[3.5] Help, my party dies too much!

[rmg22893]

I am a level 15 druid in a party of 6 PCs including myself. I am currently the highest level character by one level. The DM seems to have accepted that I am more or less unkillable, and has not really damaged me with anything for the last few sessions (I've literally taken 0 HP damage over the last 3 sessions or so). But the rest of my party is getting massacred regularly. We got hit by a magical trap that more or less wrecked the entire party. Our rogue and sorcerer died outright, and everyone else except me was nearly dead (I was immune to the trap.)

What can I do to help keep them alive? I haven't taken a feat for level 15 yet, and am considering taking either Touch of Healing (CC) or Magic of the Land (RotW) to supplement any healing that I do, since I can't think of any other decent feats.

[hymer]

If they get killed outright by a trap, healing isn't going to save them - there isn't time.
Could be your GM is aiming at challenging you and ending up killing the less optimized people.
HP damage is, of course, just one way to kill people anyway. If you're up against traps that do so much damage that multiple characters die instantly, there's something amiss. You'd need to be far more specific for a diagnosis there.

[Namfuak]

If your problem is traps, there are two surefire ways to solve it:

1. Copious application of followers from the leadership feat.
2. Copious application of a bag of tricks.

As Xykon said, "Sacrificing minions [or small, defenseless animals]: is there any problem it can't solve?"

[rmg22893]

If they get killed outright by a trap, healing isn't going to save them - there isn't time.
Could be your GM is aiming at challenging you and ending up killing the less optimized people.
HP damage is, of course, just one way to kill people anyway. If you're up against traps that do so much damage that multiple characters die instantly, there's something amiss. You'd need to be far more specific for a diagnosis there.

We're running a gauntlet of sorts in the Abyss that, provided we finish it alive and give the audience a good show, will free an important NPC from slavery into our custody. We walked into a room, and there were glyphs on the ceiling. The DM obviously wanted us to read them, so our dwarf monk read them, and we were blasted for 20d6 points of cold damage, reflex for half. This instantly KO'd the rogue and sorcerer, and nearly killed everyone else except for me (I have immunity to all five energy types). I revived the Rogue using a Last Breath that I thankfully had prepped, and we moved on, but significantly damaged.

[Mari01]

This really sounds like he's trying to do things to challenge you, and everyone else just cant keep up. Are you optimizing more so than the rest of your party?

[rmg22893]

This really sounds like he's trying to do things to challenge you, and everyone else just cant keep up. Are you optimizing more so than the rest of your party?

I'm not really trying to optimize at all, no. I'm just doing everything in my power to keep myself alive since I am the only source of healing and resurrection that we have, barring a half-celestial cleric cohort that has been either absent or incapacitated for the majority of the campaign, this portion included.

[Fouredged Sword]

Your DM is mean. Every attempt to keep your party alive will fail if the dm sets out to kill people.

Advice...

Prepare lots and lots of last breaths.

[Srasy]

Hes a Druid he is already optimized :P
Just use summons imo for traps maybe the elemental summon reserve spell feat...

At lvl 15 I think you should take frozen wildshape (or whatever its called in frostburn) and turn into a cryohydra...

[rmg22893]

Your DM is mean. Every attempt to keep your party alive will fail if the dm sets out to kill people.

Advice...

Prepare lots and lots of last breaths.

I wouldn't say he's "mean". He's pragmatic. There are several rooms in the gauntlet; each contains a trap or an encounter. Before each room, we roll a d20, and that determines the CR of the room. We rolled like a 17 for that room, I believe. Which should be doable with 6 level 13-15 characters.

[DarthCyberWolf]

we were blasted for 20d6 points of cold damage, reflex for half. This instantly KO'd the rogue

This is a problem. Right here.

[rmg22893]

This is a problem. Right here.

Yeah...he's new to D&D, and I don't think he took Improved Evasion. He failed his save and went down like a sack of bricks.

[Oscredwin]

A straight classes level 14 rogue should have a reflex save of +18[9(base)+6(dex)+3(resistance bonus)]. This should pass on a 2. This assumes a 16 starting dex (after racials) which gets level boosts, a +4 item, and a cloak of resistance +3. That's very low op. Any multiclass (to a good reflex class/PRC), dex race, and better items would help that save.

The rogue should have passed the save.

[rmg22893]

A straight classes level 14 rogue should have a reflex save of +18[9(base)+6(dex)+3(resistance bonus)]. This should pass on a 2. This assumes a 16 starting dex (after racials) which gets level boosts, a +4 item, and a cloak of resistance +3. That's very low op. Any multiclass (to a good reflex class/PRC), dex race, and better items would help that save.

The rogue should have passed the save.

He hasn't updated his online character sheet in awhile, so I don't know what his Reflex save is right now, but at level 10, it was only +12. So I don't know what to say lol.

EDIT: OH, I remember now. The save was Fortitude, not Reflex. That's why.

[Dimers]

I opine that you being immune to all forms of energy damage is what's killing your party. You're definitely on a different level of optimization from them, as well as a different tier.

Also, your DM doesn't seem to be accounting for the party's strengths and weaknesses. For example, it would have been simple for him/her to change the 20d6 cold with a Fort save into 20d6 slashing with a Reflex save, benefitting the monk and rogue while bypassing your auto-immunity, thus balancing the challenge more within the party. Randomization is no way to treat a high-level game.

If you want more hp healing power, try the feat Augment Healing in Complete Divine (requires 4 ranks of Heal skill). Prepping lots of last breaths is indeed a solid idea. And also consider a few rejuvenation cocoons; they heal the target lots while making it hard for enemies to pick on them, meaning they'll pick on their PROPER target instead: your own nigh-unkillable self.

[rmg22893]

I opine that you being immune to all forms of energy damage is what's killing your party. You're definitely on a different level of optimization from them, as well as a different tier.

Also, your DM doesn't seem to be accounting for the party's strengths and weaknesses. For example, it would have been simple for him/her to change the 20d6 cold with a Fort save into 20d6 slashing with a Reflex save, benefitting the monk and rogue while bypassing your auto-immunity, thus balancing the challenge more within the party. Randomization is no way to treat a high-level game.

If you want more hp healing power, try the feat Augment Healing in Complete Divine (requires 4 ranks of Heal skill). Prepping lots of last breaths is indeed a solid idea. And also consider a few rejuvenation cocoons; they heal the target lots while making it hard for enemies to pick on them, meaning they'll pick on their PROPER target instead: your own nigh-unkillable self.

Doesn't Magic of the Land do the exact same thing as Augment Healing, but on all spells cast on allies, as long as you have an Acorn of Far Travel with you or are in a natural setting? I make sure to have an Acorn of Far Travel on me whenever I go to weird places, just in case. I agree that my level of optimization is far beyond that of the rest of the party, but there's not much I can do about that. I'm not going to purposefully put myself in harm's way :P

The sad thing is that even if it was 20d6 slashing and I failed my reflex save and it dealt maximized damage, I wouldn't have died.

[Oscredwin]

A rogue that only has a reflex of +12 at level 10 has no business being in the same party as you. (+7 base + 5 dex?). It's very likely that he doesn't have any save boosting going on. His fort save was likely +4(base)+1(con)=+5. He dies to that trap three times out of four.

DC 20 fort save for 70 (avg) damage is going to kill rogues who don't have a con of 14 fairly often, and it will kill d4 classes who don't have any buffs and a con of under 16.

