Do I really get 8 Attacks out of this?

[smarti]

Lvl 10 Char, Monk, Barb, Totem, Fotf, BW or something like that -

would that really mean I can get 8 Attacks while raged?

So 3 UAS (FoB), and at -5: 2 Claws, 1 Bite, 2 Extra Claws from some Chakra
Does that work ?! and is there a way to get even more attacks with 10 lvls?

Just curious.

[Morph Bark]

You're going to have to be more specific, but please keep in mind that the claws from Fist of the Forest only increase your unarmed strike damage rather than giving you claw attacks.

[smarti]

Okay,

You usually have 3 Attacks - Monk with FoB und BaB of lets say 7
Then you Rage and become a Bear, so you gain 2 Claw Attacks and 1 Bite Attack
Then you activate your Chakra GIRALLON ARMS and gain another 4 Claws

Would that mean that I can attack with 3 USA and 6 Claws and 1 Bite?

Does that make sense?

[Darrin]

Okay,

You usually have 3 Attacks - Monk with FoB und BaB of lets say 7


Yes, monk with BAB +7 gets 2 iterative attacks, you can flurry for 3. Unfortunately, claws/bite are not monk weapons, so you can't attack with them while flurrying. But you can get the same effect with TWF and/or Snap Kick.



Then you Rage and become a Bear, so you gain 2 Claw Attacks and 1 Bite Attack


Yes, although you can do the same thing at level 1 with a kobold. 2 iterative unarmed strikes + claw/claw/bite = 5 attacks. Add TWF for 6.



Then you activate your Chakra GIRALLON ARMS and gain another 4 Claws


The Girallon Arms soulmeld gives you one primary claw attack and three secondary claw attacks. The rules for soulmelds that grant natural attacks are somewhat vague, but the general consensus is if you already have claws, then Girallon Arms will just "overlap" them. There's also the issue of whether the text of Girallon Arms overrides the general rules for primary/secondary natural attacks, but for the sake of argument let's just assume that "one primary claw + three secondary claws" can become "unarmed strikes + four secondary claw attacks". Your natural attacks are added to your full attack progression with a -5 secondary attack penalty. So your full attack progression (assuming TWFing with unarmed strikes) would look something like:

-2 unarmed/-2 unarmed/-2 unarmed/-5 claw/-5 claw/-5 claw/-5 claw/-5 bite

8 attacks. A Kobold Totemist could do this at 3rdish level (taking improved unarmed strike at 1st and TWF at 3rd). You can also dip a level of Barbarian for the Whirling Frenzy variant and get another attack.



Would that mean that I can attack with 3 USA and 6 Claws and 1 Bite?


2 unarmed strikes + 4 claws + 1 bite.

You can't flurry and include the claws/bite. Girallon Arms claws overlap your existing claws. (If you really want 6 claw attacks, you need the Double Chakra feat to combine Girallon Arms with the Lamia belt soulmeld). TWF can add another unarmed strike.

This mini-guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=482.0) goes into more detail on how natural weapons work.

[smarti]

Thanks, that does actually help a lot - so then maybe I should forget about the monk dip if I cannot use FoB.
If I decide against monk and just do FotF can I still attack with my UAS and Natural Attacks? I read somewhere that only monks can use different body parts for their UAS (and if I grow Claws they block my hand slot, right?)

If I want to do Bear Warrior would Vow of Poverty make sense? I read somewhere that in Bearform non of my magical items would work anyway.

[Pilo]

There is some ways to get more than 8 attacks at level 10:
3.5:
Mage/Sorcerer : Polymorph into a 10-headed Hydra: 10 attacks as a standard action at full Bab.

[Darrin]

Thanks, that does actually help a lot - so then maybe I should forget about the monk dip if I cannot use FoB.


There are some ways around that... Unorthodox Flurry (Dragon Compendium) could allow you to flurry with claws, or you could take 3 levels of Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East) to flurry with any light melee weapon.

There are some advantages to getting the Monk version of Improved Unarmed Strike... you get slightly better unarmed damage (default Improved Unarmed Strike damage for non-monks is 1d3), you can treat your unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon for some spell effects/abilities, and you get your full Strength bonus on all your unarmed strikes (a non-monk using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack only gets 1/2 Str bonus). Flurry is similar to TWF, but somewhat more restrictive.

However, there are several ways to get the equivalent of the monk's unarmed strike without actually taking monk levels. Fist of the Forest, for example, gets the monk's version of Improved Unarmed Strike, since it refers you to the monk ability in the PHB. Battle Dancer (a base class from Dragon Compendium) also gets the monk version of Improved Unarmed Strike. The "unarmed strike" variant of the Swordsage (Tome of Battle) is frequently used to "fix" the monk.

There's another advantage to getting Improved Unarmed Strike without taking any monk levels: if you also take Superior Unarmed Strike, your unarmed damage scales up by your character level, so you get the equivalent of a small-sized monk's base unarmed strike damage... which is admittedly still somewhat embarassingly weak, but at least it's better than 1d3 at 20th level.



