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SamBurke

2012-04-16, 12:49 AM

Immersion

http://artsonearth.com/www/images/uploads/blogger/_Xb5mh5BjcAo/SLFgA_fuzfI/AAAAAAAAA7I/ZnrhNFvD45I/s1600/Deepest-Lakes-Earth-1.jpg

COMMENTARY:
So, let's talk for a bit. There's a huge problem involved with roleplay, and, especially, the beginning of it: teaching the game. It took me weeks of studying the SRD to understand what was really going on with the game I was playing, and that was fast compared to my failures at other systems. I'm sure no one else has that problem.

What makes sense, though, to start with? After a bit of analysis, I figured you should start with whatever's important. If your game is an exercise of the mind and builds, then, by all means, start with rules and such. But if, on the other hand, your game is about characters, story, or a world, then I think that just doesn't cut it. The way to start is to start with the narrative.

This has a few added benefits: first, new players are automatically hooked. We all love stories, so, it makes sense that a player will pay attention when, instead of being told numbers, they are told that they're being attacked.

Secondly, it will allow the teaching process to be more organic. This is beneficial because it gives better comprehension and, as the title would suggest, more immersion in the game.

In discussing Welkanair's new game, Fourth Land, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234259) I realized that using his "Progressive Start" Idea would do precisely what I've outlined above. So, without any knowledge of how his idea actually works mechanically, I'll try to give the principle a go for Pathfinder.

Principle
COMMENTARY:
Let's start by discussing the basic idea behind the system: how you describe your character should be how your character is, and your description is the easiest way to build said character. Conform the classes to your character, rather than your character to the classes.

So, your character is defined by a list of words: perhaps twenty, perhaps thirty. As one commentator said, the alternate title here could be: "Yo, DM, I heard you liked adjectives."

Here's the kicker of the system, the main way of gaining XP: not by killing stuff. At least, not necessarily. You gain XP by doing things, not killing things. Here's why: in real life, you're more likely to gain deep insight into life from talking to people, or perhaps contemplation, or even just looking at art. It makes sense, then, that if these things would trigger a character, then, they would give them XP.

Each of those twenty or thirty adjectives, then, describes the character: and, potentially, can give them XP. Any time a player plays his character in character, he is rewarded. This is important, because it will force all players to adhere to their basic personalities. In other words, if a character has "Honorable" as part of their Morality Keywords, then, whenever they perform an honorable action, they get XP (Equal to their "class level," something which will be discussed later).

Character Advancement
Experience. Experience Points. If there is anything, anything, that more ruins the immersion, it's XP. Besides the fact it doesn't get given at times that make sense (as discussed above), nor in ways that make sense, it just plain doesn't display character development.

So, let's rework XP for a bit. Experience is given at opportune moments: either plot twists, plot revelations, or other important arcs, OR, character advancement, as mentioned above. XP is also going to be divided by 50. Why? Because just adding tons of points just complicates things unnecessarily, and the only reason for it is to emphasize numbers over characters, we'll just cut things down. Each time you get an XP award, it is merely your "class level."

But how do we define class level in a system which is classless? Well, every story has ups and downs, arcs and chapters. Each time there is one of these, the "class level" of the entire party goes up, as a way of defining how close they are not only to the end, but how far they are in development as characters and people.

Character Creation

So, let's say you're introducing a new player to Pathfinder (or, at least, this hacked up version of it). Let's start, then, with a blank. A nothing.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9GTxNKjT1z0/SR358OWfxHI/AAAAAAAAABk/SAtd08z2zts/s400/FILE0019.JPG

That's how you start the game. A blank piece of paper. No character sheet needed.

Attributes
Personally, I think the best way to create a character is to ask a player what they want to play. Have them describe who their character is, what he does, what he wants to do.

Now let's make a list of a few words that might describe someone, and look at them a little.

Constitution
Sickly
Fragile
Weak
Average
Sturdy
Buff
Tough
Juggernaut

Say that the character the new player imagined was a powerful warrior, capable of dealing blows. They'd probably choose somewhere around the buff level. Now, let's reveal to them what those words mean in mechanical terms:

Constitution:
{table=head] Description | Points | Attribute Score
Sickly | -3 | 4
Fragile | -2 | 6
Wimpy |-1 | 8
Average | 0 | 10
Sturdy | 1 | 12
Buff | 2 | 14
Tough | 3 | 16
Juggernaut | 5 | 18
[/table]

So, now, in the natural description of their character, they've already got their first character attribute! Fantastic! But what about the rest?

Well I'm glad you asked. Let's make a few more lists to examine the rest of the physical attributes.

{table=head] Strength
Disabled
Anemic
Weak
Average
Well-built
Strong
Muscular
Olympic
[/table]

Re-examining this tough character with your player, ask about this last table: they're probably going to look up toward the top of the table again: Olympic sounds good. Revealing the mechanics is easy, as well.

{table=head] Description | Points | Attribute Score
Disabled | -3 | 4
Anemic | -2 | 6
Weak | -1 | 8
Average | 0 | 10
Well-built | 1 | 12
Strong | 2 | 14
Muscular | 3 | 16
Olympic | 4 | 18
[/table]

So your new player is already getting a handle on the system: his buff Olympic guy has an 18 in this Strength stat, and a 14 in that Constitution one. What about how fast he moves and stuff like that? Well, just ask him to describe it! Simple as that.

Dexterity
Crippled
Clumsy
Slow
Average
Quick
Speedy
Lighting
Precognizant

Well, this new character isn't absolutely the best, but being in the wars did get him going pretty good... let's call him quick, then.

So, step back for a moment: this quick, buff, Olympian soldier is a pretty cool sounding character already. Besides that, he has half of his attributes set, and that just took a short description of him. Of course, all veteran DMs are asking the question now: how on earth is this balanced? Well, now's the time to talk to your players and get them on the same playing field: everyone has strengths and weaknesses.

Perhaps you've been wondering about those the point column for each of the attributes so far: what are those for? Each character gets 5 points, which works out to roughly 15-18 for PF's point buy system (here (http://tools.digitalightbulb.com/pbcalc.html)), within the range of normal to high fantasy. More points can be given if needed.

Let's ask your player what he wants, now: he's got a quick, buff, olympic character. What about, say, this guy's brains?

{table=head] Intelligence
Slow
Dumb
Dull
Average
Bright
Smart
Brilliant
Genius
[/Table]

Well, here we have to start making some choices... he can be a generally average fellow, but, we've already used up a good deal of points. 5 on strength, 2 on Constitution, 1 on Dexterity... That means he's three points over where he needs to be. However, that's ok, because the character really isn't based on being a genius, so he's just average. Well, what about his sagacity? Can that be dropped a bit? Well, by now, your player knows the drill. To the list!

{table=head] Wisdom.
Dim
Rash
Impulsive
Average
Rational
Shrewd
Wise
Sage
[/table]

Again, think about which he is, and then examine the score. Hm... Rash seems pretty good for a warrior. Fearless, brave, courageous.

As I'm sure we know, he's got a 6 in Wisdom now. Let's put the table on again, just to compare.

{table=head] Description | Points | Attribute Score
Dim | -3 | 4
Rash | -2 | 6
Impulsive | -1 | 8
Average | 0 | 10
Rational | 1 | 12
Shrewd | 2 | 14
Wise | 3 | 16
Sage | 4 | 18
[/table]

So, now, he has one too many points, and only one last stat... let's see what we can do. How influential, charismatic, is this soldier?

{table=head]Description | Points | Attribute Score
Sociopathic | -3 | 4
Antisocial | -2 | 6
Gruff | -1 | 8
Average | 0 | 10
Friendly | 1 | 12
Charming | 2 | 14
Influential | 3 | 16
Beguiling | 4 | 18
[/table]

Well, Gruff stands out for this character: his experience in the army has given him some tough experience, which effects his interactions with others. Well, now, we have 5 points used: let's look at who we've made in this five minute session.

We have a gruff ex-soldier, hardened by his experiences in life. Nevertheless, because of the war, he's got quick reflexes and a tendency to run into battle whenever needed. Despite this, his incredible strength and toughness keep him safe as he kills his enemies.

Wow. Now you tell me that you've gotten that statted in five minutes. Besides that, it's easy, and pulls people directly into the game by forcing them to describe their character, and, by doing so, creating backstory and context, as we've already done. Not bad.

Problem is, what if a character isn't gruff, maybe, more of a quiet, reserved, person? Can that be described here too? You bet. Let's compile a few things, and add a few adjectives (I told you I loved them, right?)

{table=head]Strength|Dexterity|Constitution|Intelligence|Wisdo m|Charisma |Points | Attribute

Weakling, Disabled, Incapicitated|Sloth, Crippled, Handicapped|Frail, Deathly, Ailing|Crude, Dense, Dumb |Daft, Foolish, Oblivious|Unintelligible, Disturbing, Unsettling|-3|4

Wimp, Anemic, Decrepit|Badger, Clumsy, Ungainly |Temperamental, Fragile, Debilitated|Thick, Simple, Unlearned|Rash, Thoughtless, Impulsive|Uncivil, Invisible, Antisocial|-2|6

Waif, Weak, Tired|Klutz, Slow, Impaired|Soft, Wimpy, Delicate|Fool, Vapid, Ignorant|Sheepish, Foolhardy, Imperceptive|Gruff, Quiet, Unnoticeable|-1|8

Average|Average|Average|Average|Average|Average|0| 10

Toned, Well-Built, Muscular |Cat, Quick, Speedy|Tough, Durable, Stout|Sharp, Clever, Bright|Sound, Sensible, Prudent|Friendly, Appealing, Attractive|+1|12

Strong, Robust, Brawny|Rabbit, Fast, Agile |Sturdy, Buff, Rugged |Cunning, Learned, Astute|Careful, Perceptive, Watchful|Influential, Charming, Alluring|+2|14

Beefy, Muscular, Burly|Fox, Lightning, Flash|Resilient, Durable, Industrial-Strength|Brilliant, Highly Intelligent, Knowledgeable|Wise, Experienced, Shrewd|Manipulative, Captivating, Magnetic|+3|16

Mighty, Olympic, Legendary|Viper, Precognizant, Fleet|Implacable, Juggernaut, Unstoppable|Genius, Scientific, Intellectual|Sage, Sapient|Seductive, Influential, Prominent|+4|18[/table]

All this, then, gives us a great place to start. But, that begs the question: can it be done with classes? Let's find out.

SamBurke

2012-04-16, 12:50 AM

Chassis
-This is actually my fourth attempt to get these bad boys written into the system: it's just going to be tough. Also, life has a nasty uppercut. Nasty.-

Let's talk about DnD for a moment: it pretty much *is* the class system. It really started it, created the driving urge to have classes. Honestly, it's done more to affect RPGs (yes, even video games) than anything else in the last forty years.

So, then, let's take that wonderful history of straight advancement and smash it on the ground like a Justin Beiber record, and work on another way. Why? Because we want to build a character precisely the way we want to. AND because this way, we can balance things much easier.

Saves

Let's start with keeping another staple of DnD: Saves, BAB, and Skills.

There are Three types of saves: Good, Middle, and Poor. Same goes for BAB and Skills.

{table=head] Save | Cost
Good | 3
Middle | 2
Poor | 1
[/table]
By way of Comparison, Fighters have two good saves and two poor ones. Wizards have one good and three poor. So, then, how do we balance it? Well, a tradeoff. The points during Chassis Creation carry over into the actual class. Overall, a character gets 10 points for the Chassis, allowing for a large amount of alteration to fit their character. Of course, how would character creation continue without a large table full of adjectives?

{table=head=Save Costs] Reflex | Fortitude | Will | Attack | Skills | Price
Unresponsive | Unhealthy | Weak-minded | Thinker | Specialized| 1
Average | Average | Average | Average | Skilled | 2
Lightning | Rugged | Determined | Warrior | Jack of All Trades| 3
[/Table]

{table=head=Skill Points Per Level] Descriptions | Skill Points | Cost
Specialized, Focused, Laboring |2 | 1
Skilled, Proficient, Experienced |4 | 2
Jack of All Trades, Talented, Deft |6 | 3
[/table]

As usual, of course, this table is subject to change. Will Saves, especially, cover so many different things (Seeing through illusions and as well as resisting mind domination) that it's hard to give them an adjective.

So, then, let's build a chassis for the character we worked on before: we know he has the following stats.

{table=head] Ability Score | Stat
Strength | 18
Constitution | 14
Dexterity | 12
Intelligence | 10
Wisdom | 6
Charisma | -8
[/table]

Now, Here's examples of the various Saves: Good, Bad, and Ugly. Or, in this case, Good, Medium, and Slow.

Saving Throw Progressions
{table=head]Level|Good|Medium|Bad

1st|+2|+1|+0|

2nd|+3|+1|+0|

3rd|+3|+2|+1|

4th|+4|+2|+1|

5th|+4|+3|+1|

6th|+5|+3|+2|

7th|+5|+3|+2|

8th|+6|+4|+2|

9th|+6|+4|+3|

10th|+7|+5|+3|

11th|+7|+5|+3|

12th|+8|+6|+4|

13th|+8|+6|+4|

14th|+9|+6|+4|

15th|+9|+7|+5|

16th|+10|+7|+5|

17th|+10|+8|+5|

18th|+11|+8|+6|

19th|+11|+8|+6|

20th|+12|+9|+6|

[/table]

Besides that, let's give him a name. It's not mandatory, but, by now, he's got backstory (gruff, impulsive, veteran). Let's call him Awesome McBadass.

So, Awesome Mc Badass needs to know what sort of defenses he has. Let's look at that table above, and apply them to the character. Clearly he's a warrior, so he'll get full BAB (3 points). He's quick and tough, though, so let's go with medium progression on both of those (2 each, so 4. Total now is 7). What about his will save? Well, he is a fairly rash person, so being a little less strategic about his thinking makes sense, so we'll go with poor (1). Total is 8, completely perfect.

Awesome McBadass is is ready to go.

Only... he can't do anything. He needs Class Skills, and then a few abilities.

So, how do we assign class skills? If you guess, you get a cookie! Actually, no you don't. Because it's obviously a big table full of descriptive words and point values.

How do you figure out where you get your points? Glad you asked. Go ahead and look at the above table of Skills Per level, and multiply it by Three. There you go!

Skills

{table=head=Skills] Description | Skill | Point Cost
Acrobat, Daredevil, Athlete, Escape Artist, Bullied| Acrobatics| 2
Worker, Miner, Sailor, Climber, Swimmer, Mountain or Sea Dweller | Athletics |2
Liar, Cardshark, Rogue| Bluff| 3
Talker, Empath, Businessman, Politician, Knight| Diplomacy| 5
Smith, Thief, Trapper, Tinkerer| Disable Device| 1
Con Artist, Makeup Artist, Actor| Disguise| 1
Wizard, Arcanist| Fly| 1
Woodsman, Herder, Naturalist, Knight, Rural, Nobility, Ranger| Handle Animal| 1
Warrior, Veteran, Thug| Intimidate| 3
Adventurer, Architect, Miner| Know: Dungeoneering| 1
Builder, Artist| Know: Engineering| 1
Cartographer, Traveler, Connoisseur, Map-reader| Know: Geography| 1
Historian, Up-to-date, Investigator| Know: History| 1
Local, Wanderer, Pilgrim| Know: Local| 3
Knight, Courtier, Politician, In-the-know| Know: Nobility| 1
Cultist, Wizard, Loremaster| Know: Planes| 3
Priest, Cleric, Explorer| Know: Religion| 3
Translator, Multi-Cultural, Globe-walker| Linguistics| 1
Sentry, Observant, Wary| Perception| 0
Bard, Poet, Street Performer| Perform| 1
Insightful, Guard, Investigator, Priest| Sense Motive| 2
Illusionist, Pickpocket, Ledgermain| Sleight of Hand| 1
Scientist, Dabbler, Mage, Intellectual| Spellcraft| 10
Urchin, Thief, Poacher, Hunter, Assassin| Stealth| 3
Outdoorsman, Huntsman, Traveler, Doctor, Herbalist, Naturalist, Druid| Survival| 3
Shop Owner, Businessman, Hobbyist, Worker, Tradesman, Employed| Trade |0
[/table]

Skill Changes:

INTIMIDATE:
-Intimidate: The intimidate check is now Charisma PLUS (+) Constitution and Strength. It is recommended that the total skill check be moved upwards by about 5 from printed DCs.

TRADE:
Trade now includes all aspects of normal NPC life: Craft, Profession, and Appraise.

ATHLETICS:
Combining both Swim and Climb here, which are used as normal.

HANDLE ANIMAL:
Handle Animal now contains both Handle Animal proper and Ride, due to the necessity of knowing your animal in riding.

SPELLCRAFT:
Spellcraft, the most expensive skill by far at Ten SkP, combines Spellcraft, Knowledge: Arcana, and Use Magic Device's traditional uses.

SURVIVAL:
Survival now includes three skills: Survival as before, as well as Heal and Knowledge: Nature.
-Heal: Heal now allows you to gain more HP per day, if applied correctly. The DC is 32 (-) Target's Constitution Score. For every three that you beat the DC by, you give the target an additional 1/2 Class level HP gained. You may take 10, unless rushed, but may not take 20.

Skill Advancement
COMMENTARY: As mentioned before, this game's main advancement is through roleplay. In other words, out of the Narritivist/gamist/simulationist trichotomy, this is all about the narrative. Let's take an example of one of the most critically acclaimed games of recent years, Bethseda's Skyrim. The progression is smooth, and IMMERSIVE. See, when you pick one lock, you get better at picking other locks. Your skill at picking locks doesn't get increased when you fire a bow at something, or stab it, or use magic, or anything like that. And that's how it should be. So, skill advancement works similarly.

MECHANICS: When you use a skill, you have a chance of advancing it. If you decide to take 10 or 20, you do not advance a skill, because you're merely doing the activity mechanically, without thought. However, when you use the ability, and succeed, you roll a dice. If the roll is the maximum number for the dice or above (4+ for D4, 20+ for d20, etc), then you advance the skill one step up.

However, it is not always easy for a hero. As you get more skilled, the skill curve gets steeper.

The way to do it is simple: using online dice rollers (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm), you can have any number dice you like. Thus, the number of the dice is the number of the next level. In addition to this, you still get skill points according to investing, as before, though they are less common.

Finally, a bonus is given to any character rolling, from one half of the ability associated with that skill, rounded up. A second bonus of +1 is given to anyone who invested that ability as a class skill.

Awesome McBadass decided that he wanted Survival +2, and invested in it. He makes two Survival Checks; one to determine if a rampaging Bulette was dangerous, and the second one to heal faster after it mauled him. Each time he makes these checks, he rolls, and fails. Since this seems like a pretty useful skill, he wants to level it up. So, the next time he can, he makes a survival check to see if a plant is poisonous. Sadly, he fails this.

On the brighter side, he can now make a Survival: Heal check to recover hit points, which allows him to roll a D3. The tension is thick: his -1 penalty from having a penalty to Wisdom is counter-balanced by his investment in it. Then, things look up! He rolls a 3, and now has Survival+3.

NOTA BENE: This does not apply to Perception, any skill that is used for your destiny abilities, or other skills at GM Discretion.
GMs, please be aware that there is a possibility that someone will try and cheat this system. If someone spams an ability, or such, then it may be necessary to limit or hinder the ability, or up the modifier. It is also recommended that less used abilities, such as Survival or Heal, be allowed to progress faster, or get a higher bonus.

Morality
COMMENTARY:
Anybody actually like the DnD system of morality? Anybody? Anybody? Beuller? Beuller?

Didn't think so.

With that out of the way, a serious analysis of such morality can come to light. Well, it makes sense to me that morality should be as open, and immersive, as anything else. Now, there are two ways to do this:

First, completely disregard any open system of morality. While this is appealing, and easy idea, it's not going to work, because that leaves a lot of spells with issues. So, we have to figure out a way that both makes sense, AND works with spells. Easy thing, right?

Second, develop a system that rewards the player for playing their character. As seen above, the Immersion Project is precisely that: you get XP when you play your character. So, how is it done? Well, DnD has given us a few useful things, which can be applied to its spells: The axes. Axises? Axese? The lines of movement for a character.

One last note: I've left off one of the components of alignment: EVIL. Well, that's for good reason. Whilst with this system, it wouldn't be difficult to set up, I don't believe that players should be encouraged to be more evil, ever. In addition, it just messes up things (for example, being both selfish and selfless at the same time, and getting XP for either one) That said, let's look at the remaining three components, and some keywords for them:

GOOD
Chivalry, Kindness, Protecting, Friendship, Generosity.

LAWFUL
Honor, Loyalty, Conformity, Unity, Respect, Tradition, Honesty.

CHAOTIC
Freedom, Independence, Progress, Science, Achievement, Pride, Personal Goals, Strength, Laughter.

A few further things must be noted:

GMs- This system can be abused, as it is based on the idea of roleplaying, which is subjective. Please, please, be careful, and allow latitude. The penalty for roleplaying against the character is there to prevent people from abusing RP or trying to game the system: do NOT set moral traps with XP penalties. Feel free to have moral choices, but do NOT penalize the players for your scenario.

PLAYERS- This system relies a lot on the honor code, and can be broken. Please don't.

SamBurke

2012-04-16, 12:52 AM

Destinies

Well, then, time to actually, FINALLY, get these bad boys up. Nothing I can do to stop it.

Absolutely nothing.

Since we have ourselves a character named Awesome Mc Badass, ex-soldier, now butt-kicker, we gotta have him DO stuff. But what stuff? Well, let’s lay out a few choices, shall we?

BUT WAIT! Can’t do that at all, until we have a system. Here’s how it works: everyone gets two character points per level: these can be used immediately, or saved for a few levels for better goodies. The idea here is to create roughly equal “feats” if you will: as they’re called here, Destinies.

Each destiny is theoretically purchasable at any level by any character, with a few caveats in the way of number of previous destinies purchased, similar to the way manuevers work in ToB. That means creating a gish or combination character is fantastically simple, following the more familiar -and more intuitive- “multiclassing” more prevalent in video games.

Awesome McBadass has got himself two points, at first level. He wants to get a few Destinies, and so looks through the list. He likes two that his GM his made: One about fist-fighting, and another about magical growth. Problem is, the one for enhanced growth costs all two points, and he really wants that fist fighting.

So, he decides to be a fist-fighter, telling himself he’ll get the other one later. Next level, he gets two more points -in addition to whatever extra points the gm may give for roleplay- which means he can buy the magic growth, and still have a point left over.

Lucky man.

All these possibilities and the open character design is counterbalanced by the fact that each player has incentive to get new things fairly often: they have to keep up, and do something new. It’s just human nature to get something now instead of waiting: bird in the hand, if you will.

NOTE: You'll find that most of these destinies are suspiciously similar to current system abilities. This is on purpose: I'm not re-inventing the wheel... OK, I am re-inventing the wheel. But I want this to look like Pathfinder and thus DnD when I finish. So Fury looks like Rage and Precision looks like Sneak Attack. They hopefully make more sense from an immersion perspective, but work the game in the same ways.

Martial Destinies

Berserker
A crushingly unstoppable force, a Berserker doesn’t need to protect himself, as none survive long enough for that. Those who ascribe to a Beserker’s Destinies are strong in battle, cutting down their enemies, with neglect for themselves. They rain blows with power, or skill, with stealth or speed or strength or allies, but they do the damage regardless.

Fury, Adrenaline, Blood Rage, Battle Rush
The primal rush of adrenaline powers any warrior. But for some, it’s far more. Strength and stamina surging, a warrior in his battle rush fights ever on.

Requirements:Medium or Good Attack.
When in fury, +4 Constitution, +4 Strength. However, because of the impulsive nature of battle, you also take -2 Wisdom. Fury lasts for up to Con mod +3 rounds and may only be used for twice a day. You are fatigued after ending it, and cannot begin. Activation costs 0 Action points.
Cost: 2

Fury Power, Unlocked Potential, No Bounds
When in the throes of battle, strange things happen. Weaklings become men. Men become heroes. Heroes... well, they live forever.

Only usable when in Fury or Focus. Same as Pathfinder’s Rage Powers.

Requirements: Only one Fury Power per two levels.
Cost: Depends

Focus, Serenity, Calm Experience of War
While the young rush to their deaths, experienced soldiers know to attack precisely, with skill.

Requirements: Cannot use Wisdom as a casting stat.
While in Focus, +4 Dexterity, +4 Wisdom. However, because of the time spent in focusing thought, you also take -1 Action Point per round. Focus lasts for up to Wisdom modifier +3 rounds, and may only be used twice a day. You are fatigued after ending it. You cannot take this and Rage.
Activation costs 0 Action points.
Cost: 2

Greater Fury, Veteran’s Battle Rush[b]
When you fight and fight, you learn the the right points to attack, the right ways to survive.

Requirements:You must have at least 4 Fury Powers to use this Destiny.
Fury now grants +6 Strength and +6 Constitution, and -2 to Wisdom.
Cost: 3

[b]Greater Focus, Seasoned Serenity
Every battlefield could be the death of any man, but it is never yours.

Requirements: You must have good Attack rating (Full BAB). You must have at least 4 Fury Powers.
Focus now grants you +6 Dexterity, +6 Wisdom, and +2 to all saves. You still take the penalty to your action points.
Cost: 3

Stamina, Great Constitution, Lengthy Battle
Other soldiers may weary when wielding the blade, but you never will.

Requirements:Constitution 16+. Greater Focus or Greater Fury.
You are not fatigued after using Focus or Fury.
Cost: 4

Powerful Blow, Stunning Strike, Staggering Punch
Every blow of a seasoned warrior is measured, slowing or even stopping his enemies with deliberate, powerful, blows.

For one extra action point on a turn, force your opponent to make a 10+1/2Level+Strength mod Will Save from a single melee attack.
Cost: 2

Rush, Leap, Vault
Warriors, rogues, and any who know the arrow or blade know the importance of being able to move quickly.

Jump up to 15 feet of space, or ten feet upwards for one action point.
Cost: 2

Vet’s Strike, Greater Blows, Cutting Smite
Every battle hardens the muscles, trains the eyes, and prepares a great warrior: and so he grows.

+1d6 damage on weapons damage from a full attack per point spent.
Cost: 1[/i]

[b]Commanding Presence, Powerful Voice, Intimidating Stature
Great warriors are known, and their deeds travel before them. Thus may many lesser men quake in fear, hoping only to be on the same side.

Requirements:
An additional +3 to Intimidate for every point spent.
Cost: 1

Whirlwind Assault, Spinning Attack
The blade can be used in a variety of ways, and this is certainly one of the more interesting ones: blows rain from every angle, in every direction.

Attacks may be made at any number of adjacent targets, as long as you have the attack points for it. This includes Attacks of Opportunity.
Cost: 1

Push, Shove, Throw
The sheer physics required to push a warrior in full armor back five or ten feet is astounding... unless, of course, you do that as a matter of habit.

Push against opponent’s Reflex save. For every 5 above the initial DC, push him back an additional five feet in the direction desired, or prone.
Cost: 1

Leaping Attack, Running Blow, Battle Speed, Pounce
In war, the only thing more important than stopping your enemies is mobility: you have both.

Requirements:Rage, three other Berserker Destinies. Good BAB. Move Speed at least 30’.
Movement costs only 1 Action point on any turn where you attack at least twice.
Cost: 4

Resist, Inspire, Bolstering Cry
The sound of the ancient horns, the primal yells of the hordes or tribes, all of these have their place; to strengthen, empower, and send onwards their armies.

Take half of your Intimidate bonus, not affected by Commanding Presence, and add it to one roll per encounter. This can be used, bonus halved again, by anyone within 30 feet of you.
Cost: 2

Juggernaut
The undaunting strength of battle, each any who would stand between those whom he loves and danger is a true juggernaut. The one who defends, protects, and roars through death without a care in the world. Nothing can stop them, nothing can hurt them. Truly great warriors.

No Pain, Bloodless, Damage Reduction
When one stands in battle, paltry wounds cannot distract: and they do not.

One less point of damage is taken from an attack per 2 Destiny points spent.
cost: 2
Toughness, Long Life, Greater Vitality

Requirements10 Constitution, +2 for every time this destiny is chosen. (12 Con, 14 Con, etc).
+1HP per level per point spent.
Cost: 1

Delayed Damage, Damage Pool, Steely Resolve
Dealing with pain is for lesser men and weaker soldiers: you fight wars and THEN patch up, the way true warriors fight.