Can you spend more of your buffing spells making the rest of the party invulnerable to energy damage too? Also, you're in a demon gauntlet, treat it like the tomb of horrors. Search everything before you interact with it.

[nedz]

It sounds like you have an extreamly unbalanced party, which is not suprising.

Your DM has it tough: if he challanges you, everyone else dies.

[Randomguy]

Buff your party. You can afford to prepare mass energy resistance a few times for them. Or energy immunity.

Look up a "god wizard" guide. You might not be a wizard, but it's your job to prevent damage.

Introduce your party members to the world of internet optimization and hope they have enough moderation not to come back with pun pun.

[danzibr]

Buff your party. You can afford to prepare mass energy resistance a few times for them. Or energy immunity.

Look up a "god wizard" guide. You might not be a wizard, but it's your job to prevent damage.

Introduce your party members to the world of internet optimization and hope they have enough moderation not to come back with pun pun.Actually I think it's a great idea to bring the rest of your players up to your level (so to speak). Optimization is really just about knowing everything that's available. Then the Internet is great for that. I mean I'm assuming they're not going to make the wish and the word or anything.

Alternatively the dm can restrict the material to just the srd or something. Even then your companions would still need help.

[Dimers]

Doesn't Magic of the Land do the exact same thing as Augment Healing, but on all spells cast on allies, as long as you have an Acorn of Far Travel with you or are in a natural setting? I make sure to have an Acorn of Far Travel on me whenever I go to weird places, just in case. I agree that my level of optimization is far beyond that of the rest of the party, but there's not much I can do about that. I'm not going to purposefully put myself in harm's way :P

The sad thing is that even if it was 20d6 slashing and I failed my reflex save and it dealt maximized damage, I wouldn't have died.

Dude. You're all but bragging here. You are the problem in this party's balance. Your DM *can* kill the character, but basically either by fiat or by TPK, so I now consider it out of his/her hands. Only you get to fix this problem. Purposefully put yourself in harm's way, big guy, because otherwise the rest of your party will continue to Die Too Much (tm). I'm glad you want to help everybody, but I'm telling you straight up, the way to do it is to stop being a demigod.

[nedz]

[3.5] is balanced-ish to about 6th level, from there on up it becomes increasingly unbalanced. Druids are near the top of this tree most of the way through, though a competantly played Wizard should overtake you about now.

Retire your character, and play something else - or the campaign is over.

Its not your fault, far from it, its the system.:smallamused:

[Greyfeld85]

[3.5] is balanced-ish to about 6th level, from there on up it becomes increasingly unbalanced. Druids are near the top of this tree most of the way through, though a competantly played Wizard should overtake you about now.

Retire your character, and play something else - or the campaign is over.

Its not your fault, far from it, its the system.:smallamused:

While the system does have a lot of issues with balance, the player still has plenty of wiggle room to raise or lower the power of any given character. Druids, while ridiculously powerful in even moderately capable hands, can easily be de-optimized so that they're brought down to the level of some of the other classes. And frankly, a lot of that simply involves not purposely playing like a demigod.

[Randomguy]

Oh, here's a thought: Take a crafting feat, probably craft wondrous item, and just craft stuff for the party. You bring yourself closer to their level and make all of them stronger at the same time.

If you don't have time to craft, see if you can beget a bogun and have him craft in a portable hole while you adventure.

[Twilightwyrm]

Like has been suggested here quite a few times, prepare lots of Last Breath Spells. And more to the point, if you somehow are immune to all energy types, share some of whatever is doing that for you with your party. Also, help them out in terms of making their characters survivable.
But more to the point, since you are apparently nigh unkillable, (and you are a druid, so probably with good reason) you and your party should be adopting the logical method for approaching dangerous situations: putting you first in the line of fire every single time, meaning you are going to be the tank in the fight even as you do all the normal healing, etc. After all, when assaulting a infantry line, a wise military commander will place their tank divisions to give the infantry cover. So if you are indeed the invincible guy you claim, your place is blocking/soaking up as much damage/attacks as possible.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Energy Immunity is a range (touch) spell. Instead of casting it on yourself 5 times, cast it on yourself and four of your party members once. You can either use all of them to negate the same element (meaning that your party basically doesn't have to worry about that element), or use them for a different element for each player (meaning that your party has a "toolbox" of players with elemental immunities; fire-breathing dragon? Send the Monk in; he has fire immunity).

Or, better yet, use Mass Resist Energy (a 3rd-level spell) five times, so that your party has resistance to energy 30 against five elements. Resistance will negate outright the first 8 damage dice and most of the ninth, on an average roll (granting that dice rolls tend toward averages the more dice you roll), double that amount on an actual successful save. Congratulations - you've made your whole party almost as effective at not dying from energy damage as you are, using a tiny fraction of your resources.

Now, you can use your five 6th-level spell slots (you obviously have five, if you're using Energy Immunity five times, which is the "low-op" way to be immune to all energy types) on Superior Resistance on yourself and four buddies, granting your entire party an effective +6 to all saves with a 24-hour duration, so they should be making their saves (even a single-classed character with a 10 on their ability score has a +11 on their weak save at that point, and that's assuming nothing is done to augment any of their saves in anyway). If your Rogue is single-classed 15 (or only progressed weak Fort classes), he would have had an effective Fort save of 11+his CON mod, which is much less terrible than it probably is now. His Reflex save would be 15+his DEX mod, which means he's saving against everything that offers a Reflex save (and a cold burst spell should have offered a Reflex save. With Superior Resistance, all your Monk's base saves become 15+relevant ability score, which means that he succeeds a save against a 5th-level spell assuming his roll is higher than the spellcasting score minus his relevant ability score (and he's a PC, so if he's not naked, increasing relevant ability scores should have happened by now, and if he is naked, then Vow of Poverty would have given him three ability score bonuses by now). He's now negating all damage with Reflex saves, resisting all effects with Fort saves, and if he's a Monk (as you say he is), maybe his WIS is good enough to resist being turned against the party and flailing helplessly against your obviously-over-180 Hit Point value.

So yeah, I do believe that you're unoptimized, because you're playing damage control instead of damage prevention. The above strategy should prevent the first 15 dice of damage from a spell 90% of the time, assuming your party isn't dumping CON and DEX and your DM isn't fudging the numbers to adjust for the new saves (and if he's read the DMG, he'll know that this is called "preempting the character's abilities", and is under the "Bad Structure" section on page 46). The thing is, it sounds like the DM is playing fairly by-the-book on these things (the random CR irks me; what if you roll a CR 3 encounter? Bo-ring), so the onus is on you to change this.

The strategy I've outlined is less optimized than the average Druid could pull off, and it is still much better optimized than what you've got now (which appears to be stacking half your spell list on self-buffs and leaving your party out dry), because optimization isn't about outrunning the slowest party member; it's about making sure nobody gets caught to begin with.

[rmg22893]

In regards to the over-use of my spell slots for self-buffing:

Right now, for personal buffs each day, I am using these slots:

6th level: 2
5th level: 1
4th level: 2
3rd level: 3
2nd level: 1

These spell slots in total give me immunity to three elements (other two are achieved through silver dragon wild shape), +6 to all my saves, crit and sneak attack immunity, blindsight, water breathing, swim speed, a couple of minor abilities and Greater Luminous Armor and all its benefits. All the rest of my spells are party-oriented, being mostly heals, battlefield control spells, a couple of blasts, a GMF for the party monk, and some utility/travel spells.

The reason I buff myself so extensively is because if I die, the party is pretty much screwed. Nobody else has any way to heal or resurrect anyone.

[danzibr]

The reason I buff myself so extensively is because if I die, the party is pretty much screwed. Nobody else has any way to heal or resurrect anyone.
That is a good point. I think Lonely Tylenol nailed it, though. If you want to fix your party dying too much and you don't what I suggested earlier, buffing them will go a long ways. I mean, judging by Lonely Tylenol's post, it will exactly solve your problem (though I still suggest teaching them a bit of optimization).

[rmg22893]

That is a good point. I think Lonely Tylenol nailed it, though. If you want to fix your party dying too much and you don't what I suggested earlier, buffing them will go a long ways. I mean, judging by Lonely Tylenol's post, it will exactly solve your problem (though I still suggest teaching them a bit of optimization).

The thing is that we have three spellcasters, and I am the only one who does any sort of team buffing. So my resources are stretched fairly thin.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The thing is that we have three spellcasters, and I am the only one who does any sort of team buffing. So my resources are stretched fairly thin.

It also sounds like you know better than they do, and the Sorcerer's capacity is obviously limited in this regard anyway, since a Sorcerer's list is fixed and limited. I don't know what your other caster is; you only mentioned a Sorcerer, a Rogue and a Monk.

If you have a general idea of what to prepare against, you can prepare your spells accordingly - which is more than the Sorcerer has going for him. There's a reason that we talk about prepared casters as being the best at buffing, and it's because their lists are modular - none more so than the Druid and Cleric, who automatically know their whole list.

I don't really care to address the issue too much of whether or not you have too many self-buffs; the point is, you could optimize instead toward party buffs that also affect you, in a way that could actually benefit you more. What are your saves in Wild Shape? Energy immunity is not worth three to four extra spell levels if the damage you take is effectively 0 after saves and energy resistance.

[ericgrau]

At level 14 70 damage shouldn't have killed them off. Even a con 14 sorcerer should have almost that much, and the rogue more than that. Have them pick up +4 con items. The sorcerer can also pick up false life next time he swaps spells, and keep it up 24 hours. The ~15 hp is well worth it. If he has empower, then empower it for ~22 hp. Or spell compendium might have a better 4th level version.

Consider mass energy resistance if you expect a certain type of energy. Mass healing spells are also a great deal if multiple allies get hurt at once. Unlike single target healing the amount of healing per round is better than what you could prevent by taking down an attacker.

Other ways to prevent damage include giving the party a staggered formation so traps, breath weapons, area spells, etc. don't hit the whole party. As a druid you get a lot of battlefield control spells so you can divide foes and thus limit the incoming damage.

[Randomguy]

Make sure you get the most out of every spell slot. For example, summoning a unicorn with SNA 4 to dish out healing spell-like abilities heals around twice as much as using that same spell slot to cast Cure Serious Wounds. Same with using SNA 5 to summon more than one unicorn, compared to casting a higher level cure spell.

Stop prebuffing for water breathing and a swim speed. You've got wildshape for that, and it's not very likely to come up most days. And doesn't your silver dragon form give you blindsense anyway?

Get the sorcerer to pick up at least one buff spell next level. Your group desperately needs it. Preferably something that boosts saving throws or energy resistance.

[rmg22893]

Make sure you get the most out of every spell slot. For example, summoning a unicorn with SNA 4 to dish out healing spell-like abilities heals around twice as much as using that same spell slot to cast Cure Serious Wounds. Same with using SNA 5 to summon more than one unicorn, compared to casting a higher level cure spell.

Stop prebuffing for water breathing and a swim speed. You've got wildshape for that, and it's not very likely to come up most days. And doesn't your silver dragon form give you blindsense anyway?

Get the sorcerer to pick up at least one buff spell next level. Your group desperately needs it. Preferably something that boosts saving throws or energy resistance.

The water breathing and swim speed are just side-effects from the Heart of Water/Fire/Earth/Air in order to give me crit immunity. Yes, I have blindsense, but I figured why not have blindsight as well.


At level 14 70 damage shouldn't have killed them off. Even a con 14 sorcerer should have almost that much, and the rogue more than that. Have them pick up +4 con items. The sorcerer can also pick up false life next time he swaps spells, and keep it up 24 hours. The ~15 hp is well worth it. If he has empower, then empower it for ~22 hp. Or spell compendium might have a better 4th level version.

Consider mass energy resistance if you expect a certain type of energy. Mass healing spells are also a great deal if multiple allies get hurt at once. Unlike single target healing the amount of healing per round is better than what you could prevent by taking down an attacker.

Other ways to prevent damage include giving the party a staggered formation so traps, breath weapons, area spells, etc. don't hit the whole party. As a druid you get a lot of battlefield control spells so you can divide foes and thus limit the incoming damage.

We did 28 point buy for stats, and I don't think any of them put any significant investment into constitution. The trap in question occurred in an extremely confined space, so there was no way of preventing the damage, really. It was a 10 foot wide hallway, and a 20x20 room where the trap was located. The trap had a radius of 40 feet.


It also sounds like you know better than they do, and the Sorcerer's capacity is obviously limited in this regard anyway, since a Sorcerer's list is fixed and limited. I don't know what your other caster is; you only mentioned a Sorcerer, a Rogue and a Monk.

If you have a general idea of what to prepare against, you can prepare your spells accordingly - which is more than the Sorcerer has going for him. There's a reason that we talk about prepared casters as being the best at buffing, and it's because their lists are modular - none more so than the Druid and Cleric, who automatically know their whole list.

I don't really care to address the issue too much of whether or not you have too many self-buffs; the point is, you could optimize instead toward party buffs that also affect you, in a way that could actually benefit you more. What are your saves in Wild Shape? Energy immunity is not worth three to four extra spell levels if the damage you take is effectively 0 after saves and energy resistance.

My saves in Silver Dragon form would be... +17 Fort, +11 Reflex, +22 Will, including a +6 bonus from Superior Resistance.

Our other caster is a Wizard/Incantatar/Fatespinner who does nothing but blast things. Our sorcerer is an ice-focused caster who is going into Elemental Savant.

[ericgrau]

Ah then one more thing on top of boosting HP and buffs: Have the tank scout ahead in every room. Whenever the rogue searches anything, everyone should clear out and stand back again. Then the rogue leaves, then the tank re-enters and opens whatever it is.

[holywhippet]

The wizard and sorcerer should consider investing in these spells: contingency and resilient sphere. Have them set up a contingency each day that if they are about to take enough damage to kill or disable them the resilient sphere kicks in. You could also substitute the latter for a number of other spells.

Your party should also consider the benefit of following at a distance. Let either the monk or the rogue lead the way while you follow them at enough distance that AoE damage won't hit you.

[Lonely Tylenol]

My saves in Silver Dragon form would be... +17 Fort, +11 Reflex, +22 Will, including a +6 bonus from Superior Resistance.

Ouch. OK, yeah, I forgot you'd be stuck with the Silver Dragon's poor DEX stat in Wild Shape. Bummer.

You do have the CON to tough it out, though... But that's not saying much. I guess Protection from Energy is still better unless your DM is throwing out great green gobs of acid all the time, every time.


Our other caster is a Wizard/Incantatar/Fatespinner who does nothing but blast things. Our sorcerer is an ice-focused caster who is going into Elemental Savant.

Yeah, I'd have a talk with him then. I played a Wizard/Incantatar blaster (at lower levels!) and I would spend about a quarter of my spells buffing my party, because even as a blaster I knew the importance of having a big guy or three that couldn't be killed standing in the way of the thing I wanted to blow up. It should be even easier for him than for you, because he can Spellcraft his way out of level adjustment (I accomplished the arduous task of buffing my party by beating the Spellcraft DCs for Chained Spell on my own buff routine, which basically just made my own buff routine a party buff routine). Unless he banned any two of Abjuration, Conjuration and Transmutation, he has no excuse--and if he did, then how did he get to level 15?!

[Doorhandle]

This may be a poor hunch, but I think you are optimising yourself without realising. Let your G.M look over your character and what buffs he uses, and maybe discuss your fears with him.

On a related note, how the hell are you getting immunity to all energy types?

[Malachei]

Well, the obvious thing to do, IMO, is to talk to your DM.

Casually, maybe before or after a game session, and bring it up. Of course, don't expect the DM to give information he considers spoilers, but the general issue of the campaign's lethality is best discussed first, before you start further optimizing (yourself or others).

The DM should also be unhappy about the number of deaths, or at least I would, and many DMs I know would. Even if resurrection is commonplace in a game, if a character dies over an over again, that leaves the player dissatisfied. It is a signal that he has not succeeded. And I think the feeling of meeting a challenge and succeeding as among the key drivers why we play D&D.

So yes, the DM should care about this. And I also think that if the DM agrees this is an issue, he should be the one helping the others improve their characters (if he does not want to tone down the threat level), not you (unless he asks you to). Otherwise, you're not only the most powerful character, but also the co-DM, which is even worse.

[Killer Angel]

As Xykon said, "Sacrificing minions [or small, defenseless animals]: is there any problem it can't solve?"

Sacrificing defenseless animals could cause the druid to fall. :smallamused:

mmm... this of course would bring balance to the party, eliminating the most powerful character. Yeah, on a second thought, the idea got some merit. :smalltongue:

[Cor1]

Find a way to polymorph the other party members into Grafts, graft them to you, cast your personal buffs, have the party change back into themselves (or a group of dragons). The ex-Grafts all share the effects of the spells.

That's a method Team Solars uses.

[rmg22893]

This may be a poor hunch, but I think you are optimising yourself without realising. Let your G.M look over your character and what buffs he uses, and maybe discuss your fears with him.

On a related note, how the hell are you getting immunity to all energy types?

He has looked over my character; we have online character sheets posted to Facebook, which allows anyone in the group to look at our characters whenever they'd like.

On odd days, I cast an extended Energy Immunity (fire) and an extended Energy Immunity (electricity). On even days, I cast extended Energy Immunity (sonic) and extended Superior Resistance, all using a standard Rod of Extend. Rinse and repeat. The other two energy immunities are achieved through silver dragon form.

[nedz]

OK, maybe you should focus on keeping your party alive more than self preservation, which seems to have been your original question ?

After all, should your DM discover Greater Dispell Magic - your strategy will have failed anyway.

Its a shame that the rest of the party don't seem to be as party minded, they're just playing their characters I guess ?
Why did they feel the need to set off a trap which would kill half the party anyway ? This is just plain dumb.

Bears Endurance, Mass is a level 6 spell which would add up to 30 HP.
Resist Energy, Mass is only 3rd - but predicting thh nature of traps is hard, which is why the rogue goes first (after you buff him) and disarmes them.

[Bahamut Omega]

We're running a gauntlet of sorts in the Abyss that, provided we finish it alive and give the audience a good show, will free an important NPC from slavery into our custody. We walked into a room, and there were glyphs on the ceiling. The DM obviously wanted us to read them, so our dwarf monk read them, and we were blasted for 20d6 points of cold damage, reflex for half. This instantly KO'd the rogue and sorcerer, and nearly killed everyone else except for me (I have immunity to all five energy types). I revived the Rogue using a Last Breath that I thankfully had prepped, and we moved on, but significantly damaged.

I'm surprised the Rogue flubbed the reflex save. They get a lot of bonuses to AC and reflex saves against traps, so I'd expect that to be no damage to the rogue assuming they had evasion and decent save.

Out of curiosity, how are you immune to all five energy types at 15th level?

[rmg22893]

OK, maybe you should focus on keeping your party alive more than self preservation, which seems to have been your original question ?

After all, should your DM discover Greater Dispell Magic - your strategy will have failed anyway.

Its a shame that the rest of the party don't seem to be as party minded, they're just playing their characters I guess ?
Why did they feel the need to set off a trap which would kill half the party anyway ? This is just plain dumb.

Bears Endurance, Mass is a level 6 spell which would add up to 30 HP.
Resist Energy, Mass is only 3rd - but predicting thh nature of traps is hard, which is why the rogue goes first (after you buff him) and disarmes them.

A level 20 caster with Greater Dispel Magic would have to roll a 14 or higher to dispel any of my buffs at this point. So even GDM is iffy to counter me.

[Bahamut Omega]

In regards to the over-use of my spell slots for self-buffing:

Right now, for personal buffs each day, I am using these slots:

6th level: 2
5th level: 1
4th level: 2
3rd level: 3
2nd level: 1

These spell slots in total give me immunity to three elements (other two are achieved through silver dragon wild shape), +6 to all my saves, crit and sneak attack immunity, blindsight, water breathing, swim speed, a couple of minor abilities and Greater Luminous Armor and all its benefits. All the rest of my spells are party-oriented, being mostly heals, battlefield control spells, a couple of blasts, a GMF for the party monk, and some utility/travel spells.

The reason I buff myself so extensively is because if I die, the party is pretty much screwed. Nobody else has any way to heal or resurrect anyone.

How are you able to wild shape into a dragon? Wild shape is restricted to animals and plants at that level. I'm assuming an obscure feat.

I think your problem is a problem I see rampant on these boards in general is that you all are trying to use a gazillion different rule books. The problem with this is that it becomes impossible to accurately gauge whether you're following the rules.

Anyways, you didn't come here for a lecture on that. Somebody recommended taking an item creation feat and I concur with their reasoning. It'll slow your level growth while giving your party some benefits. Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, or Craft Wonderous Item are great choices.

My experience has shown that the material and xp costs are extremely reasonable for brew potion provided your DM doesn't decide to regularly specifically target potions your party members. I've not played a game where my character had the other two feats, but they sound like a great way to boost your party in pretty much any way conceivable. Given your caster level and party's composition, you should be able to work with the other casters to make pretty much anything the party needs or wants.

[Brock Samson]

If at all possible, maybe suggest to your Sorc buddy to obtain the Celerity spell (4th level version lets you use a Standard action as an immediate action), then if he has Mass Resis Energy and Resilient Sphere or Solid Fog or any number of other things which might foil a trap, it won't matter if he's dazed the next turn, and he's just saved his own bacon, as well as the rest of the party's. Really, being able to get away from the trap or stop it altogether sounds pretty helpful.

[danzibr]

I'm surprised the Rogue flubbed the reflex save. They get a lot of bonuses to AC and reflex saves against traps, so I'd expect that to be no damage to the rogue assuming they had evasion and decent save.

Out of curiosity, how are you immune to all five energy types at 15th level?
It was actually a fort save.

And he uses rods and stuff. Already been said.

[nedz]

A level 20 caster with Greater Dispel Magic would have to roll a 14 or higher to dispel any of my buffs at this point. So even GDM is iffy to counter me.

So a 35% chance, with Repeat Spell (or similiar) that brings it to 47.75%.
Thats per enchantment potentially.

Guess He'd just have to go for Disjunction then ?

[rmg22893]

I'm surprised the Rogue flubbed the reflex save. They get a lot of bonuses to AC and reflex saves against traps, so I'd expect that to be no damage to the rogue assuming they had evasion and decent save.

Out of curiosity, how are you immune to all five energy types at 15th level?

On odd days, I cast an extended Energy Immunity (fire) and an extended Energy Immunity (electricity). On even days, I cast extended Energy Immunity (sonic) and extended Superior Resistance, all using a standard Rod of Extend. Rinse and repeat. The other two energy immunities (acid and cold) are achieved through silver dragon form.


How are you able to wild shape into a dragon? Wild shape is restricted to animals and plants at that level. I'm assuming an obscure feat.

I think your problem is a problem I see rampant on these boards in general is that you all are trying to use a gazillion different rule books. The problem with this is that it becomes impossible to accurately gauge whether you're following the rules.

Anyways, you didn't come here for a lecture on that. Somebody recommended taking an item creation feat and I concur with their reasoning. It'll slow your level growth while giving your party some benefits. Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, or Craft Wonderous Item are great choices.

My experience has shown that the material and xp costs are extremely reasonable for brew potion provided your DM doesn't decide to regularly specifically target potions your party members. I've not played a game where my character had the other two feats, but they sound like a great way to boost your party in pretty much any way conceivable. Given your caster level and party's composition, you should be able to work with the other casters to make pretty much anything the party needs or wants.

I'm actually not using very many rulebooks. Draconic Wild Shape is a feat in Draconomicon which lets you take on the shape of any Small or Medium dragon and gain Ex and Su abilities, differentiated from the Epic feat Dragon Wild Shape, which lets you take the shape of any dragon up to your size limit. Outside of core, I'm using Draconomicon, PHBII, Spell Compendium, MIC, and Complete Mage for a couple of spells.

The reason I'm not going to bother taking item creation feats is because of a houserule the DM has made that allows us to create items without the feat, given proper equipment. So you'd need to find a laboratory for crafting potions, so on and so forth.

[Gavinfoxx]

Dragon Wild Shape, Draconomicon. You can get it as your level 12 feat.

[Myou]

So a 35% chance, with Repeat Spell (or similiar) that brings it to 47.75%.
Thats per enchantment potentially.

Guess He'd just have to go for Disjunction then ?

I think you mean 57.75%.

[Sutremaine]

I'm surprised the Rogue flubbed the reflex save. They get a lot of bonuses to AC and reflex saves against traps, so I'd expect that to be no damage to the rogue assuming they had evasion and decent save.
If you don't have any reroll capability, all the bonuses in the world won't protect you from a natural 1.

[nedz]

I think you mean 57.75%.

Damm, your right, I am a little tired :smallredface::smallsmile:

[Myou]

Damm, your right, I am a little tired :smallredface::smallsmile:

Very easy mistake to make. :smallbiggrin:

[Trasilor]

A level 20 caster with Greater Dispel Magic would have to roll a 14 or higher to dispel any of my buffs at this point. So even GDM is iffy to counter me.

I am confused, why does a level 20 caster with Greater Dispel Magic need to roll a 14 or higher?

Per the spell description, a 14 would allow them to pass a DC 34 which hits caster level 23 (DC = 11 plus caster level)? How is a 15th level Druid casting as a 23 level caster?

[rmg22893]

I am confused, why does a level 20 caster with Greater Dispel Magic need to roll a 14 or higher?

Per the spell description, a 14 would allow them to pass a DC 34 which hits caster level 23 (DC = 11 plus caster level)? How is a 15th level Druid casting as a 23 level caster?

I cast my buffs using a bead of karma at the beginning of the day, so that's +4 caster level. I'm also wearing a Ring of Enduring Arcana.

[Randomguy]

A master specialist abjurer could still dispel on a 9, or on a 5 with an ACF that gives him a few domain powers (for inquisition domain).

[nedz]

A master specialist abjurer could still dispel on a 9, or on a 5 with an ACF that gives him a few domain powers (for inquisition domain).

There are many options such as this in an optimisation arms race; I won't mention the D word again other than to say it doesn't require much CharOp skill to use. If your DM is the sort to get desperate, expect it to follow.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm unfamiliar with anything that is a glyph that forces a Fort/half on an AE blastomancy. Everything in every book I've ever seen indicates that it is Ref/Half.

Furthermore, as the glyph was most certainly a trap, his Trap Sense should've boosted his Fort save. At the very least, he should've made that save. Certainly the Monk should have.

Double-furthermore, Even failing that save should not have killed a 14th level character unless they were already severely wounded, in which case you had bigger problems.

Since you have some people rolling new characters, I advise one of them to be a party support character.

Spontaneous Cloistered Cleric/Sovereign Speaker. Takes Chain Spell and DMM: Chain Spell. Broadcasts Energy Resistance to entire party. This solves that particular problem.

Also broadcast the following buffs to allies:

Greater Magic Weapon
Magic Vestments
Resistance, Superior

If he can get Reach Spell Persist and DMM: Persist, also use the following:

DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Death Ward
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Freedom of Movement
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Shield of Faith
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Barkskin (Plant domain)
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Sheltered Vitality (SpC)

Party now has:

Immunity to any mobility-hampering, death effects, energy drain, stat damage, stat drain, fatigue, exhaustion and negative levels

+x Enhancement bonus to armor and shield AC, and to weapons attack and damage

+x Deflection and Natural Armor bonus to AC

If he picks up a Bead of Karma, his effective caster level for these buffs should hit 20, which means +5's on everything.

Sure, he blows half of his spells at the beginning of the day. He also doesn't really need to do anything else for the rest of the day.

I'd also suggest looking up a Bardblade DFI Optimization thread. It makes mobs dead.

Now that the party has been boosted up to the point where they are nigh invulnerable, you may continue with your daily routine.

[Randomguy]

<snip>

A nice alternative is taking leadership and getting a cohort to use as a buffmonkey, instead of having a player do it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A nice alternative is taking leadership and getting a cohort to use as a buffmonkey, instead of having a player do it.

There are some forms of cheese which even such as I look down upon. Leadership is one of them. It's right up there with recursive infinite gate cheese.

[rmg22893]

I'm unfamiliar with anything that is a glyph that forces a Fort/half on an AE blastomancy. Everything in every book I've ever seen indicates that it is Ref/Half.

It was some sort of psionic trap...? I don't know.



Double-furthermore, Even failing that save should not have killed a 14th level character unless they were already severely wounded, in which case you had bigger problems.

The rogue has surprisingly low HP. His CON is 8 from a 28PB. Same for the sorcerer.


Since you have some people rolling new characters, I advise one of them to be a party support character.

I actually revived both of them with no level loss. I used Cocoon on the Sorcerer and Last Breath'd the Rogue.

[Randomguy]

There are some forms of cheese which even such as I look down upon. Leadership is one of them. It's right up there with recursive infinite gate cheese.

I suppose this really is a "your mileage may vary" case: It's cheesy, no doubt, but sometimes it's better to bring some cheese into the game then it is to force a player into a specific build for the parties survival.

And really, it's can be toned down a lot: For example, the party isn't going to pour more resources into getting the cleric nightsticks for more turn attempts than they are for their own stuff. In fact, it's still worthwhile (probably better, from a cheese standpoint) if the cleric doesn't take DMM at all, and just does extra healing and buffing to make the other characters less squishy and take some of the pressure off the druid.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I suppose this really is a "your mileage may vary" case: It's cheesy, no doubt, but sometimes it's better to bring some cheese into the game then it is to force a player into a specific build for the parties survival. True enough, however with Leadership comes pathetically easily abusable combos. Circle Magic comes to mind as only one of many different types.


And really, it's can be toned down a lot: For example, the party isn't going to pour more resources into getting the cleric nightsticks for more turn attempts than they are for their own stuff. In fact, it's still worthwhile (probably better, from a cheese standpoint) if the cleric doesn't take DMM at all, and just does extra healing and buffing to make the other characters less squishy and take some of the pressure off the druid.

You'd be surprised how many turn attempts you can put into a character without resorting to cracksticks.

However, healing is irrelevant if half the party are one-shot wonders. In this case, prevention is definitely the flavor of the day. And while buffs can provide immunities, it's nearly always single-target and minutes-duration. To solve both of these problems, you're going to need DMM to get it done pre-epic.

Resistance, Superior
Greater Magic Weapon
Magic Vestments
Mind Blank (Protection domain)

These are all spells with a duration of Hours/level or flat 24 hours, and can be expected to be on all day long. The first one dramatically shores up all saving throws to prevent this situation from happening again. The next two make everyone's combat numbers better. The last gives immunity to a whole host of problems, most of them being Save or Lose (or at least Save or Loose the ability to control your character).

However, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, and Sheltered Vitality all have a duration of either 10 min/level or Min/lvl. That's not long enough to last through the day, and they provide immunities to a wide depth of very problematic effects. Now, at CL 20 (doable with Bead of Karma amd a few toys at this level), 10 min/level translates into 200 minutes, which is just over 3 hours. If we Extend it, that makes it just around 6.5 hrs. If you have Rope Trick/MMM access, that could well be a good enough 'adventuring day'. However, the Min/Lvl buffs absoluitely need to be Persisted. Hence either Ocular Spell or Reach Spell to give a defined and static range to qualify for Persisting.

Resist Energy could have saved lives here. At the least, it would've nearly chopped the damage received in half (would've nearly negated it on a successful save). However, again, it's a duration of 10 min/level, and you'll never know which flavor you need ahead of time. It's also single target. However, the range of Touch mean you can Reach for Persisting, and you can also then Chain it to all allies. Will you drain most of your 2nd level slots to get everyone's energy resistance up on all elements? Absolutely. Is it worth it? Definitely.

Since you have several one-hit wonders, you need to treat them with kid gloves, and do a bit of wrapping them in cotton (i.e. buffs) if they are going to be expected to survive the upcoming trials. If you don't take my suggestion (and I freely admit, it's not just cheesy, it's Gouda, and the GM may not be fondue of it), then at least do something to buff them.

[Thomasinx]

Look at it this way: You are playing a druid (Tier 1 class) in its most efficient capacity. You might not be making a complete munchkin, but your character is definitely optimized.

Your teammates are playing Tier 4/5 classes, and are new to the game (ie unable to play the class in their most efficient capacity). It also seems like your teammates playing wizards/sorcs aren't playing optimized casters, and are just focusing on being blasters. (So probably around Tier ~2-3 strength)

It's no wonder that your character is above and beyond more powerful than the rest, screwing up balance. In this situation, your DM should have either made concessions to help out the newbies, or should have intentionally crafted things to target your weaknesses. (Ie, Master Specialist Abjurer with dispelling items, anything that forces you out of wild-shape followed by silence, AMF, etc...).

Honestly, with a team like this, the DM would usually try to put newbies as Tier 1-2 classes, and let the more experienced players play the lower Tier classes (so everything comes out balanced). Another option would have been for you to take an inefficient prestige class. You know all those 'spiffy' prestige classes that aren't really very good? This is the time to have fun with some of those.

My big piece of advice is this: Stop buffing yourself. Buff your team. You spend 9 spells per day buffing just yourself, and not helping your team. As you've already established, you are above and beyond the most powerful person in your team, which means that you dont need the buffs: your team does. And if you happen to die because you didnt buff yourself enough, then this gives you the opportunity to play a character more balanced with the rest of the group. Plus, if they lose their source of resurrection, it isn't the end of the campaign: they just might have to play smart for a while and not take any risks.

[rmg22893]

Your teammates are playing Tier 4/5 classes, and are new to the game (ie unable to play the class in their most efficient capacity). It also seems like your teammates playing wizards/sorcs aren't playing optimized casters, and are just focusing on being blasters. (So probably around Tier ~2-3 strength)


All of the players, save for the rogue, have years of 3.5 experience under their belts :/

[Gavinfoxx]

All of the players, save for the rogue, have years of 3.5 experience under their belts :/

So? Was it USEFUL experience?

[Oscredwin]

Someone who's been playing the game for 3.5 years made a blaster sorcerer with an 8 con?

[Gavinfoxx]

Sounds like it wasn't useful experience, and no one ever, you know, played the system in a really challenging, numeric way for that player to learn...

[Killer Angel]

All of the players, save for the rogue, have years of 3.5 experience under their belts :/

It doesn't really matters if they have 1 month or 10 years of gaming experience. Their characters are not optimized and are far inferior to your druid.
It's your character that doesn't fit the power level of the group and the campaign.

[Tytalus]

Spontaneous Cloistered Cleric/Sovereign Speaker. Takes Chain Spell and DMM: Chain Spell. Broadcasts Energy Resistance to entire party. This solves that particular problem.

Also broadcast the following buffs to allies:

Greater Magic Weapon
Magic Vestments
Resistance, Superior

If he can get Reach Spell Persist and DMM: Persist, also use the following:

DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Death Ward
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Freedom of Movement
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Shield of Faith
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Barkskin (Plant domain)
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Sheltered Vitality (SpC)


Resist Energy, Magic Vestment and Superior Resistance have a range of touch, so they can't be chained without Reach Spell.

Casting all theses spells requires a whole lot of turn undead uses and spell slots. In fact:

DMM Chain Reach Resist Energy: 3rd level slot, 5 turn attempts
DMM Chain Greater Magic Weapon: 4th level slot, 5 turn attempts
DMM Chain Reach Magic Vestments: 4th level slot, 5 turn attempts
DMM Chain Reach Resistance, Superior: 7th level slot(*), 5 turn attempts
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Death Ward: 5th level slot, 13 turn attempts
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Freedom of Movement: 5th level slot, 13 turn attempts
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Shield of Faith: 2nd level slot, 13 turn attempts
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Barkskin (Plant domain): 3rd level slot, 13 turn attempts
DMM: Chain Reach DMM: Persist Sheltered Vitality (SpC): 5th level slot, 13 turn attempts

(*) A slot of this level is most likely not available to a cleric/ss (e.g. Cleric5/ss7) of the proper level (14 or less). For a cleric it should work.

Total:

- 85 turn undead attempts (requires serious cheese)
- 1x 7th (likely not available), 3x 5th, 2x 4th, 2x 3rd, 1x 2nd.
- 6 feat choices (chain spell, DMM chain spell, extend spell, persist spell, DMM persist spell, reach spell), i.e. all feats of a level 13-14 human cleric.

This basically requires the character to focus entirely on this shtick. Given that it also requires serious DMM/turnAttempt cheese, I'd rather do that as a cohort. Somehow, leadership in this particular case seems way less cheesy than stacking nightsticks to come up with that many turn attempts. YMMV.



If he picks up a Bead of Karma, his effective caster level for these buffs should hit 20, which means +5's on everything.


If his level is 13-14 (given the info in the OP), he need some other CL boosts to reach 20.

[Malachei]

Again, why use in-game solutions?

What will result from more optimized characters? Will the players even appreciate they have to work harder to get a better character done? Will they (really (!)) appreciate advice from a better optimizer? Will your DM appreciate?

What is the point in discussion what a druid can do, and having dozens of posts address rules you can use to make your druid stronger or better buff the other PCs? This will only make your role more important. It seems you are already the most important character.

Why not talk about the whole issue jointly, with the DM, with the other players. It would be interesting to find out if the other players feel their characters have enough "stage time" and opportunity to shine. It would be interesting to know how the DM felt about the imbalance.

[Brock Samson]

It your DM is making traps that he KNOWS beforehand will do NOTHING to you (even on a failed save) and have a pretty good chance of outright killing 2 of the PCs, I think he needs to start thinking a little more about how he wants to do said trapping.

[Eldariel]

The rogue has surprisingly low HP. His CON is 8 from a 28PB. Same for the sorcerer.

As I thought, the problem is that your party is terribly constructed. No character ever should ever ever ever (in the history of ever?) have 8 Con in D&D 3.X (Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Undead/Con- races not withstanding), far less low HD types like Sorcerer or Rogue.

I guess your party didn't get help in character creation? 'cause 8 Con is a death wish; I never play under 14 Con characters unless I have something to lessen the impact of the loss (Archer Warblade or Barbarian with d12 HD and relatively safe location and good fort saves can kinda work with 12 Con).

And now we're talking about a d4 and a d6 HD class, so...yeah, they're kinda ****ed. Getting Con bonus items and having them prepare defensive health gain spells and casting Resist Energies on everybody (that spell is level 2 and 10 min/level so meh) would be a starting point but your allies have screwed themselves over royally in character creation and all the buffing in the world won't save them now; it might help them die little less though.


The DM is doing nothing wrong; he's running the game world as makes sense. But the party...ugh, they're not prepared for adventuring. They shoulda just stayed on the prime and lived their happy lives as small game hunters, burglars or something. Try to Last Breath them all into Dwarves I suppose? Oh, and yeah, Sorcerer and Wizard should have no trouble protecting themselves on these levels. Contingent Resilient Sphere/Teleport, as mentioned earlier, would help. Greater Mirror Image, Celerity -> Mobility Spell or Wall, et cetera.

They also have access to Moment of Prescience, Superior Resistance, False Life (potentially Empowered), Greater Mage Armor, just an array of potent survivability buffs. And of course, prescience to not do stupid stuff like going to the room; "DM wants you to do X" is not really a reason to do X. Before reading damn Glyphs you should at least have Rogue check 'em and Detect Magic and overall, do research. The whole room coulda also been comprised of Explosive Runes and you woulda all taken 100d6 Force Damage with no save, with the rash action that you undertook. Care, care, care. Make your teammates play more carefully or they'll eventually get you killed too.

[demigodus]

How much of your party is required to survive the gauntlet? Can your character just go "brb guyz, gtg be awesome", and solo the gauntlet? Or don't prepare any means of resurrection, but simply keep going and complete the gauntlet while the rest of the party is killed off? Because that might sound like the easiest option here.


It doesn't really matters if they have 1 month or 10 years of gaming experience. Their characters are not optimized and are far inferior to your druid.
It's your character that doesn't fit the power level of the group and the campaign.

Actually, since apparently the DM gave up tailoring challenges to the druid, this sounds like a case where the druid doesn't fit the power level of the rest of the group, while the rest of the group doesn't fit the power level of the campaign. Nerfing the druid in this case won't help then, since campaign difficulty isn't based on how awesome he is. Either the campaign difficulty needs nerfing, or the rest of the party needs optimization.

[rmg22893]

I guess your party didn't get help in character creation? 'cause 8 Con is a death wish; I never play under 14 Con characters unless I have something to lessen the impact of the loss (Archer Warblade or Barbarian with d12 HD and relatively safe location and good fort saves can kinda work with 12 Con).

Yes, they had little help in creating characters. All of them, save for the rogue, are experienced players, however, so I don't know how they didn't see this coming. 8 Constitution on a sorcerer is asking to die.

[Mari01]

How much of your party is required to survive the gauntlet? Can your character just go "brb guyz, gtg be awesome", and solo the gauntlet? Or don't prepare any means of resurrection, but simply keep going and complete the gauntlet while the rest of the party is killed off? Because that might sound like the easiest option here.



Actually, since apparently the DM gave up tailoring challenges to the druid, this sounds like a case where the druid doesn't fit the power level of the rest of the group, while the rest of the group doesn't fit the power level of the campaign. Nerfing the druid in this case won't help then, since campaign difficulty isn't based on how awesome he is. Either the campaign difficulty needs nerfing, or the rest of the party needs optimization.

Sounds like he gave up trying to challenge the druid, and the rest of the party suffers. The druid needs to be nerfed.

[rmg22893]

How much of your party is required to survive the gauntlet? Can your character just go "brb guyz, gtg be awesome", and solo the gauntlet? Or don't prepare any means of resurrection, but simply keep going and complete the gauntlet while the rest of the party is killed off? Because that might sound like the easiest option here.

We actually managed to get through the gauntlet with nobody losing a level, surprisingly. The DM houseruled that I could instantly have prepared 8th level spells as soon as I leveled for this occasion only, so I Cocooned the sorcerer and we revived him later for no level loss. We fought a Necronaut, which hurt us pretty badly, but I soaked up some of the damage for them. After that, we obtained a +4 golden vorpal sickle, and had to fight a skeletal dragon and some sort of undead giant head with tentacles that cast finger of death all over the place. On a side note, does anyone know what that is? The monk nearly died, but I used Heal on him and kept him alive, fortunately.

[2xMachina]

Sounds like he gave up trying to challenge the druid, and the rest of the party suffers. The druid needs to be nerfed.

Nah, that'll just cause a TPK.

Seems like the Dm doesn't care about the optimization of the players.

If anything, the players (other than druid) needs buffing. Most are playing like a T4, and the DM is setting the difficulty at T2/3

[Eldariel]

Actually, since apparently the DM gave up tailoring challenges to the druid, this sounds like a case where the druid doesn't fit the power level of the rest of the group, while the rest of the group doesn't fit the power level of the campaign. Nerfing the druid in this case won't help then, since campaign difficulty isn't based on how awesome he is. Either the campaign difficulty needs nerfing, or the rest of the party needs optimization.

I'd say the latter since that party sounds like "Throw anything at me and we die"; anybody with 8 Con is by default a walking corpse and it doesn't sound like they're putting a lot of effort into buffing their defenses up (which should be trivial with a friggin' Incantatrix in the party) and neither do they play with the standard care of an adventurer.

A bunch of careless (that is, new; they'll get a better hang of being as careful as level 15 adventurers would be with some experience), defensively terrible characters is of course going to lead to deaths over and over again, pretty much no matter what you throw at them. I'd say let them reap what they sow and just offer whatever assistance you can to them (with Druid spells, that's quite a bit, and next time you can acquire items suggest, referring to the past experiences, them to focus solely on Con, Resistances and defensive utility items along with Pearls of Power for your and the Incantatar to prepare defensive spells over and over for the whole party with). Oh, and the Incantatrix is probably either new with a build from forums, or holding back; either way, ask him to pull back a bit on holding back with the defense and help make the party less squishy. You two are the keys.