If I decide against monk and just do FotF can I still attack with my UAS and Natural Attacks? I read somewhere that only monks can use different body parts for their UAS (and if I grow Claws they block my hand slot, right?)


Fist of the Forest references the Monk class feature as part of its Unarmed Damage (Ex) ability, so you get all of the advantages of an monk's unarmed strike. But being able to use different body parts isn't a monk-only ability, that's described in the "unarmed attacks" section in the Combat chapter. So you can use feet/elbows/headbutts as unarmed strikes without taking any monk levels.

You can also combine unarmed strikes with natural weapons, and you don't need monk levels for that, either. Combining iterative/manufactured weapons with natural weapons is explained... well, rather poorly explained, but mostly covered in the Monster Manual. Basically, you do your iterative attacks, and any natural weapons you have that aren't currently doing something else (such as wielding a manufactured weapon) are added to your full attack as secondary attacks with a -5 penalty. Multiattack and Improved Multiattack can reduce that penalty.

Growing/acquiring claws does not "block" your hand slot. Actually, there are no rules anywhere that definitively state what happens to your claw attack when you're holding a sword in that claw, so we have to use "common sense", but the general consensus is if your hands turn into claws or are busy holding something else (such as a manufactured weapon), then this doesn't affect your unarmed strikes. If your natural weapon (i.e., claw) is holding something, then it's generally accepted that you can't attack with that natural weapon.



If I want to do Bear Warrior would Vow of Poverty make sense? I read somewhere that in Bearform non of my magical items would work anyway.

I think bearform works more or less like alter form/wild shape... so if you need a magic item to work, get a wilding clasp, or do the "Druid shuffle": drop magic items, turn into a bear, put magic items back on.

As far as Vow of Poverty... don't. You get saddled with a bunch of horrendously restrictive vows, and the benefits you get are hardly ever worth the equivalent magic items you'd normally be carrying around at that level. There are some very rare situations in very restrictive "low/no magic" campaigns where Vow of Poverty might be worthwhile (and even then, only for Druids and/or Totemists), but in all other situations it's generally regarded as a very bad idea.

[Person_Man]

Have you considered Totemist 10, or Totemist 2/Incarnate 3/Ironsoul Forgemaster 5? Either will accomplish your build goal of having a lot of attacks and a strong defense, with a lot less mess.

You could also peruse the list of ways to add extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127463). It's not that difficult to get 8+.

[smarti]

Cool, I really appreciate your help.

I think I will drop Monk and do something like 2 Fighter (for the feats - or ill check if there is any substitution levels that gives me improved unarmed, power attack or great fortitude somewhere else), 2 Totemist, 1 Barb, 3 FotF, xyz Totemrager and forget about the VoP.

Does that make sense? The character is supposed to be a protector of nature. Or is the FotF not worth it? Though that used to be the core of my build ;)

@person man: yea you are probably right, but I somehow like the idea of fighting with my bare (not bear anymore ^^) hand.

[Darrin]

Does that make sense? The character is supposed to be a protector of nature. Or is the FotF not worth it? Though that used to be the core of my build ;)

FotF is generally worth more than 2 levels of monk.

If you're looking to pick up Power Attack or Great Fortitude somewhere else, Unearthed Arcana has a couple variants you might want to check out: the the Overwhelming Attack variant for monks gives you Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush as your first two bonus feats. And 3 levels of Bear Totem Barbarian gets Toughness, Improved Grapple, and Great Fortitude as bonus feats.

As far as getting into FotF as quickly as possible, it's hard to beat the expediency of Fighter 2/Barb 1/Totemist 2/FotF 3. Feats would probably be:
1) Feat: Great Fortitude
1) Human: Power Attack
1) Fighter: Improved Unarmed Strike
2) Fighter: TWF (i.e., "flurry of blows")
3) Feat: Superior Unarmed Strike
6) Feat: {Open} (either Leap Attack, Extra Rage, or Improved Natural Attack)
9) Feat: Snap Kick

If you start with Fighter 1/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2, you can swap TWF for Improved Trip without having to take Combat Experwaste. Then you can add Knock-Down (SRD version (http://srd.realmspire.com/divineFeats.html#knock-down)), so every time you attack and do at least 10 damage, you get a free trip, and every time you successfully trip, you get an extra attack.

[smarti]

That looks cool, thanks ;)

TWF I will have to debate with my DM I think - that would basically mean that I could do a third attack with my offhand at -2? (assuming that I have a BAB of /2)
How does superior unarmed strike interact with FotF - do you go 2 Steps up the ladder or just one?

[Person_Man]

Cool, I really appreciate your help.

I think I will drop Monk and do something like 2 Fighter (for the feats - or ill check if there is any substitution levels that gives me improved unarmed, power attack or great fortitude somewhere else), 2 Totemist, 1 Barb, 3 FotF, xyz Totemrager and forget about the VoP.

Does that make sense? The character is supposed to be a protector of nature. Or is the FotF not worth it? Though that used to be the core of my build ;)

@person man: yea you are probably right, but I somehow like the idea of fighting with my bare (not bear anymore ^^) hand.