You gain a delayed damage pool equal to 5x the number of points invested. When you take damage, you can put it into the delayed damage pool until it reaches maximum. Damage taken becomes effective immediately after the encounter ends, or after Conmod rounds are up, whichever is quicker.
Cost: 1

Shield Wall, Legion’s Defense, Shield Brethren
Discipline is just as important as strength: each man protecting the one beside him goes ‘round to protect all. And that’s invincible.

Must be using a shield
For every ally adjacent to you, you get +2 AC. They get +4 for being next to you.
Cost: 1

Shield Another, Protect, Defend Allies
You stand between your allies and any who would harm them: all comers, foe and death, must cross you. And that’s just dangerous.

When an enemy would move towards or attack an ally of yours, you may take one of two actions: move towards them for one Action Point (taken from your next turn), blocking all attacks from that source towards them, or take all their damage for them. If you take their damage, it is halved. Using a shield gives you DR1/-Epic, Magic against the attacks blocked.
Cost:1

Fast Reflexes, Quick Responses, Improved Initiative
A Juggernaut is always first to see battle, and always first to charge into a fray. He’s just that fast.

+4 to Initiative.
Cost: 1

Shield, Sword and Board, Knight’s Style
The shield is a classic strength of any soldier, and it aids him throughout his life, no matter the foe or danger.

Requirement: Use a shield.
Each time you invest in this Destiny gives you a further +1 Shield AC, Stackable, as well as +1 damage on attacks made while using a shield to defend. Every fourth, you also gain +2 Attack.
Cost: 1

Translocate, Blink, Battle Jump
Mobility takes many forms. Including instantaneous line-of-sight teleportation.

Requirement: Must have a type of magical source (casting, magic item, magical beast companion, etc)
Teleport as a free action 5’ per level of the item or source (by spell level, not character level).
Cost: 2

Dodge, Reflexes of War
Jumping out of the way saves the lives of many a man, and you do it none too slowly.

+2 Dodge AC, +1 to Reflex Save, +1 Initiative per 2 points spent.
Cost: 2

Blood Rage, Pain’s Power, Bloodlust
Some warriors not only shrug off the damage, they use it to power themselves; hatred, strength, whatever it may be, it’s formidable.

Damage taken may be converted into temporary hit points for [Constitution modifier] rounds. At the end of that time, it is taken, doubled.
Cost: 2

Switch Places, Transpose
Moving into others’ places keeps them safer, and gives you more battle, as it should be.

You may switch places with any ally within your move distance for one Action Point (taken from your next turn). If carrying a shield, they get a +2 Shield Bonus to AC, and you get +1, Stackable.
Cost: 1

Lightning, Fighting Instincts
You move with speed, dodging spells and fire with ease.

+4 to Reflex Saves.
Cost: 1

Steadfast, Hardy
No poison or blow can fell you, no matter how strong.

+4 to Fortitude Saves.
Cost: 1

Strong Mind, Piercing Eyes
Illusions and mind-dominating wizards may do their worst. It just isn’t bad enough.

+4 to Will Saves.
Cost: 1

Well-rounded, High Saves, Strong of Mind, Body, and Soul

Requirements: 11+ on Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution.
You gain +3 to all saves.
Cost: 2

Drunken Rage, Stuporous Fighting, Barroom Bred Battler
Whether you got it before or after a soldier, you’re more at home when you’ve got a mug in one hand, or a belly full of firewater, destroying enemies with inebriated carelessness. Pain does not hurt, and nothing is safe from being thrown or destroyed.

RequirementsNot using Focus or Rage.
Drink alcohol as a Move action, or before a fight (lasts for one hour), to gain Drunken Rage. While in Drunken Rage, you gain DR 2/-Epic, Magic. In addition, you gain +4 Strength, immunity to fear, emotion-destroying spells, and the benefits of the Throw Anything and Improved Bullrush feats.
Cost: 4

Twin Blade
A whirling, flashing, storm, each blade’s path matters but little in that deadly, deadly, dance it weaves, as each foe falls at his step.

Second Sword, Twin Cuts, Double Blow
Wielding one blade takes a life of constant study... to take two, to wreave and rend with one then the next, takes unimaginable skill.

Requirements: Dex 12
Whenever you would get an attack with your primary weapon, you gain a second attack with your alternate weapon, at a -4 Attack Penalty.
Cost: 1

Triplicate, Great Two Weapon Fighting, Triple Slice
Dashing in for the attack, your great blade cleaves, and cleaves again, punctuated only by the deadly slices of the second sword.

Requirements: Second Sword, Dex 16
You may make a third attack when you would have two from Second Sword. If using your alternate weapon, take a -7 penalty. If using your primary weapon, take a -4 penalty on all attacks with it for this turn, due to the difficulty of maneuvering.
Cost: 2

Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, Fourth
Dicing and slashing, your blades are not a blur. Such would be too common for the miracle of death-giving that now anoints your twin destroyers. Choose a name as you see fit, for none can say nay.

Requirements: Triplicate
You may now make a fourth attack according to the rules of Triplicate.
Cost: 2

Sword and Board, Knight’s Array, Shield
Your second weapon is no mere sword, but a sturdy defender, the weapons of a seasoned veteran. You carry them with pride, and they are in your hands and ready in an instant.

You can use any shield without penalty, including a Tower Shield, with a one-handed weapon. In addition, you may draw your shield and sword as a free action.
Cost: 1

Shield Bash
Warriors know to use every advantage, and the shield is no exception: it is not just a defense, it is a weapon of its own.

Requirements: 14 Strength.
You may make an attack with your shield for 2 Action Points, to do one of 2 things: First, deal 2x Str Mod damage. Second, push them back 5’ if they fail a Reflex save of your Strength Mod + 10 +1/2 your level. For each 5 they fail their save by, they are moved back an additional 5’.
Cost: 2

Shield Daze, Punishing Bash
The smash of solid steel, iron, and wood leaves any foe hit by your shield senseless.

Requirements: Shield Bash
For an additional Action Point, when using Shield Bash, you may force your opponents to make a Fortitude save, equal to 10+your Level + your Strength bonus.
Cost: 1

Defending Dagger, Parry, Dueler’s Stance
The second weapon is no mere crude weapon of assault, indeed, it can interpose between its wielder and other blades.

Requirements: Second Sword.
When using Second Sword, you can choose to have it instead make defensive blocks and parries. Make an attack roll against any attack of your opponent’s, at the normal penalties. If you equal or exceed their attack, you parry. If you later take Triplicate or Greater Two Weapon fighting, you may make up to two or three parries respectively.
Cost: 1

Cleave, Sliding Cut
Your blade sinks through one foe, then the next, cleaving through enemies’ mere flesh.

When you make a successful hit on one opponent, you may also make the same attack at the same bonus to anyone standing adjacent to him and in your reach, at the same penalties and bonuses. For each additional point spent, you may do this twice more.
Cost: 1

Whirlwind Assault, Spin Attack, Blade Circle
Your weapon crushes all those around you... literally.

Requirements:Cleave
You may attack anyone in your reach with the assault from Cleave.
Cost:1

Combat Jump, Quick Move
Your speed across the battlefield is unbelieveable, and that leaves enemies bewildered, outwitted, flanked... and dead.

Add 10’ to your movement for each time you ascend to this destiny, as well as 5’ to your 5’ step, up to twice. This means that for investing two points, your move speed will be 20’ greater, and your Five Foot Step will be 15’.
1

Leaping Attack, Running Blow, Battle Speed, Pounce
In war, the only thing more important than stopping your enemies is mobility: you have both.

Requirements: Move Speed at least 50’
Movement costs only 1 Action point on any turn where you attack at least twice.
Cost: 4

Translocate, Blink, Battle Snap
Mobility takes many forms. Including instantaneous line-of-sight teleportation.

Requirement: Must have a type of magical source (casting, magic item, magical beast companion, etc)
Teleport as a free action 5’ per level of the item or source (by spell level, not character level).
Cost: 2

Dimension Dervish, Blinking Blade, Swordsman of the Planes
When you teleport, leap, jump, or run, you stab from every side of an enemy without a second thought.

When moving for less than 1 action point, you may do so without any penalty, such as being dazed. In addition, your attacks are considered flanking, and your opponent looses his dexterity bonus to AC.
Cost: 1

Bleed, Bleeding Strikes
Long, open wounds left by your weapons are not merely painful once, but for a long time afterwards, thanks to a slow, slow, bleed.

When you make an attack, you may sacrifice your Strength Damage on that turn to get ½ your level as damage to that enemy for a number of turns equal to what your strength damage would have been.
Cost: 1

SamBurke

2012-04-16, 12:53 AM

Implementation and EXTRAS!

This system is just a guide: as long as it helps to make your game more immersive, it's succeeded. Here are a few ways to help ease people in:

Describe Yourself, thanks to RealmsofChaos

Ever wonder why dating sites ask you to describe yourself? I still do, because it's useless for dating, but it does turn out to be extremely helpful for RPGs. Maybe you need a quick way to introduce characters, or an easy handle for them, a character bio or the like. This is a fantastic way to do it.

Hello, my name is ______________(name). I am a(n) young/adult/middle-age/old/venerable ____________(race) and it is nice to meet you. My hair is ______________, my eyes are __________________, and my skin is ___________________. I am __'___'' tall and I weight _____ lbs. I worship __________. I am (a [bit]) sickly/fragile/wimpy/average/sturdy/buff/tough/juggernaut so far as my endurance is concerned and I have the strength of a mouse/child/weakling/average human/laborer/warrior/ox/giant. My movements seem crippled/clumsy/slow/average/quick/graceful/alacritous/precognizant. I have the mind of a(n) newt/idiot/child/average human/merchant/scholar/professor/genius and my wit can be described as dim/rash/impulsive/average/rational/shrewd/wise/enlightened. When dealing with others, I am pretty sociopathic/antisocial/gruff/average/friendly/charming/influential/beguiling. Using (insert list of "power sources" here), I act to (insert list of "jobs" here). When forced into the fray, I fight using my ___________________(weapon) and I wear no/light/medium/heavy armor. I also carry __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________ on my person at most times. My particular talents outside of combat include _________________________________________________ (list of skills).

One of the best ways to do this would be to ask people to fill this out before they come to the first session of the game. It's not too much, and it doesn't require numbers. Plus, they get to write about how cool they are. Shouldn't be too bad.

Interviewing the Suspects:

If you prefer the Bioware game opener, you could always have the characters in trouble, being interviewed and documented by the police. Alternately, about to get hired for a dangerous job, or for some sort of promotion in the guards. All in all, you just need an excuse to INTERVIEW someone.

Basically, just ask a few questions about who they are, their skills and experiences. It may even be a chance to build backstory off the top of your head: the best kind.

Just be careful when applying this to not leave out the other players for too long: this may be better done beforehand, as a group, or in extremely short times.

Toapat provided this tongue-in-cheek method of generating a skill set, expanded on a little:

{table=head=Skills] Description | Skill | Point Cost
"Parkour. Plain and simple." | Acrobatics| 2
"I know a guy for that."| Appraise| 1
"You know, the knockoffs look more realistic then the actual Holy Grail."| Bluff| 3
"Ook."| Climb| 1
"Look, this war has cost your kingdom thousands of gold, take the deal!"| Diplomacy| 5
"Ok, red wire is live, blue wire is ground. Or is it the other way?"| Disable Device| 1
"Why hello my dear, I was oh so fortunate to be in the county only to stumble upon your divinity"| Disguise| 1
*Batman cut*| Escape Artist| 1
"It's a bird! It's a plane! Nope, Chuck Testa playing a 5th Level wizard."| Fly| 1
Fluttershy. That is all.| Handle Animal| 1
"Come on, stay with me Jim."| Heal| 1
"There are a thousand ways i could kill you right now, and 946 of them hurt."| Intimidate| 3
"Yes, that's what magic is. Not Friendship, SCIENCE."| Know: Arcana| 2
"That's not a floor, it's a choker!"| Know: Dungeoneering| 1
"It's gonna blow!"| Know: Engineering| 1
"His name is Inigo Montoya, from Guilder."| Know: Geography| 1
"You killed his father."| Know: History| 1
"His favorite words are, 'Prepare to die.'"| Know: Local| 3
"That's a creeper. You should run."| Know: Nature| 3
"Like a Sir."| Know: Nobility| 1
"Nope. Definitely not a demon. Noooooope. That's a devil."| Know: Planes| 3
"So... we probably *shouldn't* have taken that deal from Asmodeous?"| Know: Religion| 3
"Ok, so the Orcish word for candy is the Common word for child, I wonder why that is?"| Linguistics| 1
"Hmm, something flashed in those shadows."| Perception| 0
"So, this one time, I got in a staring contest with a Basilisk."| Perform| 1
*Clang**Clang**Clang**Hisss*"Ok, heres your Excalibur"| Profession| 0
"Hi ho, Silver, Aw.. What do you mean, that can't be my battle-cry?"| Ride| 1
"I know that you know that i know that you know that i know..."| Sense Motive| 2
"What Maguffin?"| Sleight of Hand| 1
"He wants to cast Magic Missile. At the darkness."| Spellcraft| 3
"Hes behind me isnt he."| Stealth| 3
"Ok, Purple is poisonous... You just drank it, didnt you."| Survival| 2
"Oh, so heavy armor is *not* good in water...?"| Swim| 1
"Ooh, what does this button do?" *Explode*| Use Magical Device| 4
[/table]

Welknair

2012-04-16, 12:57 AM

That begs the question: can it be done with classes?

THIS is the question. This is the reason why I didn't immediately post my own.

Progressive Start works best with atomistic character elements - Ability scores being a good example. Skill points, and even feats could be done similarly. The real challenge is the CHUNK of classes.

And to have a true Progressive Start, at least the way I have it envisioned, you hand the players their papers and start right there. As the first game session goes on, they create their character sheets through the course of play. They may (And probably should) start with a basic idea of who they want to be, but the actual traits are chosen essentially on-the-fly.

A good example of this is the Nine Princes of Amber series, by Roger Zelazny. Or at least the start. The main character wakes up with amnesia, and has to figure out who he is. He doesn't know what he can do, how strong he is, etc., but as things go on he slowly figures it out. He's slowly filling out his character sheet.

