So... Greater Weapons You Say...

[SetArk]

Well guys! I'm having trouble with an logic/rule problem here...
Lets see it.. Well.. A Titan... With a freaking colossal warhammer.. With a size of the hitting part (Side of hammer) of at least 10 fts... Can only hit one little person on a 5ft square...
Doesnt it seen so... Strange? U get giantish weapons that, if it fall of the hand of the user, could literaly take down a house in the process... But if he wants to hit something.. he is limited to the 5 fts....

For exemple (The pratical one that makes my questions start...) A colossal titan, try to smash the party tank. But the idiot ranger , stayed aside of the tank! For rules <At least all that i know> he , with his massive weapon, could only hit with a meele atack the tank or the ranged.. Even if they are asie... And his weapon can clearly smash the two squares at the same time ¬.¬

If he throwed his hammer, i bet that they would have been stuck under it. . .

So.. Anyone knows if there's any rule for that? Something like an "AoE" for atacks with weapons so freaking large?

(Another funny question that has started on the same day were if the Xixecal, yes the Xixecal a FREAKING MOUNTAIN, would have to aim on a 5ft square to deal damage... Dude a punch of that freak would totaly wreak a house, maybe 2 or 3...)

[Ashtagon]

Each size class is by RAW a doubling of length. And colossal is of course 4 size classes above Medium.

Assuming the business end of a Medium war hammer is an inch across, that makes the business end of colossal war hammer 16 inches across. The overall weapon length (handle to tip) will be on the order of about 48 feet (compared to 3 feet for the Medium weapon).

So, assuming the titan is attacking with the weapon as designed, then a single Medium target is not unreasonable. If he is trying to sweep opponents with the haft of the weapon, that could probably be resolved as some kind of limited bull rush manoeuvre.

[Raimun]

Yes, it's obvious the combat system was built with Medium-sized creatures in mind.

I can't remember if there are any Monstrous Feats or something that would fix this but that doesn't really matter. Any Colossal creature should be able to do this without special training or talent. House rules to the rescue?

Then again, smaller creatures can't climb (or better yet, fly) bigger creatures and strike (or shoot) their big weak points like eyes, Shadow of the Colossus-style. Or they could but there's no advantage gained.

[Spiryt]

Well, assuming that hitting site of the hammer would be 10 feet wide, and that hammer was a cube ( though it doesn't make sense, really), then hammer head would weight about 212 tonnes alone, assuming that adamantine is about as dense as iron.

Many times more than Titan himself. :smallwink:

Plus what above - in short Gargantuan hammers are not that big.


Xixecal is good question though, can't see anything in it's entry.

[Raimun]

The hammer isn't that great example but take a look at PHB, p. 150. Compare the Colossal Dragon and the Medium Human.

I think the Dragon could hit two or three (or more) Humans with one strike.

[Tr011]

There is no reason not to get Power Attack, Cleave and Area Attack (SS). This would make sure you attack multiple enemies with your hits.

[Rejusu]

Yeah, even a colossal warhammer is not going to be 10ft across. 5 or 6ft maybe. Enough to edge into two squares, but not enough to strike someone in the other square. It's not too much a suspension of disbelief to imagine that even though a big enough creature should be capable of hitting multiple squares that anyone in an adjacent square that isn't being aimed at could just dodge the hit.

[Ashtagon]

Yeah, even a colossal warhammer is not going to be 10ft across. 5 or 6ft maybe. Enough to edge into two squares, but not enough to strike someone in the other square. It's not too much a suspension of disbelief to imagine that even though a big enough creature should be capable of hitting multiple squares that anyone in an adjacent square that isn't being aimed at could just dodge the hit.

Not even 5-6 feet.

Here is a war hammer

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/War_hammer2.jpg

As I noted upthread, the business end is about an inch across.

Possibly, some people are thinking of weaponised versions of the mallet. Here's a mallet:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Round_copper_mallet.JPG

The business end of that example is maybe 1.5 inches across, and since that appears to be a Small (in D&D terms) tool, let's double that to 3 inches for a Medium weaponised version.

Even so, once you scale up to Colossal size, you get 48 inches - about four feet.

So yes, if you ignore the meaning of warhammer and consider a mallet to be a warhammer instead, then you almost get something that will impact the entire square.

If you want weapons that could (but aren't) be considered area effect, consider a Colossal naginata. That's a katana blade (3 feet of blade) mounted on a pole. By the time you get to Colossal, that blade is 48 feet long!

[Raimun]

Not even 5-6 feet.

Here is a war hammer

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/War_hammer2.jpg

As I noted upthread, the business end is about an inch across.

Possibly, some people are thinking of weaponised versions of the mallet. Here's a mallet:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Round_copper_mallet.JPG

The business end of that example is maybe 1.5 inches across, and since that appears to be a Small (in D&D terms) tool, let's double that to 3 inches for a Medium weaponised version.

Even so, once you scale up to Colossal size, you get 48 inches - about four feet.

So yes, if you ignore the meaning of warhammer and consider a mallet to be a warhammer instead, then you almost get something that will impact the entire square.


Gigantic hammer could still still hit multiple enemies. The mass of that thing would knock over people left and right. Think Sauron at the beginning of LotR, Fellowship of the ring. He was Huge (or Large). Now imagine a Colossal humanoid in place of him. Try lining a few plastic bottles filled with sand and try to knock them over with single strike of a mallet and you get the idea. Edit: Or better yet, with a sledge hammer.

Remember, a weapon swing isn't always vertical. It could be horizontal or angled ( /-angle or even lower).

[Ashtagon]

That's why you have the feats Cleave and Great Cleave.

Angmar the Witch King (the guy you actually see in the start of LotR) had Great Cleave.

[Spiryt]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Round_copper_mallet.JPG

The business end of that example is maybe 1.5 inches across, and since that appears to be a Small (in D&D terms) tool, let's double that to 3 inches for a Medium weaponised version.

Even so, once you scale up to Colossal size, you get 48 inches - about four feet.

So yes, if you ignore the meaning of warhammer and consider a mallet to be a warhammer instead, then you almost get something that will impact the entire square.


Still would give weapon way heavier that the wielder, so we can assume that something's rather off with D&D scalling, lol.


Remember, a weapon swing isn't always vertical. It could be horizontal or angled ( /-angle or even lower).

Certainly, but with that in mind, 'normally' sized humanoid could potentially attack other squares as well, D&D is just simple stuff.

Perhaps giving bigger creatures some kind of modified Whirlwind attack option would take care of their reach and size of their weapons and limbs.

[Raimun]

Still would give weapon way heavier that the wielder, so we can assume that something's rather off with D&D scalling, lol.



Certainly, but with that in mind, 'normally' sized humanoid could potentially attack other squares as well, D&D is just simple stuff.

Perhaps giving bigger creatures some kind of modified Whirlwind attack option would take care of their reach and size of their weapons and limbs.

Yes, Medium (normal) sized humanoids could do the same thing but only against smaller targets... like bottle sized humanoids. :smallamused:

Now, a Colossal humanoid shouldn't be able to hit multiple Colossal targets with one swing without Feats, even though he should be able to hit multiple Medium targets without Feats. See what I mean?

[blacksabre]

just an fyi..

Weapons don't necessarily match the scale of Creature sizes..


Weapons, especially hammers increase dramatically in Wieght as they get larger...the denisty of the metal per volume would quckily reach max carrying weight..

How much do you think a 1'x1'x1' block of steel wieghs?

think tons....

[Ashtagon]

...denisty of the metal per volume would quckily reach max carrying weight..

Density. I don't think it means what you think it means.


How much do you think a 1'x1'x1' block of steel wieghs?

think tons....

A one-foot cube would weigh about hmmm... 220 kg. Triple that for Osmium, the densest material known to man that does not involve being at the heart of a star or similar gravitational collapse.

Not tons by a long stretch.

[Raimun]

So what if the hammer weights tons? That is, if the guy carrying it weights hundreds of tons, ie. he's Colossal.

[Spiryt]

So what if the hammer weights tons? That is, if the guy carrying it weights hundreds of tons, ie. he's Colossal.

Well, original question was about Huge creature though.

If we're getting into Colossal territory, it would indeed make sense.

[Raimun]

Well, original question was about Huge creature though.

If we're getting into Colossal territory, it would indeed make sense.

Ok, I guess I should have been more elaborate. My point is that at certain point, the difference in creature size is so huge the combat rules start to not make sense. That's mainly because the rules seem to assume combatants are roughly the same size.

[mattie_p]

It has to do with the Square-Cube Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law). Basically, volume (and thus weight) increases far faster when items are expanded than the surface area, and tremendously faster than any single dimensional increase (assuming all dimensions are expanded proportionally).


Thus, if a 6' human male weighs 200 pounds, a proportionally scaled 12' (humanoid) male would weigh 8 times as much (2 cubed) or 1600 pounds. It is why larger real life creatures either have 4 legs (think horse or elephant) or forgoe the use of legs altogether (whales).

The square-cube law basically forbids the existence of titans as two-legged walking creatures 25' tall, 14,000 pound creatures (from the SRD, my math shows titans should weigh about 500 pounds more, so we're close enough).

An average adult male has feet surface area of about 100 square cm, or 15.5 square inches, thus applying an average pressure to the soles of their feet of 12.9 psi (pounds per square inch). Proportionally, a titan would have feet surface area of about 269 square inches (25/6 squared, times 15.5), for a soles of the feet psi of 52. Basically 4 times more pressure.

Imagine walking under 4 gravities. That is what titans must do, all the time. This would be practically impossible under physics as we know it, but then again D&D does not use our physics. Dragons wouldn't be able to fly either (not enough wing area) - so it must be magic.

You can apply similar rationale to their weapons, and find that, on average, weapons would appear to weigh 4 times as much to a titan as they do to us. He could still swing it, but it would be a lot harder to move around, and thus

TLDR: Real world physics are not D&D physics, don't read too much into it, or think too hard about it.

[blacksabre]

Density. I don't think it means what you think it means.



A one-foot cube would weigh about hmmm... 220 kg. Triple that for Osmium, the densest material known to man that does not involve being at the heart of a star or similar gravitational collapse.

Not tons by a long stretch.

A 1x1x1 cube of steel wighs 490LBs
7.85 grams per cubic centimeter is the average density of steel.
1foot =30.48 cm
30.48 x 30.48 x 30.48 x 7.85 =222287 grams =490 lbs..give or take

The example previous post was talking a 10 foot cube..
304.8 x 304.8 x 304.8 x 7.85 = 222287245grams = 245 tons

[Ashtagon]

The example previous post was talking a 10 foot cube..

No. The example of the previous post was talking about...


How much do you think a 1'x1'x1' block of steel wieghs?

A one foot cube. Unless traditional notations have changed, « 1' » means one foot exactly, and « 10' » would have meant ten feet exactly.

[Morph Bark]

Is everyone forgetting that Large weapons weigh double that of Medium ones, rather than octuple? Following that, Colossal weapons only weigh sixteen times as much as Medium weapons, so they obviously aren't sixteen times as big in every dimension.

[Andorax]

Hmm...needs more War Hulk.

[nedz]

Hmm...needs more War Hulk.

Exactly, MinH's War Hulk has class features that allow them to jhit multiple squares. They do have an anoyying class feature called "No Time to Think" however, which makes this class all be useless for anyone with a brain.

[nedz]

Hmm...needs more War Hulk.

Exactly, MinH's War Hulk has class features that allow them to hit multiple squares. They do have an annoying class feature called "No Time to Think" however, which makes this class all but useless for anyone with a brain.

Ed: sp

[hymer]

Angmar the Witch King

The Witch-king of Angmar, I believe you're referring to there. Angmar was the land he founded some 1700 years before the War of the Ring. His name is now not recalled as a rule - loss of identity is a theme when one falls under the shadow and becomes invisible permanently.

[Jeraa]

Even if a colossal weapon would/should affect multiple squares, thats a level of detail not supported by the rules. And if you are bothered by that, then you should also be bothered by:

A Titan and a Smurf both have the same maximum range with throwing weapons - 5 increments. Thats usually a maximum of 50 feet. (100x the Smurfs body height, but only 2x the Titans height)

A Strength 1000 creature throws an object the exact same distance as a Strength 1 creature.

A Titan and a Smurf both fire their longbows out to the exact same range.

A Human and a Halfling both have the exact same reach with a weapon, despite one of the weapons (and its wielder) being half the size of the other.

The weapons rules are far from realistic, but they are effective. They work just fine, as long as you don't try to model reality with them.

[Spiryt]

A Titan and a Smurf both have the same maximum range with throwing weapons - 5 increments. Thats usually a maximum of 50 feet. (100x the Smurfs body height, but only 2x the Titans height)

A Strength 1000 creature throws an object the exact same distance as a Strength 1 creature.

A Titan and a Smurf both fire their longbows out to the exact same range.



Well, those actually make minimal amount of sense -after all, range of projectile depends mainly on velocity, and it in fact would have every reason to be lower in case of such monstrous masses of limbs - both giants limbs, and huge bow limbs.

So projectiles would have been really massive, but wouldn't travel that much further. :smallwink:

[nedz]

Colossal War-Hulks don't effect any more squares than Large ones, even though they are three size catagories bigger.

[Keneth]

so we can assume that something's rather off with D&D scalling, lol. Obviously, technically speaking, land creatures of gargantuan size or larger shouldn't even be able to exist because they wouldn't be able to move around. I'm not talking Dex decrease from size, I'm talking full on collapse because their body structure can't support their weight. The largest land creatures that ever existed on our planet, such as diplodocids were extremely stocky and barely capable of any movement in their body. The whole sizing problem is ignored in fantasy settings because it makes for good content, and there's always the usual excuse "it's magic, I ain't gotta explain ****", however the problem is very real and nature hasn't been able to solve in a few billion years. Hence there's no dragons flying around, even the poor ostrich can't pull it off and he's much smaller, and the biggest animal we've got to show for is the elephant which aren't exactly running any horse jumping courses (the whale doesn't count since they live in water).

So much for scaling mechanics in D&D. :smallwink: