What if Eugene had seeked True Ressurection [prequel spoilers]

[silvadel]

I mean we know that level 17 clerics are NOT at all easy to find... Would it have affected anything if Eugene had (after Right-Eye had approached him) decided that the best way he could fix things without risking his new family was to use his considerable wealth at that time (and expended the effort) to locate a level 17 cleric and have Fyron True Ressurected?

Or would that have netted a "Oh you tried to sidestep a blood oath of vengeance by fixing the affront, eh -- that seems more chaotic than lawful to me so I am throwing you into the neutral good pile."

[MarchiMcFly]

Maybe he tried, but he didn't succeed!:smallsmile:

[Kish]

Wha? :smallconfused: Fyron being resurrected wouldn't have made any difference to the Blood Oath. Eugene didn't swear to "avenge or reverse Fyron's death."

[FujinAkari]

Unless raising Fyron somehow counts as "causing terrible suffering to Xykon" (or whatever the specific wording on the oath was, I'm at work) then I don't see how this would have any effect.

[Steward]

Good thinking! If I were the ruler of Heaven, I would definitely award you partial credit for that and Eugene would be well on his way towards a lawful good paradise. Unfortunately, the specific wording of the Blood Oath defeats you (he basically vowed to destroy Xykon, if I recall correctly, not merely expiate the suffering that Xykon caused), and even if it didn't could Eugene really afford two True Resurrections? (One for Fyron and the other for Fyron's son?)

[hoff]

If I'm not mistaken Xykon Soul Binded Fyrion soul.

[silvadel]

Of course one of two things could happen upon Fyron's True Ressurrection..

1) Fyron decides to take revenge on Xykon with the information Right-eye gave about his location... Well if he succeeds then raising him was directly responsible for Xykon's destruction. If not it was kind of trying.

2) Fyron decides it is not worth taking revenge on Xykon further weakening the blood oath because it was to avenge Fyron's death and if Fyron is not only brought back but directly says -- naw don't worry about it...

Again though I could easily see it pushing someone on the Neutral Good pile but I do not see it as something where the person would get cloud watch duty until fulfilled like ignoring the blood oath did.

[silvadel]

If I'm not mistaken Xykon Soul Binded Fyrion soul.

Nope -- he just turned Fyron's corpse into a regular zombie and teleported out. It is not even known if he had soul bind yet at the time of his encounter with Fyron (he was only 60 years old at the time).

[factotum]

It's a moot point. Fyron, as you point out, was turned into a zombie, and you can't resurrect an undead creature. Eugene would first have to find and destroy the zombie Fyron before he could think of bringing him back from the dead using *any* spell.

[cloudland]

Considering he failed to even locate Xykon himself, it's probably a big stretch to think he can locate something as vague as a level 17 cleric. Any such cleric who's well known enough for him to find probably get killed by Xykon already, considering he would likely to face powerful enemies if these cleric were around.
However, I do remembered someone mentioned before that Dorukan tried to have Lirian true resurrected, so there are level 17 cleric around. Could Dorukan himself be a level 17 cleric??? We got no evidences against that and Dorukan do sort of being fascinated with all sort of magic.

[Steward]

I'm almost positive that Dorukan is a wizard, not a cleric. Good catch on the zombie thing though -- I forgot about that.

[Douglas]

Dorukan is a pure wizard, no divine casting of any kind at all. His status and adventures as a very high level character likely gave him a network of very high level contacts, however, so he probably would have been able to find a level 17+ cleric much more easily than most people. Even without that, though, he had the ability to summon a Planetar or Solar via Greater Planar Binding or Gate, both of which have 17+ level cleric casting which he could negotiate for the use of.

[NerfTW]

However, I do remembered someone mentioned before that Dorukan tried to have Lirian true resurrected, so there are level 17 cleric around. Could Dorukan himself be a level 17 cleric??? We got no evidences against that and Dorukan do sort of being fascinated with all sort of magic.

No, he simply stated that he was trying to find her soul (it was in a soul gem). He makes no mention of a res. One would assume he was planning on using her soul to find her body and do a normal resurrection.

[FujinAkari]

It's a moot point. Fyron, as you point out, was turned into a zombie, and you can't resurrect an undead creature.

True Resurrection can, True Resurrection does not require the original corpse, so the fact that the original corpse is magically reanimated should really be rather irrelevant.

[Douglas]

True Resurrection can, True Resurrection does not require the original corpse, so the fact that the original corpse is magically reanimated should really be rather irrelevant.
From True Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm):

You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

Even True Resurrection requires that you destroy the undead creature before you can raise the person it formerly was.

