I need help with my build.

[inexorabletruth]

My wife gave me this as a Christmas present, and a friend was supposed to help me build it, but life got in the way, and here we are, 4 months later, and I'm still no closer to finishing him.

Thing is... I suck at build mechanics. I can build single class, core characters. I've never even built a PrC before. But I've always wanted to play this guy, and I'm about to start a mid-level campaign where he might fit in nicely.

Are there any generous souls out there willing to help a guy out?

If so, here are the build notes that someone from the Playground was kind enough to give my wife:
Ok, I have double checked prerequisites, and I'm fairly sure this is valid:

Remove 1 level of Bard and replace it with 1 level of Monk. This gets you wisdom to AC from Monk.

Add two flaws of your choice. This will give you enough bonus feats to add Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer, swap Monk AC to use charisma) and Extra Spell (Complete Arcane). For the latter, there's some debate about whether it can get a spell that's not on your class list, but this is an odd corner case that lets you skip that argument - Greater Magic Weapon is, in fact, on the Sublime Chord class list; Sublime Chord just happens to not give any 3rd level or lower spells known by default.

Add Harmonic Chorus (Spell Compendium) to spells known. In combination with Sonorous Hum, this will let you increase your caster level by 2 temporarily to compensate for the loss from Monk, so your GMW will still be +4.

Use the Music of Creation option from Eberron Campaign Setting page 34 to get Song of the Heart as a bonus feat in place of the Suggestion ability of Bardic Music. This frees up a feat slot to take another metamagic feat to satisfy Chain Spell's prerequisite.

That makes the modified build:
Race: Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic, needed to qualify for Practical Metamagic)
Classes: Monk 1/Bard 9/Sublime Chord 1(Complete Arcane)/Master of the Unseen Hand 4(Complete Warrior)
Feats:
(2 flaws)
Flaw bonus 1: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
Flaw bonus 2: Metamagic School Focus (Transmutation) (Complete Mage)
Human bonus: Extend Spell
Level 1: Chain Spell (Complete Arcane)
Level 3: Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) (Complete Arcane)
Level 6: Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer)
Bard 6 in place of Suggestion: Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Level 9: Practical Metamagic (Chain Spell) (Races of the Dragon)
Level 12: Arcane Thesis (Telekinesis) (Player's Handbook 2)
Level 15: Extra Spell (Greater Magic Weapon) (Complete Arcane)
Spells:
Telekinesis (duh)
Greater Magic Weapon
Sonorous Hum (Spell Compendium)
Harmonic Chorus (Spell Compendium)
Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium)
Magic items:
Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium)
Vest of Legends (Dungeon Master's Guide 2)
Memento Magica (5th level) (Magic Item Compendium)
Cloak of Charisma +6 (not necessary, but highly recommended)

You get 9 caster level from Bard, 1 from Sublime Chord, and 4 from Practiced Spellcaster for a total of 14 normally. Specifically for Telekinesis, you get another 4 from Master of the Unseen Hand and another 2 from Arcane Thesis for a total of 20.

Your Inspire Courage is at +2 from levels, boosted to +3 by the vest, and increased by 1 by each of Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, and the Badge of Valor (though using both of the latter two takes the swift actions from both of your first 2 rounds). This adds up to a total of +6.

Prepare for casting GMW by casting Sonorous Hum and then Harmoic Chorus targeting yourself. This boosts your caster level to 16 for 14 rounds. Cast Greater Magic Weapon with Chain Spell to give 17 daggers a +4 enhancement bonus all day. This takes a 5th level slot. You will need to do this at least twice if you want your maximum Telekinesis capacity to all have the bonus.

In combat, start Inspiring Courage and cast Telekinesis with Chain Spell (and Extend Spell, it's free thanks to Arcane Thesis) to wield up to 21 daggers simultaneously. This takes a 5th level slot and one use of Metamagic School Focus. You can do this 3 times per day, if you have enough slots (the Memento Magica will help with that, especially if you get multiples). The daggers have an attack bonus of 20 plus your charisma bonus plus their enhancement bonus (+4 from GMW) plus Inspire Courage, get 4 attacks each (with standard iterative penalties), and deal 1d4 plus enhancement plus Inspire Courage damage each. That's 21 daggers at +30 plus charisma attack bonus, full attacks (get Haste for even more attacks), and 1d4+10 damage. Optionally, cast Sonorous Hum first so you can do other things while your daggers attack, possibly even casting Telekinesis again for another set of daggers. With that, you could have 42 daggers going at once.

If you're worried about multiclassing XP penalties, I assure you that's not a concern here. Bard is your favored class and is therefore ignored, Sublime Chord and Master of the Unseen Hand are both prestige classes and don't count, and that leaves just Monk. There's nothing left for Monk to have a level gap with, so no XP penalty.

Regarding MAD vs SAD, this build gets charisma to AC, charisma and caster level to attacks with the Telekinesis-controlled daggers, and charisma-based casting (both Bard and Sublime Chord). All other ability scores are incidental luxuries. If you really wanted to you could pick Ruin Delver's Fortune (Spell Compendium) as one of your 4th level spells known to get charisma to saves too, though it's rather short duration. The immediate action casting time lets you get away with really waiting until you need it to cast it, but you'll run out of spell slots for it pretty quickly.

My head is spinning just looking at this. I don't even know what level he is in this build. :smalleek:

Here are the build requirements:

Lvl 12
32 point buy, plus 3 points for 4th, 8th, and 12th levels.
No penalties for multi-classing.


If possible, I'd like to be taught how to build this while we're building it, but I'll take it however I can get it. The campaign starts Tuesday, so I'm sweating bullets. If worse comes to worse, I'll just throw together a Lvl 12 Fighter or something and play, but this is the character I've always wanted to play.

[nedz]

I'm not sure that the Monk level is adding anything useful. Actually I am sure that it isn't, why do you need Cha to AC ? It also delays your Bard casting/music etc by 1 level and costs you 4x2 skill points.

I recommend reading one of the Bard handbooks, they contain example builds which are likely to be somewhat better thought out than this.

[inexorabletruth]

Tbh, idk. This was the recommended build for my character.

Perhaps I should explain the character concept:
He starts off as a very showy Bard... think Robin Hood (classic Errol Flynn or Douglas Fairbanks version) but as a Bard. A hearty laugh, pencil mustache, devilishly handsome, a rose for the lady, a dagger for the villain... the whole thing.

However he has an uncanny knack for controlling things with his mind (or however he does it, he can move objects around without physically touching them) like Kankuro from Naruto. He originally used this ability to control his own unmanned backup band while he danced to the jaunty tunes he played... because he's a show-off, but as an adventurer he learned he could turn that ability into something deadly by wielding knives with them. So now, he flings daggers through the air like a jedi while laughing and dancing the whole time. The dancing puts him in a constant spin that makes him almost impossible to flank.

Does the build not accomplish that? If so, can it accomplish that at lvl 12?

[OracleofSilence]

While Charisma to AC sounds nice, and is fairly nice, it is not strictly necessary. I would recommend dropping that and taking Snowflake Wardance instead of Ascetic Mage. This adds Cha to attack and damage, fits with the dancing swashbuckler feel, and is a great way to get the feel for a last ditch effort carried more by personality and will then skill with a blade.

If you want to be REALLY silly, take Iron Will via Otyguh Hole (special location) and Chaos Shuffle it into a Words of Creation feat for nearly double Inspire courage bonus on all attacks. so, you would get this.

+8 inspire courage, +cha mod to attack and damage with onehanded slashing weapons for a cost of one bardic music use, and telekinetic fun with 17+ daggers. (this should come out to about +14 to attack and damage assuming maxed cha with 18 as your base score).

If you can find another feat to loose, take Dragonfire Inspiration, for a +8d6 damage to each attack in exchange for your inspire courage bonus (good for low AC bruisers). Dunno which feat to get ride of though

Recommended Levels:

Bard 8/Sublime Chord 2/ Master of the Unseen Hand 2 (later level are +2 Master of the Unseen Hand, +6 Sublime Chord

Reasoning: Inspire Greatness is not all that necessary, and more higher level spells is a very good thing (also, song of Arcane power will further boost your caster level for telekinesis shenanigans)

[nedz]

There is actually another problem with your build.

