Why is it hard to pitch a good align drow?

[Akisa]

So why is it so difficult to pitch the idea for a good align drow? I liked Elistraee’s fluff in Forgotten Realm and I noticed that Dervish Dancer archetype with Dervish Dancer feat was perfect for the theme (minus the Scimitar only restriction for the feat, instead of Bastard Sword). The most often response is that Drow are suppose to be evil, despite Elistraee’s fluff saying a small portion of them are not. The second reason is that they never work out.

[Marthinwurer]

Drizzt clones. Nuff' said.

[gomipile]

People see them as cliché. That's probably the main reason.

[Loki_42]

I'd imagine a lot of it is from the endless waves of carbon copy CG Drizz't clones that new players will often make. When you've seen hundreds of identical dual-scimitar wielding Drow, you start thinking all of them are the same, even the rare good-aligned, but fully original drow.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Alleran]

You might be better off trying to avoid the dual-wield aspect of a good drow. For reasons that have already been elaborated on.

[Akisa]

You might be better off trying to avoid the dual-wield aspect of a good drow. For reasons that have already been elaborated on.

I was, even the feat dancer dervish requires your off hand to be free to get dex to hit and damage for scimitars.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Because people are unable to allow a character or concept to exist within a vacuum in a game.

Also: I've still yet to see one of these supposed "Drizzt Clones" in the wild, I'm pretty sure that's all in people's heads.

[Morithias]

It's not hard to pitch a good aligned drow, you just need to be creative with it.

Try something like a drow good aligned cleric of Estanna.

A drow woman who likes being in the kitchen? Didn't see that one coming..of course don't insult her cooking or you'll get a nice dagger in the face.

Given the right backstory and fluff, one can make almost any concept work.

[Calanon]

My old friend alway played Drows... He liked the race (Never really understood why) Was always Chaotic Good... not a Drizz't copy but certainly had his own flair... Everything he always did always keep us on edge and paranoid (Not because he was a Drow, because of the person RP'ing him)

He played a very good Drow... I miss that guy... :smallfrown: Personally, I feel that if/when I return to play with my old group regardless of all the knowledge that I've gathered on Optimization he would still be just as intimidating with just sheer RP prowess :smallamused:

Anywho! A Good aligned Drow is entirely possible without being a Drizz't copy just try and be different from each other Drow... If you want to be a Drow Wizard, be a Drow Wizard. If you want to devote your life to a sadistic witch that thinks she is so much better then everyone else (Even though shes totally not), then be a Drow Cleric and if you want to charge around swinging a battle axe big enough to have the party making compensation jokes, be a Drow Barbarian... Since deciding to read through the Eberron books I learned that you can't simply say a class can't be something just because it "feels" out of place... Otherwise you'd have a bunch of Elf Wizards, Human Fighters, and Orc Barbarians and how boring would that be? :smallannoyed:

tl;dr Don't sterotype and RP to the best of your abilities and your Drow [insert class here] will be fine :smallsmile:

[Marthinwurer]

Because people are unable to allow a character or concept to exist within a vacuum in a game.

Also: I've still yet to see one of these supposed "Drizzt Clones" in the wild, I'm pretty sure that's all in people's heads.

Well, the first one I saw was my own, but at least mine wasn't actually a drow. Still a chaotic good elven ranger worshiping ehlonna while TWFing scimitars. I have seen others, though. Most people who get introduced to D&D through the series will at least think of making one.

[erikun]

The biggest reason I've seen against good-aligned drow is Drizzt clones. The second is against good-aligned characters of an "evil" race. Cries of Mary Sue-dom end up falling somewhere between the two, typically.

I actually do like Eilistraee drow; the idea of benevolent and joyful drow make the entire race actually more interesting, and the cruel parts of the culture stand out more. After all, it's one thing to have an evil culture with evil gods because everyone is evil (with few exceptions). It's far different to have an evil culture with evil gods because the society just behaves that way, and some drow don't find it preferable.


I've had thoughts of a drow druid and clerics of Eilistraee, so I wouldn't say the concept is that abstract.

[Darth Stabber]

As everyone has stated before Drizzt clones (and I have seen them, and when I gm for them, they routinely meet a grizzly fate {no i am not a perfectly neutral GM, and occasionally I do something petty}), but erikun hit the nail on the head with the Mary-Sue comment. I generally dislike anyone playing very evil races as good. They can be played well, but usually aren't. They could be neutral, and would be more realistic characters, but no they choose to be insufferably good, and devoid of real character issues to make them likable.

Also drow really suck, even with a whole book dedicated to them (DotU) they still fail to be worth 2LA(and a con penalty). You are better off playing an elf with a severe skin pigmentation problem than a drow (and most other elves suck too, so there you go).

[Alleran]

Also drow really suck, even with a whole book dedicated to them (DotU) they still fail to be worth 2LA(and a con penalty). You are better off playing an elf with a severe skin pigmentation problem than a drow (and most other elves suck too, so there you go).
Isn't that why they invented lesser drow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2)?

[Darth Stabber]

Isn't that why they invented lesser drow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2)?

Which also suck, though not as bad as their :smallconfused: greater :smallconfused:kin.

[Ashtagon]

The drizzt clones started during the 2e era. The +2 LA was made to stem the tide of drizzt clones that were being played back then. Judging by results mentioned in this thread, I'd say it worked.

[Rodimal]

One of my favorite characters that I ever played was a second edition (later converted to 3.5) Drow Rogue/fighter and later Paladin named Dri'el do Mariador. Yes he was a dual-wielder, a Longsword and a Scimitar. The Longsword was an legacy weapon of sorts (Sword of Sharpness, named GriphonEdge) and the Scimitar (called FlameBreath) he had made for him.

[Golden Ladybug]

Because Drizzt.

Also, I don't understand why you'd even want to play a Good aligned Drow? Alignments shouldn't be a boundary to a good time, if you're group is mature enough to play Evil characters at all. Playing a Drow who must stomach her revulsion at being forced to work with non-drows so that they can succeed on their quest, and slowly warming up to her companions and becoming friends, gaining a measure of understanding and still being unrepentantly evil would be great. Tension keeps storytelling interesting, and there's nothing like conflicting idealogies and a willingness to eat babies to bring some tension to the table :smallwink:


My old friend alway played Drows... He liked the race (Never really understood why)

Probably because Drow are amazing :smallamused:

If it weren't for the +2LA, I'd play Drow all the time. And if Lesser Drow weren't so cringeworthy, I might even play them.

[Zaq]

Because drow are one of the few races where I just cannot force myself to ignore the WotC fluff—and I hate the WotC fluff on drow. It's so dumb. Part of it, admittedly, may be due to the fact that my friends and I have this whole thing with drow . . . we have a specific voice we use, and this whole big stereotype that goes along with it . . . but goddammit, it's all backed up by the execrable WotC fluff, which we have to mock to survive. So yeah, I don't care if you're a goody two-shoes out to slay all the Drizzt clones in the world or a cackling spider-humping Lolthian, a drow's a drow, and I can't stand 'em.

[Ravens_cry]

Maybe they're a foundling. Because of a birth defect, they were exposed, but were rescued by a kind-hearted </insert race here>.

[Golden Ladybug]

Because drow are one of the few races where I just cannot force myself to ignore the WotC fluff—and I hate the WotC fluff on drow. It's so dumb. Part of it, admittedly, may be due to the fact that my friends and I have this whole thing with drow . . . we have a specific voice we use, and this whole big stereotype that goes along with it . . . but goddammit, it's all backed up by the execrable WotC fluff, which we have to mock to survive. So yeah, I don't care if you're a goody two-shoes out to slay all the Drizzt clones in the world or a cackling spider-humping Lolthian, a drow's a drow, and I can't stand 'em.

But that's the best part :smalltongue:

Okay, maybe not quite as ridiculous as that, but I actually really like the Drow Fluff, so each to their own. And if the default fluff is what your beef with them is, Eberron Drow break the mold a fair bit, fighting Giants, being pragmatic and throwing Boomerangs at people, so that's cool too.

[Calanon]

Probably because Drow are amazing :smallamused:

If it weren't for the +2LA, I'd play Drow all the time. And if Lesser Drow weren't so cringeworthy, I might even play them.

No, in PVP I would have whipped him senseless regardless (Human Wizard Vs Drow Sorcerer/Spellthief type thingy, nuff said)

It was just how he played the character that made him so interesting... Whenever I play I'm always so distant unless I'm being forced into the center stage :smallannoyed:

[Golden Ladybug]

Well, that has nothing to do with the Race, but more to do with the Players. And, depending on how he built his Drow Sorc/Spellthief, he might have been a bit more of a challenge than you think. Drow have some nice racial SR that they can bring to the table.

And anyway, PVP isn't the ultimate indicator of the worth of a Race or Class :smallwink:

[Darth Stabber]

. . . we have a specific voice we use...

I don't have a specific voice I use, I just give them italian accents (except for one with an intentionally bad/fake german accent, it was funny at the time). And high elves get french, and wood elves get spanish. It happened because I was trying to correlate all of the languages to real world languages and therefore have a consistant linguistic structure. Since draconic is a common language of magical scholarship, it became latin (no I don't have an accent for that, I don't know what ancient romans sounded like), from their elven languages were based on draconic (read it somewhere, don't remember where, but it sounded reasonable), and thus elves needed accents from romance languages. Which elves got which accent was kind of arbitrary, but french high elves sounded right. Plus with italian dark elves I get to use all the mafioso godfather stuff when talking with them which added a nice touch, and thus the only other romance accent I could fake recognizably (note I didn't say well) was spanish and the wood elves got it (since they were the only other elves I was allowing).

After that common naturally became english (since most speaking in the game is common and my players and I are american). The ubiquitous scottish accent was picked for dwarves (not because it made sense, just a conceit to genre convention). I haven't had to go much further other than picking irish accents for faeries.

Wow a random little aside can get long quickly.

[Longcat]

Personally? It's because everyone who wanted to play a Drow in the games I played would *Always* play one that didn't fit the fluff. True, there are good aligned Drow. But they're a minority. But if everyone who wants to play them plays good-aligned ones, it's like D&D vampires being consistently portrayed as sparkling Twilight vampires.

[Ravens_cry]

I think it might be fun to play a Lawful Evil militaristic drow, who finds the debauchery and decadence repulsive.
They're still evil, just in a more calm, cold way.

[Malachei]

I think it is much more interesting to pitch a good Derro, or an evil halfling.

[sonofzeal]

One of my friends has been playing a good-aligned Drow... modelled after Fluttershy. The result is almost disturbingly adorable, the sort of military-grade cuteness that reduces hardened soldiers to puppylike complacency. It is awesome.

[Solaris]

Because you haven't been playing with me.

Hey, I once allowed a half-dragon hydra as a PC - in the same party as a half-nymph drow paladin of freedom, no less. I'd say the closest to a Drizz't clone there was the human fighter/rogue who dual-wielded bastard swords and murderized via stealth. So long as there's more to the character than "Exactly like Drizz't", I'll let you try it out. Personally, I don't think it'd kill anybody if more DMs were like that. What's the worst that'll happen? It turns out really crappy and we have to suffer through it for a little while before I twist your arm and you make a new character?

[unundindur]

I have thought it would be interesting to see a sinister elf community (Moon elves?) raid a drow encampment and steal their babies. Later on these babies would be trained as scouts and assassins by the elves, and sent out to do SEAL-missions against the drow. I love the delicate nastyness of opposite Szarkai :smallamused:

I also think this could make for very interesting characters with the weirdest moral conflicts. Trained in the more sinister parts of a peace-loving society, and sent to kill people who look like themselves, but who they share no cultural traits with.

[Lord_Gareth]

It can be hard to pitch good-aligned drow both because some DMs are married to established fluff (there is a thread that the quote in my siggy links to with nearly fifty pages of arguing about that) and because a lot of folks want to go beyond 'unusual and exceptional' (a normal Player Character) and into 'I am the most special ever'. That being said, I do think there's a lot of potential for a good-aligned drow character, especially when his or her ideals find themselves tested by constant exposure to the worst sides of the sapient races - bigotry, prejudice, fear, mob violence and sometimes even torture.

I think the last good-aligned drow I played was the victim of a magical accident when she was an infant; she was teleported out of the Underdark and into a moon elf village (Forgotten Realms game). They raised her as one of their own after much debate, but she faced a lot of discrimination and prejudice even then. When she finally learned the truth of her heritage, she set out to find an Underdark entrance with little more than basic traveling gear and a tattoo on the back of her wrist that marked her as an elf-friend, innocently convinced that her real parents must be worried sick about her.

Fun campaign, all in all.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

I think the Drizzt clone problem might actually be something else entirely.

Look at the Monster Manual - the first one. There's a lot of monsters in there. How many are technically playable races? How many of *those* can you play at a relatively low level? And out of *that*.. how many do people have any interest in playing?

Orc sees play pretty much based solely on +4 to Strength and no LA.
Kobold's "competition", in my books, is Goblin. Even strictly by MM, Kobolds are more interesting. They have Sorcerer as a favoured class which is all sorts of fun on its own, and they have natural armor.

People want to play different things because they're cool. You want to play a dragon? A wyrmling white dragon is EL 5 on its own, and a half-dragon is LA +3, meaning at least EL 4.

What makes drow cool? Part of it is the fact that they're "usually neutral evil" - that is, an evil race. Part of it is the fact that we have a good 30 years' of history to fall back on (Drow were introduced in 1E in Fiend Folio - published 1981 - and Unearthed Arcana, 1985). Part of it is the fact that you get to play an Elf from the mechanical end without having to worry about playing an Elf from the "fluff" end.

Then there's this issue: People forever want to be able to play against type. The Orc Wizard. The Kobold Barbarian. The Dwarven pacifist. The Succubus Paladin. And people are forever holding up Drizzt Do'Urden as the primarily example of a successful D&D character that's "played against type". I mean, aeons ago, way back in 1E, rangers had to be Good - LG, NG, or CG. And Drow were evil. I think they were actually CE back then with a structured society, which would explain NE now.

The problem is, because it's the most commonly-shown and commonly-understood example, people want to try it. Even if it's not exactly Drizzt, they want something similar in some fashion. And yes, I've had at least one player who was always wanting to latch onto playing a Drow, which I allowed a few times. (In 2E it was easy - a Drow simply got a 20% XP penalty regardless of class or level. This made it playable at first level.)

So what do you do? Ideally, someone allows the player to try one and get it out of their system. I think that player just wants to see what makes them so cool from a PC perspective. That being said, I highly recommend finding a way to ensure that it's *not* a Drizzt clone. Drizzt was a Chaotic Good Fighter/Ranger who wielded two swords - scimitars, I believe. If you want to play a Drow, FIND AN OBVIOUS WAY TO MAKE SURE IT'S NOT DRIZZT!! You stand a much higher acceptance that way. Orc may be a race, but it's mostly relegated to a combat role. Drow have a bonus to Intelligence and to Charisma in addition to what standard Elves get (+2 Dex/-2 Con). Don't jam them into the same kind of narrow-minded role that Orcs end up in.

Mindstab Thrull

[Hiro]

I used a LE Drow wizard/mindbender once. It was hilarious to see HIM controlling his house using the Eternal charm ability on his own matron mother.

[Eigenclass]

These are all good points, but I think many of you are missing the point on why "Drizz't clones" are a bad thing for your D&D game. It's not about originality. The bigger issue is that simply having a "good Drow" in your game distracts from the actual story, and can be very disruptive and irritating to DM.

Let me give you a scenario. Your party wants to do a routine bounty run into town, turn in gnoll ears for gold or something, but they're stopped at the gate because one of the characters is a Drow zomg and the reputation of his/her evil kin zomg X 2! Immediately, your campaign has been derailed, because now you need to drop your plot and deal with this one attention-seeking idiot's need to be "special".

The only way this would ever work is in R.A. Salvatore books where the story is literally about Drizz't, but in a practical game, I think it's unfair that one character's backstory gets to eclipse not only the other players, but the DM's main plot, as well.

Something like systemic discrimination or racism is simply not a minor-enough concept that it won't disrupt the main plotline, and you should be able to understand why most DMs won't allow it (unless they plan for it to be part of the story).

[Hiro]

Drizzt was the result of a large amount of bad decisions made by Malice and all.

They should've just broken his ass down completely like the marines would've. Broken him completely then rebuild him from the ground up.

[Calanon]

I used a LE Drow wizard/mindbender once. It was hilarious to see HIM controlling his house using the Eternal charm ability on his own matron mother.

Gotta be honest, it made me think of this... (http://images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/3/3e/Reaper_Indoctrination_Codex.ogg)

Bonus points if you took Arcane Disciple for the Domination Domain (Gotta love that Monstrous Thrall) :smallamused:

[Particle_Man]

I(Drow were introduced in 1E in Fiend Folio - published 1981 - and Unearthed Arcana, 1985).

Technically Drow get a mention in the 1st ed AD&D MM before either of those works, (a sub-entry under elf but it is not "statted up").

You want to make some DMs' heads explode, try for a good psionic drow. :smallsmile:

[Hiro]

Yeah I used that too. I was very fun.

But Good Psionic Drow? I haven't done that: it's funner to be neutral or bad with psionics: Want to make an enemy's head explode liek a pimple using telekinetic force? Go right aehad and pat yourself on the back..wait you're good? BAD BOY *swats with newspaper*

yeah bad is better with psi

[OracleofSilence]

Well I actually had a player in my party that was playing a CG drow once (even though he thought he was Neutral). ultimately the entire campaign was made even funnier by the fact. the player entered the game with a mask (just a regular mask) that made him look like an elf.

He never once admited he was drow over the entire length of the game. He ALSO never did anything at all helpful in combat, bu that is another story.

[erikun]

Let me give you a scenario. Your party wants to do a routine bounty run into town, turn in gnoll ears for gold or something, but they're stopped at the gate because one of the characters is a Drow zomg and the reputation of his/her evil kin zomg X 2! Immediately, your campaign has been derailed, because now you need to drop your plot and deal with this one attention-seeking idiot's need to be "special".
I don't see how this is any different from having a minotaur, kobold, illithid, hobgoblin, or any other non-standard race in the party. The drow player would either make it a point for proclaiming their independence from their evil-kin, or making a point to disguise themselves for entering towns, both good roleplay points.

I am assuming, of course, that the game is okay with non-standard races; it is clearly a disruption to show up with a drow demonbinder in a human-elf-dwarf good-only campaign.

[Solaris]

I don't see how this is any different from having a minotaur, kobold, illithid, hobgoblin, or any other non-standard race in the party. The drow player would either make it a point for proclaiming their independence from their evil-kin, or making a point to disguise themselves for entering towns, both good roleplay points.

I am assuming, of course, that the game is okay with non-standard races; it is clearly a disruption to show up with a drow demonbinder in a human-elf-dwarf good-only campaign.

Well, honestly, the major physical difference between a drow and a runty elf is pigmentation. Disguise kits for the win!
I daresay a drow is easier to pass off as 'normal' than a minotaur, kobold, illithid, or even a hobgoblin.

[Zilzmaer]

Personally, I really like the drow fluff. But I'm also getting annoyed with how much stuff is being written for good drow, especially Forgotten Realms stuff. If good drow are such a small percentage, they should have a small amount of material. That way, the player can come up with their own fluff. The only drow I've played, though, was very evil in a primarily non-evil mgame; he lasted ten or fifteen sessions, during which his biggest notable act was to make a cloak of flayed human faces. The good party members were less than pleased.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, honestly, the major physical difference between a drow and a runty elf is pigmentation. Disguise kits for the win!
I daresay a drow is easier to pass off as 'normal' than a minotaur, kobold, illithid, or even a hobgoblin.
So. . .white face?
To be honest, a Minotaur's disguise check is just a big axe that says " I is Elf" across the head.
No one questions it oddly enough.

[Vizzerdrix]

Also: I've still yet to see one of these supposed "Drizzt Clones" in the wild, I'm pretty sure that's all in people's heads.

I've seen several (two in one game even).

I've also been accused of playing one. Mind you I was playing a dwarf at the time. A TWF ranger even. With hammers. The only thing similar was I had a big cat but only couse the DM loved using ladders to strip my other animal companion choices away.:smallfurious:

[Darrin]

Technically Drow get a mention in the 1st ed AD&D MM before either of those works, (a sub-entry under elf but it is not "statted up").


Actual stattable, killable drow first appeared in G3: Hall of the Fire Giant King, published in 1978. The MM was published in 1977, and it looks like Gygax was working on the G-series in between that and the original Player's Handbook in 1978. I would guess he was already planning on using them as the mysterious evil force behind the giants' alliance while writing the MM, and included the mention of "dark elf" legends as a bit of ominous foreshadowing for his players.

[Talakeal]

I have liked dark elves since playing one in Daggerfall back in 1996, long before I had ever heard of Drizzt. Indeed, I would imagine the only "Dark Elf" in D&D I knew about was Dalamar in Dragonlance, and he isn't even a proper Drow, merely a fallen gray elf.

I also don't like playing evil characters. When I RP I usually want to be someone better than what I am in real life, and usually that means morally as well as physically.

That said, a lot of DMs have fits when I want to play a drow, and many outright refuse it for no solid reason, some of them even changing their campaign world so that good races killed evil races on sight 100% of the time regardless of logic or morality.

I can see on this board that such a sentiment is alive and well, and it is frankly surprising how many people have such strong and irrational prejudices against a made up race.

[bloodtide]

Drizzt clones are very, very annoying. And most of the time when someone wants to play a 'good drow', they fall into the following categories:

1. The player knows nothing about drow other then they are Coolz! They don't even know why they want to play a drow, other then they are Coolz to the awesomo extreme. Often this type of role-player does not even role play, but when they do, the 'good drow' is most often just the player being himself.

2.The player is a cheating, rule breaking and bending optimizer. He has some sort of wacky build and plan to be powerful, and needs to be a drow to pull it off. He will, try to keep this secret and just say he loves drow.

3.The player wants to take advantage of the evil side of the drow, by scaring foes, for example. Or getting free stuff. Getting everything they want by fear and intimidation. But, of course, at the exact same time they want none of the bad stuff to happen to them. So the guards won't attack the drow on sight or anything.

4.A classic is where the 'good' drow slips back into 'evil' and then tried to say ''oh, oops, just playing my character.'' They will burn down a school with kids inside, and then try to just say ''oh that was my evil dark side..I'm trying to control it''.

5.The player will try to have an elaborate 'good' backstory where they 'stepped on a special Lloth spider'' or something so that the whole of drow society is after them. Not that they want to be attack...except in the modern way of a 'mortal combat' type fight where they can be ready. Mostly they just want to be super cool for being ''the one drow'' who upset all the rest.

[Ravens_cry]

As I said in other threads, there is a bit of Mary Sue in almost any player character.
A player characterdrow doesn't have to be a Drizz't clone either.

[Solaris]

5.The player will try to have an elaborate 'good' backstory where they 'stepped on a special Lloth spider'' or something so that the whole of drow society is after them. Not that they want to be attack...except in the modern way of a 'mortal combat' type fight where they can be ready. Mostly they just want to be super cool for being ''the one drow'' who upset all the rest.

To be fair, that isn't at all out of character for Lolth or the drow. They crazy, man, they crazy.

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if 5 years from now there will be a thread bemoaning the players who insist on wanting to play that one chaotic evil aligned halfling with two daggers. :smallsmile:

[Ravens_cry]

I wonder if 5 years from now there will be a thread bemoaning the players who insist on wanting to play that one chaotic evil aligned halfling with two daggers. :smallsmile:
Belkar is a fun character to read about, but he would ruin many games IRL. The sexy, shoeless god of war is a pretty unoptimized character, as well as being a jerkish one.

[Wings of Peace]

It's not hard to pitch a good aligned drow, you just need to be creative with it.

Try something like a drow good aligned cleric of Estanna.

A drow woman who likes being in the kitchen? Didn't see that one coming..of course don't insult her cooking or you'll get a nice dagger in the face.

Given the right backstory and fluff, one can make almost any concept work.

I think we don't see homemaker drow women because they get murdered by the more independent and conquest minded drow women.

[Akisa]

2.The player is a cheating, rule breaking and bending optimizer. He has some sort of wacky build and plan to be powerful, and needs to be a drow to pull it off. He will, try to keep this secret and just say he loves drow.



What build requires being a drow. These whacky builds tend to fit any race, and is probably easier to build with various other races. In 3.5 they have LA. In PF there is other races with +2 dex and Cha.

[Ravens_cry]

I think we don't see homemaker drow women because they get murdered by the more independent and conquest minded drow women.
Which why you need more of a 'Silk Hiding Steel' style woman homemaker, a lady of fierce determination of will who appears to be a fragile flower, but teaches her enemies to remember that the sweetest rose has the sharpest thorns.

[hamishspence]

What build requires being a drow. These whacky builds tend to fit any race, and is probably easier to build with various other races. In 3.5 they have LA. In PF there is other races with +2 dex and Cha.

I think it may be the "female Drow cavalier dual-wielding lances from the back of a unicorn" that's mentioned in the Gygax tribute strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html

That's a build that was pre-3rd ed.

[Wings of Peace]

2.The player is a cheating, rule breaking and bending optimizer. He has some sort of wacky build and plan to be powerful, and needs to be a drow to pull it off. He will, try to keep this secret and just say he loves drow.



Is this really a thing? Drow are normally suboptimal to play.

[Morithias]

I think we don't see homemaker drow women because they get murdered by the more independent and conquest minded drow women.

Yes...the CE ones. Please note that we're talking about good-aligned drow that aren't clone of Gary Stu over there.

I'm just saying, Drow woman in the kitchen, your players will NEVER see it coming. It's like finding a high elf that isn't racist.

[Thalnawr]

Wind resistance... Those ears make it really hard to use Drow of any alignment as ranged weapons, honestly. Otherwise, the good-aligned dual scimitar wielding ones would be excellent in the "Fastball Special" maneuver.

(What, you expected a serious answer now that everyone else has beaten the point into the ground?)

[Darth Stabber]

I wonder if 5 years from now there will be a thread bemoaning the players who insist on wanting to play that one chaotic evil aligned halfling with two daggers. :smallsmile:

Belkar is already an example of a fairly common trope: players wanting to play characters unshackled by morality and ethics (and their respect for the law goes only as far as not wanting to be caught? With some not even paying more than lip sevice to that end). This is why I generally prefer LE characters if evil is on the table, they tend to run a touch more complex in motivation (ie not purely atavistic whimsy and slaughter) and more thoughtful in action. Now this is only a tendency I have noticed, I have seen well run chaotic chaotic evil characters that have more than bloodshed on their mind, the difference is that LE forces a certain level of forethought that is not forced on CE.

I have allowed 1 player to play a drow not too long ago, and that was only after seeing that his background was not all drizzty, and he was LG. It turned out well (though after 1 session when he received the customary free edit I give after first session he switched to half-vampire). I stopped allowing them about 5 years ago after I had 3 different players that came to me with drizzt clones for the same campaign (out of 5 players)!

[Ravens_cry]

This is why I generally prefer LE characters if evil is on the table, they tend to run a touch more complex in motivation (ie not purely atavistic whimsy and slaughter)
Heh, I really like the poetry of this statement.:smallcool:

[Eigenclass]

I don't see how this is any different from having a minotaur, kobold, illithid, hobgoblin, or any other non-standard race in the party. The drow player would either make it a point for proclaiming their independence from their evil-kin, or making a point to disguise themselves for entering towns, both good roleplay points.

I think you mean trite, attention-seeking roleplay points that take away from the other players actually trying to engage in the story. The same applies for players trying to sneak monster races into stories where they don't belong.

If you want to be low-key about it, fine, you're welcome to explore your character archetype in any way you wish. The very roundyou start trying to upstage the main plot with your personal tale of tragedy, bam. Lloth has decided not to repeat her mistakes with Drizzt and Liriel, and appears as an avatar with an army of balors to make an example of you. Sure, it's crazy, and could set off a war of the gods, but what can you expect? She's CHAOTIC. See? DMs can roleplay too.



2.The player is a cheating, rule breaking and bending optimizer. He has some sort of wacky build and plan to be powerful, and needs to be a drow to pull it off. He will, try to keep this secret and just say he loves drow.

You know, this is probably the one reason to welcome a Drow character, just to see what sort of "optimization" they'd come up with that absolutely requires a Drow. Fair warning - since you're so leetsauce and all, don't start whining when you get singled out for especially disproportionate-EL challenges.

[Akisa]

I think you mean trite, attention-seeking roleplay points that take away from the other players actually trying to engage in the story. The same applies for players trying to sneak monster races into stories where they don't belong.

If you want to be low-key about it, fine, you're welcome to explore your character archetype in any way you wish. The very roundyou start trying to upstage the main plot with your personal tale of tragedy, bam. Lloth has decided not to repeat her mistakes with Drizzt and Liriel, and appears as an avatar with an army of balors to make an example of you. Sure, it's crazy, and could set off a war of the gods, but what can you expect? She's CHAOTIC. See? DMs can roleplay too.




You know, this is probably the one reason to welcome a Drow character, just to see what sort of "optimization" they'd come up with that absolutely requires a Drow. Fair warning - since you're so leetsauce and all, don't start whining when you get singled out for especially disproportionate-EL challenges.

So what happens if the Drow was born to a surface community that worshiped Elistraee? So Lolth will still get upset for loosing a follower she had never had?

[Particle_Man]

I stopped allowing them about 5 years ago after I had 3 different players that came to me with drizzt clones for the same campaign (out of 5 players)!

That is a lot of drizzty drow. Maybe they really *were* clones.

Wait a second what if you ran Paranoia, but, like, for drizzt clones? :smallcool:

[Ravens_cry]

So what happens if the Drow was born to a surface community that worshiped Elistraee? So Lolth will still get upset for loosing a follower she had never had?
Eh, unless you are really changing the fluff of Drow, that community had to be formed at some point by exiles, self imposed and otherwise.
Llolth is merely visiting the 'sins' of the father on the son as it were.

[Solaris]

Yes...the CE ones. Please note that we're talking about good-aligned drow that aren't clone of Gary Stu over there.

I'm just saying, Drow woman in the kitchen, your players will NEVER see it coming. It's like finding a high elf that isn't racist.

I once played a high elf wizard who was pretty much singlehandedly responsible for about half of the half-elves in the kingdom, and it wasn't even him trying to improve the line (that was just an added bonus). Just sayin'.


So what happens if the Drow was born to a surface community that worshiped Elistraee? So Lolth will still get upset for loosing a follower she had never had?


Eh, unless you are really changing the fluff of Drow, that community had to be formed at some point by exiles, self imposed and otherwise.
Llolth is merely visiting the 'sins' of the father on the son as it were.

Wait, now we're expecting Llolth to be able to tell one puny drow from another?

[Ravens_cry]

It, now we're expecting Llolth to be able to tell one puny drow from another?
What says she can't?:smallconfused:

[Eigenclass]

So what happens if the Drow was born to a surface community that worshiped Elistraee? So Lolth will still get upset for loosing a follower she had never had?


Llolth is merely visiting the 'sins' of the father on the son as it were.


Truly. Lloth is seriously crazy - the sort of crazy you can't even get without having divine ranks. She would visit the sins of the father's second wife's uncle's dog groomer on the son.


It, now we're expecting Llolth to be able to tell one puny drow from another?

Lolth has 'Drow' in her portfolio. Per Portfolio Sense, Intermediate and above deities can sense pretty much anything involving their portfolio. It doesn't say anything about actually worshiping Lloth - you are a Drow, therefore, as a Greater Power she not only knows who you are, but where you'll be a week from now.

Even Lawful deities might agree that open hubris is probably not something you want to tolerate for very long. The Goddess of the Drow might actually get in trouble with Ao if she doesn't do something at some point.

[Morithias]

I once played a high elf wizard who was pretty much singlehandedly responsible for about half of the half-elves in the kingdom, and it wasn't even him trying to improve the line (that was just an added bonus). Just sayin'.


I probably should have put "joking" tags on that last line. Oh well.

[Twilightwyrm]

Well he's not supposed to be initially Chaotic Neutral, but I've always wanted to play a drow barbarian that was raised by lizard folk. I like the idea of playing with the nature vs. nurture question that surrounds how malicious drow are, by playing one that was raised by an almost diametrically opposed, but almost equally alien society.

[Golden Ladybug]

1. The player knows nothing about drow other then they are Coolz! They don't even know why they want to play a drow, other then they are Coolz to the awesomo extreme. Often this type of role-player does not even role play, but when they do, the 'good drow' is most often just the player being himself.

Yeah, that's fair enough. Someone I used to play with had this attitude for every non-human he played. It got aggravating at times, but it wasn't the worse thing in the world. Still, I wouldn't want people choosing to play Drow just to do that.


2.The player is a cheating, rule breaking and bending optimizer. He has some sort of wacky build and plan to be powerful, and needs to be a drow to pull it off. He will, try to keep this secret and just say he loves drow.

Probably not a thing anymore, as has been pointed out. Nothing Drow get is particularly amazing, and even the higher end stuff is gonna be outshined dramatically by something that isn't two levels behind.

Drow are one of my favourite races, but they aren't powerful, and their stat bonuses, decent SR and "meh" SLAs isn't worth 2 LA. Not by a long shot.


3.The player wants to take advantage of the evil side of the drow, by scaring foes, for example. Or getting free stuff. Getting everything they want by fear and intimidation. But, of course, at the exact same time they want none of the bad stuff to happen to them. So the guards won't attack the drow on sight or anything.

4.A classic is where the 'good' drow slips back into 'evil' and then tried to say ''oh, oops, just playing my character.'' They will burn down a school with kids inside, and then try to just say ''oh that was my evil dark side..I'm trying to control it''.

Yeah, that's going to have consequences in any sensible DM's game. You get what's coming to you; act evil, and you should expect to meet problems in the future as a result of that evil.

So, if you want to burn down Schools, make sure you're ready to dive into the deep end of the alignment pool and all that entails :smallsmile:


5.The player will try to have an elaborate 'good' backstory where they 'stepped on a special Lloth spider'' or something so that the whole of drow society is after them. Not that they want to be attack...except in the modern way of a 'mortal combat' type fight where they can be ready. Mostly they just want to be super cool for being ''the one drow'' who upset all the rest.

That's actually a thing, though :smallconfused:

Pissing off the Spider Queen would make your life very interesting. It would also make it end pretty damn quick. Lolth is absolutely insane!

When Lolth is happy with you, she sends you visions to make you kill your family, sets monsters on you, randomly covers you in swarms of monstrous spiders, turns off all your powers and turns you into random monsters. Failing any of those tests results in death or Driderhood. Every Single Drow has to do those sorts of things all the time, throughout their life.

If you did step on a "special Lolth spider", Lolth herself might decide to appear and kill you. Setting the entirety of Drow Society on you is entirely in character for her!

If one of my players came to me, asking to play a Drow who has spurned Lolth and is now on the run from every other Drow and all of Lolth's servants, I'd laugh maniacally, OK the character and drop the Level Adjustment besides.

[Solaris]

What says she can't?:smallconfused:

It was a joke.

[Leon]

Why be a good Drow when being a neutral one is better - less reaction for a start to the concept.

[Ravens_cry]

It was a joke.
It wasn't obvious to this one. I apparently was not the only 'this one'.

[Solaris]

It wasn't obvious to this one. I apparently was not the only 'this one'.

Thus my saying so, rather than expecting y'all to mystically divine my intent. It's hardly the first time my sense of humor failed to translate.

[Hiro]

Well... if you piss Lolth off and you TRULY mean to escape her..

Run to the nearest Temple of Elistraee...they're required by doctine to help you if you truly mean it.

Not even Lolth is insane enough to tangle with the entire Elven Pantheon...again. They buttraped her last time... (Elistraee is Corellon's little girl.. I don't see daddy turning a blind eye to mommy coming to beat her ass...)