On Dual-Wielding Warhammers

[Uncensored]

I've had a vague concept for a character in my mind for a few weeks now, and I'd appreciate some advice constructing it.

(note: I've only gotten back into playing 3.5 recently after about seven years off)

So here are some questions:


What is the best* dual-wielding melee class?
Are Warhammers really the best one-handed choice for bludgeoning weapons?
Is it worthwhile to combine weapons, such as a Warhammer in one hand and a Scimitar(or somesuch) in the other? Or would the demand for weapon specialization feats ruin it? [I consider this to deal with enemies of all* types]


On top of that, any miscellaneous info will be scrutinized and considered.





*Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Aegis013]

Best melee classes for dual wielding, I would think, are probably Warblade, Swordsage, or Duskblade. The ToB classes get the Tiger Claw maneuvers, which are quite good for two weapon fighters. Duskblade gets that nifty channeling. If you dual wield with one, at level 13 when you can full attack + channel spells, you can hit the enemy with a spell quite a few times.

I'm not sure Warhammers are the best, I haven't really used 1h bludgeoning dual wielder before, but I don't think it matters if you do two different weapons, as the weapon specialization feats are really not especially good and you're better off taking other options anyway. If you end up taking weapon focus or more single weapon oriented feats, sticking to that weapon is probably a good idea.

[Larkas]

If you're willing to suck up a feat tax and a -2 AC penalty, I think that the best option for you are two Warmaces, described in Complete Warrior, since they do 1d12 damage each.

[gbprime]

If you're going to go all blunt on someone ( :smallwink: ), you might want to look up the Three Mountains weapon style in Complete Warrior.

[Arranis Thelmos]

The first thing that came to my mind was a fighter. Yes, just the classic PHB fighter. If you've only just got back into 3.5, it might just be a good idea to start simple and get more advanced as you move on. Especially depending on what books you have. If you're just a first lever fighter you could go for the two weapon fighting feat and weapon focus, a good combination early on in the game.

[Uncensored]

If you're willing to suck up a feat tax and a -2 AC penalty...

I was hoping not to require any more than the two-weapon fighting feats.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you don't want to require more than the "two weapon fighting" or "improved two weapon fighting", than your secondary weapon needs to be Light.

Personally, I favor Greatsword and Armor Spikes for two weapon fighting, if you are a Fighter.

[Uncensored]

If you don't want to require more than the "two weapon fighting" or "improved two weapon fighting", than your secondary weapon needs to be Light.

That was what I was forgetting!

That means I'd be stuck with Light Hammers (1d4 :smallfrown: ) or... actually, that seems to be about it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Are you REALLY focused on doing bludgeoning damage?

If so, why?

Like I said. If you are a Fighter, why not Two Weapon Fight with Greatsword and Armor Spikes?

Or even two handing a spiked shield and armor spikes?

[Uncensored]

I haven't yet decided on a class; that was part of the discussion.

And I was interested in dual-wielding hammers as the theme of the character.

Assuming that I was going to use a Warhammer or Warmace in each hand, what would I need to do to get my penalties as low as possible, and preferably get bonuses?

[Gavinfoxx]

Well...

lets see.. go with Sneak Attack Fighter.

Use a Warhammer in one hand, and a Light Hammer in the other.

Get Two Weapon Fighting...

[gbprime]

Assuming that I was going to use a Warhammer or Warmace in each hand, what would I need to do to get my penalties as low as possible, and preferably get bonuses?

There's an app... err, feat... for that. Oversize Two Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer pg 111). It allows you to use a regular weapon in your off hand instead of a light weapon. So that plus Two Weapon Fighting gets you your double warhammers.

[Gavinfoxx]

There's an app... err, feat... for that. Oversize Two Weapon Fighting (Complete Adventurer pg 111). It allows you to use a regular weapon in your off hand instead of a light weapon. So that plus Two Weapon Fighting gets you your double warhammers.

Yea, but is it worth it, really??

[TheRinni]

I'm going to post a mention of my favorite duel-wielding build: Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick). It uses a Longsword and Handaxe. There are also a lot of interesting Style Feats (http://dndtools.eu/feats/categories/style/)out there that make use of numerous other duel-wielding combinations.

[gbprime]

Yea, but is it worth it, really??

Not normally, no. You only take it if you want style over substance

http://theshellcase.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/wpid-m1181835_99060202120_colvaltenchampionmain_873x627 .jpeg?w=549http://pics.livejournal.com/lunafanatique/pic/0000b31t


or if you have a good reason (like powering Three Mountains with a morning star in each hand).

[Answerer]

Since you're new to the game/don't remember details, I'll point out that dual-wielding is not a very good strategy in general. If you're going to do it, make sure you have a source of serious bonus damage (Sneak Attack et al.) to make it at least somewhat worth your while.


Anyway, this post is structured assuming the fewest books, and progressing to more books. If you have Tome of Battle, I strongly recommend just skipping to the end where I discuss that; the rest of the post is about trying to do this without Tome of Battle, which gets messy.

Overall, a TWF-er needs three things: a serious damage booster (to make all those attacks count), improved mobility (to be able to move and still get all those attacks), and feats (since TWF burns a lot, plus you'll need more for your other schticks).


For damage boosting, you need class features. The difference in weapons' damage dice is all but meaningless, and your feat-based options are pretty meh. Do not spend a feat on +1 to +2 damage. Weapon Specialization, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Warmace), Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (for avoiding Light weapons): all of these are traps. You need too many feats to be wasting your time with these.

Anyway, Sneak Attack is the traditional answer; if you are Core-only, you're looking at (probably) Barbarian 1/Rogue 19. Maybe Barbarian 1/Rogue 9/Assassin 10. (see below for why Barbarian is showing up here, by the way; it could be replaced by anything but Rogue 20, which is literally absolutely worthless)

There are other sources of Sneak Attack that are largely equivalent or worse than the Rogue; I'm going to ignore those. Taking an odd number of Rogue levels and odd numbers of other Sneak Attack-granting classes is a pretty smooth move, though, for boosting your Sneak Attack damage (for instance, a Rogue 3/Spellthief 1 has +3d6 Sneak Attack damage while a Rogue 4 still is at +2d6). Also, if you have Champions of Ruin, Craven is a must-have feat.

When Sneak Attacking, your two best bets are either to always be flanking with an ally (talk to them to set up flanking situations), or else forcing the other guy to be off balance with either marbles (Arms & Equipment Guide), or a Wand of Grease (or a friendly Sorcerer or Wizard casting Grease, which he should be doing anyway). Characters who are Balancing and do not have 5 ranks in Balance lose Dex to AC, and thus are subject to Sneak Attacks.

Invisibility (either from Greater Invisilibility, a better version of the same spell, or some feature that either references Greater Invisibility or "invisibility" the status condition; not anything that works like Invisibility the spell) is another good avenue. Various other methods of not being seen can work (Darkness plus the ability to see in magical darkness, Hide in Plain Sight, etc.).

If you have Magic Item Compendium, consider weapon crystals for Sneak Attacks against ordinarily-immune creatures; if you have Spell Compendium, Wands of Vinestrike et al. are the choice for the same issue.

If you have Complete Adventurer, the Scout's Skirmish ability can also work, plus if you have Complete Scoundrel you can take the Swift Hunter feat to take advantage of the Ranger's bonus feats, sans Dex requirements. If you have Spell Compendium, the Ranger even gets some useful spells.

Do not try to use pure Paladin or Ranger for this, though; their damage boosts are too infrequent (Smite) or two small (Favored Enemy) to be worthwhile. Fighter doesn't get any significant damage boosters, either; Weapon Specialization's +2 is hardly worth even remembering you have.

The other major damage booster out there is Inspire Courage; it's not enough in Core, but with the right books, you can seriously amp it up (Dragonfire Inspiration in Dragon Magic is the most useful, but hardly the only option). If you go for Bard, though, Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) is the best route, and it requires a Slashing weapon. Note that with the right feats/alternate class features (Harmonious Knight, Initiate of Milil), Paladin can get Inspire Courage and basically work the same way as a Bard. This is the exception to what I was saying about Paladins above.


The next major issue, for all melee characters but especially for TWF-ers, is mobility. To use all the attacks you're getting, you ordinarily need a Full-attack, which means you can only move 5 ft. at a time. This is bad, because instead of getting 2-7 attacks, you get 1. Doesn't take a genius to realize that your turn's effectiveness just got trashed.

The easiest options for this are both in Complete Champion. I know, I said I'd start with the options that require the fewest books, but the options without Complete Champion are frustratingly limited; you'll have to come up with something, but it's gonna be a serious pain. Look up Person_Man's list of things, look up "Pounce or similar", and find something you can use.

Note that Spring Attack and similar are not solutions. These do nothing for you; Dodge and things that require it should be avoided unless a really good PrC require them. Note that Mobility (the feat) can be gotten with armor that has Mobility (the special ability), which might save you some trouble on things that have it as a requirement. But a lot of things that require these bad feats are also bad classes, so be careful.

Anyway, with Complete Champion, Travel Devotion is a great feat, but you'll need Turn Undead to get the most use out of it, so that means a Cleric dip. Cleric 1 is probably the single most useful level a build can have, though, so that's no big loss: the amount of stuff you can get from that one level is staggering.

The other easy option probably fits better, though: Barbarian 1, with the Spirit Lion Totem alternative class feature found in Complete Champion, gets you Pounce, which is the ability to Full-attack at the end of a charge. Barbarian 1 also gets you a good chassis and Rage, which is solid, or better, Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ), a variant, which gives you another attack (to which you should be applying bonus damage).

Even without Complete Champion, a 1-level dip in Barbarian is looking really good for this character, by the way. I would not recommend more than 1 level, though; take Extra Rage (Complete Warrior) if you need more uses of Rage.


The third issue is probably the simplest: feats. You need at least Two-Weapon Fighting, probably Improved TWF and Greater TWF as well. Those require a lot of Dex, so Weapon Finesse looks nice. That's an awful lot of feats just to get started, and I've already recommended several other feats for specific builds, so you may need to take some levels in Fighter just for the feats. Don't take more than 2, though; if you need the feats that badly, Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) 2 gets you another 2.

For that matter, Psychic Warrior has a lot to recommend it in general. Expansion and Hustle are both excellent Powers that would help a lot, plus they get some damage-boosting Powers which would allow those attacks to hurt. Psychic Warriors are probably a better with their Power-manifested Natural Weapons, though, especially for builds looking to maximize number of attacks.


The other, better answer here is Tome of Battle: it solves all of the above issues in your choice of two classes, no dips necessary, feats optional, and they work with whatever weapon you want. They're simple, effective, and really fun to play, to boot. If this is an option, I cannot recommend it enough.

Even better would be Swordsage or Warblade (both Tome of Battle); these get access to methods of attacking and moving at the same time, which is normally a serious problem for martial characters. They can both gain the ability to attack with two weapons as a standard action at 1st level (though they cannot do this every round; see the book for the exact limitations), plus various damage-boosters and utility abilities. The Crusader's cool too (actually, he's my favorite by a good margin), but he doesn't get access to the TWF stuff.


The last option that I haven't really covered is some sort of spellcaster. To be honest, Cleric is probably better than most of what I've written above, even just at being a dual-wielding warrior-type. Once you get into really using his spells, he blows all of this out of the water.

The Wizard or Sorcerer can also get in on this; Arcane Trickster, if nothing else, is pretty good, plus there are plenty of spells that enhance damage. Arcane Strike becomes another damage boosting option. And, of course, when you start playing one as a spellcaster, they are among the most powerful classes in the game, far, far more powerful than any others mentioned here aside from Cleric (and Wizard is probably just a smidgen more powerful than Cleric, but that's a really silly debate to have considering how ridiculous they both are). Druid probably could do the TWF thing too, but that would be silly when he can just turn into a bear or dinosaur or something.

[Leon]

Yea, but is it worth it, really??

Anything is if its what you want to do. Got a neat idea that you want to play with then try it. If it works to your satisfaction then awesome, if not then try something else till you find what is good.

[Red_Dog]

In before Tempest ^^

So yeah, I think everyone forgot to mention tempest?

Its a neat class from complete Adventurer who's whole gimmick is => fighting with two weapons. It is however, NOT really great as it eats feats with both hands and probably feet and you only get in by lvl7 and you can't wear anything heavier than light[read mithril breast plate me thinks]

=>The main issue is needing 5 feats and BAB 6 to enroll, which makes it hard to get in. Fighter 2 and ECL6 should be enough to pump the necessary feats.

=>The main advantage is getting attack penalties reduced along with getting to apply feats to different weapons that you wield. As a "cap stone" you get 2weapon spring attack.

=>The main "build" for my taste that involves Tempest would be Fighter 2/Barbarian 2[wolf & spirit lion]/something 2/Tempest X. You could also pick up over-sized weapon fight to pounce and do Leap attack to do x2PA of each hand and full Str bonuses. This eats a LOT more feats than Shock Trooper chain and a large metal object in two hands. But it gets slightly better damage and it does look cool [especially if you are a half-orge with strong arm bracers wielding 2 huge weapons ^^].

===================================>

Additionally weapon style feats might help you in your venture, but most of them want more feats. If you want to go for Tempest, try combing it with Elusive Target, to provoke attacks and trip opponents. Also, try convincing your DM to let you capitalize on Spring attack->Bounding Assault->Rapid Blitz chain and make 6 attacks and not 2 as you zoom by. Could be fun ^^

P.S. Gavinfoxx=> by math alone, oversized TWF is "worth it" if you are making a "steel hurricane" as you get to PA with both, and leap attack gives greater returns. You also get effective double str and not 1.5.
Its actually done without tempest[*rollseyes*, yes a fighting class I mentioned is not great at what it does, surprise surprise ^^], but just getting maybe dex 17-19[not hard with a 24h item, if DM clears it] and getting 2-3 off-hand attacks & whirling frenzy gives nice returns. Since all one truly need is 4 extra feats, a fighter 2 human works like a charm dip as usual ^^. Its not something to loose your head over, but it spices up the routine ^^.

[docnessuno]

The problem with tempest is that by large consesus is a sub-par class, while broodclaw master (ToB) is a very effective PrC with the same focus. and HUGE bonuses like:
Full strenght to damage on off-hand attack (lvl 1)
+2 unnamed to strenght for a short duration, limited times/day (lvl 1-3-5)
No penality fot TWF (lvl 2)
Manouvers and stances

The drawback is the average BaB (as rogue), but a 2-4 level dip is a huge boon for any TWFs and well worth the 1 BaB lost.


A sample build is:
Warblade 2
Lion totem barbarian 2
Warblade +2
Broodclaw master 2-4

[Larkas]

Answerer is right about the Warmaces, btw. They do, on average, 2 more damage than your regular Warhammer, but they generally are not worth the feat for using them. That is, unless your DM uses Weapon Group Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm): in that case, it wouldn't take an extra feat at all :smallsmile:

[Cieyrin]

In before Tempest ^^

You forget Dervish, which was the go-to pre-ToB/Travel Devotion, for which Tempest is the 5 level extension. The issue with Dervish for TWFing is it requires slashing weapons, which warhammers or warmaces wouldn't be. I also can't think of a bludgeoning and slashing weapon like there is for bludgeoning and piercing (morningstar) or slashing and piercing (eagle's claw). Also the fact that these days, Dervish pairs better with Revenant Blades or Bloodclaw Masters but Tempest can still work as a follow-up.

[Uncensored]

What about Warshaper?

It feels like I should be able to do something with that.

[Cieyrin]

What about Warshaper?

It feels like I should be able to do something with that.

I'm not actually sure what Warshaper does for dual-wielding or warhammers, except for granting stat boosts and reach and generally requiring specific races to start from (read: Changeling or Shifter).

[Uncensored]

... requiring specific races to start from (read: Changeling or Shifter).

Actually, if you know the polymorph spell, you can take it. Heck, if you have any way of changing your shape(Alter Self, Polymorph, etc.), you qualify.

[Answerer]

Warshaper is a good PrC, but it's much better with natural weapons than it is with manufactured weapons.

And Cieyrin's point is that getting those sorts of abilities on a martial character is difficult without particular races that have them naturally. Hence Changeling or Shifter, both of which have the Shapechanger subtype.

[Uncensored]

What about this build:

Fighter /1
Druid /5
Warshaper

My thinking was to use natural warhammers... if that's a thing.

You know, the more I think about it, the sillier that idea seems.

[ngilop]

Natural warhammers...


you mean fists?

[gbprime]

Warshaper isn't good for druids, because your spell casting stops after level 5.

[Answerer]

Yeah, Warshaper doesn't really give anything that simply getting bigger and badder animals to turn into wouldn't give.

As for "natural warhammers," you could look for some animal that has clubby-type things (certainly ankylosaurus would, but that's only one), but for the record, there is a way to literally get natural warhammers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/graftWeapon.htm).

EDIT: I managed to spell "ankylosaurus" correctly off the top of my head, with the exception of transposing the 'y' and the 'l'. My eight-year-old self would be proud.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I say that greater two weapon fighting is not worth it unless you have full BAB or really close to full bab (17 at the minimum IMO) as an attack at -10 has a really low chance to hit unless you have an abnormally huge attack bonus.

As for Improved two-weapon fighting if you have access to the MIC I suggest you skip it and get Gloves of the Balanced Hand a magic item which let's you act as if you had ITW (or TWF if you don't have the actual feat) and as per the rules in the same book you can add enhancement bonus without having it be more expensive. It is also relatively cheap, around 8k GP IIRC. These gloves are awesome cause they free a feat to use on other more useful stuff.

[Soranar]

Well I happen to have a dual wielding warhammer build:

Race: jungle dwarf
Alignment: must be Lawful Good

STATS (32 pts)

STR 16 (main stat)
DEX 8 (dump)
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 16
CHA 6 (dump)

1 Barbarian (Lion totem, for pounce) weapon focus: warhammer
2 Ranger
3 Ranger iron will
4 Ranger
5 Ranger
6 Ranger open feat
7 Ranger
8 Battlesmith
9 Ranger open feat
10 Ranger
11 Hammer of Moradin
12 Hammer of Moradin open feat
13 Hammer of Moradin
14 Ranger
15 Ranger open feat
16 Ranger
17 Deepwarden
18 Deepwarden open feat
19 Warblade
20 Warblade

abilities: GTWF without a DEX requirement (from ranger levels)

, CON bonus replaces DEX for AC (deepwarden)

, WIS added to damage with warhammers (battlesmith)
Warhammers get 1.5 times your STR to damage while 1 handed, works even in the off hand as nothing says it doesn't(hammer of moradin)

no xp penalty

couldn't think of anything to finish it with so 2 levels of Warblade to complete the build (with initiator level 10, it's the most efficient time to dip)

This is not a perfect build mind, it entails gradually changing alignments from nonlawful (barbarian) to lawful (hammer of moradin) over 10 levels. Roleplay wise it's doable but you can also opt to find a different way to pounce. Barb 1 is just the simplest.

[Averis Vol]

for race and weapons you could go dwarf with a pair of dwarven throwers. they're warhammers with the throwing and returning ability, they do an extra d8 when thrown (i believe, AFB) and they can wreck giants if you happen upon them. all in all a nice conceptual weapon except for they're like 50k a piece. then jsut take power and brutal throw and go to town.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well I happen to have a dual wielding warhammer build:

Race: jungle dwarf
Alignment: must be Lawful Good

STATS (32 pts)

STR 16 (main stat)
DEX 8 (dump)
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 16
CHA 6 (dump)

1 Barbarian (Lion totem, for pounce) weapon focus: warhammer
2 Ranger
3 Ranger iron will
4 Ranger
5 Ranger
6 Ranger open feat
7 Ranger
8 Battlesmith
9 Ranger open feat
10 Ranger
11 Hammer of Moradin
12 Hammer of Moradin open feat
13 Hammer of Moradin
14 Ranger
15 Ranger open feat
16 Ranger
17 Deepwarden
18 Deepwarden open feat
19 Warblade
20 Warblade

abilities: GTWF without a DEX requirement (from ranger levels)

, CON bonus replaces DEX for AC (deepwarden)

, WIS added to damage with warhammers (battlesmith)
Warhammers get 1.5 times your STR to damage while 1 handed, works even in the off hand as nothing says it doesn't(hammer of moradin)

no xp penalty

couldn't think of anything to finish it with so 2 levels of Warblade to complete the build (with initiator level 10, it's the most efficient time to dip)

This is not a perfect build mind, it entails gradually changing alignments from nonlawful (barbarian) to lawful (hammer of moradin) over 10 levels. Roleplay wise it's doable but you can also opt to find a different way to pounce. Barb 1 is just the simplest.

It's not too hard - changing from NG to LG only requires a standard issue 10 foot pole and a friendly wizard to cast grease...

Why don't you buy the Iron Will feat (Otyugh Hole)? That'd free up another feat for your build.

[Larkas]

Actually, if you know the polymorph spell, you can take it. Heck, if you have any way of changing your shape(Alter Self, Polymorph, etc.), you qualify.

That was probably changed to the alternate form special quality. See this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a).

[Ralasha]

I would actually suggest the ranger path. It can be used in conjunction with using Warhammers as thrown weapons. The Hammer of Moradin and Battlesmith are also good ideas. I built mine differently however (As I wasn't a Dwarf, but a Goliath), but again, having limited books...
I would require knowing which books you currently have, or have access to. As I dislike making rash assumptions or giving advice which may, or may not be feasible based on the individual's situation.

Can you list those books to which you have access?

[Uncensored]

Can you list those books to which you have access?

Combined with my co-dungeoneers, I've got pretty much everything.

[Ralasha]

Ranger for two weapon fighting since you can't qualify otherwise with a low dex.

Two Warhammers.

Iron Will, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Indomitable Will.

Ranger,
Battle Smith,
Hammer of Moradin (Throwing, returning auto-properties),
Dwarven Paragon.

If you don't want to be a Dwarf (Racially) but still qualify for this stuff: Stoneborn (Dwarf) from Races of Stone, three levels, become a dwarf with a +2 con bonus from the class, stone cunning, Dwarven Racial Weapon Proficiencies, etc.