Monk: Must be Lawful
Bard: Cannot be Lawful

[OracleofSilence]

All the more reason to dump it like a... poorly thought out metaphor for wasted class levels. So I am still trying to find a way to get a way around flanking, ut i cannot find anything worth loosing fr that. Any idea's?

[Soranar]

Here's a really simple fix

instead of monk, take a level of Battledancer (found in Dragon Compendium which is considered WOTC material)

It's a full BAB class
adds your CHA to AC like a monk adds Wis to AC
It's based off dancing and , fluffwise, it works a lot better with bard than a monk
You still get improved unarmed strike from it

also saves you a feat which you can spend on something else

[OracleofSilence]

Eh, i still say that more spells is better in Cha to AC, but if you feel it necessary, battle dancer is definitely a fun way to do it.

[Randomguy]

Eyes in the back of your head is a feat in complete warrior that makes you unflankable, but rogues can still sneak attack you while they're flanking and it doesn't particularly fit the fluff.

Something that would fit the fluff is improved uncanny dodge, but that's a class feature that bards don't have.

You could get a ring of telekinesis to throw daggers and knives around so that you don't need to use spell slots for it and so that you can still fight even after you run out of spell slots.

[Keld Denar]

Words of Creation is an [Exalted] feat. In order to have it and keep it, you have to be gooder than good. The character you are describing sounds very scoundrely, like Han Solo. It's hard to keep yourself up to Choirboy standards while trying to make your enemies dance to your tune and steal kisses from the ladies.

I don't think MotUH really adds a lot, synergistically, to your build. It doesn't progress casting at all, and Sublime Chord at 11 is only going to have enough spell slots to cast TK a couple times per day. You'd probably be better off keeping more Sublime Chord levels, or better, PrCing into something that also progresses casting, like Virtuoso or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veils or Archmage or even Loremaster.

[nedz]

Lets look at the basics here:

You want to get into this PrC from Bard:

Master of the Unseen Hand (CWar p60)
PreReqs:
Concentrate: 8 ranks.
Able to cast Telekinesis as a spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability.

And you are trying to do this via the followig PrC

Sublime Chord (CArc p60)
PreReqs:
Know (arcana): 13 ranks, Listen: 13 ranks, Perform (any one): 10 ranks, Profession (astrologer): 6 ranks, Spellcraft: 6 ranks.
Class Ability: Bardic Music.
Able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells.

Noe for the skills you must have 10 levels in order to get the 13 ranks, but you only need 7 levels of Bard for 3rd level Arcane spells, so that gives you 3 levels to play with for something else.

So what class(es) could you spend those 3 levels on, which fit your concept better than bard ?

Oh and you need 1 level of SC to qualify for MotUH

[Randomguy]

Another possible way to get telekinesis on your spell list is by taking levels of Lyric Thaumaterge, a prestige class that gets to add spells from the sorcerer/wizard list to theirs.

Sadly, you only get a 5th level spell at 15th level even if you get into the class as soon as you can, so you couldn't get telekinesis until then, but you could still get Animate Weapon (from complete mage), to get weapons to fight for you, and Steeldance (from spell compedium) that makes 2 swords float near you and attack everyone that comes near.

Another way to be a bard-like character that's capable of fighting using telekinetic weapons is to start off with a level of human paragon, from unearthed arcana. This will let you put Preform (one instrument of your choice) to your class list for all future classes that you take.
Then, you can go into the Battle Sorcerer variant. It reduces your spells known, but it gives you a medium base attack bonus. If you'd rather fight with magic exclusively, don't take the variant.
With a decent intelligence you should be able to get some of the skill points you want. At level 7, you can prestige into Virtuoso (a prestige class from complete adventurer), which is basically like a bard, but with less melee capability.
In this case, your build would be: Human Paragon 1/Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 2/Sorcerer 3/Virtuoso 5.
At level 12, you only just got your 5th level spells (since you miss out on 2 caster levels), which would be telekinesis. From here you can take more levels in Virtuoso or go into master of the unseen hand.

