Incarnate Construct Warforged

[betelgeuce]

Can anyone explain to me how RAW would effect the Warforged Race with the Incarnate Construct Template taken?
http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz35kr?Converting-the-Incarnate-Construct-template
Do you lose your machine type? Do you lose the immunities? Are Racial Abilities, "Special Abilities"?

[VGLordR2]

The Subtype of the Warforged (Living Construct) will not change. The information on that can be found at the back of the MMIII (pg. 215). The Warforged really only loses the Composite Plating and the Light Fortification.

[KicktheCAN]

That is incorrect. Living Construct is a subtype of construct. As the Warforged is no longer a construct it cannot have the subtype of Living Construct.

[White_Drake]

Please don't use this as a lame way to get an LA 2 Template at 1st level.

[betelgeuce]

Believe me, you should tell the spell-hording Kobolt to please not use his templates to get around having to prepare spells as a wizard. I never used templates outside this but the CR of this player is killing the party which constitutes stepping it up some for the sake of surviving. Also does that mean he loses the immunities as well as the resistance to healing and no natural healing?

[Morph Bark]

Please don't use this as a lame way to get an LA 2 Template at 1st level.

Your ECL can't be lower than your HD, afaik, so the LA would get auto-bumped to LA+0 if you don't add another template and Incarnate Construct would make a Warforged rather weak without the addition of another template. However, this means you cannot add acquired templates and most inherited templates come from being bred in a certain way, which is impossible with Warforged (unless one of your parents was an Incarnate Construct Warforged with working... parts), so very few templates would make sense to work with it.


Is the PC in question of a higher or lower effective CR than the party? And why?

[betelgeuce]

He is a very much higher CR than the rest of the party. The rest of the party sits on a CR of their level just about. With the exception of one other player who is basically in cahoots about dampening our fun. Our average CR is 6; while his CR is closer to 10 with all his Dragon Templates. I was just curious how this would work because I've seen people go at it before and I saw the negative template level and thought it would be super cheesy to put a another template over top of this one and make a tank that eats massive damage.

[Aegis013]

...and make a tank that eats massive damage.

Not exactly what you were looking for, but I offer this.

If you can use setting specific stuff, you can use troll-blooded feat (Greyhawk specific from Dragon Magazine 219, I believe) which provides Regeneration 1/Fire or Acid but causes you to become fatigued in sunlight. (prereq Toughness, meaning you need either to have flaws or be human/strongheart halfling to use it)

In conjunction with Saint Template (BoED), Bone Knight PrC (Five Nations, Eberron specific), and the Elemental Ritual of Fire (Savage Species), you can become immune to most damage.

It's pretty cheesy and uses setting specific material from more than one setting, plus the troll-blooded feat is considered pretty overpowered, and Bone Knight and Saint can be considered mutually exclusive. So unless your DM is very cheese lenient, don't expect to be able to do this. It can come online by ECL 11; Paladin 4/Bone Knight 4 +2 LA Saint, +1 LA Fire Ritual.

As far as becoming immune to the fatigued in sunlight... well, you figure that out, this is just a ridiculously cheesy way to be really tough. Though there are still ways passed the defense. Things such as Searing Spell come to mind.

[Chronos]

Why are you tracking the CR of player characters? CR isn't relevant for PCs, but for the monsters they fight against. What's relevant for PCs is level or equivalent level.

[betelgeuce]

I just guessed on other peoples cr. We all just wondered how a level 6 (whole party) was deminsion dooring us into a prison we didn't want to be in and screwing the party. While we could resist it new players don't question being teleported to death. On a side note thanks for the advice. I'll look into it.

[White_Drake]

Ohh, man we have the same problem in our group. Everybody is high level, we've been playing the same characters once a week for the past several years. We're all about ECL 18-19 if I had to guess. But one guy, is playing some broken homebrew with a fourteen level progression of a sun giant. For those unfamiliar with the creature its on page 110 of MMII. It's got 13 HD, Stoneshape at will, somewhere around +30 Str etc. Unfortunately the DM approved it somehow. We think it was late and he made a mistake, because normally he's a superb DM. Unfortunately, he can't very well just tell the player his character isn't allowed anymore. We're pretty much Hack N' Slash, so our characters are essentially obsolete. It's gotten so bad we're thinking about assassinating the character.

[Mithril Leaf]

In response to the original topic, you can indeed apply Incarnate Construct to a Warforged. Since It doesn't change subtype, you do keep the living construct subtype. If you apply acquired templates prior to taking incarnate construct, you lose the LA from them, but not the other way around. I like phenric, which technically can be put on warforged, and of course lloth-touched. It is very cheesy of course.

[Morph Bark]

I just guessed on other peoples cr. We all just wondered how a level 6 (whole party) was deminsion dooring us into a prison we didn't want to be in and screwing the party. While we could resist it new players don't question being teleported to death. On a side note thanks for the advice. I'll look into it.

Normally templates shouldn't give SLAs that are of a higher level than a caster of your level should be able to cast, with the exception of some 2nd-level spells being available at level 1 as SLAs sometimes. Rather than throw on Incarnate Construct immediately, check what templates from Dragon magazine he used.

Then again, using Dragon magazine material should be done with care in the first place.


Ohh, man we have the same problem in our group. Everybody is high level, we've been playing the same characters once a week for the past several years. We're all about ECL 18-19 if I had to guess. But one guy, is playing some broken homebrew with a fourteen level progression of a sun giant. For those unfamiliar with the creature its on page 110 of MMII. It's got 13 HD, Stoneshape at will, somewhere around +30 Str etc. Unfortunately the DM approved it somehow. We think it was late and he made a mistake, because normally he's a superb DM. Unfortunately, he can't very well just tell the player his character isn't allowed anymore. We're pretty much Hack N' Slash, so our characters are essentially obsolete. It's gotten so bad we're thinking about assassinating the character.

Sounds more like bad handling of the progression and the combination with your playstyle, I'd say. Was the Sun Giant's LA even taken into account in that progression? Because it is likely at least 4, if it even has one (and if it doesn't, it shouldn't be playable at all). Otherwise, any Giant is a pretty good beatstick melee, so if the rest of your party is mainly melee damagers, then of course you're going to feel overshadowed in that regard, unless you use widely different builds and include battlefield control as well.

[CIDE]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but uh...A Renegade Mastermaker retains their type but gains the Living Construct subtype. As in a Humanoid+Living Construct. It doesn't only exist on Constructs. That said wouldn't an Incarnate Warforged still have the Living Construct subtype?

Edit:
Reread part of the Renegade Mastermaker. Seems like a typo but here it is...



Construct Exemplar: At 10th level, you have reached your version of perfection and become a living construct. Your type changes to Living Construct and you gain all the traits of that type (see the Eberron Campaign setting). You are treated as a warforged for the purpose of meeting any requirements or prerequisites. You also gain a bonus Warforged feat. You can even select a Warforged feat that normally requires you to be 1st level, such as Mithral Body.

So it either makes a new type or was intended to say subtype.

[Arcanist]

Believe me, you should tell the spell-hording Kobolt to please not use his templates to get around having to prepare spells as a wizard. I never used templates outside this but the CR of this player is killing the party which constitutes stepping it up some for the sake of surviving. Also does that mean he loses the immunities as well as the resistance to healing and no natural healing?

a Kobold (DW or otherwise) couldn't take Spell-hoarding if it wanted to :smallconfused: Its not a true dragon.

Now then, I'm a strong supporter of the whole Warforged Incarnate Living Construct gaining the Humanoid type and keeping the Living Construct Subtype since the template doesn't specify anything against it... and unless there is a piece of information that specifies otherwise I will continue to believe it :smalltongue:

[Necroticplague]

a Kobold (DW or otherwise) couldn't take Spell-hoarding if it wanted to :smallconfused: Its not a true dragon.


It is if it's dragonwrought.

[Arcanist]

It is if it's dragonwrought.


This is the most important, though. Races of the Dragon, page 69: "The information here expands that list to include all true dragons published in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS products to date." I'm not seeing kobolds in that list.

No, they're not :smallconfused: took like 6 years for people to notice that list and it does not include Kobolds (DW or otherwise) meaning they are NOT True Dragon. :smallsigh:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll assume that he's gone something like Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake with the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and probably has most of his levels in Stalwart Battle Sorcerer and then various prestige classes. He may have a single level of Wizard for maybe Conjurer ACFs. He currently casts spells as a Wizard three levels higher than his character level. If he's included Riddled, then he's sort of screwed himself due to its wording on how it casts spells and its interaction with Spellhoarding switching his casting, but that's ultimately up to your DM.

Talk to your DM outside the game, bring up your issues with this character/player and the lack of fun he's causing, and see if you can come up with a solution outside of play. If you can't work something out, then see if the other players would want to play without that particular player and that DM, or just quit and find a different group.

If your DM won't work it out and you don't consider quitting to be an option, just bring in the same type of character as what he's playing. Another option would be to take it one step further and introduce a PC who's an even stronger Kobold: Pun-Pun. In any case, this is a very immature course of action and your problems should be dealt with outside the game, rather than during play.



No, they're not :smallconfused: took like 6 years for people to notice that list and it does not include Kobolds (DW or otherwise) meaning they are NOT True Dragon. :smallsigh:


This is the most important, though. Races of the Dragon, page 69: "The information here expands that list to include all true dragons published in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS products to date." I'm not seeing kobolds in that list.

Dragonwrought wasn't published before Draconomicon, so of course they don't appear. Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245069#4) in that same thread I pointed out the fact that all dragons are true dragons by default, and that a dragon is only not a true dragon if it does not use the age categories of true dragons. Dragonwrought Kobolds do indeed use such age categories, so they are definitely true dragons. That issue has already been discussed elsewhere, don't derail this thread with it.

[Arcanist]

Dragonwrought wasn't published before Draconomicon, so of course they don't appear. Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245069#4) in that same thread I pointed out the fact that all dragons are true dragons by default, and that a dragon is only not a true dragon if it does not use the age categories of true dragons. Dragonwrought Kobolds do indeed use such age categories, so they are definitely true dragons. That issue has already been discussed elsewhere, don't derail this thread with it.

... I even stated the source as Races of the Dragon... and you missed it... How? :smallconfused: Unless you want to tell me that Dragonwrought kobold doesnt appear in Races of the Dragon :smallconfused:

It specifically states that the list over rides every other list (including the Dragonomicon)

and I agree lets not derail the thread with another DW Kobolds = True Dragons discussion. :smallamused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

... I even stated the source as Races of the Dragon... and you missed it... How? :smallconfused: Unless you want to tell me that Dragonwrought kobold doesnt appear in Races of the Dragon :smallconfused:

It specifically states that the list over rides every other list (including the Dragonomicon)

and I agree lets not derail the thread with another DW Kobolds = True Dragons discussion. :smallamused:

Don't just cherry-pick a sentence completely out of context from the whole quote:


The half-dragon template presents special attacks and
special qualities for half-dragon versions of the ten varieties
of true dragons described in the Monster Manual. The information
here expands that list to include all true dragons
published in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS products to date. It
supersedes any other previously published information
on this topic (such as from Draconomicon).

That list only exists for purposes of what dragon types you can have a Half-Dragon version of. It is not an all-inclusive list of every true dragon in the entire game, only what true dragons you can have a half-version of. The all-encompassing statements on identifying true dragons versus lesser dragons from page 4 of the Draconomicon still stand. All dragons are true dragons by default, and they are only not true dragons if they do not use the age categories, which Dragonwrought Kobolds definitely do. I will no longer discuss this issue in this particular thread, you've derailed it enough already.

[CIDE]

So, back to the Incarnate Construct Warforged, eh?

[Arcanist]

Don't just cherry-pick a sentence completely out of context from the whole quote:

That list only exists for purposes of what dragon types you can have a Half-Dragon version of. It is not an all-inclusive list of every true dragon in the entire game, only what true dragons you can have a half-version of. The all-encompassing statements on identifying true dragons versus lesser dragons from page 4 of the Draconomicon still stand. All dragons are true dragons by default, and they are only not true dragons if they do not use the age categories, which Dragonwrought Kobolds definitely do.


HALF-DRAGONS BEYOND
THE MONSTER MANUAL
The half-dragon template presents special attacks and
special qualities for half-dragon versions of the ten varieties
of true dragons described in the Monster Manual. The information
here expands that list to include all true dragons
published in DUNGEONS & DRAGONS products to date. It
supersedes any other previously published information
on this topic (such as from Draconomicon).

So because a creature cannot be a Half-Dragon [Dragonwroght Kobold] that means Dragonwroght kobold is not a True Dragon.


I will no longer discuss this issue in this particular thread, you've derailed it enough already.

Quite right, just remember it takes 2 for a discussion begin, making you are 4 times as more responsible for the "derailing" then me.


So, back to the Incarnate Construct Warforged, eh?

Since the Incarnate construct template does not remove the subtype and only effects the type of the creature I'd say that the Living Construct subtype remains, however the fact the that Warforged no longer has the Construct type would nullify the Living Construct subtype.

[CIDE]

Since the Incarnate construct template does not remove the subtype and only effects the type of the creature I'd say that the Living Construct subtype remains, however the fact the that Warforged no longer has the Construct type would nullify the Living Construct subtype.

Even with the example given above explicitly showing the Living Construct subtype modifying somethingother than a construct? Which could very well be anything that qualifies for that prestige class.

[Arcanist]

Even with the example given above explicitly showing the Living Construct subtype modifying something other than a construct? Which could very well be anything that qualifies for that prestige class.

Most people believe that to be an error, however currently I can find no prerequisites for being a Living construct so sure a humanoid can be a living construct

[Zombulian]

Stay Away From This Template! It Is The Path To The Dark Side

[CIDE]

Stay Away From This Template! It Is The Path To The Dark Side

That depends on its usage. Reallythe only cheese I could potentially see is specifically using with with warforged in order to gain two extra LA. Which could go towards something like Phrenic or Dragonspawn abomination for better spellcasting/psionics.

Otherwise it's more of a cool plot point. Or use it with a Warforged living the Data lifestyle. It wants to be more human and goes through all the classes to make itself more like a living creature. Until eventually someone in their party gets 9th level spells. Viola!