Need A Feat for A Young Warblade

[Palanan]

I'm going 'round and 'round trying to decide on the final feat for an NPC build. He's a young swordsman par excellence who will be an ally of the PCs in my campaign.

Right now he's a human Martial Rogue 2/Ranger 1/Fighter 1, using the Hit-and-Run fighter variant from Drow of the Underdark. His feats are:


1st:
...standard - Weapon Finesse
...human bonus - Combat Reflexes
...martial rogue bonus - Deft Opportunist
...flaw - ???

2nd:
...martial rogue bonus - Intimidating Strike

3rd:
...standard - Knowledge Devotion

4th:
...fighter bonus - ???

His favored enemy is human, and he's maxed out Knowledge (local) to use Knowledge Devotion. Right now I need something for his fighter bonus feat. I'm willing to consider just about any source. Any suggestions?

[Ziegander]

I'm going 'round and 'round trying to decide on the final feat for an NPC build. He's a young swordsman par excellence who will be an ally of the PCs in my campaign.

Right now he's a human Martial Rogue 2/Ranger 1/Fighter 1, using the Hit-and-Run fighter variant from Drow of the Underdark. His feats are:


1st:
...standard - Weapon Finesse
...human bonus - Combat Reflexes
...martial rogue bonus - Deft Opportunist
...flaw - ???

2nd:
...martial rogue bonus - Intimidating Strike

3rd:
...standard - Knowledge Devotion

4th:
...fighter bonus - ???

His favored enemy is human, and he's maxed out Knowledge (local) to use Knowledge Devotion. Right now I need something for his fighter bonus feat. I'm willing to consider just about any source. Any suggestions?

Why intimidating strike? I would think you couldn't go wrong with Combat Expertise + Improved Disarm/Feint. It's not optimal, but then again the rest of your build isn't super optimized anyway, and it's just an NPC.

Aside from that, dropping Intimidating Strike in favor of something to ensure him more AoOs, like Karmic Strike would be desirable. So maybe:

1st - Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Weapon Finesse
2nd - Karmic Strike
3rd - Knowledge Devotion
4th - Deft Opportunist

?

[Malachei]

He's TWF? Will your build be limited to level 4? Are ToB classes an option?

As Ziegander has advised, Karmic Strike is an excellent choice, and also fine for flavor.

[JadePhoenix]

Combat Expertise -> Improved Feint -> Surprising Riposte
You're going to need it to consistently get Dex to damage from Hit-and-Run fighter.
Also, buy marbles.

EDIT: Also, are you sure you're going to give up sneak attack? It always triggers when Hit-and-Run triggers.

[Palanan]

Really, what I'm looking for is a build that represents an expert swordsman with the rapier. This will be an NPC who joins the characters at the start of the campaign, and will be in and out thereafter. He'll start at 4th level and may add a couple levels as the story progresses.

I generally don't use ToB, although I did consider Martial Study as a feat. Unfortunately the once-per-encounter limit on maneuvers won't help this guy much, since I have a large ship-to-ship battle planned for early on and he'll be in the thick of things. Something like Steel Wind would be nice once per round, but once per encounter (i.e., once during the entire battle) didn't really seem worth it. I'd been thinking that Intimidating Strike plus the Never Outnumbered skill trick might make for a nice combo if he's facing a group of enemy sailors.

I do like the Improved Disarm approach, though, since it's useful and fits his flavor. That said, I'll freely admit I'm lost among all the options here; I usually play divine casters and don't know all the tricks of the melee trade. The build in my first post reflects some earlier advice I was given, but I'll certainly consider other options. Hit-and-Run is by no means a requirement, and I don't mind trading that level for something else.

[JadePhoenix]

Really, what I'm looking for is a build that represents an expert swordsman with the rapier.
If that is all you're looking for and since you already considered Martial Study, I'd say Warblade. Wall of Blades is the most reliable parry mechanic in D&D and you can deal respectable damage even with a rapier. Warblade's recovery mechanic even allows you to reuse maneuvers easily - all you have to do is take a round without using maneuvers.
Also, his d12 hit dice will help considerably in a large battle.

[Ziegander]

Really, what I'm looking for is a build that represents an expert swordsman with the rapier. This will be an NPC who joins the characters at the start of the campaign, and will be in and out thereafter. He'll start at 4th level and may add a couple levels as the story progresses.

[...]

I do like the Improved Disarm approach, though, since it's useful and fits his flavor. [...] Hit-and-Run is by no means a requirement, and I don't mind trading that level for something else.

Well, Improved Disarm isn't the most optimal play, but if you know you're going to be facing a lot of armed, medium, Humanoid opponents, it can work. The biggest problem with Disarming, especially with a rapier, is trying to Disarm weapons held in two hands, or weapons larger than medium, or both.

The Hit-and-Run Fighter level is a great idea, no need to lose that. You might consider dropping the Ranger dip though, and taking Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) as a 1-level dip at 1st level for both Weapon Finesse and Dodge (equivalent). Then you wouldn't need a flaw to get Combat Expertise and Combat Reflexes, and if you wanted, you could still use the flaw to pick up Karmic Strike at 1st level. Mobility at 2nd would be nice, and will set you up to take Elusive Target at 6th level, a wonderful feat.

[Malachei]

ToB is great for the image you seem to have in mind, I think: It allows exactly the Swordsmaster maneuvers (Wall of Blades, for instance). Also, it would enable your NPC to make a difference occasionally (i.e. Disarming Strike maneuver once in a while versus Improved Disarm every turn).

You may want to keep a level of Rogue, perhaps with Able Learner to support the skillmonkey function, if you want
Three levels of Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse and Int to damage.
Perhaps Ranger for TWF, or grab as Fighter, if you don't need the Ranger otherwise
If no ToB, from there, go Fighter because you need a lot of feats

EDIT: TWF-Swordsaged, :)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by JadePhoenix
...since you already considered Martial Study, I'd say Warblade.

Ordinarily I'm not a big fan of ToB, but the warblade does look...interesting, although I'm not at all familiar with the maneuvers and etc. He'd need two levels of warblade to take Wall of Blades, which would likely mean something else has to go. Hmm.


Originally Posted by Ziegander
Well, Improved Disarm isn't the most optimal play, but if you know you're going to be facing a lot of armed, medium, Humanoid opponents, it can work.

In fact, that's precisely what he's been fighting for virtually his entire career, and that's what he'll be fighting a good deal of in the coming campaign, so it does fit.

He probably won't get involved with TWF, and I'm very lukewarm about anything involving the swashbuckler. A touch of warblade might work...although, as someone who's never run anything from ToB before, it seems like a lot to keep track of.

[Cieyrin]

A mix of Swashbuckler, Fighter and Warblade could serve you well in achieving appropriate proficiency as a swift people fighter with an emphasis on quick wits and fancy footwork. Swash 2/Warblade 2 means sets you up for Insightful Strike at Swash 3, going into Fighter for bonus feats and opening up Daring Warrior for further development between Fighter and Warblade, while still advancing Grace and Dodge without further Swash levels, especially when your Warblade levels start counting as Fighter levels.

[Palanan]

Quick wits and fancy footwork are part of what I'm going for, but I'd really like to do it without swashbuckler.

I really like the martial rogue, and ranger is nice but not essential. The favored enemy bonus is a mild assist, and I'd been hoping to either boost that or somehow combine it with Knowledge Devotion. Unfortunately, I can't find much to improve favored enemy at all, and although there were some storyline aspects to the ranger level, it's not essential.

So, that would end up with something like Martial Rogue 2/Warblade 2, and me with almost zero experience running anything out of ToB.

...And this is what we call a segue, into suggestions for maneuvers and stances for the warblade side of things.

:smalltongue:

[Malachei]

There numerous handbooks and builds your favorite search engine will reveal.

Depending on your build and the higher level maneuvers' prerequisites, you may want to reverse engineer from top to lower level.

Going in the opposite direction, I'd state Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics as nice. I'd consider dipping SWS at an initiator level of 5 to grab the Diamond Mind save-countering series.

[Cieyrin]

Quick wits and fancy footwork are part of what I'm going for, but I'd really like to do it without swashbuckler.

I really like the martial rogue, and ranger is nice but not essential. The favored enemy bonus is a mild assist, and I'd been hoping to either boost that or somehow combine it with Knowledge Devotion. Unfortunately, I can't find much to improve favored enemy at all, and although there were some storyline aspects to the ranger level, it's not essential.

So, that would end up with something like Martial Rogue 2/Warblade 2, and me with almost zero experience running anything out of ToB.

...And this is what we call a segue, into suggestions for maneuvers and stances for the warblade side of things.

:smalltongue:

Well, if you insist, though Insightful Strike is a nice method for replacing Strength with Intelligence.

In any case, you probably want to look at the Diamond Mind maneuvers that let you use Concentration checks for damage boosts, like the Nightmare Blade series, as well as Punishing Stance, which you can essentially rename Lunge for your purposes. Essentially, mixing Diamond Mind and Iron Heart will serve you well.

[Palanan]

Aha, thank you. It's very good to know where to start.

I'd looked at Punishing Stance before, when I was considering it for the Martial Study feat, but a penalty to AC while surrounded by foes didn't seem like a good thing. Steel Wind, on the other hand, looks great.

Likewise for Emerald Razor. Yeah, that's worth losing a level of ranger.

:smalltongue:

[Roguenewb]

When I want to make a swordsman of great dueling skill, and I don't wanna use magic or a ToB class, I usually use some combination of Swashbuckler/Rogue and Daring Outlaw. For level 4, I recommend:

Rogue 1
Human=Craven
1st=Expeditious Dodge
Flaw=Combat Expertise
Flaw=Improved Feint
Swashbuckler 1
Weapon Finesse (Bonus)
Swashbuckler 2
Improved Disarm
Swashbuckler 3

At this point, he can make a feint as move action, and if he succeeds, he deals 1d6+1d6+4+Int+Str.

Swashbuckler is built from the ground up to do this exact thing, and ignoring it seems....strange.

[Palanan]

So, looking through the first level maneuvers available to a warblade, these seem to fit my concept:

Leading the Attack
Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Steel Wind
Stone Bones

--and Bolstering Voice seems like a good stance for someone leading a squad into battle. Are these workable choices? I've never selected maneuvers before, so I'm just guessing based on how useful the effect seems to be.

[Cieyrin]

I'd go Charging Minotaur over Stone Bones, as, unless you're expecting it to serve as a 'Invicible Captain leads the charge' thing against a bunch of level 1s, it's not terribly good. I mean, it'll stop hoards of sailors with daggers, sabres and rapiers from cutting you to ribbons for a round but there may be better options.

Also, I was under the impression you were going for the Martial Rogue 2/Warblade 2 build, meaning your IL should be 3 and thus your 4th learned maneuver can be 2nd level. Meaning you can pick up something like Emerald Razor, Wall of Blades or even Tactical Strike. I also wonder what you intend to use your Martial Rogue bonus feat for, as Weapon Finesse has a pesky BAB +1 requirement, so you may want to go Warblade 1/Martial Rogue 2/Warblade +1 so you can start with Weapon Finesse and then use the bonus feat for something like Rapid Assault, White Raven Defense or Martial Study for a maneuver from whatever school you favor.

[Palanan]

Thanks for the suggestions there, and for pointing out the issue with initiator level. In fact, that part...kind of confuses me. I'd been thinking that Martial Rogue wouldn't qualify, but it sounds like it does. This is good news (although still confoosed). Is there a list of what other classes qualify as 1/2 IL? For some reason I'd thought it was only Fighter or other martial adepts.

Also, thanks for the reminder about Weapon Finesse. Feat juggling will need to happen, indeed. And, speaking of feats...if there's room, now or later, how well would Deft Opportunist work with this build? He'll probably be in a lot of situations where he'd be making AoOs.

And it looks like he's going to have to pass on anything from Stone Dragon. If I'm reading the discipline right, those manuevers can only be used while in contact with the ground. Not too helpful for naval encounters a thousand miles out to sea...

[Daftendirekt]

Any non-maneuver using class level counts as 1/2 an initiator level.

[Cieyrin]

Thanks for the suggestions there, and for pointing out the issue with initiator level. In fact, that part...kind of confuses me. I'd been thinking that Martial Rogue wouldn't qualify, but it sounds like it does. This is good news (although still confoosed). Is there a list of what other classes qualify as 1/2 IL? For some reason I'd thought it was only Fighter or other martial adepts.

Also, thanks for the reminder about Weapon Finesse. Feat juggling will need to happen, indeed. And, speaking of feats...if there's room, now or later, how well would Deft Opportunist work with this build? He'll probably be in a lot of situations where he'd be making AoOs.

And it looks like he's going to have to pass on anything from Stone Dragon. If I'm reading the discipline right, those manuevers can only be used while in contact with the ground. Not too helpful for naval encounters a thousand miles out to sea...

As Daft said, any non-initiator class provides 1/2 their class level to IL.

You'll probably have the Dex to really take advantage of Combat Reflexes, so I don't see a reason not to pursue it. You could have your Martial Rogue feat as Combat Reflexes at character level 2 and Deft Opportunist at 3rd but I'd then pursue stuff like Hold the Line to generate further AoOs, as well as perhaps Stormguard Warrior.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks for the suggestions. Combat Reflexes is a definite. Hold the Line looks excellent too, but that'll have to be for later.

Right now here's what I have:


1st:
...standard - Improved Initiative
...human bonus - Combat Reflexes
...martial rogue bonus - Deft Opportunist
...flaw - Education

2nd:
...martial rogue bonus - Weapon Finesse

3rd:
...standard - Knowledge Devotion

Improved Initiative is more of a default/filler feat, since I'm not sure what else to put in that slot. I considered Heroic Destiny, because that could work with Knowledge Devotion...but it's only once per day, and if you roll a 1 then it's pointless.

So, Improved Initiative is at least reliable. But are there any other feats he could take at first level that would be more useful?
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EDIT: Also, I'm seeing that the trouble with a rapier is the very modest damage output. Thus, two questions:

1. There's a Pathfinder feat called Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/pel-s-lab/dervish-dance), which adds your Dex bonus to both attack and damage. Unfortunately as written it's exclusive to the scimitar. Would there be any balance issues with tweaking this to allow the rapier?

2. On a limited budget (say under 1000 gp) are there any weapon enhancements that would give another couple points of damage?
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