You have a good start, and I'm eager to see what you do to add to it.

Owrtho

2012-04-16, 01:35 AM

To be honest, I'd expect a system like the above would actually work best with a classless system. Mainly as that would allow you to pretty much tailor the character based on how you envision it, rather than having to shoehorn it into the closest approximate pre-set ability group you can find (not that there wouldn't be limiting factors with a classless system, just that there would be less). Not that I don't like classes, it just is that they aren't quite as well suited for this.

Owrtho

Welknair

2012-04-16, 01:43 AM

SamBurke

2012-04-16, 02:07 AM

Welknair

2012-04-16, 02:15 AM

It would be much better for classless, I know... I'd just have to develop a classless system, first.

While I do have an idea for a unisystem like that, I'm trying first to see if I can make more sense of Pathfinder, bless its soul.

Turning Classed D&D to Classless? This I'd like to see.

Actually.. I've just had some more ideas. Hmm. I may need to type these up.

Just to Browse

2012-04-16, 02:29 AM

This thread could also be aptly titled "Yo, DM, I heard you Liked Adjectives".

Milo v3

2012-04-16, 04:23 AM

I suggest you look at this (http://www.mimgames.com/window/rules/)system called The Window.

elpollo

2012-04-16, 08:34 AM

It took me weeks of studying the SRD to understand what was really going on with the game I was playing, and that was fast compared to my failures at other systems.

It's a reference document, not a rulebook. Actual rulebooks make this sort of thing much easier, as they have a lot of information included that SRDs generally don't.

That's how you start the game. A blank piece of paper. No character sheet needed.

If you have a sheet of paper on which you are going to write your character's information, isn't that a character sheet?[/pedant]

Personally, I think the best way to create a character is to ask a player what they want to play. Have them describe who their character is, what he does, what he wants to do.

*snip*

We have a gruff ex-soldier, hardened by his experiences in life. Nevertheless, because of the war, he's got quick reflexes and a tendency to run into battle whenever needed. Despite this, his incredible strength and toughness keep him safe as he kills his enemies.

I'm really not sure how this is any different from teaching someone traditional D&D. If you are trying to help a new person create a character, you're not going to be asking "What Strength score does he have?" - you'll be asking "What sort of character do you want to play". Eventually you'll have to reach "Ok, so how strong is your character", but when they say "Well, he's an ex-soldier, so he's going to be pretty strong, lugging all that armour around all day" you can then advise that they take a strength of 14 or +2 or whatever the strength score of a typical soldier in your system is. All adding a list of words to describe the modifiers does is raises questions over how people interpret different words. "Is my character 'buff' or 'tough'?'" is a significantly more difficult question than "Does my character have an extra point in constitution?", because 'buff' and 'tough' have no real difference when presented with this list of words (similarly 'influential' and 'charming', 'shrewd' and 'rational', 'strong' and 'muscular', 'quick' and 'speedy', 'genius' and 'brilliant'), wheras the extra point in constitution means something concrete (i.e. your chance of succeeding at a constitution check has just increased by 5 percentage points, your get 1 more hit point per level, etc. Incidentally this is one of the things that I like about psionics over Vancian magic - going from Intelligence 18 to 20 is the same increase in power as going from 42 to 44).

Marrying words with numbers is destined to be misrepresentative of the system unless you give verbose descriptions of the capabilites of an individual with said numbers. Saying a character with 8 dexterity is 'Slow' provides no real information - they don't move any slower, they just take longer to react. They also have a harder time opening locks and shooting things, which goes unmentioned. A patient sniper/lockpicker with a leg-wound taking 'Slow' because he likes to take his time with things and walks with a limp is now penalised in the two areas he wished to specialise in because he didn't know the system. Saying "Dexterity: -1" means something - yes, you might have to look up what Dexterity affects, but you're not in a position where your character can't compete in the area he wants to.

That begs the question: can it be done with classes?

Don't class based systems do this already ("I want to be a wizard/soldier/tribal savage/priest/thief")?

Djinn_in_Tonic

2012-04-16, 10:21 AM

I'm really not sure how this is any different from teaching someone traditional D&D. If you are trying to help a new person create a character, you're not going to be asking "What Strength score does he have?" - you'll be asking "What sort of character do you want to play". Eventually you'll have to reach "Ok, so how strong is your character", but when they say "Well, he's an ex-soldier, so he's going to be pretty strong, lugging all that armour around all day" you can then advise that they take a strength of 14 or +2 or whatever the strength score of a typical soldier in your system is. All adding a list of words to describe the modifiers does is raises questions over how people interpret different words. "Is my character 'buff' or 'tough'?'" is a significantly more difficult question than "Does my character have an extra point in constitution?", because 'buff' and 'tough' have no real difference when presented with this list of words (similarly 'influential' and 'charming', 'shrewd' and 'rational', 'strong' and 'muscular', 'quick' and 'speedy', 'genius' and 'brilliant'), wheras the extra point in constitution means something concrete (i.e. your chance of succeeding at a constitution check has just increased by 5 percentage points, your get 1 more hit point per level, etc. Incidentally this is one of the things that I like about psionics over Vancian magic - going from Intelligence 18 to 20 is the same increase in power as going from 42 to 44).

Marrying words with numbers is destined to be misrepresentative of the system unless you give verbose descriptions of the capabilites of an individual with said numbers. Saying a character with 8 dexterity is 'Slow' provides no real information - they don't move any slower, they just take longer to react. They also have a harder time opening locks and shooting things, which goes unmentioned. A patient sniper/lockpicker with a leg-wound taking 'Slow' because he likes to take his time with things and walks with a limp is now penalised in the two areas he wished to specialise in because he didn't know the system. Saying "Dexterity: -1" means something - yes, you might have to look up what Dexterity affects, but you're not in a position where your character can't compete in the area he wants to.

I have to agree with this. I feel that most players quite intuitively grasp the stat system when the stats are explained to them (especially with the fact that 10-11 is the human average). And your proposed system does away with the multi-faceted attribute system: Dexterity is speed, but also manual dexterity. An aged watchmaker isn't fast, but he sure as hell is dexterous. Wisdom and Charisma are other stats that have that sort of dual nature to them, and this system seems to overly simplify that.

I'm curious to see what you have in mind for the other parts of character creation but, while this was an interesting read, I can't see this helping any player I've had at one of my games, because it's an overly simplified version of what I feel a DM *should* be doing with a new player.

RebelRogue

2012-04-16, 03:01 PM

That begs the question: can it be done with classes?
D20 Modern sort of went this route by having a base class for each stat (Strong Hero, Tough Hero, Fast Hero, Smart Hero, Determined Hero, Charismatic Hero IIRC). While not a classless system, it's sort of a continuation of the idea. (On top of that more traditionally focused classes was available as Prestige Classes).

radmelon

2012-04-16, 03:53 PM

D20 Modern sort of went this route by having a base class for each stat (Strong Hero, Tough Hero, Fast Hero, Smart Hero, Determined Hero, Charismatic Hero IIRC). While not a classless system, it's sort of a continuation of the idea. (On top of that more traditionally focused classes was available as Prestige Classes).

Too bad that D20 Modern screwed it up by, among other things, having a ridiculously small number of talents for each class.

Yitzi

2012-04-16, 04:00 PM

For balance reasons, I would advise setting the point cost so that a more rounded character has a higher total than a more focused one, but this basic approach looks great for pushing for a more roleplay-oriented game. (Of course, if someone is determined to min/max, it won't stop them.)

SamBurke

2012-04-16, 05:38 PM

I suggest you look at this (http://www.mimgames.com/window/rules/)system called The Window.

Hm... that looks a lot like what I'm trying to do, only it's without a system. My goal here is to make Pathfinder (and hopefully, thus, 3.5) a little more intuitive from a roleplaying perspective.

For balance reasons, I would advise setting the point cost so that a more rounded character has a higher total than a more focused one, but this basic approach looks great for pushing for a more roleplay-oriented game. (Of course, if someone is determined to min/max, it won't stop them.)

That was one of the problems I saw: because I'm a min/maxer by nature, I knew that the weak point would be dropping stats down to boost others up. That said, I really wanted to reward someone who was legitimately trying to create a character with a weakness or disability.

Any suggestions on how to fix it?

I feel that most players quite intuitively grasp the stat system when the stats are explained to them (especially with the fact that 10-11 is the human average). And your proposed system does away with the multi-faceted attribute system: Dexterity is speed, but also manual dexterity. An aged watchmaker isn't fast, but he sure as hell is dexterous. Wisdom and Charisma are other stats that have that sort of dual nature to them, and this system seems to overly simplify that.

I also understood that there would be problems with Wisdom and Charisma's naming: especially in Pathfinder, there are a whole metric crapton of uses for Charisma: Force of Personality, belief in self, Influence, Beauty, etc, etc.

In addition, I was worried about the interpretation of words and so on.

As to the inherent understanding of the system, it's not as easy as you'd think: especially with how they interact with the rest of the game, it just doesn't make much sense. Take for example Welknair's notes about the system's gaining of skill points, here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12649707#post12649707)

Besides that, the point is not just to make the system more intuitive: as the title says, it's to build immersion. Like that system Milo brought up, telling them their abilities in words, instead of numbers, builds a game based on words, not numbers. First impressions matter quite a bit in defining a game, and doing so in this manner as opposed to numbers will define a more character-centric campaign.

So, here's my suggestion to fix these problems: have a list of words or descriptions in each box, to generally describe it. Say, three or four; enough at least to define several of the more complex stats, IE, all of them.

What do you think?

EDIT:

Don't class based systems do this already ("I want to be a wizard/soldier/tribal savage/priest/thief")?

I'm actually going to be taking it a slightly different angle: you can "Create your own classes", more or less. The words will sort you towards a class that does what you want it to, not what it says it can.

In other words, if you wanted a kung-fu hero, you wouldn't go to the monk. It claims to be that, but it isn't. Take the swordsage instead. The "create your own classes" part will come a bit later when I have a good few hours to post stuff.

Yitzi

2012-04-16, 06:11 PM

That was one of the problems I saw: because I'm a min/maxer by nature, I knew that the weak point would be dropping stats down to boost others up. That said, I really wanted to reward someone who was legitimately trying to create a character with a weakness or disability.

Any suggestions on how to fix it?

There is no way to fix it, other than having rules known only to the DM (and for that to work more than once, the DM has to be making up the rules himself.) If there is a way to reward something, then optimization will cause that approach to be taken if the reward outweighs the cost.

The second-best way to reward good roleplaying even at the cost of optimization is via some sort of "roleplay points" assigned by the DM on an ad-hoc basis. The best is to set things up so that the best optimization for your game is good roleplaying (probably by making your game a sufficiently good simulation of the game world.)

Apalala

2012-04-16, 08:04 PM

FATE can actually do on the fly character creation like this extremely well.

In FATE, a character is defined by skills, aspects, and stunts. Skills represent everything from diplomacy to fighting ability, and each skill is about as valuable as the next. Stunts are basically their version of feats, which lets you do extra things. Aspects are unique. They're flavorful descriptions of your character, like, "Wizard, rogue, dashing hero, clumsy, oblivious, secret agent of HYDRA, son of Darth Vader" etc. You can invoke an aspect when it's relevant--you could invoke "Wizard" to gain a bonus to casting a spell, or "rogue" to gain a bonus against a flanked target as your sneak attack--and whenever it's a hinderence, it can be compelled to give you FATE points, which you can spend on more invokes.

This makes it easy to make a character on the fly. You start with a general idea and start playing, then, when you want to do something, the DM tells you what skill that is and you put it on your sheet at whichever level you think is most appropriate, from best to worst. Whenever your character does something interesting, you can write it down as an aspect. And after the first session, the GM can suggest some stunts that would help polish off your character.

SamBurke

2012-04-17, 09:54 AM

Updated with the principle and character advancement.

Milo v3

2012-04-17, 06:37 PM

By giving people less XP for doing things that are out of character makes sense while at the same time stops people from ever having character development as they will get less XP with every slight change.

toapat

2012-04-17, 08:27 PM

This project definitely comes off as a bit in need of a list of objectives:

1: Better structuring of the adjective system, this system screws up charisma, dex, and wisdom

{table=head]Strength|Dexterity|Constitution|Intelegence|Wisdom |Charisma |Cost | Attribute

Weakling|Sloth|Frail|Crude|Lemming|Unintelligable|-3|4

Wimp|Badger|Tempramental|Lemming|Rash|Uncivil|-2|6

Waif|Klutz|Soft|Fool|Sheepish|Gruff|-1|8

Average|Average|Average|Average|Average|Average|0| 10

Toned|Cat|Tough|Sharp|Sound|Friendly|+1|12

Strong|Rabbit|Sturdy|Cunning|Careful|Influential|+ 2|14

Beefy|Fox|Resilient|Exceptional|Wise|Manipulative| +3|16

Mighty|Viper|Implacable|Genius|Sage|Suductive|+4|1 8[/table]

2: To adapt PF and 3.5 classes, flaws, feats, and skills to expanded versions of the generic classes from UA (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Generic_Classes)

3: Rebuilding of XP awards and the leveling system to better support Roleplay, and to tone down dungeoncrawling's value.

Asto commentary: i think this system works to introduce someone to the games. I think the best way to set this up is have everyone start the game in the middle of a raid on the caravan they have been traveling on/in/with/as guards with, although you still require a bit of foreknowledge about the game then. It seems really fun, but the first few times would be hell to pull off

SamBurke

2012-04-17, 10:09 PM

Milo v3

2012-04-17, 10:16 PM

For the class/classless system have you looked at how Legacy Items abilities are selected when designing custom legacy weapons. It seems like it would work well. As you could choose abilities which slowly scale with relatively good balance.

SamBurke

2012-04-17, 10:19 PM

Milo v3

2012-04-17, 10:21 PM

Legacy weapons have their own book. It is called Weapons of Legacy.

SamBurke

2012-04-17, 10:23 PM

Legacy weapons have their own book. It is called Weapons of Legacy.

What a terrible name! Who'd ever figure out what it was about?

From what I heard, they didn't work well RAW... did anyone do a homebrew "fix?"

toapat

2012-04-17, 10:28 PM

I actually like that table quite a bit; it captures the essence of what I was looking for. The Generic Classes are *similar* to what I'm looking at, but the whole classless thing is the real goal/challenge.

And that last bit is precisely what this is for: even if you just use this for one session to introduce a player to the ideas gently, it'll have been well used.

I aimed to make a good looking table for the qualities of each attribute, there are some weak ones, like lemming showing up twice, but i attempted to better describe them in relation to their level.

Milo v3

2012-04-17, 10:30 PM

What a terrible name! Who'd ever figure out what it was about?

From what I heard, they didn't work well RAW... did anyone do a homebrew "fix?"

That is more the weapons themselves as you get severe penalties if you want to use them. I am more suggesting the method that DMs use to determine the abilities they gain as they level up.

SamBurke

2012-04-18, 09:46 AM

I'll be out over the weekend, contemplating this.

On Monday Night, I'll have a pretty big update.

young_genuis

2012-05-10, 05:25 PM

You could make a generic classes and feats. The feats are what gives you spells, damage, and any other special ability's.
Just saying

SamBurke

2012-05-11, 10:32 AM

That was my plan next; life just kinda uppercutted my face a bit, so I've had delays.

Chronologist

2012-05-11, 11:12 AM

There's a book called Complete Control you can find on the Dramscarred PRess website that allows you to build your character however you like. The upside is that it's very comprehensive and accommodates pretty much any kind of character while still keeping them (relatively) balanced to Tier 2-3. The downside is that it's RIDICULOUSLY complicated.

What you might want would be a system where character every character starts out with a Frame, basically they have d4 hit dice, poor BAB, poor saves all around, 2+Int skill points per level, and no class features. To simplify, make all skills class skills. At every level, they gain a number of Advancement Points, or AP, which can be spent to give them an increase to base attack bonus, saves, skill points, hit die, or even class features when they level up. The character gains more AP at every level, but the costs get cumulatively larger each time. You also "cap" the maximum you can purchase in any quality by the maximum a base class could have (so no BAB higher than your level, no +4 will save until level 4, no Trap sense until level 3, no 3rd level spells until level 5, etc.)

You'll end up with a system where most players will end up with well-rounded saves, attack bonus, skill points, and health, and a variety of useful class features. You'll seldom find specialists, because of how draining overspecialization would be in the system.

Basically it would be a simpler system than Complete Control (which has points totalling in the THOUSANDS at low levels).

SamBurke

2012-05-11, 11:23 AM

At this point, I had only planned on class features, but I think that'd be necessary, too.

Wait. Double-take. THOUSANDS of points? HOLY COW.

Chronologist

2012-05-11, 11:43 AM

Yes, it's in the thousands of points. It starts out at about 4-5 thousand points for first level, then rapidly gets out of hand. I vaguely remember 20th level characters having somewhere in the hundreds of thousands of points to have spent over their careers. It gets really out of hand really quickly.

You'll need to incorporate basic stuff like BAB and hit dice into what characters purchase. You don't want full BAB Wizards with d12 hit dice running around throwing Fireballs and Cone of Colds. But, it's also important to remember that a feat like Toughness is worth about as much as a +1 die step upgrade in hit dice.

The first thing is probably to rate how useful certain features are to a character. Hit dice is not very important, skill points are a little more useful, base attack bonus helps any character not focusing on casting, saves are crucial, class features are very useful, and spellcasting is probably the most desired and expensive thing you could purchase. You'd have to buy each spell per day individually, with an increase in cost with each progressive spell level.

Another option, much easier, is to have characters select things like hit dice, BAB, and saves in advance, and for them to select class features sort of like the Generic classes in Unearthed Arcana. Simpler, but with a lot less room to experiment and break the mold.

For example, what if you wanted to play a rogue-like character with an Eldritch blast and up to 6th level Illusion spells? You can't do that with a generic class.

SamBurke

2012-05-11, 11:45 AM

Precisely what I wanted to do: each class feature would, in essence, be a "feat" with an appropriate cost. Shapechange 1/day would be vastly more expensive than 1d6 Sneak Attack, because not only can it do more, but it should definitely be harder to get to.

What do you all think about the possibility of revamping the magic system?

Chronologist

2012-05-11, 12:01 PM

Vancian magic works pretty well as it is. With the system geared towards encouraging diversity, you should expect to mostly see casters with up to 6th or 7th level spells by 20th level, perhaps a single use of Wish a day.

A way to balance Wizards and Sorcerers might be to make it that whenever a spontaneous caster gains a spell per day, they learn a spell of that level. Prepared casting slots can be filled with any known spell in advance, but cost 50% more to purchase. So, the Wizard buys 4 spell slots, and the Sorcerer gains 6 spell slots and 6 spells known. Maybe every prepared spell slot would give you 3 or 4 spells you can prepare.

You could also reduce the power of magic by making Caster Level something that the character has to purchase, with perhaps a minimum caster level for all characters of 1/2 their character level. So, you could have mages with a few very strong spells per day, or something like a Warlock that does half the damage but can do it almost infinitely.

Noctis Vigil

2012-05-11, 12:08 PM

This is starting to sound vaguely like what I know of GURPS.

Either way, I look forward to seeing how this turns out. I've often wondered what a classless system would look like.

As for levels: why use a level system? There are a few way this could be done without an overarching level, the simplest being make EXP equate to straight points you purchase abilities with, with greater power costing more (so BAB +1 cost 3EXP, BAB +2 costs 6, et cetera).

SamBurke

2012-05-11, 12:22 PM

As for levels: why use a level system? There are a few way this could be done without an overarching level, the simplest being make EXP equate to straight points you purchase abilities with, with greater power costing more (so BAB +1 cost 3EXP, BAB +2 costs 6, et cetera).

I'm not using a level system, actually. XP relates rather directly to your build: it's what you use.

As to Vancian casting, I never liked it from a character stand point, but I think it makes most sense to people, so it'd need to be the place to start.

Chronologist

2012-05-11, 12:32 PM

If you want more freedom in magic, you could always check out the Words of Power system for Pathfinder. It still uses spell slots but you can make your own spells from different effects you know how to use.

Or you could use a Spell Point / Power Point system. You'd have to buy spells known and spell points separately, though, so you might get VERY powerful blasters who only know 2 or 3 spells of every level, but can keep casting forever.

The hardest part I figure is going to be assigning a value to class features. I figure they would probably cost about the same amount as the effective spell level of the bonus, plus the spell points needed to cast it once for every use you have, with maybe a 20 or 30% reduction due to it being less flexible than other spells.

SamBurke

2012-05-11, 12:54 PM

After the points were assigned, a lot of play testing would be necessary, that's for sure. People willing and able to bend, twist, and destroy the system, to try and perfect it.

Noctis Vigil

2012-05-11, 02:04 PM

I strongly recommend taking a good hard look at D&D3.5's psionics rules for a freeform spellcasting system. For starts, it's far more linear than Vancian casting, as well as being more flexible. Additionally, the power point system would be easier to implement with a point-buy type system than a spells-by-level system.

And I know a guy who's amazing with numbers; when the system is close to being play-ready, I'll show it to him and tell him to break it as horribly as he can. If he can't find a way to destroy it in a day or two, it can't be destroyed.

SamBurke

2012-05-11, 02:31 PM

zegram 33

2012-05-11, 02:39 PM

looks interesting, but i have to agree that the attributes being tied to a word is probably more complicated that just giving a score (see: fallout 3's numerical system being a lot better received than new vegases wordy version. not a bad comparison because the stats are essentially the same as D+D ones)

as for the buying ability system for classes... what about a set of progression tree's, maybe 1-3 branching tree's for each base class already in there, with maybe a free ability from that tree for characters with high ability scores in that tree's primary ability (say the second from higest rank grants one free ability and the highest rank grants two?)

so as a completley random example, perhaps rather than a "rogue" class, you could have 3 tree's of:
sneak attack: sneak attack damage increase, with another branch allowing a variety of status effects to be inflicted maybe capping off with the death attack thing

bypass: hide/move silently on one branch, and spot/listen style stuf on another.

and Tools: using poisons etc along with lockpick and disable device on one branch, and UMD on the other.

so say a hypothetical character with 18 dexterity would have two free abiliteis to place on this or any other class that was dex based ability tree, as well as his one/two "purchases" per level that could be bought on any tree, regardless of score.

or maybe just make one very large tree for each attribute, ignoring the old style classes entirely.

sorry for such a long post, but it sounds like this system might work for what you have in mind. also sorry that its very rough, but it literally just occured t me while i was browsing this thread :smallsmile:

SamBurke

2012-05-11, 03:09 PM

I like the idea a lot, actually, and I think it could work pretty well.

Question is, how much should the idea of the classes be expanded on?

zegram 33

2012-05-11, 03:37 PM

my theory was, not at all.
if you ever played the fairly new kingdoms of amalur (vidoe) game, theory was to have it work somewhat like that. (as is probably apparent, im more of a video game nerd than a tabletop game nerd, but i stumbled across the comic and then kinda branched out :smallwink:)
the idea being, rather than linking them to a class at all, you come up with (again) a word or paragraph that sums up that classes playstyle.
so rogue could be "stealth" or "finesse" or "infiltration"
say, a paladin would have "sentinel and have tree's focusing on there mount, on there defense and leadership abilities, and then on smiteing evil progression, or some such thing.

since the entire point is that each characters "class" becomes a fluid thing unique to THAT character, you could kinda de-emphasise each clase as a "class" so whereas in the normal system you often seem locked into a certain class or one of its X prc's, here you can shop around and really go wild with your own class, or alternativley make a by the book class focussing on just one tree.
so the actual "fluff" of the classes gets largely ignored in favour of building up a characters abilities, and the actual fluff, background, roleplaying, and all that is dealt with by the pretty comprehensive system youve already drafted up.

i dunno about you, but iv always disliked the way a lot of classes come with preset motivations or backgrounds for your character.

dunno how much of that rant made sense, but yeh

Milo v3

2012-05-11, 04:55 PM

I currently making a magic system which might fit this better than the Vatican style.

It isn't finished and it might need some tweaking but it should work well once I have finished it.

Here is a link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240955)

toapat

2012-05-11, 05:19 PM

I like the idea a lot, actually, and I think it could work pretty well.

Question is, how much should the idea of the classes be expanded on?

not alot, as there arent many chassis you truely need.

Generic Classes:

Casters:
Skills: 14
Good Saves 1
Spell level cap 6-7
Half BAB
lets say 4ish Bonus Feats
2-3 class abilities

Melee
Skills 8 or 24
Good Saves: 1
Full or 3/4 BAB
8 bonus Feats
2 class abilities

Gish
Skills 6
Good saves 2
3/4 Bab
Spell level cap of 3-4
10 bonus feats
5 class features

Note: Psionic replaces Spell level for Casters and Gish if chosen.

other ways to balance spellcasters: Wordcasting (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Wordcasting_(3.5e_Variant_Rule))

the reason why levels still are required is because Leveling still is kinda required to understand what is going on. Abstraction only works so far, and you eventually just get a lensman arms race

Chronologist

2012-05-11, 09:13 PM

Here's a rough outline of what I have so far for classes.

Characters start with, say, 20 points, and the d4 hd/low bab etc I outlined before. Each of the following costs points:

+1 hit die bump (max d12): 1 point
+2 skill points (max 8 + Int): 1 point
+1 BAB: 3 points
+1 to a saving throw: 2 points
Class feature: 3 points per level the class feature can be gained at (ex: Evasion costs 6 points)
2 level 1 spells known: 1 point
+3 spell points: 1 points

My idea is that at every level after 1st, you gain 15 points + (5 x your level) points. It's not perfect, it's not tested, but it's a start.

Example: Pathfinder Fighter
d10 hit dice: 3
2+Int skill points: 0
+1 BAB: 3
+2 Fortitude: 2
Bonus Feat: 3 (pretty good at low levels, honestly)
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Probably about 6 points (light, medium, heavy, simple, martial, light +medium shields, tower shields)
Total: 17 points. Slightly underpowered. Maybe give an extra class feature, or better Reflex saves, or very minor casting ability.

I haven't clocked the Wizard but I expect they'll also be a bit shy under 20 points. Perhaps reduce to 15 points at 1st level, then 20, 25, etc.

SamBurke

2012-05-12, 12:22 AM

So far that sounds about right; I was hoping for a more character-based model.

I'm not entirely tied to the whole "words" thing, BUT, even if it may make less sense, it does ground the game in the IC descriptions.

That said, Milo, Topoat, I like those systems. Milo, I'm almost certain I've seen that before. In fact, I'm in a game with similar methods used: it works really, really, well.

Chrono, that system works about right. I'll try and edit it into the OP or the second post pretty soon here.

Milo v3

2012-05-12, 12:26 AM

That said, Milo, Topoat, I like those systems. Milo, I'm almost certain I've seen that before. In fact, I'm in a game with similar methods used: it works really, really, well.

Its based off Talislanta's magic system so that might be the game your refering to. But I'm adding in new stuff like teleporting, time manipulation and making it work in 3.5e.

SamBurke

2012-05-12, 12:28 AM

Its based off Talislanta's magic system so that might be the game your refering to. But I'm adding in new stuff like teleporting, time manipulation and making it work in 3.5e.

OK, that's why it's familiar. I love Talislanta's, and i think that's a fantastic adaptation. Adding teleportation was a nice touch.

Milo v3

2012-05-12, 01:11 AM

OK, that's why it's familiar. I love Talislanta's, and i think that's a fantastic adaptation. Adding teleportation was a nice touch.

Thanks. :smallsmile:

Also could I ask you something?

I'm adding in some of the things you couldn't do in Talislanta as the Forbidden School. They are effectively epic spells.

I was going to make one for every "School".

Here is what I got so far:
Conjuration - Create Life
Destruction - Damage Souls
Divination - ?
Enchantment - ?
Illusion - ?
Manipulate - ?
Motion - Time Manipulation
Transmutation - Bringing back the dead
Ward - ?

Do you have any ideas for the others?

I hope I'm not derailing your thread...

SamBurke

2012-05-12, 01:20 AM

Here is what I got so far:
Conjuration - Create Life
Destruction - Damage Souls
Divination - Discern Knowledge
Enchantment - Alter a Person's Mind
Illusion - Create a False Sensation
Manipulate - Altering an object
Motion - Time Manipulation
Necromancy - Bringing back the dead
Transmutation - Altering a Person's Body
Ward - Create Protection

Do you have any ideas for the others?

