Help with a Swordsage/critfish (3.5)

[ColossusCrusher]

So the group I'm playing with is considering doing a pirate campaign when we come back from summer break, and I'm really digging a crazy critfish build, mostly via Keen Kukris. The problem is that the obvious choice of taking a few levels in Bloodclaw Master reduces overall BAB and blocks me from the hilarity of Dual Boost (not probably an issue, but not being able to max out a class bothers me to some degree, and I know I need to get over that somehow).

The concept I have in mind is to make a TWF'er (obviously) that can bounce around the battlefield tearing into everything it sees, probably via abuse of Tiger Claw and the mobility maneuvers from Shadow Hand and Desert Wind. Since my group is pretty laid back it's probably not in my interest to come up with something hyper-optimized, but I would really appreciate some overall advice. I'm kinda new to D&D (the campaign I'm in now is my first, and this would be the fifth character I've made, and the first with multiclass considerations), so I'd also be pretty grateful for explanations above "tons of damage". :)

Thanks in advance!

[gorfnab]

Stance: Blood in the Water (ToB)
Feat: Lightning Maces (CW)
Kurkris with the Aptitude (ToB) weapon enhancement

[Malachei]

Because of the Swordsage's bad recovery mechanic, I'd dip Warblade for the maneuvers you expect to need multiple times per fight. I've often seen Swordsages between a rock and a hard place when deciding whether to spend the time to recover maneuvers or not.

[ColossusCrusher]

Because of the Swordsage's bad recovery mechanic, I'd dip Warblade for the maneuvers you expect to need multiple times per fight. I've often seen Swordsages between a rock and a hard place when deciding whether to spend the time to recover maneuvers or not.

For recovery I was just planning to grab Adaptive Style and be done with it. Humans get a bonus feat anyway. As for Lightning Maces/Aptitude, would you apply that before or after the Keen enhancement on the Kukris? I'm pretty sure we won't be starting with enough gold for two +3 weapons (and the +2 weapons only if we start at level 8).

[Malachei]

Adaptive Style is not enough to fix the issue. My point was based on a situation with Adaptive Style.

In short combats, you'll have no problem, but I've seen many Swordsages run out of maneuvers. You'll prepare a few counters and boosts, and have a few choice maneuvers. If there's a prolonged combat, it is likely you'll run out. In a party of four characters, taking a full-round action is a big pause, especially when a fight is on the edge (and it is in these fights you'll want to recover your best maneuvers).

[ColossusCrusher]

Adaptive Style is not enough. My point was based on a situation with Adaptive Style.

In short combats, you'll have no problem. but I've seen many Swordsages run out of maneuvers. You'll prepare a few counters and boosts, and have a few choice maneuvers. If there's a prolonged combat, it is likely you'll run out. In a party of four characters, taking a full-round action is a big pause, especially when a fight is on the edge (and it is in these fights you'll want to recover your best maneuvers).

Right. I just realized that I forgot to mention that our party is huge - we have two co-DMs who, if everyone shows up, have to deal with ~7 people each. Because of that losing a full round isn't as devastating as it is in a four person group.

Would you also recommend a two level dip into BCM for the removal of the -2/-2 TWF penalty?

[Malachei]

Yes, I would.

And I'd still dip Warblade, even in a large group :) Just because dipping is so good in ToB classes.

[ColossusCrusher]

So, assuming Swordsage X/BCM 2/Warblade Y, how would you go about dipping the Warblade? Would it be to grab some tasty Iron Heart maneuvers or just use it to buy the crazy stuff like Girallion Windmill Fleshrip, Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose and the like so that I can quickly reapply those ones? Warblade would also help with the slight loss of BAB from BCM, come to think of it.

And since I'm human, how would the XP penalty for the third class work out? Some of the more esoteric stuff regarding multiclassing confuses me.

[Dusk Eclipse]

First check if your group uses XP penalties as many groups tend to ignore them completely (they are awful and hurt melee characters the most, and by how they are written one could go class a 1/Class b 1/ Class c 1/class d 1/ class e 1/ and not suffer penalties); but if you are using them, by being human you can ignore the highest leveled class for the purpose of determining the penalty and Prestige classes, such as Blood claw master, never incur in multiclassing penalties (I think the rule is in the DMG; but I am not sure).

