Capture That Wizard.

[bloodtide]

You have a 10th level wizard. And I want to capture you. Some say it's impossible. Some say it's easy. So can you build a 10th level wizard that can't be caught?

As it can get beyond crazy, we will have to set boundaries.

*Obviously only Wizards D&D stuff. Standard WBL.
*Keep the wizard normal, as this is an example of the average wizard can be captured. So while you can make a build with an exotic prestige class(often with the no role-playing cheat) or a rare feat or spell or such, we want more 'just a wizard', not an optimized wizard nightmare cheat of a character.
*We are also talking about a normal character in a normal world. So this character is active for 16 hours a day and sleeps for 8. They need to eat and rest and otherwise do all the normal things people do. Making a wizard that lives 24/7 in a magical fortress is pointless.
*Note that with above we are talking about a wizard character that is awake and active a full 16 hours a day. And at the start, they have no idea they are being hunted. So we are not talking about a 'fight scene' where the wizard has cast and done a dozen things to protect themselves right before an attack. For right now we are looking for what a wizard can do, in general, on a day to day basis. We are not looking for ''how would a wizard avoid a trap he knowing walked into''.
*We are assuming a social wizard, not a hermit. So anything that would not be socially acceptable in 'normal society' is out.
*No Infinite Loops or other such rubbish. We want a real wizard character.
*The character can't 'just' be an escape artist. While you can make this character and that is all fine and good, it does not really prove the point that you can capture the average wizard. The character needs to be a typical adventuring type wizard.

So can anyone make this wizard?

[Eisenfavl]

As the original initiator of this challenge, I definitely volunteer.
Stop saying 'optimised cheat'. By definition optimising is not cheating, because then you are not following the framework which you are optimising in.
My wizard is going to have lots of prestige classes, because my wizard who I play in games does.
Socially acceptable accepts interacting with cities and going on quests as their standard modus operandi?
What restrictions are you putting on yourself?

[Gavinfoxx]

This is a remarkably hostile way to tone your post... Could you maybe be a bit less aggressive?

Why don't we start by talking about which social and economic activities a Wizard, at level 10, would need to do, or might feel a reason to do? And what his job is

And how much wealth by level he has, and whether he can extend that by crafting, and if he expects to be the target of assassination in general, if not in particular?

[bloodtide]

As the original initiator of this challenge, I definitely volunteer.
Stop saying 'optimised cheat'. By definition optimising is not cheating, because then you are not following the framework which you are optimising in.
My wizard is going to have lots of prestige classes, because my wizard who I play in games does.
Socially acceptable accepts interacting with cities and going on quests as their standard modus operandi?
What restrictions are you putting on yourself?

1. I by no means am trying to say that all optimization is cheating. I'm fine with all good, normal optimization. Now what I define as ''optimization cheating'' is where people take things too far, and either bend the rules or out right cheat. Finding a single line in a book that says ''when the wizard rests on the bed they regain all there spells for the day as if they had rested a full 8 hours'' and then having a wizard character cast 40 spells, lay on the bed, cast 40 spells, then lay on the bed and so on....is simply cheating...even if that is what is written on the page.

2. I'm mostly fine with prestige classes, but don't like the cheating that can be done here as well.

3.Well, we are looking for a 'normalish wizard' as said you can go off the deep end an do all sorts of stuff, but a normal character can't live like that.

4.Well, I want to stick to mundane before magical. To prove that can be done. That is why it needs to be a normal world with normal lives, and not a crazy hermit super buffed and optimized wizard living in a tower 24/7 in an extra-dimensional space as a dire tortoise.

What restriction would you want for the 'foes'?

[Eisenfavl]

1. I by no means am trying to say that all optimization is cheating. I'm fine with all good, normal optimization. Now what I define as ''optimization cheating'' is where people take things too far, and either bend the rules or out right cheat. Finding a single line in a book that says ''when the wizard rests on the bed they regain all there spells for the day as if they had rested a full 8 hours'' and then having a wizard character cast 40 spells, lay on the bed, cast 40 spells, then lay on the bed and so on....is simply cheating...even if that is what is written on the page.

2. I'm mostly fine with prestige classes, but don't like the cheating that can be done here as well.

3.Well, we are looking for a 'normalish wizard' as said you can go off the deep end an do all sorts of stuff, but a normal character can't live like that.

4.Well, I want to stick to mundane before magical. To prove that can be done. That is why it needs to be a normal world with normal lives, and not a crazy hermit super buffed and optimized wizard living in a tower 24/7 in an extra-dimensional space as a dire tortoise.

What restriction would you want for the 'foes'?
1. Well, you can't actually do that by RAW, so it's invalid a an action and an example.
2. Similarly, I have no reason to 'cheat' with prestige classes when I can simply get what I want by RAW.
3. But a normal character will have gratuitous persisted buffs and similar constant enhancements. And I say normal based off of the fact that this is the sort of character which I DO play in games where I am making a tier 1 caster.
4. But any wizard with a high intelligence score (so, really, any wizard at all) WILL be constantly buffed and optimise themselves highly. Maybe not living in a tower 24/7, but the constant buffs have no good reason not to exist.

[bloodtide]

This is a remarkably hostile way to tone your post... Could you maybe be a bit less aggressive?

Do I really sound that aggressive and hostile?




Why don't we start by talking about which social and economic activities a Wizard, at level 10, would need to do, or might feel a reason to do? And what his job is

An adventuring wizard, But not so much one that is on an adventure at the moment, one more that is enjoying downtime is what I was thinking. What were you thinking?



And how much wealth by level he has, and whether he can extend that by crafting, and if he expects to be the target of assassination in general, if not in particular?

Well, as said by others we have to go by the rules, so he can only have normal wealth for his level.

Crafting is tricky as the wizard does not have infinite time (or money or xp) as most cheating optimizers do with their builds(''my wizard crafts 25 super coll uber items that take 750 days each, er but he is still a super cool 20 years old dude'').

And the wizard is expected to plan more 'in general' for trouble, and not know that he has some sort of mark on his head.

[Menteith]

*Obviously only Wizards D&D stuff. Standard WBL.


That's fine with me.


*Keep the wizard normal, as this is an example of the average wizard can be captured. So while you can make a build with an exotic prestige class(often with the no role-playing cheat) or a rare feat or spell or such, we want more 'just a wizard', not an optimized wizard nightmare cheat of a character.

Stop using the word "cheat" to describe entirely legal things. I'd also highly recommend you clarify exactly what you mean here - do you want to stick to Wizard 10 (which is doable), are you allowing alternate class features, Domain Wizards, racial substitution levels; I'd like you to explain this requirement a bit more.



*We are also talking about a normal character in a normal world. So this character is active for 16 hours a day and sleeps for 8. They need to eat and rest and otherwise do all the normal things people do. Making a wizard that lives 24/7 in a magical fortress is pointless.

There are a host of races that don't sleep: Warforged and Elves come to mind. Are you going to give a racial restriction here? By definition, a person who can create matter from nothing, fly, and destroy cities isn't a "normal person", and it's pretty easy to avoid eating/sleeping, even as a Human. If you want to force a behavior on the Wizard, please codify it.



*Note that with above we are talking about a wizard character that is awake and active a full 16 hours a day. And at the start, they have no idea they are being hunted. So we are not talking about a 'fight scene' where the wizard has cast and done a dozen things to protect themselves right before an attack. For right now we are looking for what a wizard can do, in general, on a day to day basis. We are not looking for ''how would a wizard avoid a trap he knowing walked into''.

That's fine. Wizard will only have hours/level and days/level spells active, and will not have any affects active that would be out of the ordinary.



*We are assuming a social wizard, not a hermit. So anything that would not be socially acceptable in 'normal society' is out.

What setting, which society, and how in the hell are you defining "socially acceptable"? Depending on where you are, literally everything can be "socially acceptable". Again, give me an actual idea about what you mean here, please.



*No Infinite Loops or other such rubbish. We want a real wizard character.
*The character can't 'just' be an escape artist. While you can make this character and that is all fine and good, it does not really prove the point that you can capture the average wizard. The character needs to be a typical adventuring type wizard.

That's fine.



So can anyone make this wizard?

I think so, but I'd like more clarification on a number of points before I get started. Don't use words like "typical" or "normal", since I'm not a mind reader, and those word are meaningless in this kind of discussion. Give me exact requirements with regard to flavor, please.

[Eisenfavl]

Crafting is tricky as the wizard does not have infinite time (or money or xp) as most cheating optimizers do with their builds(''my wizard crafts 25 super coll uber items that take 750 days each, er but he is still a super cool 20 years old dude'').
I'd just like to point out that any level 10 wizard worth their salt does have infinite time in the form of a personal timeless traited infinite-rounds-to-one temporally ratio'd demiplane.
But lets not go there.

[Hirax]

Do I really sound that aggressive and hostile?



Those aren't words I'd use, but after reading the OP I don't feel like you've created a particularly compelling setting.

[bloodtide]

3. But a normal character will have gratuitous persisted buffs and similar constant enhancements. And I say normal based off of the fact that this is the sort of character which I DO play in games where I am making a tier 1 caster.
4. But any wizard with a high intelligence score (so, really, any wizard at all) WILL be constantly buffed and optimise themselves highly. Maybe not living in a tower 24/7, but the constant buffs have no good reason not to exist.

I'd want a normally protected character. That's the whole point. But not just a build where the character has taken every single feat, class, spell, item and whatever to be the perfect escape artist. That is not a real character and we all know that can be done. We want a wizard who is protected, but can also function as part of a adventure(so he does not have all escape spells and no spells of any other type, for example).

[Eisenfavl]

I'd want a normally protected character. That's the whole point. But not just a build where the character has taken every single feat, class, spell, item and whatever to be the perfect escape artist. That is not a real character and we all know that can be done. We want a wizard who is protected, but can also function as part of a adventure(so he does not have all escape spells and no spells of any other type, for example).
Well, the best spells for escaping are the ones which kill your enemies, so I hardly see that as a problem.

What restrictions will you be putting on yourself? I say no epic characters or spells or spell equivalents above 4th level expect for corner cases from other systems (say, warlocks replicating a level 6 spell is fine, but no psionics).

[Malachei]

I think you should get a (preferably non-biased) DM to adjudicate this and then let him run you through an actual scenario.

[Gavinfoxx]

What are some plausible assassination or capturing methods that would be used in an urban area?

[Malachei]

Poisoning, for instance.

[Eisenfavl]

Poisoning, for instance.
But that effects his physiology, which doesn't work due to the persisted stone body.

[Malachei]

But that effects his physiology, which doesn't work due to the persisted stone body.

I didn't say it would work. I answered the question.

[Eisenfavl]

I didn't say it would work. I answered the question.
Though this is needlessly pedantic, the question was plausible. All (currently) living level ten wizards persist stone body every morning, so the technique is akin to using a tindertwig on a rock to make a fire to cook food with: the rock might have sparks fall on it, but it isn't a plausible way to make a cooking fire.

[Malachei]

Though this is needlessly pedantic, the question was plausible. All (currently) living level ten wizards persist stone body every morning, so the technique is akin to using a tindertwig on a rock to make a fire to cook food with: the rock might have sparks fall on it, but it isn't a plausible way to make a cooking fire.

I find that a good example for the difference in your positions:

You understand plausible as the question of "whether it works to capture my wizard".

The OP probably would probably say plausible means "no shenanigans".

I understood What are some plausible assassination or capturing methods that would be used in an urban area? as "what are, in general, typical assassination methods used in an urban setting?"

But perhaps Gavinfoxx can clarifiy what he meant.

[Gavinfoxx]

Plausible for enemies to use against a wizard, ie, how might he be targeted, by what sorts of forces?

[Malachei]

Thanks Gavinfoxx. I understood that in a different way.


But that effects his physiology, which doesn't work due to the persisted stone body.

I know there are several ways, but just because I'm curious, what, in your example, is the 10th level wizards' method to persist stone body?

[Eisenfavl]

I know there are several ways, but just because I'm curious, what, in your example, is the 10th level wizards' method to persist stone body?
Hathran for spontaneity + elven domain generalist + versatile spellcasting for ninths, 8 levels incantatrix for persist.

[Gavinfoxx]

You can become an incantatrix at level 3 and a hathran at level 2??? *confused*

[Eisenfavl]

You can become an incantatrix at level 3 and a hathran at level 2??? *confused*
Retraining into incantatrix levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

How do you bypass the 'can only retrain into options you could have chosen at the time' clause?

[Malachei]

Retraining into incantatrix levels.

So you are using setting-specific material. The OP could then argue that your strategy is only working on the Forgotten Realms.

[Eisenfavl]

So you are using setting-specific material. The OP could then argue that your strategy is only working on the Forgotten Realms.
Incantatrix is specific to Faerun, it is just in a Faerun book.
Hathran uses Faerun in its class features, but I can get around this with a demiplane.

Edit:

How do you bypass the 'can only retrain into options you could have chosen at the time' clause?
Sorry I made that unclear: I'm using dusk giant to get the skills early, with the starting build set up to function with the ethergaunt shuffle to do this, then retraining out the feats.

[Malachei]

Incantatrix is specific to Faerun, it is just in a Faerun book.
Hathran uses Faerun in its class features, but I can get around this with a demiplane.

Of course it is specific to Faerun. Faerun references are throughout its RAW text. It is even in the first sentence.

If you include Incantatrix in a non-Faerun game, you can, but it is a houserule.

[Eisenfavl]

Of course it is specific to Faerun. Faerun references are throughout its RAW text. It is even in the first sentence.

If you include Incantatrix in a non-Faerun game, you can, but it is a houserule.
Wrong.

The requirements do not reference Faerun, the flavour text does. None of the class features reference it either.
As such, the setting being Faerun only matters to my Hathran, who can get around it anyway.

[Malachei]

Wrong.

The requirements do not reference Faerun, the flavour text does. None of the class features reference it either.
As such, the setting being Faerun only matters to my Hathran, who can get around it anyway.

Wrong.

RAW is the rules as written, table AND text, and full text at that.

Everything else is just cherry-picking.

[Eisenfavl]

Wrong.

RAW is the rules as written, table AND text, and full text at that.

Everything else is just cherry-picking.
Blatantly incorrect.
What do I need to qualify for to get into the class? The requirements.
What do I get from the class? Class features, Class skills, Hit Dice, BAB, and saves.
Fluff doesn't come into it.

[Malachei]

Blatantly incorrect.
What do I need to qualify for to get into the class? The requirements.
What do I get from the class? Class features, Class skills, Hit Dice, BAB, and saves.
Fluff doesn't come into it.

I'm I have to repeat this is wrong. RAW is the full rules text. It is cherry-picking to exclude text. Where's your Incantatrix printed in?

For the sake of the OP's challenge, I'd really suggest getting a DM, if you want this to make sense. Otherwise, this thread will end like so many before: You exchange another dozen or so posts to establish the ground rules, and then the thread dies off.

I find it interesting you asked the OP for limitations, and now vigorously fight for your Incantatrix. The Prestige Class is often an example for particularly over-powered arcane spellcasters, and many (not me) ban them in their games. I've played arcane casters as long as I can remember playing the game, and I love playing them, but I don't think the cherry-picking approach will get us anywhere, except backing the prejudice that wizards rely on cheesy stuff.

Can you protect your wizard without Incantatrix? Without Persistent Spell? With just core, perhaps?

Also, what about Gavinfoxx's question regarding the retraining limits?

[Eisenfavl]

I answered Gavin 's question on the previous page.

Outside of core, wizards are unstoppable bar TO or other casters, though they ARE the second best base class next to artificers.
Inside of core, Wizards either do TO or drop down to respectably powerful. You actually have to put effort in to achieve invulnerability within core.

Without incantatrix, I'd have to do through hoops to make my wizard the divine equivalent and use divine metamagic instead to get persist.
Without persist, I'd extend hour/level spells and boost my Clvl.

[Malachei]

I answered Gavin 's question on the previous page.

Outside of core, wizards are unstoppable bar TO or other casters, though they ARE the second best base class next to artificers.
Inside of core, Wizards either do TO or drop down to respectably powerful. You actually have to put effort in to achieve invulnerability within core.

Without incantatrix, I'd have to do through hoops to make my wizard the divine equivalent and use divine metamagic instead to get persist.
Without persist, I'd extend hour/level spells and boost my Clvl.

Good. Let us assume we want to see a wizard, not a wizard duplicating a cleric.

Then go ahead, extend and boost CL.

I think that is a fair basis for your challenge. I'd say the wizard wins most of the time, but not all of the time. Whether core or not, a wizard is only unstoppable if played well.

We could even make this a regular thing, to get some statistical coverage. One problem is the simulation: The attacker will rely on trying to avoid the 15-minute adventuring day, which is hard to adjudicate. So can't go into an arena and fight it out (and then you could just as easily roll initiative in this thread and just say the higher roll wins). You'll need a basic setting (city), and both parties secretly inform the DM what they are doing, much like in a play-by-post, but with PMs. In such a situation, a stealth-based attacker (dark creature Swordsage) with a massive hide might have a chance.

EDIT: I missed your edit regarding Gavinfoxx's question. You're saying:


Sorry I made that unclear: I'm using dusk giant to get the skills early, with the starting build set up to function with the ethergaunt shuffle to do this, then retraining out the feats.

Can you present that in more detail, please.

[Eisenfavl]

But that isn't a fair basis for the challenge. You are literally saying "Oh, the best choices a wizard can make? You can't do those."
Furthermore, the competition was never core. And because it isn't core, the wizard always wins initiative AND has celerity.

Edit:
Dusk Giant Cheese? I can give you a link. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7061.20;wap2)
(You don't need to be a kobold, that is just to get epic spells)

You DO know what the ethergaunt shuffle is, right?

[Malachei]

But that isn't a fair basis for the challenge. You are literally saying "Oh, the best choices a wizard can make? You can't do those."
Furthermore, the competition was never core. And because it isn't core, the wizard always wins initiative AND has celerity.

So you're a wizard saying "The world isn't fair because I can't use my favourite PrC and persistent spells?"

Wow, wizards just became a lot less scary.

[Eisenfavl]

So you're a wizard saying "The world isn't fair because I can't use my favourite PrC and persistent spells?"

Wow, wizards just became a lot less scary.
No, I am saying that if you have me explain why wizards are godlike, and then say "You can't use all of the things you just said", then no, it isn't a fair comparison.
By definition, if you ignore RAW, like you have in your posts about 'cherry picking', which isn't happening at all, and arbitrarily ban 90% of the reasons why a viewpoint exists, then my only resort is to not enter an obviously biased competition, or play to the utmost extreme. I mean, untouchable wizards isn't a core perspective. Core wizards are vain, godlike entities but are still utterly vulnerable. Non-core wizards aren't. I already restricted myself to not just scry-and-die -ing from my demiplane. I already follow the rules of the challenge. I already avoid TO.
If you are saying "No, coming up with a strategy to get past something doesn't work because I ban everything in that strategy", which you just did, then I have no reason to follow the rules of the contest either.
Need I remind you that core-pun was a wizard?

Furthermore, what you said is downright wrong. LOOK at the post you quoted. I explicitly said celerity and initiative boosters, which unless you come up with counter to other than 'I ban it', means I can escape from any feasible situation.
IF you ban all the best spells, feats, and PRC's, and say they fire a wierdstone out of a catapult, AND ambush you with TOB classes, then yes, you will lose. But that situation doesn't follow the challenge, or RAW

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm I have to repeat this is wrong. RAW is the full rules text. It is cherry-picking to exclude text. Where's your Incantatrix printed in?

I'll agree with you that "RAW is the full rules text." Flavor text is not rules text, and the title of a book has nothing to do with any rules. The Red Wizard is in the Core DMG, but that doesn't mean it's not setting-specific. Nearly every monster in MM3 has flavor text associated with both the Forgotten Realms and Eberron, but that doesn't mean those monsters are exclusive to those settings.

Looking over the flavor text for Incantatrix, it only outlines how characters of that class interact within the Forgotten Realms, not that they're exclusive to that setting. This is a matter of context, it's only because this class happens to appear in a FR book that its flavor text describes it within the context of that setting. For example, the Dweomerkeeper prestige class in Faiths and Pantheons was specific to Mystra, a deity of Faerun. When they updated the Dweomerkeeper and put it in the Complete Divine web enhancement, it was published within the context of a setting-neutral splatbook, so they removed its FR-specific flavor text and even mechanics. Does this mean that it's no longer usable in a Forgotten Realms game, because it's had Mystra replaced by core deities in its flavor text?

There is absolutely no RAW reason to prohibit a non-FR character from taking levels of Incantatrix. The Forgotten Realms is associated with Incantatrix just like Kobolds are associated with traps, but that doesn't make trapmaking exclusive to Kobolds. The Book of Vile Darkness originally had rules for making poisons, but that didn't exclude non-evil characters from doing it. The Draconomicon has quite a few new feats, spells, and magic items which are beneficial to dragons, but that doesn't mean non-dragons cannot also benefit from them.

[Aharon]

@Scottzar
Well, in the spirit of the challenge, perhaps you should limit yourself to methods that aren't labeled cheese even by their creators. It may be accepted in your game, but every group has different definitions of High Op, and stuff like that won't fly even in some games that are labeled by the participants as High Op.
Perhaps if we can get the OP to curb his hostility down, he writes a list of what is and isn't allowed.
One possible starting point might be the test of spite ruleset or, to make things really interesting, Core.

@Biffoniacus
I respect your rules knowledge greatly, which is the reason for a tangential question:
What if the section normally reserved for fluff contains information that is rules relevant? I recently had a discussion with Emperor_Tippy about Aleaxes. In the part normally reserved to fluff, it is pointed out that they don't exist prior to their creation by gods. How would you handle that kind of thing?

[Emperor Tippy]

That isn't rules text.

And let's see, making a wizard that can't be captured.

Step 1: Gate in something with the Wish SLA using a scroll of Gate or the like.
Step 2: Wish up a Scroll of Ice Assassin of any deity with the Alter Reality SDA.
Step 3: Use your Ice Assassin scroll.
Step 5: Have your IDA use Alter Reality to create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax Elan Psion (Telepath) with True Mind Switch and maxed physical stats.
Step 6: Have your IDA order it's Ice Assassin to True Mindswitch with you.
Step 7: Have your Ice Assassin use SDA to fake a Wish and give you scrolls of Shapechange, Foresight, and every other remotely useful personal range buff in the game.
Step 8: Use your Shapechange scroll and have your IAD use Alter Reality to make it permanent.
Step 9: Shapechange into a Lilitu so that you can use it's Item Use ability and not have to worry about making any more UMD checks.
Step 10: Use all the other scrolls made for you and have them made permant by your IDA.
Step 11: Have your IDA use Alter Reality to cast every non personal range spell in the game with a duration greater than instantaneous that is remotely useful or helpful.
Step 12: Throw a party because you have won D&D.

Doable well before level 10.

[Malachei]

I'll agree with you that "RAW is the full rules text." Flavor text is not rules text, and the title of a book has nothing to do with any rules.

So the The Constitution of the United States applies in all other countries?

[Aharon]

@Tippy
Yeah, I know your opinion on the matter already, thank you. I was interested in the perspective of other board members. But if you wish to discuss this with me further, please provide a section of the D&D-Handbooks that clearly provides a definition of what is and isn't rules-text. Your assertion that a section clearly defining how a type of creature is created isn't rules text seems quite bold to me.

[Malachei]

That isn't rules text.y

That is a personal opinion.


(...) Ice Assassin (...)

Approach: Winning the game, even at the cost of the game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So the The Constitution of the United States applies in all other countries?

I guess the next time you're making NPCs, you'd better not use anything exclusive to the Player's Handbook.

[Malachei]

No kidding?

Seriously: What is RAW, if not the rules book?

In a book that is titled "A Players Guide to Faerun", which in its introduction explains its content is specific to Faerun, and which describes its material, including the Incantatrix-PrC as Faerun-specific, how can someone argue the material is not Faerun-specific?

Of course it is a houserule to include a Faerun-specific class in, let's say, a Greyhawk game. I do this, yes, but at least I acknowledge that I houserule it in.

[bloodtide]

In a book that is titled "A Players Guide to Faerun", which in its introduction explains its content is specific to Faerun, and which describes its material, including the Incantatrix-PrC as Faerun-specific, how can someone argue the material is not Faerun-specific?

Way back in the first post I said any Wizard book. So all this does not matter for Capture the Wizard.


What restrictions will you be putting on yourself? I say no epic characters or spells or spell equivalents above 4th level expect for corner cases from other systems (say, warlocks replicating a level 6 spell is fine, but no psionics).

Obviously no Epic stuff for the foes. But why do you want only 4th level spells for the foes? The whole point of D&D is that it must be a challenge, and going by the rules that is things of your level (10) and higher. A standard encounter is an encounter of things equal to your level. And sense both of us are using 'more powerful then normal' things, even though we are at level 10/CR 10, we are more at 13-15, by the book.(as any optimized character, even more so a good build is way more powerful then a standard character).

So I'll stick to the level 10/CR 10 ish range or a bit over.

[Brock Samson]

Back to the original post:

I'm not going to create the entire wizard, but let's use something that's not overpowered, the Heart of X line, which if you cast all 4, they last hours/level, if you can manage to bump your CL by 2, then extend them all via easily affordable metamagic rods, then you can have them all up 24/7, with a moderate investment into your spell slots.

What this does: You're now immune to crits/sneak attacks/stunning - very helpful in staying alive. You can activate Freedom of Movement as a swift action, even AFTER you've been grappled/whatnot. You can activate Stoneskin as a swift action, an ok defense once that assassin has shown himself to you but not killed you due to being unable to crit. And you've got an extra 24 temp hit points, which is just icing.

You could also have a Silent Spell Dimension Door, so you can escape some other nasty things.

And then Polymorph in your back pocket for the versatility it can do.

Yes, there's plenty of ways to off you still, but I've just made a moderately hard-to-kill (before he can get away and knows he's being hunted) Wizard with or without any prestige classes and with what I highly doubt anyone would regard as a lot of optimization.

And yes, if a wizard COULD have the Heart of X spells up 24/7, he certainly would, because he's powerful, and he knows that someone could try to come kill/capture him, so it makes sense to invest in moderate protection that you only have to spend 1 hour a day prepping. Besides, you don't want your wizard skills getting rusty.

[bloodtide]

I'm not going to create the entire wizard, but let's use something that's not overpowered, the Heart of X line, which if you cast all 4, they last hours/level, if you can manage to bump your CL by 2, then extend them all via easily affordable metamagic rods, then you can have them all up 24/7, with a moderate investment into your spell slots.

That's a good start. So just for that the wizard needs to cast a 2nd, 3rd, 4tg, and 5th level spell limiting the spells he can use the rest of the day.

[QUOTE=Brock Samson;13086117]
You could also have a Silent Spell Dimension Door, so you can escape some other nasty things.

And another 5th level slot here. So that is both of the two 5th level spell slots the wizard has for the day. (and even with the build cheat and the headman the wizard only get one more 5th level spell, plus one more from specialization)

And what is nice about the Heart spells is that they can be worn down. Attack the wizard at 8am and force him to activate the powers and a couple rounds later the spells are gone. Then you can attack the wizard from 9am until 11 pm and he would no longer have the spells.

But it's a good start for a wizard defense.

But the real trick is the wizard still playable? Just to do the Heart spells cost four spell slots and one magic item, plus the slots for dim door. Of note, the wizard has already used up two 5th level spell slots, out of the possible four. And one feat for the dim door.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thought as much...

"Make a wizard... but anything which might let you escape my cunning, nefarious, and completely original idea (which I swiped from someone on the internet) is CLEARLY cheating and needs to die in a fire."

Dude, you flat out asked for someone to break the game using the wizard. Then you complain when someone does.

Oddly enough, you can still be social and fill all prerequisites you have mentioned as a Dire Tortoise. Use an illusion to appear normal, and you can interact with anyone you so choose. Picking up things, etc, can be done with an Unseen Servant, assuming you don't want to just use the cantrip Mage Hand. Or, to get even more amusing, Persist Invisibility (using Incantatrix) then create a Major Image for everyone to interact with. There's plenty of ways to bypass the concentration, or let something else concentrate on it for you, since Persistent Image is a 5th level spell.

[bloodtide]

Thought as much...

"Make a wizard... but anything which might let you escape my cunning, nefarious, and completely original idea (which I swiped from someone on the internet) is CLEARLY cheating and needs to die in a fire."

WHAT? Your idea was fine. I never said your idea was cheating.



Dude, you flat out asked for someone to break the game using the wizard. Then you complain when someone does.

No, that is not what I asked. I asked if someone could make a 'normal playable adventuring wizard' that could avoid being caught.



Oddly enough, you can still be social and fill all prerequisites you have mentioned as a Dire Tortoise. Use an illusion to appear normal, and you can interact with anyone you so choose. Picking up things, etc, can be done with an Unseen Servant, assuming you don't want to just use the cantrip Mage Hand. Or, to get even more amusing, Persist Invisibility (using Incantatrix) then create a Major Image for everyone to interact with. There's plenty of ways to bypass the concentration, or let something else concentrate on it for you, since Persistent Image is a 5th level spell.

Oh no, not the Dire Tortoise LOL. And anyway, this goes into broken and cheating game territory, as no normal wizard would do that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And what is nice about the Heart spells is that they can be worn down. Attack the wizard at 8am and force him to activate the powers and a couple rounds later the spells are gone. Then you can attack the wizard from 9am until 11 pm and he would no longer have the spells.

You attack that wizard at 8am, and he's probably going to retreat into a Rope Trick from 9am to 11pm. I won't even get into how safe he is while inside the space provided by Rope Trick, but it's going to be sufficient to allow him to prepare his spells, which can include Teleport.

As for the playability of that spell setup, it looks fairly standard for what he would have prepared on a day that he's not doing any adventuring. A given character isn't out dungeon crawling 365 days a year, and he would be much easier to find and capture when he's not traveling around.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

WHAT? Your idea was fine. I never said your idea was cheating.Really?


No, that is not what I asked. I asked if someone could make a 'normal playable adventuring wizard' that could avoid being caught. Which I did.


Oh no, not the Dire Tortoise LOL. And anyway, this goes into broken and cheating game territory, as no normal wizard would do that.Case in point.

[Eisenfavl]

Obviously no Epic stuff for the foes. But why do you want only 4th level spells for the foes? The whole point of D&D is that it must be a challenge, and going by the rules that is things of your level (10) and higher. A standard encounter is an encounter of things equal to your level. And sense both of us are using 'more powerful then normal' things, even though we are at level 10/CR 10, we are more at 13-15, by the book.(as any optimized character, even more so a good build is way more powerful then a standard character).

So I'll stick to the level 10/CR 10 ish range or a bit over.
I say no level 5 or higher spells because that is what makes the level ten wizard different from the things he is fighting. You completely invalidate the challenge if you basically say "I use the same wizard a you, times fifty".

Also, every normal wizard would persist a polymorph into a dire tortoise. That's RAW, so it isn't cheating, and you say 'broken', but that is the essence of the issue: wizards are broken, and this is the basis from which we are creating our characters.

[MrRigger]

I would, and have, used the Dire Tortoise ability to ensure I get a surprise round. I've also Shapechanged into a Zodar to get a free Wish. I haven't set up Wish farms, but a free Wish is definitely something a normal, everyday adventuring Wizard would look into doing. It's Wish. Even sticking purely to published uses, it's a great spell.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that a Wizard would be any easier to capture during downtime than during a dungeon crawl. Personally, and yes, I have done this in-game, so I know it's playable, I'm more paranoid about defense during downtime. Since I'm not worrying about having Battlefield Control or Save or Dies prepared to deal with encounters, those spell slots go into personal defense spells. Just because you aren't adventuring doesn't mean your Wizard starts preparing useless, situational spells. I'm more likely to have escape/defense spells prepared during downtime, because I'm also more likely to find myself in a dangerous situation without the support of the party.

MrRigger

[Menteith]

Oh no, not the Dire Tortoise LOL. And anyway, this goes into broken and cheating game territory, as no normal wizard would do that.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Cheating would be acting in a way outside of the written rules of the game. Using a Dire Tortoise's form is a commonly accepted practice for highly powered games - and it's certainly on the table for a TO exercise, like this. You either need to define "normal", with regard to both setting, race, and society, or you need to stop insisting people conform to it. Give me a list of what you consider normal, why you think that it's reasonable that EVERYONE conforms to your ideal, and precisely how a Persisted Polymorph violates being "normal" for you.

[Zonugal]

I am currently constructing a sample mage for this type of exercise (and others down the road). Cornelius Phire, lecturer at Morgrave University and relic thief abound the world.

I'm hoping to have a complete build designed for him as well as his common routine and some sample pictures of his main places of occupancy.

[Averis Vol]

i'm no optimizer but i think a wizard is just as easily catch able as any other class while druid, artificer, cleric, sorcerer and a number of other classes still exist because there's always gonna be someone who knows the same tricks as you and can just as easily counter them, i see this all as a moot argument because someone else is just going to pull out another trick.

[bloodtide]

I say no level 5 or higher spells because that is what makes the level ten wizard different from the things he is fighting. You completely invalidate the challenge if you basically say "I use the same wizard a you, times fifty".

Typically, the foes are more in number, as that is kinda the point. But you can't cut out 5th level stuff for the foes, as that makes them too weak and there are lots of good 5th level spells.



Also, every normal wizard would persist a polymorph into a dire tortoise. That's RAW, so it isn't cheating, and you say 'broken', but that is the essence of the issue: wizards are broken, and this is the basis from which we are creating our characters.

Ok, here is the way I see it. A person can read the rules any way they want too. After all the just is just a couple words on a page and it's not written in legalese. So when a single line says the words 'one action' you can make that be anything you want too. Is that one action a standard action, a move action or what...the 'rule' does not say.

And then we get to the Big Problem. They way 'everyone' reads the Dire Tortoise just makes them too good and powerful, and simply beyond stupid. And it's amazing that people can't or don't want to see that...I just don't get the freaky 'jumping on the table and saying I'm better then you'' stuff. It's like some people want a medal as the read through all the books and found one tiny thing they can use to be awesome.

And the even Bigger Problem. Ok, lets say a DM was to allow the stupid broken dire tortoise cheat. Ok, so on Day One of the world it can be done....what would happen by day 1,000 or so.....every single living creature in the whole multiverse would be a dire tortoise. And that is just the dumbest thing ever.

[bloodtide]

{{scrubbed}}

[sparkyinbozo]

{Scrubbed}

Translation: I wanted to issue a challenge to you, but after doing so will irrationally tie your hands such that I am guaranteed to be proven the victor, as I've convinced myself that I am.

From what I read, the point of the challenge was to see how powerful an already-broken class can be. However, with all of these limitations, one might as well have asked to capture the wizard "but you can only have Ranger class levels."

Would a mod please lock this thread?

[bloodtide]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Menteith]

Lets see...cheating...doing something to automatically win the game. Yup, sounds like cheating to me.

But it doesn't automatically win the game. It gives a single standard action, and prevents surprise. This gives additional options to the Wizard, but doesn't "win" D&D (how does one win at D&D anyway?)


How about finding a single stupid animal with a simple physical ability and then try to say that can be used for spellcasting.

And if we were playing in a 'real' game....my Dire Tortoise assassin would just go first anyway...as they are attacking first.

That's a valid tactic. But using the Dire Tortoise's form for its physical abilities is no different that using an Eagle's form to fly or a Shark's form to swim - it's just a physical characteristic, in this case one that boosts one's reflexes.


And what is with 'commonly accepted', that means nothing.....everyone cheats, but that does not make it right.

This is also true. However, if you're going to go against common parameters of TO, especially if you're going against RAW, then you need to specify them. Otherwise, typical assumptions will be made - and those assumptions are generally going to be exclusively RAW.



Guess in the end it does not matter, as it's obvious that anyone who is on this board is not a normal player of D&D and is some sort of Freakish inhuman monster. I guess all the optimizing cheaters here were the poor kids that like lost at musical chairs and had to go cry to the schools to get 'participation trophies'.

There isn't anything that could be called a "normal" player, as every group is gong to play differently. Some prefer to have gritty, low magic campaigns, and some play in Tippyverse, but there isn't a normal way of playing the game, nor is there a right or wrong way. For example, the build I was working on for this challenge was a Dragonborn of Bahamut Warforged, and I just wanted specifications on how you wanted me to run my character for the purposes of the exercise. Additionally, your second sentence is insulting, trollish, and generally baffling. I'd appreciate it if you could walk me through how you arrived at that conclusion, since the massive leaps in (il)logic are hard for me to process.


This is Bloodtide, signing off, and wondering why I even bothered to come to such a dumb place Filled with mother ****ing *******s! I hope that everyone of you ****ing cheating optimizers choke and die on a d20!

Alright, bye. I'm sad that you're completely unable to communicate with others who hold a difference of opinion. I hope that you're able to get over yourself eventually, and maybe we can actually complete this challenge when you do. Please don't come back until you've learned how to hold a conversation.

[Menteith]

Edit - Double Post

[Othesemo]

-snip two consecutive angry rants-

The density of Ad Hominems here is fairly impressive. In the future, I suggest a thirty minute grace period before posting- it helps me a lot when I'm particularly upset and another anonymous person and don't want to embarrass myself later. But I digress...

Let's look at how you apparently define cheating- 'doing something to automatically win the game.' I object to this definition for two main reasons- firstly, D&D cannot be 'won' in any sense (for obvious reasons). Secondly, even if it were, than what you call cheating would be what I would call 'intelligence.' For example, whenever I play Monopoly, I purchase the orange properties. Why? Because my opponents are statistically more likely to land there than anywhere else. When I play a game- baseball, ping-pong, whatever, I play to win. That's normal, I think.

Essentially, I posit that if it is possible to win the game, then winning the game is likely the goal of many of the people playing. There may be a few people who play chess impulsively just for the social aspect (very few). And I respect their decision. However, if one of these people started accusing Gary Kasparov of 'cheating,' I'd object.'

Worse, if one of these people were to offer a chess scenario to Kasparov, and then insult him loudly when he demonstrated the mate-in-9 (or similarly impressive way of winning the situation), I'd find my opinion of the challenger plummeting with a rapidity usually reserved for the moment right after you invest in the stock market.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

If you want what you seem to consider a 'normal wizard,' you should ask a normal player of D&D- the sort of person who thinks that fireball is the best spell ever and thinks that metamagic is a waste of a feat. If you ask for a wizard from a collection of devoted and talented optimizers, you're going to be getting the best damn wizard for the job.

And seriously, dude. If you're that angry, don't post. You will say something that you'll regret later. And probably won't endear yourself to your fellow forumites.

[Forrestfire]

With all due respect, I think the problem is that the definitions of a "normal game" are too variable. For instance, for me a normal game would be to play without obvious cheese on my own character, but also pointing newer players towards it to up their power level to match the amount of power I get just from being skilled at the game.

I am currently DMing a game with 3 new players and a very competent optimizer. I showed the newer players what the better options were, and also enforced some house rules to limit the better optimizer (and had an agreement that anything he wants to try on his character can and will be accessed by enemies).

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

In my type of normal game, my wizard would definitely be caught, as I don't abuse polymorph and rope trick. However, I would definitely put up a good fight, probably destroying the majority of my attackers, at least until I ran out of spell slots. In any case, my wizard would eventually be run down, but the time it takes would depend on the amount of optimization given to the enemies.

[bloodtide]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Menteith]

My challage was just to catch a wizard in a NORMAL GAME. A nice bit of fun where we could see what happens.

Saddly, everyone on this site is ****** **** *** beyond *****. I'm just glad I know none of you on real life...

Bloodtide, something you seem to have trouble grasping is that what you consider a normal game isn't going to be the same as another player. The game supports play from gritty low magic to Tippyverse and beyond, and that's part of what's wonderful about it. Just because you enjoy playing the game your own way doesn't make it any better or worse than how another player does it. When I was asking for what you considered a "normal" game, I wasn't trying to be difficult, or to bother you, it's because I honestly don't know what you would consider normal, since the game supports so many interpretations.

Your attitude has always been one of superiority, as if your interpretation is the only correct one. I am more than willing to hear you out on all of these issues - I certainly have made mistakes about the game before. I understand where you're coming from, having banned many of the things you take issue with myself while DMing. However, unless you're spelling out what you are/are not allowing for the purposes of a challenge, everyone is going to assume that the default rules are in play. And if you don't like the default rules, then you have to specify how.

You started this thread to see if a Wizard could be statted up that could evade capture without resorting to extreme cheese. I honestly don't know why you're so angry about, well, everything. People are going to be different than you, and I dearly hope you find a way to deal with different people in a healthier way than death threats in the future.


Normal is easy, if your a normal person. As you can tell, most of the ''people'' on the board are normal. They would spend the day as a tortoise...as dumb as that sounds, just to win the stupid game. But no normal person would do that.

And it's not that optimizing is wrong...with when your a stupid young punk with no life and all you want to to is ruin everything for everyone else. It's a sign of immaturity, that they can't see how dumb things are and just say 'ok, won't do that'. But then again, most posters here are little kids, or just big babies.

Bloodtide, if I'm a flying demigod who can teleport thousands of miles, who does battle in hell itself and can destroy continents, we've passed beyond normal. I want to know how you're making the leap of logic regarding that age and attitude of the posters here. You're the only one who's started screaming profanities and refusing to work with anyone else. I have made a reasonable request for what you consider normal, and your response has been to wish that I choke to death and to call me at times, a "stupid young punk with no life" and a "big baby".

You are either unable or unwilling to understand me. I don't know how else to explain my position to you. You've shown contempt for the board's rules, the members of the board, and the official rules, and have demeaned anyone who disagrees with you without presenting any reason for doing so. I'm going to step away for a bit and make some dinner. I don't know why I'm even spending time typing this out once again, but I hope that it helps you understand why your actions are out of line.

[bloodtide]

{{Scrubbed}}

[bloodtide]

{{scrubbed}}

[Forrestfire]

Well, my game has tons of houserules to stop all the stupid people. Me and my players have no problem laughing and throwing a person out of our game(very often physically) if they tried a stupid dire tortoise thing. There is really noting more satisfying then taking a copy of Sandstorm and smashing it across the face of one of the cheating optimimng idiots and hearing the sound of their nose break and watching them run home to their mommy

In that case, we have a differing opinion regarding what a "normal" game is.

However, if you do indeed physically assault your players because they want to make their characters better, I'd suggest you seek mental help. Or perhaps a lawyer. :smalleek:

I'm going to take my leave, because I fear that I may end up dragged into an argument or flame war and I'd rather not. Good day to you, sir.

[Menteith]

Well, my game has tons of houserules to stop all the stupid people. Me and my players have no problem laughing and throwing a person out of our game(very often physically) if they tried a stupid dire tortoise thing. There is really noting more satisfying then taking a copy of Sandstorm and smashing it across the face of one of the cheating optimimng idiots and hearing the sound of their nose break and watching them run home to their mommy

Bloodtide, if you want to include houserules, then tell me what they are, since I'm not a mind reader. If you enjoy physically assaulting someone over D&D, I would strongly recommend getting professional help. This is a game, and if you have attempted to break someone's nose over a game, then you should find a way to not get put in prison. I know that you're angry right now, and you're not posting anything remotely related to the truth, but in the odd chance it's true, think about it.

Either way, I hope that you're able to continue to enjoy the game in your own way, and can find healthier ways of dealing with other people.

EDIT -

Well, see, i think that all normal people can agree what normal is....and that is the big difference between me and you. You are not normal, so nothing can be normal for you. You'd say 'everyone can't agree', because you can't agree.

Et tu, Brute?

I'm saying that there's no such thing as normal because there isn't. The concept is meaningless with regard to D&D. I have played with eight groups in my life, and every one of them has had a different feel for how the game was run, and many included different houserules. If you're actually done, then I bid you farewell.

[Othesemo]

Well, my game has tons of houserules to stop all the stupid people. Me and my players have no problem laughing and throwing a person out of our game(very often physically) if they tried a stupid dire tortoise thing. There is really noting more satisfying then taking a copy of Sandstorm and smashing it across the face of one of the cheating optimimng idiots and hearing the sound of their nose break and watching them run home to their mommy

Two things you need to accept. Firstly, people are different, and enjoy different things. If you enjoy low-op games in which the tarrasque is a problem for a level 20 wizard, then play them. If I enjoy games in which my cleric has 10 stacking persisted buffs on his days off, I'll play them. Neither of us are right (or wrong), and neither of us (I would hope) merit so much profanity.

Secondly, threats of violence, while cathartic, are wildly inappropriate. Please keep them to yourself- I'm sure we'd all be grateful.

[Randomguy]

I tried to post here earlier, but the forum ate it.

A moderately optimized wizard would have these defences mostly from just spells:

His own demiplane (obtained by casting genesis from a scroll). Claim this is overpowered if you will, but having used a single scroll is nothing compared to stone body all day, which is the same as casting a level 12 spell every day.
Demiplane protected by Private Sanctum and Greater Alarm.
Lesser Planar binding --> Nightmare --> Astral projection. Also valid, since you can be out and about living your life with an awesome horse while your body is safe at home.
Astral projection means that death isn't much of a problem, that you can escape any situation with dispel magic and that you just wink out in an antimagic field, so enemies can't attack you.
Heart of Water: Great fun for swimming, great for escaping. Add the other heart of X spells if you don't like being sneak attacked.
Contingency: To dispel your astral projection if any enemy with a Githanki Silver Sword comes within X feet of you, X being the maximum range on a thrown sword.
Hoard Gullet: To keep your valuables safe.
"Dispel Magic" Tattoo: There are rules for tattooing spells on you, instead of writing them in your spellbook. This will be a good contingency: If someone catches your projection you can prepare it, dispel the projection and wake up safe in your demiplane. And that's if you don't have the spell prepared in the first place.
Retributive Spell (metamagic feat): Hit the guy that attacked you with vampiric touch or dominate person. This is optional. Alternatively:
Craft Contingent Item: For when one contingency isn't enough. Set this to bring you to safety if you're ever knocked unconscious.
Dimension door: If someone's got you tied up, dim door away and cast invisibility. Or, better, alter self, since it's harder to detect. Grab silent spell as well as this, so you can escape a gag or shackles.
Celerity: Good to cover yourself with a reselient sphere or wall of force against an attack, or strike first, or just run away.
Talismen of Undying Fortitude (item): For when you're up against poison, energy drain, ability damage, so on. This should give you enough time to escape or neutralize the threat.
Resistance, Superior: +3 to all saves for the day.
Abrupt Jaunt: A conjurer ACF. Optional, but helps avoid attacks.
Overland Flight: Travel in style!
Permanancied Arcane Sight.

Even a casual wizard would make use of detect thoughts every once in a while: Not only does it help you learn gossip, but it's great for finding out if someone's trying to kill you.

With all these defences, the only way someone would be able to actually capture you is by knocking you out in a single round while you're surprised or flatfooted, without using dispel magic (since that would dispel your astral projection and send you to safety). Higher op builds avoid this with foresight at lower than normal levels somehow or persistant polymorph into a dire turtle. Another flaw is the lack of permanant poison immunity, but again, this can be fixed with more optimization, or spending some cash to get a periapt of proof against poison. And that's if you didn't take craft contingent spell to send you to safety.
Oh, and the last downside is that since planeshift is a 7th level spell you can't leave your demiplane without a nightmare, so if you haven't got one it takes at least 10 minutes, meaning you can't escape quickly if you're attacked in your own demiplane. Fortunately, you can get back easily with dispel magic, and since you won't be handing out handing out forked rods tuned to your plane, an enemy would need to use gate to get there. And they'd need to actually know about the place, as well. Oh, and you've got the home field advantage.

[Menteith]

I had something similar, but I used a Dragonborn of Bahemut Warforged for my base Wizard. It gives you...

+4 Constitution, -2 Dex, -2 Wis, -2 Cha

- Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain.
- No need to eat, breath, or drink.
- +2 Dodge Bonus to AC against creatures of the dragon type. Immunity to Frightful Presence.
- No ACF as Dragonborn removes a Warforged's plating
- Choice of a Breath Weapon, (Ex) Wings that you can use as much as you want (due to fatigue immunity), or 120 ft Darkvision + triple Lowlight Vision.

[Othesemo]

It would appear that the OP has been banned, so I don't see much point in this thread's continued existence.

[opticalshadow]

And the even Bigger Problem. Ok, lets say a DM was to allow the stupid broken dire tortoise cheat. Ok, so on Day One of the world it can be done....what would happen by day 1,000 or so.....every single living creature in the whole multiverse would be a dire tortoise. And that is just the dumbest thing ever.

actually, that would moot the spell entirely. if everyone were dire toutises then it wouldnt make anyone powerful, wed all be equals, it woudl be like playing a game where people were all humans, equal in statistical values and only our chosen professions matter. which returns us to square one.

also it seems relitivly easy to finish this whole task with a single ECL 10 wizard. early on it was said the party wizard would just telport out of danger at anytime it came. if you dotn concider that powerful then you shouldnt have trouble with something liek time stop, or other such spells that deny them actions.

