What is Nale's Plan?

[Kievan King]

Howdy, Playground

I'm actually a little bit surprised that this subject has (to my knowledge) not yet appeared on the boards, given the scope and breadth of the speculation that we like to get up to around here. That said, what is Nale's plan? For all of his villainous foibles, he is a pretty smart guy, so I'm curious where he sees himself fitting into this whole gates/possible apocalypse scenario. He knows the purpose of the gates, and he is also aware of all of the significant players, including team evil and their plan. Where does he see himself in the end-game? Surely he's smart enough to know he can't beat Xykon to take control of the gates. I've been speculating that he might have a plan to outsmart him, but it seems like an outside chance and I think Nale would probably realize that as well.

So I now open up the floor to speculation of any kind on the subject. Knowing that a vastly superior force of evil is pursuing essentially the same goal as him (and as we know, holding a preference for being the center of attention), what could Nale be planning to do regarding the gates?

[Steward]

I don't really get it either. I have this vague notion that he hopes to gain control of a gate somehow and use it as leverage to either team up with or extinguish Xykon.

I've heard speculation that Malack and Zz'tdri, being a divine and arcane caster, may be able to do the ritual on their own if they had it, but that can't be Nale's plan since he has no reason to think that Malack would want to help him rule the world or, until recently, even thought that he would have access to Malack under any circumstances.

[Math_Mage]

Howdy, Playground

I'm actually a little bit surprised that this subject has (to my knowledge) not yet appeared on the boards, given the scope and breadth of the speculation that we like to get up to around here. That said, what is Nale's plan? For all of his villainous foibles, he is a pretty smart guy, so I'm curious where he sees himself fitting into this whole gates/possible apocalypse scenario. He knows the purpose of the gates, and he is also aware of all of the significant players, including team evil and their plan. Where does he see himself in the end-game? Surely he's smart enough to know he can't beat Xykon to take control of the gates. I've been speculating that he might have a plan to outsmart him, but it seems like an outside chance and I think Nale would probably realize that as well.

So I now open up the floor to speculation of any kind on the subject. Knowing that a vastly superior force of evil is pursuing essentially the same goal as him (and as we know, holding a preference for being the center of attention), what could Nale be planning to do regarding the gates?

He knows the purpose of the gates, he knows who TE is, but he plainly isn't aware of TE's purpose for the gates. I'm also not certain he knows just how much TE outclasses him, unless OtOoPCs has something I don't know about.

I find it heavily ironic that Nale's about to get embroiled in a 3- or 4-way confrontation over the Gate, when he explicitly left Azure City in order to avoid that outcome. Given his complete failure on that front, I doubt he's really ready for Team Evil to show up. He probably hopes to get rid of Tarquin/Malack and the Order here, and probably hasn't planned past that.

[theNater]

Nale thinks that once he's on top of the gate, he can use it in the way Xykon plans to use it. After he has the Snarl at his beck and call, Xykon will be small potatoes.

[Peelee]

I think Nale's pretty much playing things by ear at the moment. His attack on the OotS in the Empire of Blood was pretty spur-of-the-moment and unplanned, and he's been in pretty deep since then. He turned invisible, tried to spy, got caught, and from there seems (to me, at least) that all the talk of the Gates and possibly controlling them was Nale simply verbally dancing for his life. The whole thing was a stall tactic to save his own butt, which happened to open up an opportunity to kill the Order as well.

As always, I could be completely wrong, but I'm very much of the impression that Nale has been flying by the seat of his pants for some time now.

[Steward]

I think Nale's pretty much playing things by ear at the moment. His attack on the OotS in the Empire of Blood was pretty spur-of-the-moment and unplanned, and he's been in pretty deep since then. He turned invisible, tried to spy, got caught, and from there seems (to me, at least) that all the talk of the Gates and possibly controlling them was Nale simply verbally dancing for his life. The whole thing was a stall tactic to save his own butt, which happened to open up an opportunity to kill the Order as well.

As always, I could be completely wrong, but I'm very much of the impression that Nale has been flying by the seat of his pants for some time now.

That's a good point. I forgot that nothing that happened since the ambush was desired by Nale. Again, in order to control the gates Nale knows he needs a ritual. I'm not sure if he knows about the arcane/divine thing.

[BaronOfHell]

I have no clue regarding Nale's yet unrevealed plans for accomplishing his goals, but I can list the goals as I understood them, chronologically, from Nale's perspective assuming the information from the comic is correct (such as Tarquin's story).

Goals:
Known ruler of a state (From Tarquin's story)
Overthrow Tarquin (From the Dungeons of Dorukan and Dorukan's Talisman story).
Destroy Elan (From Dungeons of Dorukan story)
Destroy OOTS (Can't remember where it changed, or maybe it was always this).
Take control over a gate

It's funny to think that if Nale had not decided to destroy Elan, his team might have been fighting along with the order when defeating Xykon in dungeons of Dorukan and had he survived the fight, he might had stopped Elan from touching the rune and could be in control of a gate by now. At least for the weeks Xykon regenerated.

[cloudland]

What I didn't get is why isn't Nale teleporting away already? He obviously is after the gate himself, but is not willing to have Xykon have his hand on it. And yet he can't do anything about it, and now if anyone who is not TE is going to take advantage of the gate, it's going to be Tarquin and he know it. So...could it be that Nale is planning to destroy the gate himself?

[Finagle]

Yeah, Nale's plan is "not get murdered by Malack." Do we remember when he was about *this close* to dying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html)?

[Steward]

It's funny to think that if Nale had not decided to destroy Elan, his team might have been fighting along with the order when defeating Xykon in dungeons of Dorukan and had he survived the fight, he might had stopped Elan from touching the rune and could be in control of a gate by now. At least for the weeks Xykon regenerated.

That's true, but Nale never intended to help the Order vanquish Xykon. Xykon in fact hired Nale to kill the Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), which he was only happy to do in any event after he obtained his Dorukan's talisman. He might have been willing to add Elan to his Linear Guild but not the rest of the Order, who he planned on eliminating, and he was never interested in fighting Xykon at all.

[Kievan King]

Another thought just occurred to me after reading these: maybe he just hopes to "point" Xykon at his father in the hopes that it will weaken the blood/sweat/tears axis and "hasten his inheritance." Maybe he just plans for something more small-scale like conquering a continent and seizing some serious (but not world-threatening power). Whatever the case may be, I would definitely agree that he has been forced to do too much improvising and is now in way over his head. It's more than possible that he's pursuing some fleeting advantage, but my gut tells me he has something bigger planned.

Also, is it just me, or are Tarquin and Malack definitely planning to kill Nale? (probably already a thread)

[Math_Mage]

Another thought just occurred to me after reading these: maybe he just hopes to "point" Xykon at his father in the hopes that it will weaken the blood/sweat/tears axis and "hasten his inheritance." Maybe he just plans for something more small-scale like conquering a continent and seizing some serious (but not world-threatening power). Whatever the case may be, I would definitely agree that he has been forced to do too much improvising and is now in way over his head. It's more than possible that he's pursuing some fleeting advantage, but my gut tells me he has something bigger planned.

Also, is it just me, or are Tarquin and Malack definitely planning to kill Nale? (probably already a thread)

Nale has no idea of the timing involved for Team Evil. That's a pie-in-the-sky plan if I ever heard one.

And yes, T+M definitely have an agreement that Nale's gonna meet a nasty end. Doesn't mean T's gonna strictly live up to it, though. If Tarquin lets Nale live, and lets Malack believe he genuinely tried to kill Nale, it's a win-win for him.

[Ron Miel]

That said, what is Nale's plan? ... he is a pretty smart guy, ...

Erm, no.

What gives you that idea?

[Math_Mage]

Erm, no.

What gives you that idea?

He's smart enough to engineer over-complicated plans to enact petty vengeance for imagined slights.

He's just not wise enough NOT to.

Let's be fair, his victories in the previous two arcs were averted by awful luck alone. (The fact that his second 'victory' probably would have gotten him killed aside.) For all his schemes were ludicrous, they worked. They were just too complicated to be airtight.

He doesn't have to be at Tarquin's level, or V's, to qualify as 'a pretty smart guy'.

[Gift Jeraff]

Erm, no.

What gives you that idea?"Oh, he was intelligent, but some of the most intelligent otters I've ever known were completely lacking in common sense." ~The Wise One

[Forikroder]

Howdy, Playground

I'm actually a little bit surprised that this subject has (to my knowledge) not yet appeared on the boards, given the scope and breadth of the speculation that we like to get up to around here. That said, what is Nale's plan? For all of his villainous foibles, he is a pretty smart guy, so I'm curious where he sees himself fitting into this whole gates/possible apocalypse scenario. He knows the purpose of the gates, and he is also aware of all of the significant players, including team evil and their plan. Where does he see himself in the end-game? Surely he's smart enough to know he can't beat Xykon to take control of the gates. I've been speculating that he might have a plan to outsmart him, but it seems like an outside chance and I think Nale would probably realize that as well.

So I now open up the floor to speculation of any kind on the subject. Knowing that a vastly superior force of evil is pursuing essentially the same goal as him (and as we know, holding a preference for being the center of attention), what could Nale be planning to do regarding the gates?

pretty smart? all his plans have boiled down to "do a frontal assault" the msot complicated plan hes ever done is "make sure there split up then do a frontal assault"

all his plans can be summed up with one line from Roy
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html
grab your bizaro twin and beat the living hell out of him

as for his immediate plan, well first hes gonna get the OoTS seperated (which they do by themselves anyway) and have his team grab there bizzaro twin and beat the living hell out of them

then using his "massive intellect" hell figure out how to control the snarl on his own cause he actually thinks hes that smart


He's smart enough to engineer over-complicated plans to enact petty vengeance for imagined slights.

i dont know how overly complicated his schemes really were, the OoTS pretty mcuh did it all for him by being completely willing to split up at cliffport and in the EoB, the only thing that was needlessly complicated was his plan to take Elans place and try to sneak attack some order members which again the OoTS pretty mcuh did for him by completeing ignoring everything he said

[coineineagh]

Ever since their first meeting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html), it has been clear that Nale and the LG were designed as 'evil opposites'. Nale has to be petty, vengeful and scheming in order for the animosity to remain plausible.:smallwink:
The OotS gets to play innocent, like Schwarzenegger and Jackie Chan do in so many movies: "Leave me alone!" [corresponding accent required]
Only after significant coaxing, will the innocent action heroes show their stuff.
Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html) says it best: "I know that if you want them to do something, you need to prod them now and then. Otherwise, they'll just stand around talking until they fill up like eight pages with speech balloons.":smallbiggrin:
:smalleek:I fear for Nale now... the comic is maturing a great deal, and the LG just seems out of place, with everything else being so serious and involved. Perhaps the Giant feels that Nale is a storytelling crutch that he hasn't needed in a long time.. Tarquin is the new Nale:smallcool:

As for what will happen: who knows? Nale did work with Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) in the past, so there's no reason TE and LG can't cooperate again. If that's so, OotS is not prepared for the battle, and will likely need rescuing. If it Lee, Nero and Cedrik coming to the rescue again, I'm gonna laugh!!:smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

all his plans can be summed up with one line from Roy
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html
grab your bizaro twin and beat the living hell out of himAnd yet, V never even met Pompey. And Sabine didn't fight Haley in Cliffport. And the Thog vs. Roy/Haley battle in Cliffport was irrelevant to his plan. And his first plan involved monsters fighting for him. And Yukyuk was trying to kill V, not Belkar...

[veti]

As for what will happen: who knows? Nale did work with Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) in the past, so there's no reason TE and LG can't cooperate again.

That's a good point - I'd forgotten that Nale has actually met, spoken to and dealt with Xykon in the past.

So one possible plan would be for him to try to team up with Xykon again (if and when he shows up), in the hopes that Xykon will take out Tarquin, Malack, and the OOTS.

[Math_Mage]

pretty smart? all his plans have boiled down to "do a frontal assault" the msot complicated plan hes ever done is "make sure there split up then do a frontal assault"

all his plans can be summed up with one line from Roy
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html
grab your bizaro twin and beat the living hell out of him

as for his immediate plan, well first hes gonna get the OoTS seperated (which they do by themselves anyway) and have his team grab there bizzaro twin and beat the living hell out of them

then using his "massive intellect" hell figure out how to control the snarl on his own cause he actually thinks hes that smart

There was no frontal assault plan in the first confrontation. That was forced after the lucky arrow ruined his plan, which involved deception followed by backstabbing (frontstabbing, rather) followed by a hasty retreat. As you say, it was ROY'S idea to match the bizarro twins against each other. Nale even takes pains to switch away from fighting Elan.

There was no frontal assault plan in the second confrontation. There was a diversion that served as cover for Nale to frame Elan and take his place, following weeks of serial murder as a setup, and an overly complicated kidnapping as setup for the diversion.

I'm puzzled as to how you reach the conclusion that frontal assault is even an important part of Nale's strategy, let alone the ONLY part.

[DBear]

Why do you all think Nale HAS a plan? Nale's not doing anything except taking orders from Sabine, and Sabine's taking orders from the IFCC. Nale's a sock puppet, nothing more.

[ti'esar]

Why do you all think Nale HAS a plan? Nale's not doing anything except taking orders from Sabine, and Sabine's taking orders from the IFCC. Nale's a sock puppet, nothing more.

Nale thinks he's his own man, though (and he isn't exactly taking direct orders from Sabine). So obviously he has a plan of his own. And for that matter, the IFCC, from what we know, has no real plan for Nale except using him to stir up chaos, so I'm not sure what they have to do with it either.

[Math_Mage]

Why do you all think Nale HAS a plan? Nale's not doing anything except taking orders from Sabine, and Sabine's taking orders from the IFCC. Nale's a sock puppet, nothing more.

Nale doesn't take orders from Sabine--she's the one who always asks HIM what they're doing next. And Sabine doesn't take orders from the IFCC anymore, per her conversation with Qarr. So, I really have no idea where you got this from.

[Forikroder]

And yet, V never even met Pompey. And Sabine didn't fight Haley in Cliffport. And the Thog vs. Roy/Haley battle in Cliffport was irrelevant to his plan. And his first plan involved monsters fighting for him. And Yukyuk was trying to kill V, not Belkar...

okay its not quite like that then how about

"find whoever you can find first and kill him" would be more accurate but in general it is more often then not the evil opposite VS the... good opposite

There was no frontal assault plan in the second confrontation. There was a diversion that served as cover for Nale to frame Elan and take his place, following weeks of serial murder as a setup, and an overly complicated kidnapping as setup for the diversion.

and as soon as the OoTS were in cliffport it became a free for all where every member of the LG fought whoever they found first

Nale only has half decent plans up to the point where they actually meet there enemy then its just "do whatever you want"

[Math_Mage]

and as soon as the OoTS were in cliffport it became a free for all where every member of the LG fought whoever they found first

Uh huh. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html) :smallsigh:

[skaddix]

Nale is trying to stay alive. Although I am not sure Nale understands just how powerful Team Evil is in comparison to himself.

[BaronOfHell]

Nale has no idea of the timing involved for Team Evil. That's a pie-in-the-sky plan if I ever heard one.

I don't know for sure, but I think Nale is genre savy enough to realise if it comes to a point where T have conquered the gate, team Evil is bound to show up no matter what. So timing would never be a problem.

Though I didn't think about it, I like the suggested idea that maybe Nale didn't think he could take over a gate and in stead he used himself as bait. Made T think he was after something big (which is genuinely big) and thereby put a big "target me" on T.

The way it's proceeded so far though does not lent much credit to the idea, unless Nale has a lot lot lot lot more insight than what I give him credit for.

[Euodiachloris]

To be honest, I think Nale's plans right now are "don't get myself killed by Malack and show Dad up".

If he has any convoluted, longer-term plans, they're draughted in pencil, not inked, let alone coloured, at this point.

The one smart move he might try would actually be to *gasp* work with the Order. Never going to happen, as it seems Dad might be doing that, first. Maybe.

And, I think he'd rather be strangled by Malack than work with Elan. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Nale doesn't take orders from Sabine--she's the one who always asks HIM what they're doing next. And Sabine doesn't take orders from the IFCC anymore, per her conversation with Qarr. So, I really have no idea where you got this from.

Uh... from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)?
The actual situation (and the degree's control) may be uncertain, but it started with Nale & C. as pawns to the IFCC.

[Math_Mage]

Uh... from here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html)?
The actual situation (and the degree's control) may be uncertain, but it started with Nale & C. as pawns to the IFCC.

Sabine may originally have taken orders from the IFCC, but Nale has never taken orders from Sabine. She may have SUGGESTIONS, but that's a very different arrangement that would in no way preclude Nale having plans. He's an UNKNOWING pawn, as was explicitly stated in the comic you cite. It's not like the IFCC is laying out his every move and handing instructions to him through Sabine; they're content to let him cause trouble, with an occasional nudge in the right direction.

[Winter]

That said, what is Nale's plan?

I actually doubt he has one.

He did not have enough information in the first place to make a good, solid plan. He was just into the "Gate Thing" because his brother was and he somehow thinks he knows people who know more (Team Evil). He has no idea what the gates in specific are, what Team Evil wants or how to make Team Evil somehow benefit him.

Since he got caught in the Empire of Blood it got even worse and right now, he's just rolling with it and tries not to get killed by Malack (and possibly by his father).

Maybe Nale has some idea what he wants to do next, but I seriously doubt he has any real plan, even for his standards, at the moment.

[Gift Jeraff]

He has no idea what the gates in specific areHe heard Shojo's story, so he knows as much about what the Gates are as Team Evil and the Good Guys. Redcloak, the gods, certain dead people, and possibly Jirix are the only people who know that the Snarl can't be controlled. If you mean each Gate's specific defenses, then yeah Xykon & co. are definitely in the lead there, due to Serini's diary.

[Kievan King]

I still don't buy the theory that Nale has no plan whatsoever. Whatever our criticisms are of his plans and methods, it's been well established in the narrative that he has a pretty high intelligence (with more than a few weaknesses) and he is a plotter. Why would he rush back to the western continent to gather more information in a dangerous locale if he had no plan on what to do with said information? We know that he is an unwitting pawn of the IFCC, but their motives are not his. Because of their involvement, we can assume that he has his own plan regarding the gates.

The stumbling block that I keep running into is that he is nowhere near powerful enough to use the gates in a way similar to team evil's "the plan," and even though there is some disagreement on this point, I believe he is smart enough to realize that fact. Given that he's been able to come up with some surprises in the past, I'm beginning to suspect he may have been given some kind of gate-related ritual of his own.

Or something.

[Winter]

He heard Shojo's story, so he knows as much about what the Gates are as Team Evil and the Good Guys. Redcloak, the gods, certain dead people, and possibly Jirix are the only people who know that the Snarl can't be controlled. If you mean each Gate's specific defenses, then yeah Xykon & co. are definitely in the lead there, due to Serini's diary.

He knows what the Order learned from Shojo, meaning that the gates are a mean to destroy gods and the world. Nale probably has no idea what he wants with them (as he has no real interest in destroying the world, he seems to want to rule it) and he also has no idea how to do something with them.

I still guess he just wants to secure them for himself, so no one else can have them (and mainly because no one else should have them if he cannot).

[veti]

I still don't buy the theory that Nale has no plan whatsoever. Whatever our criticisms are of his plans and methods, it's been well established in the narrative that he has a pretty high intelligence

When has that been "well established"? Not trying to be snide, but I don't recall seeing any evidence for Nale being anything like bright. Heck, he routinely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html) gets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) outwitted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html) by Elan.

As far as I can see, the main difference between Nale and Elan's INT scores is that Elan knows he's stupid, whereas Nale labours under the delusion that he's clever. (One benefit of being a PC: you get to see your own stats.)


Why would he rush back to the western continent to gather more information in a dangerous locale if he had no plan on what to do with said information?

And where does he say why he came to the Western Continent?

[Kish]

(One benefit of being a PC: you get to see your own stats.)
Judging by the Dragon Magazine strip with the goblin mooks, you don't need to be a PC for that.

Nale likely just thinks himself above stats or--like Thog--thinks that not having higher-than-he-expects-to-use stats in his mental ability scores proves how brilliant he really is.

[Gift Jeraff]

And where does he say why he came to the Western Continent?Presumably, he came because he figured Girard Draketooth had something to do with Penelope/Orrin Draketooth (Panel 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)).

[Emulgator]

I believe that Nale will gain a capitalized E in his aligment by selling Tarquin to Xykon. He worked with Xykon, and even if Xykon woudn't remember him, Redcloak would consider him a dead weight, since he didn't do the job. Giving him a powerful Gate competitor on a plate however...

So yeah, in case of Linear Guild meeting with Xykon we shall see some true diplomacy from everyone. Except Xykon.

[Math_Mage]

When has that been "well established"? Not trying to be snide, but I don't recall seeing any evidence for Nale being anything like bright. Heck, he routinely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html) gets (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) outwitted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0801.html) by Elan.

But...none of those examples involve Elan outwitting Nale. Unless you think Elan had a vision of that particular section of bridge collapsing, or just ALLOWED Nale to get him locked up in Cliffport knowing he would return aboard Scoundrel's airship, or deliberately led Nale to Amun-Zora's prison cell knowing that delay would allow him to...uh, lose to Nale slightly later after making Amun-Zora Nale's potential ally. :smallconfused:

[Steward]

I still don't buy the theory that Nale has no plan whatsoever. Whatever our criticisms are of his plans and methods, it's been well established in the narrative that he has a pretty high intelligence (with more than a few weaknesses) and he is a plotter. Why would he rush back to the western continent to gather more information in a dangerous locale if he had no plan on what to do with said information? We know that he is an unwitting pawn of the IFCC, but their motives are not his. Because of their involvement, we can assume that he has his own plan regarding the gates.

My thing is, I know that Nale is intelligent and all, and I think that he was working on a plan, but the Order's appearance kind of screwed up his plans. He launched an ambush that he wasn't prepared for (he didn't have a divine caster to oppose Durkon or a fighter-type to oppose Roy since Thog was not within contact). Then he was ambushed himself by Tarquin and Malack and dragged along. He's probably cooking one up now but it's reasonable to think that it's not fully formulated since he's been hit with several curveballs one right after the other and has only had a few hours to really think (during the flight between the Empire of Blood and the Windy Canyon).

[Forikroder]

Uh huh. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html) :smallsigh:
the only people who actually sought there targets was the kobold, nale and Thog, everyone else jsut did whatever they wanted to if Haley had jsut stayed hidden and kept an eye on Elan Nales whole plan would ahve been pointless becuase the druid and pompey werent seeking targets, sabine was tied up with Roy and the kobold was busy trying to get revenge

again, Nales plan only worked becuase the Order is jsut as strategical inept as him

[veti]

But...none of those examples involve Elan outwitting Nale. Unless you think Elan had a vision of that particular section of bridge collapsing, or just ALLOWED Nale to get him locked up in Cliffport knowing he would return aboard Scoundrel's airship, or deliberately led Nale to Amun-Zora's prison cell knowing that delay would allow him to...uh, lose to Nale slightly later after making Amun-Zora Nale's potential ally. :smallconfused:

What they show is Elan adapting to the situation, and Nale failing to keep up. In the first example, Elan forces Nale into (what anyone should have known) is an unwinnable position - the bridge cracking is just gravy, Nale has already lost at that point. In the second, Elan has engineered his own escape from prison and returned in time to thwart Nale's plot - if that's not "outwitting", I don't know what is. In the third, neither of them has any idea Amun-Zora is going to be there, but Elan is the one who thinks quickly enough to turn the surprise to his advantage.

[Math_Mage]

What they show is Elan adapting to the situation, and Nale failing to keep up. In the first example, Elan forces Nale into (what anyone should have known) is an unwinnable position. In the second, Elan has engineered his own escape from prison and returned in time to thwart Nale's plot - if that's not "outwitting", I don't know what is. In the third, neither of them has any idea Amun-Zora is going to be there, but Elan is the one who thinks quickly enough to turn the surprise to his advantage.

None of these were battles of wits. Nale was already in a losing position in the first example--Elan walking to the edge of the bridge does not constitute a mental victory over Nale. In the second example, Elan's return is accomplished by the blind chance of encountering Scoundrel, and the only people he outwitted in doing so were a couple of Cliffport prison guards and a bouncer. And there's no question of Nale turning Amun-Zora to his advantage in the third encounter because Nale doesn't know anything ABOUT Amun-Zora.

There is no point anywhere in Order of the Stick where Elan outwits Nale, unless you count the migraine caused by willful dramatic protagonist ignorance.


the only people who actually sought there targets was the kobold, nale and Thog, everyone else jsut did whatever they wanted to if Haley had jsut stayed hidden and kept an eye on Elan Nales whole plan would ahve been pointless becuase the druid and pompey werent seeking targets, sabine was tied up with Roy and the kobold was busy trying to get revenge

again, Nales plan only worked becuase the Order is jsut as strategical inept as him

Earlier, you were arguing that Nale didn't have a ludicrously over-complicated plan for taking down the Order in round 2.

Now, you're arguing that Nale had a ludicrously over-complicated plan with holes in it. No one has EVER disputed that Nale's ludicrously over-complicated plans had holes in them.

Pick an argument and stick to it, or stop arguing. It's tiresome to deal with shifting goalposts.

[Killer Angel]

Sabine may originally have taken orders from the IFCC, but Nale has never taken orders from Sabine. She may have SUGGESTIONS, but that's a very different arrangement that would in no way preclude Nale having plans. He's an UNKNOWING pawn, as was explicitly stated in the comic you cite. It's not like the IFCC is laying out his every move and handing instructions to him through Sabine; they're content to let him cause trouble, with an occasional nudge in the right direction.

Ah, now I see what was your initial objection. Yes, on that, I agree.

[Forikroder]

Earlier, you were arguing that Nale didn't have a ludicrously over-complicated plan for taking down the Order in round 2.

Now, you're arguing that Nale had a ludicrously over-complicated plan with holes in it. No one has EVER disputed that Nale's ludicrously over-complicated plans had holes in them.

Pick an argument and stick to it, or stop arguing. It's tiresome to deal with shifting goalposts.

he didnt, he only has ridiculous plans to get to the point where he can fight the order then they barely deserve to be called plans

[zimmerwald1915]

he didnt, he only has ridiculous plans to get to the point where he can fight the order then they barely deserve to be called plans
What exactly do you want? A fully detailed playbook where each LGer's positioning and tactics are laid out step by painstaking step in each possible contingency?

[AgentofHellfire]

But...none of those examples involve Elan outwitting Nale. Unless you think Elan had a vision of that particular section of bridge collapsing, or just ALLOWED Nale to get him locked up in Cliffport knowing he would return aboard Scoundrel's airship, or deliberately led Nale to Amun-Zora's prison cell knowing that delay would allow him to...uh, lose to Nale slightly later after making Amun-Zora Nale's potential ally. :smallconfused:

Well, remember, Elan is a Bard. Which he can make predictions based on the rules of narrative structure that might allow him to make plans like that.

[Math_Mage]

What exactly do you want? A fully detailed playbook where each LGer's positioning and tactics are laid out step by painstaking step in each possible contingency?

I think he wants more plans with rocket skates. Can't be sure, though.


Well, remember, Elan is a Bard. Which he can make predictions based on the rules of narrative structure that might allow him to make plans like that.

But he didn't, so...

[Forikroder]

What exactly do you want? A fully detailed playbook where each LGer's positioning and tactics are laid out step by painstaking step in each possible contingency?

im jsut expecting some sort of plan, the plan as far as i can tell was everyone do what they want to do, Pompey and Sabine ambush whoevers dumb enough to fall for it and elan and thog pull the old switcheroo

there wasnt actually a battle plan it was jsut everyone attacking the first person they met aside from Thog and Elan

[Math_Mage]

im jsut expecting some sort of plan, the plan as far as i can tell was everyone do what they want to do, Pompey and Sabine ambush whoevers dumb enough to fall for it and elan and thog pull the old switcheroo

there wasnt actually a battle plan it was jsut everyone attacking the first person they met aside from Thog and Elan

Julia was at the ambush site. It was predictable that at least Roy would be there.

Leeky was well-equipped to cause a distracting commotion, which would attract the attention of the Order at large.

Belkar was the natural choice to leave with Elan. It's all very well to say Haley should be guarding him and shouldn't have revealed herself to Leeky, but there are lots of guard duties that can't be effectively done with a bow. Like this, for example. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html) That makes the kobold's revenge tactically convenient.

It's not so much that Nale had to meticulously plan what he was going to do about each and every member of the Order as that he had to plan the right set of distractions. Julia, Yokyok, and Leeky are pretty good as far as that goes.

And when I think of the whole twin-switching setup, the last thing I think is that it was JUST "the ol' switcheroo." A LOT of work went into that swap.

[Winter]

Actually, of all of Nale's stupid plans, the Julia-thing was indeed quite smart played - and it also worked out perfectly.
Nale does lack true insight into the characters, but with that plan there he played all his cards right and he got a clear-cut victory (the allies he lost were all disposable in the first place and only meant to cause distractions, which they did; Nale used the right character vs. the right Order-character with just appropiate tactics).
Roy might have defeated Sabine but she was just there to keep him occupied - and in the end, she just walked out.

As much as I think Nale is a pompous jerk who's only half as smart as he thinks, that thing there really did work because it was well planned and well executed. Credit has to go where credit is due.

[Forikroder]

Julia was at the ambush site. It was predictable that at least Roy would be there.

Leeky was well-equipped to cause a distracting commotion, which would attract the attention of the Order at large.

Belkar was the natural choice to leave with Elan. It's all very well to say Haley should be guarding him and shouldn't have revealed herself to Leeky, but there are lots of guard duties that can't be effectively done with a bow. Like this, for example. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html) That makes the kobold's revenge tactically convenient.

It's not so much that Nale had to meticulously plan what he was going to do about each and every member of the Order as that he had to plan the right set of distractions. Julia, Yokyok, and Leeky are pretty good as far as that goes.

And when I think of the whole twin-switching setup, the last thing I think is that it was JUST "the ol' switcheroo." A LOT of work went into that swap.

if the order had been smart and instead of splitting up completely and setting up no fall back points or safe areas or places to retreat to regroup or having any method at all of keeping in contact with the other emmbers Nale plan would have completely fallen apart

hell, if Belkar didnt have the mark of justice he would ahve killed the kobold in one or two rounds then Nales entire plan falls apart

his actual strategy to handle the fight had so many holes, and relyed on your opponent to be so incredibly retarded that i refuse to acknowledge it as a strategy since the only reason it worked is becuase it had to work to advance the story

[Gift Jeraff]

It played on the fact that the Order are also incompetent fools. If a strategy relies on a known trait of your opponent, you refuse to acknowledge it as a strategy? A bad strategy is still a strategy.

[ti'esar]

Actually, the Cliffport scenario is a good way to sum up Nale as a whole: a complicated, yet successful plan with lots of effort put into it, used to achieve a cliche and rather pointless goal.

[zimmerwald1915]

if the order had been smart and instead of splitting up completely and setting up no fall back points or safe areas or places to retreat to regroup or having any method at all of keeping in contact with the other emmbers Nale plan would have completely fallen apart

hell, if Belkar didnt have the mark of justice he would ahve killed the kobold in one or two rounds then Nales entire plan falls apart

his actual strategy to handle the fight had so many holes, and relyed on your opponent to be so incredibly retarded that i refuse to acknowledge it as a strategy since the only reason it worked is becuase it had to work to advance the story
The fallback point was supposed to be the park (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html), until it turned out that the LG had occupied it first. But that's beside the point. This point is this: there is an adage in poker that you do not play your hand, you play your opponent. The Order would not be the Order if they planned out their moves twelve steps in advance, and Nale knew this from the last time he encountered them. Whatever holes there were in his strategy were acceptable, because the Order could not exploit them while still remaining in character.

EDIT: ninja'd.

