[3.5] How SAD can we get?

[Jack_Simth]

Hey all,

Mostly as an intellectual exercise, but how SAD can we get a single character in 20 levels?

Scoring:
{table=head]Aspect of build | Points
Requires a specific item | -1
Requires a specific feat | -1
Requires a specific race | -1
Excludes an alignment | -1
Limited per day | -2
Region-specific | -1
Settings-specific | -1
Invokes Multiclassing XP penalty | -1 per 10% penalty
AC (all types) | +6
AC (single type) | +3
Saves (all) | +6
Saves (All, but limited type, such as the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance) | +4
Save (single save) | +2
HP/Level | +6
HP (once) | +1
All Attack rolls | +6
All Damage Rolls | +6
All Melee Attack Rolls | +3
All Ranged Attack Rolls | +3
All Melee Damage Rolls | +3
All Ranged Damage Rolls | +3
Melee Attack rolls vs. a limited type of target | +1
Melee Damage rolls vs. a limited type of target | +1
Ranged Attack rolls vs. a limited type of target | +1
Ranged Damage rolls vs. a limited type of target | +1
Mettle | +6
Evasion | +6
Improved Mettle | +6 (stacks with Mettle)
Improved Evasion | +6 (stacks with Evasion)
[/table]
Note that these stack, as appropriate - If the build requires two specific items, a specific race, three feats, and is any nonlawful, there's a -9 penalty from the requirements (-1 per item, -1 for the race, -1 per feat, -1 for not LG, -1 for not LN, -1 for not LE)... however, bonuses do too (provided the bonus stacks) - If you've got Paladin of Tyranny-2 and Blackguard-2 in the build, you've got Charisma to All saves twice, which is +12 right there (but -(a lot) for the PrC feat requirements for Blackguard and the alignment restrictions in the build).

Note that you can only score based on one attribute (we want to be SINGLE attribute dependant, after all).

[mattie_p]

Ooh, a challenge, I like it. Unfortunately I stink at these, but I do want to see some results. If I see nothing in a couple of days I'll post something, but as I am working on a Zinc Saucier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239294) build, we'll have to see...

Subscribing to thread...

[Zaq]

What about per-day abilities? Smite, for instance, is +CHA to attack, but not at-will. How many times do we need it per day in order to get full marks for it? I see the –2 there, but I feel like it should be weighted somehow. 1/day is very different from, say, 6/day.

[Jack_Simth]

What about per-day abilities? Smite, for instance, is +CHA to attack, but not at-will. How many times do we need it per day in order to get full marks for it? I see the –2 there, but I feel like it should be weighted somehow. 1/day is very different from, say, 6/day.
Let's see... at four combats/day expected, figure, oh, two rounds per combat... what's your BAB? With +16 or better, in order for it to be 'effectively constant', you'd need 32 of them... and that's assuming you don't end up with a Speed weapon or some such (which would boost that to an even 40). A two-weapon fighting build (recommended in the case of good bonus damage for melee) you'd need 72.

[KicktheCAN]

Unseelie Fey Loredrake Dragon-wrought Kobold (undergoing the greater Draconic Right)

Favored Enemy Paladin of Freedom 2 / Battle Dancer 1 / Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 2 / Witch Hunter 1 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Abjurant Champion 3-5 / Heartfire Fanner 4 / Sacred Exorcist 2-3

Flaws: Shaky, Murky-Eyed
Feats: Combat Casting, Beauty's Bounty, Dragon-wrought, Track, Draconic Reservoir, Force of Personality, Divine Shield, Snowflake Wardance, Divine Might
Equipment: Slippers of Battledancing, Mithral Buckler, X Nightsticks, Cloak of Charisma

CHA: 39 (18 initial, +2 racial, +3 age, +5 tomes, +6 cloak, +5 level).