[Connington]

The zombie made out of Fyron's corpse was a disposable cannon fodder zombie minion of Xykon's, and by the time Eugene and Xykon met, it had been decades since Fyron was zombified. It's fairly likely Zombie!Fyron had already been destroyed by some random adventurer, or by some sick game of Xykon's.

With that, said, it's Eugene. The thought probably didn't even cross his mind once he stopped making his master's death the center of his life.

[veti]

Of course one of two things could happen upon Fyron's True Ressurrection..

1) Fyron decides to take revenge on Xykon with the information Right-eye gave about his location... Well if he succeeds then raising him was directly responsible for Xykon's destruction. If not it was kind of trying.

2) Fyron decides it is not worth taking revenge on Xykon further weakening the blood oath because it was to avenge Fyron's death and if Fyron is not only brought back but directly says -- naw don't worry about it...

Option (1) might just qualify as fulfilling the oath (depending on the exact terms). However, option (2) would just leave Eugene feeling more than ordinarily foolish. He was the one who swore the oath - it was entirely his idea, no-one pushed him into it - so he's the one who's bound by it, and the fact that Fyron doesn't think it's worth it would be neither here nor there. "Don't go swearing oaths if you won't follow through" - is pretty much the entire point of oaths.

You're also overlooking options (3): Fyron sets off to challenge Xykon and dies even more horribly than last time, optionally taking out a small city's worth of collateral damage, (4): Fyron says "Oh, so you've sworn a blood oath then? Good going, you carry on, I'll lay in the popcorn", and (5): Fyron, changed by his experience in the afterlife, resolves to become a lich himself in order to challenge Xykon, then goes on to become as big a monster himself.

Construction of scenarios (6) through (20) is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Adanedhel]

Construction of scenarios (6) through (20) is left as an exercise for the reader.

Are you by any chance a mathematician?

[Winter]

Are you by any chance a mathematician?

No, as in that case, he'd only have postulated (0) and (1) then claimed the rest would follow by complete induction.

[Kish]

1) Fyron decides to take revenge on Xykon with the information Right-eye gave about his location... Well if he succeeds then raising him was directly responsible for Xykon's destruction. If not it was kind of trying.
You mean, dumping the Blood Oath on someone else?

How well did that sort of "kind of trying" work out for Eugene when Someone Else was Roy?

Why would the devas look any more kindly on him dumping it on Fyron?

[Anarion]

You mean, dumping the Blood Oath on someone else?

How well did that sort of "kind of trying" work out for Eugene when Someone Else was Roy?

Why would the devas look any more kindly on him dumping it on Fyron?

It would depend on purpose. You could see it as no different than summoning a very powerful angel to go kill Xykon, in which case Eugene would have had agency in Xykon's defeat and fulfill the blood oath. Or, it could be that raising his master is a way of passing off the work and therefore he would only fulfill the oath if he revived Fyron and continued to work on defeating Xykon himself. I think the angels would judge it based on what Eugene was thinking at the time.

As the Deva says here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html): "He was doing what he thought was best, to the limit of his ability-including his ability to judge what was best."

[Dr.Epic]

Eugene's Blood Oath was to kill Xykon. How would bringing back his master make a difference?

[Kish]

It would depend on purpose. You could see it as no different than summoning a very powerful angel to go kill Xykon, in which case Eugene would have had agency in Xykon's defeat and fulfill the blood oath.
You appear to be going on the unspoken assumption, "Master Fyron would have destroyed Xykon."

[Nephrahim]

There's no reason to assume Fyron could have defeated Xykon. He was a powerful Wizard sure, but was there any evidence he was near as powerful as Xykon was? Not to mention he would have also had to locate/defeat the goblins and other creatures under his command.

[Winter Light]

There's no reason to assume Fyron could have defeated Xykon. He was a powerful Wizard sure, but was there any evidence he was near as powerful as Xykon was? Not to mention he would have also had to locate/defeat the goblins and other creatures under his command.

I'm pretty sure that Fyron, a wizard, got jumped after an awards ceremony by Xykon, a sorceror--in other words, he was most likely in a situation he was unprepared for, in a fight his class wasn't meant for. Even so, if I recall correctly (and I'm pretty confident I do), he trounced Xykon until the latter resorted to bludgeoning him to death with a handy nearby blunt object.

So I would say there's a great deal of evidence he was significantly more powerful than Xykon.

Of course, by the time he got resurrected, Xykon would be more powerful (possibly even having leveled from their encounter!), and Fyron would be weaker form having been brought back from the dead. Also, Xykon did not, at he time, have "goblins and other creatures" under his command (maybe a few undead, at best--though he didn't seem to keep too many of those around at any given time).

[Steward]

I definitely remember Fyron beating Xykon. It's been way too long though...