Baernoloth monster class(WIP, please peach)

[Grimsage Matt]

I'm making this mostly because I want to play one. I will also admit that my formating isn't so good, and for some of the class features I'm chaning them to be more like the Primordalist then the monster. Mostly for balancing reasons.

HD; d8
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+0|+0|+2| Baernoloth body, Hidden, Old memories (Least).

2nd|+2|+0|+0|+3| Dark Speech, Natural weapons, Telepathy.

3rd|+3|+1|+1|+3| Blessed by the First, Chaos leak.

4th|+4|+1|+1|+4| Baernoloth Reistences, DR.

5th|+5|+1|+1|+4| Regeneration, Might of Primal chaos (Hate the Divine)

6th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+5| Eyes of Chaos

7th|+7/+2|+2|+2|+5| Abomination in the making.

8th|+8/+3|+2|+2|+6| Old memories (lesser)

9th|+9/+4|+3|+3|+6| Chaos flow

10th|+10/+5|+3|+3|+7| Eyes of Chaos

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+3|+7| Might of Primal Chaos (Usher in Chaos)

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+4|+8| Growth

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+4|+8| Eyes of Chaos

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+4|+9| Old memories (Greater)

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+5|+9| Chaos Flood

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+10| Resist Divinity

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10| Ancestors bidding, Might of Primal Chaos (Old Times)

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11| True Dark speech

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11| A Abomination has risen

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12| Baernoloth Apothos[/table]

Features;
Any Refrences to a "Divine being" is any outsider, any creature with a divine rank of 0 or higher, any creature with a outsider blood line and any mortal who draws power from a divine source (SP, SU or EX abillities they gain due to Divine power). Outsiders native to the far realms are not counted as divine beings. Demons, Yulogoths, Aeons and Slaad are also not divine beings.

Baernoloth Body; The Baernoloth loses all other racial bonus and traits and gains outsider traits (basically darkvision 60 foot). It is a medium sized outsider with a 30ft land speed. They also gain a natrual armor bonus equal to their Con modifer.

Hidden (Su): A baernoloth can assume the shape of any Small or Medium humanoid 1/day per HD. In humanoid form, the baernoloth loses his natural attacks. A baernoloth can remain in his humanoid form for 2 hours per HD. A change in form cannot be dispelled execpt with a greater dispel magic or disjunction spell and a baernoloth reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.

Old memories; At first, the memories of what you used to be, just come in flashes, and depart as soon as they come. But you still manage to glean some power from them. You gain +1 to a mental abillity score every other level.
Least; You can use scrying, bestow curse and deeper darkness 3/day per HD.
Lesser; Greater dispel magic, Hold monster and sugesstion 2/Day per HD.
Greater; Modify memory and Plane shift 1/Day per 10 HD. Caster level equals HD

Dark Orgins; You gain a +2 bonus to social skill checks with evil creatures. This increases to +4 with Yulogoths, Obrytiths and Ancient Battorians.

Natural weapons; Gain a bite attack as a primary weapon that deals 1d8+str mod damage and 2 claw attacks that deal 1d6+1/2 str mod damage.

Telepathy; You have Telepathy 10ft/Class level.

Blessed by the First (Su): A baernoloth applies 1/2 his Charisma modifier as a bonus on all saving throws. They also gain the uncanny dodge abillity at level 5, and the improved uncanny dodge abillity at level 13.

Chaos Leak; Pick a dicipline from the following list; Malfeasant Heart (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189444)
, Desolate Arbitrator (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12689742)
or Infernal Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176059)
. You can use manuvers as a Swordsage, but can only prepare manuvers and stances from the Disiple you picked. Iniater level is 1/4 HD.

Barnoloth Resistences; You gain Resitince to Acid and electristy equal to your HD.

Damage Reduction; You gain DR equal to 1/3 HD/Magic, Good, or cold iron. At tenth level, It increases to 1/3/HD magic, good and cold iron.

Primal Might of Chaos(Hate the Divine)(SU); You deal +(1/4 your HD)d6 aginst divine beings. it increases to (1/4 your HD)d10 aginst Lawful Divine beings.

Regeneration; You gain Regeneration equal to 1/3 HD. This is over come by good algined weapons and Cold iron. At 15th level it increases to Good and Magic Cold Iron weapons.

Eyes of Chaos(Su); At level 6, they gain a perment arcane sight effect. At level 10 it's replaced with greater arcane sight. At 13th level they also gain a perment True seeing effect.

Abomination in the making; You gain a bonus to saving throws aginst polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage equal to 1/2 your HD.


Chaos Flow; You gain a second displine from the list, and your iniator level is 1/2 your HD.


Might of Primal Chaos(Usher in Chaos)(Su); You gain a arua that extends 20ft . Divine beings, take a penalty to Caster level equal to 1/2 your HD while inside the arua. At level 16, they also take the penalty to Spell and Su save DC's.

Growth; You grow to large size, your AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills Change accordingly, but they doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.

Chaos Flood; You gain the last disipline from the list and your iniator level increases to your HD.

Resist Divinity; You gain SR and PR equal to 10+HD aginst spells and psionic powers from Divine beings.

Ancestor’s Bidding (Su): You may use Dominate monster 1/day per 5HD. If you use this on a creature created by your worlds heart, no use is expended.

Might of the Primal Choas(Old Times)(Su); Once per day, you can create a massive outporing of primal choas identical the the Divinitys demise Xenothurgic Incursion. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6756629&postcount=17) You are treated as if you have acess to 6th level breaches for the purposes of the effects.

True Dark speech; The Bonus to social skill checks increases to +6/+8. Also, all evil creatures are one step freindler.

A Abomination has risen; Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-affecting effects, and have Nondetection(Immunity to Divination effects).

Baernoloth Apothos; WIP

[Igneel]

I'll have to look more closely at it, but I will at least drop off the code for a table so that you can try to tidy it up some before others mention it. Just put a [/table] at the very end, and put in everything that's missing where it goes.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+0|+0|+2|

2nd|+2|+0|+0|+3|

3rd|+3|+1|+1|+3|

4th|+4|+1|+1|+4|

5th|+5|+1|+1|+4|

6th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+5|

7th|+7/+2|+2|+2|+5|

8th|+8/+3|+2|+2|+6|

9th|+9/+4|+3|+3|+6|

10th|+10/+5|+3|+3|+7|

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+3|+7|

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+4|+8|

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+4|+8|

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+4|+9|

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+5|+9|

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+10|

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10|

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11|

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|

[Grimsage Matt]

Thx:smallbiggrin: I'll take all the help I can get.

[Igneel]

... Here, let me do it for you, just copy the code in my post.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+0|+0|+2| Awaking, Baernoloth body, Hidden, Old memories (Least).

2nd|+2|+0|+0|+3| Dark Speech, Natural weapons, Telepathy.

3rd|+3|+1|+1|+3| Blessed by the First, Chaos leak.

4th|+4|+1|+1|+4| Baernoloth Reistences, DR.

5th|+5|+1|+1|+4| Regeneration, Might of Primal chaos (Hate the Divine)

6th|+6/+1|+2|+2|+5| Eyes of Chaos

7th|+7/+2|+2|+2|+5| Abomination in the making.

8th|+8/+3|+2|+2|+6| Old memories (lesser)

9th|+9/+4|+3|+3|+6| Chaos flow

10th|+10/+5|+3|+3|+7| Primal Sight, World Body

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+3|+7| Might of Primal Chaos (Usher in Chaos)

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+4|+8| Growth

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+4|+8| Life eater

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+4|+9| Old memories (Greater)

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+5|+9| World Heart, Chaos Flood

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+5|+10| Summon Child

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+5|+10| Ancestors bidding, Might of Primal Chaos (Old Times)

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+6|+11| True Dark speech

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+6|+11| A Abomination has risen

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+6|+12| Baernoloth Apothos[/table]

[Grimsage Matt]

sorry, and it's my first time doing something like this, so i'm going through a learning curve.

[THEChanger]

Welp, I can't comment on balance, but this I can say.
Chaos. Not Choas, Chaos.
I also don't know a lot about Baernoloths. What are these strange abominations of dark chaos, and where can I learn more?

[Grimsage Matt]

http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=1525 is what I used. They predate those lawbringing gods who butted in and wrecked the joint. Of course, the monster class is no where near as powerful as the monster. I do want it to be slightly playable (And considering the campain we're in, it's kinda just natural progression)

[Mystic Muse]

I'm also taking something from the Deathlock from Dandwiki, and before you say it's going to be horrible because of it, look it up. It's a PrC that requires to to start over agian at level 1. Admitadly, a stronger then normal level 1, but, balancing. I don't think this works as well as you're hoping. I am completely ignoring any biases towards D&D wiki here, and simply saying that I don't think this mechanic works.

One thing I absolutely Must stress before you read any of my critiques. 20 level monster classes are abominations that take forever to get right. Do not under any circumstances be discouraged. My best one has gone through a ton of editing since its initial inception. If you're new to Monster classes, I suggest doing a few things

1. Rename the thread if you want to create more monster classes. This is because the mods specifically want Monster classes kept to one thread per poster.
2. Go for low CR monsters in the future (General guideline is CR=number of class levels, except for when the CR is above 20 in which case the class level amount should just be 20.) Between 3 and 9 seems to be a bit of a sweet spot. Avoid Constructs and undead due to their immunities making them hard to balance. This is just for starting out. Once you feel you have a better feel for it, feel free to take on whatever.
3. Balance your number of passive abilities with active abilities. A passive ability is say, Regeneration, a constant aura, damage reduction, stuff like that. Active abilities are things like a dragon's breath weapon, a Spiders web attack, SLAs, ETC. Give potential players a lot of fun stuff to do in combat.

Here's some formatting tips.

Make the names of the abilities and such boldfaced because it makes entries easier to read and abilities easier to find.

Always run your monster class through a spellchecker and read it a few times before posting it.

Don't put emoticons in the class features or anything like that. It'll put people off.


Awakening; As your true, Bearnoloth nature awakens inside of you, all your old power is burned away. You lose the all of the levels in the monster class you used to qualify for this one. You lose all skills, feats, HD and class features. You keep any magic items. (DM's note, the last part only applies if the rest of the party is epic level. Otherwise they lose the equipment.) Again, I suggest against this. Regardless of this, it's still a level 1-20 class, so it should be expected to perform like a normal 1-20 class.

One thing I feel the need to mention is you forgot to give it class skills, skill points, and proficiencies entirely.


Baernoloth Body; The Baernoloth loses all other racial bonus and gains outsider traits (basically darkvision 60 foot). It is a medium sized outsider with a 30ft land speed. They also gain a natural armor bonus equal to their Con modifer.
Okay, quite reasonable.


Hidden (Su): A baernoloth can assume the shape of any Small, Medium or Large humanoid. In humanoid form, the baernoloth loses his natural attacks. A baernoloth can remain in his humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a baernoloth reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.

Should be more limited than it is. I suggest limiting it to 1/day per HD, letting it be dispellable, and not allowing large size. If you want, you can add that in later, but don't load something like this in as a first level feature.



Old memories; At first, the memories of what you used to be, just come in flashes, and depart as soon as they come. But you still manage to glean some power from them. You gain +1 to a mental abillity score every other level.
Least; You can use scrying, bestow curse and deeper darkness 3/day per HD.
Lesser; Greater dispelling, Hold monster and sugesstion 2/Day per HD.
Greater; Mind rape and Genisis 1/Day per 10 HD. Caster level equals HD

I suggest changing Mind Rape and Genesis to some other SLAs. Remember to always provide an SRD alternative if possible.



Dark Speech; Gains Dark Speech as a Bonus feat. What's the source for this feat? If it's not in the SRD, always mention the source. Provide an SRD alternative as well, since players might not have the source, making this a dead ability.


Natural weapons; Gain a bite and two claw attacks that deal damage appropriate for your size. I'd just put the damage values for these in right now. It'll save potential players time. Also mention which are primary and which are secondary.




Telepathy; You have Telepathy 10ft/Class level. You cannot use Mindshight with it (Mostly because I hear that it's OP, and I'm already making a PrC that's a little up there)

1. It should be 10ft/HD
2. Don't ban Mindsight in the ability itself. If a DM doesn't like Mindsight, they can say no to it.


Blessed by the First (Su): A baernoloth applies his Charisma modifier as a bonus on all saving throws and as an insight bonus to his armor class. Waaaay too powerful in conjunction with his potential +10 racial bonus to charisma. Way too powerful in general really, at least at this level. This should be a late game ability.



Chaos Leak; Pick a dicipline from the following list; Malfeasant Heart, Desolate Arbitrator or Infernal Monster. You can use manuvers as a Swordsage, but can only prepare manuvers and stances from the Disiple you picked. Iniater level is 1/4 HD.

Always link to other Homebrew sources.


Barnoloth Resistences; You gain Resitince to Acid and electristy equal to your HD.

Alright, reasonable.



Damage Reduction; You gain DR equal to 1/3 HD/Magic, Good, or silver. At tenth level, It increases to 1/3/HD magic, good and silver. Very reasonable.


Primal Might of Choas(Hate the Divine)(SU); You gain +1 to a physical abillity score every other level. You also deal +(1/4 your HD)d6 aginst divine beings. it increases to (1/4 your HD)d10 aginst Lawful Divine beings.

If you want it to deal damage against Angels and Archons it should say "Good Aligned outsiders. It increases to...against Lawful Good outsiders"
Or just outsiders if you'd like it to affect everything. If you meant deities like what it sounds like later on, this is really limited.

I don't think the Baernoloth needs a +7 Strength in addition to +10 to any mental ability score. I'd say maybe +6 to both of those tops.



Regeneration; You gain Regeneration equal to 1/3 HD. This is over come by good algined weapons and Cold iron. At 15th level it increases to Good and Magic Cold Iron weapons.

Alright. Not too unreasonable, though it should be the same material that bypasses its DR.


Eyes of Choas(Su); They have a true seeing effect constantly active.
6th level is waaaaay too early for this. Wizards don't get it until 11th minimum, and people who take vow of poverty don't get it until 18th. Put it somewhere along those lines.


Abomination in the making; You gain a bonus to saving throws aginst polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage equal to 1/2 your HD.

Definitely works.


Primal Sight(Su); You gain Blind sight equal to 5ft/HD, but the HD count starts at 10 for this abillity. The way this reads, you'd have 100 foot Blind sight, not 50 foot which I'm sure was your intention. You don't need to say it has 10 at the start for this ability unless you want it to be more than it usually would be.


World body; you grow to further resemble the ancient Baernoloths, in your own way. Much as they were legends and creatures, they were also worlds. Upon gaining this level, you begin to grow a second body. This body exists somewhere adjacent to the Great Wheel, but not necessarily connected to it yet. Over the course of a few days, this second body completes its gestation and becomes a new plane of existence. You may determine its size, up to a maximum of roughly 2,400 miles in radius (for every new level you gain, you may add up to 100 more miles in radius to the plane).

This new plane is a part of you, and its geography and other features resemble you in an allegorical sense. Are you a vast sea of poison and spite? Or are you a stalwart alabaster tower of light and righteousness? Perhaps a great mountain, unmoving and uncaring, but perfect in its endurance?

After these decisions have been made, they cannot be willingly changed by the character. In fact, vast alterations to the landscape can be detrimental to you. Your plane-self does not have a hit point total but, for instance, if you are a forest of serenity and vitality, and an intruder begins to burn your world to the ground, you suffer for it. As a general rule, every 100 miles of gross mutilation inflicts a virtual negative level (much like defying your legend). This will heal naturally as your story re-asserts itself, about 1 mile per week, although you may speed recovery by physically fixing the changes yourself (such as trans-planting new trees from other planes, which will be absorbed and re-imagined into your likeness). Each negative level remains until the wound that causes it has been repaired.

At any time, you may choose to connect your world-body to another plane. Planar travel to your world-body only functions from a plane that you have connected yourself to. As a standard action, at-will, you may shift from a connected plane to your world-body or from your world-body to your a connected plane. While on your world-body, this is an extraordinary power, but while on another plane, it is considered a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your HD. Once you have connected your world-body to a plane, you may not disconnect them.

Nearly At-will plane shift and a way to give your character negative levels very easily isn't a good class feature. I'd consider tossing this out entirely.


Might of Primal Choas(Usher in Choas)(Su); You gain a arua that extends 10ft per HD. Divine being, and divine spellcasters, are treated as being in a desecrated and unhollowed area. They also have to make a concentration check with a dc of (15+1/2 HD+cha mod) before they cast spells, use spell-like abillitys and their supernatural abillites effects are weakned(Numeric varibles are halved. Basicly, reverse empowered:smallbiggrin:).

DCs should be 10+1/2 HD+Charisma modifier, and this aura is way too powerful. I'd remove both the reverse empowered and screwing over divine spellcasters. Depending on how you define "Divine beings" I'd potentially remove that too.



Growth; You grow to large size, but do not change any abillity scores. Your equipment does not resize with you.

Growth should be phrased more like this. Example from my own Silver Dragon.



Growth (Ex):At level 10 the Silver Dragon grows to large size.
At level 15 she grows to huge size.
At 23rd HD she grows to Gargantuan
At 26th HD she grows to colossal.
her AC, bonus to hit, base damage, grapple and skills Change accordingly, but she doesn't get any ability score bonus or penalties.



Life eater; You gain life sight 5ft/HD, But the HD count starts at 13 for this abillity. So, Mindsight is overpowered but life sight isn't? Also, you're giving it too many detection abilities. A player should look forward to their every level, but if you fill them with redundant abilities, players will grow bored. I suggest taking this out.



World Heart; your titanhood progresses further. A Baernoloth is a legend, and a creature, and a world, and a people. This final truth you must now embody.

Upon gaining this level, you extrude a Titanic Heart. Your Heart is a pure representation of your absolute most core principle, stripped of everything else. The Green Sun is the Heart of Malfeas - once you strip away everything else, his core is a ball of fiery death that hates everything. This being is always an Outsider whose home plane is your world-body. It should be constructed with an ECL of (your character level - 2), or less if you feel it is appropriate for some reason. Whether you base its stats off of character classes, a monster chassis, templates, or what-not, it is always a unique being. As a rule, it cannot have access to a martial discipline that embodies a Baernoloth, nor can it ever own an Epic Destiny.

If your Titanic Heart is ever killed, its essence flees into the depths of your world-body, rejuvenating itself over the course of a year and a day, before being reconstituted back to life. You may speed up this process by paying a full level of experience, which resurrects them immediately.

While alive, however, your Titanic Heart has a special function. While within your world-body, it may create new forms of life. In the course of 24 hours, it may create a creature that resonates with one of your themes, and that has a starting combined (racial hit die + level adjustment) total no greater than 6. These creatures breed true and will begin to act independently, as dictated by their intelligence, and the theme from which they were made (a race of lion-folk built on a theme of Courage will, regardless of what alignment they move towards, always have a strong propensity to be courageous). The default attitude of any individual member of your sired races to you is always Fanatical, although this may change as normal. There is no limit to the number of different races your Heart may create.

If you wish to have your Heart create something grander in scale, it may devote 1 month per ECL, up to ECL (your character level - 5), to create a singular unique being from one of your themes. Once again, the only limitation on the number of these creations that may be forged is the time one's Heart is willing to invest. This ability doesn't seem like it'd come up that often.


Choas Flood; You gain the last disipline from the list and your iniator level increases to your HD. Okay, maybe not too unreasonable. I'd really have to check the disciplines themselves to be sure.

Another thing to keep in mind for future monster classes. The less stuff a DM has to loop up in order to approve a class, the better.



Summon Child (Sp): A baernoloth can summon any creature created by it's world heart a number of times per day equal to 1/10 HD+Cha mod. The crature stays for 1 hour. This ability likely isn't going to be useful ever. I'm not even sure how often you're supposed to be able to do it as written.



Ancestor’s Bidding (Su): The Baernoloth has the power to demand obeisance of all his “children”. In a shockwave of sickly grey energy, a Baern can, as a standard action, attempt to dominate all evil creatures within 300 ft. All evil, non-divine (divine rank 0 or higher) creatures must succeed on a will save DC 46 or suffer the effects of a dominate monster spell, with the following exceptions:

-Yugoloths take a –6 penalty on their saves, since their ties to the Baern are the strongest.

-Demons and Devils take a –2 penalty on their saves, for the Baern taps old, long forgotten connections to these protoplasmic spirits to worm its way into their minds.

-Certain “noble” demons, devils and similar evil outsiders (as a rule of thumb, all such creatures chosable for “pact feats” like Thrall to Demon) are immune to this ability nevertheless.

-Clerics of Evil Gods or mortals with feats like “Thrall to Demon” or similar feats gain a +4 bonus on their saves, since the connection to their vile patrons gives them an edge in resisting the assault on their minds. This does not extend to mortals who crafted a pact with a yugoloth entity.

-Creatures created by World heart gain no save. If it was another Baernoloth who directly created a given creature, it takes a –4 penalty on its save.

-Protection from Evil does not suppress control.

This ability has a caster level of 30, but it cannot be dispelled but by a CL 31 disjunction or a CL 31 Miracle, and these possibilities allow only one creature to be freed for each application form the Baernoloth’s corrupt yolk.

The duration of this ability is otherwise permanent, and the maximum number in HD of creatures controlled is twice the Baern’s HD. This is a burst effect, so creatures standing near the Baern are affected first, although obstacles don’t block it.(This one, I'm just pasting it over, I'm probaly going to turn it into a mass sugesstion/Charm combo). This is waaaaay too powerful. The DC 46 is extremely arbitrary, and it can give you a nearly endless supply of minions. It being able to only be bypassed by a character with a caster level 15 levels above you doesn't particularly make sense either.



Might of the Primal Choas(Old Times)(Su); Once per week, you can create a massive outporing of primal choas (To be honest, I'm going to steal this one form RealmsofChoas) identical the the Divinitys demise Xenothurgic Incursion. You are treated as if you know 6th level murmurs for the purposes of the effects. (The other ones went for "I hate the divinitys", so why do this one:smallbiggrin:) You also regain one outsider class feature that you dropped for this class(If it has improved versions, you also regain those).

Once per week abilities are boring and will almost never be used, and you need to link to homebrew things to make it more convenient for people who want to use it.



An Abomination has risen; Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-affecting effects, and have Nondetection. I'd be more clear about what exactly nondetection means.

Baernoloth Apothos; WIP

You've got an interesting thing going with the ToB type stuff, and I'd try to build a bit more off of that. Give it abilities that compliment that.

[Grimsage Matt]

Hidden; Remove the large size ya, and make it more like wild shape? Also, you'd need to use Greater dispel magic to dispel it.

As for mind rape and Genisis, Mind Rape was on the SLA list for them, and you can find Genisis at d20srd.org

Dark speech is from the Book of Vile darkness, and you can find it on realmshelps.net. They have a awesome feat finder.

Blessed by the first, Divine grace that also benifits AC. 1/2 Cha mod bonus?

As for divine beings, I use Xefas's defintion. I got the disiplines and the World body and world heart from his/her stuff.

As for the abillity scores, ya, they could use some work.

As for eyes of chaos, ya, those should scale a bit more. At first a perment arcane sight?

World body and the abillities related to it will be folded into the apothos. It's kind of a make your own world and create some living creature then anything else. Sort of a "Hi, I can control a world, can create life" kinda thing. More fun/ a cool little fortress then anything else.

As for Usher in Chaos, ya, that could use tweaking. It's ment to be part of the feud between the Gods and the Baernoloths, and that was the first thing I thought of.

As for life sight, ya. your right. Replacing that with something else.

As for Ancestors bidding, I even put that I copy/pasted and was going to change that. Keep the name and theme, but change it so it's not totaly op.

And or the Old times thing, ya make it a 1/day. Seeing how it lasts 24 hours anyway:smalltongue: Xenothurgy by RealmsofChaos, it's awesome.

Non-Dection, it's immune to divination abillities:smallbiggrin:

[Mystic Muse]

Hidden; Remove the large size ya, and make it more like wild shape? Also, you'd need to use Greater dispel magic to dispel it. remove the large size, and make it 1/day per HD rather than at-will and I think it'll be good.

Here is my own Silver Dragon class. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10996288&postcount=3) It has a few Alternate form abilities you could take inspiration from. Also, take a look at the spoiler entitled "Changelog" for an idea of how much changing you'll probably end up doing with this class, and any other level 20 classes.



As for mind rape and Genisis, Mind Rape was on the SLA list for them, and you can find Genisis at d20srd.org I meant more because genesis is largely only used for shenanigans. Also, you probably shouldn't use "It was in the original monster" as a justification if it's your only justification. I've kept abilities out of monster classes of my own because the only justification to have them in there would have been "It was in the original monster"

Naturally, these are your monster classes, and so long as they don't break the board rules, you can do whatever you damn well please with them. just giving some friendly advice based on my own observations. :smallsmile:



Dark speech is from the Book of Vile darkness, and you can find it on realmshelps.net. They have a awesome feat finder.

Mention you can find it in the Book of Vile Darkness in the entry and create an alternative if a player doesn't have access to it. Always assume that there's a chance players will only have access to the SRD. If a monster absolutely requires non-SRD stuff that's fine, but mention which book the thing you want them to have is in.



Blessed by the first, Divine grace that also benifits AC. 1/2 Cha mod bonus?

Divine Grace really should not have been a level 2 ability. If you want to keep this, I'd suggest putting it at around level 8-ish, making it be half at that point, then around level 18-ish have it be full.



