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View Full Version : [3.5] Rogue as Primary Spellcaster for a party?



Adamantrue
2012-04-17, 11:32 AM
Our current game is winding down (or fizzling out, depending on your point of view), and we've been discussing options for a new one. A lot of us have actually expressed an interest in playing a more mundane-centric game, where Spellcasting as most D&D games think of it is a rare, ancient, and lost knowledge.

One of the main problems brought up by one of my players is that Magic Items are a very important part of the game, especially including PC Item Creation. His main point was as to where all the Magic Item come from, and the suspension of disbelief involved by making them as frequent as they normally are in a world without spellcasters. He also specifically noted that the party wouldn't have any direct control without even a Warlock or spellcasting Paladin (yeah, the premise nerfs Paladins).

Me and a buddy were talking about it last night, and I was trying to sell him on the idea of using a Rogue for the role of a "Wizard" (we've had playful debates about whether Gandalf was a Rogue or a Wizard). He asked if there was any way to let them create Magic Items, to really capitalize on UMD, and it got my mind going...

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The premise is that there is NO spellcasting available in the game (and Warlocks are not an option either). You can take levels in a spellcasting class if you wish, but you do not gain any spell slots. We're working on a ToB modification for Rangers and Paladins, which would also disallow ToB Classes.

There are Incantations that mimic some key spells available, able to be performed by some organizations (for example, some Churches can perform minor miracles such as a Resurrection). It is fairly rare, however, a secret knowledge in remote locations.

Beings referred to as Mages or Wizards are in actuality the sagely Esoteric Rogues, having studied in greater detail the world around them. They halve their Sneak Attack progression (+1d6 starting at 3rd level, topping off at +5d6 at 19th), and in exchange gain the following: Class Skills: Esoteric Rogues add all Knowledge skills, as well as Spellcraft, to their Class Skill List.
Detect Magic (Su): Starting at 1st level, an Esoteric Rogue may use Detect Magic, as the spell, at will.
Special Ability Name Here: An Esoteric Rogue may select Imbue Item (as the Warlock Class Feature) as one of his Special Abilities at 10th, 13th, 16th, or 19th. Once he selects this ability, he qualifies for Item Creation Feats as a spellcaster equal to his Class Level.
In addition, he gains Scribe Scroll as a bonus Feat. In game, an Esoteric Rogue would focus on Magic Items & UMD, with a likely dependency on Scrolls and low-charge Wands in the early game. Their normal abilities would be dressed up verbally, with Hide being referred to as Invisibility, Diplomacy checks as Charms, etc.

But really, this is all concept. I'm not really sure how this would work out in the long run. Do these changes overpower the Rogue, or underpower...or is it comparable? Are there other changes or tweaks needed to make this work?

mcv
2012-04-17, 12:03 PM
If you want a game with little or no magic, why are you so eager to have magic in it?

Adamantrue
2012-04-17, 12:08 PM
If you want a game with little or no magic, why are you so eager to have magic in it?
One of the main problems brought up by one of my players is that Magic Items are a very important part of the game, especially including PC Item Creation. His main point was as to where all the Magic Item come from, and the suspension of disbelief involved by making them as frequent as they normally are in a world without spellcasters. He also specifically noted that the party wouldn't have any direct control without even a Warlock or spellcasting Paladin (yeah, the premise nerfs Paladins). I'd actually be interesting giving a NO MAGIC game a shot, but I doubt anyone else would find that entertaining, and game balance would be awfully wonky (for lack of a better term).

ericgrau
2012-04-17, 12:56 PM
Whatever you do to keep full magic items even after full spellcasters are gone it should work fine. If your semi-caster can also handle utility things like seeing invisibility and flight (e.g., via scrolls or potions) then that's a bonus. Otherwise you have to watch out for monsters that use these when eliminating casters. A lot of low magic systems ditch magic items too which only royally screws the non-casters. Deal with that and the oddball monsters and you should be fine.

mcv
2012-04-17, 02:14 PM
One of the main problems brought up by one of my players is that Magic Items are a very important part of the game, especially including PC Item Creation. His main point was as to where all the Magic Item come from, and the suspension of disbelief involved by making them as frequent as they normally are in a world without spellcasters. He also specifically noted that the party wouldn't have any direct control without even a Warlock or spellcasting Paladin (yeah, the premise nerfs Paladins).

Yeah, but you realize that's not a reason, don't you? It's saying: I'd like a game without magic, but it's not really D&D without magic, so I'm going to have magic anyway. At which point there is really nothing much to talk about.

PC item creation is hardly a vital part of the game, especially in comparison to spellcasting. Doing away with spellcasting is the big thing. Everything else is trivial by comparison. Having no spellcasters but having non-spellcasters create magic items seems very weird to me. On the other hand, a game with no spellcasters and only existing, ancient and very rare magic items would be quite interesting.

And of course you're going to have to change the encounters if you're going to ban the most powerful classes. Without magic, the game is going to be a lot more mundane, with a lower power level, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. You can have very exciting games that way. So why would you make it harder by banning magic and then including it anyway? Just leave it out!

The only real problem is the lack of magical healing. That's going to have an enormous impact on the game. Two different ways to deal with that are:

let the players deal with it. They're going to have to be very careful, as damage will really hurt now.
powerful magic may be rare, but there may still be alchemists that make healing potions. They might even be cheap. Or not.



I'd actually be interesting giving a NO MAGIC game a shot, but I doubt anyone else would find that entertaining, and game balance would be awfully wonky (for lack of a better term).
I don't see why game balance would be wonky. Spellcasters tend to be far more powerful than mundane classes. Limiting the game to just mundane classes will do a lot to fix balance. You only need to remember to also tone the opposition down quite a bit.

I'd certainly be interested in a game like that.

nedz
2012-04-17, 04:08 PM
I'd actually be interesting giving a NO MAGIC game a shot, but I doubt anyone else would find that entertaining, and game balance would be awfully wonky (for lack of a better term).

The opposite of this, it would be a lot more balanced. Basically you would be playing a modern d20 Chainmail. It might be so balanced as to be dull in fact, but YMMV.

Golden Ladybug
2012-04-18, 06:17 AM
Nope; shouldn't be a problem at all. UMD might not be as great as an actual Caster, but it'll serve your purposes. So, yes, stripping out the full casters and using things like your homebrew Rogue variant (and perhaps Adepts?) should allow you to make this happen.


I don't see why game balance would be wonky. Spellcasters tend to be far more powerful than mundane classes. Limiting the game to just mundane classes will do a lot to fix balance. You only need to remember to also tone the opposition down quite a bit.

I'd certainly be interested in a game like that.

I wouldn't :smallsmile:

dsmiles
2012-04-18, 06:29 AM
I'd actually be interesting giving a NO MAGIC game a shot, but I doubt anyone else would find that entertaining, and game balance would be awfully wonky (for lack of a better term).My advice: Don't use D&D. Find another system that can emulate a low-to-no-magic world better. D&D just doesn't do low-magic well. Dungeon World, Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard, FATE, Fudge, and RISUS can all emulate a low-magic setting better.

I'm not saying D&D isn't a good game, it's just not good at this.

ericgrau
2012-04-18, 12:08 PM
Well no magic works horribly in D&D, but if you keep full magic items like the OP wants and keep fly/anti-invis/anti-teleport/etc. spells or remove monsters that require utility spells to beat, then it could work.