[PF] Encounter Design

[Scowling Dragon]

Ive always skimmed the encounter design but now returning to it in detail I find it weird:

Apparently an encounter of average toughness is much lower then the players.

So if my players are all level 5 and their combined XP value is 6,000 a encounter of average difficulty is about a fifth of theirs (1,600)?

And even at suggested "Epic" difficulty it only begins to come close to being near their equal value.

Whats up with this? Is equal opposition for players too hard or something?

[Keneth]

Equal opposition can easily result in a wipe or at least a number of character deaths which is problematic at lower levels and unwanted at higher levels.

A 5th level party (let's say 4 members), going against four 5th level opponents is an epic encounter (each CR 4, ergo EL 8).

Do note that our group constantly goes up against such encounters and comes out victorious, so it's not all about challenge rating. You have to take into account the opposing group's capabilities. Four fighters are gonna be a challenge but four wizards are likely gonna clean up the party in a matter of rounds even though both are the same encounter level.

[Scowling Dragon]

I mean, I get not equal opposition (Thats like a once in a while thing), but an average battle is at the fifth of power?

[PoisonAlchemist]

I suppose you could look at it this way: reasonably intelligent people don't step in over their head, and opt for jobs that have a minimal risk. That isn't to say things don't crop up that are overly challenging, it's just that most parties will shoot for challenges (cleaning out a kobold warren) that are slightly below their capabilities to manage the risk of death.

Additionally, encounters assume that there are several (five or more) per day. Battles deplete spells and potions leaving the group much weaker and more vulnerable to the next encounter.

[Keneth]

Yeh, I never really understood the reasoning behind this, but then again some people have 5+ battles per day, which I personally find equally ridiculous. Taking that into account, it kinda makes sense, but I still much prefer to have two epic or at max three hard encounters in an eventful day, rather than a constant struggle for survival. I get the feeling most people don't really do any actual roleplaying.

[Scowling Dragon]

Thing is Im running Dark Sun, and Im not going to make it a pushover like standard is.

There are no dungeons, just terrible monsters.

[awa]

then your either going to have one of the following lot of dead pcs, a lot of overpowered pc who are more powerful then their ecl suggests throwing off the whole cr system or the 15 minute work day.

and a standard setting is not necessarily a push over nor are single big monsters the only way to threaten pcs. ive had pcs fearing for their life against relatively weak foes because their were so many of them coming in waves not letting them rest or regain spells.

[Scowling Dragon]

A bunch of weak foes is even worse. They kill them in one shots.

[Golden Ladybug]

Oh, that just means those one-hit wonders need to play smart. Use tactics that don't require them to match the PCs swing for swing.

Pepper them with Crossbow Fire, supplemented by a Bard's Inspire Courage or similar abilities. A group of 12 or so 1HD Kobolds with Masterwork Crossbows and good positioning, using Traps, Poisons and the Terrain to hinder the PCs, with two 1HD Bards on opposite sides of the field providing them with IC, and some sort of Boss Monster (say, a 4HD Tripper Barbarian?) and suddenly that party of 5th Level Adventurers is in trouble.

It might not seem like it straight away, and even if the Crossbowmen only hit on Natural 20s, but that just means the Archers can Deadly Aim with impunity. It doesn't matter that they don't hit often, and only for a piddly 1d8+3 damage, but if its sustained and there is a relatively tough Boss Monster keeping the attention on himself, while those Crossbowmen are positioned so its really hard to get to them, and even to do that you need to bypass these bear traps, spikes, pit traps and a hail of Alchemist Fire.

Not to mention, every Crossbow bolt that hits you, you have to make a save against the meanest poison these bastards have access to. All of that adds up, and soon those 3rd level spells or 3d6 worth of Sneak Attack dice doesn't seem so overpowering anymore.

To make a bunch of low level characters scary, you need to play dirty :smallamused:

[Keneth]

I believe Tucker's Kobolds are indeed an appropriate analogy here. Using advanced strategy and dirty fighting is a valid method when using a large number of weaker enemies to challenge higher-level characters.

[awa]

it actually doesn't matter if the pcs can kill them in one shot provided two things are true they can hurt the pcs and they are numerous enough and or hard enough to hit that they cant be killed off before they get their turn. In fact for vast hordes of foes being killed in one shot is useful for the dm becuase he doesn't have to track their hp.