charop: easy mode: ur-priest help

[Venger]

hi all, this character is the partner in crime for this character:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13081094#post13081094 a drunken master.

as said in the other thread, the rest of the party is an elvish ftr4/rog2/dervish 2, and a warlock (possibly with a chameleon 2 dip, likely prcing into hellfire warlock) along with the drunken master, who's somewhat up in the air, but is definitely taking shock trooper and leap attack and rounding out with 5 lvls of zerth cenobite for psionic powers.

as you can see, the party needs a little beef, plus I'd been wanting to play this specific character and build for ages and finally have a chance to use him, so I thought now would be a good opportunity to do so. here's what I have thus far:

abilities: str 15 dex 11 con 14 int 11 wis 22 cha 16 (rolled, thus odd numbers)

HP skills: balance, bluff, diplo, arcana, local, nature, planes, religion, spell craft, UMD (adaptive),
1 HP 1: Extend Spell, persistent spell, (Malign Spell Focus, Invisible Spell)
skills: balance 1, bluff 4, arcana 4, planes 4, religion 4, spell craft 4, UMD 3,
2 passive way monk 1 (combat expertise)+2 bonus to bluff
arcana 1 (5), religion 1 (5), (extra : balance 3 (4), concentration 1)
3 passive way monk 2 (Knock-down) (improved trip) Iron Will (otyugh hole)
religion 1 (6) (extra: tumble 5)
4 HP 2: (bonus feat:hardened criminal (bluff) )
bluff 2 (6), planes 1 (5), religion 1 (7), spell craft 1 (5) (extra:UMD 1(4) )
5 HP 3: ability boost +2 wis
religion 1 (8), spell craft 3 (8) (extra: bluff 2 (8) )
6 UP 1 (Practiced Spellcaster: ur-priest)
UMD 1 (5) False Theurgy
7 UP 2 rebuke undead
Concentration 2 (3) UMD 1 (6)
8 UP 3
Concentration 2 (5), UMD 1 (7)

as you can see from the party's breakdown, my guy's the one with the most of a traditional caster vibe so I wanted to be somewhat buff-competent with UMD, which would also let me have stuff like lesser vigor on tap since ur priests can not convert prepared spells to healing spells.

I figured I'd go hierophant after my ur-priest levels were done for divine reach and a better CL (or metamagic feats if people can suggest some ones that would be useful)

knockdown means I can function as a tripper monk, helped out with a persisted divine might or the like and casting lets me put things like the vigors on the drunken master to help keep her up.

how can I fill in the cracks for the team without making anyone feel overshadowed? on the same note, I want to be able to do fun things too, so don't want to be 100% background. since the game is going to be planes-traveling, I think it's going to be sort of dangerous, hence my upping the ante powerwise after the character I'm currently playing (factotum/chameleon)

EDIT( forgot to mention. since it's in the same game, 2 flaws are in play and the DM ok'd the otyugh hole in my guy's backstory)

[Rejusu]

You might want to consider how worthwhile the Ur-priests class features are to you. Most of Ur-priests merit is in it's fast casting progression. Often it's just better to dip one level of it then take something that advances divine casting. I've had an itch to play a build that uses Bone Knight and Ur-priest.

At any rate I'd see whether or not you think it's worth staying in the class and then see if there's anything that will advance your progression while giving you the fun things you're looking for.

[docnessuno]

Most of Ur-priests merit is in it's fast casting progression. Often it's just better to dip one level of it then take something that advances divine casting.

Two levels
You do want rebuke undead for DMM, right?

Edit: also i'm still trying to figure out what HP is. Nevermind, the ability boost pointed me in the right direction (human paragon), but wasting two levels of spellcasting is rather.. bad tbh

What about Monk 4 / HP 1 / Ur 2 / HP +2 / Sacred fist 10?

[Rejusu]

Two levels
You do want rebuke undead for DMM, right?

Depends on whether you get it from another source or not. The Ur-priest build I've been toying with uses 4 levels of Paladin (Tyranny variant) to get Rebuke undead and uses the "Holy Warrior" (though I guess it's more of an unholy warrior) ACF to swap the 4th level spell casting (which would be lost by going Ur-priest) for a bonus feat.

Since Bone Knight gives 9/10 Divine casting taking a second level in Ur-priest would be wasteful so this works out better overall.

[Venger]

You might want to consider how worthwhile the Ur-priests class features are to you. Most of Ur-priests merit is in it's fast casting progression. Often it's just better to dip one level of it then take something that advances divine casting. I've had an itch to play a build that uses Bone Knight and Ur-priest.

At any rate I'd see whether or not you think it's worth staying in the class and then see if there's anything that will advance your progression while giving you the fun things you're looking for.

Well, I planned on taking all of ur-priest's class levels on purpose because spell resistance (even if it is just divine) is pretty nice and I really like its steal SLA ability. it's useful for summoned monsters and also there's a warlock in the party, so depending on what utterances she uses, those might be fun to borrow too.

depending on the consensus I get about whether hierophant's SLA ability is worthwhile, RAW, I can "steal" SLAs from myself, thus gaining an exta 2 uses/day of the SLA without paying for it via hierophant

steal SLA is a unique ability, and it's something I'd always wanted to try, so that's part of the reason I'd planned on completing ur-priest though I know it's not generally done.


Two levels
You do want rebuke undead for DMM, right?

Edit: also i'm still trying to figure out what HP is. Nevermind, the ability boost pointed me in the right direction (human paragon), but wasting two levels of spellcasting is rather.. bad tbh

What about Monk 4 / HP 1 / Ur 2 / HP +2 / Sacred fist 10?

I do indeed need rebuke undead for DMM, but since I get rebuke at level 7, I can't take DMM til 9. While ordinarily, I would agree with you about "wasting" the 2 caster lvls progressed by HP, one of the nice things about ur-priest is it only "has" 10 caster level to progress, you can't progress it past that. that essentially gives me 10 levels of stuff that don't have to advance CL. I took the human paragon levels in the order that I did because of the large amount of skills needed to get into ur-priest. your suggested build does not let me put the necessary ranks in planes, bluff, or spellcraft (CC for monks) in time to qualify for ur-priest on time.

burning a feat on combat casting makes me cry. besides, the player of the dervish is using a sacred fist in our other game, so I wouldn't want him to fel as though I am using his idea.

since there's a dervish and the drunken master in the party, I don't want them to feel I'm trying to overshadow them in melee combat.


Depends on whether you get it from another source or not. The Ur-priest build I've been toying with uses 4 levels of Paladin (Tyranny variant) to get Rebuke undead and uses the "Holy Warrior" (though I guess it's more of an unholy warrior) ACF to swap the 4th level spell casting (which would be lost by going Ur-priest) for a bonus feat.

Since Bone Knight gives 9/10 Divine casting taking a second level in Ur-priest would be wasteful so this works out better overall.

I am not planning to get rebuke undead from another source. my build thus far is human paragon1/monk2/hp3/ur-priest10/hierophant 5

while bone knight is indeed a great class, it doesn't mesh very well flavourwise for my character (the bonecraft armor graft, him not being from karnath, etc.) and it does require "wasting" a level since you need 2 of UP to get rebuke for DMM.

[docnessuno]

My bad for not catching up the skill rank issue.

Let me ask something, are you taking monk mostly for the wis to ac part? cause with only 2 monk levels, lots of lost BAB (your build should end up with BAB 13) and no related PRC i can't see any other real reason to do it.

To put it straight, what can your build do that a straight cleric 20 cannot do better? (well, beside getting lvl 9 spells 2 levels earlier)

[Venger]

My bad for not catching up the skill rank issue.

Let me ask something, are you taking monk mostly for the wis to ac part? cause with only 2 monk levels, lots of lost BAB (your build should end up with BAB 13) and no related PRC i can't see any other real reason to do it.

To put it straight, what can your build do that a straight cleric 20 cannot do better? (well, beside getting lvl 9 spells 2 levels earlier)


no problem at all! believe me, you don't notice until you start trying to actually build it. ur-priest is much harder to qualify for than you initially think it is.

Welp, I'm taking monk primarily to qualify for ur-priest on time. remember, fort and will saves must be +3/+3 by level 5. it also helps out by providing needed ranks in arcana and religion, getting them as class skills. it also has the helpful bonus of wis to AC, which is awfully nice, and gives a better boost than the mithral chainshirt from HP.

HP has a good will save, so 3 levels of it give +3 to will and +1 to fort, which is insufficient for ur-priest. 1 lvl of monk does technically fulfill the saves prereq, however, due to the number of ranks required in religion and spellcraft, it is impossible to enter ur-priest before level 6.

having one level "left," as it were, another in monk makes the most sense. free evasion, and imp trip from passive way combat style, qualifying me for the hilarious knock-down feat to follow in the footsteps of garland and knock all my enemies down.

so, I'm doing it for a little more than just wis to AC, although it is awfully nice to get my primary casting stat as an AC bonus.


my BAB does indeed end up at 13, losing 1 point from monk2 and hp3, 3 from up10 and 2 from hierophant5. but I don't care that much about BAB when I have persisted divine power whenever I need to gish it up.

if I can get a wis mod of +9 by level 14, then I'll be able to have a bonus spell then, getting it 3 levels before a cleric, the appeal of which is undeniable. my build has divine spell resistance (admittedly situational, but fun), can steal powerful outsiders' SLAs, can cheat the vancian system by giving himself an extra 9th per day burning a bunch of crummy low-level spell slots, can have either a CL of 24 (assuming spell powerx5), a whole mess of metamagic feats, casting all touch spells at a range of 60ft with no level adjuster, or any combination of the three, can cast spells without regard to alignment (in a planeshopping game, can be useful depending on if you're fighting slaadi or guardinals or whatever) and has no code of conduct to adhere to (not that I'm planning to play him chaotic derp, just to answer "what's he got over a cleric?")

what does cleric 20 have that he doesn't? Domains. while having neither obscure domain spells nor granted domain powers is something of a bitter pill to swallow, I feel that what I gain more than makes up for it.

[Rejusu]

while bone knight is indeed a great class, it doesn't mesh very well flavourwise for my character (the bonecraft armor graft, him not being from karnath, etc.) and it does require "wasting" a level since you need 2 of UP to get rebuke for DMM.

Fair enough. Regarding the "wasted" level though as I said before this is why if I was to do that build I'd get rebuke from Paladin 4 rather than taking UP2. Plus Paladin gives full BAB, the skills needed for BK (and a few of the UP skills) and since the intended entry for BK is Paladin things like the skeletal steed stack with your paladin levels.


no problem at all! believe me, you don't notice until you start trying to actually build it. ur-priest is much harder to qualify for than you initially think it is.

I can attest to this. It has what... 32 skill ranks as a requirement? And it's hard to find a class which has all of the skills needed as class skills too. Trying to get all your points in the space of 5 levels so you can enter it at 6 is difficult. What's worse is for my build I need an additional 10 skill ranks for Bone Knight. Somehow I've managed to work out a build that doesn't require an int modifer above 0 for it though. Involves being human (naturally) with Able Learner (of course) and then taking the first level in Bard. Purely because it gets (6+int)x4 at first level and has nearly all the skills needed.

I considered HP at first but it only gets 4+int and adaptive learning is made completely redundant by Able Learner. Really though I could use anything for that one level provided it had a good will save (as I only get +1 from Paladin 4) and the right skills. The requirements for UP really are demanding.

[Venger]

Fair enough. Regarding the "wasted" level though as I said before this is why if I was to do that build I'd get rebuke from Paladin 4 rather than taking UP2. Plus Paladin gives full BAB, the skills needed for BK (and a few of the UP skills) and since the intended entry for BK is Paladin things like the skeletal steed stack with your paladin levels.
sure, that's as good an option as any. either that or take some other kind of fast progression class and when you were done, dip cloistered cleric and cool your heels in bone knight for a while. CC1/BK4 is a decent way to round out a chameleon, for example.




I can attest to this. It has what... 32 skill ranks as a requirement? And it's hard to find a class which has all of the skills needed as class skills too. Trying to get all your points in the space of 5 levels so you can enter it at 6 is difficult. What's worse is for my build I need an additional 10 skill ranks for Bone Knight. Somehow I've managed to work out a build that doesn't require an int modifer above 0 for it though. Involves being human (naturally) with Able Learner (of course) and then taking the first level in Bard. Purely because it gets (6+int)x4 at first level and has nearly all the skills needed.

I considered HP at first but it only gets 4+int and adaptive learning is made completely redundant by Able Learner. Really though I could use anything for that one level provided it had a good will save (as I only get +1 from Paladin 4) and the right skills. The requirements for UP really are demanding.

yep, 32 skillpoints (and that's assuming they're all class skills at every level you take them, it might be more). more problematically, you need every single one of these skills to be class skills at some point since the ranks required are higher than the CC cap for a 5th lvl character.

it's actually an additional 12 for bone knight. 6 for armorsmithing, and 6 for ride. (religion's out of the way)

are you using bard for spells? divine bard to get into bone knight? does your build have ur-priest too? if you just need skills, you can't go wrong with factotum. factotum + able learner makes skills a lot less of a headache. what is your build?

in an earlier draft of this build, I went swashbuckler 1/monk2/swash3 before going UP. I still needed keeper of the forbidden lore for friggin' planes and spellcraft, but it could be DCFS'd away later (using the spell to actually get rid of an abyssal heritor feat you don't need anymore? first time the spell would ever be used for that) but this was a lot less hassle and let my guy cut down on MAD a bit, though admitttedly a monk/swash would be a lot of fun to play at low levels. dealing insightful strike on top of IUS's is a decent amount of damage early on, even if it doesn't scale very well. this also serves to show what a colossal pain in the ass it is to get into ur-priest.

how're you supposed to qualify? cleric. can clerics qualify? not really. he'd need the trickery domain for bluff, one of those feats, or apprentice (criminal) (all horrible choices. trickery domain's coolness aside, you lose domains as UP, so that's irrelevant) he'd need to be a human with a +2 int bonus (or other with a +3) from the getgo and essentially spend all his skills on prereqs.

this is to say nothing of the 5 dead levels of spellcasting you would have as a cleric, but that's neither here nor there.

what's an easier way to qualify for this fallen cleric class than a fallen cleric? why, obviously a demon-blooded hybrid pirate ninja.

of course.

[Rejusu]

yep, 32 skillpoints (and that's assuming they're all class skills at every level you take them, it might be more). more problematically, you need every single one of these skills to be class skills at some point since the ranks required are higher than the CC cap for a 5th lvl character.

Pretty much why my Paladin/Ur-priest/Bone Knight build is locked into human with able learner. The bonus skill points go a long way towards avoiding needing a good int score and Able Learner is required because the Paladin doesn't have half of what's needed for Ur-priest as class skills.


it's actually an additional 12 for bone knight. 6 for armorsmithing, and 6 for ride. (religion's out of the way)

Yeah I knew one of them was 4 and the other two 6 but I thought one of the 6's was Knowledge (religion). Drat, I think I still need a +1 int modifier at the minimum.


are you using bard for spells? divine bard to get into bone knight? does your build have ur-priest too? if you just need skills, you can't go wrong with factotum. factotum + able learner makes skills a lot less of a headache. what is your build?

Bard is purely used because it has all the skills needed for Ur-priest and a good will save. I did consider Factotum but they don't have a good will save, and I need that to qualify for Ur-priest (Paladin has me covered on the Fort side).

Basically it's Bard 1/Paladin 4/Ur-priest 1/Bone Knight 10/X 4

Bard purely for skills/saves, it can be replaced by anything really as long as it fits the criteria. I might shop around a bit more but it's hard to find something that has the right skills, a good number of starting skill points, and a good will save. Still it's not too bad, while I don't think I can get away with a 10 in int I can manage it with a 12. Irritatingly a 10 in int would leave me 1 skill point short (43 out of 44 skill ranks) by level 6.


how're you supposed to qualify? cleric. can clerics qualify? not really. he'd need the trickery domain for bluff, one of those feats, or apprentice (criminal) (all horrible choices. trickery domain's coolness aside, you lose domains as UP, so that's irrelevant) he'd need to be a human with a +2 int bonus (or other with a +3) from the getgo and essentially spend all his skills on prereqs.

this is to say nothing of the 5 dead levels of spellcasting you would have as a cleric, but that's neither here nor there.

what's an easier way to qualify for this fallen cleric class than a fallen cleric? why, obviously a demon-blooded hybrid pirate ninja.

of course.

Yeah it's kind of stupid how bad cleric is as an entry point. I honestly don't believe there's any good single class entry that can get in by level 6. You either have to wait until a later level (and miss out on the early access to higher level spells) or multi-class with able learner. The weird combinations of skills and the save requirements mean you have to jump through so many hoops for it. Even the sample Ur-priest in Complete Divine is Rogue 1/Cleric 4!

[Venger]

Pretty much why my Paladin/Ur-priest/Bone Knight build is locked into human with able learner. The bonus skill points go a long way towards avoiding needing a good int score and Able Learner is required because the Paladin doesn't have half of what's needed for Ur-priest as class skills.
okay. the fluff synergy between one of the evil pallies and bone knight is undeniable, and divine grace is always fun.

I was gonna suggest hexblade. he has bluff, arcana, ride, and spellcraft and 2 levels gives divine grace, 3 gives mettle plus full BA and good will. pally gives religion, but that still leaves you lacking planes without bard levels. knowledge devotion has no prerequisite other than 5 ranks in a knowledge (which you'd need anyway) and it gives you any other knowledge skill known. pick planes, and it is a class skill forever. this route might take a few more points in int, but would provide better synergy. you don't need bard lvls since you dont' have the urge to theurge, and this'd let you focus more on cha. hexblade3/pally2 would give you all the good stuff from both and then you could go UP. you could then get your rebuking from UP2 and have another class to use your +1 spellcasting n when you're done with bone knight so it's not "wasted"
hex3/pally2/up2/bone knight 10/xx3

I havent' tallied skills, but I think this should work. you've got everything as class skills, anyway.




Yeah I knew one of them was 4 and the other two 6 but I thought one of the 6's was Knowledge (religion). Drat, I think I still need a +1 int modifier at the minimum.
bone knight's kinda awkward, but it's no ur-priest.




Bard is purely used because it has all the skills needed for Ur-priest and a good will save. I did consider Factotum but they don't have a good will save, and I need that to qualify for Ur-priest (Paladin has me covered on the Fort side).
factotum is a tasty main course. factotum5/mindbender1/ur-priest2/xx 12 is a force to be reckoned with. you're ahead of normal casters starting at level 14, only 2 behind being ahead of normal casters at 12 if you'd entered at 5 somehow. plus it opens you up for mindsight.




Yeah it's kind of stupid how bad cleric is as an entry point. I honestly don't believe there's any good single class entry that can get in by level 6. You either have to wait until a later level (and miss out on the early access to higher level spells) or multi-class with able learner. The weird combinations of skills and the save requirements mean you have to jump through so many hoops for it. Even the sample Ur-priest in Complete Divine is Rogue 1/Cleric 4!
there is no single class that can enter ur-priest ontime except savage bard. don't bother making him divine though it makes you SAD since you lose divine spells anyways. also boosts your UP CL a little.

nope! the sample ur-priest is actually a cleric4/rog1, which is even more ridiculous. as you know, put your class with the most skill points at the beginning to maximise on quadruple skills. this character does not. he also has a 12 int, and is human. that means that at 1st lvl, he gets 16 skill points, 4 at each cleric level, and 10 at his rogue level. this lets him max out 4 skills at 1, let's say arcana, religion, planes, and spellcraft. he can add a point to arcana and planes at 2 and be done, and focus on religion and spellcraft. this leaves 2 points which can be put CC in bluff. same with 3rd and 4th. he now has 7 points in religion and spellcraft and 3 in bluff. for his rogue level, he can fill in some of those gaps in bluff, burning half of his 10 skill points and use 5 in other crap, or if he spent them on clerical stuff in lvls 1-4, he can cover all of bluff here.

while the other prereqs for UP are among the only skills in the game rogues don't get, those extra 30 skill points could have come in quite handy in making this character a little less awful. but for whatever reason, they put the levels in backwards.

even though it's possible, as shown above to meet the prereqs with this awful build, would you believe the sample character still somehow doesn't qualify? ( short a rank in bluff and doesn't have iron will) he does have WF:morningstar,which is hilarious.

[gorfnab]

How about Human Paragon 1/ Crusader 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ Crusader 3?

[Rejusu]

I was gonna suggest hexblade. he has bluff, arcana, ride, and spellcraft and 2 levels gives divine grace, 3 gives mettle plus full BA and good will. pally gives religion, but that still leaves you lacking planes without bard levels. knowledge devotion has no prerequisite other than 5 ranks in a knowledge (which you'd need anyway) and it gives you any other knowledge skill known. pick planes, and it is a class skill forever. this route might take a few more points in int, but would provide better synergy. you don't need bard lvls since you dont' have the urge to theurge, and this'd let you focus more on cha. hexblade3/pally2 would give you all the good stuff from both and then you could go UP. you could then get your rebuking from UP2 and have another class to use your +1 spellcasting n when you're done with bone knight so it's not "wasted"
hex3/pally2/up2/bone knight 10/xx3

Yes but doing it this way costs a feat and higher int (and you're already kind of MAD to begin with), enters BK a level later and still wastes a level of BK casting progression. BK only advances Divine spellcasting and Hexblade is arcane. Advancing Pally casting (assuming you don't lose it from UP because you don't actually have it yet) is somewhat pointless because you don't even get spellcasting until Paladin 4. You also lose 2 levels on your skeletal steed.

As I said before the only reason Bard is in there is because it fits the requirements: Good Will, high skill points, right skills. I could replace it with just about anything as long as it fits the brief. NPC expert would work as well, Bard is better though because it has class features.

Basically the way I've laid out this build is that I have a set of requirements I want to fulfil: the minimum level I must enter Ur-priest is 6 and the minimum level for Bone Knight is 7. I don't want to take Ur-priest 2 for Rebuke Undead because I want to take Bone Knight to it's cap and I don't want to waste a level of spellcasting advancement. I also don't want to delay my entry into it. I also want to minimize the int score I'd need to make this work as there's a threat of MAD to contend with, which means maximising my skill points.

Which means in those first 5 levels I have to:
A) Obtain a minimum of (44 - int modifier -3) skill points. The reason why it's minus 3 +int is because I'll get that much when I take the 6th level in Ur-priest.
B) Obtain Turn/Rebuke Undead, so I can qualify for Bone Knight and get DMM
C) Obtain most of the skills needed for Ur-priest as class skills at level 1.
D) Be human and take Able Learner
E) Attain base saves of +3 Fort/+3 Will
F) Minimize dead levels or abilities.

It's somewhat of a tall order and so far Bard 1/Paladin 4 is the best way I've found to do it. Bard just because of skill reasons and Paladin because it gives turn undead, I can trade the otherwise dead level of spellcasting for an extra feat, I can stack it's levels with my BK levels for my skeletal steed. It also gives full BAB and yet another immunity (fear) I can add on to the massive pile of immunities accumulated from Bone Knight. The -2 saves aura is rather nice too.

[Venger]

How about Human Paragon 1/ Crusader 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ Crusader 3?

well, crusader lacks bluff, arcana, planes, and spellcraft as class skills, which would make qualifying for UP problematic to say the least. my DM also doesn't allow ToB. I'm also not sure how well ur-priests' spurning of all gods would work with the ruby knight windicator's devotion to wee jas.

[Rejusu]

well, crusader lacks bluff, arcana, planes, and spellcraft as class skills, which would make qualifying for UP problematic to say the least. my DM also doesn't allow ToB. I'm also not sure how well ur-priests' spurning of all gods would work with the ruby knight windicator's devotion to wee jas.

Well I'm guessing that since this is human and with human paragon at 1st level it probably just selects the relevant skills using HP and takes Able Learner. Really with Able learner thrown into the mix as long as your first level has the required class skills for Ur-priest (or most of them) you don't have to worry about what the other classes give in terms of skills.

[Venger]

Well I'm guessing that since this is human and with human paragon at 1st level it probably just selects the relevant skills using HP and takes Able Learner. Really with Able learner thrown into the mix as long as your first level has the required class skills for Ur-priest (or most of them) you don't have to worry about what the other classes give in terms of skills.

while you are indeed right, one of the things that appealed to me about the HP/monk combo is that it doesn't need able learner or an int bonus to get all the skills on time, I'd rather be using that feat on something else, since UP gets very few skills/skillpoints, same with hierophant, so able learner's kind of dead weight after qualifying for UP, and it's against the rules to retrain it.

you are right though. for some reason I thought crusader got 2 points/lvl, but he actually gets 4, so that would work fine, but I cant use ToB, so the point is moot. I do appreciate the advice though, my apologies.

[gorfnab]

How about the tradition build Sacrilegious Fist? Duskblade 3/ Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3? You'll need Apprentice: Criminal as a first level feat for Bluff. This build gets you BAB 18, 9th level spells, and three ways to channel your spells into your fists.

[Venger]

How about the tradition build Sacrilegious Fist? Duskblade 3/ Monk 2/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3? You'll need Apprentice: Criminal as a first level feat for Bluff. This build gets you BAB 18, 9th level spells, and three ways to channel your spells into your fists.

While I do see the merit in the traditional sacrilegious fist build, I am leery of overshadowing the rest of the party too much, which I am concerned the sacrilegious fist with his 360 degrees of punch might do.

I also kind of wanted to come up with a way of getting into UP that I thought of, a sort of challenge. plus taking those skill feats makes me sad.

I had been reading up on "Dreadful Wrath," and it seems pretty sexy. I don't really have the stats to go AoO, nor am I really specced for it (receiving more than 1 AoO/round, I mean)

however, when an enemy is forced to flee, they will more often than not provoke AoOs since few classes receive it as a class skill and it can't be used untrained.

to this end. when a target is within 20 feet when I cast a spell, they save v frightful presence or are shaken for 1 minute. an intimidate to demoralise will get them to frightened and force them to flee, provoking an AoO which I can use for a melee attack, deal 10+ damage, get a free trip attempt, trip, and then get a free attack.

if I reshuffle the 15 to int instead of str (str via items is the same as real str, whereas int via headband doesn't give skillpoints, so genuine int is not possible to replicate) then I can just barely afford 8 ranks in intimidate by lvl 7 and never outnumbered at lvl 8.

is this a viable tactic? I know that UP doesn't get intimidate as a class skill. should I scrap the whole UMD angle and let the party fend for themselves in this regard? with the only other "caster" being a warlock, we will be hard-up for utility spells. however, from what I understand about their class, they have the wand crap covered. is this true? I know how warlocks work in theory but have never seen one in practice past about level 4. can I safely leave the UMD shenanigans to her and take intimidate as my adaptive skill?

is intimidate worth using my hardened criminal skill mastery on?

if I don't invest these resources in intimidate and my number of ranks stays a flat 8 (2 synergy, 3 or more from cha for mod of 13+) is it gonna do anything? how well do enemies' saves via intimidate's weird level check scale?

is intimidate worth investing resources in? (skill mastery, adaptive learning, skil points every level) it does seem a somewhat effective way to control the battlefield. I know that a low dex and lack of combat reflexes is suboptimal, but I find the knockdown chain better. plus, I'd need to be in melee with 2+ guys for CR to be worthwhile over knockdown, and that's obviously a bad idea.

[nedz]

Its hard to know what you are looking for, I guess thats why you made the thread ? So I'll try to pose some questions which may help to focus this.

You seem to want a divine buffer who also does melle ?
But not too powerful ?
And not a Theurge ?
But not too much melle ?

UMD
The Warlock should be better at UMD than this build, but UMD is very powerful. Does the party need two UMDers ?

Intimidate
A good option perhaps, but slightly resource intensive. My main question here is: by the time you get this - will you ever use it ? I.E. will the action economy dictate that there are always better things to do with your actions ?
This sounds like a fifth wheel to me.

[Venger]

Its hard to know what you are looking for, I guess thats why you made the thread ? So I'll try to pose some questions which may help to focus this.
lolyes. that is why I made the thread. I have a pretty good working knowledge of the rules and game, but like anyone, I have to know what to look for first.


You seem to want a divine buffer who also does melle ?
But not too powerful ?
And not a Theurge ?
But not too much melle ?
I do want a divine caster who can do a little melee too. At early levels (as posted, we're starting at 8), since my spells are a tad behind the curve, I think that my capabilities would be better used in buffing the drunken master (and myself) than throwing save spells at the enemy that they could probably resist.

I know ur-priest is the best class for theurging, but I actually think steal SLA is very cool and would love a chance to use it on powerful outisders. divine SR is kind of nice too. Also I am concerned theurging with ur-priest would make me overshadow the party too much

I say not too much melee because I don't have the stats to support it and also the drunken master has melee as her only thing for the forseeable future, whereas my guy can have multiple things, so there's no reason to intrude on another player's area of specialisation. I do want some melee because I like the knockdown combo (in theory. never used it) and want to put it to use, and I think that'd be easiest with a little str. ( I can use items, spells, etc)

UMD
The Warlock should be better at UMD than this build, but UMD is very powerful. Does the party need two UMDers ?
while I know in theory you are right, the warlock's player is really bad at building characters (is playing a blaster wizard in our other game) and I don't know what exactly she's using. if I could not worry about the UMD ranks, I'd be able to have a little more wiggle room for my intimidate ranks and could more easily make that my adaptive and skill mastery skill (can't think of another skill this character would actually use that those two would go better on)

the way my DM runs combat doesn't make things especially difficult, so I don't think 2 UMDers should be necessary as far as that's concerned.


Intimidate
A good option perhaps, but slightly resource intensive. My main question here is: by the time you get this - will you ever use it ? I.E. will the action economy dictate that there are always better things to do with your actions ?
This sounds like a fifth wheel to me.[/QUOTE]
yeah, it is a little resource intensive. that was kind of what I was asking. I've never played a wintimidator before, and don't know how well it scales with level. if it's not going to be useful after, let's say, lvl 12, then investing this much in it doesn't make sense.

is there any way to intimidate more efficiently than a standard action? fearsome armor enhancement on my bracers of armor's an option later when I have more money. is avenging executioner worth it? it seems like the fear stacking it provides would work quite well with what I want to do (and sneak attack never hurt anyone)

nar demonbinder, traditionally paired with UP for theurging also looked sort of nice, plus it'd let me planar bind to get cool outsiders since that's not on the cleric list.

[Cor1]

INTIMIDATE (CHA)

Use this skill to get a bully to back down, to frighten an opponent, or to make a prisoner give you the information you want. Intimidation includes verbal threats and body language.

Check: You can change another's behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target's modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target's Wisdom bonus [if any] + target's modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target's check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target's default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

If you fail the check by 5 or more, the target provides you with incorrect or useless information, or otherwise frustrates your efforts.

Twink out your Intimidate modifier through the roof by the usual methods, cower everything forever. I've seen an Intimodomancer in-game, it works terrifyingly well. (You know many things with over one hundred hit dice?)

[Venger]

Twink out your Intimidate modifier through the roof by the usual methods, cower everything forever. I've seen an Intimodomancer in-game, it works terrifyingly well. (You know many things with over one hundred hit dice?)

do you have any tips for how to do that? like I've said, I haven't played a wintimidator before. is hardened criminal's skill mastery with intimidate a good start? I assume I'll mae it my adaptive skill through HP to keep putting points in it (they're good for little else)