[inexorabletruth]

Um... so it can't be done within 12 levels?

[OracleofSilence]

It can be started and put well on its way with twelve levels. You can get everything but the telekinesis by that point with magic. if you wanted to use psionics, this would be much easier (there is literally a power for that throwing weapons around), but there is no Psionic bard, so that is not even an issue.

Basically, you will need to wait a little bit one way or the other if you want bard (which is kinda what the build is about)

[Keld Denar]

It's somewhat possible, just not how you want it.

Another couple spells that do what you want are Cloud of Knives and Whirling Blade, in PHBII and Spell Compendium respectively. Cloud of Knives is 2nd level, and gives you the whole "surrounded by floating daggers" feel that you were looking for, but much lower level (and thus more times per day). It's not as versatile or powerful as Telekinesis, but it still feels similar for the most part. Whirling Blade is just an awesome way to throw a dagger. It flies 60' with no penalty, cuts through multiple foes, and doesn't even accidentally hit allies. It's the ultimate trick shot.

You can get Cloud of Knives on your class list via Lyric Thamateurge, and Whirling Blade is already a Bard spell.

[nedz]

Um... so it can't be done within 12 levels?

No
Bard 10/SC 1/MoUH 1 will do it, as will Bard 7/ X 3/SC 1/MoUH 1
Bard 1/Sorceror 8/ MoUH 1 will do it in 10, but it is less bardy.

[inexorabletruth]

I just looked at Cloud of Knives. It looks like a dumbed down version of what I eventually want, which is fine. I have a whole plan for this guy from birth to death, so catching him at this level is just catching him at an earlier chapter in his life. I will eventually want to be able to control multiple daggers though, so as long as that becomes an option at later levels, it's a winner.

So... what do?

First of all, how do I use Point Buy? Is there a resource I should be reading on that? I've only ever rolled scores or used an array before now.

Second, how does the level and feat progression come together for this build?

Third, where do I find Lyric Thaumatetris... thingumy? :smallconfused:

[GhostwheelZ]

Here's (http://www.dndwiki.com/wiki/Sublime_Singer_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)) an easy-to-follow build for the classic full-caster bard with a side helping of dragonfire inspiration. Hope that helps!

Edit: If you want the melee version of that, this (http://www.dndwiki.com/wiki/Bladesinger_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)) may be what you're looking for.

[Randomguy]

Lyric Thaumaterge is a prestige class found in the book called Complete Mage.

The rules for point buy are found on page 169 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

[Golden Ladybug]

Well, one way to do be a Bard Master of the Unseen Hand is to...well, die.

The second level of the Ghost Savage Species Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) can grant Telekinesis (CL12 or Ghost's HD, whichever is higher) as a Supernatural Ability, usable as a standard action once every 1d4 rounds. It also grants +2 Charisma, a Fly Speed of 30ft (Perfect), the Undead type and the ability to manifest on the material plane as an Incorporeal Creature.

Since you're solid on the Etheral, you can buy a Plane Shift to the Material plane and remain solid there, so there there isn't even that drawback.

So yeah, its pretty cheesy, but it gets you into MotUH before 12th level.

[inexorabletruth]

LMAO, Golden Ladybug. I think that's going a bit too far. Though I like the idea of him dying and becoming a ghost later.

I withdrew my interest from the Lvl 12 campaign, so I've got more time to learn how to build something like this. It looks like I have a lot more to learn in order to be ready for a gestalt character like this, considering I've never built anything that wasn't a single class, core race/class combo at level 10 or below.

When I build him, it will be glorious though.

[ILM]

Personally, I'd do what nedz suggested: Bard 7/ [anything 3]/ Sublime Chord 1/ MotUH 5 then go back to Sublime Chord or whatever.
Those 3 'free' levels are in due to the prerequisites on Sublime Chord, but since Telekinesis is a level 5 spells you'll never get in MotUH before level 10 anyway. You could do a Wizard 9/MotUH 3 and get full-attack telekinesis by level 12, but you're kinda losing the bard flavour here. So yeah, you won't go into MotHU before level 12, but you can make do with other telekinesis-themed spells available to bards until then.