CHA to all saves twice, CHA to will (in place of WIS), CHA to AC when unarmored, CHA to shield AC by spending turn attempts, CHA to attack, CHA to melee attack by spending bardic music, CHA to damage, CHA to damage for 1 turn by spending turn attempts, CHA to hit points at 1st level (retroactive increases).

You also get +16 BAB and 9th level casting.

[Jack_Simth]

Unseelie Fey Loredrake Dragon-wrought Kobold (undergoing the greater Draconic Right)

Favored Enemy Paladin of Freedom 2 / Battle Dancer 1 / Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4 / Abjurant Champion 2 / Witch Hunter 1 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Abjurant Champion 3-5 / Heartfire Fanner 4 / Sacred Exorcist 2-3

Flaws: Shaky, Murky-Eyed
Feats: Combat Casting, Beauty's Bounty, Dragon-wrought, Track, Draconic Reservoir, Force of Personality, Divine Shield, Snowflake Wardance, Divine Might
Equipment: Slippers of Battledancing, Mithral Buckler, X Nightsticks, Cloak of Charisma

CHA: 39 (18 initial, +2 racial, +3 age, +5 tomes, +6 cloak, +5 level).

CHA to all saves twice, CHA to will (in place of WIS), CHA to AC when unarmored, CHA to shield AC by spending turn attempts, CHA to attack, CHA to melee attack by spending bardic music, CHA to damage, CHA to damage for 1 turn by spending turn attempts, CHA to hit points at 1st level (retroactive increases).

You also get +16 BAB and 9th level casting.
Let's see.. the build as listed requires: nine feats, one item (slippers) for -10. Cha to shield AC is limited (-2), Cha to melee attack is limited (-2), as is the second Cha to melee attack (-2), specific race: -1, eight excluded alignments (must be CG) - total penalty: -25

However: Cha to all saves twice: +12; Cha to Will only: +2; Cha to AC: +6. Cha to Shield AC: +3. Cha to attack: +6. Cha to Melee Attack: +3. Cha to Damage twice: +12. Cha to hit points at 1st: +1. Total bonus: 45

Final Score: 20 (unless I missed something)

[nedz]

Wizard 20
Scores 0 (or possibly -2)

Just what are we trying to prove here ?

[Taelas]

Eh. This can only really apply to Charisma, which has by far the most things going for it.

Lessee: Cha to AC, thrice (Battle Dancer [Dragon Compendium], Warmage PrC [Dragonlance], Monk [Ascetic Mage]; that's +18 and -12 for specific feats (Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Weapon Focus, and Ascetic Mage), specific alignment (Lawful, eliminates 6 out of 9), and specific setting (Dragonlance). Levels as Sorcerer. Throw in 2 levels of Paladin for AC to saves for another +6 and another -2 (for requiring Good alignment, thereby excluding LE and LN).

That's a LG Battledancer 1/Monk 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 13/Warmage 1.

Throw in a -1 for requiring human (or a race with Sorcerer as favored) to get around multiclassing penalties.

Cha to HP would be nice, but it's too difficult to become a Dry Lich (even assuming you can skip Walker in the Waste, which is in my opinion perfectly possible given the language), and Dry Lich is the only decent way to get it.

So we're at, what, +9? Throw on slippers of battledancing just for giggles, as it's an easy +11 (+6 for Cha to Hit, +6 for Cha to damage, and -1 for specific item). +20.

[KicktheCAN]

Let's see.. the build as listed requires: nine feats, one item (slippers) for -10. Cha to shield AC is limited (-2), Cha to melee attack is limited (-2), as is the second Cha to melee attack (-2), specific race: -1, eight excluded alignments (must be CG) - total penalty: -25

However: Cha to all saves twice: +6; Cha to Will only: +2; Cha to AC: +6. Cha to Shield AC: +3. Cha to attack: +6. Cha to Melee Attack: +3. Cha to Damage twice: +12. Cha to hit points at 1st: +1. Total bonus: 39

Final Score: 14 (unless I missed something)

By your metric, CHA to all saves twice would be +12.

[Eloel]

Factotum 20 with, say, 7 FoI (-7). Enough Inspiration Points to spend as much as you want.

All Attack, All Damage, All Save (+6+6+6 = +18), Str and Dex skills (+6, I assumed "1 skill = +1, 1 set of skills = +3", with your schema), All AC (+6).
= +23

What really is the point here?

[Jack_Simth]

Wizard 20
Scores 0 (or possibly -2)

Just what are we trying to prove here ?
Why would we be trying to prove anything?

[Snowbluff]

Snowflake Wardance Sorc/Sublime Chord with Walker In the Wastes Dry Lich seems to work IMO. Any suggestions on how to perfect this.

[Taelas]

Factotum 20 with, say, 7 FoI (-7). Enough Inspiration Points to spend as much as you want.

All Attack, All Damage, All Save (+6+6+6 = +18), Str and Dex skills (+6, I assumed "1 skill = +1, 1 set of skills = +3", with your schema), All AC (+6).
= +23

What really is the point here?

Skills aren't listed, and with Inspiration Points, you're limited by day, so throw a -2 on all of those. That's -12, even assuming your skills work.


Snowflake Wardance Sorc/Sublime Chord with Walker In the Wastes Dry Lich seems to work IMO. Any suggestions on how to perfect this.

Walker in the Waste requires you to be able to cast 3 spells from the Thirst or Sand domains as divine spells.

You also require 5 canopic jars, which are 5 specific items -- -5. Throw any non-good on top, and you're -9 down (5 items, 3 alignments excluded, and you need Heat Endurance) for a +6 bonus. Not worth it, by a long shot, at least not for the purposes of this exercise.

[Jack_Simth]

By your metric, CHA to all saves twice would be +12.Edited. This is why I said "unless I missed something" in the scoring post.

Eh. This can only really apply to Charisma, which has by far the most things going for it.

Lessee: Cha to AC, thrice (Battle Dancer [Dragon Compendium], Warmage PrC [Dragonlance], Monk [Ascetic Mage]; that's +18 and -12 for specific feats (Combat Casting, Eschew Materials, Weapon Focus, and Ascetic Mage), specific alignment (Lawful, eliminates 6 out of 9), and specific setting (Dragonlance). Levels as Sorcerer. Throw in 2 levels of Paladin for AC to saves for another +6 and another -2 (for requiring Good alignment, thereby excluding LE and LN).

That's a LG Battledancer 1/Monk 1/Paladin 2/Sorcerer 13/Warmage 1.

Throw in a -1 for requiring human (or a race with Sorcerer as favored) to get around multiclassing penalties.

Cha to HP would be nice, but it's too difficult to become a Dry Lich (even assuming you can skip Walker in the Waste, which is in my opinion perfectly possible given the language), and Dry Lich is the only decent way to get it.

So we're at, what, +9? Throw on slippers of battledancing just for giggles, as it's an easy +11 (+6 for Cha to Hit, +6 for Cha to damage, and -1 for specific item). +20.
Nifty!

Factotum 20 with, say, 7 FoI (-7). Enough Inspiration Points to spend as much as you want.

All Attack, All Damage, All Save (+6+6+6 = +18), Str and Dex skills (+6, I assumed "1 skill = +1, 1 set of skills = +3", with your schema), All AC (+6).
= +23Ah, right, per encounter. Nifty!

What really is the point here?What is this 'point' thing of which you speak?

[KicktheCAN]

Edited. This is why I said "unless I missed something" in the scoring post.

I just realized that you were counting -1 per excluded alignment and not just -1 for specific alignment. If you care, you could play as any one of the four paladin variants (LG, CG, LE, CE).

[Eloel]

Skills aren't listed, and with Inspiration Points, you're limited by day, so throw a -2 on all of those. That's -12, even assuming your skills work.

Wrong. With Inspiration Points, you're limited by encounter, not per day. Again, skills were ad-hoc (as noted).
It's very possible to optimize this further.
"Faerie Mysteries Initiate" feat gives -1 for specific feat, +6 for HP/level
"Ring of Evasion" item gives -1 for specific item, +6 for Evasion, for a start. (or get Rogue2, to not get that "-1 for item")

[Lonely Tylenol]

It's going to be a CHA-focused Bardadin/Swiftblade/Sublime Chord, CHA-focused Sorcadin, or some variant of INT-focused Factotum.

If I had to build it (ninja'd on the Sorcadin), it would probably be a Paladin of Freedom 2/Bard 7/Swiftblade 1/Sublime Chord 2/Swiftblade 2-9, which gets CHA to all saves and to initiative, equipped with Slippers of Battledancing, Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows and the Bow of Songs, who takes Snowflake Wardance and Force of Personality as feats, and learns Sirine's Grace, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Whirling Blade, and Thunderlance as spells known.

The result:
-8 alignment restrictions (all but CG)
-3 item restrictions (Slippers of Battledancing, Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows, Bow of Songs)
-4 feat restrictions (Snowflake Wardance, Force of Personality, plus Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites)
+6 Saves (all, from Paladin 2's Divine Grace)
+2 Saves (Will, from Force of Personality)
+1 Melee Attack Rolls vs. Limited Type (Evil, from Paladin 1's Smite Evil)
+3 Melee Attack Rolls (Snowflake Wardance)
+6 Ranged Attack and Damage Rolls (Bow of Songs)
+12 all Attack and Damage Rolls (Slippers of Battledancing)
+3 Melee Damage Rolls (Gauntlets of Heartfelt Blows)
+? Initiative (Swiftblade 2)
+4 Saves (all, but limited, from Ruin Delver's Fortune)
+6 AC (deflection, from Sirine's Grace)
+6 Ranged Attack and Damge Rolls (from Whirling Blade)
+6 Melee Attack and Damage Rolls (from Thunderlance)

= +40 (+ whatever Initiative is) total

This could be improved upon by dips in Battledancer (+6, Dragon Magazine Compendium) and Marshal (+?, Miniatures Handbook) at the expense of 8th-level spells.

If we're not counting spells, I'd go with the INT-based Factotum build, but offer up the idea that spellcasting itself should come with a modifier (as it's a useful class feature that is keyed off an ability score). It could also be improved with a full-casting PrC replacing Swiftblade after the second level (which grants Initiative) that also keys abilities off your casting stat, but I don't know any. The point is that Sublime Chord grants you Bard spells and Sorcerer/Wizard spells (from which there are many CHA-based bonuses).

Ring of Evasion and Tabard of Valor offer Evasion and Mettle, respectively, and are worth +10 (-2 items, +12 Evasion/Mettle), but are non-specific enough that they weren't included (as they don't key anything off any stat, so anyone could use them).

[FMArthur]

The 'Wizard 20' comment sort of brings up an interesting point: are you actually any less SAD if all the useful things you'd actually be doing are on one attribute even if you are doing fewer things? Should you get a higher score for getting Int to things that you aren't using? Wizards have one extremely effective action - spells - that they hardly need any attribute but Intelligence to use.

Anyway I think Factotum with Faerie Mysteries Initiate has Int to pretty much everything except nonphysical skills, doesn't it? Hit points, saves, AC, attack, damage, initiative, strength checks... What else do you even have that you could get the bonus to? I'm not even sure if you need many Fonts of Inspiration as a 20th level Factotum since your pool only has to sustain you for one encounter and grows by level; the feat saves low- to mid-level Factotums mostly.

There's also a Psion using the Control Body power on itself and Solicit Psicrystal in combination. It pretty much has complete duality of physical / psionic actions in every combat so that it can use its Int-dependent powers while using its Int to attack, damage and AC to beat people up in melee. One with a FMI and a Factotum 1 or Factotum 3 dip could have Int to lots of other things and still get 9th level powers.

[Taelas]

Wrong. With Inspiration Points, you're limited by encounter, not per day. Again, skills were ad-hoc (as noted).
It's very possible to optimize this further.
"Faerie Mysteries Initiate" feat gives -1 for specific feat, +6 for HP/level
"Ring of Evasion" item gives -1 for specific item, +6 for Evasion, for a start. (or get Rogue2, to not get that "-1 for item")

My mistake on the IPs. I don't play Factotum enough, it seems.

[Jack_Simth]

The 'Wizard 20' comment sort of brings up an interesting point: are you actually any less SAD if all the useful things you'd actually be doing are on one attribute even if you are doing fewer things? Should you get a higher score for getting Int to things that you aren't using? Wizards have one extremely effective action - spells - that they hardly need any attribute but Intelligence to use.
Well, if you really need a point, consider Gestalt - put your SAD build on one side, your caster based on that attribute on the other.

[Emperor Tippy]

Skills aren't listed, and with Inspiration Points, you're limited by day, so throw a -2 on all of those. That's -12, even assuming your skills work.
Inspiration Points are limited per encounter, not per day.

That said: Int time.
Race: Grey Elf (not required so no points off)
Feats:
1: Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to HP instead of Con to HP) [-1, -1 +6 = +4]
2: Kung Fu Genius (Int for Monk abilities, specifically AC) [-1, +6 = +5]

Class levels:
Factotum 3
-Cunning Insight (Int to Attack, damage, and all saves; limited by Inspiration points) [+6, +6, +6]
-Brains Over Brawn (Int to Initiative, Int to Reflex Saves, Int to all Str and Dex related checks) [+?, +2, +?]

Monk 1
-AC Bonus (Int to AC) [+6]

Exemplar 8
-Intellectual Agility (Int to Initiative, Int to Reflex saves) [+?, +2]


Let's see, that's a final score of 37 with 8 levels free (maybe 36 depending upon multiclass penalty and possibly higher because of the question marks). It could be pushed higher with things like a Ring of Evasion.

[Snowbluff]

You also require 5 canopic jars, which are 5 specific items -- -5. Throw any non-good on top, and you're -9 down (5 items, 3 alignments excluded, and you need Heat Endurance) for a +6 bonus. Not worth it, by a long shot, at least not for the purposes of this exercise.

Uh... wish for a copy of the Writes, and destroy 4 of the 5 jars when you're done. The jars are effectively 1 Lich's Phylactery, counting them separately is nit picking. Do this with the maxed out Cha built above and it should net positive.

[Chronos]

So, wait, if I had a Cha-based build that could get a paladin's Smite Evil for free, that would decrease my score? I'd get +1 for Attack Rolls vs. Limited Type of Target, but -2 for it being used only a limited number of times per day.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Inspiration Points are limited per encounter, not per day.

That said: Int time.
Race: Grey Elf (not required so no points off)
Feats:
1: Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to HP instead of Con to HP) [-1, -1 +6 = +4]
2: Kung Fu Genius (Int for Monk abilities, specifically AC) [-1, +6 = +5]

Class levels:
Factotum 3
-Cunning Insight (Int to Attack, damage, and all saves; limited by Inspiration points) [+6, +6, +6]
-Brains Over Brawn (Int to Initiative, Int to Reflex Saves, Int to all Str and Dex related checks) [+?, +2, +?]

Monk 1
-AC Bonus (Int to AC) [+6]

Exemplar 8
-Intellectual Agility (Int to Initiative, Int to Reflex saves) [+?, +2]


Let's see, that's a final score of 37 with 8 levels free (maybe 36 depending upon multiclass penalty and possibly higher because of the question marks). It could be pushed higher with things like a Ring of Evasion.

To add onto this:

Swashbuckler 3 gives INT to damage.

Duelist 1, Iaijutsu Master 1 and Invisible Blade add INT to AC (but Duelist and Invisible Blade are limited by class level).

Warblade 1 adds INT to Reflex saves (again, limited by class level).

If you further advance Factotum, you could eventually grab Whirling Blade or Thunderlance, which give you INT to hit and damage.

[Taelas]

Uh... wish for a copy of the Writes, and destroy 4 of the 5 jars when you're done. The jars are effectively 1 Lich's Phylactery, counting them separately is nit picking. Do this with the maxed out Cha built above and it should net positive.

Wish for a copy of what? The rite? How is that going to accomplish anything? You need the collaboration of a dry lich regardless.

Oh, you also need Craft Wondrous Item for the jars, so that's an additional -1.

You could destroy them, yes, but seeing as they are essentially additional phylacteries, that's not something any sane dry lich should do. The -5 is appropriate for that reason alone. Why would destroying them remove the requirement of them? You still have to craft 5 jars, whether you destroy them or not. I don't see a problem with it, really, but it doesn't make sense.

In case they only count for 1 or you destroy four of them and that counts, I suppose you could do it for -2 (assuming you can collaborate with a Walker in the Waste of at least 9th level to craft your canopic jars, which I think is possible, though I would have to review the rules to be certain), giving you a +4 bonus. Only problem is, you're also short 5 character levels (as this has to be done within 20 levels), and dry lich has +5 LA.

[Soranar]

You could do a CHA based attack build

snowflake wardance for to hit

take an undead template

Cha becomes your concentration stat

warblade's insightful strike for damage (can be used every turn)
greater insightful strike once you get the level

[nedz]

The 'Wizard 20' comment sort of brings up an interesting point: are you actually any less SAD if all the useful things you'd actually be doing are on one attribute even if you are doing fewer things? Should you get a higher score for getting Int to things that you aren't using? Wizards have one extremely effective action - spells - that they hardly need any attribute but Intelligence to use.

This was exactly my point. Wizard 20 is entirely SAD, and seems to score 0 in this metric.

Although maybe my last point there was wrong ?

Lets see, a wizard using one stat, can cast spells which can achieve all of your points. Lets just take the +6 for stat to AC, I think there are arcane spells for boosting your AC by all manner of types. Do I really have to go through all 1,000 spells ? I'm sure I can get +30 or more by this means, and thats just for AC

Now granted this method is indirect, but still Wizard 20 can win this contest.

[Metahuman1]

Would it count if I just linked you to Personman's Sir Wisdom the SAD Build?


Alternatively a Dragonfire adept focusing on Metabreathed weapons and using minimal reliance on skills and Invocations that don't offer a save really only needs Con.

[Snowbluff]

Wish for a copy of what? The rite? How is that going to accomplish anything? You need the collaboration of a dry lich regardless.

Oh, you also need Craft Wondrous Item for the jars, so that's an additional -1.

You could destroy them, yes, but seeing as they are essentially additional phylacteries, that's not something any sane dry lich should do. The -5 is appropriate for that reason alone. Why would destroying them remove the requirement of them? You still have to craft 5 jars, whether you destroy them or not. I don't see a problem with it, really, but it doesn't make sense.

In case they only count for 1 or you destroy four of them and that counts, I suppose you could do it for -2 (assuming you can collaborate with a Walker in the Waste of at least 9th level to craft your canopic jars, which I think is possible, though I would have to review the rules to be certain), giving you a +4 bonus. Only problem is, you're also short 5 character levels (as this has to be done within 20 levels), and dry lich has +5 LA.

Well, getting the Rites without class levels lets you mess around with other class features. I'd say setting-specific, 1 feat, one 1 item, so nets a plus 3. The 5 LA could be taken at any point. Your progression would be injured, but it doesn't cost class levels, it adds to whatever you have, so do it last.

Being a PF undead also gives Unholy Toughness, IIRC (AFB). It would be considerably easier that this method.

Faking spell type with Alternative Spell source can give goodies in a practical build, like dipping PrC Paladin, for a feat (versus invoking cross class exp penalties).

EDIT: Does a Healer's augmented healing deal extra dmg versus undead? :smallconfused:

Also, some spells use your casting stat for melee attacks and damage, instantly earning points, right?

[Taelas]

The 5 LA could be taken at any point. Your progression would be injured, but it doesn't cost class levels, it adds to whatever you have, so do it last.

A +5 LA would make it ECL 25, not 20, regardless of "when" it is taken. Adding a +5 LA template at level 20 clearly puts the character out of the scope of the topic.

[Snowbluff]

A +5 LA would make it ECL 25, not 20, regardless of "when" it is taken. Adding a +5 LA template at level 20 clearly puts the character out of the scope of the topic.

Nope. Either we get 20 levels of EXP, or we have a 20 level build, in which case we buy it off at 15. EXP is a river or it isn't. The term "20 level build" needs better definition, and even if you supply one there should not be an issue. :smallwink:

[BobVosh]

Its interesting that the stats themselves aren't weighed in some way. Con or Int is obviously more useful than say CHA.

Obviously that would be hard to write in a scale and nit picky, but still. Also I'm interested in the change require since the post a few above pointed out smite can lower a score.

[Taelas]

LA buy-off does not work that way.

A +5 LA can be reduced once, by 1 point. You cannot reduce it further.

I'm disinclined to continue arguing the point, however; if you cannot see what you wish to do is in conflict with the spirit of the challenge (or if you don't care), then we have precious little to discuss.

[Darth Stabber]

The metric for determining points is way borked, the penalties are too great, and spellcasting > everything else on your list.

[Slipperychicken]

Anyway I think Factotum with Faerie Mysteries Initiate has Int to pretty much everything except nonphysical skills, doesn't it? Hit points, saves, AC, attack, damage, initiative, strength checks... What else do you even have that you could get the bonus to? I'm not even sure if you need many Fonts of Inspiration as a 20th level Factotum since your pool only has to sustain you for one encounter and grows by level; the feat saves low- to mid-level Factotums mostly.


Keen Intellect (Dragon #318 or 319) uses Int on will saves, and adds it to some Wis skills, netting +2 and a better Will save.

[Zilzmaer]

Saint Soulknife 2/Paladin 2/Monk 2/Swordsage 2/Shiba Protector 1/Pious Templar 1/Soulbow 10

Off the top of my head:
Wis to AC x3, to hit and to ranged hit, to damage and to damage with specific weapon (mind arrow), and to saves; Evasion and Mettle.
Alignment restrictions (only LG), 8 feats but two are bonus from classes, specific setting (OA), specific race and region (human, Phoenix Clan), maybe others. Human, so Soulbow is favored class; no XP penalty.

Looks to me like over 30 points.

[Rejusu]

I was going to weigh in with a Wisdom Soulbow build but it seems I've been beaten to the punch. On an unrelated note it seems much easier to achieve SAD with the mental stats than it is the physical ones. There's hardly anything you can do with strength besides breaking stuff.

[Morph Bark]

Saint Soulknife 2/Paladin 2/Monk 2/Swordsage 2/Shiba Protector 1/Pious Templar 1/Soulbow 10

Off the top of my head:
Wis to AC x3, to hit and to ranged hit, to damage and to damage with specific weapon (mind arrow), and to saves; Evasion and Mettle.
Alignment restrictions (only LG), 8 feats but two are bonus from classes, specific setting (OA), specific race and region (human, Phoenix Clan), maybe others. Human, so Soulbow is favored class; no XP penalty.

Looks to me like over 30 points.

Swordsage and Monk AC bonuses do not stack. What does Shiba Protector grant?

[Douglas]

The points system could use some tweaking. I think choice of which stat to use should be reflected by giving credit for things the chosen stat gives normally in addition to any special abilities you add. Also, if any requirement that imposes a score penalty comes with a bonus to the chosen ability score, that should offset the penalty or even (if the bonus is high enough) provide extra points.


Inspiration Points are limited per encounter, not per day.

That said: Int time.
Race: Grey Elf (not required so no points off)
Feats:
1: Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to HP instead of Con to HP) [-1, -1 +6 = +4]
2: Kung Fu Genius (Int for Monk abilities, specifically AC) [-1, +6 = +5]

Class levels:
Factotum 3
-Cunning Insight (Int to Attack, damage, and all saves; limited by Inspiration points) [+6, +6, +6]
-Brains Over Brawn (Int to Initiative, Int to Reflex Saves, Int to all Str and Dex related checks) [+?, +2, +?]

Monk 1
-AC Bonus (Int to AC) [+6]

Exemplar 8
-Intellectual Agility (Int to Initiative, Int to Reflex saves) [+?, +2]


Let's see, that's a final score of 37 with 8 levels free (maybe 36 depending upon multiclass penalty and possibly higher because of the question marks). It could be pushed higher with things like a Ring of Evasion.
You're double counting the Monk AC bonus.

[Emperor Tippy]

You're double counting the Monk AC bonus.
It appears you are right.

[Rejusu]

Swordsage and Monk AC bonuses do not stack. What does Shiba Protector grant?

To-hit and damage from it's "No thought" ability. Taking into account the non-stacking of swordsage and monk AC bonii then the build has a score as follows:

Requires a specific feat x8 = -8
Requires a specific race = -1
Excludes an alignment x8 (only LG) = -8
Region Specific (Phoenix clan) = -1
Setting Specific (OA) = -1
Total penalties: -19

AC (All types) x2 (Monk/SS + Saint) = +12
All Attack Rolls (Shiba Protector) = +6
All Damage Rolls (Shiba Protector) = +6
Saves (Paladin w/ Serenity feat) = +6
Mettle (?) = +6
Evasion (?) = +6
Total bonuses: +42

Total: 23

Now it might be slightly more by as much as 6 since it does get wisdom to Ranged attack and Damage rolls with mind arrows. However the scoring list states "All" ranged attack/damage rolls. So limiting it to a specific weapon I'd just use the scoring for "vs limited type of target" for a +1 for a total of 25.

Pretty good but since the monk and SS AC bonuses don't stack you could remove a point of penalty by changing those monk levels for 2 levels of rogue. This still gets you evasion but you're no longer alignment restricted to Lawful meaning you can be Chaotic Good (just swap the Paladin levels for the variant Paladin of Freedom) and still qualify for saint.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I'm curious what intention/spirit this exercise is in. Full casting is generally considered the epitome of SAD, but I don't see casting on the score chart at all. A "perfect" build by the charts standards would be an excellent passive side gestalted with a full caster.

[Zilzmaer]

Now it might be slightly more by as much as 6 since it does get wisdom to Ranged attack and Damage rolls with mind arrows. However the scoring list states "All" ranged attack/damage rolls. So limiting it to a specific weapon I'd just use the scoring for "vs limited type of target" for a +1 for a total of 25.

Soulbow doesn't augment your to hit, only damage. The Wis to ranged hit comes from the feat Zen Archery, so it is with all ranged weapons.

And about the SS/Monk think, I just had a brain fart. You're right, Rogue would be better. Although then you wouldn't get Combat Expertise for free...

[Rejusu]

Soulbow doesn't augment your to hit, only damage. The Wis to ranged hit comes from the feat Zen Archery, so it is with all ranged weapons.

And about the SS/Monk think, I just had a brain fart. You're right, Rogue would be better. Although then you wouldn't get Combat Expertise for free...

Whoops, good point. Not quite sure how I made that mistake considering I've played a Soulbow zen archer before (note: it was boring). So yeah it's a definite +3 there, just not sure how the Wis to damage on mind arrows would be scored. Is Combat Expertise relevant to making it SAD? You didn't post a feat list so I'm not sure.

[Zilzmaer]

Expertise is a prerequisite of Shiba Protector. Isn't Combat Expertise the 3.5 version of Expertise?