[Forikroder]

The fallback point was supposed to be the park (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0341.html), until it turned out that the LG had occupied it first. But that's beside the point. This point is this: there is an adage in poker that you do not play your hand, you play your opponent. The Order would not be the Order if they planned out their moves twelve steps in advance, and Nale knew this from the last time he encountered them. Whatever holes there were in his strategy were acceptable, because the Order could not exploit them while still remaining in character.

EDIT: ninja'd.

that was not the fallback point jsut the point where V and Durkon decided to stand

and yes, i am fully aware that the plan worked, but any plan that the firststep is "it doesnt matter what we do since our opponents are that dumb" is not a plan

[Math_Mage]

The Order's basic error was assuming that the hostage exchange was the focus of the situation. With that mistake made, the game was basically Nale's, considering that Leeky had the clout to handle Haley, V, and Durkon at the same time (or would have had, without Thor's rule-bending intervention). The rest was over-engineered genius idiocy--which has been the point all along, that Nale dreams up all sorts of shenanigans he doesn't need.

[Forikroder]

The Order's basic error was assuming that the hostage exchange was the focus of the situation. With that mistake made, the game was basically Nale's, considering that Leeky had the clout to handle Haley, V, and Durkon at the same time (or would have had, without Thor's rule-bending intervention). The rest was over-engineered genius idiocy--which has been the point all along, that Nale dreams up all sorts of shenanigans he doesn't need.

the orders basic error was in everything

they allowed the meat shield to go alone into an ambush with no back up

they let the casters stand alone without a meat shield

they had the rogue hide but give away her position at the first sign of trouble

they had the orders pretty mcuh strongest fighter in a situation where he couldnt actually fight

and they had the bard do absolutely nothing

relistically Durkon should have gone with Roy or at least V or Elan because a fighter alone is easily handled

V should have been with Haley in hiding waiting for Nales plan to reveal itself instead of attacking the first thing that moves

Belkar should have been in a position where someone could cover him, or at least do roys job and be the bait since the only thing he could do alone was take hits

[AgentofHellfire]

But he didn't, so...

What makes you say that? Especially since feigning ignorance is a large part of how Elan does things, it not being immediately obvious that Elan planned something doesn't mean he didn't.

[Math_Mage]

What makes you say that? Especially since feigning ignorance is a large part of how Elan does things, it not being immediately obvious that Elan planned something doesn't mean he didn't.

I'll do you the courtesy of taking this seriously for a second.

Elan had no idea what Nale was up to when Thog knocked him out. That was the last moment when Elan had a chance to influence the course of events before he ended up in a Cliffport jail cell. If he were Tarquin--hell, if he were BATMAN, he still couldn't have planned things out as they happened.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'll do you the courtesy of taking this seriously for a second.

Elan had no idea what Nale was up to when Nale knocked him out. That was the last moment when Elan had a chance to influence the course of events before he ended up in a Cliffport jail cell. If he were Tarquin--hell, if he were BATMAN, he still couldn't have planned things out as they happened.
Psst, Math_Mage, since the evening of 5 April 2012, if a character is deemed to be savvy to the genre to any extent, it is assumed that that character is also omniscient. Did you not get the memo?

[Forikroder]

Psst, Math_Mage, since the evening of 5 April 2012, if a character is deemed to be savvy to the genre to any extent, it is assumed that that character is also omniscient. Did you not get the memo?

its so annoying how people use that as a catch all like being genry savvy means you can see the future and predict everything thats going to happen before it actually does

[Euodiachloris]

Uh... guys?

The line between Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) and Wrong Genre Savvy (WrongGenreSavvy) can be a narrow one. And, both Elan AND Nale have, on occasion, been both. (Mental note: note down Nale examples, e.g. his whole foil idea, and input into WGS when I have some time.) But Elan tends to suffer more under the Wrong file than his brother does (usually for comedic effect, but, drama does rear its head). Tarquin might also fall into this trap if he tries to fight a trope-battle out with either son (or both).

This fine line means... well... Fun times ahead. :smallcool:

I think I'll shut up about tropes now, or get shot. :smallwink:

But, I thought I'd just put that out there. :smallbiggrin:

[kickassfrog]

Uh... guys?

The line between Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy) and Wrong Genre Savvy (WrongGenreSavvy) can be a narrow one. And, both Elan AND Nale have, on occasion, been both. (Mental note: note down Nale examples, e.g. his whole foil idea, and input into WGS when I have some time.) But Elan tends to suffer more under the Wrong file than his brother does (usually for comedic effect, but, drama does rear its head). Tarquin might also fall into this trap if he tries to fight a trope-battle out with either son (or both).

This fine line means... well... Fun times ahead. :smallcool:

I think I'll shut up about tropes now, or get shot. :smallwink:

But, I thought I'd just put that out there. :smallbiggrin:

Cue link to the giant saying he doesn't use tv tropes.
Also, I think T has been around long enough to avoid falling into being wrong genre savvy.
He literally wrote the guide for his guards.
Edit: and by predicting it, I prevented it.

[Kish]

The guide didn't actually help the guards. Would not have actually helped the guards even had Elan not had the philtrepotion of Glibness, since the lies only let Haley and Elan get out of having to kill them. So, if you want to be strictly accurate, the guide could certainly be said to be Wrong Genre Savvy, being aimed at the "The heroes are all about stealth and cleverness and you can lock them up if you catch them" genre, not the "This is an action movie and they'll slaughter you if you catch them" genre.

[kickassfrog]

The guide didn't actually help the guards. Would not have actually helped the guards even had Elan not had the philtrepotion of Glibness, since the lies only let Haley and Elan get out of having to kill them. So, if you want to be strictly accurate, the guide could certainly be said to be Wrong Genre Savvy, being aimed at the "The heroes are all about stealth and cleverness and you can lock them up if you catch them" genre, not the "This is an action movie and they'll slaughter you if you catch them" genre.

Presumably if he'd taught them to introduce themselves by name and include a snippet about themselves, the heroes would be less likely to slaughter them.
But we only saw one small page of it, which seemed to know the exact strategy that the heroes did employ, so I'm going to say that is genre savvy.
Besides, the order had no reason to kill the guards. Besides Belkar.

[Redgoblin]

Somewhat more directed to the OP than to recent posts, I don't see any reason Nale would expect Team Evil to show up. The last time he saw them, they were overrunning Azure City with its gate in tact. I see no reason why he would think TE would leave their new stronghold, complete with gate to pursue a second gate (although I'd love to hear why people think he would).

Therefore, I suspect Nale just wants control over a gate so that he has a way to negotiate with Team Evil on an even footing (remember, he still thinks its just an over-sized nuke).

[Forikroder]

Somewhat more directed to the OP than to recent posts, I don't see any reason Nale would expect Team Evil to show up. The last time he saw them, they were overrunning Azure City with its gate in tact. I see no reason why he would think TE would leave their new stronghold, complete with gate to pursue a second gate (although I'd love to hear why people think he would).

Therefore, I suspect Nale just wants control over a gate so that he has a way to negotiate with Team Evil on an even footing (remember, he still thinks its just an over-sized nuke).

while i dont think nale does know for sure if team evil is going to arrive, its pretty easy to assume that since the OoTS is in the desert they either defeated Xykon or they think thats where Xykon is going next so its easy to assume that the Azure city gate has fallen even assuming he never once attempted to scry or gain any information about azure city

plus at some point while masquerading as Elan Roy might ahve said how the oracle said Xykon was going to girards gate next

[Psychonaut]

Nale doesn't take orders from Sabine--she's the one who always asks HIM what they're doing next. And Sabine doesn't take orders from the IFCC anymore, per her conversation with Qarr.

What makes you think she doesn't take orders from the IFCC anymore? From the strip in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html):


[After arguing about Nale's failed ambush and whether Sabine could have prevented it]

Sabine: That's not the way our relationship works.

Qarr: Uh huh. Just remember your pre-existing relationship to the three gentlemen downstairs.

Sabine: I've never forgotten it. You don't know what my orders are, Qarr. I'm doing my job in my own way. Concentrate on doing yours.

Qarr: Whatever, Sabine. All I know is that the last bad girl I met that chose that stupid mortal face over her master - let's just say it didn't end well for her.

Sabine: Go to Hell, imp.

Qarr: Was just headed there now. I'll give your love to the Directors.

Nothing in that exchange indicates a conclusive break from the IFCC. It sets up tensions between her loyalty to the IFCC and her loyalty to Nale that will most likely result in her having to choose a side at some point, but we're not to that point yet.

The last two panels feature her saying "Right behind you, honey. ...All the way" to Nale, but I read the pause and her expression in the penultimate panel as suggesting that she's experiencing doubts.

She may be torn about her allegiances, but she hasn't broken off either of them yet.

[Winter]

She may be torn about her allegiances, but she hasn't broken off either of them yet.

I agree. Sabine is still going to follow her instructions from the IFCC. So unless something comes up that forces her to chose between Nale and the IFCC, she'll stay loyal.

Of course, this very probably is a setup for just such a scene but she cannot know that. That is completely OOC-Trope-Knowledge that we have here. Qarr "fears" such a scene might come up but from Sabine's perspective it is very unlikely this happens (remember she does not have any deeper insight into the IFCC's plans for the gates, the LG, anything).

So from her perspective it is very reasonable to just dismiss Qarr here as she has no indication her loyalty might cause a problem with her relationsip with Nale.

[AgentofHellfire]

I'll do you the courtesy of taking this seriously for a second.

Elan had no idea what Nale was up to when Thog knocked him out. That was the last moment when Elan had a chance to influence the course of events before he ended up in a Cliffport jail cell. If he were Tarquin--hell, if he were BATMAN, he still couldn't have planned things out as they happened.

Are you seriously forgetting the fact that he not only could easily have but did come up with a plan that was literally one sentence away from working, and that Nale screwed up his plan by leaving Thog of all people to watch Elan?

And the whole mess with Sabine?

Genre Savvy doesn't mean "omniscient", but Elan used narrative structure to his benefit quite a bit.

[Forikroder]

Are you seriously forgetting the fact that he not only could easily have but did come up with a plan that was literally one sentence away from working, and that Nale screwed up his plan by leaving Thog of all people to watch Elan?

And the whole mess with Sabine?

Genre Savvy doesn't mean "omniscient", but Elan used narrative structure to his benefit quite a bit.

Thog was the only person he could leave to watch him

oh wait, aside from the two henchman he left in cliffport who abandoned him and didnt stop Elan from ascaping

aside from them though

and what mess with sabine exactly?

and the only time weve seen elan really demonstrate his genre savvyness it was to explain to nale how it was impossible for him to realise nale was alive because the good guy always assumes the bad guy is dead

[AgentofHellfire]

Thog was the only person he could leave to watch him

oh wait, aside from the two henchman he left in cliffport who abandoned him and didnt stop Elan from ascaping

aside from them though

Or just the normal prison guards, who would actually be less likely to screw things up. Because they, while not intelligent, aren't man-children.


and what mess with sabine exactly?