[Marnath]

I'll admit I skimmed the thread so I apologize if this has been brought up already, but what is the least optimized wizard you can make who can still evade capture? Invisibility and fly? Tanglefoot bag and running shoes?

[opticalshadow]

I'll admit I skimmed the thread so I apologize if this has been brought up already, but what is the least optimized wizard you can make who can still evade capture? Invisibility and fly? Tanglefoot bag and running shoes?

least optimized, prolly a teleport on a contingincy word. inivs wouldnt do much, fairly low level spells coutner it.

rope tricks might work too at low levels.

[Flickerdart]

Sleep and 30ft per round movement rate?

[Suddo]

His own demiplane (obtained by casting genesis from a scroll). Claim this is overpowered if you will, but having used a single scroll is nothing compared to stone body all day, which is the same as casting a level 12 spell every day.

Man scrolls are way too cheap, cost wise. I wonder if my DM in my next game would allow me to get this going at level 6.
Edit: Damn Genesis is slightly more obscure than I thought it was.

Though on the note of the topic:
I do agree that getting things cast on you well before you could do it yourself is some what in the realm of cheese. Even if there are prices for these services and they are within wealth by level I consider 9ths to be almost off limits for this due to the fact why would a 17th level wizard give this power away? But still I think the wizard at least has a very good chance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Having a demiplane via Genesis or otherwise is one thing, getting there is another matter entirely. Wizards don't get Plan Shift until 7th level spells, so unless you want to pick up even more scrolls or a staff, you're not going to be able to reliably reach your demiplane and you may even find yourself trapped there.

[Johel]

You have a 10th level wizard. And I want to capture you. Some say it's impossible. Some say it's easy. So can you build a 10th level wizard that can't be caught?

As it can get beyond crazy, we will have to set boundaries.

*Obviously only Wizards D&D stuff. Standard WBL.
*Keep the wizard normal, as this is an example of the average wizard can be captured. So while you can make a build with an exotic prestige class(often with the no role-playing cheat) or a rare feat or spell or such, we want more 'just a wizard', not an optimized wizard nightmare cheat of a character.
*We are also talking about a normal character in a normal world. So this character is active for 16 hours a day and sleeps for 8. They need to eat and rest and otherwise do all the normal things people do. Making a wizard that lives 24/7 in a magical fortress is pointless.
*Note that with above we are talking about a wizard character that is awake and active a full 16 hours a day. And at the start, they have no idea they are being hunted. So we are not talking about a 'fight scene' where the wizard has cast and done a dozen things to protect themselves right before an attack. For right now we are looking for what a wizard can do, in general, on a day to day basis. We are not looking for ''how would a wizard avoid a trap he knowing walked into''.
*We are assuming a social wizard, not a hermit. So anything that would not be socially acceptable in 'normal society' is out.
*No Infinite Loops or other such rubbish. We want a real wizard character.
*The character can't 'just' be an escape artist. While you can make this character and that is all fine and good, it does not really prove the point that you can capture the average wizard. The character needs to be a typical adventuring type wizard.

So can anyone make this wizard?

I'm no D&D lawyer so don't expect an invincible combo.
But I'll try to give you a run for your money.


Race : Grey Elf
Class : Wizard 10
Chaotic Good
30 ptd buy abilities
30 known spells + all cantrips
49.000 gp of stuff


The Wizard will be a "social" wizard in that he will spend a great deal of his time travelling the world to help various benevolent rulers.
Indeed as a powerful Wizard, he has taken upon himself to preserve peace and happiness among the people of those kingdoms.
To achieve this, he is acting as a "wild card" :

Funding adventurers "brave, strong and generous of hearth"
Training apprentices
Reinforcing each allied kingdom through magic
Acting as an advisor and a mediator in conflicts between rulers
Keeping track of the various threaths

While a public figure, he is well-known for his secrecy and his tendency to act in the background rather than by taking care of problems himself.
Also, his services are not for free.
A man gotta make a living and spell components ain't cheap these days.
This explains how he can finance all these activities.
But the activities also explain why he didn't break the WBL yet...

Deal ?
If yes, I'll work on the details.
Otherwise, no thanks.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How to break WBL:

1) Wall of Iron. Even with material costs involved, it's still a massive cash cow if you sell the iron as a trade good.

2) Flesh to Salt. You'd be surprised how much cash you can get from a cow or two hit by this.

[Gamer Girl]

also it seems relitivly easy to finish this whole task with a single ECL 10 wizard. early on it was said the party wizard would just telport out of danger at anytime it came. if you dotn concider that powerful then you shouldnt have trouble with something liek time stop, or other such spells that deny them actions.

Just reading through the thread. And I think the OP missed the ultimate trump card against things like that turtle or any other wacky thing a play might do. There are no rules for encounter levels! By the rules, a character can run into anything! It does not matter if it's more powerful or not, or even if it's not fair! So the poor 10th level wizard can simply be caught by several 'anythings' of level say 11+. And that is by the rules :)


Hummm, If I was gonna catch a wizard, I think the first thing I'd do is get a beholder. That portable anti-magic ray is nice. Maybe like a beholder occult slayer?

[Gamer Girl]

Deal ?
If yes, I'll work on the details.
Otherwise, no thanks.

I'd like to see this wizard.

I always like to see other characters and see how other people do things.

[Flickerdart]

Just reading through the thread. And I think the OP missed the ultimate trump card against things like that turtle or any other wacky thing a play might do. There are no rules for encounter levels! By the rules, a character can run into anything! It does not matter if it's more powerful or not, or even if it's not fair! So the poor 10th level wizard can simply be caught by several 'anythings' of level say 11+. And that is by the rules :)
There were a number of challenges, a while back, with a 13th level Wizard against a 20th level Fighter. The outcomes were decidedly wizard-centric.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just reading through the thread. And I think the OP missed the ultimate trump card against things like that turtle or any other wacky thing a play might do. There are no rules for encounter levels! By the rules, a character can run into anything! It does not matter if it's more powerful or not, or even if it's not fair! So the poor 10th level wizard can simply be caught by several 'anythings' of level say 11+. And that is by the rules :)


Hummm, If I was gonna catch a wizard, I think the first thing I'd do is get a beholder. That portable anti-magic ray is nice. Maybe like a beholder occult slayer?

The problem is that no matter how powerful an entity the Wizard runs into... there's no way it can get the drop on him, and no way to prevent him from escaping.

Go ahead and send the Beholder after him. Send a dozen of them. He still goes first, he still poofs away before they can aim the AMF cone at him.

Go ahead and send Epic CR monsters. Same thing will happen.

As long as he goes first, you aren't going to grab him. Ever.

[Aharon]

As all epic spells, it requires DM approval, but you could create a mythal that anoints the spell schools enabling the wizard to act first, or even all spells. Make the mythal big enough to be guaranteed to include the wizard.

Granted, this is an undertaking that demands very considerable ressources - but it can be done.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As all epic spells, it requires DM approval, but you could create a mythal that anoints the spell schools enabling the wizard to act first, or even all spells. Make the mythal big enough to be guaranteed to include the wizard.

Granted, this is an undertaking that demands very considerable ressources - but it can be done.

Then all you need to do is convince the wizard to enter an area where his primary ability to defend himself (his spells) may be curtailed.

Mmm... survey says.... notta chance, bub.

[Aharon]

He doesn't have to enter it - just be in its area when the spell is cast. The seed is a 100 feet emanation, but it follows most of the usual rules for epic spells, so you can make it bigger (area increase to 1100 ft. for +40 DC, for example) and faster (reduce casting time to standard action).

Once foresight is in, this isn't doable anymore, but a 10th level wizard conforming to WBL with usual PO (no infinities etc.) could be trapped this way.

[Fatebreaker]

He doesn't have to enter it - just be in its area when the spell is cast. The seed is a 100 feet emanation, but it follows most of the usual rules for epic spells, so you can make it bigger (area increase to 1100 ft. for +40 DC, for example) and faster (reduce casting time to standard action).

Once foresight is in, this isn't doable anymore, but a 10th level wizard conforming to WBL with usual PO (no infinities etc.) could be trapped this way.

If you need an epic spell to capture a 10th-level wizard, that should tell you something.

[Aharon]

@Fatebreaker
Of course, an optimized wizard is hard to capture. I just set an upper bound on what might work. Perhaps somebody with more time at hand/better rules knowledge comes up with something that doesn't require epic.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's not difficult.

Go read the Transport Travelers Clause of Wish. You can grab anyone from any plane and move them to anywhere else on any other plane. The only defense against it is to make your will save.

Nothing stops you from just Wishing the wizard in question into a prison cell on a time locked (one round there is a hundred trillion years on the prime material plane) dead magic plane. When you want them back again you just Wish them back up and they, to all appearances, have been in stasis the whole time.

Of course the counter to this is for the wizard to have a minion that Wishes the wizard to him every so often.

[Red_Dog]

=>ShneekeyTheLost [and anyone else in the thread really]

Yep, I agree w/ your comments. I, myself, agreed awhile ago[wasn't on forums back than, so I dodged all arguments of "Wizard vs X" threads] that, wizards are broken. However. Wizard is by far not unbeatable, by RAW.

Here is a by far, if not the favorite, than my definitively top 5 quote about wizard's mechanics.
***I apologies if I am not allowed to quote other threads and people who haven't posted in this thread. I haven't seen anything about that in forum rules. However, I do apologies if that is a no-no.***


By Jack_Simth on 09-04-2008, 05:15 PM
1) Despite whether it may or may not seem reasonable, Contact Other Plane is still a Divination spell that's gathering information. If you're trying to use it to gather information about a particular creature, it is, RAW, foiled by mind blank - as ridiculous as it sounds. Especially as the Contact Other Plane spell includes the line "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces." (Emphasis added). Is a spell considered a force of some kind? If so, Mind Blank technically applies, as it is a force that blocks divinations. Fun bit: It's the DM that answers the question "Is a spell considered a force of some kind?" rather than the player. If the DM says Mind Blank stops Contact Other Plane, then it does, and it's still within the bounds of RAW. Potentially, Nondetection does as well.
2) In character, you don't know the results of the % roll. At 20th, you're asking, at most (assuming you don't have caster level boosters in play), ten questions per casting. It is also not specified in the spell who rolls the percentile, or whether the percentile is rolled on a per-question or per-casting basis. You don't know whether or not you have a correct answer.
3) Taking ten technically only applies to skills; Contact Other Plane requires an ability check. You may be able to re-cast and try again, but eventually, you'll fail the Intelligence check, and be in a pickle for a while. If you're abusing your familiar by way of using Share Spells to avoid the, there's notes that there are powers out there that get annoyed when familiars are abused in the Core books - you can lose access to your familiar doing this, even with a somewhat kind interpretation. On the plus side, Ability checks also do not have that pesky 1 = auto-fail rule; you can arrange to be certain of passing without too much work.
4) "Irrelevant" is a perfectly RAW-valid true answer. No note is made in the spell description for if "Irrelevant" is judged by the caster asking the question, or the being giving the answer - which means it's up to the DM when the spell is interpreted as written. What's to say that the Greater Outer Deity you contacted cares about your upcoming random encounters? It may very well be irrelevant to the Greater Outer Deity's goals; that may be the answer you get - repeatedly, if the DM doesn't like you.

If the DM is feeling adversarial, there are plenty of very, very easy counters to the Contact Other Plane spell.

Also, my favorite "counter" for the Schroedinger's Wizard?
A monstrous Schroedinger's Wizard. See, by the CR "rules", such as they are, "non-associated" class-levels count as 1/2 CR each until class levels exceed racial hit dice - and it includes a brief definition of associated and non-associated. Interestingly, Wizard levels are non-associated for the vast majority of creatures. A young Black Dragon is CR 5 with 10 racial hit dice, and is intelligent enough to advance by class when needed. Give him 20 class levels, and he's technically CR 20. Likewise, a Young Blue is CR 6 with 12 racial hit dice - +20 class levels = CR 20, if they're not associated. A Young Green is CR 5 with 11 hit dice - twenty class levels puts him at CR 19.5. A Very Young Red is CR 5 with 10 RHD, same as the Young Black. A Juvenile White is CR 6 with 12 hit dice, again. A Wyrmling Bronze is CR 3 with 6 RHD; A Very Young Silver is CR 5 with 10 RHD (and a +4 Int bonus).

I clone your build, and add a lot of racial hit dice with feats and skill points on top of it. Can you consistently defeat a souped-up version of yourself, played intelligently? Mind you, that doesn't prove anything at all about the Wizard, but it's somewhat satisfying at times.

So yeah... I like to think that this should be a sticky, but what do I know?^^


Now... could we get to that intriguing[lured me to this thread] build that Johel kindly promised us ^^? Or just generally interesting "trapping" techniques for arcanists? ^^


P.S. By the by, I am not defending OP[its internet ppl! Take a chill pill. Hell, take a whole bottle and sleep it off! Its just a game! ^^ have fun ^^], but just trying to get to a rather interesting topic and not "the usual" = ]

[Emperor Tippy]

=>ShneekeyTheLost [and anyone else in the thread really]

Yep, I agree w/ your comments. I, myself, agreed awhile ago[wasn't on forums back than, so I dodged all arguments of "Wizard vs X" threads] that, wizards are broken. However. Wizard is by far not unbeatable, by RAW.
See post #39 in this thread. In 11 steps a level 10 wizard can become utterly unbeatable. A level 20 wizard can do it entirely under his own power.

[Hirax]

For what it's worth, 3 levels of divine oracle gets you lots of great divination abilities, and one of them is the ability to roll percentiles twice on divinations, so you're reducing the odds of a wrong answer from 12% to 1.44% for contact other plane. Further, a level 16 venerable grey elf that used point buy to get to 18, for a starting int of 23, adding 4 points from leveling, an enhancement bonus of 8 from constantly persisted necrotic empowerment, with a +5 inherent bonus (or whenever they can afford it, too lazy to look up WBL) has an int mod of 15, meaning they automatically succeed on the ability check. The spell mechanus mind (Spell Comp.) can be used to grant an additional +2 to int based checks, so a human not persisting necrotic empowerment could still automatically succeed at level 16, or whenever they could afford a +5 inherent bonus.

Another great divination trick is to use an amulet of second chances. You can cast vision, then use an amulet of second chances to restart your round, undoing all your actions and getting you back the exp your spent to cast vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vision.htm), but explicitly allowing you and others to retain the knowledge of the lost round. If you want to be even more abusive, once you've got all day shapechange active, be a chonotyryn. Cast vision, cast vision again, and then quickened vision, then activate your amulet of second chances. 3 visions, one round, no exp lost, no actions spent.

[Red_Dog]

=>Emperor Tippy

I simple refuse to argue on this subject any further than "mirror you does every step you did, and it boils down to who won initiative d20, which is probably[statistically speaking] mirror you due to higher amount of feats/higher dex". The quote I offered had basically that in the end using core rules = ]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree? I am not really trying to convince anyone, but rather get the thread back on rails because as I've said=>

I came for cool "escape artist wizard builds" like the one promised by Johel = ] But, I respect everyone's right to focus on "Wizard vs X" or "wizard is broken"[which I agree w/] issue.

=>Hirax
Wow... what do you know? That Vision trick is sweet. I am definitely giving it to my crazy local divinating wizard ^^. Thx dude! ^^

Also BTW, about optimizing the Int checks? Hire a marshal NPC an average +4-6[w/ cheap item]Cha equals that bonus on Int checks. ^^ Not the best solution I would think, but neet none the less?

[Hirax]

That's why everyone with leadership has at least one marshall. :smallbiggrin:

Or why everyone with mother cyst uses necrotic tumor to make a marshall their thrall. :smallamused:

[Emperor Tippy]

=>Emperor Tippy

I simple refuse to argue on this subject any further than "mirror you does every step you did, and it boils down to who won initiative d20, which is probably[statistically speaking] mirror you due to higher amount of feats/higher dex". The quote I offered had basically that in the end using core rules = ]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree? I am not really trying to convince anyone, but rather get the thread back on rails because as I've said=>

I came for cool "escape artist wizard builds" like the one promised by Johel = ] But, I respect everyone's right to focus on "Wizard vs X" or "wizard is broken"[which I agree w/] issue.
It's irrelevant what abilities the enemy has, such a wizard is incapable of being killed (or even detained). More precisely, the only way for him to be harmed is to cast an epic spell that uses backlash mitigation. And even that won't kill him.



=>Hirax
Wow... what do you know? That Vision trick is sweet. I am definitely giving it to my crazy local divinating wizard ^^. Thx dude! ^^

Also BTW, about optimizing the Int checks? Hire a marshal NPC an average +4-6[w/ cheap item]Cha equals that bonus on Int checks. ^^ Not the best solution I would think, but neet none the less?
Go look at the Weirds, MM2 page 92.

"Prescience (Su): At will and as a free action, a weird can duplicate the effect of any of the following divination spells: analyze dweomer, clairaudience/ clairvoyance, contact other plane, detect thoughts, discern location, find the path, foresight, greater scrying, legend lore, locate creature, locate object, tongues, true seeing, vision. Caster level 18th;"

Shapechange into one of those instead.

[Hirax]

The trick I outlined is only practical for combat, since it can get you 3 visions with no actions spent, and you haven't used your form change for the round. Otherwise out of combat, divination is, as the cynical adage about here goes, 20 questions with the universe, except you're not limited to 20 questions.

edit: wait, you can combine a weird into the chronotyryn+amulet trick. If you start as a weird you can use true seeing/vision as a free action, presumably only once to be nice. The as a free action change into a chronotyryn and cast vision 3 more times. Then use the amulet, which reverts you to a weird, allowing you to freely use vision or true seeing once more, then proceed with your full complement of actions.

[Emperor Tippy]

Or you can stay a Weird and cast your divination's a few hundred times each before acting as there is no limitation on free actions. :smallwink:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you need an epic spell to capture a 10th-level wizard, that should tell you something.

Gee, too bad you just captured his astral projection. Planar Binding, Lesser to bind a Nightmare.

We're sorry, but the wizard is in another location.

[Flickerdart]

Or you can stay a Weird and cast your divination's a few hundred times each before acting as there is no limitation on free actions. :smallwink:
You still need 1 round to ask a question though, no?

[Fatebreaker]

Gee, too bad you just captured his astral projection. Planar Binding, Lesser to bind a Nightmare.

We're sorry, but the wizard is in another location.

Oh, of course he is.

I'm just saying that if the solution to capturing a 10th-level character requires epic magic to pull off, you might as well resort to DM fiat, 'cause that's basically what you just did.

Or look into a new game system.

Y'know. Whichever.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Oh, of course he is.

I'm just saying that if the solution to capturing a 10th-level character requires epic magic to pull off, you might as well resort to DM fiat, 'cause that's basically what you just did.

Or look into a new game system.

Y'know. Whichever.

Sorry, I was trying to quote the guy who suggested Mithals in the first place, not you.

But yea, a Wizard isn't going to be captured if he doesn't want to be. Killing one is tough enough, trying to capture one alive? Starts off as an act of futility and ends up being the case of the Ransom of Redchief.

[Aharon]

Shifting the goalposts, we were talking about celerity, not AP. Do you conceed that mythal works on celerity build?

AP:
1. Harder to aquire.
a. Via Nightmare needs specific conjuring/abjuring specialized build (totally RAW, abjuring because DC of Magic Circle matters more).
b. Via scrolls becomes expensive if adventuring intended (can be dispelled, eats into WBL)

2. Beatable.
Spirit Binding + Supressive field + True name; Gate+designation that clarifies wizard as target.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shifting the goalposts, we were talking about celerity, not AP. Do you conceed that mythal works on celerity build?

AP:
1. Harder to aquire.
a. Via Nightmare needs specific conjuring/abjuring specialized build (totally RAW, abjuring because DC of Magic Circle matters more).
b. Via scrolls becomes expensive if adventuring intended (can be dispelled, eats into WBL)

2. Beatable.
Spirit Binding + Supressive field + True name; Gate+designation that clarifies wizard as target.

Check again how long it takes to cast a Mythal. Now you're proposing to detain a wizard in an area that long? If you can do that, you've already captured him.

PB,L isn't difficult to acquire. It's a bog-standard 5th level spell, available by level 9. Requires zero specialization as far as build goes.

And it most certainly isn't beatable. At worst, you've kicked his projection out of the area. A minor inconvenience at best. You still haven't managed to actually threaten the wizard personally.

[Aharon]

@Mythal
Casting time reduction as per usual epic rules, if DM permits, which according to Tippy is the usual assumption in those discussions. And I find it very unsportsmanlike to continue to insist that we were talking about an AP'd wizard before, which we were not.

@PB,L
Nightmare get's saves against both the binding itself, and the magic circle. If it makes the save, enjoy being harassed by astral projections of this nightmare for the rest of your life.

@beatable
You are aware that your AP counts as spirit for the purpose of spirit binding? And you are aware that successfully bound creatures can't do jack ****, especially when they are in a supressive field? And you are also aware that the spell Trap the Soul exists, and most certainly captures the bound spirit that way?

You are, presumably, also aware, that Gate cannot only call random, but specific creatures, and that our wizard is a specific creature, and thus can be called and commanded to enter a soul gem?

We are talking about a 10th level guy. I didn't even invoke gods or ****, but given sufficient force, he most certainly can be captured.

Perhaps an appeal to authority might convince you: I discussed the topic at length with Doc Roc, in 2009, and he agreed that you can trap casters if you have enough caster support on your own side.

[Emperor Tippy]

As I said, just Wish the Wizard you want to capture to a time locked, dead magic, demiplane. Even if they can escape within 1 round of arrival they will still find that a hundred trillion years have passed on the prime material plane.

The defense against that is to have SR that can't be overcome or to be incapable of failing your will save. Nothing else would prevent you from being Wished to the prison plane. The only way out of the prison plane is for someone outside of it to Wish you out of it.

The counter to that, if you disable the target first, is to place a Craft Contingent Wish on them set to activate if they leave the plane and don't appear standing on a blue sheet. Although that can end up just becoming a Wish war.

[Aharon]

@Tippy
Dead Magic trait description in Manual of the Planes state that the only way to enter a dead magic plane is through a portal.

I'm not 100% sure how D&D handles interaction between specific and general rules - is it like Magic, where specific always beats general?

[Emperor Tippy]

@Tippy
Dead Magic trait description in Manual of the Planes state that the only way to enter a dead magic plane is through a portal.

I'm not 100% sure how D&D handles interaction between specific and general rules - is it like Magic, where specific always beats general?

D&D, specific always trumps general. And in this case Wish is the specific "anywhere on any plane, regardless of local conditions".

[Werekat]

Posting to say that I want to see Johel's build, too.

As for the starting topic itself - I personally think the idea is neat, but the conditions were poorly thought out by the OP.

I would personally like to see a build that does not depend on any spells the consequences of which require DM fiat to adjudicate properly. By which I mean: no Planar Binding, as the consequences of binding creatures with SLAs are usually social ("The creature might later seek revenge" and all that jazz), no Wishes outside of the formulated clauses, no polymorph into creatures outside of Core (anything out of other books that can be allowed/banned by the DM), no Contact Other Plane (the reply depends on DM fiat), and such things. I promise I won't overreact to any clarifications, though.

Basically - I want a build that relies only on effects that are completely and clearly spelled out in the rules.

As a special "cherry-on-top" request - no Celerity line, 'cause it's banned in our games, and I'd like to crib some fun strategies that don't rely on it. :D

[Emperor Tippy]

Those restrictions don't actually change anything.

One of the listed possibilities of Wish is to create any magic item.

They also do nothing to stop Simulacrum or Ice Assassin use.

And there is really nothing Ice Assassin abuse can't do.

[Werekat]

Point taken. Problem is, all three spells cost XP. I'd say an additional barrier might be an interesting restriction - because the barrier is, if I remember correctly, "once you'd lose a level from an XP cost spell, you can't cast it any longer?

Does a restriction on three major XP cost spells before reaching that barrier sound reasonable to you?

I'd also subject Simulacrum and Ice Assassin to the same restriction as Polymorph - exactly because it requires fiat to construct something out of core. Unless you're relying on duplicating yourself - do spells actually count as abilities, by the way? I'm not entirely clear on the rules minutiae here.

Edited for an additional thought: and keeping to WBL - because breaking WBL requires DM fiat. Sure, you can make salt out of cows. But the DM has say over whether anyone actually needs salt in your world. So let's keep money restricted to WBL to make things easier.

[Emperor Tippy]

It only costs you a thousand XP (and you don't even have to pay that if you buy a scroll) for the initial gate. You use that to order the gated solar to use it's Wish SLA to create for you a Scroll of Ice Assassin of a Solar (if you limit it to core only monsters). You then use that scroll to create your IA Solar who you then order to use it's Wish SLA to Wish you up another scroll.

Then you get IA scrolls for any monster or creature that has an ability you would like access to. IA yourself and you get an identical minion that you can use to cast all of your non personal range buffs for you. You can also carry one in a bag of holding or the like and bring it out for utility casting throughout the day.

While you can't use full Ice Assassin abuse (although if you are limited to the SRD you can) with your restrictions it's still sufficient.

[Werekat]

Please note that Gate, under my conditions, would fall into the category as Planar Binding - requiring DM fiat to adjudicate all consequences. such as what the creature asks for its services or what it is going to do after you subject it to outright control.

Even in case of "immediate service," there's no reason the DM can't say "once the Solar leaves, it uses its SLA to trap you in that nice little no-time dead-magic demiplane you told me about". And I'd rather avoid the discussion on whether they would or wouldn't.

[Emperor Tippy]

Use a Scroll of Simulacrum Solar then and order the SS to perform the Wish.

[Werekat]

Can you actually make an Ice Assassin of a Simulacrum, though? And if not - we once again fall into the category of spells whose consequences are social (what do Solars do after you get an Ice Assassin after it? Yes, you do have perfect control over the Assassin - but only if you're within a mile of it. Whether you lose that control or not is also largely up to the storyline the DM makes up.)

[Flickerdart]

Whether you lose that control or not is also largely up to the storyline the DM makes up.
In that case, you might as well just say that the wizard being captured is also up to the storyline the DM makes up.

[Werekat]

Flickerdart. Not really, I think. What I'd like to do is to avoid using spells that rely on social interactions to keep them in check - basically the ones that read "if the player misuses it, go after him".

[Emperor Tippy]

Who said anything about making a Simulacrum of an Ice Assassin? You make a Simulacrum of the real creature.

As for being out of range, you carry your Ice Assassins around in a bag of holding; they are never out of range (if the DM rules that they don't have to obey previously given orders once you are more than a mile apart).

[Werekat]

Tippy, it still sounds like a fairly dangerous tactic to me. If I were the enemy of that wizard, I'd be thinking about how to suppress that control for a few rounds, let the Ice Assassin Plane Shift and attack its original, and then let the wizard deal with the consequences.

But let's count this one as a plus anyhow. Now, what's the next best thing?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And really, all of the options that might work all boil down to: "A bigger, generally epic-level, Wizard".

However, you can't really get a Mithal down to a standard action, so there's really no chance to catch a Wizard in one as you try to raise it. And even if you could, Dire Tortoise still gives him a surprise round before it finishes going up to get out of dodge. Craft Contingency Celerity upon someone casting a Mithal with a radius that encompasses me also works. You'd also need not only epic magic, but Gate Chain shennanigans to pull it off in the first place, which makes it high-end Epic CR. Considering he's a CL 10 critter, and you're having to use a CL 22+ encounter to even have a chance of bagging him... that says something right there, doesn't it?

The wish thing might work, unless you blow a wish to prevent it from happening, which leads to all kind of recursive problems that I'd rather not get into.

The wish thing, however, only drops them somewhere. It also depends on if the GM considers that aspect of Wish to be a teleport and subject to a couple of non-core things which can block, redirect, or delay the teleportation.

Problems with casting in where you put him are easily negated by Invoke Magic scroll, although he'd need to burn some WBL (Invoke Magic scroll and Plane Shift scroll) to get out. Congratulations, you've made him burn money. Now he'll have to make a few Walls of Iron or turn some cows into salt via Flesh to Salt to bring himself back up, assuming he isn't already arbitrarily wealthy from using these tactics in the first place.

[Emperor Tippy]

And really, all of the options that might work all boil down to: "A bigger, generally epic-level, Wizard".

However, you can't really get a Mithal down to a standard action, so there's really no chance to catch a Wizard in one as you try to raise it. And even if you could, Dire Tortoise still gives him a surprise round before it finishes going up to get out of dodge. Craft Contingency Celerity upon someone casting a Mithal with a radius that encompasses me also works. You'd also need not only epic magic, but Gate Chain shennanigans to pull it off in the first place, which makes it high-end Epic CR. Considering he's a CL 10 critter, and you're having to use a CL 22+ encounter to even have a chance of bagging him... that says something right there, doesn't it?
You can actually make it an immediate action cast.


The wish thing might work, unless you blow a wish to prevent it from happening, which leads to all kind of recursive problems that I'd rather not get into.
You can't blow a wish to prevent it, just to escape it after the fact.


The wish thing, however, only drops them somewhere. It also depends on if the GM considers that aspect of Wish to be a teleport and subject to a couple of non-core things which can block, redirect, or delay the teleportation.
The DM would be houseruling if he did so.


Problems with casting in where you put him are easily negated by Invoke Magic scroll, although he'd need to burn some WBL (Invoke Magic scroll and Plane Shift scroll) to get out. Congratulations, you've made him burn money. Now he'll have to make a few Walls of Iron or turn some cows into salt via Flesh to Salt to bring himself back up, assuming he isn't already arbitrarily wealthy from using these tactics in the first place.
And in the 1-2 rounds it took you to escape, the heat death of the universe has already occurred. That's why I have been specific that it needs to be a very slow time plane. The Dead Magic bit is to make escape more difficult and to shut down magic items, you can't actually use a Scroll of Invoke Magic in a dead magic area.

[Aharon]

And really, all of the options that might work all boil down to: "A bigger, generally epic-level, Wizard".

So you retract your statement that nobody ever can capture a 10th level wizard any way?

@Mythal
Of course, easily done by chain gating, but also possible with less cheese:

Base DC 25
+160 for anointing eight schools of magic
~+20 for anointing wish and limited wish
105 times +100% area for +420 DC and 2 miles radius

Casting time stays at 10 minutes, since surprise rounds only happen in encounters, and not if somebody a mile away does somthing.

DC is 605
-42 for backlash
-100 burn 10.000 xp on casting
-20 capstone
*3/4 corruptible
*3/4 anchored

Final DC 250

Easily doable with extra spell (Improvisation) and CL 500.

Get Extra Spell, take the bard spell improvisation, get a floating +1/2 CL luck bonus, which you spend on casting. Use that DL feat that uncaps spells.

But this is an extreme example, it's better and cheaper only to anoint specific spells.

@Invoke magic:
How does a 4th level spell help you get out of a dead magic plane, anyway?

[Quellian-dyrae]

This kind of got me thinking...how would this sound for "real game" style rules?

The Setting

The wizard's current goal is to forge an alliance with a nearby city. This city is fairly suspicious of magic; while not openly hostile to magical practitioners, the wizard is aware that blatant displays of magic in its attempts to garner the alliance will hinder its efforts, and if more subtle displays of magic are somehow noticed it will cast significant doubt upon the wizard. The wizard doesn't have to strictly hide magic use, but any magic that directly or indirectly affects his interactions with the nobles of this city is too great a risk. The wizard has to actually speak to several people, set meetings, and so on, so it has to be out and about during the day.

Functionally, this means that the wizard has to take some care with whatever magic is active on his person. Having protective spells on is fine, but interacting with these people through a projection or illusion or the like could kill the wizard's ability to complete its primary goal. Fortunately, this also means the wizard can dedicate its entire spell output to personal defense.

While the wizard is not strictly expecting attack at the outset, it knows that the common enemy it is trying to forge this alliance against probably does not want to see it happen.

The Wizard

The wizard is a solo PC with access to pretty much all official books, but there are certain restrictions in play to achieve a semblance of balance.
-The campaign prohibits infinite loops, arbitrarily high stats, and other TO.
-The wizard may not, by any means, cast or have cast for it any spell of greater than 1/2 (its level + 1) (in other words, the maximum spell level for a wizard of its level not resorting to any early access tricks).
-The wizard may not by any means increase its WBL, although it can use crafting to get appropriate discounts on items.
-The wizard is at the midpoint to next level for purposes of XP to spend on crafting and spells with an XP cost.
-The wizard may not by any means acquire the form, services, or powers of a creature with a CR higher than its own.
-The wizard may not by any means acquire the services of creatures with a total calculated EL higher than its own.
-The wizard may not by any means cast more than two spells in one combat round.
-The wizard begins the challenge waking up in the morning in its base with no spells cast or items equipped, but it may cast and use whatever it wishes before heading out.

The Opposition

The DM actively wants to capture the wizard so as to stage an escape or rescue quest, but also plans to be fair about it and play within the resources that the common enemy can afford to spare. The goal is to capture the wizard, not to thwart the wizard's primary goal (in fact, any direct attacks or threats against the city will catalyze an alliance, so the opposition can't attempt to force the wizard into a trap by threatening its contacts).
-The sum total of the opposition cannot have a calculated EL of greater than the wizard's level + 4 (which would be a single "overpowering" encounter for a full party...I mean, ya know, if the CR system worked, but whatever). This can be divided up among multiple encounters.
-The wizard is presumed safe in its base; encounters don't begin until the wizard has completed its preparations. Likewise, after a full day of operations, the wizard may return to its base and is again presumed safe.
-The opposition has no access to perishable magic items. NPCs use NPC WBL. Monsters may be given NPC WBL for +1 CR. The opposition does not take crafting feats.
-NPCs cannot have any spells or abilities active prior to an encounter, unless they affect the NPCs in the encounter (i.e. buffs are fine, summons and battlefield alterations are not, although the latter can be used during a surprise round or in battle just fine).
-The opposition is assumed able to track the wizard well enough to force the initial encounter(s). Once an encounter begins, if the wizard escapes, the NPCs have to play by the rules to find it again.
-OPTIONALLY: The opposition's composition might be restricted to account for what we are testing impossibility of capture against (i.e. no other wizards, no arcane full casters, no tier 1 casters, whatever).

Terms of Victory:

The wizard wins if it is able to spend the day accomplishing its goals and return to its base. This requires being active for twelve hours and traveling around a city environment. This can be done by destroying all opposition forces, or by escaping and eluding them.

The opposition wins if they are able to capture the wizard and deliver it to their master before the wizard accomplishes its goals for the day and returns to its base. Keeping the wizard trapped thereafter is not within the scope of the challenge.

The challenge ends in a failure for both sides if the wizard is killed, or if it flees the city and is unable or unwilling to return that day, before its twelve hours of activity is up. This is not considered a "draw"; these events detrimentally affect the ongoing campaign, so both sides should consider it better for the other side to win than for one of these outcomes to occur.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So you retract your statement that nobody ever can capture a 10th level wizard any way?

Allow me to rephrase it as:

"The only thing which has a chance of capturing a Wizard against his will is an epic-level Wizard who is specifically built to the task. Even this does not guarantee success, but it is at least theoretically possible in this instance."

If you expect the wizard to stay in the area, particularly when his Contingency just went off, you are not playing in the same games I am.

And actually, Craft Contingency might counter the wish effect as well. depending on how you word it. Something like "Should any effect attempt to redirect me to another plane" should trigger it.

Wish has a nifty thing called: "Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event." Undo the effects of the wish that attempting to move me to a different plane. The contingency triggering the celerity gives me the action to do it in before landing there.

[Aharon]

@rephrasing
Yep, now we have an upper bound. Let's work on lowering that. The spell btw., would not only be useful in this instance, but is general purpose protection/caster disabling for large areas (your own fortress, the dungeon you just entered, ...) so please strike the "specifically build for" part.

@contingency
Uh... how would you phrase a contingency to reliably go off in this event (mythal), and not others? Do you want it to go off whenever anybody within a 2-mile radius of you casts a spell?

@Gate and Spiritbinding
You didn't comment on those, they can be done at 17th and 15th, respectively. Maybe even lower if cast from consumables.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

@rephrasing
Yep, now we have an upper bound. Let's work on lowering that.

@contingency
Uh... how would you phrase a contingency to reliably go off in this event (mythal), and not others? Do you want it to go off whenever anybody within a 2-mile radius of you casts a spell?Congingency Celerity upon someone casting a Mithal whose range includes my current location.


@Gate and Spiritbinding
You didn't comment on those, they can be done at 17th and 15th, respectively. Maybe even lower if cast from consumables.

Gate loops are arbitrary and can be done with a 1st level character, hence Pazuzu x 3 to pun-pun at level 1. Counter infinite gate loop with one of your own.

Define spiritbinding.

[Aharon]

@Contingency
OK. Crafted or normal contingency?
If crafted, that's another money sink, since they can get dispelled in unrelated battles.

@Gate
Huh? I'm not talking about a Gate loop. I'm talking about somebody calling the wizard with gate and then trapping him in a soul gem.

@Spirit Binding
Spirit Binding is in Complete Arcane, the Complete Arcane errata defines the spirits that can be bound, that definition includes astral projections.

[Emperor Tippy]

At 13th level:

Step 1: Create a Simulacrum of yourself.
Step 2: Polymorph it into yourself (this makes it much harder to detect as a fake).
Step 3: Cast Telepathic Bond on it.
Step 4: Make the Telepathic Bond permanent.
Step 5: Cast Nondetection on it to stop the various divination's from telling anyone what spells are on it.
Step 6: Sit back at your base and essentially puppet your Simulacrum through the day.

Now at 10th level:
Step 1: Be native to a plane besides the material plane.
Step 2: Cast Dismissal on yourself if you are captured. This bypasses all of the anti-teleport defenses in the game and strands you on another plane (I recommend the Astral Plane) but it makes holding you practically impossible if you can get at least 1 standard action outside of an AMF.

Let's see, buffs.
First, I won't use the 5th level spell Call Nightmare to get Astral Projection.

You want the following Craft Contingent spells (each set to go off if you say some very weird word).Break Enchantment, Xorn Movement, Teleport, and Etheralness (Swift).

You also want a Craft Contingent Resilient Sphere set to go off around you if you are attacked. Ideally you want a few copies of this with each set to go off only after the previous ones have been used.

You also want a Spellblade of Dimensional Anchor (ideally on a Shuriken for GP savings).

When it's time for the fight your Contingent Resilient Sphere should go off. Once you get to act you say "Go, go, Break Enchantment" if you have been hit with something to prevent you from teleporting that wasn't blocked by your Spellblade, then you say "Go, go, Teleport" to head to your safe house which was pre-prepared and is covered in a permanent Mage's Sanctum to prevent divination's. The Resilient Sphere blocks line of effect for Forbiddance, Dimensional Lock, and most other types of teleportation blocking (even epic spells), the Break Enchantment strips off things like Dimensional Anchor.

If, for some reason, teleportation is still blocked and you are standing on any material that Xorn Movement will work through then say "Go, go Xorn Movement". Then you just flee underground without leaving a trace, cast Dimension Door if it isn't blocked (appearing underground) and you can easily get yourself a few miles away in a few turns.

The Swift Etheralness is there largely for the same reason.

As all these spells have come from Craft Contingent they don't actually eat up any of your spell slots, so you can load those down with whatever you think will be most useful.

You should have Arcane Sight and See Invisible already made permanent on you as well.

---
That should do for starters.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

@Contingency
OK. Crafted or normal contingency?
If crafted, that's another money sink, since they can get dispelled in unrelated battles.Crafted, but with pathetically easy access to cash loops, cash isn't a problem.


@Gate
Huh? I'm not talking about a Gate loop. I'm talking about somebody calling the wizard with gate and then trapping him in a soul gem.How can you call the wizard with a gate?

"The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect)"

My character does not possess the [Extraplanar] Subtype.


@Spirit Binding
Spirit Binding is in Complete Arcane, the Complete Arcane errata defines the spirits that can be bound, that definition includes astral projections.

First off, the Spirit Binding series is Wu Jen spell list only. Are you now proposing a Wu Jen is entering the match as well?

Very well, let us assume that one is

Dismiss my astral projection, make a new one later. Done. You certainly can't target me with it. All you can target is my projection. When I dismiss it, your spell no longer has a valid target, and the spell ends. You have given me a minor inconvenience

I also don't see where in the errata it says it can target astral projections, however it's a rather easy bypass anyways.

All of these tactics presuppose you can actually FIND my character, which is a non-trivial task.

Discern Location is usually the go-to spell for the occasion, however it has several prerequsites:

To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.

So first, you need to have seen me, not my projection, or owned something that once belonged to me, and considering the hoarding nature of most wizards, this is simply an absurd proposition.

Furthermore, the only information it provides is:

The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

Let us say I name my building "Not Found", the demiplane I have created is named "Undefined".

"He is at Not Found in the Undefined demiplane".

Rather a similar situation to Little Bobby Tables (http://xkcd.com/327/).

As far as anything else, there's several ways to defeat or fool most attempts to scry you, with Discern Location being the only real threat. Read up on the Joker Bard for more details.

[Aharon]

@cash loops
yeah, whatever.

@Gate
He does. Could you please read the relevant rules before throwing around stuff?

Extraplanar Subtype
A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Your Genesis'd plane is not your native plane, so you have the extraplanar subtype.

@Wu Jen only
Extra Spell/Scroll/whatever. You don't seem to care about the availability of stuff very much, so I don't see why I should limit myself.

@Dismissing
free action, not immediate. celerity blocked because of suppresive field. If the other guy wins Ini, he acts first, you lose.

@Spirit Binding
Seriously, could you please read before posting?
Complete Arcane Errata
Page 101, 123: Spirit Creatures
For the purposes of the commune with greater spirit,
commune with lesser spirit, greater spirit binding,
lesser spirit binding, spirit binding, spirit needle, and
spirit self spells, a “spirit” or “spirit creature” includes
any of the following creatures: all incorporeal undead,
all fey, all elementals, creatures in astral form or with
astral bodies (but not a creature physically present on
the Astral Plane), all creatures of the spirit subtype (see
Oriental Adventures), spirit folk and telthors (see
Unapproachable East), and spirit creatures created by
spells such as dream sight or wood wose (see Complete
Divine).

@Finding
Huh? Mythal yes, Binding and Gate no.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

@cash loops
yeah, whatever.

@Gate
He does. Could you please read the relevant rules before throwing around stuff?

Extraplanar Subtype
A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Your Genesis'd plane is not your native plane, so you have the extraplanar subtype.And my Demiplane is a transitive plane, therefore not Extraplanar subtype.


@Wu Jen only
Extra Spell/Scroll/whatever. You don't seem to care about the availability of stuff very much, so I don't see why I should limit myself.I already conceeded this point, although you can't Scroll it, and you can't Extra Spell from something not already on your list. We will assume that the team of individuals attempting to capture the nefarious wizard includes a Wu Jen of sufficient level to cast the spell.


@Dismissing
free action, not immediate. celerity blocked because of suppresive field. If the other guy wins Ini, he acts first, you lose.Wrong. You cast it. I dismiss my Projection. You have nothing to control. Even if you did, controlling my projection does not, in any way, control me.


@Spirit Binding
Seriously, could you please read before posting?
Complete Arcane Errata
Page 101, 123: Spirit Creatures
For the purposes of the commune with greater spirit,
commune with lesser spirit, greater spirit binding,
lesser spirit binding, spirit binding, spirit needle, and
spirit self spells, a “spirit” or “spirit creature” includes
any of the following creatures: all incorporeal undead,
all fey, all elementals, creatures in astral form or with
astral bodies (but not a creature physically present on
the Astral Plane), all creatures of the spirit subtype (see
Oriental Adventures), spirit folk and telthors (see
Unapproachable East), and spirit creatures created by
spells such as dream sight or wood wose (see Complete
Divine).And this point was already conceded and countered. Your point?

Furthermore, because Spirit Binding functions as Planar Binding, it also has this caveat:

If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual’s proper name in casting the spell.

So now you need to discern my proper name. Good luck with that.


@Finding
Huh? Mythal yes, Binding and Gate no.
Only you can't bind me because I'm not extraplanar. The best you can do is try to bind my astral projection, if I happen to be using one rather than a Simulcrum. In which case, I simply dismiss it. You have moderately inconvenienced me, but you have not captured me. Have a nice day.

[Aharon]

How is your plane transitive?
(Manual of Planes:
Transitive planes: This mixed bag of planes are grouped together by a common use: getting from one place to another. The Astral Plane is used to reach other planes, while the Ehereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow are both used for transportation within the Material Plane they're connected to. These planes have the strongest regular interaction with the Material Plane and are often accessed by using various spells. They have native inhabitants as well.)

Your demiplane is not used to get from one place to another the way the Astral Plane is, it is not accessed using various spells the way the Ethereal and Shadow Plane are, and it does not have native inhabitants.


@Access to Spirit Binding
Scroll: UMD.
Extra Spell: isn't list-dependent, AFAICT. Reason for your intepretation?

@Dismissing
I do not agree. You cannot take actions when it is not your turn. The AP contains your spirit, and thus you can be bound with Trap the soul. Wizard Captured, Goal accomplished.

@Proper Name
Truename research.

@discussion
Late over here, good night. I'll be back tomorrow.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How is your plane transitive?
(Manual of Planes:
Transitive planes: This mixed bag of planes are grouped together by a common use: getting from one place to another. The Astral Plane is used to reach other planes, while the Ehereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow are both used for transportation within the Material Plane they're connected to. These planes have the strongest regular interaction with the Material Plane and are often accessed by using various spells. They have native inhabitants as well.)You can declare any traits of your demiplane created by Genesis. I declare it to be transitive.


@Access to Spirit Binding
Scroll: UMD.
Extra Spell: isn't list-dependent, AFAICT. Reason for your intepretation?Why are you on this point still? Did you not read the part where I agree that your group can have access to this?

Besides, you are trying to hard. You have epic-level wizards, remember?

Wish.

Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.

Done.


@Dismissing
I do not agree. You cannot take actions when it is not your turn. The AP contains your spirit, and thus you can be bound with Trap the soul. Wizard Captured, Goal accomplished.Not quite...

"The spell lasts until you desire to end it," Doesn't require an action. You cast, I dismiss. Done. Besides, capturing the Astral Projection does NOT mean capturing the wizard. You call my projection. Big deal, even if you manage to do it, I dismiss it before you can do anything with it, and it certainly is not my 'soul', and so cannot be used to Soul Bind or anything else related.


@Proper Name
Truename research.Only because we're not dealing with a Legendary individual, it's Obscure. You can't even attempt it without using magic that doesn't work.

In fact, it's easier for me to hit you with this tactic than it is for you to hit me, because you have epic level casters, and I'm not even 11th level yet.

Which brings up a very interesting point. While you may be trying to capture me, my counteractions will be with decidedly lethal intent. When not actively countering your attempts to capture me, I will be bending all of my efforts and resources to kill the individual(s) trying to capture me. I probably won't succeed, of course, but if you neglect your people's defenses in an attempt to capture me, I will exploit any gap in their defenses I can find.

I will concede that you can, fairly trivially, kill my character. You have access to Epic magic, after all.

Besides, the only affect of learining the Truename of something is to give you a +2 bonus on Truespeak checks. Nothing in there says that it counts as the Proper Name requirement for Planar Binding. And to do so in the first place requires a starting point you don't have.

[Flickerdart]

The Genesis demiplane is practically on the Ethereal plane (coterminous with it). If anything, it's transitive by default.

[Aharon]

@Shneekey
Once again, RTFM. Transitive isn't a trait you can assign. It is a category a plane that fulfills certain conditions falls under - like the category Outer Planes or the category (!) Demiplanes. The only RAW transitive planes are the Ethereal, the Astral and the Shadow Plane. The Manual of Planes allows for other transitive planes because the DM may choose to create them. The abridged SRD version flat out states that only the above three planes are transitive planes.

@Point repetition
You continue to misrepresent my position, which is why I repeat it. We have established that epic level wizards can do it. Upper bound. Scrolls of Spirit binding etc. mean that lower level guys also can do it. You do not need epic.

@Dismissing
I guess we have to agree to disagree here. The entire ruleset of D&D contains no examples of acting out of turn except speech as free action and immediate actions, and those specifically point out that they can be taken out of turn. Astral Projection doesn't point this out, so it is a case of you applying "The rules don't say I can't!", IMO.

@capturing projection
Would you please have the courtesy to read what I write? I have said what happens afterwards: binding your soul - which is in your projection at this point - into a gem with the Spell Trap the Soul.

@levels
As I said, I don't require epic level casters. If you are of the opinion that the Proper Name is not the same thing as the Truename, please tell me what definition for Proper Name you would use? Is it the name you were given at birth/creation? I would also be pleased if you could point out a source.

@Flickerdart
That is not true. I pointed out the definition of transitive above, which doesn't apply to demiplanes created by genesis.

Also,


Coterminous Planes
Planes that touch at specific points are coterminous. Where they touch, a connection exists, and travelers can leave one reality behind and enter the other.

So this doesn't change anything. Any plane with a portal to the Ethereal is coterminous to it. That doesn't make them transitive.