High-Stat Campaign Advice

[Uncensored]

In the next campaign we're going to play, my DM gave us a preset array of stats to use:

18, 18, 16, 16, 14, 14

We're allowed to go up to +2 LA with buyoff later, and I was wondering:

What race/class would best[ take advantage of high stats like this?
(assume I've got every book available)


I considered making a Sorcerer (1/4 Dragon Spellscale, Magic-Blooded), but it seemed like I wouldn't really be taking advantage of anything except my high constitution and charisma.

Normally I'd just make something that seemed quirky and play it, but I have a feeling that my DM is out for blood.

[Oscredwin]

If the DM is out for blood play high tier. Remember that with (+2) LA buy-off you don't actually catch up to the human's level until level 19 or so.

If you want a sorcerer, Cha>Con>Dex>Int>etc. Go mailman or shadowcrafter (if your shadowcrafter isn't "quirky" then you're doing it wrong).

[ericgrau]

Paladin. Or sorcadin (sorcerer 6 / paladin 2 / eldritch knight or abjurant champion). Pick a LA 2 race that gives even higher stats, esp str/cha/con. It won't have as many options as a straight sorcerer but with heavy armor and high saves it will be survivable in a brutal campaign. And, assuming another party member grabs a caster, he'll need a beatstick to kill the remaining foes that he didn't disable with his wall of force or to be a target for his haste or other buffs. And it's uncommon to get a chance like this to play a decent paladin.

Paladin: str 18, cha 18, con 16, dex 16, wis 14, int 14. Dex and wis may be swapped. Sorcadin cha 18, con 18, dex 16, str 16, wis 14, int 14. Consider TWF with dual spell storing kukris for dual critical hit smite vampiric touch+empowered magic missile action, but a sorcadin should primarily cast battlefield control spells at a distance first and use self-buffed melee second. Sort of like the above two man caster+paladin combo but with one man.

[Uncensored]

I looked at the tier system, but it requires quite a bit of familiarity with the classes to really exploit properly.

I was considering making a Druid, but I'm so unfamiliar with the class that I don't think I'd play it to it's full potential.

I was considering making a Wizard, but I can't abide knowing spells without being able to spontaneously cast them.

Sure, Sorcerers know fewer spells, but it's the kind of magic I like; quick and dirty. If necessary, I'll get Eschew Materials, Still Spell and Silent Spell just for the flavor of being able to cast whatever I want whenever I want... even if it's only a few times per day.

If I do play that Sorcerer, though, should I carry a bow and use it when I run out of spells? My Con will only be 16 then, with this setup:

STR: 14
DEX: 16
CON: 16 (18 - 2[Spellscale racial mod]
INT: 16
WIS: 12 (14 - 2[Magic-Blooded])
CHA: 22 (18 + 2[Spellscale racial mod] + 2[Magic-Blooded])

[Uncensored]

Paladin.

This would be a great time to play a Paladin, but there's another wrinkle that I should have mentioned: the classes already claimed.

Someone else already has Paladin[defensive] and Cleric[healing], and I believe another will be a Ninja... or a Bard.

There are five players, so there's room for some overlap and melding of roles, but I don't want to play the same class as anyone else.

[Hazzardevil]

I would recommend you try a build I call the Druid Arcanamach. Take druid until you qualify for Suel from CA, then take that until you qualify for Arcane Hierophant, the game will have ended by the time you finish Hierophant. You have spontaneous casting, wild shape, an animal companion and some druid casting to play around with.

[Uncensored]

I would recommend you try a build I call the Druid Arcanamach. Take druid until you qualify for Suel from CA, then take that until you qualify for Arcane Hierophant, the game will have ended by the time you finish Hierophant. You have spontaneous casting, wild shape, an animal companion and some druid casting to play around with.

What stats would this take advantage of?

[Emperor Tippy]

If you aren't set on a caster I would look at Factotum or Swordsage. You have the base stats to really shine.

Dark Grey Elf Factotum.
Str: 16 (14 after racial)
Dex: 18 (20 after racial)
Con: 16 (14 after racial)
Int: 18 (20 after racial)
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Take Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Int to HP), Craven (+CL damage on sneak attacks), Darkstalker (let's you hide from most special detection abilities), Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), Martial Stance (Assassins Stance) and spend the rest of your feats on Font of Inspiration.

Max your Int and wield daggers.

You end up with Dex to attack, Dex and Str to damage, all the skills you could ever need, Dex and Int to initiative, and can spend inspiration points to get Int to attack, damage, and saving throws. You can also spend IP for extra sneak attack damage and extra actions.

The basic idea is that you hide (and your hide check will be absurd because of the Dark bonuses, including Hide in Plain Sight, and getting to apply both Int and Dex to them) and then make sneak attacks. Use your Cloak of Deception (swift action, provides greater invisibility for the rest of the round) if necessary to pick them up as well.