I hope I'm not derailing your thread...

How's that?

Milo v3

2012-05-12, 01:43 AM

How's that?

Those are more the general effects of the different schools, except for divination which I'll add in when I upload it.

SuperPanda

2012-05-12, 05:41 AM

Check out: http://www.easydamus.com/Custom_Characters.pdf

It was based on DnD 3.X but that adapts to Pathfinder pretty well. To do this in the way you wanted to you might need the player to describe their character for the DM and the DM to do the "crunch" of making the character.

The rule-set also would be in need of expansion into the odder classes that players might want to include.

Chronologist

2012-05-12, 08:00 AM

SuperPanda, it's a pretty comprehensive method of rating special abilities of classes, but my only gripe is that all abilities of the same level are considered equal. For example, Animal Companion and a Fighter Bonus Feat have the same general requirements.

Nevertheless, it's a very good method of determining character power, way beyond the rough idea I posted. IF we could somehow incorporate the magic system of Talislanta then I think we'd be just about done.

Milo v3

2012-05-12, 08:24 AM

Nevertheless, it's a very good method of determining character power, way beyond the rough idea I posted. IF we could somehow incorporate the magic system of Talislanta then I think we'd be just about done.

Make it so that gaining an Order Feat counts as a class feature rather than a feat which you have to spend points on.

How the schools work would depend on how the skill system works.

SuperPanda

2012-05-12, 09:18 AM

I had to give the idea of the system some time to sink in for things like animal companion as well.

I think the way it works for that, and spell casting/sneak attack/and similar things is this.

Animal Companion ability (as a level 1 druid) / Fighter Bonus feat (as a level 1 fighter) = same xp cost.

Animal companion ability (as a 4th level druid) / Weapon Specialization (Same xp cost).

The animal companion doesn't advance without "buying" druid levels. Abilities with a specific "Fighter level" pre-req need advancing in Fighter levels (or need a DM to house-rule the feat to now have a Base Attack Bonus pre-req instead).

----------------------

As far as the spell casting you wanted, I'm not familiar with the system you mentioned and I can't find an SRD for it with my limited google fu, so I can't help much there. Maybe you could send me a link (if there is one) and we can work together to rejigger things a bit.

young_genuis

2012-05-21, 05:38 PM

It works it really works.
I tried it out on a newbie and it works. He understands ability's now but still needs help on every thing else:yuk:.

SamBurke

2012-05-21, 07:44 PM

http://beastkong.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/success-baby.jpg

Epic!

What else does he need help with? I can work on that next if thou desirest.

Also, I need to start editing things into the first post.

Derp me.

Out of curiosity, could you tell us more of what worked and what more needs to be added?

toapat

2012-05-21, 08:14 PM

Also, I need to start editing things into the first post.

like my table?

also, forum rules highly suggest that you /spoiler that image

SamBurke

2012-05-21, 09:01 PM

toapat

2012-05-21, 11:45 PM

OK, then. New table up, summarizing the first post. After this, we delve into the character archetypes, also known as classes.

I think we could use more adjectives, don't you? If you have suggestions or ways to improve, let's get it put in: we need to show all sides of the various attributes.

you put a number of adjectives into multiple different tiers of the modifiers, Wise and sage both showing up at +3 and +4 of wisdom for instance

asto stats being depthy:
the only attribute that has multiple meaning is Dexterity, being both agility and physical self-control
STR is your ability to move loads and apply force
Con is your ability to take a hit
Int is your knowledge
Wisdom is your common sence
Charisma is your will

SamBurke

2012-05-21, 11:59 PM

Charisma is also how you affect people.

Oh, and how well you perform at random whatnot.

Fixed Wise.

Amechra

2012-05-22, 12:23 AM

Reading through this thread gave me even more insight into the perfection of Risus; it is perfectly possible to run a game where everything has a Progressive Start (including the setting, all enemies, and every single NPC), without having the game be bogged down for more than a couple seconds.

And did I mention the fact that in Risus, you can literally write a semi-decent adventure... on just your fingers?

Sorry for the fanboyism, its just that, well, I have been having to look into what makes that game tick...

Back to doing this with DnD... it isn't worth it. Pick up the Mutants and Masterminds ruleset if you want some idea of how to price things, though.

reddir

2012-05-22, 01:21 AM

SamBurke

2012-05-22, 02:02 PM

I really like that new chart.

Even for someone with a sufficient understanding re attribute scores, seeing the adjectives like that brought home to me what my characters are like.

That one chart has given me a many ideas for rp'ing my characters. Thank you!

You're welcome! That is PRECISELY what this is designed to do: deepen immersion (see title), and create a much more interesting, sensible character.

I'll be working on basic class structure as we speak.

Othniel Edden

2012-05-23, 04:32 PM

If you have a sheet of paper on which you are going to write your character's information, isn't that a character sheet?[/pedant]
More of a characterizing sheet. *beat*

SamBurke

2012-05-24, 03:50 PM

You're welcome! That is PRECISELY what this is designed to do: deepen immersion (see title), and create a much more interesting, sensible character.

I'll be working on basic class structure as we speak.

Aaaaaaaaand due to some major comm issues (this is an iPod post), the class update will be a while.

young_genuis

2012-05-26, 03:16 PM

young_genuis

2012-05-26, 03:22 PM

I also appreciate the new table

SamBurke

2012-05-26, 06:18 PM

Okay. So the thing/words that confused them were:Anemic, Sociopathic and, Beguiling. The rolling thing he did not like, he wanted to keep all four of his dice rolls. As for the rest I need help on teaching.

Wait, rolling...? Where did he start rolling?

Also, see my location: I'm having a ton of issues with internet and my computer. Things may be further delayed.

young_genuis

2012-05-27, 08:17 PM

I had two hours so I got him getting stats ready for when I teach him classes

Milo v3

2012-05-27, 08:25 PM

I had two hours so I got him getting stats ready for when I teach him classes

You don't roll for stats it uses points...

young_genuis

2012-05-30, 12:14 PM

Hey the DM can do it whatever way he wants to

SamBurke

2012-05-31, 10:18 AM

Hey the DM can do it whatever way he wants to

That is true. Just a suggestion.

In other news, see my location. Life uppercutted me pretty hard, as it seems to like to do. I'll be back to normal within a day or two though.

young_genuis

2012-05-31, 01:27 PM

Yeah I am pretty limited on the computer but I can get to books and paper easy

SamBurke

2012-06-01, 02:55 PM

Ok, then. Posted the Chassis. I need to edit a bit, but it's up.

Peach!

Milo v3

2012-06-01, 07:07 PM

SamBurke

2012-06-01, 11:55 PM

I really like the chasis. It allows so much more freedom than 3.5e with the simple addition of average saves rather than poor and good. It does make mages more powerful though

For example say I wanted to make a mage with this system so far it would look like this:
Average Strength (10)(5), Precognizant (18)(1), Average Con (10)(1), Intellectual (18)(-3), Foolish (8)(-2), Antisocial (6)(0)
Average Reflexes, Unhealthy, Determined, Average Attack.

This looks rather anime style in that he can cast spells, and moves amazingly fast. I would likely be a ranged caster from this, probably using crossbows.

When it comes to ability scores this system benefits those who specialize, granting big gain for a small number of average scores.

Looks good so far. But it looks like the characters are going to be much stronger than normal.

I actually have a counter to this: Spells are gonna be freakin expensive.

I Mean, painfullllly expensive. To get full casting the way you can now, you'll have to save at least half your points, putting you firmly in the "terrible saves" zone.

The purpose of the system is really to encourage people to take story-based penalties. Why is the character Gruff, for example? Or Rash? Those are serious handicaps, but they add a lot of depth, too.

Milo v3

2012-06-02, 12:56 AM

I actually have a counter to this: Spells are gonna be freakin expensive.

I Mean, painfullllly expensive. To get full casting the way you can now, you'll have to save at least half your points, putting you firmly in the "terrible saves" zone.
I think that there should be some way on having average BAB and Saves even with spells. Like if you want as much diversity as a wizard your going to get severely penalized, but if you only have a tiny number of crossbow themed spells then I it shouldn't take too much of a penalty.

Scowling Dragon

2012-06-02, 01:19 AM

Classless systems aren't as exiting to level up and are much easier to min max.

Thats just me though.

toapat

2012-06-02, 11:57 AM

I think that there should be some way on having average BAB and Saves even with spells. Like if you want as much diversity as a wizard your going to get severely penalized, but if you only have a tiny number of crossbow themed spells then I it shouldn't take too much of a penalty.

basically, what needs to be done with spellcasting, is dividing it up into mage specializations, taking pages from storytelling of both sides of the genre in order to build up the systems right

for instance:
Energy mage (Sonic, Electric, and Fire spells)
Geomancer (Earth and Water spells)
Illusionist
Diviner
Necromancer (animation and cure/repair/inflict spells)
White Mage (Healing and partybuffs)

SamBurke

2012-06-02, 12:09 PM

I think that there should be some way on having average BAB and Saves even with spells. Like if you want as much diversity as a wizard your going to get severely penalized, but if you only have a tiny number of crossbow themed spells then I it shouldn't take too much of a penalty.

It'll definitely be possible: if you don't get too many spells, or if you use a slower progression, you can get average saves with ease.

Also, I do like the idea of specializations, Topoat. The problem is making Ice Spells and such useful without completely re-writing the know spell lists.

toapat

2012-06-03, 11:35 AM

It'll definitely be possible: if you don't get too many spells, or if you use a slower progression, you can get average saves with ease.

Also, I do like the idea of specializations, Topoat. The problem is making Ice Spells and such useful without completely re-writing the know spell lists.

Specialization using the prebuilt framework of the spell schools in DnD doesnt work, even with the more typical distribution of other itterations of the system.
the 6 elements conflicts with more typical magic descriptions, creating an even larger headach.

nhbdy

2012-06-03, 03:17 PM

I actually have a counter to this: Spells are gonna be freakin expensive.

I Mean, painfullllly expensive. To get full casting the way you can now, you'll have to save at least half your points, putting you firmly in the "terrible saves" zone.

I take issue with this, my wizard who has spent his entire life learning to bend the fabric of reality through basically theory, thought and willpower is stuck in the "terrible saves" zone and is thus weak willed? Also as others have pointed out, I think there should be a way to diversify more limited casting, for beguiler type characters and some forms of gish...

SamBurke

2012-06-04, 09:15 AM

I take issue with this, my wizard who has spent his entire life learning to bend the fabric of reality through basically theory, thought and willpower is stuck in the "terrible saves" zone and is thus weak willed? Also as others have pointed out, I think there should be a way to diversify more limited casting, for beguiler type characters and some forms of gish...

Bending reality *does* tend to leave one a little power hungry. I'd see a lot of arguments for being weak willed at that point, yes.

Besides that, there will most certainly be support for all dishes, and more beguiling folks. Higher saves just preclude the two-a-level full-spell-list choices of the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid. Druid will literally be impossible with this system, as they simply get too many goodies.

Specialization would be nice, but I'm not sure if I'll manage to work it in. For now, we'll go more vanilla.

young_genuis

2012-06-04, 12:21 PM

Yeah. We need that other stuff. Since I am usually a Ranger, Scout, or Physic Warrior. How will those work out. Or more importantly how will Psionics work?

SamBurke

2012-06-04, 12:53 PM

Yeah. We need that other stuff. Since I am usually a Ranger, Scout, or Physic Warrior. How will those work out. Or more importantly how will Psionics work?

I did not even think of psionics. That'll have to be an expansion on the main idea, I suppose.

Do you all think I need to actually put out what the Fast/Medium/Slow progressions are...?

toapat

2012-06-04, 12:54 PM

naw, just stick a link to this awesome table generator (http://pifro.com/dnd/NEW/)

SamBurke

2012-06-04, 01:01 PM

naw, just stick a link to this awesome table generator (http://pifro.com/dnd/NEW/)

Why did I never think of that? OPs to be updated.

young_genuis

2012-06-04, 01:28 PM

That is a awesome link

Snowfire

2012-06-04, 02:04 PM

I actually have a counter to this: Spells are gonna be freakin expensive.

I Mean, painfullllly expensive. To get full casting the way you can now, you'll have to save at least half your points, putting you firmly in the "terrible saves" zone.

So basically sort of like Shadowrun 2nd ed. If you want to be a mage with good spells, you're going to be an xp black hole. I like it.

SamBurke

2012-06-04, 02:16 PM

So basically sort of like Shadowrun 2nd ed. If you want to be a mage with good spells, you're going to be an xp black hole. I like it.

Preeeeecisely. The fluff helps that: a mage locked away in a tower, continually slaving away to discover new techniques, or master the known ones.

young_genuis

2012-06-18, 02:01 PM

Wow. It got really slow.

young_genuis

2012-06-19, 01:45 PM

Wow. It got really slow.

young_genuis

2012-06-20, 09:57 AM

It Got slow Fast

SamBurke

2012-06-27, 12:26 AM

Yeah. See my sig.

This will be... the fourth? Fifth? time life has forced me away from these beloved forums.

Life is a flank hole that way.

Realms of Chaos

2012-07-10, 09:06 AM

Hmmmm... something just occurred to me. If you want to do this in a particularly immersive way, why not approach the problem like a madlib, giving different options in each blank. For example:

Hello, my name is ______________(name). I am a(n) young/adult/middle-age/old/venerable ____________(race) and it is nice to meet you. My hair is ______________, my eyes are __________________, and my skin is ___________________. I am __'___'' tall and I weight _____ lbs. I worship __________. I am (a [bit]) sickly/fragile/wimpy/average/sturdy/buff/tough/juggernaut so far as my endurance is concerned and I have the strength of a mouse/child/weakling/average human/laborer/warrior/ox/giant. My movements seem crippled/clumsy/slow/average/quick/graceful/alacritous/precognizant. I have the mind of a(n) newt/idiot/child/average human/merchant/scholar/professor/genius and my wit can be described as dim/rash/impulsive/average/rational/shrewd/wise/enlightened. When dealing with others, I am pretty sociopathic/antisocial/gruff/average/friendly/charming/influential/beguiling. Using (insert list of "power sources" here), I act to (insert list of "jobs" here). When forced into the fray, I fight using my ___________________(weapon) and I wear no/light/medium/heavy armor. I also carry __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________ on my person at most times. My particular talents outside of combat include _________________________________________________ (list of skills).