In general, my opinion is that you should avoid heavy dipping and multi-classing if you are going to be in a campaign that goes up to level 7+. Having the highest level available of scaled class abilities (full casting progression, psionics, soulmelds, vestiges, and disciplines) is almost always stronger then the class abilities that you get from multi-classing.

In this example, a Totemist 2/Whatever X/Whatever Y/Whatever Z can bind soulmelds to the Totem chakra, and gets a bunch of of other moderately useful bonus Feats or similar abilities. Whereas a Totemist 10 can bind soulmelds to the Totem, Crown, Feet, Hands, Arms, Brow, or Shoulders chakra, and gets more soulmelds, essentia, and chakra binds. This opens up access to higher level options, such as Double Bind, Pounce, Telepathy, Ethereal Movement, Save or Daze, Globe of Darkness/Greater Invisibility, plus a variety of buffs to natural weapons. And perhaps more importantly, soulmelds and chakra binds can be changed every day, giving you a huge range of flexibility if you want to change tactics for any reason. Whereas bonus Feats and other abilities gained through dipping cannot.

[Darrin]

TWF I will have to debate with my DM I think - that would basically mean that I could do a third attack with my offhand at -2? (assuming that I have a BAB of /2)


If you have enough BAB to get two iterative attacks, then yes, you could use TWF to get three unarmed strikes: -2 primary/-2 offhand/-7 primary. TWF penalties only apply to your primary/offhand attacks, so secondary natural weapons (claws, bite, etc.) are not affected.

The only issue with the rules is it's not clear if your unarmed strike can be both your primary and off-hand weapon at the same time. The FAQ seems to think so, but the FAQ tends to waver a lot between notoriously unreliable and stupefyingly wrong. In general practice, it's generally not worth the bother to browbeat the unarmed fighters by getting all nitpicky with the vague rules on unarmed attacks.



How does superior unarmed strike interact with FotF - do you go 2 Steps up the ladder or just one?

That's another issue that is still being argued about. According to a very literal interpretation of Rules As Written ("RAW"), you only get the damage increase if your unarmed strike damage is currently 1d8 or 1d10. If you have another feat/ability that increases your unarmed damage above that, then by RAW this class ability does nothing for you. However, most DMs I'm familiar with just treat it as a generic "increase the damage by one/two size categories". Melee meatbags already have a tough time keeping up with the quadratic casters, unarmed fighters even more so. There's really no need to make their lives any worse than they already are.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also keep in mind that having a pile of attacks does you no good if you can't use them. Which generally means some form of Pounce. Otherwise, your entire attack progression is move + standard action for a single attack.

This is one of the reasons monks are so sub-par... if they use their extra movement, they can't Flurry. Mutually exclusive class abilities do not synergize.

[smarti]

I have a build now with 2 fighter, 1 barb, 2 totem, 3 fotf - averaging around 40 dmg / round (stupid standard creeps with ac 18) at an ac of ~ 24 and some stuff to play around with (rage, trance, shape some things)

now I thought about what person man said - focusing more on incarnum, and I think he might be right - what do you think about

whisper gnome, 3 totem, 2 barb, 2 incarnate and then rager from that point on focusing on the incarnate class - does that make sens? (haven't really gone through all the details)

alternatively what person man proposed, so 2 totem, 3 incarnate and ironsoul from that point on (though I kind of like the idea of playing a gnome :x)

does that make sense or is it better to do totem all the way, or incarnate all the way?

[Person_Man]

Pure Totemist opens up all of the chakra binds (except Soul), and will offer you the most soulmelds and chakra binds.

Totem Rager will give you a nice boost to essentia and damage when you Rage, progresses Rage, and opens up most chakra binds (but not Waist, Throat, or Heart).

Ironsoul Forgemaster offers excellent defense and an amazing capstone (Save or Daze on every strike with your weapon), and has a weird but strong chakra bind progression (doesn't open Crown, Feet, Hands, or Brow, but does open Arms, Shoulders, Waist, and Heart. And it opens Waist sooner then any other build, including pure Incarnate).

All three are excellent choices. So I suggest that you take a look at the soulmelds and chakra binds (including those online at the WotC website, in Dragon Magic, and Dragon Magazine #350 pg 86) you find most interesting, and make your build choices around them.

[Bloodgruve]

I've been looking at a Warforged Totemist/Bard build.

Warforged w/Jaws of Death for 1 Bite and 1 Slam
Totemsit w/Garillon Arms, Roc's Span (Dragon Mag), Dragons Tail (Dragon Magic IIRC)

These give you 9 attacks by 2nd level.

Throw in Bard's Inspire Courage, Badge of Valor, Song of the Heart, Words of Creation and Inspirational Boost for up to +14 to each attack and damage. Dragonfire Inspiration would be nice if you could get it.

Knowledge Devotion feat for up to +5 attack n damage.

Improved Natural Attack: Claws for more damage.

Multiattack feat if your DM lets you take it with Totemist for -2's instead of -5's for secondary attacks.

I think Imp Unarmed Strike may add a couple attacks also.

Bard will give you some spells to play with and will help your group.

GL
Blood~