Drow Without SLAs, LA question

[Roguenewb]

I'm starting a low level campaign soon (4-to-like-9), and one of my players would like to play a drow, and I feel like it would be a solid story fit. Unfortunately, and these levels, the 2 LA is a real problem. In order to try to mitigate it, we were brainstorming ways to bring it down to LA 1, thus facilitating LA buyoff at level 4, meaning he could start slow and just play the race. Knowing that drow aren't held in high regard for power, and this is a fairly low-op campaign which, if any, of these seem like LA 1 drow:

No SLAs,

No SR,

No saving throw bonuses, no immunity to sleep

No saves bonus, and half SR

No SLA, no save bonus

And so on and so forth. Thanks for your input guys!

[unundindur]

You could use the rules for Half-Drow from Faerun. It is pretty much a Half-elf with 30 feet darkvision instead of low-light vision :)

[Menteith]

I would strongly advise you to look into the Lesser Drow variant, located here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040215a&page=2

It removes a significant amount of Drow abilities, and leaves them with LA0. I hope that it helps.

EDIT

In a nutshell, they are...

Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Darkvision 60ft
+2 Will saves against Spells/Spell Like effects
+2 Racial Bonus on Spot, Listen, and Search. Automatic detection of secret doors.
Spell Like Abilities (If Cha >= 10): 1/day, Dancing Lights, Daze, Touch of Fatigue (CL = Class Level)
Weapon Proficiency: Lesser drow are automatically proficient with the hand crossbow, rapier, and short sword.
Light Blindness

[Jeraa]

Player's Guide to Faerun has a LA +0 version of the drow.

Edit: Stats are those in the link in the previous post.

[Man in Black]

I'm actually playing a similar character to this in a level 1 campaign which is limited to Player's Handbook, but here's how we fixed it-
1 - Half Drow instead of full Drow.
2 - Use Half-Elf for the Race
3 - Change the default Language to Undercommon
4 - Change the default Weapon Proficiencies if necessary
5 - Take Sorcerer for my starting class
6 - When they become available, take the spells Resistance, Dancing Lights, Darkness, Darkvision. I also took Jump, which I remember reading as something that Drow had a bonus in, but I don't see it in the stats I'm looking at right now so perhaps I was looking at something that was off.

By 4th level, depending on what feats you've chosen, you've got something very closely resembling a textbook Drow.

[eggs]

The lesser drow have been mentioned.

The other easy LA 0 option is the Savage Progression Drow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a).

Basically:
+2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con
Proficiencies
Darkvision
Dancing Lights 1/day
Darkvision 60'
Sleep Immunity
Light Blindness
+2 Listen/Spot/Search, and the hidden door thing

Compared to the Lesser Drow, it loses Touch of Fatigue/Daze and the will bonus, gains sleep immunity and an Int bonus.

Which is better basically depends on what you're building.

On making your own, if you dropped either the SR or the stat bonuses (or dropped SR to 5+level and dropped one stat bonus), I'd eyeball it as a reasonable LA0 race, compared to Illumian/Human/Strongheart Halfling/Whisper Gnome/Dwarf.

[Uncensored]

On the other hand, no self-respecting Drow would choose to be "lesser" anything.

[Golden Ladybug]

On the other hand, no self-respecting Drow would choose to be "lesser" anything.

Exactly.

Anyway, Dropping the Spell Resistance (or making it 5+Class Level and taking away one of the ability boosts. I'd suggest Int, because its generally the more powerful stat) is enough to take the Drow down to a weak LA+1 or a Strong LA+0, but not an overpowering one.

[Malachei]

Apart from the term lesser, lesser drow are a good option for you, IMO.

I think standard drow are a strong LA+2.

If you want to use a cherry-picking approach, make sure you compare the result to other classes of the same LA.

I'd also say in order for drow to be LA+0, you need to take away SR, PLUS all SLAs, plus BOTH ability adjustments they get in addition to elves.

Note many several benefits, including the ability bonuses, the 120 ft. darkvision, the Will save bonus against spells and SLAs, are in addition to what the elf gets.

Light blindness is not really a good balancing factor, because it is too much of a binary thing: Depending on the campaign, it either is a terrible burden or does not have much of an effect, at all. On low levels, the drow will be unplayable in a non-subterranean setting, unless the party can choose to act at night only (which the drow will try hard to do). At higher levels, the drow will have found a way to deal with it.

[Golden Ladybug]

Compared to the Elf? Yep, straight up better. But then again, the bog standard High Elf is often considered one of the weakest LA+0 Races. By taking that Chassis and giving it more things, then yes, it will be better. That's the point.

Compare this hypothetical LA+0 Drow (with +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha and 5+Class Level SR) to...lets say the Whisper Gnome, which is one of the stronger LA+0 Races.


The Drow has a net +2 Ability Adjustment, compared to the Whisper Gnome's net +0. However, the Whisper Gnome provides bonuses to Dexterity and Constitution, while the Drow provides Dexterity and Charisma. Constitution is, outside of a few very specific situations, a superior Stat, and is more useful to a wider variety of characters than that Charisma is. The Drow takes a hit to Consitution, while the Whisper Gnome loses Strength and Charisma. Strength is used for Carrying Capacity and Damage, and Charisma is of variable usefulness. Everyone wants to have a high constitution score, and it taking penalties to that score is always nearly a sub-optimal choice. This can be argued, but I believe the Drow and the Whisper Gnome come out even in terms of Ability Score modifiers
The Drow has medium size compared to the Whisper Gnome's small. Small Size normally comes with a 20ft land speed, while the Whisper Gnome has 30ft. Along with +1 to hit and AC, +4 to Hide and an additional 25% carrying Capacity (The weight of all items is reduced to 1/4 normal, and carrying capacity of a small character is only reduced by half), in return for an average of 1 point of damage on a die roll. Damage from the size of your weapon's damage dice is not meaningful beyond the early levels of play. The Whisper Gnome wins.
120ft Darkvision vs Low Light Vision and 60ft Darkvision...eh, I'd have to give it to the Drow.
+2 Bonus on Will Saves against Spells/SLAs from the Drow side, no equivalent ability from the Whisper Gnome (who don't get any save boosting racial abilities)
In terms of Weapon Proficiencies, Drow get better and more than the Gnome Hooked Hammer (doubles weapons tend to be rather poor, since you need to enchant both ends seperately)
Skill wise, Drow get +2 Spot, Listen and Search. Whisper Gnomes get +4 Hide and Move Silently and +2 Listen and Spot. The Gnome comes out on top in both usefulness of the skills (Search is not comparable to both Hide and Move Silently) and the net bonus. Combined with their size and dex, Whisper Gnomes gain an effective +9 to Hide.
The Drow gets 3 SLAs (Darkness, Dancing Lights and Faerie Fire), equivalent to a Cantrip, a 1st level Spell and a 2nd Level Spell. The Whisper Gnome gets 4 SLAs (A Limited Silence that must be centred on the Gnome's body, Mage Hand, Ghost Sounds and Message), eqivalent to three Cantrips and one 2nd level spell. Going by the language used in Magic Item Crafting and the Wizard's Spellbook, two Cantrips are equivalent to a 1st Level spell, so I'm inclined to say they equal out in the power of their SLAs, and with the individual usefulness of the SLAs in question, I would even say that the Whisper Gnome has a better deal
The Whisper Gnome gains an additional +4 AC against Giants, which is quite useful when it comes into play.
The Drow gain a weak-to-strong Spell Resistance (5+Class Levels is rather weak, 11+Class Levels kinda strong), which can be useful or hindering depending on the circumstances. I'm still inclined to call this a plus, even with the problems that arise when your Party attempt to Buff or Heal you
Light Blindness, which is an annoying debuff that can be lifethreatening at low levels and little more than an inconvenience at high. Still, a negative side to the Drow, something that the Whisper Gnome lacks (unless you'd like to call small size a negative, which it can be in situations like resisting Combat Maneuvers)

Looking at that comparison, the LA+0 Drow without the Intelligence Boost is stronger than the Whisper Gnome, but not by too much. Would certainly fit in the top end of LA+0, chilling snugly with Lesser Planetouched, Humans, Illumians and Whisper Gnomes. They can also be slotted into the weaker end of LA+1, and even with full Spell Resistance and Int Boost, I don't think they leave the middle of LA+1. Compare to the Half-Giant or the Goliath, both of whom are considered fine choices for players amongst LA+1 Races, and both provide benefits which are comparable to the normal Drow.