[rmg22893]

A bunch of careless (that is, new; they'll get a better hang of being as careful as level 15 adventurers would be with some experience), defensively terrible characters is of course going to lead to deaths over and over again, pretty much no matter what you throw at them. I'd say let them reap what they sow and just offer whatever assistance you can to them (with Druid spells, that's quite a bit, and next time you can acquire items suggest, referring to the past experiences, them to focus solely on Con, Resistances and defensive utility items along with Pearls of Power for your and the Incantatar to prepare defensive spells over and over for the whole party with). Oh, and the Incantatrix is probably either new with a build from forums, or holding back; either way, ask him to pull back a bit on holding back with the defense and help make the party less squishy. You two are the keys.

He's not new, he's apparently been playing for almost as long as I have. The issue is that he thinks that Evocation is the most powerful school in existence :smalleek: and almost solely prepares blasting spells and mage armor. He makes heavy use of SpellGen, so I had to vet his spellbook and remove spells for which we didn't have sourcebooks, were terribly broken, or which came from PF (read: Streamers). He's a Wizard/Incantatar/Fatespinner. The rogue, for whatever reason, has these stats:

STR 10
DEX 21
CON 8
INT 12
WIS 14 ???
CHA 16

The 14 wisdom absolutely baffles me, as does the 10 STR, since he has weapon finesse and almost exclusively uses daggers. He is new to D&D (although not new to d20 systems), though, so I suppose it's expected.

[TuggyNE]

some sort of undead giant head with tentacles that cast finger of death all over the place. On a side note, does anyone know what that is?

That sounds very much like a Doomsphere -- an undead Beholder. Funtimes! :smalltongue:

Also: it is possible to spend a lot of time in a game system as complex as 3.5 without actually gaining very much experience in its finer points, and that appears to be the case with a couple of your teammates.

[Eldariel]

He's not new, he's apparently been playing for almost as long as I have. The issue is that he thinks that Evocation is the most powerful school in existence :smalleek: and almost solely prepares blasting spells and mage armor. He makes heavy use of SpellGen, so I had to vet his spellbook and remove spells for which we didn't have sourcebooks, were terribly broken, or which came from PF (read: Streamers).

You mean Streamers as in broken? 'cause it certainly doesn't come from PF :smalltongue: But yeah, give him some tips. Well, rather point out the party's present predicament, your near-invulnerability, and how he could be a part of the solution.


He's a Wizard/Incantatar/Fatespinner. The rogue, for whatever reason, has these stats:

STR 10
DEX 21
CON 8
INT 12
WIS 14 ???
CHA 16

The 14 wisdom absolutely baffles me, as does the 10 STR, since he has weapon finesse and almost exclusively uses daggers. He is new to D&D (although not new to d20 systems), though, so I suppose it's expected.

14 Wisdom isn't terrible. It governs one weak save and the all-important sensory skills. Of course, it can't come at the cost of 8 Con. But I understand the rationale. 10 Str is so he doesn't take penalty to damage; that's fine. 16 Cha is too much though, if that was on pb. And really, whatever the case, Con is second only after Dex since you're a squishy melee class with bad Fort-save.

[demigodus]

He's not new, he's apparently been playing for almost as long as I have. The issue is that he thinks that Evocation is the most powerful school in existence :smalleek: and almost solely prepares blasting spells and mage armor. He makes heavy use of SpellGen, so I had to vet his spellbook and remove spells for which we didn't have sourcebooks, were terribly broken, or which came from PF (read: Streamers). He's a Wizard/Incantatar/Fatespinner.

Don't help him at all? No buffing/reviving for him. Let him reap what he sows, and whenever he is in trouble comment on how if he had X defensive item, or had cast Y defensive spell on himself, or dropped Z crowd control spell he would be fine.

[rmg22893]

You mean Streamers as in broken? 'cause it certainly doesn't come from PF :smalltongue: But yeah, give him some tips. Well, rather point out the party's present predicament, your near-invulnerability, and how he could be a part of the solution.



14 Wisdom isn't terrible. It governs one weak save and the all-important sensory skills. Of course, it can't come at the cost of 8 Con. But I understand the rationale. 10 Str is so he doesn't take penalty to damage; that's fine. 16 Cha is too much though, if that was on pb. And really, whatever the case, Con is second only after Dex since you're a squishy melee class with bad Fort-save.

Yes, I meant as in broken. :smalltongue: I don't think the rogue really knew where he wanted to go with his character; he took one level in shadowdancer and then decided he didn't want to be a shadowdancer anymore. So I dunno.

[Eldariel]

Yes, I meant as in broken. :smalltongue: I don't think the rogue really knew where he wanted to go with his character; he took one level in shadowdancer and then decided he didn't want to be a shadowdancer anymore. So I dunno.

...so let me repeat the question, I guess nobody in the party got help with character creation? 'cause anybody with any experience should tell him to not play with 8 Con. He's already playing a d6 HD class so he really can't afford any penalties on top of that.

[rmg22893]

...so let me repeat the question, I guess nobody in the party got help with character creation? 'cause anybody with any experience should tell him to not play with 8 Con. He's already playing a d6 HD class so he really can't afford any penalties on top of that.

I believe help was offered to the rogue, but he declined. Our DM is very much so a proponent of "everyone plays their own character the way they want to."

[Eldariel]

I believe help was offered to the rogue, but he declined. Our DM is very much so a proponent of "everyone plays their own character the way they want to."

Hm, so he wanted to play a corpse. Ah well, I guess that's his choice and you shouldn't trouble yourself with keeping him alive then :smallsigh: But yeah, I guess all you can do is get Incantatrix to do something useful, offer your spells for the rest of the party as appropriate and make them buy some useful defensive items given the chance.

[moritheil]

What can I do to help keep them alive? I haven't taken a feat for level 15 yet, and am considering taking either Touch of Healing (CC) or Magic of the Land (RotW) to supplement any healing that I do, since I can't think of any other decent feats.

Use summons to set off traps and scout. Basically there's no reason they should have to lead the way; they have a freaking druid in the party.

MotL is nice at low levels but you are not going to want it at 15. Ditto for ToH, there are items in the MIC that are more powerful than that and are only pocket change for a 15th level char.

[Marlowe]

:

Also: it is possible to spend a lot of time in a game system as complex as 3.5 without actually gaining very much experience in its finer points, and that appears to be the case with a couple of your teammates.

My friends, I know of one who has been playing for years. Always Fighter, with or without some Rogue (for SA) or some Ranger (for Combat Style). So you can sort of forgive him for not understanding why Magic Missile doesn't break locks, or that Acid Splash doesn't blind people, or that you can't cast Enlarge Person on a Dire Bear and then make it stick with Permanency. Or that casting Grease does next to nothing to enemy casters. You can sort of forgive these things, although by the fifth time you tell him it's getting a little old.

It gets really old though, when he doesn't use Power Attack because he doesn't understand it, or can't understand how a 6th level Barb can get two attacks with a Greataxe, or know what a stabilization roll is.

Bottom line; experience does not equal any sort of competence. Sometimes it's just making the same mistakes over and over.