As for divine beings, I use Xefas's defintion. I got the disiplines and the World body and world heart from his/her stuff.

If you're going to use somebody's definition of something, and it's not a WotC term, you have to quote them so that people know what you mean.

As for the disciplines, link to them in the ability. The less work you make it for a player/DM to check things out about the class, the more likely it'll be used.



As for eyes of chaos, ya, those should scale a bit more. At first a perment arcane sight? That'd be reasonable.



World body and the abillities related to it will be folded into the apothos. It's kind of a make your own world and create some living creature then anything else. Sort of a "Hi, I can control a world, can create life" kinda thing. More fun/ a cool little fortress then anything else. Ah, alright. That's a decent, flavorful capstone.



As for Usher in Chaos, ya, that could use tweaking. It's ment to be part of the feud between the Gods and the Baernoloths, and that was the first thing I thought of.

Hmm. If you want to keep the "Weakens divine spells" thing I'd ditch the unhallow/Unconsecrate as well since those benefit evil clerics and such. Instead, I'd have it be something like, "All Divine casters within X feet take a penalty to their caster level equal to 1/4 the Baernoloth's HD." At around 15 you could have it affect spell DCs the same amount.




As for Ancestors bidding, I even put that I copy/pasted and was going to change that. Keep the name and theme, but change it so it's not totaly op. Ah, okay.



And or the Old times thing, ya make it a 1/day. Seeing how it lasts 24 hours anyway:smalltongue: Xenothurgy by RealmsofChaos, it's awesome. If you're referencing somebody else's homebrew, you have to link it. There's really no ifs, ands or buts about this. If I were a DM and looking at this, I already have to check at least four different homebrew things in order to determine whether I consider this playable. Since I wouldn't be able to find those except by searching for them, given how terrible the site's search engine can be at times, I'd probably say "No" to allowing it simply because it'd take quite a while.

The quicker you can make the potential approval process for your class, the better.



Non-Dection, it's immune to divination abillities:smallbiggrin:

Ah, alright.

[LordofBones]

The baernoloths were the primordial agents of Evil, the powers who created the godless yugoloths. Why do they have abilities with Chaos names?

The statblock also got a few things wrong - it was the General of Gehenna, the first ultroloth, who purged the taint of law and chaos from the yugoloths; the taint in turn infecting the larvae who would become the baatezu and the tanar'ri.

There are baern still around; a few show up in Planescape, there's one in Dragon...353, I think, and there are a few who advise the General and the Oinoloth.

EDIT: The baern never feuded with the gods. The 'loths killed a god and turned him into the Khin-Oin, but the baern themselves keep out of divine affairs. The exception is Apomps, the renegade who created the gehreleths.

[Steward]

Dark Speech can also be found in Elder Evils, if in case anyone is worried about the fact that Book of Vile Darkness is a 3.0 supplement (instead of 3.5).

Soft Serve hit on a lot of my concerns about vagueness and other balance issues.

I like the idea of having the bearnoloth's abilities interfere with divine magic -- 'Usher in Chaos'; if you want, you could base this ability on a power featured in Elder Evils. In that book, each of the titular Elder Evils (basically, big campaign-ending supervillains) have two malefic properties, a supernatural power that they can use to wreak havoc. Three of them could be something that you like. The first is called divine enervation, and basically divine casters that are too close to the Elder Evil lose the ability to regain their spells. The second is divine scourge, which is a blast of evil energy that harms divine spellcasters. The third is impervious to the divine, which basically means what it sounds like -- the Elder Evil can't be affected by divine magic of any kind, from any source.

You could probably mix and match some of these abilities together for 'Usher in Chaos' since they sound like they're approximating what you're attempting to do here!


Lesser; Greater dispelling,

I think you want 'Greater Dispel Magic' here, right?

The only real problem I have with this is that it has a bewildering number of class features. Soft Serve already noted that some of them are redundant and can be consolidated. I think you should consolidate some of them too. You succeeded in not leaving any 'dead levels'/empty levels, but any DM who wants to include this class in their game would have to look up several non-Core material (and without any citations to which books each thing is from, they're not going to do that).


Non-Dection, it's immune to divination abillities

If that's what you want, you should specify that. The spell itself only requires a diviner to make a caster level check when trying to use a divination spell on the target creature or object. To make this ability functional, you should either flat-out declare that divination spells don't work on bearnoloths or give a save DC formula (the actual spell Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) has a DC of 11 + the caster level of the caster).


-Certain “noble” demons, devils and similar evil outsiders (as a rule of thumb, all such creatures chosable for “pact feats” like Thrall to Demon) are immune to this ability nevertheless.

I think for this, if you're going to keep this aspect of the ability in revision, can just be reworded as "Archdevils, demon princes, and evil outsiders with more than [X] HD are immune to this abilty". The way you have it worded, the DM would (theoretically) have to look up the "pact" feats and keep note of which creatures are supposed to be immune to this and which aren't, which will be a minor hassle at best. A hard and fast rule, one that uses easily lookup-able terms if necessary, is better than leaving it up to fuzzy discretion like that in this case.

[nyarlathotep]

List an alternative for mind rape at least. Similar to old pre made modules you should list it as mindrape (dominate monster if you do not have access to the BoVD).