Right here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0385.html)


and the only time weve seen elan really demonstrate his genre savvyness it was to explain to nale how it was impossible for him to realise nale was alive because the good guy always assumes the bad guy is dead

Also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html).

And while this isn't genre-savvyness, he demonstrates more intelligence than he lets on here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html). Also earlier than that while they were still in Tarquin's Kingdom, but...

Admittedly, Nale's screw-ups aren't really any more indications of stupidity than Elan's, but...still, Elan did not have to be omniscient to outwit Nale.

[Forikroder]

Or just the normal prison guards, who would actually be less likely to screw things up. Because they, while not intelligent, aren't man-children.

i dont even get what you mean by this, are you saying he should ahve hired prison guards?


Right here.

and thats nale fault how exactly?

[AgentofHellfire]

i dont even get what you mean by this, are you saying he should ahve hired prison guards?

No, he should have just trusted the people at that prison to keep Elan in there.




and thats nale fault how exactly?

He's the one who decided to cheat on a being cosmically written to want everything for herself.

Again, I've changed my viewpoint on this, Nale's fairly smart. Just no smarter than Elan.

[Math_Mage]

Are you seriously forgetting the fact that he not only could easily have but did come up with a plan that was literally one sentence away from working, and that Nale screwed up his plan by leaving Thog of all people to watch Elan?

And the whole mess with Sabine?

Genre Savvy doesn't mean "omniscient", but Elan used narrative structure to his benefit quite a bit.

I think you're missing my point here. Elan's escape and return to Azure City weren't moves in the game against Nale's intellect, they were moves made to GET BACK TO the game.

Let's review. First Nale outsmarted the Order in general, and Roy in particular, by creating a massive diversion involving Julia and Leeky in order to get at Elan. Then Elan outsmarted Thog and some guards and almost got back to Azure City (and did, with Julio's help). Then V outsmarted Nale with the whole 'good twin, bad twin' routine. But at no point in this whole story was Elan even matching wits with Nale. How can there be a victory or defeat when there was no contest? If anyone claims that Nale is less intelligent than Elan based on this arc, I have a better claim that Nale is more intelligent than Roy, because at least Nale and Roy actually engaged each other on a tactical and strategic level.

Now, if Elan had LET Nale execute the plan to lock him up in Cliffport knowing that he could free himself and get back to Azure City, THAT would be outsmarting Nale, because it would be anticipating and countering his plan. But as I said before, NOBODY could have done that, and Elan least of all, mastery of narrative structure or no.


Again, I've changed my viewpoint on this, Nale's fairly smart. Just no smarter than Elan.

Since Elan doesn't even have the intelligence to cast a single cantrip, those two statements are rather contradictory.


What makes you think she doesn't take orders from the IFCC anymore? From the strip in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html):



Nothing in that exchange indicates a conclusive break from the IFCC. It sets up tensions between her loyalty to the IFCC and her loyalty to Nale that will most likely result in her having to choose a side at some point, but we're not to that point yet.

The last two panels feature her saying "Right behind you, honey. ...All the way" to Nale, but I read the pause and her expression in the penultimate panel as suggesting that she's experiencing doubts.

She may be torn about her allegiances, but she hasn't broken off either of them yet.

My reading of that scene is that she's set herself up to choose Nale over the IFCC should that choice arise. I'm willing to concede that she can make that choice while still taking direction from the IFCC, but that's going to change the moment a conflict between their goals forces her hand.

In any case, the salient point for this thread is that Sabine is not an intermediary delivering the IFCC's orders to Nale, and Nale is not a mere stooge of the IFCC without his own plans, goals, or ideas.

[Forikroder]

No, he should have just trusted the people at that prison to keep Elan in there.

so what have Thog multiclass rogue and sneak his way out before the police got there?


He's the one who decided to cheat on a being cosmically written to want everything for herself.

Again, I've changed my viewpoint on this, Nale's fairly smart. Just no smarter than Elan.

he didnt cheat sabine just misunderstood the situation

[ti'esar]

he didnt cheat sabine just misunderstood the situation

He was going to "cheat" by killing Haley himself rather then letting Sabine do it - it's obvious the story he gives about "we'll kill her together" was a way to talk his way out of the situation and not his plan from the start.

Also, and unrelated to the actual content of your post: can you please start using the "shift" key? It's becoming genuinely painful to read your posts due to the constant lack of capitalization.

[Winter]

Also, and unrelated to the actual content of your post: can you please start using the "shift" key? It's becoming genuinely painful to read your posts due to the constant lack of capitalization.

Sidenote: I asked that same of him twice (+ to use some punctuation at the end of a sentence) and he chose to ignore it twice. I then respected that choice and stopped asking/bothering but put him on ignore, so unless someone quotes him, there's no need to read, as you put it,"painful" things. (This is just a suggestion how to deal with this).

Realnote: As for Nale's plan, I still think we have to wait until he makes a move so we can determine if he has a new plan, what it might be, and when it might have formed. Right now, I'm either in the "he does not have a plan and rolls within" camp or, as outlined, in the camp we simply cannot know at this stage. We have not seen new information since Nale's last plan failed. In fact, we also saw his escape after that failed plan fail.
Right now, he's more prisoner than anything, he just does not know it.

If comics from 851 onwards will change this, well, that is to be seen in the upcoming comics.

[Forikroder]

Sidenote: I asked that same of him twice (+ to use some punctuation at the end of a sentence) and he chose to ignore it twice. I then respected that choice and stopped asking/bothering but put him on ignore, so unless someone quotes him, there's no need to read, as you put it,"painful" things. (This is just a suggestion how to deal with this).

this is my heart <3

this is you breaking it </ /3

[jidasfire]

It's hard to say exactly what Nale's ultimate scheme is, because it's hard to know exactly how much he knows about his opponents. Back when Xykon and Nale made their villainous pact, it wasn't really clear that Xykon and Redcloak were as powerful as we now know them to be, and they've only gotten tougher since. If he assumes Team Evil is just going to hand over the information he wants, or even that Tarquin and Malack are strong enough to beat them, he's in for a rude awakening. If he knows, even approximately, how strong they are, he's probably playing some other game.

For the sake of argument, let's assume Nale does know the relative power of all his rivals here. He might also know that this presents a unique opportunity for him. The Order of the Stick, his father, and Team Evil are all converging in one place, searching for the Gate. Perhaps Nale is crafty enough to know that he can't properly use the Gate to leverage power himself, and he does believe his father already has enough power to rule the world if he would simply use it. So perhaps hunting the Gate is merely a smokescreen, a way for Nale to keep his rivals fighting one another so he can destroy the Gate and kill them all in one fell swoop, then using his father's empire to actually achieve his goals.

Just a guess, but it is nice and complicated, the way he likes it.

[Steward]

That's really a pretty believable alternative. I like that it doesn't rely on Nale having preternatural knowledge. He's probably reasonably confident that Xykon is an extremely powerful magician. He doesn't have the exact levels but he's probably at least a match for Tarquin if only because he's strong enough to command an entire fortress full of goblins and undead. Even if Xykon was slightly weaker than Tarquin, fighting him would probably weaken Tarquin significantly, giving Nale an edge.

[ti'esar]

For the sake of argument, let's assume Nale does know the relative power of all his rivals here. He might also know that this presents a unique opportunity for him. The Order of the Stick, his father, and Team Evil are all converging in one place, searching for the Gate. Perhaps Nale is crafty enough to know that he can't properly use the Gate to leverage power himself, and he does believe his father already has enough power to rule the world if he would simply use it. So perhaps hunting the Gate is merely a smokescreen, a way for Nale to keep his rivals fighting one another so he can destroy the Gate and kill them all in one fell swoop, then using his father's empire to actually achieve his goals.

Just a guess, but it is nice and complicated, the way he likes it.

I've also suspected this, although I'm still on the fence as to whether it's actually what's going on, and I'd add to it that Nale's goals have generally been primarily focused on personal revenge anyway - he's spent most of the comic trying to achieve no grander goal then killing the Order, and I suspect that even his previous plan of unseating his father may have been more out of a personal vendetta then any genuine desire to rule an empire. So, an outcome that leaves Nale without a Gate, but Tarquin and Elan dead - as this plan would if successful - is really an optimal one for him all by itself.

[Forikroder]

It's hard to say exactly what Nale's ultimate scheme is, because it's hard to know exactly how much he knows about his opponents. Back when Xykon and Nale made their villainous pact, it wasn't really clear that Xykon and Redcloak were as powerful as we now know them to be, and they've only gotten tougher since. If he assumes Team Evil is just going to hand over the information he wants, or even that Tarquin and Malack are strong enough to beat them, he's in for a rude awakening. If he knows, even approximately, how strong they are, he's probably playing some other game.

For the sake of argument, let's assume Nale does know the relative power of all his rivals here. He might also know that this presents a unique opportunity for him. The Order of the Stick, his father, and Team Evil are all converging in one place, searching for the Gate. Perhaps Nale is crafty enough to know that he can't properly use the Gate to leverage power himself, and he does believe his father already has enough power to rule the world if he would simply use it. So perhaps hunting the Gate is merely a smokescreen, a way for Nale to keep his rivals fighting one another so he can destroy the Gate and kill them all in one fell swoop, then using his father's empire to actually achieve his goals.

Just a guess, but it is nice and complicated, the way he likes it.

only thing is though i dont see how hed ever survive doing that, hed need some way to trick them all to be right next to the gate and destroy it in a way that hes outside the blast radius

plus he cant just waltz into the Empire of Blood and take over, hed need to work out how to deal with Tarquins other 4 party members who may have the resources to ressurect Tarquin and Malack so they can just take there seat back from Nale by force

[ti'esar]

only thing is though i dont see how hed ever survive doing that, hed need some way to trick them all to be right next to the gate and destroy it in a way that hes outside the blast radius

Well, the LG's arcane caster is one of "his" people, and we have no reason to believe that Z can't cast Teleport. But I agree, it's not a perfect plan - but as this thread has belabored, since when has Nale been a perfect planner?

[Onyavar]

The opinion in this thread that convinced me most is that Nale doesn't plan ahead at the moment, and will use his first opportunity to get out of the reach of Malack and Tarquin. If this is not possible, he will continue tu play along, pretending he knows how to conquer the gate.

What interests me more is the plan of Tarquin!
- His plan is: Fight Roy.

That seems to be it. He has no interest in killing Elan on his way... I think it's even more likely that he wants to test Roys capability of strategy while fiercely protecting Elan (since he hired Roy to do that).
Tarquin has expressed interest in taking the Gate, but let's be honest here. He doesn't know with which forces he has to deal with. And it seems like he doesn't even care. Two days spent with Nale, and he didn't require more information than "a previous partner of mine knows how to control it"? For a strategic thinker like Tarquin most certainly is, thats poor planning. Sure, he gave command to Nale, but this means he doesn't plan for himself?? Tsts.

My guess is that he wants to prove to Roy that he himself (with a little aid from the LG circling above) can take the OotS apart. I would expect him to reveal himself afterwards and telling them about how they completed his test. (or at least, this might be HIS plan, but Team Evil appears before and forces everyone to cooperate suddenly.)

[Winter]

Actually, I think I just found one (not the only one!) reason for Tarquin to fight the order.

He wants Elan to fight him. I believe what he said there was true. What is still missing, from a dramatic point of view? Tarquin doing something horrible to one of Elan's friends. I doubt he goes for Haley, as he does seem to understand love (though in a twisted way).
Tarquin here is out to kill any friend of Elan (at best the cleric, to make it permanent, but given his promise to Malack, he'll have to pick someone else).

This means: Tarquin is down there to
a) fight Roy and
b) kill anyone of Elan's friends who is not Haley, Elan himself, or Durkon (and I'm not saying Durkon is save!).

[Chessgeek]

From my understanding, Nale reacted in 821 with a panic reaction to keep himself alive. (Does he even know about the "ritual to control the Snarl?") Of course, over the flight he had plenty of time to come up with a plan, so anything is possible.

Also, I don't think Nale is on great terms with Team Evil. Just based on the fact that he was hired to kill the OotS, and instead chose to work to his own goals and ultimately fail to kill them. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was my understanding of their falling out.

[Emperordaniel]

Somewhat more directed to the OP than to recent posts, I don't see any reason Nale would expect Team Evil to show up. The last time he saw them, they were overrunning Azure City with its gate in tact. I see no reason why he would think TE would leave their new stronghold, complete with gate to pursue a second gate (although I'd love to hear why people think he would).

Therefore, I suspect Nale just wants control over a gate so that he has a way to negotiate with Team Evil on an even footing (remember, he still thinks its just an over-sized nuke).

There is the possibility that Zz'dtri saw Elan's message (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html) when he scried on the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), in which case Nale could very well know that Team Evil is on their way here. :smallsmile:

[oppyu]

Actually, I think I just found one (not the only one!) reason for Tarquin to fight the order.

He wants Elan to fight him. I believe what he said there was true. What is still missing, from a dramatic point of view? Tarquin doing something horrible to one of Elan's friends. I doubt he goes for Haley, as he does seem to understand love (though in a twisted way).
Tarquin here is out to kill any friend of Elan (at best the cleric, to make it permanent, but given his promise to Malack, he'll have to pick someone else).

This means: Tarquin is down there to
a) fight Roy and
b) kill anyone of Elan's friends who is not Haley, Elan himself, or Durkon (and I'm not saying Durkon is save!).
Yes, because it's not like women in fictional media are often killed or injured to cause male characters emotional anguish. (http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/) In my opinion, it would be well within Tarquin's character to kill Haley simply to provide Elan with the emotional impetus he needs to take out his father.

[Winter]

Yes, because it's not like women in fictional media are often killed or injured to cause male characters emotional anguish. (http://www.unheardtaunts.com/wir/) In my opinion, it would be well within Tarquin's character to kill Haley simply to provide Elan with the emotional impetus he needs to take out his father.

Note Tarquin does genuinely like Elan and he does understand love. Therefore, I conclude he will not go for Haley in OotS. That's my interpretation, yours can vary.

And "Stuff happens in other media" is no proof at all. I'm not going to elaborate further there's also a lot of media out there where the Love Interest is not targeted in specific.

[Forikroder]

There is the possibility that Zz'dtri saw Elan's message when he scried on the Order, in which case Nale could very well know that Team Evil is on their way here.

not neccesarily since the message didnt include "we heard from this oracle that there is a 100% chance that Xykon would be coming to your gate before Kraagars and we have it on good authority that hes going to be moving out in a short amount of time" so Nale could just as easily interpret it as them going to the 2 remaining gates to raise the warning flames instead of them knowing which gate specifically Xykons after next

although since he masqueraded as Elan after they went to the oracle he definently knows Xykon is going to Girards gate first


Actually, I think I just found one (not the only one!) reason for Tarquin to fight the order.

He wants Elan to fight him. I believe what he said there was true. What is still missing, from a dramatic point of view? Tarquin doing something horrible to one of Elan's friends. I doubt he goes for Haley, as he does seem to understand love (though in a twisted way).
Tarquin here is out to kill any friend of Elan (at best the cleric, to make it permanent, but given his promise to Malack, he'll have to pick someone else).

This means: Tarquin is down there to
a) fight Roy and
b) kill anyone of Elan's friends who is not Haley, Elan himself, or Durkon (and I'm not saying Durkon is save!).

right that way Elan can be depressed for the whole 10 minute cast time of ressurection

death means next to nothing in the OoTS verse hed have to soul bind for it to matter

[Sunken Valley]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Nale's smarter than anyone guessed.

This might be wrong but it could be his plan:

The Lizardfolk ambassador kept wanting to talk the Empress. He may be a spy for Nale. He may be Nale's divine caster. Nale stayed in EoB because he knew that he had to wait for OOTS (dramatic convention says they show up). Then he attacks them in a deliberate ploy to reveal himself. He then tells Tarquin about the gate's, knowing his father will get greedy. This means he will make mistakes, like try to take the gate himself. Meanwhile, the ambassador tells the empress of the scam, meaning the Empress listens to Nale instead, rejecting Tarquin. No one will back Tarquin and Malack up because they are not supreme leaders, the Empress is. This fractures Tarquin's plans considerably.

Unless Tarquin is one step ahead...

[Forikroder]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Nale's smarter than anyone guessed.

This might be wrong but it could be his plan:

The Lizardfolk ambassador kept wanting to talk the Empress. He may be a spy for Nale. He may be Nale's divine caster. Nale stayed in EoB because he knew that he had to wait for OOTS (dramatic convention says they show up). Then he attacks them in a deliberate ploy to reveal himself. He then tells Tarquin about the gate's, knowing his father will get greedy. This means he will make mistakes, like try to take the gate himself. Meanwhile, the ambassador tells the empress of the scam, meaning the Empress listens to Nale instead, rejecting Tarquin. No one will back Tarquin and Malack up because they are not supreme leaders, the Empress is. This fractures Tarquin's plans considerably.

Unless Tarquin is one step ahead...
Sabine said they didnt have a divine spellcaster when they were going to engage Durkon, if they had a divine spellcaster he would have been around to help

also the empress wouldnt go against Tarquin so quickly shes not that smart and she may be the empress but the army is probably FAR more loyal to Tarquin

[Winter]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say Nale's smarter than anyone guessed.

Do you have any evidence for that? Note your new evidence must hold against the existing evidence the comic has brought up so far that Nale is not quite smart.

He might have some plan, yes. But even if that was true (which I doubt at this point), it'd be no evidence that Nale is "smarter than anyone guessed"*).

* Which in itself is probably quite hard as some people probably still consider him to be some Evil Genius (you know, because Nale said so).

[Zarzar]

To think Nale has any plan that isn't a Rube Goldberg machine designed on Escher paper is silly. He doesn't think long-term, really, unless it's a long-term solution to a short-term slight (see Elan, Tarquin, etc.).

And for ability scores, I've always assumed that Elan got the wisdom, and Nale had the intelligence. Elan being slightly ahead on Charisma, and Nale had a little better Strength and Dexterity. Since they are twins, I would assume their constitution would be similar (if not slightly higher for Nale due to living in desert conditions growing up).

Thus, having a wisdom score closer to Belkar, Nale would resort to having Sabine be the brains of the operation. And we all know that she's getting orders elsewhere (Despite the fact that she acts like she chooses Nale over work, she'd probably aim to try and accomplish both evil and sexy-evil).

In the end, Nale's "Plan" focuses on feeding the needs of the Linear Guild: Unnecessary, destructive conflict (Sabine, Thog), Nale's lust for power and personal gratification (Nale, Sabine), and ice cream (Thog, Sabine if there's whipped cream involved).

[Forikroder]

To think Nale has any plan that isn't a Rube Goldberg machine designed on Escher paper is silly. He doesn't think long-term, really, unless it's a long-term solution to a short-term slight (see Elan, Tarquin, etc.).

And for ability scores, I've always assumed that Elan got the wisdom, and Nale had the intelligence. Elan being slightly ahead on Charisma, and Nale had a little better Strength and Dexterity. Since they are twins, I would assume their constitution would be similar (if not slightly higher for Nale due to living in desert conditions growing up).

Thus, having a wisdom score closer to Belkar, Nale would resort to having Sabine be the brains of the operation. And we all know that she's getting orders elsewhere (Despite the fact that she acts like she chooses Nale over work, she'd probably aim to try and accomplish both evil and sexy-evil).

In the end, Nale's "Plan" focuses on feeding the needs of the Linear Guild: Unnecessary, destructive conflict (Sabine, Thog), Nale's lust for power and personal gratification (Nale, Sabine), and ice cream (Thog, Sabine if there's whipped cream involved).

that makes no sense why would Nale having a low wisdom mean he let Sabine do the planning? Sabine even saids that Nale does all the planning and trying to tell him waht to do is not how there relationship works

Nale thinks himself the smartest person on the planet why would he let someone far dumber then him make the plans?

[Zarzar]

I guess my understanding of wisdom scores is off, then. I assumed that Nale's inability to see anyone else as being remotely as "good" (not alignment) as him being rather, well, unwise. As well as his lack of spellcasting (which is likely due to his triple-classing more than wisdom scores).

And yes, he does do his own style of "planning", but it's more of short-term things. And for letting Sabine plan, I've always assumed that they did things together, and Sabine's a natural manipulator. Nale would never know that Sabine was doing any actual planning, since she enjoys seeing Nale live up to his evil potential (even if it means she doesn't get to take credit for things).

[Mike Havran]

Note Tarquin does genuinely like Elan and he does understand love. Therefore, I conclude he will not go for Haley in OotS. That's my interpretation, yours can vary.


Since Tarquin is the kind of a man that has already had 9 wives, tortured at least one of them in order to force her to marry him, and was willing to get married again one week after the funeral of his last wife, he doesn't view Elan's relationship with Haley the way Elan does. I think Haley is utterly disposable for him, as is anybody in the Order except Elan. Yet I don't think he goes for kill now, not until the Order finds the gate.

[Winter]

Nale does not have a shard of Wisdom, and neither does Elan.

Wisdom basically means what we would consider "Common Sense". If you want, Int is the ability to come up with a plan and Wis the ability to judge if it's a good or bad idea.

A university professor who only sits in his chamber and is the ace of his research but has no clue at all on life is someone with a high Int but a low Wis.
A farmer who has no education, has never learned to calculate or to think logically but who has a very deep grasp on how life works, who understands people might have high Wis and low Int.

