[PF] Getting consistant Flat-Footed for Sap Master?

[RndmNumGen]

There's this feat. Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat). Doubles sneak attack dice, but only when attacking flatfooted enemies with nonlethal damage. Except on enemies who are immune to it, the nonlethal damage doesn't matter(can always Coup De Grace later if needed).

The flat-footed part is harder. I know the typical way of going first in combat, but that's just once per encounter. Are there any more consistant ways to trigger the requirements for this feat? Note that because is specifies flat footed, I don't think effects that deny DEX to AC, such as feinting, will work.

[Siosilvar]

"You are considered flat-footed while balancing" if you have fewer than 5 ranks. Grease forces balance checks. EDIT: Just noticed the [PF] tag. I'll check and see if both of these are still true.

Pathfinder adds the line "Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed." to the grease spell, so it's not a guarantee.

Depending on how many 3.5 sources you're allowed, there's a decent list here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/20116273/Situations_where_the_opponent_is_flatfooted).

EDIT2: Couple of Pathfinder options. Scout archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout) deals sneak attack damage on a charge "as if the target were flat-footed". Catch Off-guard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/catch-off-guard-combat) and the improved version thereof works, but you'd need an improvised weapon that counts as a sap. Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final) takes three feats and a fear effect. There's the seven-branched sword (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/sword-seven-branched) if you can afford the attack bonus to use two-weapon fighting.

[stack]

Seven branched sword is not bludgeoning, so no good.

Thought it would be fun to use blunt merciful arrows to get double sneak attack damage from range (doesn't specify melee, only bludgeoning and nonlethal), but that is neither here nor there.

[Akal Saris]

If the rogue had access to greater invisibility then that would also make enemies flat-footed to ranged attacks. Could be done with a heap of cash to buy a wand to UMD, or by going arcane trickster, or with a friendly caster in the party.

[RndmNumGen]

Hmm... Scout and Catch Off-Guard both look like they could work. Sap Master doesn't require using a Sap, just that you deal nonlethal damage with a bludgeoning weapon. Could throw Improvised Weapon Mastery in there as well if going that route... I don't think improvised weapons count as nonlethal though... or does it depend on what you're using?

[Cieyrin]

Seven branched sword is not bludgeoning, so no good.

Thought it would be fun to use blunt merciful arrows to get double sneak attack damage from range (doesn't specify melee, only bludgeoning and nonlethal), but that is neither here nor there.

Firearms deal Bludgeoning and Piercing, making them eligible for the Bludgeoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bludgeoner-combat) feat and thus the Sap Adept chain. :smallwink:

[doko239]

Greater Feint (paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html&hl=e7#_greater-feint) allows you to deny dex to an opponent until your next turn with a bluff check as a move action.

Edit: nevermind, FF =/= denied dex

[stack]

Merciful takes care of the nonlethal part, though I believe you can normally deal nonlethal by taking a -4 penalty on your attack, which would work for improvised weapons since they are, by definition, hard to enchant.

Ed- ooh, bludgeoner feat, nice. Never saw that one, or if I did the use escaped my. Works for blunt arrows too.

[Hylas]

I'll clarify that in order to do non-lethal damage with a sneak attack you need to use a non-lethal weapon, so the usual -4 to attack won't work. Bludgeoner makes up for this as does a merciful weapon.

The easiest way to make an enemy flat-footed is to either charge as a scout or use feints, though it will take a while to get enough feats for greater feint.

Also, denying the dex bonus to AC and flat-footed is the same thing, only a jerk would say they're different.

[The Glyphstone]

I'll clarify that in order to do non-lethal damage with a sneak attack you need to use a non-lethal weapon, so the usual -4 to attack won't work. Bludgeoner makes up for this as does a merciful weapon.

The easiest way to make an enemy flat-footed is to either charge as a scout or use feints, though it will take a while to get enough feats for greater feint.

Also, denying the dex bonus to AC and flat-footed is the same thing, only a jerk would say they're different.

By RAW, they are different things though - Flat-footed is a very specific condition, and much harder to cause than simply denying Dex to AC. For instance, someone who is flat-footed cannot make AoO, while someone denied their Dex to AC can.


A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.

Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat.
So....the Paizo designers are jerks, apparently?

[Laniius]

Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/enforcer-combat), Shatter Defenses (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shatter-defenses-combat---final), Dazzling Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazzling-display-combat), and possibly the Rake archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/rake) would play very nicely with that... hmmm... ideas.

[Private]

Might I suggest playing a Ninja, not a rogue, and taking the "Vanishing Trick" Trick, and then taking the "Invisible Blade" Master Trick. This allows you to function as Greater Invisibility for quite a few rounds a day, each costing only 1 ki point. You'd have to be level 10 to use it, but it's still an idea to consider.

[Hylas]

So....the Paizo designers are jerks, apparently?

Yes, but not necessarily from making a difference between flat-footed and denied Dex to AC. :smalltongue:

I don't think there should be so many different conditions that are so similar, it makes the rules feel ridiculous.

[grarrrg]

Seven branched sword is not bludgeoning, so no good.

Yes and no.
Everyone seems to be forgetting that Unarmed Strikes are NONlethal! and you can still Unarmed fight with a 2-handed weapon!

First attack is a 'Special'-Trip attempt with the Sword, then, if successful, PUNCH!


Part of the problem with this though is wanting/needing Bab for the additional attacks.
The only 2 PrC's that get Sneak Dice AND Full Bab are Low Templar and Pain Taster. Low Templar only gets _2_ Sneak dice the whole 10 levels (at 3 and 8), and Pain Taster requires 3 feats for entry, and only gives 2 Sneak dice over 4 levels (it's a 5 level class, but the 5th? No dice :smalltongue:)

Maneuver Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/maneuver-master) Monk is an option, no Sneak dice, but Flurry of Maneuvers lets you make an extra Maneuver when attacking (and treats the Monk's Bab as if it were Full Bab).
It'd also be a quick way to snag some of the needed feats.

The Seven-Branch Sword _IS_ a Monk weapon after all...

[RndmNumGen]

I'm not sure how much I like the Seven-Branched Sword due to needing to make a Trip Attempt each round, but it is a possibility, especially if Multiclassing Monk. Since we effectively get double SA progression with this feat though, I think multiclassing should be used sparingly. A 1-level dip doesn't hurt too much, though.

I just noticed that Catch Off-Guard requires enemies to be unarmed. This throws a large weapon-shaped wrench into my plans :smallfrown: I suppose I could always attempt to disarm them, but 1) we're back to requiring a CMB check before attacking and 2) I don't think creatures with natural weapons(of which there are a lot) ever count as unarmed.

So we're back to the scout archetype for either Ninja or Rogue. Scout's Charge seems to be the most effective way of getting enemies flat-footed, though we're only getting one attack per round without Pounce. Any good way we can pick that up without sacrificing too much SA? There's Synthesist, but I don't like that both because the fluff doesn't really fit and because it's physical stats replace ours, so we're limited to 16 STR/14 DEX or visa versa.

[grarrrg]

So we're back to the scout archetype for either Ninja or Rogue. Scout's Charge seems to be the most effective way of getting enemies flat-footed, though we're only getting one attack per round without Pounce. Any good way we can pick that up without sacrificing too much SA? There's Synthesist, but I don't like that both because the fluff doesn't really fit and because it's physical stats replace ours, so we're limited to 16 STR/14 DEX or visa versa.

*sigh*
(Once again...)
Synthesist is NOT good for a 1-level Pounce dip.

You MUST be a Quadruped Eidolon to take Pounce.
Quadrupeds do NOT have arms.
Quad stats are 14 Str/14 Dex.
1st level only gives you 3 Evo-points.
Pounce costs 1, Arms cost 2.

And while we don't need a high stat for Damage reasons, we DO need it for feats, like Two-Weapon Fighting, and Accuracy (especially since we have 3/4 Bab for most our levels).


As for dips in general, each level of 'not-rogue' is worth 5.5 damage.
So it better be dang worth it.

The 'fastest' Sneak progression is +1d6 every 2 levels.
Sap Adept adds 2 per Sneak die.
Sap Master doubles the number of Sneak dice.
2 Levels = 2d6+4
1 level = 1d6+2 = 5.5 avg



Powerful Sneak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/powerful-sneak-ex) and the improved version Deadly Sneak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/deadly-sneak-ex) may be worth a look.
Assuming we can get 10d6 Sneak dice, which doubles to 20d6 with Sap Master, Deadly Sneak will add 10 damage per attack (on average, powerful Sneak alone only adds 3.33 damage).

[Cieyrin]

The fastest PF-only entry to a Pounce-like is Rough Rider Fighter, which allows a move action on your mount's part to allow a fast dismount and full attack on yours. Not compatible with charging, though, and combining the Scout's Skirmish means 15th at the earliest, which just seems ungood to me, at least as much as attempting a Synthesist dip for a Pouncetaur.

[RndmNumGen]

Okay, so forget Pounce then. It doesn't look like it will be worth the investment. What else can we add to this? So far I'm looking at the following:


Half-Orc Rogue(Scout, Thug):

Lv 1: Enforcer
Rogue 2: Powerful Sneak
Lv 3: Sap Adewpt
Rogue 4: Ninja Trick(Unarmed Combat Training)
Lv 5: Sap Master
Rogue 6: Ninja Trick(Weapon Training[Unarmed Strike])
Lv 7: Dazzling Display
Rogue 8: Combat Trick(Shatter Defenses)
Lv 9: ???
Rogue 10: Deadly Sneak

Early on this is moderately effective, dealing 2d6 with a Sneak Attack, and Shakening enemies for that many rounds. This Sneak Attack works in all normal situations(so flanking, invisible, etc. all work).

At level 5 we get Sap Master, and with Scout's Charge at level 4, we can charge for double SA damage. Each charge will do 7d6+12 damage, with all 1s counting as 2s. At this point, anybody we hit with this will probably be Shaken for the whole encounter, or we can make them Frightened for 1 round.

At level 8, we pick up Shatter Defenses(Sadly, 8 is as early as possible we can get it). Any enemy we hit with Sneak Attack(whether on a charge or from normal flanking) becomes Flat-Footed until the end of our next round, giving us lovely Sap Mastery SA Dice.

It would also be nice to work some of these Rogue Talents in somehow:
-Offensive Defense(+1 Dodge AC per sneak attack dice rolled)
-Underhanded(Maximized SA Dice during surprise round if using concealed weapon)
-Bleeding Sneak(+1 Bleed Damage per SA dice) - Nonleathal Bleed doesn't make a lot of sense thematically, but hey, extra damage? Sure. Ironically enough, if the bleed persists long enough, it becomes lethal.

[Crasical]

Catch off Guard only works on unarmed opponents, and the Improved version is 3rd party.

Edit: Derp, ninja'd.

[stack]

For a high level build, taking 4 levels of scout rogue (to get sneak attack on a charge) with 10 levels of alchemist (vivisectionist for sneak attack stacking w/ rogue levels and beastmorph to get pounce), gets you a very deadly charge.

Still needs 4 more rogue levels to get sneak attack for moving 10 feet.

[grarrrg]

For a high level build, taking 4 levels of scout rogue (to get sneak attack on a charge) with 10 levels of alchemist (vivisectionist for sneak attack stacking w/ rogue levels and beastmorph to get pounce), gets you a very deadly charge.

Still needs 4 more rogue levels to get sneak attack for moving 10 feet.

And Stack wins the Thread!

I do see 2 problems though.
The first is that "Discovery<Rogue Talent".
Vivisectionist sort of helps with this, as you can take the Bleeding Attack and Crippling Strike Rogue Talents in place of Discoveries.

The 2nd is we only get 1 Mutagen/day by default.
Infuse Mutagen lets us make extras, but costs 1,000gp and 2 INT EACH.
BUT, since we have 10 levels of Alchemist anyway, taking Infuse Mutagen qualifies us for Master Chymist, which gives a free 2 Mutate/day! At level 1! So we can now Mutate 3/day.
And if we can get the DM to let the Master Chymist Bomb-stacking count as Sneak-Stacking, even better.

Current minimum build is now Rogue (Scout) 4/Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist) 10/Master Chymist 1
11 Bab and 5 levels left to work with.
2 Rogue Talents, and 2 (remaining) Discoveries.

[stack]

My first thread win! I feel so proud.:smallbiggrin:

[Nizaris]

Flowing monk with the Crane Style chain allows one blocked melee attack that provokes an AoO per round and forces a reflex save vs flatfooted until the end of your next turn.

Can be combined with scout for charge (w/ sneak attack, pounce if able), block attack on their turn for AoO and chance for sneak attack on every attack on your next turn. Lose one die of damage but allows multiple rounds of SA, even if charges are unavailable.

[RndmNumGen]

Flowing monk with the Crane Style chain allows one blocked melee attack that provokes an AoO per round and forces a reflex save vs flatfooted until the end of your next turn.

Can be combined with scout for charge (w/ sneak attack, pounce if able), block attack on their turn for AoO and chance for sneak attack on every attack on your next turn. Lose one die of damage but allows multiple rounds of SA, even if charges are unavailable.

True... but we then need:
- 2 Levels of Monk(Lose 1 BAB and 1d6 SA, averages to 9 damage)
- 4 Feats(Dodge, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte)

That seems like a pretty hefty investment when Shatter Defenses comes in earlier, only takes 3 feats, and doesn't allow a save. Depending on the build it could work, but I don't think it's really applicable in this situation... Flurry of Blows would be nice, though.

[Starbuck_II]

*sigh*
(Once again...)
Synthesist is NOT good for a 1-level Pounce dip.

You MUST be a Quadruped Eidolon to take Pounce.
Quadrupeds do NOT have arms.
Quad stats are 14 Str/14 Dex.
1st level only gives you 3 Evo-points.
Pounce costs 1, Arms cost 2.

You can take both though 1 +2=3.
What else are you wanting to take?





Powerful Sneak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/powerful-sneak-ex) and the improved version Deadly Sneak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/deadly-sneak-ex) may be worth a look.
Assuming we can get 10d6 Sneak dice, which doubles to 20d6 with Sap Master, Deadly Sneak will add 10 damage per attack (on average, powerful Sneak alone only adds 3.33 damage).


No Deadly sneak is bad. Worse than PA feat. Look at the penalty.
at most it makes you deal 1/2 damage with a -2 penalty if have both.
Powerful sneak though is +1 damage if doing minium damage for -2 hit, terrible trade.

[RndmNumGen]

You can take both though 1 +2=3.
What else are you wanting to take?

Maybe something like Improved Ability Score? By default the Quadruped only has 14 Str/14 Dex, which is only +2/+2. That's not a lot. You can't even pick up Two-Weapon Fighting with that.


No Deadly sneak is bad. Worse than PA feat. Look at the penalty.
at most it makes you deal 1/2 damage with a -2 penalty if have both.
Powerful sneak though is +1 damage if doing minium damage for -2 hit, terrible trade.
Oh. Wow. I wonder why I never noticed the -2 penalty... that is pretty bad.

[Barstro]

You can take both though 1 +2=3.
What else are you wanting to take?

The problem is the all that is associated with a one-level dip in Synthesist.

Note: there might have been decent errata since I last checked.

You must have the (quad) Eidolon around you to get pounce
If you have the Eidolon, your STR and DEX are 14
You cannot get the benefit of any armor if Eidolon is out (I think this is still debated)
Have to houserule many magic effects (poor wording of "humanoid or outsider, whichever is worse).

[Cieyrin]

You cannot get the benefit of any armor if Eidolon is out (I think this is still debated)

It's not still debated, it's been errata'd officially that you don't get armor while wearing your Eidolon.

[grarrrg]

We have a few options remaining:
Str or Dex focued? (still want/need 15 Dex for Two-Weapon fighting though)
Fists or Sap primary?
What to add for the last 5 levels?

If going Str+Fists then Dragon Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-style-combat) should definitely be considered. And if dipping Monk (Master of Many Styles?), then Dragon Ferocity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat) should be considered as well.
Dragon Style lets us Charge through Difficult terrain, and squares with Allies.
Dragon Ferocity gives us a +1/2 Str bonus on all Unarmed Strikes.


It's not still debated, it's been errata'd officially that you don't get armor while wearing your Eidolon.

They clarified the armor issue, and that you can heal the Eidolon HP with Rejuvenate Eidolon spells.
As for the 57 OTHER ISSUES with Synthesist... not so much.



No Deadly sneak is bad. Worse than PA feat. Look at the penalty.
at most it makes you deal 1/2 damage with a -2 penalty if have both.
Powerful sneak though is +1 damage if doing minium damage for -2 hit, terrible trade.

I agree that Powerful/Deadly are (usually) VERY weak, and you should NEVER take Powerful Sneak WITHOUT also (planning on) taking Deadly Sneak.
BUT if any build were to ever actually make GOOD use of them, this would be the build. Because their usefulness ultimately depends on how many Sneak dice you are rolling. A level 20 PF character can, theoretically, get 24 Sneak Attack dice, which comes out to +12 damage at -2 to hit, for the price of two Talents.

But they are not necessarily worse than Power Attack.
All examples assume a level 20 character with 10 Sneak dice.
Assume fighting with 2-handed weapon:
Sneak is -2 to-hit for 10 damage, 5 per talent (technically 3.33 for Powerful and 6.67 for Deadly, but you need Powerful to get Deadly)
Power Attack scales at a rate of -1 to-hit for +3 damage, so for best comparison -2 to-hit for +6 damage

Assume fighting with a 1-handed weapon, using 1 hand:
Sneak is still -2 to-hit for 10 damage, 5 damage per talent
Power Attack is -1 to-hit for +2 damage > -2 to-hit for +4 damage

Assume two-weapon fighting:
Sneak is now -2 to-hit for +20 damage, 10 per talent
Power Attack is -1 to-hit for +3 damage, +2 Main hand, +1 Off-hand > -2 to-hit for +6 damage

Power Attack has a better Ratio when 2-handed.
Sneak is slightly better for 1-handed.
Sneak is better for two-weapon fighting.

[Cieyrin]

They clarified the armor issue, and that you can heal the Eidolon HP with Rejuvenate Eidolon spells.
As for the 57 OTHER ISSUES with Synthesist... not so much.

I didn't say they were totally fixed, just that that issue had been officially addressed. Personally, I think that there should be a blog post rewrite but I don't see that happening any time soon, do you?

[grarrrg]

I didn't say they were totally fixed, just that that issue had been officially addressed. Personally, I think that there should be a blog post rewrite but I don't see that happening any time soon, do you?

My main complaint is that they didn't really try to fix it. They just picked a couple of things and called it 'good enough'.

[RndmNumGen]

We have a few options remaining:
Str or Dex focued? (still want/need 15 Dex for Two-Weapon fighting though)
Fists or Sap primary?

I was thinking STR focused, since that removes the need for Weapon Finesse and allows us to take Intimidating Prowess to add STR to Intimidate Checks, which we need to make to stick Shakened. With a 20 point-buy, we could stick something like:

19 Str
15 Dex
10 Con
12 Int
8 Wis
10 Cha

Fist would be nice since we would always have our weapon(as well as the choice of lethal/nonlethal, in case undead or constructs show up), but Saps would be cheaper to enchant. Saps also require less investment(no IUS needed). I'm leaning towards Saps because of this.


What to add for the last 5 levels?

Something with SA, surely. Could continue either Rogue or Alchemist for the Talents/Discoveries. I don't know of any PRCs that give full SA progression other than Assassin, which doesn't really fit.

Powerful/Deadly Sneak increases in value at later levels, but it's still pretty poor early on. Deadly effectively adds 1/3 a damage per SA dice, so you need a lot to be worthwhile.

[grarrrg]

I was thinking STR focused, since that removes the need for Weapon Finesse and allows us to take Intimidating Prowess to add STR to Intimidate Checks, which we need to make to stick Shakened. With a 20 point-buy, we could stick something like:...

Fist would be nice since we would always have our weapon(as well as the choice of lethal/nonlethal, in case undead or constructs show up), but Saps would be cheaper to enchant. Saps also require less investment(no IUS needed). I'm leaning towards Saps because of this.

You need/want at least 14 Int to use Extracts.

I see either STR+Fist or DEX+Sap
Str is good for Intimidating Prowess, and works nicely if we take Dragon Style/Ferocity. And taking Dragon Style would mean we need Unarmed Strikes.

We already need 15 Dex for Two Weapon Fighting, since we already invested that much, we may as well go further. Taking Weapon Finesse and enchanting our Saps with the Agile enchantment means we only need Str for carrying capacity.


Something with SA, surely. Could continue either Rogue or Alchemist for the Talents/Discoveries. I don't know of any PRCs that give full SA progression other than Assassin, which doesn't really fit.

You sir need to peruse my Class Dipping Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230500). Specifically the 3rd post, where I have (amongst other things) Sneak Attack classes broken down.
There are 2 types of Sneak classes we want to look at, those that get +1d6 at 1st level, and those that progress at an every-other-level rate (and give better bonuses than we could have from Rogue Talents). Either way, they should have low entry reqs. There are 11 PrC's that grant Sneak dice. After removing the ones that won't work for us (for various reasons) we have 3 PrC options left, and we can always take more Rogue/Alchemist/Master Chymist.


Rogue, every 2 levels (or Ninja if that was taken instead)
Alchemist, every 2 levels
Master Chymist, no Sneak (possibly every 2 w/DM approval)
Assassin 1, every 2 levels
Inner Sea Pirate 1, every 3 levels
Halfling Opportunist 2, every 2 levels

The 3 PrC options all have 3/4 Bab, so if Fractional Bab is NOT being used, I recommend against them.

Alchemist/Rogue depending on if you want more Talents or better Extracts. HIGHLY advise +1 level here, as that will net +1d6 Sneak right away.

1 level of Assassin is fine for +1d6 Sneak, although 3 levels is +2d6 & Uncanny Dodge, 5 levels would be +3d6 & Imp. Uncanny Dodge.

Inner Sea Pirate is really only useful for the 1 level dip for +1d6 Sneak. The only Pirate Trick worth looking at is the bonus on Disarm attempts, and I don't think that warrants a 2nd level.

Halfling Opportunist is either all 5 levels, or none. At 5th they can do Sneak Damage on EVERY Attack of Opportunity. You also must be a Halfling, which sort of rules out the 'high Str' option.

Master Chymist has Full Bab, so 4+ total levels would get us to 16 Bab (Iteratives!). At 2nd level you can grab Greater Mutagen for more/larger Stat-boosts. 3rd level is Brutality for an extra +2 damage on Natural attacks. It also advances Extracts. And you can maybe talk your DM into letting the +Bombs count as +Sneak since you traded Bombs for Sneak.


Powerful/Deadly Sneak increases in value at later levels, but it's still pretty poor early on. Deadly effectively adds 1/3 a damage per SA dice, so you need a lot to be worthwhile.

Correct, between Powerful Sneak and Deadly you only get .5 damage per Sneak Dice, meaning you need LOTS of Sneak dice. And this build will have LOTS of Sneak dice.
I'm not saying we 'need' to take it, I'm just saying it's there if we want it, and after comparing it to Power Attack, it seems...adequate.

[stack]

If going the master chymist route, unarmed strikes are better. Use your feet for the unarmed strikes, then still get the full bite/claw/claw routine from feral mutagen. You get double sneak attack on the unarmed strikes and normal on the natural attacks. That's enough D6's to...well it should hurt.