But when we start comparing the Drow to some of the good LA+2 Options, there is a huge power disparity. Drow are not good enough to be a viable LA+2 Choice. Two levels of class advancement is better in every way than the benefits offered by Drow. A level 3 Fighter is strictly better than a Level 1 Drow Fighter.

Drow is not worth LA+2. As they are, LA+1 is much easier to stomach and with tweaking, would fit right in with the higher tier of LA+0.

[Gorfnod]

Drow is not worth LA+2. As they are, LA+1 is much easier to stomach and with tweaking, would fit right in with the higher tier of LA+0.

As an add-on to what Golden Ladybug said I would suggest reading this thread. I found that people seem to agree that Drow work better as a +1 LA.

Drow as a LA+1 Race (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13017943)

I recently had a player request to play a drow in my game and have decided to allow him to play it as a +1 LA instead of +2 based on the feedback from this thread.

Thread was [TL;DR] - Spell resistance is the main reasoning behind the +2 LA. In low-op games the spell resistance really matters, +2 LA is justified, particularly at lower levels. In mid-high op games +1 LA is enough as enemies will know and counter for SR.

[Malachei]

I think it is cherry-picking to compare to the whisper gnome, who is often the prime example of an outrageously overpowered LA 0 race.

[eggs]

If you dropped either the SR or the mental ability bonuses, I can't think of a case where Drow would be a clearly better option than Human.

Human may also be an outrageously overpowered race to cherrypick, but it's not exactly nonstandard.

[Malachei]

If you dropped either the SR or the mental ability bonuses, I can't think of a case where Drow would be a clearly better option than Human.

Human may also be an outrageously overpowered race to cherrypick, but it's not exactly nonstandard.

I must say that this surprises me.

Consider what a Drow with no SR would get: +2 Int, +2 Cha, +2 Dex, -2 Con, 120 ft. Darkvision, +2 save bonus, spell-like abilities, weapon proficiencies.

What does a Human get? One feat.

A net +4 plus on ability scores alone, IMO is worth a feat. It means a drow arcane spellcaster will have a +1 DC, and at least one more bonus spell. At high levels, this will mean multiple bonus spells, including a 9th level bonus spell.

This assumes not feat shuffling is allowed. If it would is, the drow has two more feats than the human.

[eggs]

Drow adds a lot of stuff, but it's mostly adding to horizontal advancement - miscellaneous 1/day abilities, perception abilities, proficiencies, save boosts, skill bonuses. They're all nice abilities, but not the sorts of abilities that affect encounter balance.

The things that really change encounter balance with the race are vertical advancement - bonuses that make the Drow more effective in its specialization. These are the mental ability score bonuses (+2 each) and the Spell Resistance. I think each of those is comparable to the bonus feat in terms of encounter balance (an extra spell per day/+1 DC v. Spell resistance v. an extra feat slot for things like Ocular Spell, Quicken or Travel Devotion).

So I'd agree that the Drow gets way more stuff than the other races, but with only one of its heavy-hitting abilities, I'd call it "balanced" in terms of power. It might still need to have the other abilities pared down for total equality, but I do think hacking off either the SR or mental stats would put it on the right playing field in terms of encounter design.

[Golden Ladybug]

I think it is cherry-picking to compare to the whisper gnome, who is often the prime example of an outrageously overpowered LA 0 race.

Whatever is said about them, Whisper Gnomes are LA+0. They are at the very top end of LA+0, and I compare the Drow to them because they would also be at the very top.

I think that removing the Drow's Intelligence boost is enough to leave them straddling the border between LA+0 and LA+1, even with full spell resistance. By weakening their Spell Resistance, there is no question in my mind that they become a LA+0 race. Still a strong one, but not the best ever, and not even intact are they the best choice for spellcasters. The Lesser Aasimar is a better cleric, the Kobold is a better Sorcerer and the Lesser Tiefling is a better Wizard.

Drow would be a good choice for many situations, but they wouldn't be the best. I have no doubt they could exist in the top tiers of LA+0

[Malachei]

Whatever is said about them, Whisper Gnomes are LA+0. They are at the very top end of LA+0, and I compare the Drow to them because they would also be at the very top.

How does that address my point? Now you have two poorly balanced LA+0 races at the top of the food chain, instead of just one.

By that logic, would you agree to taking Shivering Touch as an example to balance a new 3rd level spell? Because, after all, while Shivering Touch is often used as an example for an outrageously overpowered 3rd level spell, it is 3rd level.

I think you should compare to PHB races.

[Larkas]

If you want a LA+1 race, just drop the SR to 5+level and you'll have a solid, LA+1 Drow.

[Golden Ladybug]

How does that address my point? Now you have two poorly balanced LA+0 races at the top of the food chain, instead of just one.

By that logic, would agree to taking Shivering Touch as an example to balance a new 3rd level spell? Because, after all, while Shivering Touch is often used as an example for an outrageously overpowered 3rd level spell, it is 3rd level.

I think you should compare to PHB races.

Yes, because if I were to adapt Drow to LA+0, I would put them at the top of LA+0 and leave them relatively untouched. They are good, they have useful stat mods and SR, and some other stuff that is sorta cool. They certainly aren't powerful enough to be LA+2, they are arguably weak for LA+1 and they can exist at the top end of LA+0 without creating too much of a power disparity between the other powerful LA+0 options.

But, what you are saying has merit. Compared to the Lesser Planetouched, Strongheart Halfings, Whisper Gnomes or Warforged, a LA+0 Drow (-Int Boost, Decreased SR) is not too remarkable. Compared to normal Elves, Half-Orcs and Half-Elves, they begin to look pretty crash hot. Balancing LA+0 against the weakest members will result in the Drow being too powerful, and the necessary adjustments to balance them against those weaker elements would probably result in little more than normal Elves with black skin, a bad reputation and light blindness.

Taken in that regard, LA+1 is a comfortable place for them to exist, without changing anything about the Drow as written. The Goliath is an example of an LA+1 Race that is equivalently powerful (albeit in a different fashion). They get +4 Strength, +2 Constitution and -2 Dexterity, which is the same +4 net ability mod, and Powerful Build and SR balance out fairly evenly. They get less stuff, but most of what the Drow gets is fairly superfluous.

However, this method of balancing against the weakest member of the pack is something that I feel to be flawed. Shivering Touch is probably the most powerful 3rd Level Spell around when it comes to defeating a single enemy, and if I were to use it as a measuring stick, I would use it to say "If any spell is more powerful than this, it cannot exist as a 3rd Level spell. Anything less powerful falls within the established boundaries for 3rd level spells, even if those boundaries are at the very edge of acceptable." Should Shivering Touch be higher than 3rd Level? That's a case that could be made, and one I would probably support, but as it stands, it serves as the milestone for the absolutely most powerful a 3rd level spell can be.

That same philosophy is applied here; the LA+0 Races that I've mentioned are some of the most powerful around. They are the upper ceiling of LA+0. Anything equal or less powerful than they are can make a case for being an appropriate LA+0 race. Anything more powerful goes up to LA+1 or higher.

But, as ever, YMMV.

[Malachei]

So by looking at an outlier for balancing a new game element, we make the outlier less of an outlier, by twinning it.

If a player came to me with a 3rd level spell on par with shivering touch, I'd say: "Now let us look at other third level spells." Once we've looked at a few, I'd want to have the spell not match the most powerful I can find, but fit in with a cluster of spells.

[Golden Ladybug]

Okay, thats valid, especially so for the spell example. However, in terms of the balance discussion for Races, that isn't quite true. Putting the Drow at the top of LA+0 doesn't make it an Outlier; it puts it in alongside all the other Races that are at the top of LA+0.

Lesser Planetouched, Whisper Gnomes, Strongheart Halfings, Warforged, Elans, (Dragonwrought) Kobolds, Humans, Illumians, Neraphs, Anthromorphic Animals and more are all LA+0 Races. That is the balance point I'm aiming for when placing this modified Drow. This is one cohort of LA+0, and the other (which contains normal Elves, Goblins, Half-Orcs and Half-Elves, along with some others) is substantially weaker in comparison.

When balanced against the higher cohort, Drow are not particularly special, although they are still pretty good. Balanced against the Weaker, they are much too powerful and require level adjustment. I view the stronger cohort as an appropriate balance point for LA+0, whereas you might view the weaker as the correct spot. That's fine, and neither of us are wrong here. We just have different opinions on this matter.