You are an excellent scout, a skill master, a great assassin, a great first strike hitter, have some casting ability, and are all around quite nifty. It's also a fun build to play at any level and has no weak points.

You might want to dip a level of swordsage, when you do so depends a lot on what level you are starting play at (you want the Swordsage level as late as possible for better maneuver access). One trick to get the most out of the Swordsage dip is to change out several of your feats right before you level up to Martial Study/Martial stance ones so that you can pick better maneuvers from the SS level and then switch the feats back to what you want after you take the level.

The primary SS option is the same general idea, focusing on dual wielding daggers and using maneuvers to pile on as much damage as possible. In this case you should still start with 3 levels of Factotum, being able to add Int to all Dex and Strength checks along with spending IP to apply it to attack and damage rolls is a huge bonus.

[ericgrau]

This would be a great time to play a Paladin, but there's another wrinkle that I should have mentioned: the classes already claimed.

Someone else already has Paladin[defensive] and Cleric[healing], and I believe another will be a Ninja... or a Bard.

There are five players, so there's room for some overlap and melding of roles, but I don't want to play the same class as anyone else.
That works out great too, just flip everything and now you're the sorc. Cast wall of force, haste, etc. and let him clean up. Heck tell him to get a spell storing weapon and charge it up for him. Cha 18, Con 18, Dex 16, Wis 16, Str 14, Int 14. Swap con and dex if you like rays. Half-fey is a great LA 2 template, though maybe slightly OP, for +4 cha, other stat bonuses, flight and great charisma-based spell like abilities. There's also chaos gnome, draconic and half-nymph.

At low levels you can use a bow, but at high levels it's doubtful you'll run out of spells. In fact later you'll have too many. As a rule of thumb I'd focus spells of level max level - 2 and lower mostly on hour/level buffs and swift/immediate spells. Mage armor, false life, greater magic weapon, etc. A lesser rod of extend spell is helpful. For swift/immediates there are feather fall, swift fly (spell compendium), swift invisibility (SpC) and others. Some low level spells are still handy later with metamagic, like empowered magic missile and heightened glitterdust. Others remain handy at high levels regardless because they control the battlefield and have a good effect even on a passed save, like web. And of course your most important spells are your high level ones which should go to battlefield control and multi-target spells: wall of force, fireball, etc. You're best at crowd control and you let the others with single target damage like the paladin pick off the stragglers.

If you're not going to constantly swap your prepared spells, scout/scry foes ahead of time and make meticulous plans in general, then I'd stick with sorcerer over a wizard or other prepared caster. Especially with metamagic to let you use low level spells in high level slots you'll have more options that way compared to preparing spells without a ton of forethought. If you want to try out spontaneous divine there's favored soul, btw.

[Uncensored]

Without having used it, Versatile Caster seems to be an incredible feat for a Sorcerer, too.

And you know, I never really thought of playing a primarily support class. I assumed I'd be nuking and just casting haste & greater invis. on the Ninja.


What about the +1 LA Draconic template? It's nice, sure, but do I really want to delay my spell levels for the extra stats & stuff?

With that, my feats (I took two extra for having Flaws) are currently:

Draconic Heritage (replaced familiar with this)
Draconic Power (+1 caster level... I'm not sure what this actually does for me, though... )
Dragon Wings (+10 to Jump, no fall damage[even while unconscious],
Versatile Spellcaster (take two lower level slots to cast a spell one level higher)

[ericgrau]

Haste & greater invis are good too. Though a ninja already has a source of invis that doesn't take a round to activate so maybe you should take with him before putting a spell on your list that might not get used. For nuking you get the most mileage out of area damage since you're getting X times #targets damage. Single target damage is generally inferior to the melee damage so you're often better hindering foes in other ways. And cutting an encounter right down the middle with a wall of force or web, with no save, trumps just about everything. Suddenly 4 foes are 2 foes.

With all the LA templates and races you are going to be worse until you buyoff and better after you buy them off. Up to you. The other thing is that if you only get 1 LA you can buyoff faster. Like a draconic chaos gnome (1 LA, +4 cha, etc.). The major drawback is delayed spell progression. The benefits are more spells per day (meh), higher spell save DCs, and more HP. So it depends how much you need those.

[Uncensored]

... The benefits are more spells per day (meh)...

More spells per day is the very reason I wanted to be a Sorcerer. Why isn't that, like, the most important thing?

[Rejusu]

Paladin. Or sorcadin (sorcerer 6 / paladin 2 / eldritch knight or abjurant champion). Pick a LA 2 race that gives even higher stats, esp str/cha/con. It won't have as many options as a straight sorcerer but with heavy armor and high saves it will be survivable in a brutal campaign. And, assuming another party member grabs a caster, he'll need a beatstick to kill the remaining foes that he didn't disable with his wall of force or to be a target for his haste or other buffs. And it's uncommon to get a chance like this to play a decent paladin.

Paladin: str 18, cha 18, con 16, dex 16, wis 14, int 14. Dex and wis may be swapped. Sorcadin cha 18, con 18, dex 16, str 16, wis 14, int 14. Consider TWF with dual spell storing kukris for dual critical hit smite vampiric touch+empowered magic missile action, but a sorcadin should primarily cast battlefield control spells at a distance first and use self-buffed melee second. Sort of like the above two man caster+paladin combo but with one man.

How is a paladin high tier? Even with strong starting stats a paladin is never going to be amazing. It's problems don't go away after you get rid of it's MAD issues. And really anything a paladin can do a Cleric can do better.

Those are great stats for a Tashalatora Psychic warrior, or even just a straight psychic warrior. Great strength, great wisdom, good constitution, good dex. You get spontaneous style casting in the form of psionics and strong martial ability. It's basically a Gish in a can.

Factotum is a decent choice too. Although Factotums are rather SAD in that they mainly just need a good int score to get by having other good scores just makes them even better as you get to add your bonuses on top of your int.

If the Cleric is focusing on healing you could build a battle cleric and go into something like Bone Knight.

In fact those are just great stats for any kind of gish because you've got ample room to have great mental and physical stats.

If you want to be a caster and want that spontaneous aspect there's also Psion as an alternative to Sorcerer. But it doesn't really take much advantage of those stats as you only really need a good Int and Con. Dex is helpful for AC and initiative of course but you won't really be using your Str, Cha or Wis.

[Uncensored]

Unfortunately, no psionics are allowed in this campaign.

[ericgrau]

More spells per day is the very reason I wanted to be a Sorcerer. Why isn't that, like, the most important thing?
Because "more" is only 1 more per level, lower levels first. And you already have a lot. Which is excellent, but that means more on top of that isn't as helpful. It's not nothing, but I look more at things like being a level higher for spellcasting most of all, and a distant second is spell save DC and HP.


How is a paladin high tier? Even with strong starting stats a paladin is never going to be amazing. It's problems don't go away after you get rid of it's MAD issues. And really anything a paladin can do a Cleric can do better.
It's not, but if say the party was already full of casters it would both combine well with battlefield control spells, buffs and also survive very well in a brutal campaign from the saves, d10 HD, heavy armor and such. Quite simply even if a sorcerer blinds and cripples foes into jibbering idiots they can still beat up the flimsy sorcerer. A paladin does more single target damage for cleanup than rays do, and it would be better if less spells known went to direct single target damage too. A cleric is only better with DMM persist or maybe at level 15+. I dunno if his DM allows DMM persist.

But it's moot since his party already has a paladin, so now I say flip it around and be the sorcerer that helps the paladin instead of vis versa.

[Rejusu]

It's not, but if say the party was already full of casters it would both combine well with battlefield control spells, buffs and also survive very well in a brutal campaign from the saves, d10 HD, heavy armor and such. Quite simply even if a sorcerer blinds and cripples foes into jibbering idiots they can still beat up the flimsy sorcerer. A paladin does more single target damage for cleanup than rays do, and it would be better if less spells known went to direct single target damage too. A cleric is only better with DMM persist or maybe at level 15+. I dunno if his DM allows DMM persist.

But it's moot since his party already has a paladin, so now I say flip it around and be the sorcerer that helps the paladin instead of vis versa.

Yes but the point is you could play something like a Crusader, Warblade, Psychic warrior... or any sort of reasonably optimised Gish. I agree that a party should have a balanced composition, it shouldn't be all squishy casters. But the thing is there's far better beefy characters than the Paladin. A reasonably optimised battle cleric can out do the Paladin even without things like persisted Divine Power. I mean simply not getting any form of spell casting until level 4 already puts the Paladin behind. His class features don't scale particularly great, with all the best stuff being front loaded, and in terms of offensive ability they're way behind other martial characters (smite just isn't great).

I mean by the time a Paladin even gets first level spells the Cleric can be buffing himself with the likes of Bulls strength.

[Eldariel]

With those stats, class-based hit dice aren't really very relevant anymore; nobody is squishy with 18+ Con. I'd personally go Cleric or Bard first, since those are the most interesting MAD classes in the game.

Since those appear to be taken, I'd go Gish. Sorcadin is one way but I'd personally prefer a Wizard-based Gish, probably with Arcane Disciple [Complete Divine] to expand the spell list a tad. This basically brings all your stats except for Cha to bear.