As for crit-fishing I highly suggest a dip into rogue or any other class that gives sneak attack at first level to be able to get the incredibly useful Craven feat (gives you your level in damage when making a sneak attack). That is because while Sneak attack die aren't multiplied on a crit, statical bonus like craven do get multiplied, on the same vein getting collision enhancement on your kukris might also be a good option once you can afford them (+2 equivalent, so it might be a while though) as they give you +5 damage to each attack).

Finally I highly recommend not to spend your feats on Improved Two weapon fighint and greater two weapon fighting, the first one can be accessed by a cheapish (~8K GP) magic item, Gloves of Balanced Hand (MIC) if you already have TWF (if not you get TWF) and the latter tends to be worthless, IME a single attack at -10 usually misses unless you have an extremely high attack bonus, which with a 3/4 BAB chassis I would doubt you have).

Hope that helps, TWF is my favourite combat style and it is very fun if you know what you are doing.

[Malachei]

First check if your group uses XP penalties

Good point. I often assume they are waived, because so many games do.


As for crit-fishing I highly suggest a dip into rogue or any other class that gives sneak attack at first level to be able to get the incredibly useful Craven feat (gives you your level in damage when making a sneak attack). That is because while Sneak attack die aren't multiplied on a crit, statical bonus like craven do get multiplied, on the same vein getting collision enhancement on your kukris might also be a good option once you can afford them (+2 equivalent, so it might be a while though) as they give you +5 damage to each attack).

Craven is excellent, indeed. Perhaps coupled with Assassin's Stance and the Shadow Blade feat (Dex to damage).

[Dusk Eclipse]

If he is going to go crit-fishing then Assassin's Stance and Dex to damage is not needed as he will most likely spend most of his combat in Blood in the Water, that is why I suggested dipping rogue and even if he went Dex based, there is a lot of discussion on whether Assassin's Stance count as "Sneak Attack class feature, so I prefer to cut the discussion and go on a direct way, plust it has also other goodies such as tons of skill points, a better skill list (hello UMD how are you?).

Also if he went Shadow Blade then the second(?) level ability of Blood claw master to add full strength to off-hand would be kind of wasted unless he used daggers as opposed to kukris which are much better for crit fishing.

[ColossusCrusher]

Interesting suggestions. I was thinking about the following as a class build:
Swordsage 6/BCM 2/Swordsage 6/Warblade 4/Swordsage 2. The idea for that is to get the BCM dip ASAP for the reduced TWF penalties and the Warblade dip when I can pick up the higher level maneuvers to synergize with the Warblade's recovery method (four levels instead of three to get 4/5 Warblade maneuvers readied, especially since I'm planning on having those be my hardest hitting ones). I figure that I can dedicate a lot of my 19 Swordsage maneuvers to counters and utility if I can do Time Stands Still/Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip/Raging Mongoose almost every other turn.

Unfortunately while the Rogue dip is a great idea, it doesn't really fit the theme I have in mind - tear into people and jump around to tear into more people. Sneaking around just doesn't feel right for this character. Good idea about ignoring GTWF though. I assume that the -5/-10 from the advanced TWF feats are just there to simulate BAB progression?

[Malachei]

If he is going to go crit-fishing then Assassin's Stance and Dex to damage is not needed as he will most likely spend most of his combat in Blood in the Water, that is why I suggested dipping rogue and even if he went Dex based, there is a lot of discussion on whether Assassin's Stance count as "Sneak Attack class feature, so I prefer to cut the discussion and go on a direct way, plust it has also other goodies such as tons of skill points, a better skill list (hello UMD how are you?).

Also if he went Shadow Blade then the second(?) level ability of Blood claw master to add full strength to off-hand would be kind of wasted unless he used daggers as opposed to kukris which are much better for crit fishing.

Shadow Blade gives Dex in addition to Str.

I'm not a big fan of blood in the water, because it takes time to build up.

I'd agree I'd not allow Assassin's Stance to qualify, but it stacks with SA from other sources, and SA is generally good for TWF.

I totally agree on UMD. UMD alone is worth Able Learner.

[Moogleking]

Then how about a SA Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter)? It's just a normal fighter fluff wise, if that was your concern :smallsmile:

[Malachei]

Unfortunately while the Rogue dip is a great idea, it doesn't really fit the theme I have in mind - tear into people and jump around to tear into more people. Sneaking around just doesn't feel right for this character. Good idea about ignoring GTWF though. I assume that the -5/-10 from the advanced TWF feats are just there to simulate BAB progression?

If rogue / sneaking does not the theme you have in mind, perhaps more focus on warblade might be a better fit. Most swordsages are pretty close to rogues in that they remain glass cannons (I have painfully experienced that myself).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Interesting suggestions. I was thinking about the following as a class build:
Swordsage 6/BCM 2/Swordsage 6/Warblade 4/Swordsage 2. The idea for that is to get the BCM dip ASAP for the reduced TWF penalties and the Warblade dip when I can pick up the higher level maneuvers to synergize with the Warblade's recovery method (four levels instead of three to get 4/5 Warblade maneuvers readied, especially since I'm planning on having those be my hardest hitting ones). I figure that I can dedicate a lot of my 19 Swordsage maneuvers to counters and utility if I can do Time Stands Still/Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip/Raging Mongoose almost every other turn.

Unfortunately while the Rogue dip is a great idea, it doesn't really fit the theme I have in mind - tear into people and jump around to tear into more people. Sneaking around just doesn't feel right for this character. Good idea about ignoring GTWF though. I assume that the -5/-10 from the advanced TWF feats are just there to simulate BAB progression?

Rogue is just an option, really sneak attack is just to open access to Craven which is awesome and you can go more martially oriented by going Sneak Attack Fighter (Variant in Unearthed Arcana/SRD), remember that there is nothing that forces you to fluff Sneak attack as well stalking in shadows and the like (despite the name) since it also works for flat footed targets you can say that your ferocious attacks makes it much harder for your enemies to defend properly or something along the lines of that.

As for the TWF I assume that was the idea; but in the end the penalties are too high for my tastes, I mean I am spending feats on attacking more times per round, I think I should get at least a moderate chance of hitting.


Shadow Blade gives Dex in addition to Str.

I'm not a big fan of blood in the water, because it takes time to build up.

I'd agree I'd not allow Assassin's Stance to qualify, but it stacks with SA from other sources, and SA is generally good for TWF.

I totally agree on UMD. UMD alone is worth Able Learner.

I know that Shadow blade allows for both; but it usually makes the character even more MAD as now you need at least decent Strength and good Dex to make the most out of it and it also needs a higher feat investment (not taking Weapon finesse with this Dex focus would be frankly stupid).

Although I love Dexterity focused characters I think a crit fisher benefits more of blood in the water than Assassin's stance, though I agree on your other points.

[ColossusCrusher]

Something else I just realized - this build is stupidly Feat Intensive. Lightning Mace has three requirements, throw in Adaptive Style and Weapon Finesse and it takes until level 12 to get filled out, and even then Gloves of the Balanced Hand are required (GTWF can be ignored, since five attacks and Lightning Mace is pretty silly already) to be relevant earlier than that. I could ask my DM if Flaws are acceptable, in which case Shaky (-2 to ranged attacks) is an obvious choice and brings it back to a more acceptable level 9.

This build is also superficially MAD but can be worked around - Strength can be left lower by enchanting the kukris with Collision, Battle Ardor only really needs +1 or +2 Intelligence, as does Constitution, leaving Wisdom and Dexterity as the focal abilities. Thankfully my group doesn't optimize much, so a little bit of MAD isn't the end of the world, either (I wouldn't want to have that large of an optimization gap, since that wouldn't be fun for everyone else, IMO).

As for why not focus more on Warblade, well, I just love a Swordsage's adaptability too much to give it up.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That is why I am suggesting to focus on strength rather than dex, that at least mitigates some of the feat tax and also helps with your stats.

Also don't make a mistake and assume Wisdom is a primary stat for Swordsages, while you get nice things out of having a high wisdom you don't need high wisdom.

[ColossusCrusher]

That is why I am suggesting to focus on strength rather than dex, that at least mitigates some of the feat tax and also helps with your stats.

Also don't make a mistake and assume Wisdom is a primary stat for Swordsages, while you get nice things out of having a high wisdom you don't need high wisdom.

Hmm, I see what you mean. If I have a high Strength I can ignore Weapon Finesse. Since Swordsages are limited to light armor I'd have to choose whether to then prioritize Dexterity or Wisdom, which actually has a bit of a tough choice. Dex gives a nice Initiative boost, but the Wisdom AC bonus applies to Touch and Flat-footed AC. If I can get my hand on a +1 Mithral Breastplate that would make up for the loss of AC from Dex while still letting me get no armor check penalties and applying the Wisdom bonus. Of course, that comes out to 21K gold for the Adaptive Kukris and the armor alone, but shelling out 10K to make them Keen later shouldn't be an issue.

[Phaederkiel]

blood in the water looks very good, but in my experience the very second you built up a meaningful bonus the combat ends...

before you put anything else on your kukris (mayhaps even before you put keen on them...), get the slow burst enchantment. Will dc 14 is meaningless by lvl 10, but at lvl 5 (where you easily can afford it), it kicks hindsides.

At higher lvl, prismatic burst.

Both these enchantments are FAR better than collision. Collision adds non-meaningful damage at a HIGH price.

Craven, on the other hand, could easily be meaningful damage. But 5 dmg for +2? The aptitude weapons have more bang for their buck. Heck, even normal magic weapons are nearly better, since they help to hit.

[ColossusCrusher]

Wow Prismatic Burst looks awesome. I assume having a +GP cost means that it doesn't consume any of the +10 maximum bonus? Just looking over the Compendium, the only other thing that really catches my attention after Adaptive/Keen is Speed, but that only works on a full attack (although still good, considering how effective a full attack probably is on this build).

I mean, Vampiric could be useful to provide some additional sustain to compensate for the Swordsage's squishiness, and Transmuting is also interesting, but the there's a high level Stone Dragon strike that gives 12d6 bonus damage with DR bypass anyway. Parrying is a solid defensive choice, albeit pretty expensive and replaceable with a Ring of Protection/Resistance. Ghost Touch is Ghost Touch, and given that our party's had issues with them before it wouldn't be a bad idea as a later investment.

Just read over Vampiric, and the life gain is only the bonus damage. Scratch that, then. I'd take an enhancement that doesn't give bonus damage and allows for full life gain, though.

Also read over Slow, and that's amazing. True, the DC is easy at higher levels, but it only costs 5,000 GP. Since the cap is +10 or 200K gold, that would allow for a total of +9 enhancements, Prismatic Burst and Slow Burst. I doubt we're going to reach that kind of power level, but it's nice to have goals.

[Phaederkiel]

yep, you assume rightly, it doesnt add into the limit.

And both abilities ARE awesome. Even if slow triggers only at a natural 1, it is still powerfull if you can give an enemy 3 plus chances to screw up a round.
And prismatic burst is really powerful. Especially since it has virtually 4 instant kill options within it. you only have to persuade the dm that an enemy teleported to another plane leaves his stuff behind...

asking out of lazyness: what does speed do? is it the plus one attack one? Do two of them stack? Anyway, I would not put ghost touch on a weapon. there is a weapon chrystal costing >4000 gp doing the same, if i recall right.

you could probably quite easily get into master of nine, couldn't you? perhaps this is interesting.


Oh, and for the dmg: look hard at insightful strike. it deals concentration check damage, nothing else applies (though slow and prismatic do...). There is a greater version later on.

Both of these work with crits. my 13th level factotum uses this lowly lvl 3 maneuver as his main weapon. with a keen dagger, which is much worse than a kukri. Crushed a bbeg this friday with 95 dmg on a single hit...

To bolster your dmg with this, get yourself either the vest, or the boots hat boost concentration (MIC). vest is plus 10 and costs 10 000.

and since you probably are replacing your saves partially with maneuvers, it gives you plus 10 on these saves...golden.

Add a masterwork tool (chigong balls, or a toothpick 'cause he just stopped smoking, or even an exotic smoke are nice ideas) and you end up with a plus 12.



Warblade has a lot of good things. especially the maneuver that lets you reroll an attack and gives plus 2 to hit is great for a critter. When you really need to hit, or even crit, use it. Chances are...

The next things are Iron heart surge (talk to your dm, find out what it does and what it does not), white raven tactics (best maneuver ever) and, as an out of combat stance, scent. Or, if you prefer, plus 1d6 per attack. Or, if your party has a charger (or you get pouncing maneuvers, later on) the white stance leading the charge. These bonuses are POWERFUL if you have any kind of charger who has a multiplier. Like x3 for spirited charge and using a lance.

[ColossusCrusher]

Speed gives the weapon an additional attack at full BAB on a full attack, but it does cost +3, which is pretty expensive. Insightful Strike is obvious, even despite being a single attack, since it's just so good (and leads into Time Stands Still). Iron Heart/White Raven is great, but I feel that a Warblade 4 dip at ECL 15-18 to acquire a few high-level maneuvers that benefit from Warblade recovery is more in flavor (Diamond Nightmare Blade, Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Time Stands Still and Mountain Tombstone Strike are the ones I have in mind) for the character I have in mind - he's going to be NE and greedy, so helping others doesn't figure as much into his mindset. I know that myself and another player are going to push hard for a pirate campaign, which would be perfect for this character.

[Phaederkiel]

you can always refluff white raven tactic as a harsh command...
"get your bleeding backside moving, cur"
has good flavour while keeping open the possibility of using the best maneuver in the book :)

I would probably go into warblade at level 9 at the latest, for the third lvl maneuvers. most games do not go that long, and you can power up oh so much by going into that class earlier.

What did you think about master of nine? Can get you access to all the maneuvers you wanted, can it not?

[ColossusCrusher]

Master of Nine looks fun, but a critfish is already really feat-intensive as it is. As for Warblade 9, it's definitely a great idea, but how exactly would I be able to mix it in with BCM 2/Swordsage 9? Since I want to be able to have access to the insane amount of utility a Swordsage has the best bet for that would be to alternate the two classes, taking a break at ECL 6 to get the two levels in BCM I need (my hesitation is due to only really needing Warblade for the nova combo described below, although getting more of the good Warblade exclusives is really tempting).

Wait a moment, I think I've had a breakthrough.
Start Warblade and then start alternating with Swordsage, BCM at ECL 7/8 and then keep alternating so that both classes can benefit from maneuvers on all initiator levels (especially the even levels for maneuver substitution).

Nova Combo: Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip/Time Stands Still/Raging Mongoose. Still standing? Either refresh and repeat or use Mountain Tombstone Strike, Diamond Nightmare Blade or something else just as crazy.

Go into Setting Sun for Fool's Guard, White Raven for White Raven Tactics, Iron Heart for Iron Heart Endurance/Surge and Lightning Recovery. If I can swing the extra maneuvers, Strike of Perfect Clarity is great too. Shadow Jaunt/Step/Blink and Cloak of Deception have no prerequisites, anyway.

Oh, great. Now the perfectionist in me is going to have to plan this entire thing out. See what you guys make me do? :D

[Malachei]

If possible, you might want to take your first Swordsage level with an initiator level of 3 (i.e. 4 other class levels), because you can now grab second-level maneuvers (as long as you meet prerequisites). Of course, it hurts to wait that long with your first SWS level, but the second level maneuvers are great.

[Phaederkiel]

sorry, i wrote unclear:

i meant: go 8 lvl swordsage, then take your first lvl warblade. this gives you 3rd lvl maneuvers right off the bat. Of course, you can also do what Mal suggests (he is usually very much right).

Taken at either 9 or 5, you also circumvent a point of bab lost, even if it only is for a short time...

the feat intensive part is lightning mace?
(just for a question: is it swordsage that allows you to use a macing (sorry for the pun...)feat for kukris?

[ColossusCrusher]

Initiator level 3 only requires two other class levels, assuming I'm going as a full Martial Adept, unless I'm reading it wrong. Or did you mean getting to IL5 so that the SWS levels can go straight into the level 3 manuevers and you wrote level 2 by accident?

Lightning Mace requires Combat Reflexes, TWF and Weapon Focus (Light Mace). The Adaptive weapon enhancement is what allows me to use kukris with it. I just want Swordsage for the stupid amounts of utility maneuvers.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Now that you mention, do any of the Disciplines have light mace as favoured weapon? if so you can knock of another feat and use the Discipline focus to meet the lighting maces pre-requisites (Once you get Adaptive weapon you can also get said weapon focus work for Kukris)

[Malachei]

Initiator level 3 only requires two other class levels, assuming I'm going as a full Martial Adept, unless I'm reading it wrong. Or did you mean getting to IL5 so that the SWS levels can go straight into the level 3 manuevers and you wrote level 2 by accident?

Lightning Mace requires Combat Reflexes, TWF and Weapon Focus (Light Mace). The Adaptive weapon enhancement is what allows me to use kukris with it. I just want Swordsage for the stupid amounts of utility maneuvers.

Unfortunately, Initiator level 3 requires four other class levels and one level in your initiator class.

Example: A Warblade 4, Swordsage 6 has a SWS initiator level of 8 (6+4/2), and a Warblade initiator level of 7 (4+6/2).

[ColossusCrusher]

Unfortunately, Initiator level 3 requires four other class levels and one level in your initiator class.

Example: A Warblade 4, Swordsage 6 has a SWS initiator level of 8 (6+4/2), and a Warblade initiator level of 7 (4+6/2).

That sucks, then. By my calculations it means that a WB 9/SWS 9/BCM 2 would only have an IL of 15, which wouldn't let it qualify for the most powerful maneuvers. Bummer. I mean, I could *probably* get my DMs to let it slide, but that's pretty annoying. It means that my plans to take a Warblade dip for the highest level maneuvers crashes and burns horribly. Unless I'm missing something, of course.

I mean, I can still get the best maneuvers, but I'd either have to focus on Warblade with a very small dip into Swordsage to grab Shadow Step/Blink, Fool's Guard (I'd have to use Martial Study to pick this one up, since it's a level 8 maneuver) and the other SWS-only goodies and get to nova multiple times, or do the opposite with a minimal dip for Iron Heart Surge/White Raven Tactics and only feasibly nova once per encounter (the nova being Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip + Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose while in Blood in the Water). Argh, and I was looking forward to figuring this out relatively easily.

[Malachei]

Well, some (note not all) ToB Prestige Classes add their full class level to initiator level.

Also, obviously, aim for even numbers when multiclassing, except for the first level (which is rounded mathematically).

In a non-sneaky build more focused to stand its ground, I usually focus on Warblade for full BAB and 1d12 HD, while taking a few Swordsage levels. Especially the first Swordsage level with 5 maneuvers is important, and then there is Wis to AC and the second stance at level 2. IMO, it is downhill from there.

[Stegyre]

That sucks, then. By my calculations it means that a WB 9/SWS 9/BCM 2 would only have an IL of 15, which wouldn't let it qualify for the most powerful maneuvers. Bummer. I mean, I could *probably* get my DMs to let it slide, but that's pretty annoying. It means that my plans to take a Warblade dip for the highest level maneuvers crashes and burns horribly. Unless I'm missing something, of course.

I mean, I can still get the best maneuvers, but I'd either have to focus on Warblade with a very small dip into Swordsage to grab Shadow Step/Blink, Fool's Guard (I'd have to use Martial Study to pick this one up, since it's a level 8 maneuver) and the other SWS-only goodies and get to nova multiple times, or do the opposite with a minimal dip for Iron Heart Surge/White Raven Tactics and only feasibly nova once per encounter (the nova being Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip + Time Stands Still + Raging Mongoose while in Blood in the Water). Argh, and I was looking forward to figuring this out relatively easily.
First, I don't think you were ever going to be able to do that, anyway, due to the action economy: TSS takes a full-round action; GWFR takes a swift action; RM requires yet another swift action. As nothing known to man grants a second swift action in a round, you can never do more than TSS and one of the other maneuvers. (But let's not get greedy. Like the song says, "Two out of three ain't bad.")

Second, a Belt of Battle would essentially allow the SS side of your build to duplicate the WB recharge mechanic once a day, so you have an item work-around, to some extent.

Third, by my calculations, you can still have IL 17 on one side of the build and IL 13 on the other (although you'll have to use feats or items for the highest level maneuvers on one side or the other. Assuming you emphasize the SS side, you really ought to be able to find sufficient spammable 6th and 7th level WB maneuvers to keep the character from feeling useless.

Or emphasize the WB side, and you can still fill up your SS side with 11 maneuvers known, 6 readied, and 3 stances, all of which may easily start at IL 5 or 7. (For the record, you may "dip" up to 6 levels on one side and still make IL 17 on the other. You probably already know this, but the two BCM levels count as full on one side or the other.)

Well, some (note not all) ToB Prestige Classes add their full class level to initiator level.
BCM adds full (ToB 97), but it's a little ambiguous as to how that works out with more than one martial adept class. The previous page says that, each time a stance or maneuver is learned, it must be assigned to one of the base MA classes. I'm not seeing anything about whether that decision is changeable each time it happens (e.g., assign one maneuver to WB and the next to SS), nor what effect (if any) this decision has on counting BCM levels in other MA classes.

By the most charitable reading (allowing BCM to count full for both sides), WB 12, SS 6, BCM 2 gets IL 17/14, which is only slightly better.

[ColossusCrusher]

I see what you mean. If I just go straight Warblade until level 6, grab two levels of BCM and then go back to Warblade until ECL 14 before taking two levels of Swordsage I'll have a SWS IL of 9/10, which lets me get up to level 5 maneuvers with my dip. I'll be a bit off-curve for level 8 and 9 manuevers, but Time Stands Still is the only essential level 9. Since Martial Study just says "Martial Adept levels", does that mean that both SWS and WB levels would count equally for taking it as a feat?


First, I don't think you were ever going to be able to do that, anyway, due to the action economy: TSS takes a full-round action; GWFR takes a swift action; RM requires yet another swift action. As nothing known to man grants a second swift action in a round, you can never do more than TSS and one of the other maneuvers. (But let's not get greedy. Like the song says, "Two out of three ain't bad.")

Second, a Belt of Battle would essentially allow the SS side of your build to duplicate the WB recharge mechanic once a day, so you have an item work-around, to some extent.

Third, by my calculations, you can still have IL 17 on one side of the build and IL 13 on the other (although you'll have to use feats or items for the highest level maneuvers on one side or the other. Assuming you emphasize the SS side, you really ought to be able to find sufficient spammable 6th and 7th level WB maneuvers to keep the character from feeling useless.

Or emphasize the WB side, and you can still fill up your SS side with 11 maneuvers known, 6 readied, and 3 stances, all of which may easily start at IL 5 or 7. (For the record, you may "dip" up to 6 levels on one side and still make IL 17 on the other. You probably already know this, but the two BCM levels count as full on one side or the other.)

Yeah, a 12/2/6 or a 14/2/4 build is starting to look a lot better. That way I'd be able to start the dip with fifth level manuevers and get enough versatility for the good stuff. I'm just not sure where in the level progression to put the dip in, or if I should do it as a block of levels or spread it out.

[Malachei]

As nothing known to man grants a second swift action in a round,

Ruby Knight Vindicator.

[Stegyre]

Ruby Knight Vindicator.
. . . and I meant to add, "Except RKV." :redface:

[Malachei]

. . . and I meant to add, "Except RKV." :redface:

No, that would have taken all the Impetus :) out of the bold statement. Right on the level of "To swift where no man has swifted before..."

@ColossusCrusher: If you dip that high, you'll miss the maneuvers for quite a while. Also beware the maneuver prerequisites (although even higher Shadow Hand maneuvers often have none).

I'd take that first SWS level earlier, and I'd grab stuff that (1) I can't take as Warblade due to the smaller number of maneuvers known (2) You're using once, perhaps twice per encounter so the SWS recovery is not a big issue (with Adaptive Style).

My pick-list for an early dip:

1,2,3: The Diamond Mind counters Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought and Mind Over Body. The last one is often not recommended because of good Fort, BUT you don't fail on a natural 1, which makes it still priceless, even if it covers a good save.

4: Shadow Jaunt
5: Cloak of Deception

That is five. For the last one, I like Counter Charge, or Mighty Throw, which can be very powerful in the right terrain (tower? Bridge?)

[Phaederkiel]

Do the PCs that add to all initiator lvls also add full to the initiatorlvl of classes you got into after taking lvls in the PC?

(was this understandable?)


but do splash in your off lvls at either 5 or 9. If you dip later, you will have less ability to spam maneuvers, which makes a high lvl char somewhat weak. even wih adaptive style is getting maneuvers back hard when done in battle.

For example, with my factotum, I often have rounds like this :

Cunning surge: run to my enemy
Cunning surge: insightful strike him
full round action: replenish insightful strike
Cunning surge: insightful strike him again.

yes, i could not put adaptive style into the build, but this matters little. too little maneuvers -> too much replenishing -> ineffective character.

oh, and Stegyre: i think a factotum can take a standard and use it for a swift...


collosus: would you make a listing of the feats / flaws you want by which lvl?
perhaps a master o nine still fits somewhere :)

[Malachei]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[ColossusCrusher]

@Malachei: That was my idea - use my limited number of Warblade maneuvers for damage and heavy attacks while shoring up my defenses with Swordsage utility manuevers.

@Phaederkiel: Yeah, PrCs generally say if they add fully to your IL or not.

As for my feats, I had this in mind:
Human: TWF
Level 1: Choice
Level 3: Choice
Level 5 (via SWS 1): Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus): Desert Wind (includes Light Mace for Aptitude weapons)
Level 6 (via Warblade 5): Combat Reflexes
Level 6: Adaptive Style
Level 9: Lightning Mace

If I can choose the order I get feats in I would be able to take Lightning Mace at level 6 after Combat Reflexes, but I'm not sure how that works. I do know that once I get Initiator Level 15-16 I'll want to take Martial Study to get my hands on Fool's Guard (Setting Sun 8). With a Warblade's BAB it's just too useful to pass up.

[Phaederkiel]

you can choose the order of your feats.

[Stegyre]

oh, and Stegyre: i think a factotum can take a standard and use it for a swift...
To be hypertechnical, anyone may (by using the Ready action) essentially convert a standard action into a swift action, so my original statement was overbroad.

Strict RAW proponents may argue that this cannot be done if a character has already used a swift action during his turn. (Per RC 7, "[Y]ou can perform only one swift action per turn." I believe Curmudgeon has advanced this argument before.)

RKV would be a specific exception to this; I don't see anything in the Factotum description that would be.

[Phaederkiel]

i meant : with cunning surge.
If i can grow a bunch of standards, i can also have a lot of swifts.
If your dm lets you convert them. I know I do.

[ColossusCrusher]

So, this is looking like a SWS 4 dip at various levels would be ideal:

Warblade 4
Warblade 4/SWS 1
Warblade 5/SWS 1
Warblade 5/SWS 1/BCM 2
Warblade 8 (or 6)/SWS 1/BCM 2
Warblade 8 (or 6)/SWS 2/BCM 2
Warblade 10 (or 8)/SWS 2/BCM 2
Warblade 10 (or 8)/SWS 3/BCM 2
Warblade 12 (or 10)/SWS 3/BCM 2
Warblade 12 (or 10)/SWS 4/BCM 2
Warblade 14/SWS 4/BCM 2

This is just a rough idea, since I haven't figured out which high-level SWS maneuvers I should grab or anything. A 4-dip is ideal because it allows for three level 9 maneuvers over ECL 19/20 instead of just two at ECL 20 with a 6-dip (which basically comes down to the question of whether the Tiger Claw or Iron Heart ultimate is better). The dip as I designed it allows each new SWS level to access maneuvers of one level higher than the last, although I'm pretty sure there's no way to get level 7 SWS maneuvers without interfering with level 9 Warblade maneuvers.

[Malachei]

This looks nice. Have you considered only dipping two SWS levels?

[ColossusCrusher]

I've thought about it - a two level dip ensures the WIS -> AC bonus and gives 0/3/3 saves, whereas four levels gives 1/4/4 saves, which feels less efficient for a dip. I would lose out on two utility manuevers and only gain one from Warblade, though. Getting one more BAB, readied WB maneuver and stance is pretty nice though. I'd have to time a two level dip really well though, since I do want to get Fool's Strike via Martial Study later and I need three Setting Sun maneuvers for that (take two at SWS 1 and one more at SWS 2).

If I do the second dip at ECL 15 for a SWS IL of 10 I get either Shadow Step or Mirrored Pursuit, and then can take a feat for Fool's Strike. Unfortunately I can't get both of those manuevers without taking another Martial Study. Or is Shadow Jaunt good enough? I'm also assuming that Martial Study counts all martial adept levels equally for the purposes of learning a new manuever, since it doesn't really specify.