I completely agree that Shivering Touch is ridiculously broken, though :smallsmile:

[Malachei]

(...) Humans (...)

Comparing them to humans is actually an excellent idea.

I hope you don't mind when I say your cohort consists of apples and oranges. For instance, lesser planetouched are a variant rule presented in the appendix of A Player's Guide to Faerun. I think you should rather compare the Drow to the standard Planetouched.

The approach also looks like reverse engineering to me: Trying to find a reason to balance something, when you've actually taken a decision already: "Come on, squeeze in, will you fit in LA+0 already!"

[Larkas]

The approach also looks like reverse engineering to me: Trying to find a reason to balance something, when you've actually taken a decision already: "Come on, squeeze in, will you fit in LA+0 already!"

It might work, IF one is able to take enough things out to make it fit.

IIRC, the "best" (as in, races that offer nice things without being overpowered) LA +0 races are considered to be humans, dwarves and halflings. If you want to make something LA +0, you have to balance against THOSE, not against Half-elves or Whisper Gnomes. It is ok if, in balancing that way, your race turns out to be marginally weaker or marginally stronger. They should NOT, however, be much stronger or much weaker than those three races.

TL;DR: If you want to balance something, balance it against something average, not against something way down the bell curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_Distribution).

[Golden Ladybug]

Comparing them to humans is actually an excellent idea.

I hope you don't mind when I say your cohort consists of apples and oranges. For instance, lesser planetouched are a variant rule presented in the appendix of A Player's Guide to Faerun. I think you should rather compare the Drow to the standard Planetouched.

Okay, that's fair. I personally use the Lesser Planetouched, and it is true that not everyone does. However, they do exist, and they are allowed to be played without Level Adjustment, and must be considered when talking about what is acceptable and what isn't. Not everyone uses the Tome of Battle, but does that mean it should never be brought up when comparing Melee classes?

Once again, I concede that in an environment where the higher levels of LA+0, such as the Lesser Planetouched and similar, are removed, then the Drow are too powerful to exist in that bracket. With the higher levels intact, they fit that in that area fine, with a small amount of modification to their existing abilities.


The approach also looks like reverse engineering to me: Trying to find a reason to balance something, when you've actually taken a decision already: "Come on, squeeze in, will you fit in LA+0 already!"

:smallannoyed:

Okay, take a small amount of offence at that, but I understand what you mean.

You are right that I have already made a decision about this; I believe that a slightly modified Drow can exist in the LA+0 Bracket. An unmodified Drow should rightly exist in a LA+1 environment. That is the position that I'm taking, and the reason that I'm here arguing my case. Were the venue of our discussion not the internet, I'd probably put more effort into doing so in a more structured and professional manner.

I will admit that I have some personal bias, in that I think Drow are really cool and would enjoy playing them more often, but I am not blind to the faults of making that a reality without putting in work to balance it against other options. The options available for playing a Drow character without level adjustment are woeful (Lesser Drow? Here, have a High Elf but worse), and I don't accept the idea of Drow being powerful enough to warrant a level adjustment of +2. As they are, they fit in the low-to-medium area of LA+1.

However, whenever another DM, or I personally, allow a player to use a Whisper Gnome, Lesser Planetouched, Dragonwrought Kobold or any of the other powerful LA+0 races, I feel that there would be no issue allowing a modified Drow in their place.


It might work, IF one is able to take enough things out to make it fit.

IIRC, the "best" (as in, races that offer nice things without being overpowered) LA +0 races are considered to be humans, dwarves and halflings. If you want to make something LA +0, you have to balance against THOSE, not against Half-elves or Whisper Gnomes. It is ok if, in balancing that way, your race turns out to be marginally weaker or marginally stronger. They should NOT, however, be much stronger or much weaker than those three races.

TL;DR: If you want to balance something, balance it against something average, not against something way down the bell curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_Distribution).

That's a fair call. My example of the modified Drow is a significantly stronger choice for race when compared to a Dwarf or a Halfling. In an environment where they were they were the alternate options available, I would suggest the Drow to have a level adjustment of +1 (I don't think it is unreasonable to say that absolutely nothing the Drow get is worth losing two levels of a character class for).

Power is relative, after all, and that should be taken into account. In a Core-Only environment, the Drow is a powerful race. When all sourcebooks are opened up, they become rather tame.

Even so, I see your point, and I think I'll back down here. Using my methodology, I think the modified Drow is a reasonable LA+0 Race. Using yours, it is not.

[Malachei]

I personally use the Lesser Planetouched, and it is true that not everyone does. However, they do exist, and they are allowed to be played without Level Adjustment, and must be considered when talking about what is acceptable and what isn't. Not everyone uses the Tome of Battle, but does that mean it should never be brought up when comparing Melee classes?

I think you can't really compare. ToB is a sourcebook, and offers so much new material that it is extremely hard to walk past ToB. Lesser planetouched are a variant rule in an appendix of a Faerun-specific book. Of course, we'll never know, but it is within reason to assume that this is not a coincidence. A variant for a special race is also a much smaller addition than ToB -- what I want to say is that ToB plays a much larger role for the game.


Okay, take a small amount of offence at that, but I understand what you mean.

I fail to see how that could be seen that way, and be assured I certainly did not mean it that way. I use cherry-picking as well, and I catch myself at reverse-engineering. It is nothing bad by itself. The question I often ask myself: Am I thinking about a reference to find the best answer or to support my opinion? I think in debates, we often do it to support our opinion. I think we also tend to do it for things we want to see working out in a certain way. For houserules, I think we as DMs should question and try to restrain ourselves.


feel that there would be no issue allowing a modified Drow in their place.

Perhaps, but that depends exactly on the modified drow, i.e. what stays, what goes out. And just taking away the SR, IMO, is not enough. Also, watch out, or you'll have the "standard" PHB races as exceptions to the norm, because every smart player will find a roleplaying reason because his/her character just has to be a whisper gnome or similarly powerful race.


In an environment where they were they were the alternate options available, I would suggest the Drow to have a level adjustment of +1

I don't think that is really the point. The point, IMO, is that there are outliers, which represent bad reference points, because using them as reference points will create more outliers. Eventually, your players may consider elves and humans as unplayable. It encourages a strong focus on mechanics (which you might want, perhaps, and then this is your play preference, which is fine). Looking at a cluster, looking at averages, looking at a bell curve helps you avoid these issues.

I think the drow race offers enough benefits on its own. Certainly, I wouldn't make a race as strong as the whisper gnome, unless I'd be happy if every other player would want to play one. It seems since Races of Stone, there was a whisper gnome invasion, and thankfully, my games are not affected by it yet. If they are in danger of being overrun, I'd create the in-world solution of giving them valuable fur. ;)

Also, I am somewhat less excited about giving more players a reason to look for excuses to play a row. I mean, the drow as a player character race is really a cliché and totally drizz't-up, isn't it?

[Golden Ladybug]

I think you can't really compare. ToB is a sourcebook, and offers so much new material that it is extremely hard to walk past ToB. Lesser planetouched are a variant rule in an appendix of a Faerun-specific book. Of course, we'll never know, but it is within reason to assume that this is not a coincidence. A variant for a special race is also a much smaller addition than ToB -- what I want to say is that ToB plays a much larger role for the game.

Of course; I'm not disputing that ToB is much more significant when compared to the Lesser Planetouched variant rule, I was simply using it to demonstrate my point. When having a discussion about the balance point of player races, you should consider the full spectrum, in the same way that you should consider ToB in a discussion about Melee classes.


I fail to see how that could be seen that way, and be assured I certainly did not mean it that way. I use cherry-picking as well, and I catch myself at reverse-engineering. It is nothing bad by itself. The question I often ask myself: Am I thinking about a reference to find the best answer or to support my opinion? I think in debates, we often do it to support our opinion. I think we also tend to do it for things we want to see working out in a certain way. For houserules, I think we as DMs should question and try to restrain ourselves.

Okay, I understand. As is a common problem when conversing on the internet, I was reading your statement in a manner that you didn't intend it. No harm done :smallsmile:


Perhaps, but that depends exactly on the modified drow, i.e. what stays, what goes out. And just taking away the SR, IMO, is not enough. Also, watch out, or you'll have the "standard" PHB races as exceptions to the norm, because every smart player will find a roleplaying reason because his/her character just has to be a whisper gnome or similarly powerful race.

As a DM, I don't have any problem with my players using the resources available to them as best they can. Currently, I have a game running which contains a Lesser Aasimar Favoured Soul, a Dragonborn Water Orc Dragon Shaman, and a LA+0 Vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226134) Rogue/Binder. When they asked if they could play those races, I had no objections, nor would there have been if only one person had asked to play a race that gave them useful bonuses, and the others had wanted to be a Human and an Elf, for instance. The Stormwind Fallacy is as applicable here as it is anywhere.

Also, when I say modified Drow, I've been referring to the changes I suggested earlier in the thread (Ability Modifiers changes to Dexterity +2, Constitution -2, Charisma +2, SR 5+Class Levels (Or removed completely)), but the same principle holds for other variants.


I don't think that is really the point. The point, IMO, is that there are outliers, which represent bad reference points, because using them as reference points will create more outliers. Eventually, your players may consider elves and humans as unplayable. It encourages a strong focus on mechanics (which you might want, perhaps, and then this is your play preference, which is fine). Looking at a cluster, looking at averages, looking at a bell curve helps you avoid these issues.

Oh, I love Mechanics. I've spent a fair bit of time since I was introduced to this game becoming as mechanically proficient with the system as I could, both from an enjoyment point of view and that the game rewards system mastery. I also like roleplay heavy games and a focus on shared storytelling, so make of that what you will.

Also, now that it has been brought up and I've considered it, I agree that you have a good point about balancing from the average (something that, in retrospect, I probably should have thought of on my lonesome).

However, I will point out that from a mechanical perspective, I already find that there are very few situations in which I would say an Elf is a good choice in a mechanical sense. From a roleplaying perspective, there can be any number of reasons to play an Elf, and if I were to ever pick up a High Elf character it would likely be for the roleplay potential rather than the mechanical usefulness of the Race.

However, I don't really find High Elves that interesting in the first place, so it isn't often that I play Elves :smalltongue:


I think the drow race offers enough benefits on its own. Certainly, I wouldn't make a race as strong as the whisper gnome, unless I'd be happy if every other player would want to play one. It seems since Races of Stone, there was a whisper gnome invasion, and thankfully, my games are not affected by it yet. If they are in danger of being overrun, I'd create the in-world solution of giving them valuable fur. ;)

Also, I am somewhat less excited about giving more players a reason to look for excuses to play a row. I mean, the drow as a player character race is really a cliché and totally drizz't-up, isn't it?

That is absolutely hilarious, and I'm tempted to incorporate that into my games :smallbiggrin:

I have no issues with Whisper Gnomes or Player Races of their level of power (which you've probably noticed from my comments), but I find the mental image of quiet, sneaky Gnomes being hunted down and shaved mercilessly for their valuable tufts of hair to be stupidly comical and fun.

Also, while I agree that the emulation of a certain Chaotic Good, Scimitar Wielding Drow who wants to escape the stigma of his Race should be discouraged, I don't think the use of Drow should be. I really like Drow, and enjoy roleplaying them. They have a very different society and cultural norms compared to almost any other humanoid D&D race I can think of at 3:30 AM (speaking of which, I REALLY need to go to sleep :smalleek:), are constantly trying to kill each other and get regular contact with their batsh*t crazy Goddess, who does nothing but encourage their self-destructive behaviour, when she isn't taking horrible vengeance on them for nothing much or setting monstrous spiders on them for giggles.

I never really understood people wanting to play as Drizzt (well, I do in the "I want to be like this really cool character from a book I read" way, but not in the "I want to be this Drow character who is most decidedly un-drowlike" way); why would you want to be a Drow trying to be something different? Drow as Drow are so much more fun!

[Malachei]

Oh, I love Mechanics. (...) I also like roleplay heavy games and a focus on shared storytelling

We share the love.


if I were to ever pick up a High Elf character it would likely be for the roleplay potential rather than the mechanical usefulness of the Race. However, I don't really find High Elves that interesting in the first place, so it isn't often that I play Elves :smalltongue:

Elves are also excellent from a mechanical perspective for a variety of builds, even without the feat shuffle. Consider Elven Generalist Wizard, for instance.


That is absolutely hilarious, and I'm tempted to incorporate that into my games :smallbiggrin:

That officially makes you a member of the whisper gnomes should have fur club. Congratulations and welcome to the club.