The idea of the above is that a certain combination of a power source and job would indicate your class. While this obviously works far better in 4e, it works to a certain extent in 3.5 if you restrict the possibilities to those that exist (such arcane power/warrior for duskblade or divine power/warrior for paladin).

Milo v3

2012-07-10, 09:37 AM

SamBurke

2012-07-10, 12:26 PM

That moment when you realize the server has deleted your subscription to your own pet project.

I do like that quite a bit... perhaps the beginning of a game session could be conducted as an RP'd interview. "So, Mr.... Awesome Mc.Badass, is it?"

"Yes."

"Great. How strong would you say you are...?"

I think those'll both be included as optional exercises.

SamBurke

2012-07-10, 12:59 PM

Just updated and added those two ideas. Whatchu think?

Milo v3

2012-07-10, 06:54 PM

Just updated and added those two ideas. Whatchu think?

I like that bioware style suggestion. :smalltongue:
Any news on how the class features are going to work.

SamBurke

2012-07-18, 08:21 PM

Alright, another update! You'll see that the class skills do not have the normal descriptions, save one.

The reason being is that it didn't look quite right. I mean, most of those are pretty obvious. What are you going to do when you use Bluff? Make a lie and convince someone of it. IE, BLUFF.

So, I'm gonna ask you guys, lurkers and regulars alike, what makes sense from a story perspective? Because every step should deepen immersion. How do you see skills doing that?

toapat

2012-07-18, 08:35 PM

{table=head=Skills] Description | Skill | Point Cost
Tumbling, Leaping, Parkour | Acrobatics| 2
"I know a guy for that"| Appraise| 1
"You know, the knockoffs look more realistic then the actual Holy Grail"| Bluff| 3
"Ook"| Climb| 1
"Look, this war has cost your kingdom hundreds of thousands of platnium, take the deal, its not like you can afford to keep your millitary at field much longer."| Diplomacy| 5
"Ok, red wire is live, blue wire is ground, or is it the other way?"| Disable Device| 1
"Why hello my dear, I was oh so fortunate to be in the county only to stumble upon your divinity"| Disguise| 1
*Batman cut*| Escape Artist| 1
9| Fly| 1
10| Handle Animal| 1
"Come on, stay with me Jim."| Heal| 1
"There are a thousand ways i could kill you right now, and 946 of them hurt."| Intimidate| 3
13| Know: Arcana| 2
14| Know: Dungeoneering| 1
15| Know: Engineering| 1
16| Know: Geography| 1
17| Know: History| 1
18| Know: Local| 3
19| Know: Nature| 3
20| Know: Nobility| 1
21| Know: Planes| 3
22| Know: Religion| 3
"Ok, so the Orcish word for candy is the Common word for child, I wonder why that is? Oh, right."| Linguistics| 1
"Hmm, something flashed in those shadows"| Perception| 0
"So, this one time i got in a staring contest with a Basilisk."| Perform| 1
*Clang**Clang**Clang**Hisss*"Ok, heres your Excalibur"| Profession| 0
27| Ride| 1
"I know that you know that i know that you know that i know..."| Sense Motive| 2
"What Maguffin?"| Sleight of Hand| 1
30| Spellcraft| 3
"Hes behind me isnt he."| Stealth| 3
"Ok, Purple is poisonous... You just drank it, didnt you."| Survival| 2
33| Swim| 1
"Ooh, what does this button do?" *Explode*| Use Magical Device| 4
[/table]

SamBurke

2012-07-19, 03:17 PM

I like that quite a bit... I'll expand that, and put it in the extras section.

EDIT: It's in the Extras post. Thanks!

What do you think about the point values, by the by?

toapat

2012-07-19, 04:37 PM

SamBurke

2012-07-20, 12:09 AM

you made a few mistakes with the translation of my chart to the extras post, Climb's Quote was "Ook" as in the sound a primate makes.

and it wasnt "Batman!" it was *Batman Cut*, a Batman cut is when you look at a person, look away, then look back, and the person is just gone.

As to point costs, the 4/5 (you are missing Rich's Persuasion) social skills are all priced differently, despite their relative value to each other, while Perform, Spellcraft, Perception, and Disable Device are all underpriced, despite being ability critical skills.

Linguistics should not be used in place of Decipher script, Forgery, Speak Language, and Literacy, of all of the skillchanges of Pathfinder, that was definitively Stupid.

Escape artist is part of Acrobatics, you have no Jump skill.

Graph'll be fixed.

When you say that the skills are priced differently, which do you mean? Which ones should be up or down?

Perform/Spellcraft *used* to be critical skills. I'm remaking classes, too, so that may be changed. As to Perception, I believe that every class should have that: being a warrior doesn't mean you're blind and deaf.

As to Linguistics, it's much handier to have just one skill for all that... considering how likely they'll come up, it's pretty much safe.

Escape artist will go under Acro, as Jump already has.

toapat

2012-07-20, 12:33 AM

Graph'll be fixed.

When you say that the skills are priced differently, which do you mean? Which ones should be up or down?

Perform/Spellcraft *used* to be critical skills. I'm remaking classes, too, so that may be changed. As to Perception, I believe that every class should have that: being a warrior doesn't mean you're blind and deaf.

As to Linguistics, it's much handier to have just one skill for all that... considering how likely they'll come up, it's pretty much safe.

Escape artist will go under Acro, as Jump already has.

Internal balance wise? im not sure what the prices of Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy/Persuasion/Sense motive should be, but i do know they should be equally weighted, which they are not. restoring Innuendo* from 3rd ed would also be a good option here.

The problem with Perception being cheap is that Perception is half of Trapfinding, Disable device is alot better because it is Disable Device+Open Lock+Repair

Perform depends on how you rework Bardic songs, Spellcraft/Psicraft is a common feat prerequisite.

Linguistics itself is wrongly used terminology, as the only linguistics skill in the set of 4 it combined in PF is Decipher script, and it is the only skill i can think of that contains it's own opposed check. I would move Forgery into Disguise, considering their relevance to eachother.

Jump (Str) is not Acrobatics (Dex), it is Athletics (Str), as in, Jump (Str), Climb (Str), and Swim (Str). The groups were devised by relevant physical skill.

Innuendo from 3rd ed:
Innuendo (Wis): You know how to give and understand secret messages while appearing to be speaking about other things.
Check: DC 10 for a simple message, DC 15 or 20 for complex messages. Listening in requires a DC of (Base DC)+2 for each piece of information unknown.

Failures: Failure<5: You listen in but gather no information
Failure=/>5: You listen in but infer or assume inaccurate information.

Synergies: 5 Ranks in bluff grant a +2 bonus on your Innuendo check when communicating, 5 Ranks of Sense Motive grant a +2 bonus on your Innuendo check when Listening in or receiving a message.

SamBurke

2012-07-20, 12:54 AM

Internal balance wise? im not sure what the prices of Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy/Persuasion/Sense motive should be, but i do know they should be equally weighted, which they are not. restoring Innuendo* from 3rd ed would also be a good option here.
I didn't want to place them equally: some of them are more overpowered. For example, Diplomacy can be used to solve half of all encounters without fighting. It is, by far, the most valuable skill on the list. Intimidate and Bluff are useful as well, but less so, because of less application. Sense motive is one that I require my players to use quite a bit, but is much less common in other games.

The problem with Perception being cheap is that Perception is half of Trapfinding, Disable device is alot better because it is Disable Device+Open Lock+Repair
I'll keep that as a note for writing trap finding. That said, I don't think it'll be too much of a harm to give rogues a buff to something they don't use all too often. Disable device is absolutely not better, though. Perception is the only skill that can even come close to Diplomacy in its usefulness, and, probably passes it. Disable Device is usually pretty situational.

Perform depends on how you rework Bardic songs, Spellcraft/Psicraft is a common feat prerequisite.
True. I'll raise the numbers for Spellcraft.

Linguistics itself is wrongly used terminology, as the only linguistics skill in the set of 4 it combined in PF is Decipher script, and it is the only skill i can think of that contains it's own opposed check. I would move Forgery into Disguise, considering their relevance to eachother.
That is a sad fault of it. However, I doubt the Linguistics skill, lumped together in that odd bundle as it is, will come up in 1/10th of sessions: thus meaning it's not a good idea to even further lessen its usefulness.

Jump (Str) is not Acrobatics (Dex), it is Athletics (Str), as in, Jump (Str), Climb (Str), and Swim (Str). The groups were devised by relevant physical skill.
It might be a good idea to lump them together, with the only thing being this: for a Jumping check, you can use EITHER Acro OR Athletics.

Innuendo from 3rd ed:
Innuendo (Wis): You know how to give and understand secret messages while appearing to be speaking about other things.
Check: DC 10 for a simple message, DC 15 or 20 for complex messages. Listening in requires a DC of (Base DC)+2 for each piece of information unknown.

Failures: Failure<5: You listen in but gather no information
Failure=/>5: You listen in but infer or assume inaccurate information.

Synergies: 5 Ranks in bluff grant a +2 bonus on your Innuendo check when communicating, 5 Ranks of Sense Motive grant a +2 bonus on your Innuendo check when Listening in or receiving a message.

While I think that's a great thing, I don't know how useful it would be... seems like a subset of Bluff. Besides that, for a character to make it useful, everyone he talks to would have to have that skill. Though, of course, it could be a basic free skill...

TheWombatOfDoom

2012-07-20, 09:22 AM

Yo! DM! I heard you like immersion so I put games in your game so you can play while you're playing!

Intimidate really grinds my gears. Imo it should not be the same stat as diplomacy, otherwise the difference between the two is flavor. If that's the only difference, they should be amalgomated. But I don't want them to be. Grah. Someday I'll homebrew that. I'll add that to my to do list. -_-

I like the things you're doing with skills. It's good to put a lot of focus on how to make them more immersive because skill rolls make up a large percentage of the game. Much more than attacks or saves.

toapat

2012-07-20, 11:07 AM

That is a sad fault of it. However, I doubt the Linguistics skill, lumped together in that odd bundle as it is, will come up in 1/10th of sessions: thus meaning it's not a good idea to even further lessen its usefulness.

While I think that's a great thing, I don't know how useful it would be... seems like a subset of Bluff. Besides that, for a character to make it useful, everyone he talks to would have to have that skill. Though, of course, it could be a basic free skill...

What i meant about Diable Device is under PF rules, it doesnt screw over the rogue because although in 3.5 they could glare a 47 layer Pneumatic-Arcane-Psionic lock open, they can look at a simple clockwork spike trap and not understand at all how to disable it because Open lock and Disable Device are separate skills that never really made sense as to why they were separate.

Linguistics, if it was built from Decipher Script, Innuendo, and Sense Motive, could be used. The resaon i think they made Linguistics the way they did in PF was because they were 4 skills that rarely saw use because it takes more effort to leave multiple trails of false clues the characters have to work out, but cant because the Wizard, for all his Arcane Might, can only read Common and Dragonic, and the Rogue specialized in Infultration when they were with the Theives' guild, not Appraisal.

I can kinda get why Forgery is combined with Decipher Script, but that comes closer to a high level Perception+Survival check.

SamBurke

2012-07-20, 01:09 PM

Intimidate really grinds my gears. Imo it should not be the same stat as diplomacy, otherwise the difference between the two is flavor. If that's the only difference, they should be amalgomated. But I don't want them to be. Grah. Someday I'll homebrew that. I'll add that to my to do list. -_-

I do feel your pain, man. But, here's the thing: I think I understand *why* WotC and Paizo did it. Not for the mechanics-side, but for the classes. If you've got a barbarian who's going to chop off someone's head, they shouldn't be able to put points in better scaring people *AND* simultaneously, because of that, be better able to attend a high tea. The two skills are separated because the two people using them are going to be vastly different.

I think I'll put it as (Cha + Str), because that makes more sense.

I like the things you're doing with skills. It's good to put a lot of focus on how to make them more immersive because skill rolls make up a large percentage of the game. Much more than attacks or saves.

Thanks! I did my best to help the players build a backstory, and/or a more deep character. Any critiques?

TheWombatOfDoom

2012-07-20, 01:22 PM

Any critiques?

Not as of now. I'll continue to lurk and speak up should I think of anything.

SamBurke

2012-07-20, 01:26 PM

Not as of now. I'll continue to lurk and speak up should I think of anything.

Lurk on, friend!

TheWombatOfDoom

2012-07-24, 10:31 AM

SamBurke

2012-07-24, 02:01 PM

On thing I've found with immersion and abilities is playing your character in the non physical ways. As in Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom.

With the physical abilities, it's all immersion. You as a player aren't physically moving some large boulder, or taking aim at that messenger pigeon, and so it's easily immersible. However, playing a stupid character when you are quite intelligent as a player, does not mesh as nicely. In real life, you might come up with an amazing plan for combat that your character would not be able to comprehend or create. Additionally, you might not be very good at saying speeches, but you're character's charisma might be wonderful! Often in roleplaying, saying "my character says a mystifying speech to convince the king of joining our cause" is frowned upon, and the very opposite of immersion. So. How do you counteract this in immersion? One option is to create a character who's stats are similar to yours in these areas. However, that also clashes with some of the novelty of roleplaying - being someone else who doesn't have your limitations. Or has different limitations.

Thoughts?

Oh ho!

Yes, as usual, I have an opinion, and perhaps an idea. See, it's all in the way I handle XP gain. You don't get as much XP from monsters. The main way you get it is when you stay true to your character: when you do something that your character would do (say, an olympic feat of strength for our Awesome McBadass, or being noticeably gruff, or recalling his days from the war, etc, etc), you get XP for it. Immersion: done. People are given a reason to act things out IC: they get loot for it. They're given a reason to stay in character: they get XP for it. And, I figure that's most of the reward needed.

I'm trying to think of a way for the GMs to make it less... subjective.

TheWombatOfDoom

2012-07-24, 03:14 PM

I'm trying to think of a way for the GMs to make it less... subjective.

That's the trick, isn't it? I do similar things, but sometimes it's difficult.

Yitzi

2012-07-24, 11:03 PM

On thing I've found with immersion and abilities is playing your character in the non physical ways. As in Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom.