For the 3 levels, you can, for instance, take 1 or 2 bard levels to upgrade your music (inspire courage +2 is especially handy), and fill in with really whatever strikes your fancy. Fighter or Ranger, if you want more Robin Hood and better ability with a bow (BAB and feats, basically). Human Paragon, if you're sort of on the fence about what to do. Whatever, really.

[inexorabletruth]

Mkay...

Thanks, ILM. I was kind of thinking that as well. Perhaps I could take that rogue dip to get Uncanny Dodge. It would require 4 levels to get there, but it's more fluffy than taking a Barbarian dip. He's too much of a city boy to be a Barbie, and those are the only two classes I can think of that get it.

[nedz]

I once played a 3.0 Bard, and I dipped Rogue 2 for evasion.

I'm not sure it was a good call, evasion is good but levels of spellcasting/music are probably better. (It was a very low wealth game so a ring of evasion wasn't an option - which is a pity really, because that would have been a much better deal)

[Randomguy]

Mkay...

Thanks, ILM. I was kind of thinking that as well. Perhaps I could take that rogue dip to get Uncanny Dodge. It would require 4 levels to get there, but it's more fluffy than taking a Barbarian dip. He's too much of a city boy to be a Barbie, and those are the only two classes I can think of that get it.

Warblade? 6 levels get you improved uncanny dodge. I think rogue would better thematically though.

Wait, this is a gestalt character? That would make it much easier build.

[inexorabletruth]

How would he get the ability to be hard to flank then?

The idea is that he dances while he fights, because he's flashy and a bit of a show off. To him, all the world is a stage and he enjoys performing for the audience. But I thought rather than just saying "he dances around while his daggers do the killing" which sounds kind of silly, I thought I'd make the dancing part of his combat strategy, like how drunken fist martial artists use misdirection to confuse their enemies. By spinning and dancing like a top, he can a) easily keep an eye on what's going on around him and b) be confusing as heck to try to attack and defend against.

[inexorabletruth]

Warblade? 6 levels get you improved uncanny dodge. I think rogue would better thematically though.

Wait, this is a gestalt character? That would make it much easier build.

You ninja'd me. :smallamused:

It's what it needs to be. I just want the character to work, no matter how many classes or levels are required. I'll eventually find a campaign he can play in, so it can't be some homebrewed mumbo jumbo. He has to be by RAW.

[nedz]

What ?

You are going to be dancing around in combat ? You might want to think about this. Even with spells like Blur and Blink you are going to get chopped up fairly quickly. Unless you build a melle orientated Bard, you are going to want to stand around at the back and buff everyone else.

I found that my standard combat sequence was Haste, Music, and then maybe something else. This is pretty typical for Bards, you hang out at the back and hide.

[Randomguy]

What ?

You are going to be dancing around in combat ? You might want to think about this. Even with spells like Blur and Blink you are going to get chopped up fairly quickly. Unless you build a melle orientated Bard, you are going to want to stand around at the back and buff everyone else.

I found that my standard combat sequence was Haste, Music, and then maybe something else. This is pretty typical for Bards, you hang out at the back and hide.

I don't think the character needs to be literally making preform (dance) checks in combat. It's just the fluff for uncanny dodge.

[inexorabletruth]

Randomguy is right. That's how I'm fluffing it. I mean Shadowdancers dance while they fight, which is just the fluff behind their Uncanny Dodge... or at least that's how I always interpreted it.

Hm... would it be doable to take an extra level in Bard and then 2 levels of Shadowdancer? That would give me Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, and fit the fluff.

That's Bard 8, Shadowdancer 2, Sublime Chord 1, Master of the Unseen Hand 5.

It's a messy, tangled build, but since they're all PrCs I wouldn't have to take an XP penalty when leveling up, right?

[nedz]

You would miss out on Inspire Greatness, and quite a few spellcasting levels, but it seems to give you what you are looking for.

You just need some feats now.

[Keld Denar]

PrCs never incur an XP penalty. Only base classes.

[kulosle]

The is heartfire fanner from Dragon magazine (don't know the number) basically turns any sorcerer into a bard. This way you could get into MotUH sooner. Or there is prestigious bard, coupled with kobold shenanigans to prevent lose of caster levels.

