PF Druids- Wildshape- What's the Point?

[NeoSeraphi]

So, I'm looking at the PF Wild Shape. I knew it was pretty nerfed, but this is just terrible. For one thing, it's already a spell. A spell that maguses, sorcerers, and wizards get (and alchemists get it as an infusion). Heck, even clerics get it with the right domain. The duration still lasts for 1 hour per level, but for that duration, you are incapable of casting spells with verbal components.

Meanwhile, a magus or a cleric who casts this spell gets to keep his spellcasting, as well as get quite a large duration (1 min per level). The spell is otherwise the same, so...yeah. What's the point of this ability again?

When practically every other spellcaster receives the exact same ability, but with access to spellcasting, why does the druid even have it? Why not just give them the spell, and make it a druid-only spell? It's not special or unique at all anymore! And giving it to them at-will hardly makes it any better, with how often a sorcerer can cast a 5th level spell per day at level 20. It's just...terrible.

What do you guys think? How do you use Wild Shaping druids in Pathfinder? I mean, why would you even play a druid instead of a cleric with the Animal and Fur Domains? (Nerfed companion, but better Wild Shape).

[Gavinfoxx]

Read this

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcNyxDTKvAmqZGRtZzhzdjZfNDBnM3d6OHRjNg&hl=en

That will help.

Also, look at these 3.PF druid and her companion I made.

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=17526

http://www.dndsheets.net/view.php?id=17556

[NeoSeraphi]

Where does it say that a non-druid loses the ability to cast when under the effects of beast shape I? Certainly not in the beast shape spell description.

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh, the fact that you can't speak and don't have hands? Also, the existence of the Natural Spell feat?

[NeoSeraphi]

Uh, the fact that you can't speak and don't have hands? Also, the existence of the Natural Spell feat?

The beast shape spell description does not say you lose the ability to speak, anywhere. That is part of the Wild Shape description alone. The Natural Spell feat only applies to Wild Shape. The way I see it, RAW, it only lets the druid keep up with the sor/wiz, not surpass it.

Here, to prove my point:

At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

See? If this restriction were to apply to all casters rather than just the druid, why wouldn't Paizo put it in the spell description, rather than the Wild Shape class feature with the emphasis that it is different than how the beast shape spell works?

[eggs]

Polymorph Subschool:
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon."

[NeoSeraphi]

Polymorph Subschool:
"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon."

There we go. That's the information I was missing. Okay then. I guess Wild Shape isn't so bad, though it sucks that everyone else still gets it around the same level that you do.

[Benly]

There we go. That's the information I was missing. Okay then. I guess Wild Shape isn't so bad, though it sucks that everyone else still gets it around the same level that you do.

On the other hand, the druid gets it as a bonus on top of his full allotment of spells, and it's a fair sight better than the SLAs most other full casters get as bonuses in the same vein. It's not nearly as potent as it was in 3.5, but Wild Shape is still a pretty solid secondary ability.

[Chained Birds]

There we go. That's the information I was missing. Okay then. I guess Wild Shape isn't so bad, though it sucks that everyone else still gets it around the same level that you do.

Staying as a Bear for the whole day of adventuring is a major perk for some people. Being able to rain death from the skies in the form of your choice while others have to maintain the form without casting, because only druids have access to the Natural Spell feat, is the major thing (Or if there are others that gain the specific Wildshape ability and thus can pick up Natural Spell).

That's where a druid wins and everyone else is failing to imitate the druid.

Wizard (In Tiger Form)= "Rarr!"
Magus (In Hawk Form) = "Kaww!"
Cleric (In Shark Form) = "Glubb!"
Druid (In Bear Form) = "I call upon the earth and skies to deliver judgment upon these heathens."

[Blisstake]

There we go. That's the information I was missing. Okay then. I guess Wild Shape isn't so bad, though it sucks that everyone else still gets it around the same level that you do.

Druids still get it a level early (they can use a third level spell equivalent at level 4 instead of 5). Combined with the fact that they don't have to waste spell slots on it, the extended duration, and their access to the Natural Spell feat, it's a much better ability on them than on other spellcasters.

[NeoSeraphi]

Staying as a Bear for the whole day of adventuring is a major perk for some people. Being able to rain death from the skies in the form of your choice while others have to maintain the form without casting, because only druids have access to the Natural Spell feat, is the major thing (Or if there are others that gain the specific Wildshape ability and thus can pick up Natural Spell).

That's where a druid wins and everyone else is failing to imitate the druid.

Wizard (In Tiger Form)= "Rarr!"
Magus (In Hawk Form) = "Kaww!"
Cleric (In Shark Form) = "Glubb!"
Druid (In Bear Form) = "I call upon the earth and skies to deliver judgment upon these heathens."

Yeah, but I find the druid spell list to be...lackluster. Especially in PF, without all the sweet supplements that 3.5 had (Druids got significant boons in Frostburn and the Spell Compendium).

I guess I'll just go with a transmuter. Less BAB and HD, but more forms and you don't have to waste a feat to cast spells in half of them (undead, monstrous humanoid, dragon, giant, etc).

[Laniius]

Don't discount the hour per level duration, meaning choose a good all-round form and you save spell slots as is it a class feature. At level 8 you can be in wild shape 24 hours per day. (3 changes, 8 hours each).

Also, don't discount the free half-fighter you get. Animal companions can get terrifying, especially because they gain feats and stat boosts with their HD as well as what they get as animal companions.

And the ability to spontaneously cast Summon Nature's Ally.

The wizard does get access to arguably more spells, but the druid gets access to their entire spell list. Without paying for them.

Finally, better HD and BAB are nice, as is the ability to wear medium armor and not suffer from ASF, after you gain access to ironwood you can wear as good armor as the cleric.

[Blisstake]

Yeah, but I find the druid spell list to be...lackluster. Especially in PF, without all the sweet supplements that 3.5 had (Druids got significant boons in Frostburn and the Spell Compendium).

Well, it goes the other way, too. I found them unbearably powerful with all the options available to them, especially when they could get the animal companions that were better than fighters on their own :smallsigh:

[Keneth]

You can fly around all day with perfect maneuverability and fling around spells even with no mouth or limbs, I'd say that's a pretty sweet deal. It's no longer an automatic win button that allows you to meta-dump all physical stats at character creation and seeing how druids are still at the very top of the tier list that is a good thing.