Nale does have some decent Int (but he falsely thinks it's high) and a low Wisdom score, Elan has neither hight Int nor high Wisdom. Tarquin has a high Int and possibly a mediocre to ok-ish Wis.
All three have a lot of Cha (which is something unrelated to "mental abilities").

[oppyu]

Nale does have some decent Int (but he falsely thinks it's high) and a low Wisdom score, Elan has neither hight Int nor high Wisdom. Tarquin has a high Int and possibly a mediocre to ok-ish Wis.
All three have a lot of Cha (which is something unrelated to "mental abilities").
I would say Nale has high INT but no WIS. He has a superior capacity for advanced planning that should be reflected somehow in his ability scores, but lacks the common sense or grasp on reality to properly utilise it. Tarquin, I think, would have strong INT and WIS, there's no evidence thus far to suggest anything less. Elan still has the INT and WIS of soup, though.

[Chessgeek]

Elan still has the INT and WIS of soup.

That is an insult to a soup's INT and WIS scores.

[balladfen]

[...]his lack of spellcasting (which is likely due to his triple-classing more than wisdom scores.
His spellcasting class is sorcerer. Wisdom has nothing to do with a sorcerer's spellcasting.

[martianmister]

That is an insult to a soup's INT and WIS scores.

That is an insult to a Elan's INT and WIS scores.

[Chessgeek]

That is an insult to a Elan's INT and WIS scores.

...I think I will make my text green when I'm joking from this point on.
Also, that would be an Elan's INT and WIS scores.

[martianmister]

...I think I will make my text green when I'm joking from this point on.
Also, that would be an Elan's INT and WIS scores.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elan

[Zarzar]

His spellcasting class is sorcerer. Wisdom has nothing to do with a sorcerer's spellcasting.

Ah yes. My familiarity with the less "beat stuff in face" stats isn't probably up to the same par that others on the forum have. I tend to play characters more of the fighter or rogue variety, but without the awesome stat rolls that Roy got. >.>

[Murray]

As much as I like soup, I do find tomato soup a little lacking in substance. :smallwink:

I think Nale's terrible at improvising, and that's why he keeps mucking up, and being left as a B-grade (or even C-grade) villain. By contrast, Elan is pretty good at improvising.

I'd be surprised if Nale hasn't spent two days coming up with a foolish plan to turn the tables on Malack & Tarquin, but I feel like there are other cards up his sleeves that we don't know about just yet. Also, would Nale use Tarquin's plan of seizing the prize at the last minute to his own benefit, with the intent of mocking his father by defeating him with his own plan?

[Chessgeek]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elan

Teehee.
But the original post was about Elan the character in Rich Burlew's webcomic, The Order of the Stick, not a critter from D&D.
Were it about the species, it would have read something like "Elans still have the INT and WIS of soup, though."

[Euodiachloris]

Also, would Nale use Tarquin's plan of seizing the prize at the last minute to his own benefit, with the intent of mocking his father by defeating him with his own plan?

And be seen coming a mile away. :smalltongue: I think Tarquin's well acquainted with his darling boy's tendency to back-stab and has something in mind for that eventuality. And, probably another lecture all written up, as well. :smallsigh:

[Murray]

And be seen coming a mile away. :smalltongue: I think Tarquin's well acquainted with his darling boy's tendency to back-stab and has something in mind for that eventuality. And, probably another lecture all written up, as well. :smallsigh:

Hey, "What's Nale's Plan" and "Will Nale's Plan Actually Work?" could easily be two separate topics. :smallwink:

Nale knows that he's on borrowed time, and after (if) the gate is secured, then his head is back on the chopping block. He usually has exit strategies ready, but the gate seems simply too powerful for him to up and abandon. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have something planned to take out Malack and probably Tarquin during or after the fight with the OotS. Nale has been handed a perfectly good opportunity to backstab his allies, and very strong motivation to do it. And I thought that stabbing his father in the back with his own plan sounds like something that would suit Nale's smug ego. :smallsmile:

Further rash speculation: If Nale does gain control of the gate, then what? Does the IFCC back him up with enough hired guns to hold off Xykon, did they give him a ritual of their own, or is Nale truly foolish enough to think he can bargain with Xykon? Or has his plan now turned to blowing up this gate and trying for the next one on the list, since that could be where the real bargaining power is?

[Zarzar]

Honestly, I don't think Nale wants any of the gates. I think he's in it right now to destroy the Order of the Stick for embarrasing him.

As for how Nale gets rid of Tarquin/Malack, there is the fact that Nale did work for Xykon back in the day. Xykon might actually remember Nale as one of the few humans that didn't become "Life-Drain Jerky (c)" and not kill him on sight.

Tarquin, as well as Malack, would recognize serious threats to their own personal well being, and negotiate the terms of the rift's "purchase" by Xykon (Which, by purchase, I mean, happily give to for the expressed price of "Ohgodpleasedon'tkillme", but not in as many words, mind you).

In the interim, Nale would escape, and Tarquin would do a Roy-esque facepalm at the entire situation. Malack would again curse the fruits of Tarquin's loin, and go back to worshipping his deity back at the EoB.

[Gift Jeraff]

Yeah, using Xykon seems like the best way for Nale to get Tarquin out of the picture.

"Hey, this guy calls himself a villain, says evil is just a word no different from good, helped out the good guys, values crap like family and friendship, and if you kill him, you'll get one of the largest armies in the world."

As for how he'll keep himself alive against Xykon, I don't know. He does have a tendency to keep minions around despite being mostly useless, though they tend to serve as a contingency plan for Redcloak's loyalty (MitD and Right-Eye in SoD, threatening to give Jirix the mantle, and giving Tsukiko his half of the ritual).

[Forikroder]

Yeah, using Xykon seems like the best way for Nale to get Tarquin out of the picture.

"Hey, this guy calls himself a villain, says evil is just a word no different from good, helped out the good guys, values crap like family and friendship, and if you kill him, you'll get one of the largest armies in the world."

As for how he'll keep himself alive against Xykon, I don't know. He does have a tendency to keep minions around despite being mostly useless, though they tend to serve as a contingency plan for Redcloak's loyalty (MitD and Right-Eye in SoD, threatening to give Jirix the mantle, and giving Tsukiko his half of the ritual).

Xykon left one of the largest armies in the world because he didnt need it...

and Tarquin and Xykon would totally hit it off

[Gift Jeraff]

and Tarquin and Xykon would totally hit it offBecause Tarquin does just about everything in Colonel Xykon's recipe for villainy wrong, or just because you like to have a contrary opinion to everyone?

[Forikroder]

Because Tarquin does just about everything in Colonel Xykon's recipe for villainy wrong, or just because you like to have a contrary opinion to everyone?

well im pretty sure Xykon would enjoy his burning of escaped slaves to send a welcome home (sorta) message to his son >.>

i jsut think Tarquin and Xykon act alot alike, there completely brutal and merciless but still enjoy having a good laugh

[Kish]

I do not believe Xykon "hitting it off" with anyone would be relevant. Even if he "liked" Tarquin, insofar as he's capable of liking anyone at this juncture, his mental calculation would go, rather, "Does it particularly and compellingly benefit me if this person lives? No? Then he dies, immediately. Pity, he was kind of amusing."

[Forikroder]

I do not believe Xykon "hitting it off" with anyone would be relevant. Even if he "liked" Tarquin, insofar as he's capable of liking anyone at this juncture, his mental calculation would go, rather, "Does it particularly and compelling benefit me if this person lives? No? Then he dies, immediately. Pity, he was kind of amusing."
which is why he killed Roy instantly they first time they met amirite?

oh wait he jsut had a nice conversation with him then went to grandstand

[oppyu]

Just a thought, what if Nale's plan isn't some kind of ridiculously complicated machination that ends with everyone dead and him as king of the world? It's possible that he'll demonstrate character growth, and come up with the plan of 'Tarquin, Malack and Kilkil are engaging a far superior enemy (Team Evil), so I'm gonna take Sabine and run like hell'. Maybe he'd even do it without a villainous quip.

[Forikroder]

Just a thought, what if Nale's plan isn't some kind of ridiculously complicated machination that ends with everyone dead and him as king of the world? It's possible that he'll demonstrate character growth, and come up with the plan of 'Tarquin, Malack and Kilkil are engaging a far superior enemy (Team Evil), so I'm gonna take Sabine and run like hell'. Maybe he'd even do it without a villainous quip.

i suppose its possible, but its jsut as likely as V waking up and finding the hand of Vekna in the pit and using it to kill Xykon

[oppyu]

i suppose its possible, but its jsut as likely as V waking up and finding the hand of Vekna in the pit and using it to kill Xykon
Perhaps, but I really want Nale to make it somehow. There's something about a dashing mass-murderer trying to make it as an B-list villain, despite the odds being massively against his survival and all the other villains being more powerful, and having superior resources and organisational skills.

[Forikroder]

Perhaps, but I really want Nale to make it somehow. There's something about a dashing mass-murderer trying to make it as an B-list villain, despite the odds being massively against his survival and all the other villains being more powerful, and having superior resources and organisational skills.

your probably one of the few people who actually want to see such an annoying character survive

[oppyu]

He's the classic underdog; as incompetent as the main heroes, but without as much plot armour in a series that is not shy about killing minor characters. Anyone can be a good villain with Tarquin's brain or Xykon's unrelenting power, but it takes a scrapper to stick around with Nale's low, low wisdom score.

[Forikroder]

He's the classic underdog; as incompetent as the main heroes, but without as much plot armour in a series that is not shy about killing minor characters. Anyone can be a good villain with Tarquin's brain or Xykon's unrelenting power, but it takes a scrapper to stick around with Nale's low, low wisdom score.

none of that is good things though, noone likes villain underdogs who cares if the villain is struggling to get by? who cares if the villain is having a hard time getting things done? noone, wanna know why? because the underdog can work for heros because the hero wins in the end the villain doesnt, Nale always loses and he loses because he has no redeemable or special quality so its jsut annoying watching him lose because hes simply inferioir to the order in every way so whenever he show up we know were in for an annoying few strips of him being annoying and some good jokes before he gets beaten like team rocket and were rid of him for a while

[ti'esar]

He's the classic underdog; as incompetent as the main heroes, but without as much plot armour in a series that is not shy about killing minor characters. Anyone can be a good villain with Tarquin's brain or Xykon's unrelenting power, but it takes a scrapper to stick around with Nale's low, low wisdom score.

I actually agree. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm rooting for Nale in any sense, but I like him a lot more than a lot of people on here do (probably more than I like Tarquin, in fact).

[Gift Jeraff]

Although I've been a fan of Nale wisening up and outsmarting Tarquin the moment Tarquin said Nale doesn't count as a villain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), I'm starting to think he won't necessarily outsmart Tarquin, but rather "outevil" him. That is, he'll do something that even Tarquin wouldn't do (such as selling out his entire party, including Sabine), and that will be what puts him in the Captial E Evil league and makes Tarquin, in Xykon's words, "the bitch."

[Ellye]

Although I've been a fan of Nale wisening up and outsmarting Tarquin the moment Tarquin said Nale doesn't count as a villain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), I'm starting to think he won't necessarily outsmart Tarquin, but rather "outevil" him. That is, he'll do something that even Tarquin wouldn't do (such as selling out his entire party, including Sabine), and that will be what puts him in the Captial E Evil league and makes Tarquin, in Xykon's words, "the bitch."Seems possible. Nale is very likely "more evil' than Tarquin, so this could be a possibility.

[Forikroder]

Although I've been a fan of Nale wisening up and outsmarting Tarquin the moment Tarquin said Nale doesn't count as a villain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html), I'm starting to think he won't necessarily outsmart Tarquin, but rather "outevil" him. That is, he'll do something that even Tarquin wouldn't do (such as selling out his entire party, including Sabine), and that will be what puts him in the Captial E Evil league and makes Tarquin, in Xykon's words, "the bitch."

i dont think Nale has the capability to out evil Tarquin after his burning the slaves and making Enor an Ganji fight

[oppyu]

Yeah, I see two happy endings for Nale that I'm hoping for.

1) The aforementioned 'Screw This, I'm Outta Here' scenario, where Nale runs off to a quiet town, performs some ritual sacrifices with Sabine, reads 'The Art of War' a few dozen times and hopefully becomes competent.

2) Nale makes it past Xykon, Redcloak and Tarquin, either by Steven Bradbury (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAADWfJO2qM)-ing them or some shockingly brilliant villainy and is killed (by the Order or the Snarl) as the ultimate Big Bad of the series.

[Gift Jeraff]

i dont think Nale has the capability to out evil Tarquin after his burning the slaves and making Enor an Ganji fightBoth of those were gifts for someone Tarquin loves (Elan). The mere fact that Tarquin has people he genuinely cares for means there are limits to his evilness (for example, he probably wouldn't torture both Elan and Malack for a quick buck), whereas I don't think Nale has those limits (depending on how he feels about Sabine).

In a "video game-y karmic meter sense," I'm sure Tarquin is more evil than Nale, by virtue of being older, more powerful, having more resources, and because his empires are racking up evil points while he's sleeping. In a "Who has more capacity for pure evilness?," I'd say it's Nale. Word of God even says "Nale may be infinitely less powerful than Xykon, but he's no less evil, in my opinion."

[SoD]:xykon: "It's not just about raw power, it's also about how far you're willing to debase yourself before feeling bad. [...] That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny, "evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html), but for a good cause (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)," crap."

[Euodiachloris]

The mere fact that Tarquin has people he genuinely cares for means there are limits to his evilness (for example, he probably wouldn't torture both Elan and Malack for a quick buck), whereas I don't think Nale has those limits (depending on how he feels about Sabine).

Tarquin gives every sign of being able to cut his losses. I get the feeling that Nale's number is up once all this is done, unless he really pulls something spectacular off. After all, his whole schtick is following the disposable leader. Currently, that's Nale.

Considering Tarquin's less-than-lengthy mourning period over Penelope, the way he uped and left Elan's mum (if she hadn't have had Elan to care for, I doubt she'd be in one piece: I think he left her simply so she could bring Elan up for the later dramatic plot-development implicit in having an anonymous twin son out there), not to mention the other wives... um... I think he can turn off the lovey-dovey and slit the throats of his nearest and dearest, if it becomes necessary.

He just has hopes that Nale will wise up before he has to kill him and becomes the Evil Overlord he feels he has the potential to become. That's all. And, if killing Elan becomes more important than the projected plot-arch he has in mind, I'd not put it past him to do so.

What is more evil? A guy who can genuinely feel for you and, yet, still knifes you in the back when he suddenly decides he needs to? Or, the guy who doesn't care from the start?

One just has limits he can choose to break at need. The other? Not. The active choice to break ethical limits would count as a more evil thing in my book.

[Gift Jeraff]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that--for me, it's the guy who never had any qualms to begin with.

Even if he would kill Elan, he'd only do it under the right circumstances, and he'd probably try to minimize the suffering. Nale tries to make people suffer for the pettiest of reasons.

Of course, Tarquin's made plenty of people suffer terribly, but that's not his main goal. Making people he hates suffer is pretty much what Nale lives for, as far as I can tell. I guess the "why" is what it comes down to for me. Why are Xykon and Nale evil? Because they enjoy the idea of being Evil. Why are Redcloak and Tarquin evil? Because they see it as the most efficient way to get what they want. However, I'll admit I find the latter two more despicable, partly because they show signs of ethical limits and then choose to ignore them, but they still strike me as the lesser evils...I don't know if I'm making any sense...

And there's no indication that he's had any respect for his wives, so I wouldn't use them as examples of "nearest and dearest." Nale is probably a better example of someone really close to him that he might view as disposable.

[Murray]

Now, I'm someone who likes Tarquin,... but as a villain, he seems a little too stable to really amp things up. Too much of the Lawyer Evil version of Lawful Evil. He picks battles he's likely to win, and isn't trying to rule the world, just one war-torn continent. Tarquin's good at seeing his own limitations, and working with them.

Nale, like Xykon, has enough mental instability to be a loose cannon, and if Nale ever achieves real power, do you think he'll be as meticulous, organized and cold-hearted as his father? Or will he start lashing out wildly at people he perceives as enemies?

Being evil is one thing, being powerful enough and incompetent enough to accidentally destroy the world, that's a very special kind of threat.

[Forikroder]

Tarquin gives every sign of being able to cut his losses. I get the feeling that Nale's number is up once all this is done, unless he really pulls something spectacular off. After all, his whole schtick is following the disposable leader. Currently, that's Nale.

Considering Tarquin's less-than-lengthy mourning period over Penelope, the way he uped and left Elan's mum (if she hadn't have had Elan to care for, I doubt she'd be in one piece: I think he left her simply so she could bring Elan up for the later dramatic plot-development implicit in having an anonymous twin son out there), not to mention the other wives... um... I think he can turn off the lovey-dovey and slit the throats of his nearest and dearest, if it becomes necessary.

He just has hopes that Nale will wise up before he has to kill him and becomes the Evil Overlord he feels he has the potential to become. That's all. And, if killing Elan becomes more important than the projected plot-arch he has in mind, I'd not put it past him to do so.

What is more evil? A guy who can genuinely feel for you and, yet, still knifes you in the back when he suddenly decides he needs to? Or, the guy who doesn't care from the start?

One just has limits he can choose to break at need. The other? Not. The active choice to break ethical limits would count as a more evil thing in my book.
it doesnt matter if Nale somehow redeems himself in Tarquins eyes (not that i believe that is even possibly right now) Malack will still kill Nale and would probably take a swing at Tarquin if Tarquin protects him (and by swing i mean tear out his soul) Malack is (barely) holding himself back now because Nale has a use to there bussiness that only Nale can perform once Nale brings them to the gate and they find out how much he was bluffing Malack will kill him because Nale has no further use and Tarquin would probably be willing to hold him down

Tarquin puts more in his team and his goal then he does in Nale the only way Nales getting out alive is if he somehow escapes on his own despite all the people surrounding him that want him dead

[Winter]

"Nale with Power" will just provoke all kinds of people into having to "deal with him". He would not last for long. Nale needs to learn the same lesson Belkar learned from the Vision of Shojo. "Play the game or they will start to question why they sat down with you in the first place."

The same might happen to Xykon, the difference is that Xykon does have real power (due to his levels and his ability to really teleport out).

[Euodiachloris]

^^Thanks for saying what I was saying again, Forikroder. Very helpful.

I already said "Nale Is Toast" -- just saying why he wasn't toasted sooner. In short: why Tarquin held back before now. :smalltongue:

Malack is likely to get to poach him, then put Worcestershire Sauce over his corpse after it's been piled on toast.

[Chessgeek]

^^Thanks for saying what I was saying again, Forikroder. Very helpful.

I already said "Nale Is Toast" -- just saying why he wasn't toasted sooner. In short: why Tarquin held back before now. :smalltongue:

Malack is likely to get to poach him, then put Worcestershire Sauce over his corpse after it's been piled on toast.

After reading the common ingredients in Worcestershire Sauce, I think that would suit Malack's taste (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) perfectly.:smallsmile:

Edit: Although Mr. Scruffy seems to enjoy the tea (that is on the floor for some reason.)

[Euodiachloris]

After reading the common ingredients in Worcestershire Sauce, I think that would suit Malack's taste (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) perfectly.:smallsmile:

Edit: Although Mr. Scruffy seems to enjoy the tea that is on the floor for some reason.

There is nothing wrong with anchovies! And, anchovy essence is wonderful in stews and sandwiches. Or on toast. :smallwink:

*coughs*

<mutters about fermentation not being all that bad, really: people like soy sauce, for crying out loud>

[Chessgeek]

There is nothing wrong with anchovies! And, anchovy essence is wonderful in stews and sandwiches. Or on toast. :smallwink:

*coughs*

<mutters about fermentation not being all that bad, really: people like soy sauce, for crying out loud>

If you say so. I've never tried the stuff, but the combination of ingredients seems...unusual :smallyuk:.
(For the record, I am not a huge fan of soy sauce either.)

[Forikroder]

If you say so. I've never tried the stuff, but the combination of ingredients seems...unusual :smallyuk:.
(For the record, I am not a huge fan of soy sauce either.)

never read the ingredients in things unless youve been a cook for a long time you cant jsut look at some ingredients and immediately know if it works, ive tried some stuff that tasted amazing but made me gag when they said what all the mixed in it

and if you like Caeser salads..... theres anchovies in the dressing

[Chessgeek]

never read the ingredients in things unless youve been a cook for a long time you cant jsut look at some ingredients and immediately know if it works, ive tried some stuff that tasted amazing but made me gag when they said what all the mixed in it

1. Being a cook doesn't mean that you alone can have an opinion on the taste of food, or the taste of a hypothetical combination of ingredients. I could (I am not, but I could) be a cook with 25 years experience and still not like the way it tastes.

2. Several people regard it as disgusting. Malack and Mr. Scruffy like the tea, but Durkon hates it. Like I said, everyone isn't always going to like the same thing.

3. I prefer balsamic:smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

1. Being a cook doesn't mean that you alone can have an opinion on the taste of food, or the taste of a hypothetical combination of ingredients. I could (I am not, but I could) be a cook with 25 years experience and still not like the way it tastes.

2. Several people regard it as disgusting. Malack and Mr. Scruffy like the tea, but Durkon hates it. Like I said, everyone isn't always going to like the same thing.

3. I prefer balsamic:smallbiggrin:

not saying you would or wouldnt like it jsut dont let whats been put in something make you never try it theres some crazy combinations out there that taste delicious