major problem which prevents them from utilizing any Polycheeze... they have 1/2 CL, which means their shape options are vastly more limited.

It's also an obsolete point, since PB,L + Nightmare = you can never truly capture me. No, not even then. It doesn't matter if the SOTAO mystic rangers have access to a large portion of the Wizard's tricks, they're targeting a projection, not the actual wizard. Even if they win, they still don't get the target.


Also, contingencied celerity against any attack just isn't a sustainable contingency: You'd need to recast those two spells between every single combat for them to be effective.My Rope Trick says there is only one combat per day. Your point?


As for casting celerity without a contingency, the solution is to interrupt their interrupt with another celerity, and do something to disrupt their casting with your time, or at least to prevent them from escaping. Nested interrupts... glah, I knew there was a reason I quit playing M:TG. Suffice to say, the Wizard has access to better tricks. Like Dire Tortoise to prevent surprise, then simply teleport away before they can catch him. Finding him is also problematic.


Doesn't the tin foil hat kind of leave you trapped? If they hit you with dimensional anchor first, then you can't escape. And even if you do escape, then you're leaving your allies behind. And staying put just takes you out of combat, so the enemies now outnumber the rest of your allies. They can just deal with you later.The problem lies in hitting him with a dimensional anchor first, since you aren't going to surprise him. Besides, there's this spell... it's called Dispel Magic. Works wonders at getting rid of things like Dimensional Anchor.


Greater mirror image can be countered by tremorsense, a spell that's available 4 levels earlier. (for mystic rangers, anyways). There's also the entire mage slayer line of feats or just blind fight, which gives you 75% chance of hitting by closing your eyes before you attack. Wrong. Tremorsense won't help you discern, since GMI fools even Tremorsense. Mage Slayer is fun, but it doesn't let you discern between illusions and reality.


Dire tortoise form just isn't practical. Polymorph doesn't last long enough to be one all day.I respectfully disagree. There's plenty of ways of getting it to work just fine, although some of them require some rather intricate hoops to jump through.

[Jack_Simth]

Typical contingencies a mid-level wizard has access to and probably will be using if he is sufficiently paranoid:
Note that you have a couple of mutually incompatible things in here.

For instance: Unless you're grabbing Craft Contingent Spell, you can't have two Contingencies... and with Craft Contingent Spell, each one has a noticeable cost (GP, XP, and time).

If you're Polymorphed into a Dire Tortise, you're going to have some issues riding around on your Phantom Steed.

Plus, of course, you're running through spells like water, and relying on a way to get no more than one encounter per day.

Of course, it doesn't matter, as the DM is trying to capture a specific player... who probably isn't going to be going into the theoretical optimization mode.

So really, the way to do this is to trick the player, not the character. Walk them into a prepared trap.

Hire a Cleric/Dweomerkeeper (Complete Divine Web Enhancement version) to make a Supernatural Forbiddance by way of Miracle in an area, so that teleporting out is not possible.

Put an AMF trap at the gate, so that Astral Projections can't get in (assuming the player actually does this; I don't think I've seen a Wizard try it in an actual game... or just don't bother; Stoning the Astral Projection is almost as effective as Stoning the Wizard, really... and gives you time to locate the real one).

Have your attackers ready the beat-down.

Put out some rumors of the appropriate bait being in the area.

[Malachei]

My Rope Trick says there is only one combat per day.

My Transdimensional Spell feat says this is a very dangerous insurance you're relying on here.

[IncoherentEssay]

Mage Slayer is fun, but it doesn't let you discern between illusions and reality.

From the Mage Slayer feat chain, Pierce Magical Concealment does exactly that, even specifically stating that you can automatically pick out the right target from Mirror Images. Now whether Polymorph counts as a spell that grants a bonus to AC (due to the likely increased Natural armor bonus) for Pierce Magical Protection is a bit unclear. Personally i'd rule yes, since casters have far too few non-caster counters as is, but thats just an opinion.
Of course, none of those are of much use without a reliable stun/daze lock to shut the caster down. Or enough spellthieves with an ACF (from dragon magazine #353) to drag the CL all the way to 0 :smalltongue:.


A more redily available solution is simply outnumbering the mage with dedicated dispellers (Arcane Mastery, Master Abjurer, Inquisition Domain, Elven Spell lore, etc.) If heavy +CL shenanigans are in play, uncap the dispel with Reserves of Strenght cheese and use the same tricks yourself.
The thing about NPCs is that they can afford to go one-trick-pony (from an in-world logic perspective), since unlike PCs they don't need to deal with all the various daily hazards of the dungeon-delving adventuring life. Their 'crippling' overspecialization is even beneficial for social stability due to being much better at shutting down power-tripping casters than indulging in such behaviour themselves :smalltongue:.

[ScionoftheVoid]

-snip-It's not a loophole, Ice Assassin is intended to create an army of high level individuals under your absolute command. It's the spell performing, and being used, exactly as intended.-snip-

I thought the spell was intended to make, you know, assassins? I'm fairly sure there's a clause in the spell that the created creature only wishes to kill the original creature it is created from, in fact. Edit: Checked, there is.


My Transdimensional Spell feat says this is a very dangerous insurance you're relying on here.

That feat can't actually do that, unfortunately. Edit to clarify: Rope Trick does not move you to the Ethereal Plane or the Plane of Shadow, the two planes coexistent with the Material (except for the Astral, obviously). IIRC, the feat only allows crossing to a coexistent plane, and might be even more limited than that.

[Malachei]

That feat can't actually do that, unfortunately.

Please explain the basis for your statement.

My reading of the feat description says it can:


A transdimensional spell has its full normal effect on (...) creatures within an extradimensional space in the spell's area. Such creatures include (...) creatures within the extradimensional space of a rope trick {Scrubbed}

[ScionoftheVoid]

Please explain the basis for your statement.

My reading of the feat description says it can:

(emphasis mine)

Oh, apparently I was remembering that incorrectly. Sorry, never mind.

[Malachei]

No problem. Shooting from the hip looks cool, at least.

[ScionoftheVoid]

No problem. Shooting from the hip looks cool, at least.

Umm, you might also want to take down that text, if it's the exact text of the feat.

[ericgrau]

Similar to what Zonugal and others said, there is a way but it changes; you can have a couple things but not everything at once. Not even close. So I'll be as vague as the question: You beat him up and then restrain him. Though really in 99.99% of campaigns I've seen or heard about it's the same as beating everyone else. You send in enough monsters of high enough strength. Save the rest for theoretical optimization.

Because there are counters to everything and counters to every counter. A thwarted rope trick in a well defended area is a TPK. But then X counters that, Y counters X, etc. But you can't choose everything and so in reality wizards die all the time in actual campaigns. That shouldn't be news to anyone, but somehow people forget that in discussions.

If the OP wasn't so vague and was talking about a specific situation then we could give some options that are often good. They might not always work but like I said that doesn't matter at all. With so little info a lot could changed based on the details like level.

[Jack_Simth]

Umm, you might also want to take down that text, if it's the exact text of the feat.
While I'm not a lawyer, it's entirely probable that the use, there, constitutes fair use - the poster isn't claiming ownership, and it's expected to be a fairly simple matter to say that it's a portion of text for the purposes of a review of the product.

[ScionoftheVoid]

While I'm not a lawyer, it's entirely probable that the use, there, constitutes fair use - the poster isn't claiming ownership, and it's expected to be a fairly simple matter to say that it's a portion of text for the purposes of a review of the product.

Maybe so, but the new phrasing only cuts out things which were irrelevant anyway and is even more safe than what was there before. Why would you ever not be on the safe side if it costs nothing? Kind of hypocritical from someone who didn't fact-check before posting, but I don't have the book available at the moment and remembered some silly limitation on the feat being brought up previously (I think it was being one-way, actually, now that I think back). And I didn't want anyone to beat me to the punch, largely.:smalltongue: It's fine either way, it was just a suggestion.

[Jack_Simth]

Maybe so, but the new phrasing only cuts out things which were irrelevant anyway and is even more safe than what was there before. Why would you ever not be on the safe side if it costs nothing? Mostly because ultimately, it does cost something: most courts use precedent in some way or another, and what's expected behaviour often ends up being what the courts require in the edge cases or potential grey areas of law, and so being overcautious in such things very slowly shifts what's required of people in one direction or another. Personally, I'd rather it shift in the direction of "say what you want", myself.

[Zonugal]

A level 20 wizard can shuffle her feats around daily with no cost. You do have your Ice Assassin Revered Elder Phaerimm with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos as some of it's spells known sitting in one of your Bags of Holding, right? With it's Wish's you can also shuffle your magic items to whatever you want them to be at any given time.

Then there is creating an Ice Assassin of a deity with Alter Reality and having it make all the spells you want that exist in the game permanent on you.

Then there is your entire army of Ice Assassins of yourself that you have hanging around and that have chosen different spells for the day as needed.

The reason that level 20 wizards are so powerful and difficult to kill is precisely because they have limitless options.

Besides not showing a tenth level Wizard, to which this discussion was primarily geared towards, you have provided a purely theoretical build which will nearly never see actual play.

This is the fallacy of the uber-mage. The more theoretical a wizard gets the more paranoid they'll become to a point in which they no longer exist in any practical essence. If we were to take every paranoid wizard to its true limit than they would never leave their own demi-plane. They'd never have a reason for it and thus they'd never instigate a reason for a foe to hunt them down. If you wrap a character in enough protection & safety they begin to close themselves off from the world.

So yes, your hermit of a Wizard is indestructible. But he's also effectively nonexistent in his own world out of his own fear-based isolation.

[Tvtyrant]

AMF is really not as obvious as you'd expect. To start with, it's a Personal-range spell, and a 6th-level spell at that...so to use it at all, you need a 11th-level Tier 1 caster. Once you've got that, casting AMF requires him to then render himself useless for the actual fight, and then physically walk up to the (lower-level) PC to keep him inside the 10ft. radius effect.

It's an excellent defensive spell for, say, a Summoner wizard or a buffzard with allies. As an offensive anti-caster tool, it sucks horribly.

This is why I play an Arcane Archer and send the AMFs to them. It centers where the arrow lands, so they cannot simply dodge the arrow. Fire at their feet and then cast Wall of Stone around the AMF. If you can get the dome to go over their heads, they are trapped until the AMF ends.

[AgentofHellfire]

This is why I play an Arcane Archer and send the AMFs to them. It centers where the arrow lands, so they cannot simply dodge the arrow. Fire at their feet and then cast Wall of Stone around the AMF. If you can get the dome to go over their heads, they are trapped until the AMF ends.


To which I respond Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm). It's a fourth-level spell, so by 10th level a wizard should have at least 3 (probably 4, assuming the wizard isn't a race with an Int penalty and got a Headband of Intellect, which is sort of like getting a +X Sword in "basic") spell slots that could hold it--not a major assumption, in other words. One casting around you, the archer, puts your arrows pinging his sphere, which you could kill with an anti-magic field, but it'd start out centered around you, plus it'd waste your AMF uses.

[Calanon]

Besides not showing a tenth level Wizard, to which this discussion was primarily geared towards, you have provided a purely theoretical build which will nearly never see actual play.

You are aware that at about 11th level a Wizard can start casting 9th level spells? (If built properly of course)


This is the fallacy of the uber-mage. The more theoretical a wizard gets the more paranoid they'll become to a point in which they no longer exist in any practical essence. If we were to take every paranoid wizard to its true limit than they would never leave their own demi-plane. They'd never have a reason for it and thus they'd never instigate a reason for a foe to hunt them down. If you wrap a character in enough protection & safety they begin to close themselves off from the world.

Actually if we were to take every paranoid Wizard to its truest limit then we'd end up with Vecna :smalltongue:

To be even more accurate we'd end up putting a lot of the Netherese Arcanist into this category, specifically: Karsus (****ing insane if you actually read his backstory), Ioulaum (Eh... Not to paranoid... a little crazy though...), Larloch (Probably more then all the rest), Aumver (Read his section in Champions of Ruin), and especially Telamont (His son is a friken Demigod, he has the right to be paranoid)

Hell we can even add some Thayan Red Wizards into the mix (Szass Tam to be specific) but the major point is, is that a LOT of Wizards are crazy as hell and would most likely make an army of Ice Assassin's in a heartbeat (Lets not even discuss what the God's might do with such techniques)


So yes, your hermit of a Wizard is indestructible. But he's also effectively nonexistent in his own world out of his own fear-based isolation.

To true I'm afraid... But honestly? How do you challenge the truly paranoid Wizard? Seriously... With them being able to pull off Contingent spells for almost every single little situation why would they ever want to fight you or anyone else for that matter. Personally this is why I believe when Archwizards fight they resort to subterfuge rather then a direct confrontation (Since a direct fight between a Non-Divine Vecna (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=103) and Karsus (http://community.wizards.com/cheyne_daak/blog/2009/09/09/stats_for_karsus) would overall result in the destruction of so many planes that whatever they are fighting over wouldn't even matter at that point...)

So does the Uber-Paranoid Wizard exist in D&D? Yes, to an extent but not to the point of completely cutting themselves off from the entire world (Except for Telamont, who hid away in the (Demi)Plane of Shadow for a good millennium)

Does Tippy go overboard with his world domination schemes? You bet your friken ass he does (Even going to the point of setting the new bar for the Paranoid Wizard) I mean if most Wizards thought of the stuff Tippy did then Toril would be bowing before there new Shade overlords in a matter of weeks and Vecna would be ruling the entire Multiverse in a matter of days instead of a matter of settings. In conclusion: Tippy's schemes most definitely do equal win... However this doesn't mean you should be doing the whole Ice Assassin trick the moment the DM looks away or start gating in a Solar Army just to fuel your Spells... I guess to summarize this: Think before you go off using one of Tippy's tricks, Sure it works by RAW but the point is, is that it was meant to see as much play as Pun Pun or The Wish/The Word.

If I'm lucky this'll count as 1 whole gp :smallbiggrin:

[Zonugal]

But honestly? How do you challenge the truly paranoid Wizard? Seriously... With them being able to pull off Contingent spells for almost every single little situation why would they ever want to fight you or anyone else for that matter.

This is where we would fall into agreement, if by different paths.

I can't imagine someone fighting a paranoid wizard as I can't imagine a situation in which the paranoid wizard provokes someone else.

It might be that I don't really subscribe to higher-level D&D (I tend to stick around 6th - 10th level), so when I see a 20th level super arch-mage I just get bored as they don't present a credible character in the fiction that I prescribe to be my D&D.

A 20th level wizard, in my mind, is sort of like Dr. Manhattan. They are powerful in every way and indestructible, but completely closed off from their own world.

For this type of challenge I would build an average wizard that could be plopped into an average D&D campaign. A 10th level wizard who is the dean at a magic university. You build him as a true character, give him his typically prepared spells and provide him items to fit his wealth (perhaps that he has gained on past adventures). Than it wouldn't be a test of counter-counter-contigiency-counter, but rather a test of how immediately versatile a wizard can be right off the bat.

[Emperor Tippy]

This is where we would fall into agreement, if by different paths.

I can't imagine someone fighting a paranoid wizard as I can't imagine a situation in which the paranoid wizard provokes someone else.

It might be that I don't really subscribe to higher-level D&D (I tend to stick around 6th - 10th level), so when I see a 20th level super arch-mage I just get bored as they don't present a credible character in the fiction that I prescribe to be my D&D.

A 20th level wizard, in my mind, is sort of like Dr. Manhattan. They are powerful in every way and indestructible, but completely closed off from their own world.