Dark Speech is a feat whose uses come in one of two flavors, terrible and horrifically op. Considering it is both a non-srd feat and it is frequently banned it should not be given as a bonus feat.

Blessed by the First is an issue because the outsider's hit dice and the fact that you already have a scaling bonus to AC. Both could be given, but the save and AC bonuses should be given at seperate levels and not as low as you gave them. There is nothing wrong with giving them mindsight.

Ancestor's Bidding should 1) Have a limit on its times per day 2) have a DC equal to 10 +1/2 hitdice + some ability modifier and 3) have caster level equal to hitdice.

World heart is to be honest a kind of silly ability due to its overly complicated wording and seems to just be an attempt to shoehorn concepts from Exalted into the class.

This leads to the greater problem, which is that you describe them as beings of primal chaos from before the time of law bringing gods, but they are specifically also described as embodiments of pure evil. Furthermore the preexisting fluff for Baernaloths is that they are essentially the ultimate big bads of the multiverse if you want to tie all of evil together into a single team. They created demons and devils to spread evil in the world with yugoloths as their personal servants. Their whole shtick is not chaos and freedom but just normal evil and there are specifically mentioned to be theorized groups of creatures that serve as the progenitors of the other three alignments, but they are the only ones who appear to still have a concrete presence in the multiverse.

[Grimsage Matt]

I intialy Copy pasted a ton of the class features from free lisenced sources. Over the next couple of days, I'm planing on changing most of the stuff. And as I said for Ancestors bidding, and put it in, I'm plaing on nerfing that big time. I also base the motives off of Xefas's ideas, as well as the basic fact that after a long time building something up under the shadow of the Elder evils, wouldn't you be mad and want revenge on the narrow mindind and limited beings who tore down what you built? I see them as closer to Elder evils then Ultra powerful gods/outsiders, beings that by their very nature, you cannot truely comprehend as a mortal mind.


Before the birth of the infantile gods, before the petty and flawed gems of the planes began their wretched clockwork orbit upon the Great Wheel, before time and thought and matter, there were beings that existed as concept and story. They lived under the dreaded shadow of the Far Realm until their king wove a legend of such power and authority that he banished all darkness from their land, which they called Zen-Mu. There, they existed for eons impossible to number, peacefully and productively, spinning worlds and peoples and stories, until the Gods of Law came to be, in their hubris, to balance the scales of chaos.

The Gods of Law inflicted linear time and rigid causality on all things, slashing through the wondrous tales of their ancient predecessors and, in an act of true villainy, named these creatures; designating them 'Baernoloths'. Enraged at the rampant destruction of their works, the Baernoloths unleashed war upon the multitude of godly beings. Violence consumed every world-story of the Baernoloth's being, and for every wound the Lawgivers dealt, they used the severed threads to weave tools for themselves. From the slain, the gods created laws and barriers and possibilities, as well as magic to control them, and the corpses from both sides were stacked high and sown together to forge a magnificent Wheel, upon which those defeated titans would be hung and mutilated to form the Outer Planes.


Long ago, in the first days, when the Gods of Law had first arisen, but had not yet taken to mutilating the primordial chaos into the Great Wheel that we know today, there was already an ancient race in its final decline. The Baernoloths were the first fragments of that roiling anarchy that developed sapience and identity. Incalculably vast and terrible in power, they yet hid their majesty for fear of what their descendants would first name "The Far Realm". Where that wretched place had bled, the primordial chaos grew, but outside lurked creatures still to be feared.

None could say how long they waited, trembling beneath the notice of the eldritch horrors above. They had, one and all, bound themselves to some degree, so they would not fall back into the chaos. They had forms to speak of now, even if those forms were of world-flowers that hungered for all things, or of bleak shadows of things that had not yet come to pass. Those forms could be shattered and dissolved, and so they feared.

It was the one among them that had changed the least, who eventually arose. He was boundlessness given shape; the identity of having no limitations. His form was nearly indistinguishable from the primordial chaos around him. He shaped it as he shaped himself, and called to his brothers and sisters, proclaiming himself their king. The abominations from the Far Realm took notice of this, as all the Baernoloths had feared. The malformed entities beyond closed in upon the wound in their hideous tapestry, but as they did so, the Empyreal Chaos raised his fist in defiance, and the womb of existence shuttered and enveloped the chaos by his will, and closed the Far Realm off from his subjects for all time.

The Baernoloths praised their new king and, free to work, they fashioned the Obyriths and the Baatorians, races that would go on to become progenitor architects themselves. It was around this time that the Gods of Law came to be, and constructed their Archons to butcher the children of the Baernoloths. While the Archons, lead by the Gods' greatest disciple, Asmodeus, extinguished the Baatorians, and set to work on the Obyrith, the Gods themselves did battle with the Baernoloths.

The struggle was vicious, but in the end, the Lawgivers triumphed, and tore asunder the world-bodies of their ancient foes. Stricken with inspiration, they conceived of a grand design, the Great Wheel, that could now be made possible. Their power to create from the chaos was limited, but now they had the broken bodies of the Baernoloths as solid materials, and so they sowed the conceptual flesh and notional bones into Planes of Existence.

And so it was that the Empyreal Chaos was no more. But, mistakenly, when the Gods bolted his corpse into place, to seal the Abyss off from the other sixteen Outer Planes, his heart remained intact. The gobs of primordial flesh that clung to it fell and formed Malfeas, the 627th Layer of the Abyss. This Layer is a bastion against the betrayer-gods, and a haven for any and all who wish to see them plucked from the sky and shattered upon the earth. Not even the deities of Chaos and Evil dare tread upon it, for the dread heart of Malfeas still beats - an impossibly bright star of green fire; Ligier, the Green Sun. Burning with infinite rage, but bound within his layer, his eyes and ears extend to every corner of the plane, waiting for the faintest sign of god or priest, that he might obliterate them in a nuclear conflagration.


Among the ancient Baernoloths, their king, the Empyreal Chaos (see the Malfeasant Heart discipline) was unmatched in every respect. Infinitely powerful, infinitely wise – he knew no peer in any endeavour that he attempted. And yet, there was one being who drew his respect unquestioningly – his sister, Cecelyne. As he was their king, she was their popess, a hierophant and judge to creatures whose nature was absolute chaos and whose bodies were countless worlds and impossible thoughts. When she spoke, they listened, and although her laws were capricious and esoteric by the standards of the gods and mortals who would come to be, there was a power in them, and they were obeyed to the best the Baernoloths could manage.

When the time of the Gods of Law came to pass, Cecelyne fought fiercely in defense of her people and her king. At that time, her body was that of a world of utmost purity; continental panes of glass so clear and pristine that even the gods could not see them until their ranks were hewn asunder and divine blood stained the surface. Truly, she was mighty, and none could fell her in battle. It was not until the war had all but ended, and the Empyreal Chaos lay slain and mutilated, that she lay down arms and surrendered peacefully to the Lawgivers.

Unfortunately, far too paranoid to allow something so powerful to continue to exist, the Gods of Law gave no heed to her surrender and took that moment of weakness to bind Cecelyne with their power. While her world-body quaked with fury, the Gods' three greatest Archon champions infiltrated the sanctum that passed for a Baernoloth's mind, and did battle with Cecelyne's ideals. First, they struck down her Hope – that part of her that allowed her to believe in a better tomorrow, to conceive of redemption or remorse, to ever know safety or contentment. This, the Gods would later use to bind the plane of Carceri into the wheel. Next, they took from her, her Authority – her ability to lead through example and integrity, rather than fear or deception. Taking up Authority's severed heart, a blood-red ruby of immense size and perfection, Asmodeus forged the rod which would become synonymous with him for eons to come. Finally, they destroyed Cecelyne's Purity – her restraint, her empathy, her innocence and love. The blood collected here would be used in the enchantments inlaid within the Pact Primeval.

And so it was that Cecelyne knew defeat – her glass now shattered into innumerable grains of silver sand. Broken and beaten, the gods bolted her weeping and insane form to the outer edges of the Great Wheel, forming a chasm of desolation and horror between themselves and the Far Realm. To this day, the Endless Desert still clings to life, knowing only torment and sorrow and loss. Some savants of that particular knowledge theorize that she is the betwixt-realm that Vestiges call home, where they wander the endless dunes knowing neither time, or hope, or sustenance until a Binder calls upon them. It is difficult to say with any certainty, for only a few mortals have ever ventured there. One claims to have happened upon it while lost amidst the Astral Sea. Another fell through the 627th layer of the Abyss and found themselves there. A third found that time itself was particularly malleable in that place, and managed to reappear in the Prime five days before the event that sent them there – their own suicide.


Martial Disciples are, at their core, expressions of ideas. Whenever a master has designed his own discipline, he has poured into it his own feelings and ideologies, such that the discipline makes statements - expressions of art, of love, of dominance, of self-perfection, of camaraderie.

The disciplines most know throughout the Planes - Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, White Raven, and others - have been created by mortals, and reflected their desires. They show the mortals' fear of death, or love of victory, or their philosophies of perfecting their own imperfect forms. Some of the more exotic disciplines, such as Dread Crown, have been created by Outsiders, and such disciplines represent dedication to a higher moral concept, such as Evil, rather than the petty problems of the lesser Primes.

The Infernal Monster discipline resonates with ideals far baser than either. It is the expression of pure, untainted savagery. Savagery not dealt due to hunger, ignorance, sadness, self-preservation, or sadism. Only a select few men will ever press against such feelings - when they lose themselves in the primal rage of violence, and they hurt others for no other reason than because they can do nothing else. The Infernal Monster has no master, and cannot be taught. It may only be learned when one has lost themselves fully to unrestrained brutality, and lives for nothing but destruction.

[Mystic Muse]

You know, if you're not supposed to be able to comprehend them with a mortal mind...doesn't it seem odd to make them playable? :smalltongue:

[Grimsage Matt]

Note, Truely Comphrend. and in the end, this guys only going to be a weak Baernoloth:smallbiggrin: Besides, just be slightly insane and you should be fine. Way easier done then said. and no, that's not a mistake.

[Mystic Muse]

Note, Truely Comphrend. and in the end, this guys only going to be a weak Baernoloth:smallbiggrin: Besides, just be slightly insane and you should be fine. Way easier done then said. and no, that's not a mistake.

I know, I'm just joking around a bit.:smallsmile: