The Sáigarron (3.5 Savage Progression. Please PEACH)

[Virdish]

Sáigarron
Dragon (Aquatic)

The products of an exesively rare mixing of draconic and Siren blood the Sáigarron is comfortable in both the water and the air though she often feels strange when she is tethered to the ground. They inherit a magical tendency from both sides and as such are uniquely adjusted to magical proffesions. With their ability to alter their own appearence they fit comfortably into many longer lived cultures. However their wild nature often leaves them feeling different on a fundamental level.

Appearence; In their natural form Sáigarron take on the scaley quality of their dragon parent though regardless of their dragon parents color they manifest green, or blue skin, a gift from their Siren parent. Some have a ridge of spikes running along their head akin to the crests of their draconic parents. Most however whether or not they have a crest grow hair like a human. All Sáigarron have wings that can either be used to fly once they have grown fully or which can be used to help them maneuver in the water. Sáigarron have three slits behind their ears that act as gills and allow them to breath underwater indeffinently. They are a naturally lithe race and thier eyes are always striking though they may take on many different colors.

Racial class
Sáigarron
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Ability boost,Energy resistance,Human form

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Ability boost, Breath weapon, AC+1, Deflection +2

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Charming song, Wings(glide), AC+1

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Ability boost, Wings(flight), [/table]

hit die; d10
skill points; 4+int mod
Class skills; Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge(Arcana), Knowledge(Nature), Profession, Perform, Sense motive, Spellcraft, Use Magical Device
weapon and armour proficincies; Sáigarron's are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armour, and shields (except tower shields)

True Adept: Saigarron levels stack with Dragonfire Adept levels for determining the strength of her breath weapon, her Caster Level, and the highest level Invocation she may use; she does not gain any other bonus, including Invocations Known, that levels in Dragonfire Adept would have given.

I'm THAT good; The Sáigarron is a creature of alien beauty and irresistible charm. Her personality is so strong that she casts magic not by studying it or by other processes most casters use. She instead draws the power from it's source using her force of personality, she may use charisma in place of her normal caster ability. She must make this choice upon taking her first level in a spellcasting class and this decision is permanent even if she takes levels in a different spellcasting class.

Ability scores; At 1st level the Sáigarron gains +2 cha, and -2 con. At 2nd level she gains +2 wis. At 3rd level she gains another +2 cha. All bonuses stack

Breath Weapon(Su); As the Dragonfire Adept class feature.

Wings (Ex); At 1st level a Sáigarron can use her wings to glide. If she becomes unconscious her wings instinctualy open and powerful ligaments stiffen. She falls in a tight corckscrew and takes 2d6 damage regardless of height. At 4th level the Sáigarron is finally able to use her wings to fly. She has a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability.

Natural Armour(Ex); At 2nd level the Sáigarron gains a +1 bonus to AC. At 3rd level she gains another +1. These bonuses stack

Deflection(Su); At 2nd level the Sáigarron gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC

Energy Resistance(Ex); At 1st level a Sáigarron gains elemental resistance in accordance with her dragon parent equal to 1/2 her character level+2

Charming Song(Sp); At 3rd level the Sáigarron can use the Charm person spell as a spell like ability a number of times a day equal to her cha modifier. Any creature in the range of her song must make a Will save (DC equal to 10+1/2HD+Cha modifer) or be subject to the songs effects.

Human Form(Sp); At 1st level a Sáigarron gains the ability to change her form to more closely resemble a humans at will. Her eyes will still remain vibrant and her skin will retain a slight green or blue tint noticable under close scrutiny. In human form the Sáigarron loses her ability to fly and use her breath weapon though she retains all other class features

[Virdish]

Post saved for something. Maybe racial feats

[Empedocles]

Alright, I'll talk about the fluff later. For now, I'm just going to do a mechanical evaluation. You need a table though. Look at the guides to homebrewing or just copy and paste from a base class competition if you don't know how to make one. As is (without said table) this class has no set number of levels (I'm assuming 4, since no abilities mention anything higher then that), no BAB, and no saves. I'm going to speak within the quote in bold.



hit die; d10
Cool. Not much to say here.

skill points; 6+int mod
That's a lot of skill points...but it has no skills. From what I'm getting, this isn't really a 6 skill point racial class though. That's usually a number reserved for rogues with special abilities (bard, for example). So yeah: needs a list of skills, and probably only 4 skill points.

weapon and armour proficincies; Sáigarron's are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armour, and shields (except tower shields)

Perfectly ok. :smallredface: However, with the natural armor the medium armor isn't really necessary.

Ability scores; At 1st level a Sáigarron gains the following ability score modifers Wis+2, Con-2, at level two they gain Str+2 and Cha+2. At 4th level they gain Str+2 and Cha+4. All bonuses stack

Whoa. Big boosts, and they're all over the place. Depending on what role you want the Saigarron to fill you need boosts to only 1 or 2 of the abilities. As is you have modifiers to everything except dexterity and intelligence, and you have ALOT of those modifiers. Too many, really.

Breath Weapon; At 2nd level a Sáigarron is able to use her vestigial glands to reproduce a breath weapon appropriate for her draconic side. Usable once per day

Ummm...what does the breath weapon do? Appropriate for her draconic side really only tells me if it's a cone or line, and what type of damage it does. 1d6 for every 2 HD is the recommended amount from me, but it could be more since it's only usable once per day.

Wings (Ex); At 3rd level a Sáigarron can use her wings to glide. If she becomes unconscious her wings instinctualy open and powerful ligaments stiffen. She falls in a tight corckscrew and takes 2d6 damage regardless of height. At 4th level the Sáigarron is finally able to use her wings to fly. She has a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability.

The wording is a little awkward, but it's a cool ability and quite neat how you added in the corkscrew thing. Nice work.

Natural Armour(Ex); At 2nd level the Sáigarron gains a +1 bonus to AC. At 3rd level she gains another +1. These bonuses stack

Coolio.

Deflection(Su); At 2nd level the Sáigarron gains a +2 deflection bonus to AC

Sweeeeet.

Energy Resistance(Ex); At 1st level a Sáigarron gains elemental resistance in accordance with her dragon parent equal to 1/2 her character level+2

I like this too.

Charming Song(Sp); At 3rd level the Sáigarron can use the Charming song as a spell like ability a number of times a day equal to her cha modifier

The charming song...? I assume you mean cast Charm as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to her charisma modifier. If that's what you meant, then you also need a save DC (10 + 1/2 HD + charisma modifier is suggested)

Human Form(Sp); At 1st level a Sáigarron gains the ability to change her form to more closely resemble a humans at will. Her eyes will still remain vibrant and her skin will retain a slight green or blue tint noticable under close scrutiny. In human form the Sáigarron loses her ability to fly and use her breath weapon though she retains all other class features

Cool. :smallbiggrin:

What you should start with though, is giving the Saigarron a definitive role in a party. Skilled, gish (magic-melee hybrid), melee, caster, support, etc. Then, make edits accordingly. As is this has no real role to fill in a party.

[Virdish]

Made most of the changes but I haven't messed with the ability modifiers yet. I was thinking of her as a Gish which is why I had originally thought of wisdom and strength but coming from a fluff standpoint Cha should be a strong ability for her. She has a kind of Alien beauty gained from her mother. You mentioned in your pm that with the direction I'm going with this I might take out the more combat oriented abilities. Perhaps I could drop the strength mod, drop the Nat AC and add the ability to use her Cha modifier in place of her classes normal spellcasting ability.

Edit; Currently trying to figure out a good class skill set for her. Definitely will have Perform(musician), and probably heal, diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive but other then that I am kinda stumped.

[Empedocles]

I'm not sure how I feel about the charisma based casting. It doesn't seem appropriate for certain classes, and doesn't benefit classes that already have charisma. Instead, how about an improvement to her spellcasting based on her charisma?

[Virdish]

What would you have in mind for that. I wouldn't know how to use that mechanically.

For the Charisma as casting ability I was thinking that she basically uses her force of personality to either gain divine or arcane spells, kind of pulling the magic from it's source

[Empedocles]

What would you have in mind for that. I wouldn't know how to use that mechanically.

For the Charisma as casting ability I was thinking that she basically uses her force of personality to either gain divine or arcane spells, kind of pulling the magic from it's source

That sort of works for a cleric, but thematically it doesn't fit, say, a paladin.

[Answerer]

While the "pulling from its source" thing doesn't fit a Paladin, Charisma-based casting fits far better than does Wisdom-based casting. Paladins are heroes and champions, about bravery and courage. Theirs is less a quiet faith, and more a adamant zeal for their alignment and/or deity. Charisma fits these qualities better than Wisdom.

Plus it mitigates some of the Paladin's very serious problems.

I like the mix of Dragon and Siren, that's pretty neat.

One level of gliding seems... silly. Raptoran can glide as a racial feature, that automatically upgrades to flight without having to take any particular class levels.

In general, the progression gives a pile of numbers, and little else. The ability score bonuses are large, but personally I don't find ability score bonuses of that size appropriate for PCs: they need real class features, plus it throws off some of the assumptions for various numbers.

[Virdish]

One level of gliding seems... silly. Raptoran can glide as a racial feature, that automatically upgrades to flight without having to take any particular class levels.

They get the ability to fly at 4th level.


In general, the progression gives a pile of numbers, and little else. The ability score bonuses are large, but personally I don't find ability score bonuses of that size appropriate for PCs: they need real class features, plus it throws off some of the assumptions for various numbers.

I am thinking about probably taking away the str mod and probably lowering the cha mod to a +4. Though They do get a number of class features. Breath weapon, Sirin's song (charm as a spell like ability usable a number of times equal to her cha mod.),Human form (At will). It's a four level class so I didn't want to pack too much into it.

As far as the Charisma based casting it really depends on how you think of a Paladin. If you think of her as a wise hero leading the way with her god's grace behind her then no your right it doesn't. However if you think of her as a hero who's mere presence inspires her allies and makes her enemies quake in awe then Charisma based casting would thematically fit. Though I do see your point about classes like the sorcerer who already have charisma based casting. Though they are already getting a boost from the Charisma bonus

With breath weapon other then the stacking damage from HD do you think I should allow it more times a day when she hits different HD like say 5,10,15,20 or something along those lines give her an extra use of it?

Edit: Changed the ability boosts. She no longer gets a str mod and her cha mod is reduced to +4. I kept the Wis mod mainly because the -2 con is a hit for any character so I wanted to give some incentive to take the con hit.

[Answerer]

They get the ability to fly at 4th level.
I'm well aware: that's why I said it was silly to have gliding for one level (level 3). It would make more sense to get gliding from level 1.


I am thinking about probably taking away the str mod and probably lowering the cha mod to a +4. Though They do get a number of class features. Breath weapon, Sirin's song (charm as a spell like ability usable a number of times equal to her cha mod.),Human form (At will). It's a four level class so I didn't want to pack too much into it.
The breath weapon is unclear to me; I'm not sure what "appropriate for her draconic side" is – I get that it is of the appropriate color, but what's the damage? Save DC? At any rate, the breath weapon is cool and is maybe level-appropriate, but the class is unclear about that.

There is no "Charm" spell; there's Charm Person and Charm Monster (and, maybe, a Charm Animal). Assuming you meant Charm Person, you'll get decent use out of it if you spend a lot of time in low-level humanoid cities, but it's going to pretty quickly become useless, and it doesn't do any good outside of such an urban setting. Charm Monster isn't an awful lot better... There's a reason that Enchantment gets banned more often than it doesn't.

Human form is only for appearances and costs you class features, so it's pretty much a null feature as far as balance is concerned. It's good to have, definitely, but it doesn't greatly impact "getting too much" or "not getting enough".

So all of that goes under the heading of "not much else". The character will use her breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds, and have not much else going on. While being 4 levels behind on whatever progression she ends up moving down.

[Virdish]

Relevant to her draconic parent is in regards to what type of damage and whether it is a line or cone. What else would you suggest for abilities? I basically based this off of the entries for half dragon and sirine. I'm really leaning towards the charisma based casting and I have no problem putting glide at level one. I guess with features I may have aimed too low. I'm not great with balance or crunch in general

[Answerer]

I should mention that this is probably about on par with other savage progressions; most of my criticisms simply also apply to WotC's work as well as yours. I don't think most of them are particularly well done.

I feel like the best thing this class can do is give some progression of its own, something that, say, PrCs (or possibly base classes) can advance so that you continue to maintain level-appropriate features. Much of 3.x is based around the idea of "progression" – spellcasting, psionics, martial maneuvers, etc., all of these subsystems have a progression, and even when you take other (prestige) classes, you're still making progress on your foundation abilities. Things that don't use any such subsystem are therefore "dead" from the perspective of your progression, and it's often basically impossible to make that worth it because it throws off the entire progression.

So you could give the Saigarron some spells of her own (which "+1 level of existing spellcasting class") could advance, perhaps. Probably similar to Bard progression. Or you could just say that Saigarron levels count as Bard levels for the sake of spellcasting; it seems reasonably appropriate anyway. The levels are a bit better than Bard is, probably, but not a lot better; you lose Inspire Courage, which is a big deal for the Bard. Having levels 2-4 count as Sorcerer levels might work too, if you prefer that.

You could get more creative with the Saigarron's abilities, of course, and then include a rule that says something like "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" counts towards this.

But mostly you want to establish some sort of progression that goes to 20, so a Saigarron 4 doesn't come out looking to multiclass into something that she could have/should have started at level 1.

[Virdish]

I was looking at the entry for Sirine and there are a number of spell like abilities listed. I was thinking about adding some there. As for caster progression I was thinking of her more as a gish then a true caster. I'm actually getting a lot of ideas now. I'm decided on the Charisma based casting, it fits the theme of this race and since I am primarily going to use it in my own campaign where I am doing a refluff/retool of most of the casters and gishes the charisma based casting will be less of a problem. I'm moving glide down to level one. I'm going to adjust the way their breath weapon scales with HD. When they first get it they will use it once per day then increase it at maybe 5HD to like twice per day and then go up to a number of times based on her cha or con modifier.

As far as progression can you tell me how this sounds for spellcasting

Naturally Magical; The Sáigarron is a creature born of magic and that magical blood carries over to any training she may have later in life. When figuring out CL she counts half of her racial hit die. At 15HD her innate magic is so in tune with her training that she now counts all of her racial HD towards CL.

This would give something back to her for missing out on the four levels at the beginning.

I'm THAT good; The Sáigarron is a creature of alien beauty and irresistible charm. Her personality is so strong that she casts magic not by studying it or by other processes most casters use. She instead draws the power from it's source using her force of personality, she may use charisma in place of her normal caster ability. She must make this choice upon taking her first level in a spellcasting class and this decision is permanent even if she takes levels in a different spellcasting class.

[Answerer]

The problem with tossing a wodge of SLAs on her is that you only have 4 levels in which to do it: either you give her way, way too much for a level 4 character, or they're all-but-meaningless by level 10.

As for the breath weapon, why are you nerfing it? I'd assumed it worked like dragon's breath weapons, i.e. once every 1d4 rounds. That's a fairly reasonable thing to have, and the existence of metabreath feats and the like make it something a character can actually work with. That was one of the best parts of the class.

The CL bonus is... not that good. One, CL alone isn't that useful. Two, losing 2 CL is still pretty meh, and most are probably still going to take Practiced Spellcaster (which gives +4 CL but cannot raise CL above your HD), so it doesn't actually help any.

Again, I really feel that she needs some progression of her own. A static set of SLAs isn't going to do it, a static bonus to anything isn't going to do it. She needs to hit level 5 and be able to do something that is appropriate for level 5, or at least appropriate to level 3 or 4; not something appropriate to level 1. Going Saigarron 4/Wizard 1 gets you 1st level spells with CL 3; a Wizard 5 has 3rd level spells with CL 5. Being four spellcasting levels behind is basically an impossible thing to make up.

Actually, what might be interesting is to crib from the Dragonfire Adept (Dragon Magic). If gave her a breath weapon "as a Dragonfire Adept of her Saigarraon level", and maybe something like "Saigarron levels stack with Dragonfire Adept levels for determining the strength of her breath weapon, her Caster Level, and the highest level Invocation she may use; she does not gain any other bonus, including Invocations Known, that levels in Dragonfire Adept would have given," then she's actually looking pretty solid. Then a Saigarron 4/Dragonfire Adept 1 has some ability bonuses, Natural Armor, flight, and the Charm ability, plus everything a Dragonfire Adept 5 would have except she only has 1 Invocation Known, and doesn't gain another for two levels, while the DfA has 2 plus a breath effect, and learns another Invocation next level.

[Virdish]

I actually like your idea except then why would a Sáigarron be anything else but a Dragonfire adept.

As for why I nerfed it I took it directly from the Half-Dragon template. I could see making it 1d4 rounds as it is the best ability this class gets.

[Answerer]

I actually like your idea except then why would a Sáigarron be anything else but a Dragonfire adept.
The Dragonfire Adept qualifies for spellcasting PrCs, though, so the Saigorran might take a level or two of DfA, but would mostly be looking to go into some thematically-appropriate PrCs: whichever is appropriate for that particular character. The advantage of choosing spellcasting here is that it qualifies you for a lot of PrCs, so it shouldn't be too hard to find something appropriate.

Plus gishing or theurging would be easy: take a level or three of whatever you need, and then take things like Eldritch Knight (gishing), Cerebremancer (psionics), Jade Phoenix Mage (martial maneuvers), Soulcaster (meldshaping), or what have you.

[Virdish]

What do you think about the class skill list?

[Answerer]

It's my strongly-held belief that every class ever (yes, even that one) should have Craft and Profession as class skills. Almost every class does, but every class should. They're mostly fluff anyway, which is why every class should have the option of taking them: if someone's going to self-nerf by taking those skills, they shouldn't be penalized for it.

And uh... it really should have Swim. I mean, the Saigarron is descended from a sea creature, and has the Aquatic subtype. I'm kind of guessing that was an oversight though.

Also, you cannot give "Perform (sing)" as a class skill. Just give Perform. It's OK, it's not going to break anything.

Otherwise... man, it should be in alphabetical order. Harder to keep track of what is and isn't on it. Knowledge (Arcana) seems appropriate. It's the skill for dragons and it's the skill for magic. Spot and/or Listen are also appropriate; after all, a Siren has to be aware of sailors to get. Having Bluff and Diplomacy, but not Intimidate, is a little odd, but also kind of makes sense (good at enticing, not so good at driving away).

The last thing is Use Magic Device, which is awesome and amazing. Just be aware that UMD is a very-powerful skill. I don't think it's gonna break the class by any means, but I imagine the vast majority of Saigarrons are going to get at least 7 ranks in it.


Re: DfA changes: they should probably be listed first (things like Spellcasting always seem to be), and also you probably don't need a separate entry for the breath weapon in this case. Or, if you want one to make it explicit that they get one, you should just say "as the Dragonfire Adept class feature."

[Virdish]

I didn't give them the swim skill since as an aquatic race she has a swim speed though I'll add it in for thematic reasons. I can see the other class skills as well and will add them in.