With the physical abilities, it's all immersion. You as a player aren't physically moving some large boulder, or taking aim at that messenger pigeon, and so it's easily immersible. However, playing a stupid character when you are quite intelligent as a player, does not mesh as nicely. In real life, you might come up with an amazing plan for combat that your character would not be able to comprehend or create. Additionally, you might not be very good at saying speeches, but you're character's charisma might be wonderful! Often in roleplaying, saying "my character says a mystifying speech to convince the king of joining our cause" is frowned upon, and the very opposite of immersion. So. How do you counteract this in immersion? One option is to create a character who's stats are similar to yours in these areas. However, that also clashes with some of the novelty of roleplaying - being someone else who doesn't have your limitations. Or has different limitations.

Thoughts?

For Wisdom, the DM can draw the character's attention to something relevant (if he has a high WIS and the player doesn't), or omit it entirely (if the character has a low WIS and the player is good at noticing things.)

Charisma is surprisingly easy, as it doesn't indicate learned skill so much as presence and likeability. So a character with high CHA might still make a clumsy speech, but he'll clearly mean every word in such a way that it gets the desired response despite its clumsiness. (Someone with good Diplomacy and no speechwriting ability is more of a problem; the DM may have to give the player some tips "behind the scenes", at least until he gets the hang of it due to playing a character with good Diplomacy.)

Intelligence is the hardest. No real idea how to help with that.

Gnomish Wanderer

2012-07-25, 07:13 PM

On thing I've found with immersion and abilities is playing your character in the non physical ways. As in Charisma, Intelligence and Wisdom.

With the physical abilities, it's all immersion. You as a player aren't physically moving some large boulder, or taking aim at that messenger pigeon, and so it's easily immersible. However, playing a stupid character when you are quite intelligent as a player, does not mesh as nicely. In real life, you might come up with an amazing plan for combat that your character would not be able to comprehend or create. Additionally, you might not be very good at saying speeches, but you're character's charisma might be wonderful! Often in roleplaying, saying "my character says a mystifying speech to convince the king of joining our cause" is frowned upon, and the very opposite of immersion. So. How do you counteract this in immersion? One option is to create a character who's stats are similar to yours in these areas. However, that also clashes with some of the novelty of roleplaying - being someone else who doesn't have your limitations. Or has different limitations.

Thoughts?

I think it's far easier to downplay a mental ability than to play it up. Playing a low intelligence character is pretty easy, you just don't use your upper processing when figuring out what the character would do :smalltongue: That's why I can normally play a smart or charismatic character, but I'm kinda bad at playing a high Wis character becuase my own Wis, if scored, woudn't be nearly so high. But I agree, it meshes better for roleplaying if you keep the character in line with what you can portray, though a DM can smooth out the discrepancy somewhat.

SamBurke

2012-07-25, 11:39 PM

I think it's far easier to downplay a mental ability than to play it up. Playing a low intelligence character is pretty easy, you just don't use your upper processing when figuring out what the character would do :smalltongue: That's why I can normally play a smart or charismatic character, but I'm kinda bad at playing a high Wis character becuase my own Wis, if scored, woudn't be nearly so high. But I agree, it meshes better for roleplaying if you keep the character in line with what you can portray, though a DM can smooth out the discrepancy somewhat.

I have the same issue with Wisdom. That said, if I concentrate really hard, I can make it work. Usually, it involves a lot of situational and trope awareness, but if I have to roleplay it right, I have to roleplay it right.

Also, good to see you!

What do you think of the system as a whole? It's obviously not complete, but I'm working on an update to actually begin with that fearsome class system.

Gnomish Wanderer

2012-07-26, 02:13 AM

I have the same issue with Wisdom. That said, if I concentrate really hard, I can make it work. Usually, it involves a lot of situational and trope awareness, but if I have to roleplay it right, I have to roleplay it right.

Also, good to see you!

What do you think of the system as a whole? It's obviously not complete, but I'm working on an update to actually begin with that fearsome class system.

Thanks! Good to be here! :smalltongue:

I've been following along with your system, and I really like what I see. You've inspired me to start thinking about what I actually want from my system and try to figure out what it is that appeals to me about roleplaying systems in general. Your kind of system is definitely interesting in that regard. So thanks for that!

As for the system itself, I'm really interested so see how you're going to balance everything and how it's going to be set up. I can't really offer analytical feedback right now, but I can tell you good work so far! Keep it up!

SamBurke

2012-07-26, 03:31 AM

Thanks! Good to be here! :smalltongue:

I've been following along with your system, and I really like what I see. You've inspired me to start thinking about what I actually want from my system and try to figure out what it is that appeals to me about roleplaying systems in general. Your kind of system is definitely interesting in that regard. So thanks for that!

As for the system itself, I'm really interested so see how you're going to balance everything and how it's going to be set up. I can't really offer analytical feedback right now, but I can tell you good work so far! Keep it up!

Gonna have to kick myself into getting to the actual tough part.

Gahr.

SamBurke

2012-07-29, 04:34 AM

I've got the actual system idea "ironed out." That just means it's put in a constantly-updated document in a semi-usable form, ready to be torn to ragged pieces by an ever so eager group of designers.

Also, I just now realized how INCREDIBLY HUGE I've made the idea I've got. In light of that, I'm going to be releasing the main "Classes" -which are, of course, classless classes- in several individual updates, to allow my workload to spread a bit more evenly.

That said, I am doing pretty well thus far.

willpell

2012-07-29, 04:47 AM

I do feel your pain, man. But, here's the thing: I think I understand *why* WotC and Paizo did it. Not for the mechanics-side, but for the classes. If you've got a barbarian who's going to chop off someone's head, they shouldn't be able to put points in better scaring people *AND* simultaneously, because of that, be better able to attend a high tea. The two skills are separated because the two people using them are going to be vastly different.

But that's precisely what the existing game accomplishes, because Intimidate is based on Charisma, so a character who takes high Charisma is both diplomatic and intimidating. The skills may be separate, but the base modifier that powers them both at the low levels is the same, so it's impossible to build a character at level one who's really beautiful and lovely at making friends, without also making her at least somewhat able to terrify people. (Actually it can be done with homebrew Flaws or the like, but there's no strict-RAW way.)

I've heard that the Book of Erotic Fantasy introduced an "Appearance" stat to take some of the load off Charisma, and while I don't agree with the reason why they probably did it, I do think there's something to the idea of dividing the stat into two fields, perhaps with one of them leaning more toward Wisdom, representing how likeable you are and governing skills like Diplomacy and Perform and the spellcasting of Bards, while the other is a more aggressive "bending the world to your will" attribute that governs Sorcerer spellcasting, Bluff, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device. I have a character that was specifically built around exploiting all the synergies revolving around Charisma skills, whose name is an anagram of "Thomas Anderson" (Neo from The Matrix). Diluting this aspect of the game might make for a more realistic model of social roleplaying.

Milo v3

2012-07-29, 04:48 AM

Snowfire

2012-07-29, 04:50 AM

SamBurke

2012-07-29, 04:58 AM

Sounds good, can't wait for the classes.

Looking forward to see what you've done. It's all been great so far, let's see if you can do the big one.
I look away from my work for one minute to look something up (just guess what it was), and BOOOM! you guys. Thanks! I'm looking forward to putting up my first completed progression (classless class-like class) sometime this week.

But that's precisely what the existing game accomplishes, because Intimidate is based on Charisma, so a character who takes high Charisma is both diplomatic and intimidating. The skills may be separate, but the base modifier that powers them both at the low levels is the same, so it's impossible to build a character at level one who's really beautiful and lovely at making friends, without also making her at least somewhat able to terrify people. (Actually it can be done with homebrew Flaws or the like, but there's no strict-RAW way.)

I've heard that the Book of Erotic Fantasy introduced an "Appearance" stat to take some of the load off Charisma, and while I don't agree with the reason why they probably did it, I do think there's something to the idea of dividing the stat into two fields, perhaps with one of them leaning more toward Wisdom, representing how likeable you are and governing skills like Diplomacy and Perform and the spellcasting of Bards, while the other is a more aggressive "bending the world to your will" attribute that governs Sorcerer spellcasting, Bluff, Intimidate, and Use Magic Device. Diluting this aspect of the game might make for a more realistic model of social roleplaying.
This is a slightly more complicated question. Here's the thing: it's all about force of personality. So a sorc casts based on the very force of his own existence. Bards get people to notice them and listen to their song. Strong men and diplomats can force others to their will because their will is so powerfully present.

Second, I do have one small fix in place, which will be slightly altered to help with that. Check out the 2ndP for the new one.

SamBurke

2012-08-02, 01:10 PM

I had a lot of plans...

Aaaaaand they're gone.

Thankfully, I do have something for you guys to sink your teeth into: up in the 2OP is the point system for classes. I'll be starting with the martial side of things, one Destiny at a time, to make sure each one works.

Milo v3

2012-08-02, 05:46 PM

Does the DM have to create the Destinies or are you planning on adding in some examples?

SamBurke

2012-08-02, 05:59 PM

Does the DM have to create the Destinies or are you planning on adding in some examples?

I'll be writing up a number (hopefully about 20, if I can ever find the time) of Destinies, more than enough to do an entire campaign with. However, a tertiary goal of the system is to make it easy to homebrew in. So DMs adding their favorite home brew or making Destinies of their own should be easy.

SamBurke

2012-08-29, 12:25 PM

Hey folks, this is not dead!

I've been steadily making some changes, and absorbing several of the better Skill Fixes out there. In addition, I've been clarifying some of the language, making it better to read, and, oh...

ADDING DESSSSSSSTINIES!

Yup. Three of them are up so far, but they're a little bit in test mode, as most of it seems dangerously easy to Powergame.

Milo v3

2012-08-29, 09:53 PM

Reminds me a skyrim. :smallbiggrin:
I like the destinies though, and might make a few myself for the system. Probably a necromancer first.

Though I wonder why you made Heal part of Survival?

TheWombatOfDoom

2012-08-30, 09:18 AM

Oooh. With destinies we can fix wildshape by making it cost more to use, and even more to fully use, instead of nerfing it. Right?

SamBurke

2012-08-30, 10:13 AM

Reminds me a skyrim. :smallbiggrin:
I like the destinies though, and might make a few myself for the system. Probably a necromancer first.

Though I wonder why you made Heal part of Survival?

AHAHA! I take that as a high compliment, sir. And, indeed, I believe Skyrim's mechanics just make more sense, and are more interesting for creating a Character. I need to include one of the other hallmarks of the new system, which borrows the skill-leveling from that very game.

As to Healing and Survival, I thought of Boy Scouts. If you're out in the wilderness, alone, you're likely to be able to do some significant healing. I mean, it is kinda critical to Survival to, y'know, be alive and healthy and such, right? Besides, few enough people use Heal anyway...

Oooh. With destinies we can fix wildshape by making it cost more to use, and even more to fully use, instead of nerfing it. Right?
I'll probably end up making two versions: the full wildshape, which will be outrageously expensive (I'm thinking that it'll be at LEAST 4 or 6, and one of the most expensive abilities of the entire game). The other one will be a "choose a special ability" sort of thing, and much cheaper (probably only 2) for more utility purposes.

Thoughts on the Martial aspect of it? I'm looking for the things and playstyles that need to be included for this to work, and the sorts of things you think martial characters will want.

TheWombatOfDoom

2012-08-30, 10:24 AM

SamBurke

2012-08-30, 10:43 AM

OH MY GOD, didn't see the spoilers. That's...quite a lot of...things to choose from. I'm likeing the variety, but I'm getting a little ADD in the italics as the titles for each characteristic to choose from. Perhaps if you bolded them?

What about say, ranged combat? Such as shooting farther, shooting more, seeing farther, throwing things, so on.

Indeed, good sir. :biggrin: I had considered that already, as it seemed to place too much emphasis on the cost, and not enough on the actual names, which is the important part. As to the variety, I'm actually hoping to add a lot more, but for now, this should be enough to swamp people with a lot of choice, which is a good thing.

Design Goal: Make sure that people can choose any combination of all of these powers, and with intelligent or semi-intelligent play, have a useful and viable character.

I'd also like to to end world hunger.

BIG GOALS.

Ranged combat is coming along, though I do like those ideas for it! Thanks! I have three more Martial Destinies coming up, which may take up to a week each, more or less, and then I'll get to work on Skill Destinies.

SamBurke

2012-09-01, 12:14 AM

Made some MAJOR style revisions, switched thigns around, made it easier to read. Will continue to do so.

In addition, I've added a few new mechanics: Skill Advancement and Morality, specifically. Questions:

Skill Advancement: Is this balanced? What caveats need to be placed on it?

Morality: Do you think it works? Do you have some other keywords you could add?

In addition, I'd appreciate any critique on the actual combinations of Destinies.

radmelon

2012-09-01, 12:36 AM

Well, I looked at the morality section, specifically the keywords. Is that a reference to certain diminutive polychromatic equines I see? On that note, adding "Generosity" to good seems like a good idea. :smalltongue:

SamBurke

2012-09-01, 12:59 AM

Milo v3

2012-09-01, 02:57 AM

I'm rather confused about how the Morality works...

Also, how do skills work? It talks about d4's...

SamBurke

2012-09-01, 11:18 AM

I'm rather confused about how the Morality works...

Also, how do skills work? It talks about d4's...

Skills
Let's say you're at Spellcraft 5, with +4 to Intelligence and being invested in it. You make a Spellcraft roll to identify Invisibility being cast. After succeeding at the roll, you may now make a roll to advance the skill. It's DC6, if you will, since you're advancing to Spellcraft 6. Since you have a +4 to Intelligence, you're more likely to improve at the skill, and get 1/2 that in a bonus. So, you're rolling 1d6+2. In addition, because it's "class skill" or a "trained skill" of yours, you get an additional +1. So, now, the roll:

1d20+3 If you hit or exceed DC6, then you get Spellcraft 6.

Morality
Morality is basically another way to describe your character, and a way to get XP. If you have the keyword protective, and you act protective of your party, you'd get XP for that. Why? Because you just increased immersion, by giving your party a reason to play as their character, instead of whatever works best OOC.

If you have a word that's in the "Good" section, then you register as "good" to all spells and abilities. Same for Chaotic and Lawful.