[inexorabletruth]

@ kulosle- Nope... Kobolds are out. He's supposed to be as handsome as he is charming.

The archetypal dashing, self-worshipping, hero. You know, the kind that stands triumphantly after winning... anything... with his hands on his hips and laughs like this, "haHAA!"

@ Keld Denar- Groovy :smallcool:

@ nedz- What kind of feats would you recommend?

[Golden Ladybug]

Heartfire Fanner is pretty bamf. I'm fairly certain you'll find it in Dragon #314

It requires 1st Level Arcane Casting, two crappy feats to get in (Negotiator and Skill Focus: Perform) as well as 10 Ranks each in Perform and Diplomacy, but for only one level it gives you a level of Spellcasting and gives you the Bardic Music abilities of a 5th Level Bard if you haven't got any Bard Levels. Besides that, it gives you an absolutely ridiculous Music called Inspired Fight, which lets you grant Fighter Feats to your allies, depending on your level. You get to give it to another one for every three character levels you have.

So yeah, it pretty good.

[nedz]

Well you need to prioritise on your build's requirements. Two of your PrCs have no feat requirements; but Shadowdancer required Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Reflexes. This is quite a high feat tax ?

Practiced Spellcaster seems a given since that boosts your CL by 4 ultimately.

For the rest, they split into what will be useful before you get your schtick, and what will boost it later.

Other feats:
If you take Shadowdancer then you have the pre-reqs for lots of combat type feats from the feat tax. I'm not sure that they are necesarily useful.

There are a number of feats which can boost your Bardic Music, if thats important ?

And then there are Metamagics.
Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell and Repeat Spell all seem to work with your Schtick. Quicken too perhaps, though you might not have the spell slots for this ? How do you intend to use your tp ?

[inexorabletruth]

What's tp? Besides toilet paper... :smallconfused:

[nedz]

What's tp? Besides toilet paper... :smallconfused:

Ooops I meant to type tk - telekinesis. (tp would be telepathy):smallredface:

[inexorabletruth]

The telekinesis is for controlling multiple daggers, kind of like in the film adaptation of The Shadow, when the Phurba attacks Cranston... except the knives don't talk. I can just wield them telekinetically. The more knives I can wield, obviously, the better. But I don't have to get ridiculous about it. It's more important that I have precision over power, because I want to also be able to use this telekinetic ability to pluck strings on a lute or harp and play a drum... stuff like that. That's how he performs.

[nedz]

Did I mention the Darkstalker feat ?
Only good if you are also being stealthy, but priceless if you are.

[inexorabletruth]

What source?

[nedz]

Lords of Madness

[inexorabletruth]

I might want that at later levels. After his larynx (and his ego) is badly damaged in a lucky shot, he becomes a lot more reserved and eventually more assassin-like. The music side of him dies, as does his flare for the dramatic and he becomes a cold, precise, blade for hire.

At mid-levels, though, he's the type of player that would monolog before the battle. I don't see him stalking anything, really.

He needs to be aggravatingly hard to hit, great at controlling knives magically, and good at performing music while dancing, but that's really more on the entertaining side of him, rather than battle crunch.

Incidentally, I found a dagger that I think is absolutely awesome:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/outsider_fools_18.jpg

It's from Dragonlance- Bestiary of Krynn. The little guy is technically a creature, not a dagger, but for all intents and purposes, it functions like a dagger that can also deal up to 4 points of CON damage per day. And they can be bred to produce more daggers. :belkar:

They're an evil species, but loyal to their wielder. My character is supposed to be narcissistic enough to be doing heroic things for the glory, not for the greater good, so I'm playing him CN, so there shouldn't be an alignment penalty flag raised by it. I think I'd need the Leadership Feat to wield him since he counts as a Cohort, but they tend to disguise themselves as masterwork daggers in order to be picked up, which implies that I only couldn't use Feeder to it's fullest extent without the Leadership Feat. Thoughts?

[inexorabletruth]

I just realized I'm building a Swashbuckler the hard way. Shows you how often I look at PHB II. :smallsigh: