Paranoid Wizards in Media

[Flickerdart]

I'm kind of tired of people down in d20 endlessly complaining that nobody would be so paranoid as to have a suite of all-day buffs on, well, all day. This thread is dedicated to powerful figures in media who went to ridiculous lengths to protect themselves.

Our first example will be Older than Dirt. The very first lich, Koschei the Deathless, of Slavic folklore. Being the first didn't make him dumb, and so he hid his phylactery on the island Buyan, which is not only hidden in the ocean but can also disappear. Surely that is paranoid enough. Nope! Koschei then buries it (a good way of blocking those pesky divinations). If you find the ocean, find the island and then find the chest and manage to open it, the phylactery will run away, because it's hidden inside of a hare. If you kill the hare, the phylactery flies away, because it is inside of a duck that was inside the hare. If you manage to catch the duck, then be prepared to take a few whacks at the egg inside of this duck (given as difficult to destroy by some legends) because there's another level of protection for the phylactery.

So that's six (ocean, buried, chest, hare, duck, egg) levels of protection for his life. Can we think of an even more paranoid mage?

[Manga Shoggoth]

"...And may [redacted] strike me dead if he wasn't killed by the first thick-headed hero to come along!" (The wisest man in the world on suspiciously simillar methods of keeping your heart safe - from The Bridge of Birds by Barry Hughart).

The Wisest Man in the World had it right, of course. The antagonist of the story was an even bigger idiot than that.

[Killer Angel]

Conan's stories, are often full of wizards that live in their isolated towers, trick death, don't venture out of their secure shelter (totally unaccessible to normal men) and act through minions or spells.
The fact that Conan kills them, it's only 'cause he's Conan, but this don't diminish the fact that they represent the embodiment of "unapproachable wizard in impregnable tower" clichè (which is the basic version of D&D's approach: "of course the wizard lives in its own demiplane").

[Radar]

If Expanded Universe counts, then Palpatine would fit the bill, since he probably had more clones of himself then stormtroopers.

Wizards of the Unseen University in the early books were fairly paranoid as well, even if through mundane means - tuning all floorboards in your apartament in order to locate every person by sound is kind of far on the scale.

[Grinner]

Voldemort fits this to a T. Shattered his soul into so many fragments, stored them in numerous mementos, and placed those mementos under the guard of just about every curse and corrupted creature known to wizardkind.

[Jan Mattys]

Voldemort fits this to a T. Shattered his soul into so many fragments, stored them in numerous mementos, and placed those mementos under the guard of just about every curse and corrupted creature known to wizardkind.

...yeah, an didn't think about stealing a nytroglicerine truck and parking it just outside of Harry's house during summer.

:smallamused:

[Grinner]

...yeah, an didn't think about stealing a nytroglicerine truck and parking it just outside of Harry's house during summer.

They make those? :smallamused:

[Cespenar]

I'm extremely unlearned in the comic book medium, but I hear Dr. Doom has countless Doombot lookalikes, which, combined with author bias, pretty much makes him immortal (because each one that you can kill turn out to be, surprise, a Doombot).

And since science is pretty much equal to magic (perhaps even sillier) in the comic book universe (or was it multiverse), this probably qualifies him for a paranoid "wizard".

[Killer Angel]

They make those? :smallamused:

Of course (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046268/)! :smallbiggrin:

(followed also by some remake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorcerer_(film))...)

[maglag]

So that's six (ocean, buried, chest, hare, duck, egg) levels of protection for his life. Can we think of an even more paranoid mage?

-Six. Not the minimum sixty levels of protection that d20 caster defenders usually claim.
-Neither of those are things that you need to renew daily/hourly/every round.
-Four of them can be defeated by a single big box and seting it on fire for enough time (put chest inside, let it burn, toast hare, fry duck, boil egg, profit). The ocean and buried can also be defeated by munane means.

[comicshorse]

I'm extremely unlearned in the comic book medium, but I hear Dr. Doom has countless Doombot lookalikes, which, combined with author bias, pretty much makes him immortal (because each one that you can kill turn out to be, surprise, a Doombot).

And since science is pretty much equal to magic (perhaps even sillier) in the comic book universe (or was it multiverse), this probably qualifies him for a paranoid "wizard".

Doom is also a sorcerer of such power that it was thought he might be picked to be the next Sorcerer Supreme when Strange lost the job.

[Dr.Epic]

Do the wizards in Harry Potter count? They're so terrified of a guy that's failed to kill a child multiple time they too scared to say his name, and when a killer escapes jail they figure let's surround a school with terrifying monsters that can make you unconscious if you get too close to them and can kill you if they kiss you. Wonderland has more logic that Hogwarts.

[Flickerdart]

-Six. Not the minimum sixty levels of protection that d20 caster defenders usually claim.
-Neither of those are things that you need to renew daily/hourly/every round.
-Four of them can be defeated by a single big box and seting it on fire for enough time (put chest inside, let it burn, toast hare, fry duck, boil egg, profit). The ocean and buried can also be defeated by munane means.
Have you ever tried to burn solid oak? Even disregarding the fact that it's a magical chest, it won't burn that easily. Also the island, as mentioned before, disappears. And is hidden. The only way the storybook hero even finds the location of the island is through help from another, better wizard.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'm kind of tired of people down in d20 endlessly complaining that nobody would be so paranoid as to have a suite of all-day buffs on, well, all day.

Of course they would, protecting yourself from surprises means protecting yourself constantly. The difference between 3.5 and most of other places is that they just aren't possible. Much less if they practical. And certainly whether they are as complete as might be fondly imagined.

The power of casters in 3.5 relies upon many many unquestioned assumptions.

Foremost among them it is simple for a player to badger a DM into allowing their feat and spell selection for a PC then handwave an explanation for it. I've always thought the term "fluff" a revealing look into where priorities are here. While story wise taking a feat or learning a spell may involve months, years, or even decades of research to master its secrets. That's per ability by the by.

Which may well leave you no time for example to build and run your sorcerous empire and develop the sort of enemies that would give rise to such paranoia.

[Flickerdart]

While story wise taking a feat or learning a spell may involve months, years, or even decades of research to master its secrets. That's per ability by the by.
The Fighter would love to hear that.

Do, however, try to stay on topic - this is a media thread about paranoid wizards, not a d20 thread about paranoid wizards. :smallsmile:

[Winter]

...yeah, an didn't think about stealing a nytroglicerine truck and parking it just outside of Harry's house during summer.

It's just another case of "Why use magic? Just use a gun!" Or even a knife. A knife would have been totally sufficient. :smallbiggrin:


Do the wizards in Harry Potter count? They're so terrified of a guy that's failed to kill a child multiple time they too scared to say his name...

To be fair, there was a reason in the first place that using the name was forbidden. Of course, the stupid movie (the 8th one really is a horrible adaption of the book) does not tell us that so that what happens all suddenly does not make sense anymore. The name in itself was jinxed and part of a spell the Death Eaters could use to find people who used that name.

[Flickerdart]

It's just another case of "Why use magic? Just use a gun!" Or even a knife. A knife would have been totally sufficient. :smallbiggrin:

The Weasleys are probably the only non-Mudblood wizards who even know what those things are, and Voldemort doesn't like them enough to ask about it.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The Fighter would love to hear that.

Do, however, try to stay on topic - this is a media thread about paranoid wizards, not a d20 thread about paranoid wizards. :smallsmile:

You started the topic by linking them from the get go, evidently disagreeing with the sentiment that nobody would ever be so paranoid. I'm merely pointing out that while nobody (0%) is excessive that doesn't in turn make the point 100% invalid.

Wizards and wizard-likes who are Crazy Prepared certainly do exist. I can name for example the Adversary from Fables who has so many protections built up that he considers it remarkable that a sword doesn't shatter after whacking him to no effect.

So what? If one doesn't want to discuss what factors go into such a thing what is there to discuss. Is this just a fishing expedition to drum up examples?

So continuing on discusssing what goes into an always buffed character I will go back to the Adversary from Fables. While pretty invincible he personally has essentially no offensive power and his level of protection is exceptionally rare. The typical caster for the setting takes a few decades to be decent but can be sniped dead by a rifleman it only took a few months to train.

Which I think makes a good case in point, yeah these guys exist but they tend to run close to about one to a setting and often have either a trade off or limitation. Namely they don't nessecarily have that many different methods. Palpatine had clones, but each clone was pretty kill-able for example.

[Winter]

The Weasleys are probably the only non-Mudblood wizards who even know what those things are, and Voldemort doesn't like them enough to ask about it.

Of course Voldemort has no clue about that or does go down to use "muggle technology".

But in regard to parsing posts on the internet, check this helpful link out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon

But actually, I do think he knows about knives and swords. :smallbiggrin:

[Mewtarthio]

Which I think makes a good case in point, yeah these guys exist but they tend to run close to about one to a setting and often have either a trade off or limitation.

There's Alex Verus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228728), where any sufficiently skilled diviner can pull off the paranoid wizard archetype, even though divination is all they can do. If a diviner is willing to cut all ties to the outside world, he can potentially go to ground all on his own indefinitely, and there's little you can do to find him. Obviously, Alex himself doesn't take this option, or there would be no story. A diviner in self-imposed exile won't ever get bothered, but there's not much else he can do.

[LordVader]

Harry Dresden continually walks around with magically bulletproofed clothing, an array of firearms, a forcefield bracelet, rings which can magically punch opponents through walls, and a staff capable of unleashing devastatingly focused blasting attacks.

I think he qualifies.

[Mewtarthio]

I think he qualifies.

He also routinely smacktalks entities capable of obliterating him with a thought, and has an unfortunate tendency to wind up in the most dangerous situations right after he's been beaten to within an inch of his life.

[Mauve Shirt]

Harry Dresden continually walks around with magically bulletproofed clothing, an array of firearms, a forcefield bracelet, rings which can magically punch opponents through walls, and a staff capable of unleashing devastatingly focused blasting attacks.

I think he qualifies.

“Paranoid? Probably. But just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face.”

[nyarlathotep]

If feats take years to learn my human fighter will die well before he hits level 10. Additionally you gain 2 free spells per level up even with just those you can make a sufficiently paranoid wizard.

The lich from Adventure Time might qualify if you assume that his Temple acts as an indestructible spell book. Even with limited resources he immediately identified anything that had proven capable of defeating him in the past and destroyed it. That is a big maybe, because we don't know what he does at full power.

AM from I have no mouth and I must scream has that level of power and protection, but not quite that level of paranoia. He failed to consider that mindslaves might rebel after over one hundred years of absolute servitude. This is clearly an insufficiently paranoid wizard. (referencing the computer game here)

Acererak from the Tomb of Horrors is constrained by having a spell selection made in 2nd edition, but still fits.

[Soras Teva Gee]

If feats take years to learn my human fighter will die well before he hits level 10. Additionally you gain 2 free spells per level up even with just those you can make a sufficiently paranoid wizard.

That's because 3.5 to its detriment doesn't distinguish the rarity/difficulty of an ability in its mechanics. Which is defensible from a game mechanics perspective for a party in a single story. However its worth remembering that game mechanics fundamentally do not exist in-setting, they are merely convenient book keeping measures for our world.

[nyarlathotep]

That's because 3.5 to its detriment doesn't distinguish the rarity/difficulty of an ability in its mechanics. Which is defensible from a game mechanics perspective for a party in a single story. However its worth remembering that game mechanics fundamentally do not exist in-setting, they are merely convenient book keeping measures for our world.

But you see that's just the point. The majority of properly paranoid wizard arguments are used to point out how and why 3.5 is flawed. The majority of homebrew overhauls are aiming to remove these inequities.

[Killer Angel]

-Six. Not the minimum sixty levels of protection that d20 caster defenders usually claim.
-Neither of those are things that you need to renew daily/hourly/every round.
-Four of them can be defeated by a single big box and seting it on fire for enough time (put chest inside, let it burn, toast hare, fry duck, boil egg, profit). The ocean and buried can also be defeated by munane means.

Way to miss the point...
Leaving aside in some tales the egg must be broken specifically breaking it against Koschei's forehead, it's a Folk Tale.
It depicts the image of a unkillable wizard, thanks to many bizarre protections due to a paranoid behavior. D&D replicate this, only scaling the level of protection, to match the level of magical danger.


It's just another case of "Why use magic? Just use a gun!" Or even a knife. A knife would have been totally sufficient. :smallbiggrin:


Minion comics - wizard school (http://www.meetmyminion.com/?p=1031) FTW! :smallbiggrin:

[Alabenson]

...yeah, an didn't think about stealing a nytroglicerine truck and parking it just outside of Harry's house during summer.

:smallamused:

The problem with something like this is the fact that Voldemort needed to use magic to kill Harry, because any other method would have been, to his mind, admitting that filthy muggle technology was better suited to a task than godly wizard magic, something that Voldemort would likely have rather killed himself than admit.

[Yora]

Voldemort fits this to a T. Shattered his soul into so many fragments, stored them in numerous mementos, and placed those mementos under the guard of just about every curse and corrupted creature known to wizardkind.
If all you have is a magic wand...

[Traab]

Voldemort fits this to a T. Shattered his soul into so many fragments, stored them in numerous mementos, and placed those mementos under the guard of just about every curse and corrupted creature known to wizardkind.

Pfft, prepared? He was an overdramatic ham that virtually begged to get killed off. Lets count the ways he fails at protecting himself. He picks a number of soul chunks to meet up with the most magically powerful number he can think of. Every item but his own diary are founders relics, and there are only a limited number of them, he then proceeds to hide them in places that have meaning to him, or in the care of his followers.

1) Number of pieces? Screw arithmancy, make an extra one just in case. What, did he think it would make him MORE immortal than the horocrux already did if he split his soul into 7 pieces?

2) Founders relics? Why not just turn the wonders of the world into horocruxes? No, pick 8 chunks of random stuff and use those. Ideally, pick something that blends in, like a chunk of granite and toss it into an abandoned rock quarry in germany.

3) Hiding it in places that are connected to you? NO NO NO NO NO!!!! You make absolutely SURE that there are no patterns that can be followed. One chunk of rubble in that random gravel pit, drop another in a random ocean at some random point with enough weight to hold it down for a thousand years or more, another in sri lanka, one more in northern canada, you get the idea. The entire point is that you dont want these to be found by anyone unless you specifically lead them there and tell them what it is.

4) Maybe give one to your most loyal follower who you then tell to go into hiding and that he is to do nothing except wait for you to vanish for a year before taking this item and performing this ritual. Thats to cover the easiest method of returning to life. All the rest stay in their random locations until they are needed to be used in a ritual for whatever reason. We already know he can posses people so leading them to the site of a random horocrux only he knows the location of is annoying but doable.



Ok, all that aside, the single most over prepared wizard in existence was actually a fanfiction version of dumbledoore. In a Partially Kissed Hero, Dumbledoore has horocruxes yeah, but he also has unbreakable oaths with snape that if he dies snape will use one immediately to bring him back. But thats the first layer. He has several methods prepared and ready to go in case the initial revive attempt wont work. If severus cant do it, he has every member of the hogwarts staff under compulsions to do the exact same thing and they dont even know it. If THAT doesnt work, he has alastor moody who does the exact same thing. If THAT doesnt work, his brother is also under compulsion to bring him back. If THAT doesnt work he has an entirely automated process in a secret lair that has been hidden under more wards than any dozen curse breakers would be able to identify that has been hidden from existence and wiped from all records for the better part of a hundred years which will also bring him back under a certain set of circumstances.

That just covers his methods for recovering from getting killed. He has thousands of plans plots and strategies that make it almost impossible to actually manage to kill him in the first place. Those portraits of former headmasters are used to bounce plans off of in order to counter anything someone might do to try and stop him, so he has a hundred of the brightest and best of the 4 houses there to make sure his plans have no holes. He directly controls over 50% of the entire government while making sure noone is ever aware of his control, that lets him pass or block anything he wants to. He owns the daily prophet, which only prints the information he wants known and is covered with runes that compel you to read and believe everything in it, even if it directly contradicts what you read yesterday. He has a vast fortune, with an even more vast set of stockpiles hidden away and guarded by entire armies of monsters and servants that he controls utterly, meaning not only could he start over from scratch incredibly wealthy, but he always has armies of vampires, dragons, magical constructs, magical creatures, and lord knows what else if he ever needs them. Oh yeah, and trawleny is a real oracle enslaved to his will, he uses her to find out any plots against him on a regular schedule and how to stop them.

There is probably more, but it would take an hour to write out the full list of everything harry and crew learn about dumbledoore and his plans and protections. Just to put it into perspective, harry kills dumbledoore probably a dozen times, takes over the prophet with a 100 page issue detailing all the horrible things he has done, lead the entire student body of hogwarts in an escape attempt to france, where dumbledoore captures them all literally on the france magic ministers front lawn, and exposes dumbledoores total control over wizarding britain and he STILL is in charge and barely inconvenienced.

[Grinner]

@Traab: From a non-magical perspective, that makes total sense.

[Mauve Shirt]

@Traab But it wouldn't make sense for Dumbledore to do that. Not being afraid of death was a huge part of his character. He wanted the Hallows, but not to avoid death, to bring his parents back so he didn't have to take care of his sister.

[Traab]

@Traab But it wouldn't make sense for Dumbledore to do that. Not being afraid of death was a huge part of his character. He wanted the Hallows, but not to avoid death, to bring his parents back so he didn't have to take care of his sister.

Yeah I know, but in the fanfic everything you thought you knew about dumbles was an act. He had spent decades carefully building up his image of the kindly grandfather to hide the fact that he is a dark lord thousands of times more dangerous than voldemort. It was explained pretty ingeniously as to how it all worked out, go to fanfiction.net and look up the story title. It gets very complicated towards the end, but it all makes sense as we learn about it.

[Philistine]

To the OT: every sorcerer of note in The Black Company is wrapped in layer upon layer of protective magic, rendering them nearly unkillable by mundane means. This doesn't mean that you can't get the drop one one, knock him out, chop his body into three-inch lengths, and then burn all the still-living bits separately - just that this sort of treatment is merely a temporary inconvenience. He'll be back. And boy, will he be angry...

[dehro]

-Six. Not the minimum sixty levels of protection that d20 caster defenders usually claim.
-Neither of those are things that you need to renew daily/hourly/every round.
-Four of them can be defeated by a single big box and seting it on fire for enough time (put chest inside, let it burn, toast hare, fry duck, boil egg, dinner). The ocean and buried can also be defeated by munane means.

I fixed it for you..but yeah, not quite the point of the topic.

any magical overlord in any universe that has to deal with a prophecy about his downfall falls into this category...because half the plot will be about the terrifying steps he took to prevent prophecy from happening and the paranoia laden chase of the good guys once he realises that his steps were for naught.
take Willow... the evil Bavmorda had scores of babies killed on the off chance that one of them would eventually bring her down only to be taken down by the people protecting the baby, rather than the baby herself.
think Davy Jones in the Pirates of the Carribean movie.

[DeusMortuusEst]

Many wizards in Jack Vance's 'The Dying Earth' books adhere to this trope. And the books are good. Read them.