For this type of challenge I would build an average wizard that could be plopped into an average D&D campaign. A 10th level wizard who is the dean at a magic university. You build him as a true character, give him his typically prepared spells and provide him items to fit his wealth (perhaps that he has gained on past adventures). Than it wouldn't be a test of counter-counter-contigiency-counter, but rather a test of how immediately versatile a wizard can be right off the bat.

And if the OP bothered to say "I have a player with this build, I want to capture the character, what do I need to do?" then you would have a point.

He didn't, he just said he wanted to capture a party of tier one casters in the level 10-12 range. That can be done relatively easily (Wish them into prison, use a Weirdstone to shut down teleportation/dimensional travel and attack them normally with an army, throw a Rudimentary Intelligence Greater Shadesteel Golem with permanent emanation AMF and permanent emanation Temporal Repair at them, throw a higher level caster at them, etc.).

If the players are paranoid they can make it far more difficult, potentially impossible, to capture them through early access to 9th level magic but otherwise it's not that difficult.

By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

At level 20 a wizard will be able to do things like completely change his feat selection, have every spell in the game in his spellbook, be able to get any magic item or ability he wants pretty much on whim, etc.

There is a very good reason that I, and fluff for that matter, treat killing such a wizard as an entire campaign that can span multiple planes and take decades or centuries to come to fruition. And you still stand a very good chance of failure.

[Slipperychicken]

By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.


Tippy, that post is epic. May I sig this part?

[Emperor Tippy]

Tippy, that post is epic. May I sig this part?

Fine with me.

[Tvtyrant]

To which I respond Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm). It's a fourth-level spell, so by 10th level a wizard should have at least 3 (probably 4, assuming the wizard isn't a race with an Int penalty and got a Headband of Intellect, which is sort of like getting a +X Sword in "basic") spell slots that could hold it--not a major assumption, in other words. One casting around you, the archer, puts your arrows pinging his sphere, which you could kill with an anti-magic field, but it'd start out centered around you, plus it'd waste your AMF uses.

I see two problems with that strategy. First, as an AA you likely have high dexterity and it is a reflex save. Second, it assumes the opponent goes first when I am also a caster and have the same opportunities for boosting my Initiative. I am not saying there is a sure chance of success, but I have done it on several occasions. If you have a divine caster you can leave the top open and have your ally cost Cometfall into the space.

[Malachei]

And if the OP bothered to say "I have a player with this build, I want to capture the character, what do I need to do?" then you would have a point. He didn't, he just said he wanted to capture a party of tier one casters in the level 10-12 range.

Exactly:

The OP specified he wants to capture a party of level 10-12.

You keep talking about capturing a level 20 wizard.

We all know this is hard to do, but it is not the OP's question, which is really described on sufficient detail to talk about.

So again, I think this you're taking this thread off topic just to address your ice assassin, shadesteel golem, chaos shuffle, etc. shenanigans.

[Calanon]

Exactly:

The OP specified he wants to capture a party of level 10-12.

You keep talking about capturing a level 20 wizard.

We all know this is hard to do, but it is not the OP's question, which is really described on sufficient detail to talk about.

So again, you're taking this thread off topic just to address your ice assassin, shadesteel golem, chaos shuffle, etc. shenanigans.

Circle Magic! it makes this entirely moot! :smallbiggrin:

[Malachei]

Circle Magic! it makes this entirely moot! :smallbiggrin:

Which one? Hathran? Feat? If not, source?

[Calanon]

Which one? Hathran? Feat? If not, source?

Any Specialist Wizard5 / Red Wizard6 can cast a single 9th level spell... Lets make it an Ice Assassin spell.

Get 5 other Wizards w/ Tattoo Focus to give up a single 2nd level spell (or as many levels to get a spell heightened up to a 9th)

Cast Rary's Arcane Conversion and exchange your heightened Cantrip for a 9th level spell in your spellbook.

[Malachei]

Any Specialist Wizard5 / Red Wizard6 can cast a single 9th level spell... Lets make it an Ice Assassin spell.

Get 5 other Wizards w/ Tattoo Focus to give up a single 2nd level spell (or as many levels to get a spell heightened up to a 9th)

Cast Rary's Arcane Conversion and exchange your heightened Cantrip for a 9th level spell in your spellbook.

And would you allow this in your game?

Let us assume you are the DM, and the wizard pulls this off. Now let us also assume that the party is traditionally composed, i.e. melee, skillmonkey, healer. Your other players suddenly find the game a lot less exciting, while your wizard player chuckles gleefully at his rules loophole and newfound power.

I repeat, IMO this is a loophole, not RAI, because RAI is laid out in general principles in the DMG, page 13 (see the section on Keeping Game Balance, which says it is "Good DM Management" to make sure no one PC outshines the rest).

[Calanon]

And would you allow this in your game?

Let us assume you are the DM, and the wizard pulls this off. Now let us also assume that the party is traditionally composed, i.e. melee, skillmonkey, healer. Your other players suddenly find the game a lot less exciting, while your wizard player chuckles gleefully at his rules loophole and newfound power.

I repeat, IMO this is a loophole, not RAI, because RAI is laid out in general principles in the DMG, page 13 (see the section on Keeping Game Balance, which says it is "Good DM Management" to make sure no one PC outshines the rest).

WHOA! chill friend, I never said that I would do it (I'd certainly allow it as a DM)

If the Wizard went out of his way to gather 4 other spellcasters with Tattoo focus, then you bet your ass I'd allow this :smallamused: Besides, In my games, I ALWAYS make people regret every single exploited action they make "Oh you want to make an army of Ice Assassin using Circle magic? Alright then the other participants gain as much control over the Ice Assassins as you do." :smalltongue:

[Malachei]

WHOA! chill friend, I never said that I would do it (I'd certainly allow it as a DM)

If the Wizard went out of his way to gather 4 other spellcasters with Tattoo focus, then you bet your ass I'd allow this :smallamused: Besides, In my games, I ALWAYS make people regret every single exploited action they make "Oh you want to make an army of Ice Assassin using Circle magic? Alright then the other participants gain as much control over the Ice Assassins as you do." :smalltongue:

I'm chilled. In fact, it is pretty cool where I am, though spring is coming. :) So one DM rules it out in advance, the other makes sure people regret and probably won't do it again. I think the important part is that we both see it as an exploitation. :)

[bloodtide]

I tend to think these types of discussions are pretty awful in that there is never a model to use in place of the Wizard. Without a sample wizard character stated out, these discussions just become speculation as the pro-wizard side merely suggests that a wizard will have every spell, every contingency and every magic item within their grasp at all times.

This is always the problem with the people that think 'wizards are over powered'. No matter what you say to do, they find some crazy thing of ''oh the wizard cast this spell or made this item or did this.'' But, of course, the wizard only did this as they knew of the coming attack. But it's impossible to plan to be attacked every day of your life. And even more so it's impossible for a wizard to live a normal life(as if they were a real character, not a game construct).

But the idea sounds fun. Anyone one want to make a 10th level wizard and let us 'wizards are not so powerful' types come up with a way to catch the wizard. And I'm, at least, not talking about the arena combat where the two foes stand ten feet away and say 'fight'; I'm talking about a wizard that is a living breathing character in a campaign. So the wizard is living a normal wizard life, not casting all defensive spells and waiting to be attacked every second of their life.

[Malachei]

This is always the problem with the people that think 'wizards are over powered'. No matter what you say to do, they find some crazy thing of ''oh the wizard cast this spell or made this item or did this.'' But, of course, the wizard only did this as they knew of the coming attack. But it's impossible to plan to be attacked every day of your life. And even more so it's impossible for a wizard to live a normal life(as if they were a real character, not a game construct).

But the idea sounds fun. Anyone one want to make a 10th level wizard and let us 'wizards are not so powerful' types come up with a way to catch the wizard. And I'm, at least, not talking about the arena combat where the two foes stand ten feet away and say 'fight'; I'm talking about a wizard that is a living breathing character in a campaign. So the wizard is living a normal wizard life, not casting all defensive spells and waiting to be attacked every second of their life.

Well, as long as DMs let 11th level wizards cast 9th level spells to make themselves near-invincible, their reputation is well deserved.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This is always the problem with the people that think 'wizards are over powered'. No matter what you say to do, they find some crazy thing of ''oh the wizard cast this spell or made this item or did this.'' But, of course, the wizard only did this as they knew of the coming attack. But it's impossible to plan to be attacked every day of your life. And even more so it's impossible for a wizard to live a normal life(as if they were a real character, not a game construct).They're called Scrolls. Wizards make them. They can be used to cast spells which they don't have actively memorized. They can be made relatively inexpensively, and can be used to cover any situational spell necessity. So yes, a Wizard CAN have access to virtually every spell available to him at that level.


But the idea sounds fun. Anyone one want to make a 10th level wizard and let us 'wizards are not so powerful' types come up with a way to catch the wizard. And I'm, at least, not talking about the arena combat where the two foes stand ten feet away and say 'fight'; I'm talking about a wizard that is a living breathing character in a campaign. So the wizard is living a normal wizard life, not casting all defensive spells and waiting to be attacked every second of their life.

Wizard5/Incantatrix5 with Persist Spell and Craft Contingent Spell.

Persist Polymorth (Dire Tortoise). Spellcraft check should be trivial. If not, there's always getting an item of +10 to Spellcraft checks, or item familiars. Congratulations, there is literally no chance of surprising me, and I can always teleport/DimDoor away.

Odds of successfully being apprehended? Too low to meaningfully calculate.

[The Glyphstone]

Persist Polymorth (Dire Tortoise). Spellcraft check should be trivial. If not, there's always getting an item of +10 to Spellcraft checks, or item familiars. Congratulations, there is literally no chance of surprising me, and I can always teleport/DimDoor away.

Odds of successfully being apprehended? Too low to meaningfully calculate.

Odds of actually accomplishing anything noteworthy are also too low to meaningfully calculate. You can't study, craft items, go shopping, or do pretty much anything except eat and sit around as a Dire Tortoise, so while this does make the wizard impossible to ambush, it's an exceedingly unrealistic assumption for a 24/7 effect.

[Flickerdart]

Odds of actually accomplishing anything noteworthy are also too low to meaningfully calculate. You can't study, craft items, go shopping, or do pretty much anything except eat and sit around as a Dire Tortoise, so while this does make the wizard impossible to ambush, it's an exceedingly unrealistic assumption for a 24/7 effect.
Where does it say that a Dire Tortoise can't craft, study or go shopping?

[The Glyphstone]

Where does it say that a Dire Tortoise can't craft, study or go shopping?

The fact that it doesn't have hands, and can't talk? Hard to turn the pages of a book with tortoise-feet, and they don't have the vocal cords to make coherent speech.

[Flickerdart]

The fact that it doesn't have hands, and can't talk? Hard to turn the pages of a book with tortoise-feet, and they don't have the vocal cords to make coherent speech.
Telepathy, Scholar's Touch, Hand of the Mage, Telekinesis, Mage Hand, Raven familiar...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Odds of actually accomplishing anything noteworthy are also too low to meaningfully calculate. You can't study, craft items, go shopping, or do pretty much anything except eat and sit around as a Dire Tortoise, so while this does make the wizard impossible to ambush, it's an exceedingly unrealistic assumption for a 24/7 effect.

I can study or craft items in my MMM/Rope Trick. I can also cast spells. Is there anything else I really need to do? If I need to do business, I Astral Projection through PB,L: Nightmare and purchase items with my projection.

[bloodtide]

They're called Scrolls. Wizards make them. They can be used to cast spells which they don't have actively memorized. They can be made relatively inexpensively, and can be used to cover any situational spell necessity. So yes, a Wizard CAN have access to virtually every spell available to him at that level.

Scrolls take time and money, so a wizard can't just 'have a bunch'. And even if a wizard had, say 100 scrolls, how would they carry and keep track of them?





Wizard5/Incantatrix5 with Persist Spell and Craft Contingent Spell.

Persist Polymorth (Dire Tortoise). Spellcraft check should be trivial. If not, there's always getting an item of +10 to Spellcraft checks, or item familiars. Congratulations, there is literally no chance of surprising me, and I can always teleport/DimDoor away.

Odds of successfully being apprehended? Too low to meaningfully calculate.

So why is this so great? So your now a huge dire tortoise with no spellcasting ability(as spells are a class feature) and just 10 contingent spells. Why is the lightning strike so great an ability? If a foe walked up to the dire tortoise and attacked they would be flat footed on the frist round of combat. Is that such a big deal? (and I'm a common sense type DM so I'd say that the lightning strike ability only effects the dire tortoise physical attacks and not things like a contingent spell)

So why is this so great?

[The Glyphstone]

I can study or craft items in my MMM/Rope Trick. I can also cast spells. Is there anything else I really need to do? If I need to do business, I Astral Projection through PB,L: Nightmare and purchase items with my projection.

At that point, why do you need to be a dire tortoise in the first place? You're already invincible 3x over, and immune to being captured anyways.

[Flickerdart]

Scrolls take time and money, so a wizard can't just 'have a bunch'. And even if a wizard had, say 100 scrolls, how would they carry and keep track of them?

Haversack, XP is a river, nothing better to spend gold on.



So why is this so great? So your now a huge dire tortoise with no spellcasting ability(as spells are a class feature) and just 10 contingent spells. Why is the lightning strike so great an ability? If a foe walked up to the dire tortoise and attacked they would be flat footed on the frist round of combat. Is that such a big deal? (and I'm a common sense type DM so I'd say that the lightning strike ability only effects the dire tortoise physical attacks and not things like a contingent spell)

So why is this so great?
You do not lose your class features when Polymorphed.

[bloodtide]

You do not lose your class features when Polymorphed.

Well, to use the Optimization Cheep Cheat Trick #2, where you can grab anything from any Wizards book (As the dire tortoise example does with things from at least three books). I would point out that the Polymorph Subschool from the Players Handbook II says ''the target losses it's class features''. And you will note that spellcasting is listed as a class feature in the Players Handbook.

So, no spellcasting as a dire tortoise.

[Flickerdart]

Well, to use the Optimization Cheep Cheat Trick #2, where you can grab anything from any Wizards book (As the dire tortoise example does with things from at least three books). I would point out that the Polymorph Subschool from the Players Handbook II says ''the target losses it's class features''. And you will note that spellcasting is listed as a class feature in the Players Handbook.

So, no spellcasting as a dire tortoise.
The Polymorph subschool explicitly does not take precedence over existing spell text. Alter Self, on which Polymorph is based, states:


You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form.
It is rather clear-cut. It is strange to complain about new books when you are not even familiar with the old ones.

Incidentally, you also explicitly keep your Spell-like, Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities, meaning that the Polymorph subschool rule only nerfs natural abilities. For instance, the Fighter would lose his bonus feats, and the Rogue his sneak attack. But spellcasting is explicitly exempt.

[Teron]

Why do people still argue with the guy who considers using non-core material to be cheating?

[Flickerdart]

Why do people still argue with the guy who considers using non-core material to be cheating?
Because he does not even know core material.

[bloodtide]

The Polymorph subschool explicitly does not take precedence over existing spell text. Alter Self, on which Polymorph is based, states:
It is rather clear-cut. In the future, I would recommend reading the rules before making a statement like that.

It's not so clear cut. After all they go on for several paragraphs on the fix for the polymorph spells, then toss out one line that says ''oh all this does not apply to any spells that came before.'' So then what is the point of the polymorph subschool? It does not apply to anything then? It's just a waste of space in the book?

Well, of course not. The polymorph subschool should be seen as the base...this is what all polymoprh spells do, and then you modify it by the spell you cast. So, for example, incorporeal creatures are immune to alter self as per the polymorph subschool rules and the spell alter self does not have a line that says ''if your an incorporela creature you may cast this spell on yourself''.

[bloodtide]

Why do people still argue with the guy who considers using non-core material to be cheating?

It's not cheating 'just' to use non-core material. The cheating part comes in two big parts. 1. To mis read and mis rule the rules to your personal benefit. and 2. to search out every book know and find the perfect combo of things.

[Flickerdart]

It's not so clear cut. After all they go on for several paragraphs on the fix for the polymorph spells, then toss out one line that says ''oh all this does not apply to any spells that came before.'' So then what is the point of the polymorph subschool? It does not apply to anything then? It's just a waste of space in the book?
It changes all of the spells in the book. It changes Rogues being able to morph into Hydras and make 12 sneak attacks per round. It just doesn't change spellcasting, because a spell with explicit precedence says it doesn't. This is RAW.



Well, of course not. The polymorph subschool should be seen as the base...this is what all polymoprh spells do, and then you modify it by the spell you cast. So, for example, incorporeal creatures are immune to alter self as per the polymorph subschool rules and the spell alter self does not have a line that says ''if your an incorporela creature you may cast this spell on yourself''.
Except that is not what the rules say. The rules say that the old spells are the base, and that the Polymorph subschool only fills in details that the old spells do not mention.

Your house rules are fine for your table, perhaps. But they are not written in the books.


It's not cheating 'just' to use non-core material. The cheating part comes in two big parts. 1. To mis read and mis rule the rules to your personal benefit.
Which is what you are doing presently.


and 2. to search out every book know and find the perfect combo of things.
This is called Pun-Pun. Everything else is not a perfect combo by definition, because it is not Pun-Pun.

[bloodtide]

Your house rules are fine for your table, perhaps. But they are not written in the books.

Well, even if you allow spellcasting dire tortoises, they still can't cast spells as they can't speak and have no hands. So you'd still be a dire tortoise with just 10 contingent spells.



I'm curious as to your ruling on the Lighting Strike ability of the Dire Tortoise. One side will say the dire tortoise get that free surprise round to take any action they want to as that action. The other side would say the lighting strike must be the dire tortoise attacking physically.

[Flickerdart]

Well, even if you allow spellcasting dire tortoises, they still can't cast spells as they can't speak and have no hands. So you'd still be a dire tortoise with just 10 contingent spells.
Nonverbal spell. Silent/Sudden Silent/Metamagic Rod. Scrolls or wands.




I'm curious as to your ruling on the Lighting Strike ability of the Dire Tortoise. One side will say the dire tortoise get that free surprise round to take any action they want to as that action. The other side would say the lighting strike must be the dire tortoise attacking physically.
The text is clear. On the first round of combat, the tortoise gets a surprise round. The ability places no restrictions on what the tortoise may do during that round. If you are attempting to argue that "lash out" is an attack, I must point out that lashing out with a spell equally fulfills the fluffy little requirement.

[Zonugal]

This is always the problem with the people that think 'wizards are over powered'. No matter what you say to do, they find some crazy thing of ''oh the wizard cast this spell or made this item or did this.'' But, of course, the wizard only did this as they knew of the coming attack. But it's impossible to plan to be attacked every day of your life. And even more so it's impossible for a wizard to live a normal life(as if they were a real character, not a game construct).

But the idea sounds fun. Anyone one want to make a 10th level wizard and let us 'wizards are not so powerful' types come up with a way to catch the wizard. And I'm, at least, not talking about the arena combat where the two foes stand ten feet away and say 'fight'; I'm talking about a wizard that is a living breathing character in a campaign. So the wizard is living a normal wizard life, not casting all defensive spells and waiting to be attacked every second of their life.

I think I rough build I'd propose would be a Male Glacier Dwarf Wizard 5/Crusader 1/Runesmith 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 4. He'd be a domain wizard (cold) with the spontaneous divination acf. His flavor would be he used to be an adventurer than a high-ranking soldier in a dwarven army until finally retiring for a quiet life of academy.

I'd present him with solid feats which I feel, thematically, would work alongside his story.

And I guess the biggest advantage he'd have is not spending every day polymorphed as a dire tortoise and actually being a character.

[bloodtide]

Nonverbal spell. Silent/Sudden Silent/Metamagic Rod. Scrolls or wands.

How would a dire tortoise use a scroll or a wand?




The text is clear. On the first round of combat, the tortoise gets a surprise round. The ability places no restrictions on what the tortoise may do during that round. If you are attempting to argue that "lash out" is an attack, I must point out that lashing out with a spell equally fulfills the fluffy little requirement.

Ok so: Lightning Strike (Ex): A dire tortoise can lash out very
rapidly. On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise
round regardless of whether it has been noticed. A creature
that notices the dire tortoise is still treated as flat-footed
during this round.

Well, I'd say that reading the rules this way...that a dire tortoise can take any action in it's surprise round is wrong. But reading the rules the way that benefits you is the number one trick that cheating optimizers use to break the game and attempt to ruin everyone's fun. But it's just a personal ruling, of course. My personal games will never, ever have a dire tortoise spell caster that can cast awesome spell combos on that surprise round, so it does not matter to me. And should a player even suggest that they wanted to do that, they would come close to getting an instant ban from any of my games. But if they want to play in a game where dire tortoise spellcasters are like knocking the moon out of the sky on their surprise rounds every day, then they are free to do so.


But all that aside. Lets say the capture group all polymorph into Dire Tortoises too. So they surprise the dire tortoise wizard with the real surprise, as they attack suddenly when he does not know they are there. So who goes first?

[Flickerdart]

How would a dire tortoise use a scroll or a wand?

The same way anyone else does.



Well, I'd say that reading the rules this way...that a dire tortoise can take any action in it's surprise round is wrong. But reading the rules the way that benefits you is the number one trick that cheating optimizers use to break the game and attempt to ruin everyone's fun.
There is nothing in this text that so much as mentions physical attacks. Sorry.



But all that aside. Lets say the capture group all polymorph into Dire Tortoises too. So they surprise the dire tortoise wizard with the real surprise, as they attack suddenly when he does not know they are there. So who goes first?
You roll initiative and hold a surprise round where everyone gets to act in the order of initiative, as normal.

[bloodtide]

The same way anyone else does.


So, how does a dire tortoise carry around scrolls? If they have a backpack on there shell, how do they get the scroll out? How do they even open a scroll case? And how does a dire tortoise hold a scroll so that they can read it? And can a tortoise even preform the ''short, simple finishing parts of the spellcasting like the final gestures, words''?

What about wands? You need to hold a wand in your hand, as a dire tortoise has no hands, how can they hold a wand? Would you say a dire tortoise foot can hold and point a wand?

[Flickerdart]

So, how does a dire tortoise carry around scrolls? If they have a backpack on there shell, how do they get the scroll out? How do they even open a scroll case? And how does a dire tortoise hold a scroll so that they can read it? And can a tortoise even preform the ''short, simple finishing parts of the spellcasting like the final gestures, words''?

What about wands? You need to hold a wand in your hand, as a dire tortoise has no hands, how can they hold a wand? Would you say a dire tortoise foot can hold and point a wand?
Gloves of Man.

I think I am beginning to understand your distaste for knowing the rules.

For me, if my character is incapable of doing something I think he ought to be able to do, this represents a Problem. Being the problem solving type, I seek a Solution to this Problem. When there is a Solution, then my character is a good character.

For you, it would appear, if a character is incapable of doing something, then he should never aspire to do it. All exploration ends with the first step. It is certainly a way to play. But it is not the way, and judging by how many supplements exist for 3.5, I would wager it is not the way the developers intended that the game should be played.

[Menteith]

So, how does a dire tortoise carry around scrolls? If they have a backpack on there shell, how do they get the scroll out? How do they even open a scroll case? And how does a dire tortoise hold a scroll so that they can read it? And can a tortoise even preform the ''short, simple finishing parts of the spellcasting like the final gestures, words''?

What about wands? You need to hold a wand in your hand, as a dire tortoise has no hands, how can they hold a wand? Would you say a dire tortoise foot can hold and point a wand?

This is a fair point. Unless using additional spells that would allow for speech, fine manipulation, and carrying around a Haversack, there's a strong argument against using Wands and Scrolls in Dire Tortoise form. Of course, that still leaves the Wizard with their regular spells - and that should be fine for almost every circumstance anyway. Scrolls are more for "what if" situations, while being able to escape an Ambush is something one is going to devote slots to.

[bloodtide]

I think I am beginning to understand your distaste for knowing the rules.

For me, if my character is incapable of doing something I think he ought to be able to do, this represents a Problem. Being the problem solving type, I seek a Solution to this Problem. When there is a Solution, then my character is a good character.

For you, it would appear, if a character is incapable of doing something, then he should never aspire to do it. All exploration ends with the first step. It is certainly a way to play. But it is not the way, and judging by how many supplements exist for 3.5, I would wager it is not the way the developers intended that the game should be played.

I play the game to have fun, as do most of the people I play the game with. If a wizard turns into a cat, we are all fine saying ''a cat can't pick up a scroll and read it'' and just getting on with the game. We use what is called common sense in our game, so even if some nut can find a couple lines in a couple books and put them all together with their own personal interpretation and say ''tortoises can fly'', we will just laugh at him and say ''no''.

I'm fine with characters doing any trick in the game to over come problems, otherwise simply known as playing the game. But I don't like the guy that digs through the rules to find ways around problems without playing the game.

[Flickerdart]

I feel like you should not enforce upon the others your opinion of what "the game" is, considering that even the publishers of the game would disagree with you, simply by the act of their publishing the game.

[bloodtide]

I feel like you should not enforce upon the others your opinion of what "the game" is, considering that even the publishers of the game would disagree with you, simply by the act of their publishing the game.

Where do you get ''enforce'' from. If you say a dire tortoise can carry around, hold and manipulate and read a scroll I would say, sorry, you can't play in my game.

And I disagree with the publishers anyway. But why does that even matter?

[Flickerdart]

Where do you get ''enforce'' from. If you say a dire tortoise can carry around, hold and manipulate and read a scroll I would say, sorry, you can't play in my game.
Despite there existing an item specifically created for monsters to manipulate things without having human-like hands? And yet you wonder why I say you are enforcing your opinion on others.



And I disagree with the publishers anyway. But why does that even matter?
If you do not care about RAW or RAI then all that remains are house rules, and at that point, why do you call it D&D?

[Zonugal]

Persistent polymorphing into a dire tortoise is such an pathetic idea. It displays paranoia in the highest degree. You are presenting a powerful wizard who, out of fear, has decided to leave behind any semblance of his original form to live as a turtle. Never mind that turtle doesn't really have hands or capable speech, so now that paranoid wizard has to throw on necessary attachments/accessories just to facilitate their new, paranoid-bestowed form.

At this point it isn't a matter of power, because you had that in spades before you became a turtle. You now aren't respectable and come across as controlled by your own insecurities.

Your wizard is now pathetic.

Absolutely pathetic.

[Flickerdart]

Absolutely pathetic.
So pathetic that he can kill you before you have the chance to blink. Pride works on dragons, not wizards. Not wizards who are still alive, anyway.

[Eisenfavl]

I'd be perfectly happy to stat up a level 10 wizard who I would actually play in a game, just to prove how deific they are.

[Zonugal]

So pathetic that he can kill you before you have the chance to blink. Pride works on dragons, not wizards. Not wizards who are still alive, anyway.

A hermit is never attacked because a hermit never provokes.

If you wrap your wizard in every insecure-born protection they cease to be of any grand importance.

So it really doesn't matter if your Wizard can re-shape the world if he has left it behind for safety's sake.

But this is over-looking the assumption that every Wizard (no matter the level) is constantly under threat of assassination.

Which is an awful one.

[bloodtide]

Despite there existing an item specifically created for monsters to manipulate things without having human-like hands? And yet you wonder why I say you are enforcing your opinion on others.

The point is not that there is that one or two holy grail item out there that make the whatever work. The point is the whatever does not work. A dire tortoise can not use items, any items. Period. Final. Now can a dire tortoise use a magic item to over come what it can't do, yes.



If you do not care about RAW or RAI then all that remains are house rules, and at that point, why do you call it D&D?

I care about the rules as a nice reference to go by to play a fun game, not some straight jacket to snuff out all the fun. And the publishers where 'unwise' enough to let lots of obvious mistakes into the game, so their judgement can't be trusted for anything.

I never did get the jerk player idea. As if we must let some jerk come over to out house, sit down at our table and do something Dumb Optimizing Cheat like the Gate Infinite Wish Loop, kill all of the other characters ans destroy the whole game world...and all we can do is sit there and do nothing or 'we' are not playing D&D?

[Flickerdart]

If you wrap your wizard in every insecure-born protection they cease to be of any grand importance.
How do you figure that?


A dire tortoise can not use items, any items. Period. Final.


Now can a dire tortoise use a magic item to over come what it can't do, yes.

Um.

[bloodtide]

I'd be perfectly happy to stat up a level 10 wizard who I would actually play in a game, just to prove how deific they are.

And I'd be happy to come up with the plan to capture said wizard, just to prove how weak they are.

Gauntlet Thrown Down.

[Flickerdart]

And I'd be happy to come up with the plan to capture said wizard, just to prove how weak they are.

Gauntlet Thrown Down.
Of course, once you have decided that a wizard "should be able to be captured" it doesn't matter what the rules say, does it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A hermit is never attacked because a hermit never provokes.

If you wrap your wizard in every insecure-born protection they cease to be of any grand importance.

So it really doesn't matter if your Wizard can re-shape the world if he has left it behind for safety's sake.

But this is over-looking the assumption that every Wizard (no matter the level) is constantly under threat of assassination.

Which is an awful one.

Double check the OP please. The whole point of the thread is that the wizard is, in fact, under constant threat of capture.

I fail to see what is wrong with being a turtle. It worked out great for a quartet of swordsages, after all. If I wish to appear humanoid, that's what the Illusion college was designed for.

Meanwhile, I'm still alive and free.

Form follows function, after all. Scoff at the form if you like. At least until you are obliterated by my surprise round. Or I, once again, escape your clutches by vanishing into thin air the moment you approach, leaving behind only a smile. Oh, wait... that was the cat form, nevermind.

[bloodtide]

Of course, once you have decided that a wizard "should be able to be captured" it doesn't matter what the rules say, does it.

I'm not sure what you mean. Were not talking about 'rocks fall' and the wizard is captured. We are talking about how you would capture a real wizard character in gameplay. But not a Crazy Cheating Optimized Character just made to win the argument.

Yes, you can make an unbeatable character a couple ways. But that is by no means a normal character in a normal game world. The court wizard of the kingdom does not walk around as a dire tortoise 24/7 in any type of normal game. Even if your just the local wizard that runs a tavern, you don't sit behind the bar as a dire tortoise all day and night.

[Flickerdart]

But that is by no means a normal character in a normal game world. The court wizard of the kingdom does not walk around as a dire tortoise 24/7 in any type of normal game.
Says you.

Even if your just the local wizard that runs a tavern, you don't sit behind the bar as a dire tortoise all day and night.
What kind of "normal" wizard runs a tavern? :smallconfused:

[Eisenfavl]

And I'd be happy to come up with the plan to capture said wizard, just to prove how weak they are.

Gauntlet Thrown Down.
Challenge: you can't use full casters with access to level 4+ spells or replicate (via scroll or wand or similar means) spells over level 4. This applies to psionics and other full caster equivalency systems as well. Things like warlocks are fine, as are items which require high level spells, TOB is fine assuming you don't use arcane swordsage to get level 4+ spells. (obviously this doesn't apply to me)
Nothing over level 20. (10 for me)
No infinite loops.
Standard, non-crafting enhanced WBL for both of us.
Maximum 100 levels total for you, standard WBL for those levels.

Agreed?

[Flickerdart]

Careful, you should establish what a 'Crazy Cheating Optimized Character' entails. I mean, you might actually cast a spell, instead of running your tavern like a normal wizard.

[bloodtide]

Challenge: you can't use full casters with access to level 4+ spells or replicate (via scroll or wand or similar means) spells over level 4. This applies to psionics and other full caster equivalency systems as well. Things like warlocks are fine, as are items which require high level spells, TOB is fine assuming you don't use arcane swordsage to get level 4+ spells. (obviously this doesn't apply to me)
Nothing over level 20. (10 for me)
No infinite loops.
Standard, non-crafting enhanced WBL for both of us.
Maximum 100 levels total for you, standard WBL for those levels.

Agreed?

The OP was about a 10th level wizard. I was thinking of sticking to that level. So that limits just about everything to 5th level spell wise. As the 'foe' is slightly stronger to make things a challenge I can use a bit more(but I'm not a crazy optimizer type anyway, so don't worry) So things of 10-12 level/CR for me.
No infinite loops.
Standard WBL, but it gets kinda tricky. If the goodlaw guard wants to capture a single wizard it's a whole organization vs one character.

I'd also want to add that we must both agree for something to be final, to avoid the crazy stuff like ''a dire tortoise can use it's surprise round to cast a spell'' that I would never agree to, no matter what anyone wants to say they think they want a rule to say and do.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But not a Crazy Cheating Optimized Character just made to win the argument.I would be offended if I didn't realize that by 'cheating' you meant 'anything that contradicts my argument, even if it does follow the rules'.


Yes, you can make an unbeatable character a couple ways. But that is by no means a normal character in a normal game world. The court wizard of the kingdom does not walk around as a dire tortoise 24/7 in any type of normal game. Even if your just the local wizard that runs a tavern, you don't sit behind the bar as a dire tortoise all day and night.

I'm sorry, but there's no room in your games for an eccentric wizard who spends most of his time in alternate forms? I thought all wizards were supposed to be more than a little batty in the belfry. Their eccentricities and oddities are part of their mystique.

Gandalf insisted on bringing along an overweight aristocrat for a burgler. Fisban... well... do I need to go on? Heck, Merlin (from the Disney's version of Sword and the Stone) made frequent and profligate use of polymorph to instruct the young Arthur. And don't get me started on Raistlin...

I've yet to read about a wizard in literature who isn't seen as a bit peculiar by the mundanes around him.

Being ridiculous is part and parcel of being a wizard. After all, when everyone sees you as loony, they tend to underestimate you. Laugh all you like at the crazy old wizard who enjoys spending his time as a turtle. But when someone tries to attack... it'll be the crafty old wizard who laughs last. At least, unless he hits you with Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter first, then he will concede that point to you. Dominate Person is also quite a good way to have some amusement at the expense of a heckler's pride.

Of course, no paranoid wizard would likely use a spell that has good odds of not being effective (due to immunity/repression of mind-affecting), so you'd probably just get hit with Split Ray Enervation and be next to useless until the following action (you know, once he's done with his standard action, it's Celerity as an immediate action) which will finish you off. Assuming he doesn't use one of his Save or Lose spells in his repitoire (Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Resilient Sphere...)

And if I start getting low on spells left... just DimDoor/Teleport out, and Rope Trick/MMM and relax with a good drink and an ancient text to peruse over.

[Flickerdart]

Standard WBL, but it gets kinda tricky. If the goodlaw guard wants to capture a single wizard it's a whole organization vs one character.
It is very likely that the goodlaw guard also has other criminals they are after, plus administrative costs, upkeep costs, staff, a scouting network, taxes...they will not have the entire organization available for this one task, dropping all other jobs.


I'd also want to add that we must both agree for something to be final, to avoid the crazy stuff like ''a dire tortoise can use it's surprise round to cast a spell'' that I would never agree to, no matter what anyone wants to say they think they want a rule to say and do.
Oh, this is gonna be good.

[Eisenfavl]

The OP was about a 10th level wizard. I was thinking of sticking to that level. So that limits just about everything to 5th level spell wise. As the 'foe' is slightly stronger to make things a challenge I can use a bit more(but I'm not a crazy optimizer type anyway, so don't worry) So things of 10-12 level/CR for me.
No infinite loops.
Standard WBL, but it gets kinda tricky. If the goodlaw guard wants to capture a single wizard it's a whole organization vs one character.

I'd also want to add that we must both agree for something to be final, to avoid the crazy stuff like ''a dire tortoise can use it's surprise round to cast a spell'' that I would never agree to, no matter what anyone wants to say they think they want a rule to say and do.

''a dire tortoise can use it's surprise round to cast a spell''
Well if you get pearls of speech and gloves of man it can, but IIRC pearls of speech are a consumable item, and at level 10 assuming I don't just make NI gold, I am unlikely to spare that expense every single day.

I said that you shouldn't be using 5+ level spells, because otherwise you can just go "I send 4 wizard with your exact build" after you.
Whole organisation is why I said ~100 levels, nothing epic. If you don't use tier 1/2 characters, and don't replicate their abilities through items, I am confident that I can beat anything non epic.
Maybe make it 4 000 level points, characters cost their level squared in level points?
Should we take this to PM's / a new thread?

[Flickerdart]

The Pearl of Speech is not a consumable item. It has a permanent effect (speaking a language) and a daily effect (DC11 command). It costs 600gp.

[Eisenfavl]

The Pearl of Speech is not a consumable item. It has a permanent effect (speaking a language) and a daily effect (DC11 command). It costs 600gp.
Oh so it does. Lovely.
Looks like talking turtles are back.

[Menteith]

...crazy stuff like ''a dire tortoise can use it's surprise round to cast a spell'' that I would never agree to, no matter what anyone wants to say they think they want a rule to say and do.

This is what the rule says. You're the one twisting it, and house-ruling it specifically due to how you feel about it. The rule is clear, unambiguous, and allows for the casting of a spell. I don't know why this seems to offend you; you're really aggressive about it, even though you're wrong, according to the rules.

[Eisenfavl]

This is what the rule says. You're the one twisting it, and house-ruling it specifically due to how you feel about it. The rule is clear, unambiguous, and allows for the casting of a spell. I don't know why this seems to offend you; you're really aggressive about it, even though you're wrong, according to the rules.
Debatably, the form of a turtle can't speak or perform the somatic components with its claws.
If this is wrong I would be happy to hear it though.

[Menteith]

Debatably, the form of a turtle can't speak or perform the somatic components with its claws.
If this is wrong I would be happy to hear it though.

Polymorph:
As Alter Self, except...(nothing that causes you to lose Spell Casting)

Alter Self:
You assume a new form....You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

Gloves of Man and Pearl of Speech cover Somatic and Verbal components; other components shouldn't be affected. What's the issue?

[Eisenfavl]

Oh, I know that the items cover the issue. I was wondering if you were saying that I didn't need the gloves to do it.

[Menteith]

Oh, I know that the items cover the issue. I was wondering if you were saying that I didn't need the gloves to do it.

If you don't want to use 3.0 (Gloves of Man are from Savage Species if I remember correctly), prepare Stilled Spells? Yet another relatively easy way around the issue is to not rely on spells with Somatic components; Dimension Door doesn't have a Somatic Component, for example, and saves you the trouble of buying the gloves.

[Eisenfavl]

If you don't want to use 3.0 (Gloves of Man are from Savage Species if I remember correctly), prepare Stilled Spells? Yet another relatively easy way around the issue is to not rely on spells with Somatic components; Dimension Door doesn't have a Somatic Component, for example, and saves you the trouble of buying the gloves.
This is a horrible slew of both of us mis-reading each others posts.
I was just asking if you were telling me that I didn't need to use a trick to get around polymorphs restrictions to cast, which you aren't.

[bloodtide]

This is what the rule says. You're the one twisting it, and house-ruling it specifically due to how you feel about it. The rule is clear, unambiguous, and allows for the casting of a spell. I don't know why this seems to offend you; you're really aggressive about it, even though you're wrong, according to the rules.

Well, it's clear to some people that the dire tortoises ability of lighting strike is and was just meant to be a 'physical attack'. Now some people will ready a bit too much into a simple line of text and see the lightning strike ability to 'perform any action', and that is a bit of a stretch, and the words are not on the page either. This is just the simple case of some people reading what they want into something just as an author did not write down 25 paragraphs of legalese defining every single possible use and interaction of a simple ability.

It's just a difference of option.

[Flickerdart]

You don't even need hands, just something like them. Your favourite way of growing tentacles will suffice, for instance.

[Eisenfavl]

You don't even need hands, just something like them. Your favourite way of growing tentacles will suffice, for instance.
That's true. I could persist 3 spells to give me 4 working arms and 2 (4?) working tentacles for fine manipulation.

[Menteith]

This is a horrible slew of both of us mis-reading each others posts.
I was just asking if you were telling me that I didn't need to use a trick to get around polymorphs restrictions to cast, which you aren't.

Sorry! Yeah, I was misreading you. Whoops :smallredface:.

@ Bloodtide

I see Lightning Strike telling me that a Dire Tortoise will get a surprise round regardless of whether it's been noticed. A surprise round gives a standard action. There isn't an ambiguity here - nor would I even call it abusive. It's a feature of the Dire Tortoise's form that they can respond with such speed to danger that they gain a few seconds to act before everyone else. Anyone using the form is capitalizing on those greatly enhanced reflexes to act the way they need to. I can understand your position, and it is frustrating that it can negate so many otherwise useful attacks on casters; I've banned it before in my games. But it's still completely legal.

[Eisenfavl]

Well, it's clear to some people that the dire tortoises ability of lighting strike is and was just meant to be a 'physical attack'. Now some people will ready a bit too much into a simple line of text and see the lightning strike ability to 'perform any action', and that is a bit of a stretch, and the words are not on the page either. This is just the simple case of some people reading what they want into something just as an author did not write down 25 paragraphs of legalese defining every single possible use and interaction of a simple ability.
It's just a difference of option.
The problem we are getting here is that you are implying that what the author intended is what is written down. It isn't, and because RAW (rules as written) is as close to absolutely undebatable as we can get, it is what we use.
Plus, as written means you are actually playing the games instead of houseruling & homebrewing.
The contest, if it is going to happen, will have to be by RAW, because it is the closest to a solid, defined set of agreed upon rules as we will ever get.

[bloodtide]

The problem we are getting here is that you are implying that what the author intended is what is written down. It isn't, and because RAW (rules as written) is as close to absolutely undebatable as we can get, it is what we use.
Plus, as written means you are actually playing the games instead of houseruling & homebrewing.
The contest, if it is going to happen, will have to be by RAW, because it is the closest to a solid, defined set of agreed upon rules as we will ever get.

While I understand that we can do something like this if one person will just say ''oh that spell does this as I say so'', I think we must agree to use common sense.

Obviously(to some) the author of every single feat, spell, creature, item and so forth did not absolutely think of everything, including things not even created at the time it was printed. So the rules will always be open to interpretation. And this is where common sense comes in.

So just as page 115 in one book says 'if the day ends in Y you get a free action', does not mean you can crazily optimize that single free action to knock the moon out of orbit. Even if you can do it by 'the rules as written'. But it's all pointless without common sense. Anyone, with common sense, can say, well obviously that should not work that way.

It's as bad as getting the video game cheat of 'invincibility' and then finishing the game to level 100. And while you did finish the game, you did not win the game and your win does not count.

[Eisenfavl]

While I understand that we can do something like this if one person will just say ''oh that spell does this as I say so'', I think we must agree to use common sense.

Obviously(to some) the author of every single feat, spell, creature, item and so forth did not absolutely think of everything, including things not even created at the time it was printed. So the rules will always be open to interpretation. And this is where common sense comes in.

So just as page 115 in one book says 'if the day ends in Y you get a free action', does not mean you can crazily optimize that single free action to knock the moon out of orbit. Even if you can do it by 'the rules as written'. But it's all pointless without common sense. Anyone, with common sense, can say, well obviously that should not work that way.

It's as bad as getting the video game cheat of 'invincibility' and then finishing the game to level 100. And while you did finish the game, you did not win the game and your win does not count.
But common sense is arbitrarily declared. Furthermore, the contest was under the premise that we are talking about the rules. Under common sense, a level 10 fighter who has trained all his life to fight wizards would beat a random level 10 wizard, but in practise (with the rules) the wizard destroys him with 2-3 spells at most.
The premise of this thread is RAW wizards, and the premise of the contest is RAW wizards. My wizard won't be Pun-Pun, but he will be ridiculously powerful, because he is a character built as tier 1, and is by definition going to be optimised.
This IS an optimisation challenge, after all.

[Menteith]

While I understand that we can do something like this if one person will just say ''oh that spell does this as I say so'', I think we must agree to use common sense.

Obviously(to some) the author of every single feat, spell, creature, item and so forth did not absolutely think of everything, including things not even created at the time it was printed. So the rules will always be open to interpretation. And this is where common sense comes in.

I'm completely with you so far. Infinite loops, Candle of Invocation, Dust of Sneezing and Choking, Thought Bottle, Wish use through Summoning/Calling are all easy ways to break a low power game, and I generally ban/restrict these (and other) abuses unless I'm playing in a really high powered game.



So just as page 115 in one book says 'if the day ends in Y you get a free action', does not mean you can crazily optimize that single free action to knock the moon out of orbit. Even if you can do it by 'the rules as written'. But it's all pointless without common sense. Anyone, with common sense, can say, well obviously that should not work that way.

It's as bad as getting the video game cheat of 'invincibility' and then finishing the game to level 100. And while you did finish the game, you did not win the game and your win does not count.

Also true - the issue is that I honestly don't think that the Dire Tortoise's Lightning Strike ability is anywhere near, say, a Hulking Hurler (who can not only knock the moon out of orbit, but can throw the moon as a Standard Action). No one is going to disagree that there are unintended aspects of the game, and that restricting them is good for certain campaigns. What people are taking issue with is how restrictive you're being; There is a league of difference between something like Lightning Strike and something truly broken.

[Aegis013]

Here's a level 10 wizard I played in a game awhile back. He breaks WBL badly, and there are a few custom items, but he existed in an actual game.

Focused Specialist Illusionist 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5 (Gnome Illusionist sublevels 1 and 5, Illusion mastery ACF)
Race: Whisper Gnome
Align: N
Spd: 40ft
Initiative: +9

HP: 108
AC: 28 (Touch 14, FF: 25)
SR: 18

Str 8, Dex 17, Con 25, Int 27, Wis 13, Cha 15
Fort 15+5 in some circumstances, Ref 11, Will 19

BAB: 6

Flaws: Noncombatant, Vulnerable
Feats:
1. Trade Scribe Scroll for Imp Initiative, Spell Focus: Illusion, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense.
3. Earth Spell.
6. Signature Spell: Silent Image
*8 Otyugh hole for Iron Will
9. Residual Metamagic

Skills of note: Concentration 20, Knowledge Arcana 24, Knowledge the Planes 24, Spellcraft 63 (custom items), Craft(Drawing) 19, Bluff 6, Hide 33, Move Silently 26, Spot and Listen usually handed by Owl familiar
Skill Tricks: Collector of Stories and Swift Concentration

Banned Schools: Evocation, Enchantment, Necromancy.
Spells Per Day 0: 3, 1: 3+3, 2: 3+3, 3: 2+3, 4: 2+2, 5: 1+2

I had a lot of time and access to spellbooks and libraries, so I've got a huge number of spells known.

Known 0's: Silent Image, Ventriloquism, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, and others.

Known 1's: Color Spray, Nerveskitter, Enlarge Person, Grease, Wall of Smoke, Protection from Evil, Ray of Clumsiness, Resinous Tar, Karmic Aura, Treacherous Weapon, True Casting, Targeting Ray, Hoard Gullet, Benign Transportation, Guided Shot, Scholar's Touch, Protection from Chaos, Shield, Combat Readiness, Comprehend Languages, Snuff the Light, Disguise Self, Arrowmind, True Strike, Minor Image.

Known 2's: Invisibility, Arcane Turmoil, Jaws of the Moray, Glitterdust, Levitate, Web, Rope Trick, Quick Potion, Detect Thoughts, Major Image, Resist Energy, Insidious Insight, Alter Self, Heroics, Delusions of Grandeur, Spymaster's Coin, Phantom Foe

Known 3's: Phantasmal Strangler, Invisibility Sphere, Haste, Dispel Magic, Sleet Storm, Unluck, Anticipate Teleportation, Mass Snakes' Swiftness, Slow, Shrink Item, Greater Magic Weapon

Known 4's: Greater Mirror Image, Persistent Image, Polymorph, Celerity, Perfect Summons, Spell Enhancer, Assay Spell Resistance, Dispelling Screen

Known 5's: Friend to Foe, Shadow Evocation, Draconic Polymorph, Telekinesis, Greater Enlarge Person

Items:
Head: Headband of Int +6
Face: Artificer's Monocle
Throat: Continual Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis
Shoulder: War Wizard Cloak
Body: Robe of the Archmagi
Torso: Vest of the Archmage
Arms: Bracers of +30 competence bonus to spellcraft(custom item)
Hands: Gloves of the Arcanist
Waist: Belt of Battle
Feet: Boots of Big Stepping
Rings: Ring of Spellcraft +10 untyped(custom item)
Ring(2): Freedom of Movement

Ioun Stones:
+1 caster level, +6 constitution (double cost for slotless), sustenance, +1 AC (dodge bonus), +1 on attacks/skills/saves/ability checks, +2 cha, pale lavender (absorbs 4th level spells or lower, none absorbed yet)

Weapon: +5 Spell storing, Greater Dispelling Light xbow
Shield: +5 Githcraft Darkwood Buckler

Miscellaneous other:
Heward's Handy Haversack, Bag of Holding III, Cloak of Resistance +1, Bracers of Armor +1, chalice which poisons any one who drinks from it, ring of Call Water Elemental (has 3 uses, the Water Elemental was ehanced somehow, but I don't know how), Spellblade Dagger (Arcane Turmoil), Orb of Mental Renewal, Tome of Worldly Memory, Greater Metamagic Wand: Quicken Spell, Lesser Metamagic Wand: Persistent Spell(custom item), Metamagic Wand Grip, Eternal Wands: Detect Magic, Anticipate Teleportation, Create Magic Tattoo, Repair Serious Damage, Sphere of Awakening, 2oz Sovereign Glue, Crystal of Returning Least, Crystal of Lifekeeping Great, Spool of Infinite Rope, Heward's Fortifying Bedroll, Wands of: Tongues 49 charges left, Sending 31 charges left, Knock 49 charges left, See Invisibility 48 charges left.

Typical Contingencies:
Persistent Detect Magic, 24 hour Anticipate Teleportation, Phantom Steed always around. This one is debatable, as Bag of Holding is non-dimensional space, but in the game the DM had allowed me to cast a Silent Image inside the bag; I was able to persistent spell (with the lesser metamagic rod) a level 0 silent image, that had free Heighten and Earth Spell applied from a previous casting thanks to Residual Metamagic. So I would have my silent image persisted inside my bag which I would hold open and it would cast mimicked spells from inside.

How would you catch my wizard? Yes, I know my contingencies could be improved.

If my party is around, there's a level 10 DMM: Persist Cleric, Wildshape Focus druid, Warblade, and Rogue.

[Emperor Tippy]

Meh, I much prefer a persistent Foresight to Dire Tortoise. That let's you shapechange into useful forms without giving up your inability to be flatfooted. It also negates the whole debate over what a Dire Tortoise can and can't cast.

And an Air Weird has the SU ability to duplicate Foresight at will. Just Shapechange into one of those every 2 hours or so for a round and recast Foresight.

[The Glyphstone]

Meh, I much prefer a persistent Foresight to Dire Tortoise. That let's you shapechange into useful forms without giving up your inability to be flatfooted. It also negates the whole debate over what a Dire Tortoise can and can't cast.

And an Air Weird has the SU ability to duplicate Foresight at will. Just Shapechange into one of those every 2 hours or so for a round and recast Foresight.

Shapechange at level 10? Yes, it is possible. No, it is not what one should consider anything but the premium levels of optimization.

[Malachei]

Shapechange at level 10? Yes, it is possible. No, it is not what one should consider anything but the premium levels of optimization.

I think it breaks the game, because it lets characters outgrow their own character advancement: Essentially, you're now borrowing abilities from other creatures to handle challenges far above your own CR. And that is an issue for the game itself: Winning the game, at the cost of the game. And that is why I think the discussions always ending in "Ice Assassin" is a bit of an issue and a one-way-street. We should also tell people: Don't try this at home, you're DM may hate/punish you for it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Shapechange at level 10? Yes, it is possible. No, it is not what one should consider anything but the premium levels of optimization.

I was talking as a general statement. At level 10 whether or not you get to act in the surprise round is irrelevant for capturing a wizard (at least if the wizard isn't abusing UMD or the like to get higher level spells early). The attacker can have a Weirdstone (shuts down teleporation and planar travel in a 6 mile radius), a Craft Contingent Forbiddance set to activate if Celerity is cast (the attacker already get's to act in the surprise round thanks to being the attacker) would also shut down teleportation for a bit. A Craft Contingent Sculp Spell Widened Forcecage will no save contain the wizard and attacker inside about an 80-90 square foot area that's 10 feet high.

All the sudden, before he can act, the wizard can't teleport and is trapped with an enemy inside a solid forcecage that prevents flight or passage. Now the attackers just chase him around and beat on him until he is unconscious.

Or the attacker just Wish's the wizard straight into their pre-prepared dead magic prison plane.

Unless you are using high end optimization/cheese then you can't make yourself self at 10th level. You need access to 9th level spells to really make yourself safe.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

This thread went to a really wierd place. It's not that I've never seen this discussion before, but the fact that it's in reference to a party of level 10s.

I have always wondered, in a world where the PCs can reach this level of defense and paranoia, how do you explain why there is not already an iron-fisted regime of the first Wizard to reach level 17, along with his 500,000 Mindraped Ice Assassins, killing everything that gets above level 5? Honestly, that's the real problem with using these tricks.

If you begin to look at it realistically you have the issue of why the PCs are the first ones to do it, rather than running into a world run by wizards and their industrialized cities, based on legions of Ice Assassins/Simulacrums creating infinite resources with assembly lines casting Fabricate to generate unlimited wealth to create wands of fabricate, to just use those wands every round of every day.

And then, if you choose to look at it as a game, you begin to realize that the inevitable arms race of this mentality will, in fact, lead to a world of Pun Pun (or at least a homogenized powerful build that everyone becomes), as you optimize ever further to create a challenge. So really, everyone has to draw a line somewhere, or else the entire thing breaks down. All that's happeneing here is an argument from opposite sides of the bear-riding, spellcasting bear shooting out more bears turtle caster line.

I mean, aside from games where this is explicitly the norm (epic, playing gods, etc), has anyone had a campaign not break down when a Wizard becomes able to solo gods? It honestly doesn't seem practical for the average campaign.




Anyway, I have decided to go with Drow* Mystic Ranger 5/Fighter 1/Occult Slayer 2. Occult Slayer gives me a nice little surprise for the first set of spells that the players launch at me. Fighter is there to get the extra feat so that I can fit in Boost SR from BoVD, to get up to 21 SR. I will be keeping the Con relatively low, so the players can take a bunch of them down during the engagement, so it doesn't seem like I'm railroading this part as hard as I actually am. :smallbiggrin: (How else do you run an escape adventure in the middle of a campaign, right?)

I would like the leader of the group to do something similar to an Arcane Archer with an infused arrow AMF. Are there any classes or PrCs that get AMF as a low level spell, so that I can keep him under 11 levels? Or, is there any way to replicate this?

I am going to give the entire group 2 scrolls of Dimensional Lock to cast on an item. My first though it to use it on a net, but I was wondering if anyone knows of some item that the characters will not be able to remove for a few minutes?

Also, weirdstone is unhelpful, because you can teleport out of the radius, just not into it.

*They'll be reflavored slightly to fit in with the campaign. Also, they won't be purple.

[Emperor Tippy]

This thread went to a really wierd place. It's not that I've never seen this discussion before, but the fact that it's in reference to a party of level 10s.

I have always wondered, in a world where the PCs can reach this level of defense and paranoia, how do you explain why there is not already an iron-fisted regime of the first Wizard to reach level 17, along with his 500,000 Mindraped Ice Assassins, killing everything that gets above level 5? Honestly, that's the real problem with using these tricks.
Because it's not worth the effort. Leaving aside the fact that level 20 casters are incredibly rare in the first place, it's just really not worth the effort involved. And that assumes that you don't piss off a god that says "You know what? Die now." and just wills you dead using Life and Death. The only way to become immune to that is to pick up Singular Enemy. And even if you have done that, nothing it stopping a god from moving you to a time locked dead magic plane after stripping all of your persistent magical defenses. By the time you have taken a single action to escape, the heat death of the universe has already occurred.


If you begin to look at it realistically you have the issue of why the PCs are the first ones to do it, rather than running into a world run by wizards and their industrialized cities, based on legions of Ice Assassins/Simulacrums creating infinite resources with assembly lines casting Fabricate to generate unlimited wealth to create wands of fabricate, to just use those wands every round of every day.
Why would anyone with the ability to do what you propose, do it? What do they gain?


And then, if you choose to look at it as a game, you begin to realize that the inevitable arms race of this mentality will, in fact, lead to a world of Pun Pun (or at least a homogenized powerful build that everyone becomes), as you optimize ever further to create a challenge. So really, everyone has to draw a line somewhere, or else the entire thing breaks down. All that's happeneing here is an argument from opposite sides of the bear-riding, spellcasting bear shooting out more bears turtle caster line.


I mean, aside from games where this is explicitly the norm (epic, playing gods, etc), has anyone had a campaign not break down when a Wizard becomes able to solo gods? It honestly doesn't seem practical for the average campaign.[/quote]
Soloing gods is a bitch, leaving that aside though; sure. In high level play you don't deal with local issues, and local issues is defined as anything that isn't threatening at least one entire planet. You are dealing with extra-planar concerns and your enemies are all just as capable as you are.


Anyway, I have decided to go with Drow* Mystic Ranger 5/Fighter 1/Occult Slayer 2. Occult Slayer gives me a nice little surprise for the first set of spells that the players launch at me. Fighter is there to get the extra feat so that I can fit in Boost SR from BoVD, to get up to 21 SR. I will be keeping the Con relatively low, so the players can take a bunch of them down during the engagement, so it doesn't seem like I'm railroading this part as hard as I actually am. :smallbiggrin: (How else do you run an escape adventure in the middle of a campaign, right?)
And you are stopping Teleport how? Or Flight? Or Xorn Movement?

As for SR, Assay Spell Resistance is cast as a swift action and gives +10 to the CL check to overcome SR. At 10th level a wizard using it will always overcome SR 21, and it will last the entire encounter.

Assay Spell resistance + Baleful Polymorph means make a DC 22 or so Fort save or loose. Figure a good fort save and 18 Con and you only get +9 on that save, meaning a 60% chance of loosing the fight right then. Then there is Bestow Curse to hit you with a 50% chance of not acting each round, or a 6 point drop in a stat.


I would like the leader of the group to do something similar to an Arcane Archer with an infused arrow AMF. Are there any classes or PrCs that get AMF as a low level spell, so that I can keep him under 11 levels? Or, is there any way to replicate this?
Not really.


I am going to give the entire group 2 scrolls of Dimensional Lock to cast on an item. My first though it to use it on a net, but I was wondering if anyone knows of some item that the characters will not be able to remove for a few minutes?
Dimensional Lock only has a 20 foot radius, getting out of it's range is a single move action. And no, there are no items that the players couldn't get themselves out of in a round or two.


Also, weirdstone is unhelpful, because you can teleport out of the radius, just not into it.
No you can't. Teleport has a Target line of Touch. You can't use teleport if inside the radius of a Weirdstone, regardless of where you are trying to teleport to.

[Malachei]

This thread went to a really wierd place. It's not that I've never seen this discussion before, but the fact that it's in reference to a party of level 10s.

Yes, and it is right in the OP you've posted. But if it doesn't at least once have "Ice Assassin", a thread on what casters can do is not really finished. :)


No you can't. Teleport has a Target line of Touch.

Actually, teleport's target line says "Personal and touch".


And that assumes that you don't piss off a god that says "You know what? Die now."

That is something I agree with, and find plausible. Especially if I humiliate his solar :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually, teleport's target line says "Personal and touch".
Doesn't change my point, at all. The target of the spell is still within the range of the Weirdstone and thus you can't teleport inside that radius.


That is something I agree with, and find plausible. Especially if I humiliate his solar :smallbiggrin:
He has a trillion or so other solars, unless you are making a solar kill puppies or the like the gods simply don't give a ****.

[Malachei]

He has a trillion or so other solars, unless you are making a solar kill puppies or the like the gods simply don't give a ****.

No, he does not have a trillion or so other solars. That's your personal opinion and your houserule assumption.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, he does not have a trillion or so other solars. That's your personal opinion and your houserule assumption.

No, the Heavens have as many Solars and the Hells have Balors and Pit Fiends. The number in all cases is infinite. This are infinite planes. RAW there are an infinite number of Solars around.

And if the Deity wants a Solar back then he can have him back at the cost of a single Standard Action by simply using Alter Reality to fake a Gate spell and call the Solar back to him. It's easier for him to get his Solar back if he needs him at that exact minute than it is for him to kill you.

[Malachei]

No, the Heavens have as many Solars and the Hells have Balors and Pit Fiends. The number in all cases is infinite. This are infinite planes. RAW there are an infinite number of Solars around.

Where exactly do the RAW give the number of Solars? Where exactly do the RAW state that the number of Solars is equal to the number of Balors and Pit Fiends?

There is only one Celestia. The rules say a plane is an infinite expanse, not that it has infinite Solars -- this is not the same. An infinite plane can be lifeless or the the home of just one creature.


And if the Deity wants a Solar back then he can have him back at the cost of a single Standard Action by simply using Alter Reality to fake a Gate spell and call the Solar back to him. It's easier for him to get his Solar back if he needs him at that exact minute than it is for him to kill you.

He is a lawful good deity, of course he cares about the solar. And solars are, by rules text, their closest attendants.

[Talakeal]

And that assumes that you don't piss off a god that says "You know what? Die now." and just wills you dead using Life and Death. The only way to become immune to that is to pick up Singular Enemy.

Or using one of the many spells, magic items, or class / racial abilities that give immunity to death effects. Life and Death replicates the Destruction spell, which is a death effect, iirc.

