A couple of questions about undead.

[Kogak]

I have been poking around a campaign with a high volume of undead (as a necromancer, as the generic avatar may suggest), and consequently I have been looking at the various templates and spells a bit more than I might usually bother with. I tend to ramble a bit, if you'll bear with me.

First, an unrelated note I saw looking at the "lich" template that I was curious about. Reading the LM, I saw a feat "Corrupt Wildshape" or some such that allows undead druids to shape change (not normally allowed due to polymorph blah blah blah). The lich template states liches may continue to polymorph themselves. Would a druid lich (gestalt druid/wiz or whatever, the hows are not as important) get to shape change as I suspect, due to the specifics of the template? I know specific trumps general, but I have not run across this specific combination and wanted to check.

Second, I have been looking through various topics about Animate Dead and the question "why a 20 HD limit?" comes up a lot, to which I typically see "just because, talk to your DM about changing it". I have seen plenty of instances of "try using Create (Greater) Undead to break the HD limit" sorts of things, but the create undead spells do not grant direct control. Reading through the Book of Horrors & Spell Compendium I noticed the wording in "Plague of Undead". While most spells that appear to be a "bigger, meaner" version of a spell specify "...works like X except noted...", Plague of Undead does not. It only mentions Animate Dead as sharing the same control pool. The monster manual only states that skeletons/zombies cannot be create with more than 20 HD specifically with the Animate Dead spell. The MM implies in the "advancement" category of the zombies and the overall CR rating that the templates should never get beyond 20 HD, but at no point does it state the templates cannot be applied to higher HD critters. Would a level 9 spell with a few other bells and whistles (max HP and much less expensive components) get around this "only 20 HD with animate dead" limit?

Finally, the LM mentions a few variants for undead (skeletons and zombies specifically relevant to this post). How does a PC go about creating these variants? I have not seen any method using RAW, and some of them seem to be the equivalent of the corpse crafting feats (ex. fiery skeletons swaps the energy immunity to fire and adds 1d6 elemental damage, a feat will add 1d6 cold). I am guessing that the rules are simply not laid to paper, but I lack access to numerous sources (including the Dragon Magazine stuff) and was curious if there might be something out there.

Thanks in advance for any illumination the bigger kids in the playground can provide a 'lil necromancer.

[Wavelab]

I have been poking around a campaign with a high volume of undead (as a necromancer, as the generic avatar may suggest), and consequently I have been looking at the various templates and spells a bit more than I might usually bother with. I tend to ramble a bit, if you'll bear with me.

First, an unrelated note I saw looking at the "lich" template that I was curious about. Reading the LM, I saw a feat "Corrupt Wildshape" or some such that allows undead druids to shape change (not normally allowed due to polymorph blah blah blah). The lich template states liches may continue to polymorph themselves. Would a druid lich (gestalt druid/wiz or whatever, the hows are not as important) get to shape change as I suspect, due to the specifics of the template? I know specific trumps general, but I have not run across this specific combination and wanted to check.


Do you mean this:

Immunities (Ex)
Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.

If so then it just means that if you can polymorph(through the polymorph spell for example) then you may bypass this immunity. It does not grant the ability to wild shape or polymorph.


Second, I have been looking through various topics about Animate Dead and the question "why a 20 HD limit?" comes up a lot, to which I typically see "just because, talk to your DM about changing it". I have seen plenty of instances of "try using Create (Greater) Undead to break the HD limit" sorts of things, but the create undead spells do not grant direct control. Reading through the Book of Horrors & Spell Compendium I noticed the wording in "Plague of Undead". While most spells that appear to be a "bigger, meaner" version of a spell specify "...works like X except noted...", Plague of Undead does not. It only mentions Animate Dead as sharing the same control pool. The monster manual only states that skeletons/zombies cannot be create with more than 20 HD specifically with the Animate Dead spell. The MM implies in the "advancement" category of the zombies and the overall CR rating that the templates should never get beyond 20 HD, but at no point does it state the templates cannot be applied to higher HD critters. Would a level 9 spell with a few other bells and whistles (max HP and much less expensive components) get around this "only 20 HD with animate dead" limit?

The only spell I know of which doesn't have a HD limit for undead controlled is Animate Dread Warrior (http://dndtools.eu/spells/unapproachable-east--33/animate-dread-warrior--3468/) in Unapproachable East. A common tactic is to become undead and spellstitch yourself to get that spell as a spell like ability(so no experience cost).


Finally, the LM mentions a few variants for undead (skeletons and zombies specifically relevant to this post). How does a PC go about creating these variants? I have not seen any method using RAW, and some of them seem to be the equivalent of the corpse crafting feats (ex. fiery skeletons swaps the energy immunity to fire and adds 1d6 elemental damage, a feat will add 1d6 cold). I am guessing that the rules are simply not laid to paper, but I lack access to numerous sources (including the Dragon Magazine stuff) and was curious if there might be something out there.

Variants are generally made up by a DM or requested by a player to add a little variation to the game, they don't tend to have actual rules for it.


Thanks in advance for any illumination the bigger kids in the playground can provide a 'lil necromancer.

Vampires. Vampires make everything better. :smallbiggrin: