No class? This is madness!

[lorddrake]

Do you think it would work a D&D 3.5 with no classes with the following rules:

There is only one "class" and it would work by level like this:


1st: Minor Class Feature
2nd: Minor Class Feature
3rd: Minor Class Feature
4th: Feat
5th: Minor Class Feature
6th: Minor Class Feature
7th: Minor Class Feature
8th: Feat
9th: Class Feature
10th: Class Feature
11th: Class Feature
12th: Feat
13th: Major Class Feature
14th: Major Class Feature
15th: Major Class Feature
16th: Feat
17th: Major Class Feature
18th: Major Class Feature
19th: Feat
20th: Capstone Class feature


It would require to collect several class features from classes all over the place and order their class features by usefulness.

Magic would be a class feature by levels. For example you'd take a minor arcane spellcasting and you'd get up to 4th level spells (and as the character level progresses he gains more and more, but up to 4th level spells). He might take a Class Feature to improve his spellcasting and a major to perfect it (having him accessing all spellcasting capacity).

It would mean that one person can customize everything.

It is broken (some things would have to be thought through first) because one person can take divine, arcane, psionics and everything at the same time. Do you guys think a requisite to accessing the broken things would counter it? For instance you'd need to take "Divine attunement" - a skill that would allow someone to acquire divine powers before taking the divine spellcasting. Would this help?

Am I overseeing more brokeness?

[Forrestfire]

I don't think it would be too broken as long as you had prerequisites for different abilities. For instance: you have to have minor arcane casting to get moderate arcane casting to get major, etc.

One thing I would like to mention, however, is that something like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) has already been done in 3.5.

[toapat]

I don't think it would be too broken as long as you had prerequisites for different abilities. For instance: you have to have minor arcane casting to get moderate arcane casting to get major, etc.

One thing I would like to mention, however, is that something like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) has already been done in 3.5.

i think this would be better as an expanded version of the generic classes from UA, bringing in archtypes like the bard or the paladin/ranger

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I don't think it would be too broken as long as you had prerequisites for different abilities. For instance: you have to have minor arcane casting to get moderate arcane casting to get major, etc.

One thing I would like to mention, however, is that something like this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) has already been done in 3.5.

I would love to see Generic Classes redone as the core of a new system. Pathfinder avoided dead levels, and has tons of great class features and variant class features to draw from.


It is broken (some things would have to be thought through first) because one person can take divine, arcane, psionics and everything at the same time. Do you guys think a requisite to accessing the broken things would counter it? For instance you'd need to take "Divine attunement" - a skill that would allow someone to acquire divine powers before taking the divine spellcasting. Would this help?
Generic classes get around that problem by letting you pick spells from any spell list. I don't think such a system would mix well with psionics, but you you could declare psionics to be the only type of magic in your system/setting and then port all the important spells over to it. That sounds like a fun project to work on.

[lorddrake]

[WARNING - This is a brainstorming thread. If it is confusing, I beg your pardon.]


I was thinking. The class features that scale with level would be minor ones.

Example:

Sneak Attack [Minor Class Feature]

[Text explaining the ability.] This extra damage is 1d6 when you get this minor class feature, and it increases by 1d6 every two levels thereafter. Should the character score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

(and so on)

And Magic/psionics/maneuvers/stuff would need a Minor Class Feature that enables them to use the Magic/psionics/maneuvers/etc. Than the character would take:

Minor Arcane Spontaneous Spellcasting [Minor Class Feature]

[Text explaining sorcerer-like magic].

[Table with spells known and spells per day up to 4th level apells]

The character would need another feature only gotten on 9th level to take spells up to 8th spell level. And take a Major (on 17th level) to access 9th level spells.

One note. You can take a lower graded class feature with a better class feature available. Example: Take a sneak attack on 9th level. It would still mean that you start with 1d6 and advances it by 1d6 every two levels thereafter. So you'd be dealing 2d6 on sneak attack on 11th level, 3d6 on 13th and so on.

[Empedocles]

I'd actually been thinking of something along these lines, and if you do an expanded generic class thing then my Proteus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238419) base class might provide some inspiration for how to do it. I think the Main power sources (possibly expanded) with the Minor Powers would be a good way to do it, but it's really up to you.

Also, I might go ahead and publish my own take on generic classes at some point on these forums. Didn't want to get accused of copying or anything...

Some of the stuff getting tossed around here is looking really great! :smallbiggrin:

[lorddrake]

Whoa! I really liked your Proteus.

I'm going more about a system then a class.

I'll be working now on a thing that's been bugging me.

It is saves, BAB, Skills and Proficiencies. If it is one class toeverybody at the start of the creation it will need to be sorted out.

I thought about going like this:

You get 5 (this number will change) not-named-yet points and would be spent like this:

Poor BAB cost nothing. Everybody gains simple weapon proficiency. Everybody has 2+int skills.

If you want a half BAB you spend 1 point. If you want good BAB you spend 2.

If you want martial proficiency (all martial weapons) you'd need to spend a point.

If you want a good save you spend a point. If you want an exotic you spend a point (each exotic weapon).

If you want +2+int for skills you'd need to spend another point.

Hit die and armor proficiency would have to be part of this, so maybe I'd have give more points.


I'll talk more on skills later.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Got to be careful about scaling abilities. If I can take Sneak Attack at first level and have it scale all the way up to 20th, that means I get to take lots of other abilities as I level. I'm not saying that scaling abilities are bad. In fact, it may be best to say that you get one scaling ability at first level (spellcasting, sneak attack, Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization chains, etc), and the rest of the abilities are static or you can get another scaling ability in place of a static ability but at -5 level.

I think that because the Fighter has encouraged D&D designers to put combat abilities into feats, you should change what is considered a feat and what is considered a class ability. For example, you could say that feats grant character-specific utility bonuses, like +2 to two skills (Alertness, Athletic), or racial things like 120' darkvision as a dwarf or feats that grant cantrips. Make it so that most feats make your character unique and give you "that thing that I'm good at".

[Empedocles]

Okay, I've been brainstorming, and here's what I personally have come up with.

A point buy system for your abilities. Say, for an example's sake, you get 20 points and we're going for Tier 3 power. An individual ability or class feature or even a progression of some sort has a point value. Therefore, every Tier 3 base class already in existence should have abilities that have point values that add up approximately to 20, everything lower should have less then 20 points in terms of abilities, and everything higher should have more then 20 points.

Once these abilities are determined point values, you can purchase them. The nice thing about this is that you can...

A) Select a progression for an ability. For example, a rogue's sneak attack progression would cost more then a spellthief's sneak attack progression or a psychic rogue's sneak attack progression.

B) Get a variety of abilities. For example, a character might have room to purchase a soulborn's meldshaping, a psychic rogue's powers, and a warblade's maneuvers. However, he wouldn't be very good at any of these, and might have to settle for stuff like a d8 HD, medium BAB, 2 skill points and limited skills, and likely very few class features.

C) On the other hand, you could select a lot of class features instead and end up with something like having trapfinding, arcane dilletante, bardic knowledge, a low sneak attack, evasion and mettle, an animal companion, etc.. However, if you did this you wouldn't get very many strong or even average abilities like, say, a sneak attack progression or a duskblade's spellcasting progression. At best, you could purchase some auras like a dragon shaman.

D) This would force player's to pick and choose, keep it balanced, and still give them more or less the exact character they want.

E) Unfortunately, designing this system would be a whole new kind of fun (or just assigning point values)...

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

E) Unfortunately, designing this system would be a whole new kind of fun (or just assigning point values)...

I'd say it's best to pick one scaling ability (sneak attack, favored enemy, spellcasting) and then let them spend static abilities to buy scaling abilities at a reduced level. Much simpler that way, and you can make static abilities that key off of the scaling one (for example, sneak attack could default to flanking-only, but they could spend static abilities to sneak attack enemies after moving, sneak attack enemies who are flat-footed, sneak attack enemies who failed a check against a combat maneuver this round, etc). You could also key the scaling abilities to BAB, HD, skill points, and saves.

[toapat]

I think a pointbuy system could work, although the problem is, actually balancing it becomes a problem. things like Spellcasting and Improved Evasion/Mettle would have to cost alot, but bonus feats can be valuable or worthless, depending on what your prior feats are.

[Knaight]

Another way to do this would be to have everything scale, but only after you got it. Take sneak attack - say it is 1d6 per two levels. If you get it at level 1, it will be 10d6 at level 19. If you get it at level 5, it will be 8d6 at level 19. The same thing could apply to spell casting, where not getting it early means weaker spells - perhaps it would even need to be boosted through use of several slots periodically for the highest point, which is essentially a mixed scale-prerequisite system. The scaling could also be mixed. Again, take sneak attack - say it is worth 1d6 + 1d6/2 levels after + 1d6/4 levels before. Taking it at level 9 immediately gets 3d6 damage, where someone who had it from level 1 already has 5d6.

[lorddrake]

Another way to do this would be to have everything scale, but only after you got it. Take sneak attack - say it is 1d6 per two levels. If you get it at level 1, it will be 10d6 at level 19. If you get it at level 5, it will be 8d6 at level 19. The same thing could apply to spell casting, where not getting it early means weaker spells - perhaps it would even need to be boosted through use of several slots periodically for the highest point, which is essentially a mixed scale-prerequisite system. The scaling could also be mixed. Again, take sneak attack - say it is worth 1d6 + 1d6/2 levels after + 1d6/4 levels before. Taking it at level 9 immediately gets 3d6 damage, where someone who had it from level 1 already has 5d6.

That is more or less the idea that I had. If you take something from the beggining it would scale better. Taking sooner is an advantage, then...

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Another way to do this would be to have everything scale, but only after you got it. Take sneak attack - say it is 1d6 per two levels. If you get it at level 1, it will be 10d6 at level 19. If you get it at level 5, it will be 8d6 at level 19. The same thing could apply to spell casting, where not getting it early means weaker spells - perhaps it would even need to be boosted through use of several slots periodically for the highest point, which is essentially a mixed scale-prerequisite system. The scaling could also be mixed. Again, take sneak attack - say it is worth 1d6 + 1d6/2 levels after + 1d6/4 levels before. Taking it at level 9 immediately gets 3d6 damage, where someone who had it from level 1 already has 5d6.

For balance, you would probably only be able to get a scaling ability rarely. Like at levels 1,8, and 15. This would probably cover major class features like sneak attack, spellcasting, Fighter bonuses (I'd put all of the Fighter feats into one package), or unarmed strike/flurry/Monk feat progression.

Would it make sense to have BAB and saving throw bonuses the same for everyone, like 4e does it? That would emphasize ability scores for differentiating characters and it would encourage defensive abilities and saving throw bonus feats as utility choices. You could also add small bonuses to the scaling abilities to balance them out.