Now, that isn't to say such a god couldn't strip you of your immunity or find another way to kill you, but it would take slightly more effort on their part.

[Emperor Tippy]

Or using one of the many spells, magic items, or class / racial abilities that give immunity to death effects. Life and Death replicates the Destruction spell, which is a death effect, iirc.

Now, that isn't to say such a god couldn't strip you of your immunity or find another way to kill you, but it would take slightly more effort on their part.

Technically it's not a Death effect, it simply works like Destruction but no where does it say that it picks up it's spell type.

Even if your DM doesn't agree, the deity can still just Wish you to a dead magic plane and then Life and Death you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

{{scrubbed}}

[Corwin_of_Amber]

You're probably right, Shneeky. Anyway, I have gotten about all I need from this thread.

Emperor Tippy, I see that I was misreading exactly how the Weirdstone worked, so that's a good thing. I can just have the army accompanied by a construct with one built right into it. Do I need to preserve line of effect? And, do the players know that they are under its effects immediately?


Oh, and about the Ice assassin assembly line, I figured you just make your first one and mindrape it into your thrall. After that you order it to spend all possible time making additional ones and mindraping them (indoctrinating them to follow you), too, and giving them this order. It represents relatively little effort on your part to establish your own infinitely expanding economy. Get a divine caster and you've got all of the food and water you need for when you decide you need an actual population. As long as there aren't any gods that are the patron of not doing this, you should be fine. :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

You're probably right, Shneeky. Anyway, I have gotten about all I need from this thread.

Emperor Tippy, I see that I was misreading exactly how the Weirdstone worked, so that's a good thing. I can just have the army accompanied by a construct with one built right into it. Do I need to preserve line of effect? And, do the players know that they are under its effects immediately?
Weirdstones need to be activated with a mental command when over a flat surface (I prefer using a Floating Disk or the like so that it follows you around all day), it would require a house rule to build one into a construct.

As for Line of Effect, Weirdstones are weird. They pretty much ignore the natural environment but how exactly LoE is handled with them is something for DM adjudication.

No, the players don't know when they come under it's effects. That's why I would have a flying baddy carry one about a mile or so up in the air along with a flat board to activate it on. The players aren't ever going to find the exact location of the Weirdstone.


Oh, and about the Ice assassin assembly line, I figured you just make your first one and mindrape it into your thrall. After that you order it to spend all possible time making additional ones and mindraping them (indoctrinating them to follow you), too, and giving them this order. It represents relatively little effort on your part to establish your own infinitely expanding economy. Get a divine caster and you've got all of the food and water you need for when you decide you need an actual population. As long as there aren't any gods that are the patron of not doing this, you should be fine. :smallbiggrin:
You don't need Mind Rape. Ice Assassins are already absolutely loyal and obey and command that you give. It's *shudders* superior to Mind Rape.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Weirdstones need to be activated with a mental command when over a flat surface (I prefer using a Floating Disk or the like so that it follows you around all day), it would require a house rule to build one into a construct.

As for Line of Effect, Weirdstones are weird. They pretty much ignore the natural environment but how exactly LoE is handled with them is something for DM adjudication.

No, the players don't know when they come under it's effects. That's why I would have a flying baddy carry one about a mile or so up in the air along with a flat board to activate it on. The players aren't ever going to find the exact location of the Weirdstone.

Okay, that could work. Maybe I'll do an array of watchtowers around the city so that there is an entire spread of them. That would also solve the problem of not letting them teleport out immediately, without having to resort to large amounts of AMF. I could even arange it so that there is a small area in the center of the city that is not covered, for the ruler to use.

I just have to make sure they don't try to steal all of them on their way out.



You don't need Mind Rape. Ice Assassins are already absolutely loyal and obey and command that you give. It's *shudders* superior to Mind Rape.

But doesn't an Ice Assassin of you try to kill you? Or can you override that with the absolute loyalty feature?

[Emperor Tippy]

That is why you order them to never try to harm you are to act in what they perceive to be your best interest. And go and get a permanent telepathic bond with them before ordering the IA to always obey instructions delivered over the bond.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

That is why you order them to never try to harm you are to act in what they perceive to be your best interest. And go and get a permanent telepathic bond with them before ordering the IA to always obey instructions delivered over the bond.

Very clever. I'm going to go on a limb and assume no one though of that when designing the spell.

[The Glyphstone]

Very clever. I'm going to go on a limb and assume no one though of that when designing 95% of 3.5.

Fixed that for you.:smallcool: We love the game, but boy can it be broken so easily.

[Emperor Tippy]

Fixed that for you.:smallcool: We love the game, but boy can it be broken so easily.

I'm at the point where I'm assuming (and I know it's delusional) that it was designed this way on purpose and the designers intended for both sides to be using all the nifty tricks and the like.

Lot's of the broken stuff can be counterbalanced with other broken stuff.

It's either that or the creators were blinding idiots seeing as I can't think of a single 3.5 book that doesn't have at least one incredibly broken thing or several moderately broken things in it.

[Eisenfavl]

No, he does not have a trillion or so other solars. That's your personal opinion and your houserule assumption.
The material plane is infinite.
That means infinite souls going up to the planes.
That means infinite angel's which can be made.
There are as many solars as the gods want.
This is not a houserule.

[Talakeal]

I'm at the point where I'm assuming (and I know it's delusional) that it was designed this way on purpose and the designers intended for both sides to be using all the nifty tricks and the like.

Lot's of the broken stuff can be counterbalanced with other broken stuff.

It's either that or the creators were blinding idiots seeing as I can't think of a single 3.5 book that doesn't have at least one incredibly broken thing or several moderately broken things in it.

I doubt they are all idiots. Its more likely they simply don't have the time to think of everything, let alone playtest it. I don't know about WoTC, but I know that at Games Workshop most books have less than a two month development cycle from the moment they are assigned the project until the manuscript is delivered to the printers. That isn't a lot of time for careful thought or testing the implications of everything.


The material plane is infinite.
That means infinite souls going up to the planes.
That means infinite angel's which can be made.
There are as many solars as the gods want.
This is not a houserule.

It's not a house rule, but it is a pretty big logical assumption. It is all more or less theoretical, as infinites don't exist in reality, but I see no reason why an infinite space cannot contain a finite number of souls, or even an infinite number of souls containing a finite number of potential solars.

Infact, numerous inhabitants of the infinite outer planes are listed as "unique" or given set numbers, which by your logic is impossible.

[Emperor Tippy]

I doubt they are all idiots. Its more likely they simply don't have the time to think of everything, let alone playtest it. I don't know about WoTC, but I know that at Games Workshop most books have less than a two month development cycle from the moment they are assigned the project until the manuscript is delivered to the printers. That isn't a lot of time for careful thought or testing the implications of everything.

You don't need careful or thorough testing, grab someone from the TO boards or the like and have them read through the stuff once before it goes to print. That's all it would take to stop 95% of the broken stuff from ever seeing the light of day.

[The Glyphstone]

You don't need careful or thorough testing, grab someone from the TO boards or the like and have them read through the stuff once before it goes to print. That's all it would take to stop 95% of the broken stuff from ever seeing the light of day.

Well, the TO boards didn't exist before 3.0/3.5 came out- the core books, at least. And after...well, using the community experts as a sounding board sounds like a good idea in theory, but look at Paizo - they asked people to playtest for brokenness, then disregarded or ignored all the feedback with regards to said brokenness. Hard to imagine WotC would have been any better.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

I'm at the point where I'm assuming (and I know it's delusional) that it was designed this way on purpose and the designers intended for both sides to be using all the nifty tricks and the like.

Lot's of the broken stuff can be counterbalanced with other broken stuff.

It's either that or the creators were blinding idiots seeing as I can't think of a single 3.5 book that doesn't have at least one incredibly broken thing or several moderately broken things in it.

I have tried that once and it did not turn out too well (and I don't think I have the ability to DM that). It started out with 1 combat/challenge per session, due to all of the interactions. It eventually got to the point where we were just worldbuilding with god-like power. Not a bad thing, but I prefer a gritter 3.5 game (and this can even be done at high levels, if the players are willing to help).

Recently I have adopted the "technically rule." It basically states that for any given scenario, I ask "Does it really work that way?" If the argument in its favor is some form of, "technically, it does," then chances are it is not allowed (note, this is not always absolute, like in the case of Monk's non-proficiency with his fists [although we've all outgrown the need to play Monks anyway {except for the new girl that my friend brought to the game (but she's just there because he wants to date her[but we're going to encourage Swordsage])}]).

[Jack_Simth]

Where exactly do the RAW give the number of Solars?
It's not a house rule, but it is a pretty big logical assumption. It is all more or less theoretical, as infinites don't exist in reality, but I see no reason why an infinite space cannot contain a finite number of souls, or even an infinite number of souls containing a finite number of potential solars.

Solars are harder to prove (takes more sources), but Planetars (which mostly have the same effect) are a few simple connections in the DMG.

1) DMG page 167: Heavenly Encounters Table: Planetar is on the list. Additionally, Beatific Encounters Table: Planetar is on the list. Any time you're on a plane that uses either of those two encounter tables, there is a positive density of Planetars on that plane that is noticeably above zero (as they can be encountered at random).
2) There are a number of planes, defined as infinite in size, that use one or both of those encounter tables: Heroic Domains of Ysgard (page 158), The Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus (page 163), and The Concordant Domains of the Outlands (page 166). All of these are strictly Core.
3) When you have a positive density of something that comes in discrete units in a volume that is defined as infinite, you must, of necessity, have an infinite number of that something. Thus, there are an infinite number of Planetars.

(A similar method can be used to prove that there are an Infinite number of Noble Dijinni and Efreeti - still staying in Core)

If you branch out of Core, the Planar Handbook adds Solars to the encounter tables of The Seven Heavens of Celestia, the Twin Paradises of Bytopia, the Blessed Fields of Elesium, the Olympian Glades of Arborea, and the Wilderness of the Beastlands. Meanwhile, the Manual of the Planes (Directly referenced in the Planar Handbook!) defines the The Seven Heavens of Celestia as infinite in size, the Twin Paradises of Bytopia as infinite in size, The Blessed Fields of Elesium as infinite in size, and the Olympian Glades of Arborea as infinite in size. The same logic in core-only that says there are an infinite amount of Planetars also says that there are an infinite amount of Solars, once you've reached outside of Core (Oh yes, and the Manual of the Planes puts Solars on the Heavenly Encounters table, as well as the Beatific Encounters table, as well).

[Talakeal]

Are we really using Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy logic to debate RAW?

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, the TO boards didn't exist before 3.0/3.5 came out- the core books, at least. And after...well, using the community experts as a sounding board sounds like a good idea in theory, but look at Paizo - they asked people to playtest for brokenness, then disregarded or ignored all the feedback with regards to said brokenness. Hard to imagine WotC would have been any better.

You don't need play-testing for alot of it. Hirer 5 or so of them as staff and give them a simple job, everything that is written they get to read and they are to note anything broken.

[Talakeal]

You don't need play-testing for alot of it. Hirer 5 or so of them as staff and give them a simple job, everything that is written they get to read and they are to note anything broken.

That makes sense to gamers, but I don't think the corporate guys who run the show agree with the expense.

[Jack_Simth]

Are we really using Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy logic to debate RAW?
If you're referencing my argument, just because something showed up in a particular source doesn't necessarily make it logically invalid (I've never actually read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, so I am definitely not taking the logic from there).

Consider an arbitrary mixed drink. In this specific arbitrary mixed drink, the drink doesn't fully mix (by design), and there's droplets of rum scattered throughout a different liquid (taking up a grand total of, say, 20% of the volume of the drink). If you have an infinite volume of this mixed drink, then by definition, you have an infinite volume of rum as well. This works for any real, positive percentage that is distinguishable from zero.

Please, try to attack the logic itself, rather than where you've seen the argument before.

[Talakeal]

If you're referencing my argument, just because something showed up in a particular source doesn't necessarily make it logically invalid (I've never actually read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, so I am definitely not taking the logic from there).

Consider an arbitrary mixed drink. In this specific arbitrary mixed drink, the drink doesn't fully mix (by design), and there's droplets of rum scattered throughout a different liquid (taking up a grand total of, say, 20% of the volume of the drink). If you have an infinite volume of this mixed drink, then by definition, you have an infinite volume of rum as well. This works for any real, positive percentage that is distinguishable from zero.

Please, try to attack the logic itself, rather than where you've seen the argument before.

I can't attack the logic, because there isn't any. Using abstract mathematics to describe a real world situation leads to absurdity, and the only way it can be handled is with jokes. I believe that was pretty much the premise of Alice in Wonderland.

The quote I am referring to from the Hitchhiker's Guide is (to paraphrase): "The universe has an infinite area and a zero population. Because the universe is not made entirely of people, there are a finite number of people. A finite number divided between an infinite area equals zero. Therefore anyone you happen to meet in the universe is merely a product of your diseased mind."

An infinite area is not a real thing. It can't be a real thing, at least not with any sort of physical laws which we know. Anything there would be smashed to pieces by infinite air pressure from above and pulled apart by infinite gravity from all directions. And that is just the first problem I came up with.

[Menteith]

An infinite area is not a real thing. It can't be a real thing, at least not with any sort of physical laws which we know. Anything there would be smashed to pieces by infinite air pressure from above and pulled apart by infinite gravity from all directions. And that is just the first problem I came up with.

It's a good thing that D&D takes place entirely outside of our reality, and defies the real world's physical laws in many, many ways. Air pressure assumes that matter is composed of molecules constantly in motion - for all you know, matter in D&D follows a classical elemental sense, with the fundamental units of matter being the essences of Earth, Air, Water, and Fire, or something even stranger. Are there specific rules for gravity? The material plane has a phenomenon that appears to work similar to earth normal gravity, but travel to the Demonweb Pits or Limbo and try to apply normal gravitational relationships.

In a nutshell, you shouldn't use real world physics to justify things in D&D, least of all when you're contradicting the crunch.

[Talakeal]

It's a good thing that D&D takes place entirely outside of our reality, and defies the real world's physical laws in many, many ways. Air pressure assumes that matter is composed of molecules constantly in motion - for all you know, matter in D&D follows a classical elemental sense, with the fundamental units of matter being the essences of Earth, Air, Water, and Fire, or something even stranger. Are there specific rules for gravity? The material plane has a phenomenon that appears to work similar to earth normal gravity, but travel to the Demonweb Pits or Limbo and try to apply normal gravitational relationships.

In a nutshell, you shouldn't use real world physics to justify things in D&D, least of all when you're contradicting the crunch.

That was actually my point.

People are using real world higher math to justify RAW vs. RAI, and I was saying that D&D reality is sufficiently different from what real world "logic" would tell us about an infinite area that this method is nonsense.

[Jack_Simth]

I can't attack the logic, because there isn't any. Using abstract mathematics to describe a real world situation leads to absurdity, and the only way it can be handled is with jokes. I believe that was pretty much the premise of Alice in Wonderland.

The quote I am referring to from the Hitchhiker's Guide is (to paraphrase): "The universe has an infinite area and a zero population. Because the universe is not made entirely of people, there are a finite number of people. A finite number divided between an infinite area equals zero. Therefore anyone you happen to meet in the universe is merely a product of your diseased mind."

As you've paraphrased that, it is a fallacy, and is going in the opposite direction of what I went over.

Your paraphrase is starting from a finite number of items in an infinite space - which means a density that is indistinguishable from 0.
I'm starting with pointing out that we've got a definition that says the density is nonzero in this infinite space.

Your paraphrase is saying that the extreme rarity means that what you see is impossible (which is not the case - if there are five of something, then there are five of something, and encountering one of them simply requires going to where it is - completely irrespective of the volume it might be spread over).
I'm pointing out that the nonzero density in an infinite space means that there's an infinite number of the thing I'm looking for.


An infinite area is not a real thing. It can't be a real thing, at least not with any sort of physical laws which we know. Anything there would be smashed to pieces by infinite air pressure from above and pulled apart by infinite gravity from all directions. And that is just the first problem I came up with.
The D&D planar cosmology includes such things as Subjective Directional Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#subjectiveDirectionalGravity) and Erratic Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#erraticTime). D&D, very explicitly, includes things that are not real things and have severe issues if we try them within the confines of physics as we know them in the real world. That doesn't make it any less applicable to the game.


That was actually my point.

People are using real world higher math to justify RAW vs. RAI, and I was saying that D&D reality is sufficiently different from what real world "logic" would tell us about an infinite area that this method is nonsense.
I'm using statistical analysis based on the available information.

Let's turn the question around, though. Where do you get that RAW says there are NOT an infinite number of Solars in existence in the default D&D cosmology? Or where RAI says there are NOT an infinite number of Solars in existence in the default D&D cosmology? Source, please. I've given you mine for why I think RAW says there are.

[Talakeal]

As you've paraphrased that, it is a fallacy, and is going in the opposite direction of what I went over.

Your paraphrase is starting from a finite number of items in an infinite space - which means a density that is indistinguishable from 0.
I'm starting with pointing out that we've got a definition that says the density is nonzero in this infinite space.

Your paraphrase is saying that the extreme rarity means that what you see is impossible (which is not the case - if there are five of something, then there are five of something, and encountering one of them simply requires going to where it is - completely irrespective of the volume it might be spread over).
I'm pointing out that the nonzero density in an infinite space means that there's an infinite number of the thing I'm looking for.

The D&D planar cosmology includes such things as Subjective Directional Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#subjectiveDirectionalGravity) and Erratic Time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#erraticTime). D&D, very explicitly, includes things that are not real things and have severe issues if we try them within the confines of physics as we know them in the real world. That doesn't make it any less applicable to the game.

You are going in the opposite direction, but using the same logic. you are saying if you do meet somebody in an infinite space, there must be an infinite number of them, because otherwise the chance of meeting them would be zero.

This is not rational in the real world, and it isn't rational in a fantasy world. You are trying to apply abstract math to a setting which runs off of belief (in character) and game play and narrative mechanisms (out of character).

Encounter tables are not, nor have they ever been, intended to be an accurate sampling of the population of a given area, let alone an infinite area.

[Menteith]

That was actually my point.

People are using real world higher math to justify RAW vs. RAI, and I was saying that D&D reality is sufficiently different from what real world "logic" would tell us about an infinite area that this method is nonsense.

Fair enough. Are there hard facts beyond what has already been posted regarding angelic populations? If there aren't, then I doubt that a consensus is going to be reached. I agree with you that the evidence hasn't been enough to convince me that there are infinite Solar; nor has enough evidence been presented to contradict that view.

Either way, is it really pertinent to the discussion? Whether or not there are an sufficiently large number of Solar or infinite Solar isn't going to make or break the game, or any of the tactics suggested in this thread.

[Jack_Simth]

You are going in the opposite direction, but using the same logic. you are saying if you do meet somebody in an infinite space, there must be an infinite number of them, because otherwise the chance of meeting them would be zero.

No, I'm not.

I'm saying that we've got a definition that says there's a particular, measurable probability for an arbitrary group travelling to encounter a particular type of creature in that area. This is what random encounter tables are.

I'm then pointing out that encountering such things at random means that there's a measurably positive density of such things.

I'm then multiplying by the defined area to come up with a result.

This is quite straightforward. The only oddity is that we've got infinities involved.

This is not rational in the real world,
Actually, it is. Similar methods are used to estimate the population of a given creature. You go to a typical area, and cordon off a section, which we'll hereafter refer to as a unit area. We then count how many of the creatures in question are in that area, and multiply by how many of our unit areas make up the total area in question to arrive at approximations of the true number of creatures.

This is how surveys work (ask a finite number of people their opinion on something; get the distribution of results from the people asked; multiply that by the number of people whos opinions on the subject matter for purposes of the survey).

This is how the Endangered Species Act works in practice.

This method actually has quite a lot of real-world application. The only oddity is that we've got an infinite area to multiply by.

Encounter tables are not, nor have they ever been, intended to be an accurate sampling of the population of a given area, let alone an infinite area.That may not be strictly what they're intended for, sure. They're for determining what a party, traveling through an arbitrary section of that particular plane, is likely to encounter.

So while that may not be what they're specifically for, it is indeed one of the things that they are.

[Talakeal]

Yes, statistical analysis works in the real world, if done thoroughly enough to even out any statistical errors. What I am saying is that an "infinite area" is an absurdity in the real world, and trying to do a statistical analysis for an infinite area will produce likewise absurd results.

There are two problems with using an encounter table to determine population density. First, it just doesn't work, some creatures show up far too often, some creatures not at all. Using, for example, the forest encounter table in the DMG we find that 5% of all creatures in the forest are 5th level lizard folk with 2 centaur companions, and that wood elves and green dragons do not exist.

Further, you are assuming that an encounter table is uniform across the entire plane, rather than just a sampling from an area PCs are likely to be in.

[Jack_Simth]

Yes, statistical analysis works in the real world, if done thoroughly enough to even out any statistical errors. What I am saying is that an "infinite area" is an absurdity in the real world, and trying to do a statistical analysis for an infinite area will produce likewise absurd results.
How's it absurd? As nearly as I can tell, you basically just keep saying, over and over, that it simply isn't right.

As nearly as I can tell, you've quoted no game text.
As nearly as I can tell, you've shown no math.
What, pray tell, are you basing this on? I'd like a suitable page reference, please, when you claim that there are not an infinite number of solars.


There are two problems with using an encounter table to determine population density. First, it just doesn't work, some creatures show up far too often, some creatures not at all. Using, for example, the forest encounter table in the DMG we find that 5% of all creatures in the forest are 5th level lizard folk with 2 centaur companions, and that wood elves and green dragons do not exist.
No, that just gives you meaningful encounters selected at random. Wood Elves and Green Dragons are either not intended to be encountered at random, or are not considered meaningful encounters.

Further, you are assuming that an encounter table is uniform across the entire plane, rather than just a sampling from an area PCs are likely to be in.Do you have any actual evidence from the texts that they're not intended to be used in arbitrary areas of the plane?

Let's turn the question around, though. Where do you get that RAW says there are NOT an infinite number of Solars in existence in the default D&D cosmology? Or where RAI says there are NOT an infinite number of Solars in existence in the default D&D cosmology? Source, please. I've given you mine for why I think RAW says there are. I may have simply missed it, but I have not seen you do so.

[Talakeal]

How's it absurd? As nearly as I can tell, you basically just keep saying, over and over, that it simply isn't right.

As nearly as I can tell, you've quoted no game text.
As nearly as I can tell, you've shown no math.
What, pray tell, are you basing this on? I'd like a suitable page reference, please, when you claim that there are not an infinite number of solars.

No, that just gives you meaningful encounters selected at random. Wood Elves and Green Dragons are either not intended to be encountered at random, or are not considered meaningful encounters.
Do you have any actual evidence from the texts that they're not intended to be used in arbitrary areas of the plane?

Let's turn the question around, though. Where do you get that RAW says there are NOT an infinite number of Solars in existence in the default D&D cosmology? Or where RAI says there are NOT an infinite number of Solars in existence in the default D&D cosmology? Source, please. I've given you mine for why I think RAW says there are. I may have simply missed it, but I have not seen you do so.

I never made the claim that there were not an infinite number of solars. My claim was that you are trying to combine areas of real world math with abstract game mechanics and claiming that the result is RAW.

Demanding that I prove a negative is an impossibility, and a classic logical fallacy.

There is nothing that says there is an infinite number of solars or isn't an infinite number of solars. You made that claim that, by RAW, there ARE an infinite number of solars, and I am saying that is not neccessarily the case.

The only evidence you have presented by this claim is using real world statistical analysis based on a random encounter table. Real life does not have infinites, and real world statistical formulas do not give meaningful results when infinite values are plugged in.

Further, random encounter tables are, as per the DMG, NOT statistically accurate representations of what lives in an area, but rather a random assortment of creatures which a player might find in a location.

The manual of the planes which you are quoting, also says they are not indicitave of the infinite variety of the planes, rather they are a good sampling of creatures you might encounter while travelling the planes.

If you demand a RAW refutation, which again wasn't my goal, the closest I can come is this: Isn't it stated in several places that the Baatezu are finite and are thus outnumbered by the infinite Tanarii, and Baatezu are listed on the outer planar encounter tables, thus by your logic they must be infinite, which is wrong by RAW.

[Malachei]

We love the game, but boy can it be broken so easily.

Indeed, and while this sometimes makes me sad, because I do love the game, it is, in part, what spurs 90% of the discussions on this forums. :)


As nearly as I can tell, you've quoted no game text.

Indeed, a good point, and this is why I have asked for explicit RAW evidence on the infinite number of solars in my last post (I think two pages before). I've not seen it yet.

Houserules

My use of the term houserule was mostly for illustrational purposes. You can also term it "your decision" or "DM's call". I'm not trying to take sides here (and I like aspects of both schools, actually), when I say: There is a school of thought here, let's call it RAI school, that tries to apply, well, let's call it common sense or practical adjudication to fill gaps the RAW have not explicitly stated or are in conflict. Then there is another school of thought, let's call it the RAW school, stating this represents houseruling, because everything that is not RAW must be, by definition, a houserule. Both schools have their advantages when arguing certain topics, but sometimes, the arguments are a bit pointed or vigorous.

One of the pro sides of the RAW school is that in fact, nobody of us has definite knowledge of RAI, and hence, talking about RAI is speculation. One of the pro sides of the RAI school is that many agree the game does not work as designed, because RAW does not cover important aspects or leads to huge issues, balance and otherwise.

My point is, that if we want to apply the RAW school's principles, then all of us need to agree that RAW is the full rules text. Saying where RAW ends or focusing RAW only on a stat block is pretty deliberate and subject to interpretation, and thereby would remove a benefit the RAW-school has. The argument, that RAW is only crunch and flavor text is not RAW, is, IMO, a personal preference and not valid: Flavor and crunch are integrated in the RAW and often, the designers do not indicate which is which. There are no signs, saying "RAW begins here". They mix flavor and crunch, and they do not state: "This part of the text is RAW, this part is for your flavor enjoyment, you can ignore it".

The RAW-school often vigorously fights any point in a discussion that is not clearly based on RAW and says everything else is a houserule. But if we decide to follow this school of thought, we really need to stay consistent: Then, unless there is clear, unmistakable evidence (!) that something is unambiguously (!) defined in RAW, it is not supported by it. And a discussion drawing conclusions from what RAW might imply is then talking about RAI again.

Infinite Planes

The fact that RAW tells us that a plane is infinite does not automatically imply a class of creatures on it is infinite. I think that is plain logic.

However, I must say the point that if the creature is on an encounter table that applies all over the plane is a good one. However, the plane, even if infinite, has specific locations (which is a bit of an issue in terms of placing that location), which are given in RAW. In places, encounter tables would be different. So a specific encounter table does not necessarily aptly represent the plane's infinity. It is here, where the problem lies:

The rules don't need planar infinity as a mathematical construct, and they don't use it as a mathematical construct. They use planar infinity as a philosophical construct. If we take infinity as a mathematical construct, we run into all sorts of issues. One being that IMO, the RAW clearly imply that there are more lower-level outsiders than higher-level outsiders. If both are infinite, this statement is not correct.

Also, Solars are not just your run-of-the-mills monster. They are the highest servants of a lawful good deity and work closely with them, and they interact with the god. As the deity is still part of the action economy, its closest servants are a finite number (but this includes RAI assumptions, of course).

Therefore, my case is that there is no definite RAW support for the claim that Solars are an infinite number. I asked for specific RAW text that indicates otherwise.

The main problem, however, is that we are not told how to deal with the infinity assumption of planes. For instance I could not Greater Plane Shift to a precise location, because on an infinite area, there is no precise location. My point is that I believe (RAI school speculation, here) the designers went for planar infinity because they would not have to specify planar size and shape. Thereby, they avoided having planes as planets, or having people "fall off the plane". Unfortunately, did not foresee that infinity as a concept brings a couple of conflicts within RAW.


Mmmkay, at this point, I'm invoking DFTT and leaving the thread. When people mistake houserules for RAW and newbs think they know more than those who have contributed to published works, nothing meaningful will result.

You've lost me with this comment. Obviously, the point is not that easy to answer, and the rules evidence not that clear, and has not been given.

I think you mistake your opinion for fact.

And whether members have contributed to anything or are new, is completely irrelevant to this discussion (otherwise, we should exchange CVs before starting discussions). Also, what is a newb? For instance, I've followed the forum many years before registering and I know others have, as well. What in your eyes, makes one member's contribution more valid than another's?

[Jack_Simth]

Indeed, a good point, and this is why I have asked for explicit RAW evidence on the infinite number of solars in my last post (I think two pages before). I've not seen it yet.
I've given you page references. The Manual of the Planes puts Solars on the Heavenly Encounters tables and the Beatific Encounters tables - page 152. It also defines several planes that use those encounter tables as infinite in size (The Seven Heavens of Celestia, the Twin Paradises of Bytopia, The Blessed Fields of Elesium, The Olympian Glades of Arborea - pages 132, 136, 138, and 144, respectively). The Manual of the Planes has an update booklet for 3.5, and is directly referenced in the 3.5 Planar Handbook. It's a perfectly valid place to look.

Infinite Planes

The fact that RAW tells us that a plane is infinite does not automatically imply a class of creatures on it is infinite. I think that is plain logic.

Not directly, no. However, when you've also got a table that specifies that in an arbitrary point in this infinite space you've got a particular chance of encountering a specific class of creature, then the combination does indeed imply that the specific class of creature is infinite in number, as it yields a positive density that is distinguishable from 0.

This is plain logic. A -> B does not say anything about C. However, if you've got A -> B and B -> C, then A -> C, as well.


However, I must say the point that if the creature is on an encounter table that applies all over the plane is a good one. However, the plane, even if infinite, has specific locations (which is a bit of an issue in terms of placing that location)
It's not hard to place something on an infinite plane. Consider the mathematical construct of cartesian coordinates. Infinite in size, but any point can be defined quite easily. All you need is a single reference point.

, which are given in RAW. In places, encounter tables would be different. So a specific encounter table does not necessarily aptly represent the plane's infinity.
They don't have to apply to the entire infinity. Just the mostly unspecified majority of it. Which is what they're for.

It is here, where the problem lies:

The rules don't need planar infinity as a mathematical construct, and they don't use it as a mathematical construct. They use planar infinity as a philosophical construct.
Source, please. Also, what difference does it make, really?

If we take infinity as a mathematical construct, we run into all sorts of issues.
Not really, given that D&D physics don't work like real life physics when it comes to the planes. Gravity and time explicitly don't work like in real life on the planes. I've linked you to the SRD entries for those already, so I won't do it again here.

One being that IMO, the RAW clearly imply that there are more lower-level outsiders than higher-level outsiders. If both are infinite, this statement is not correct.

It can be, actually. Infinities have orders to them. The integer infinity is smaller than the real number infinity, for instance. Check with your college math professor if you'd like a source.


Also, Solars are not just your run-of-the-mills monster. They are the highest servants of a lawful good deity and work closely with them, and they interact with the god. As the deity is still part of the action economy, its closest servants are a finite number (but this includes RAI assumptions, of course).
Why yes, it does include RAI assumptions.

Oh, hey, you just got done going through a big speech that included "talking about RAI is speculation." - and now you're using something based on it in an argument? This has lead me to the conclusion that there's no point in debating anything with you. I'm stopping here. Have a nice day.

[Malachei]

I find it interesting to see your long reply end with "end of discussion". Why not start with that? It is like ending a discussion with a long monologue and then running off, slamming the door before the other has had a chance to reply.

Personally, if I want to end a discussion, I end it silently or with a short farewell, not with a monologue. Of course, then you don't have the last word.

Anyway, I'll get back to the infinity topic if you decide to still take part in this discussion. I think it brings a couple of issues, and also will lead us off-topic. Infinity poses a number of paradoxes. While you are right in that the infinity of integer numbers is bigger than the infinity of real numbers, the example you gave does not apply here (because we are talking of creatures, which can be countably represented with natural numbers, and countable infinities of natural numbers are the same size).

Also, IMO, no, an encounter table is not sufficient to conclude the numbers of solars, because an encounter table is an example. It does not even claim it represents the plane's population.

Finally, even if there is just one creature of a certain class on a certain plane, it could appear on an encounter table. For instance, the Planar Handbook also lists Hecatoncheires (CR 57, from ELH), a creature born of proto-deities. Are you saying there's an infinite number of Hecatoncheires? If yes, as these are proto-deities (and not all proto-deities become deities), by your logic, there is an infinite number of deities, as well.

But, perhaps, let's get this more back on track: Assuming you'd be a playing a lawful good deity in the D&D 3.5 mythology and cosmology, would you accept mortals messing with your solars?

[Boci]

I find it interesting to see your long reply end with "end of discussion". Why not start with that? It is like ending a discussion with a long monologue and then running off, slamming the door before the other has had a chance to reply.

Personally, if I want to end a discussion, I end it silently or with a short farewell, not with a monologue. Of course, then you don't have the last word.

And you can have stopped your post here, but then you wouldn’t have gotten the last word. Kettle calling the pot black much?

[Talakeal]

I didn't mean to offend you or make you mad, or get drawn into an argument as I seem to have been, and I apologize that this has happened.

My simple point was:

Infinites are an abstract mathematical concept. They do not exist in reality. Attempting to apply abstract mathematical concepts to reality gives results that fly in the face of common sense, i.e. they are absurdities. This is the basis of the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy joke I referenced, as well as most of the humor in Lewis Carol's works, and I was pointing that out.

As for D&D, the planes do not run on abstract math OR reality. They run on in character belief, GM imagination, and abstracted rules mechanics. If you want to believe there are infinite Solars, go ahead, there is nothing saying you are wrong. But if I want to say there aren't, there is nothing saying I am wrong either. I personally believe there are probably 2-12 solars per deity, but there is nothing saying that I am right or wrong either, that's just the gut feeling I get from reading the fluff.

As for RAW, it doesn't go either way. I do not count encounter tables as RAW, they are certainly written, but they aren't rules. It is clear to me that they are sample possibilities for what might exist at a given location, in the same way that the sample characters in the PHB are not RAW.


And you can have stopped your post here, but then you wouldn’t have gotten the last word. Kettle calling the pot black much?

In his defense, he said that is what he would do if he were leaving the discussion, and then continued to say he does not wish to leave the discussion and if the other poster would care to continue he has the following points.

[Aharon]

@Jack Simth
I like the effort you put into your calculation.

In the DMG (p. 77), it is specifically stated when rolls on the random encounter tables occur:
When PCs are in the area/doing something.
Obviously, in-game, the distinction can't be made. This strongly infers that the encounter tables were intended as a tool for this specific purpose only, and that you can't derive general frequencies from them.

They are also specifically created with an average EL in mind.

The DMG states on p.95 [...]The sample encounter tables presented in the section on terrain features ... were constructed using the procedure described below[...]

The creation process on p. 98 includes the following:
[...]Once you have every entry for your encounter table ready, you need only assign percentages to the table. You can rigorously adjust the percentages to ensure that the encounter table yields an EL exactly equal to your target EL, but frankly it isn't necessary. Simply assign larger chances to the lines you know generate encounters close to your target EL.[...]


I'm aware that both arguments don't change your math - non-zero probality times infinite space yields infinite creatures - however, the process of probability distribution assignment in conjunction with the limited applicability (PCs only) clearly shows that the encounter tables do not reflect the true in-game distribution of creatures, but only the out-of-game desire to achieve interesting random encounters

[Malachei]

And you can have stopped your post here, but then you wouldn’t have gotten the last word. Kettle calling the pot black much?

No, as I have not left the discussion, and I assumed there are still participants. i'm happy to see your post amd those of others prove my assumption right.

[Boci]

No, as I have not left the discussion,

But Jack_Simth had left the discussion. Responding to their last comments is fine, but not whilst making a point about the importance to them of having the last word since by addressing his points you are doing the exact same thing.

[Tvtyrant]

But Jack_Simth had left the discussion. Responding to their last comments is fine, but not whilst making a point about the importance to them of having the last word since by addressing his points you are doing the exact same thing.

Not really, no. Jack-Simth through out an article of considerable length, and then excused him/her self from the discussion so as to not have to defend it. It is hardly the same, or even similar, to call him/her on doing so.

[Boci]

Not really, no. Jack-Simth through out an article of considerable length, and then excused him/her self from the discussion so as to not have to defend it. It is hardly the same, or even similar, to call him/her on doing so.

There's nothing wrong with attempting to get your opinions across one last time before you bow out of a discussion, especially since you can be pretty sure whoever you were debating with will respond. And that isn't a problem either, but if you are continuing the debate then you have write to pull the "last word" card because you are guilty of the same thing.

[Malachei]

I didn't mean to offend you or make you mad, or get drawn into an argument as I seem to have been, and I apologize that this has happened.

I think it is the usual procedure, the usual result, and hence, nothing to be sorry about. Actually, in this particular case, I think it might produce important results.


Infinites are an abstract mathematical concept. They do not exist in reality. Attempting to apply abstract mathematical concepts to reality gives results that fly in the face of common sense, i.e. they are absurdities. This is the basis of the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy joke I referenced, as well as most of the humor in Lewis Carol's works, and I was pointing that out. As for D&D, the planes do not run on abstract math OR reality. They run on in character belief, GM imagination, and abstracted rules mechanics.

I think it was a valuable contribution you pointed that out. Very clearly, these discussions always end at the point where we find that the game, indeed, requires more than applying RAW 1:1. The act of designing a campaign, defining challenges, running a character is a creative one. It requires adjudication and judgment, and it is inherently linked to the complete RAW, and it needs mechanics just the same as it needs context.

@Boci: You've expressed this three times now, and I think I have understood what you tried to get across. In a way, I disagree, but I respect your point. Do you want to dwell on it or shall we get on with the solars?


I'm aware that both arguments don't change your math - non-zero probality times infinite space yields infinite creatures - however, the process of probability distribution assignment in conjunction with the limited applicability (PCs only) clearly shows that the encounter tables do not reflect the true in-game distribution of creatures, but only the out-of-game desire to achieve interesting random encounters

I think you are spot-on right here. Thank you for finding that.

Another, more personal comment: I want a game that works, and, besides being fun, is credible and consistent. I am not a balance-fanatic, I don't nerf wizards, and there is little banned stuff. But rules text presents problems, has loopholes and things that can be used to break core concepts of the game (such as the power level of characters). I think where the rules text presents issues, you need a gentlemen/ladies' agreement or you need to rule it out. Usually, I prefer the first to the last, but whatever the course you take, I will make sure that a characters does not jump ~half-a-dozen levels in power just because of acquiring a scroll. I like to defend my reasoning to players, and having solars and their deities exact punishment upon a wish-gating wizard (because they DO care) is one of it. Personally, I found the assumption of infinite solars somewhat arbitrary and constructionist in the first place, because the MM entry describes them as close attendants of a deity, but that is not the main point. The main point is that I am happy to have players that share my gaming philosophy and like to play powerful characters, while not having the ambition to break the game. Some of them know how to do it, but they don't. Thus, they don't force an arms race on me (which the DM, eventually, always wins), and that makes me happy.

I'm not sure if that makes me or my players a minority, or whether that is positive or negative in your eyes and from your gaming style's point of view -- but I feel fine.

[Jack_Simth]

{{scrubbed}}

[Malachei]

So you are back in the discussion and out again? I'm not sure, so I'll answer this:


Hmm? Oh, I just tend to process things in order. If you'll note, I was about halfway through your post on the quoting bits. I stopped when I encountered the contradiction - you specified RAI is nothing more than speculation, then turned around and used RAI in an argument. That was about the third or fourth item I considered "dirty pool" as far as a debate goes, and so convinced me that there's no real point in debating you. So I'm not debating with you further. I hope you have a nice day.

The following is my subjective opinion. Please do not feel further embarrassed by it. I am writing it, because I feel this discussion is going in the wrong direction:

My impression is that you are seeing this discussion too much on a personal level, or perhaps with a win-lose mentality. To me, your reaction is somewhat that of an offended person. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm afraid I cannot really understand what has caused your post in the first place: In my first post, I have conceded that RAI is debatable, and then I've used RAI (admitting it!) for a small point in my overall argument. In my post's introduction, I have explained I appreciate both schools and I can't see what's wrong with using both schools in my argument, as long as I admit when I am using RAI in a point I am making.

On a side note: I think we should all treat another's arguing and opinion here with tolerance. We're not here just looking for a reason to get angry, or to make another person angry, are we?

You may call my RAI-based point a weak point, or standing on uneasy ground, you may even call that a flawed argument, but I don't think this gives you the right to call me playing "dirty pool."

[Fitz10019]

How do you capture a wizard?

Once.

as in, "My father hung me on a hook once... once!"

[Jack_Simth]

So you are back in the discussion and out again?
I'm just not debating you on this topic anymore because we're not using the same set of debate rules, which makes it quite pointless.

My impression is that you are seeing this discussion too much on a personal level, or perhaps with a win-lose mentality. To me, your reaction is somewhat that of an offended person. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Yeah, you're wrong. We're not following the same set of debate rules, so there's no point.
I'm afraid I cannot really understand what has caused your post in the first place: In my first post, I have conceded that RAI is debatable, and then I've used RAI (admitting it!) for a small point in my overall argument. Basically a self-contradiction. But also as I mentioned: That was the third or fourth instance. Consider:
How many times have you asked for source / proof in this thread? How many times have you been given a page reference / SRD link in this thread? How many times have you been asked for source / proof in this thread? How many times have you given a page reference / SRD link in this thread? From my perspective, you're demanding a level of evidence from others that you're not up to meeting yourself.

Consider again Talakeal's: "Demanding that I prove a negative is an impossibility, and a classic logical fallacy." - when it ceases to be proving a negative simply by a trick of phrasing - 'prove that there are a finite number of solars, even if not a specific number'.

If it were just one instance, I wouldn't much care. But from what I can tell, it's become a pattern, and it's clear we're playing by different rules. And there's little point in the game if the players don't use the same rules.

[Aharon]

@Jack
Does this also apply to me? (See my argument based on DMG-quotes above)
I honestly don't know because I didn't follow the whole discussion.

[Malachei]

I'm just not debating you on this topic anymore

There is no problem in not debating with me. In fact, you're very welcome to. But you do.


because we're not using the same set of debate rules, which makes it quite pointless.

What debate rules are you referring to that you are following and I am not? (See below my comment regarding evidence)


From my perspective, you're demanding a level of evidence from others that you're not up to meeting yourself.

I brought evidence that "Solars are (...) close attendants to a deity" which IMO implied a god cares for them. Tippy said a god does not care for them, because there are "trillions" (and later specified the infinity hypothesis) -- I asked for evidence that there are trillions. I can't find anything wrong with that.

From that point on, people have contributed. I don't think it is a good contribution to say one poster's contribution is valuable, and another's isn't. Actually, before you started to act what seems offended to me, this discussion was pretty much on topic. Personally, I think you are taking this far too personal and with a win-lose attitude. Are we really here to win arguments or, if we can't, say "there's no point in debating with you"? I may be wrong, but I suspect, this discussion has made you angry, which I find sad.

[Talakeal]

Consider again Talakeal's: "Demanding that I prove a negative is an impossibility, and a classic logical fallacy." - when it ceases to be proving a negative simply by a trick of phrasing - 'prove that there are a finite number of solars, even if not a specific number'.


Now you are just being unreasonable. Let me (once again) try and restate my point:

I am not trying to prove that there are a finite number of solars.

I am pointing out that the method you used to prove that there ARE infinite solars does not work without abstract math that was never intended to apply to reality or to the D&D rules and with assumptions about what the encounter tables represent that are not backed up by RAW or, as far as I can tell, RAI.

You can argue a logical argument without disagreeing with the premise. Take for example Aristotle's "Women are inferior to men because men have more teeth." I don't have to prove that men aren't superior to women to point out that both genders have the exact same number of teeth and therefore the argument is invalid.

[Slipperychicken]

Infinites are an abstract mathematical concept. They do not exist in reality.

Wizards don't exist in reality. Magic doesn't exist in reality. Creation doesn't exist in reality. Dragons don't exist in reality. All these things exist in dnd, because the books say so.


The books say infinity, so that's what it is.

[Talakeal]

Wizards don't exist in reality. Magic doesn't exist in reality. Creation doesn't exist in reality. Dragons don't exist in reality. All these things exist in dnd, because the books say so.


The books say infinity, so that's what it is.

The book says the planes have an infinite size. This is RAW and we can all agree on this.

The point of contention is that the books do not say how infinity works, and as we have no game rules or reality to work from there isn't a solid framework for how said infinite plane operates.

If Jack can say that an infinite plain indicates infinite population every possible entity because of abstract math which doesn't apply to real life or the game books, then I can just as reasonably say that infinite amounts of matter equal infinite amounts of gravity and pressure which instantly slay said infinite population due to real life physics.

[Flickerdart]

then I can just as reasonably say that infinite amounts of matter equal infinite amounts of gravity and pressure which instantly slay said infinite population due to real life physics.
However, the population is quite definitely alive (and is described in books) so therefore this is not the case.

[Talakeal]

However, the population is quite definitely alive (and is described in books) so therefore this is not the case.

This is true. I was not trying to make a reasonable argument, merely demonstrate that applying real world math to the game as if it was RAW will result in situations that are against the setting provided.

Think for a moment what infinite characters of all types would actually mean for a second. Why would any single individual person, place, or thing have any importance at all in the multiverse when there are literally an infinite number of exact copies, and indeed an infinite number of infinetely better versions as well?

How would your character even exist when there are an infinite number of epic level wizards who, for absolutely no reason other than a random, infinitely unlikely whim, decided to wish you dead just now?

[Flickerdart]

Isn't the Prime Material not infinite? It's only the other planes that are. That's why you can keep casting Summon spells and never run out of dudes.

[Talakeal]

Isn't the Prime Material not infinite? It's only the other planes that are. That's why you can keep casting Summon spells and never run out of dudes.

The prime material is infinite. Virtually every plane except the demi planes is infinite according to the manual of the planes.

If the prime wasn't infinite I don't know how the argument for infinite population of the outer planes could even be made as most planar creatures are either former mortals or sustained by mortal belief.