(BoED) Does Vow of Poverty help or hinder the Monk class

[Razgriez]

I ask because, my last attempt at playing a Monk at the table, was rather underwhelming (I rather not talk about it too much.... :smallfrown: ), despite the fact that I quite enjoy playing as Tier 5 classes.

Now, about a week ago, I happened to stop by a local Hobby/Comic shop, and managed to find, and buy a copy of Book of Exalted Deeds, and after reading it through, noticed some rather interesting build options. Of note, is a Vow of Poverty build, which on paper, seems to work very well for monks, both RP wise and game play wise. Sacrifice all ability to use any sort of item above simple weapons and some cloths to wear for some rather awesome enhancements to AC, ability scores, attacks, bonus Exalted feats (Sanctified/Holy Ki Strikes with Touch of Golden Ice anyone?)

Or, am I basically just getting my hopes up just to get crushed again, because I find out in the end that Vow of Poverty has the same problems as 20 levels of Monk ("Congratulations, after 20 levels of being poor, just like your Monk abilities, you've learned how to do things the party casters were doing 10+ levels ago")

Also, can/has Vow of Poverty ever cause some strife at the table, especially when used for a Monk (Really the trade offs seem rather minimal compared to other classes)? I ask because I rather not have my friends in my group annoyed at me that I've got effects typically reserved for magic items, simply by refusing any possessions and by stick to alignment.

[Hirax]

VoP in general makes things weaker, not stronger. It's two feats better spent elsewhere.

[Answerer]

Vow of Poverty does not come even close to making up for the loss of items.

Monk is one of the most (not least) item-dependant classes.

Vow of Poverty takes the Monk, already one of the weakest classes, and makes it completely incapable of performing at any thing like a reasonable level.

The only classes who can make a case for Vow of Poverty, outside of very specialized builds or DCS abuse, are Druid, Incarnate, and Totemist. And even they would rather not.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Hinders. Gods, how it hinders.

There's a few classes that can actually work of of the VoP (Totemist comes to mind).

Monks are not one of them. The biggest one that I can think of of the top of my head is tactical movement. Be it flight or teleportation, you have no access (save through the extremely limited Abundant Step).

[Flickerdart]

Even on a real class, VoP isn't worth what it costs you. With a Monk, it actively hinders you, because now you can't buy your Necklace of Natural Attacks or boots of flying or any of the items that a high level character needs to survive. Instead you get to waste two feats and then get a bunch of useless Exalted feats. Oh, and if you're ever less than perfect goody two shoes you lose all that forever.

Some clever people get a ton of gold and spend it all on grafts before taking VoP. This can let you shore up some of its weaknesses, but you also gain less benefits, as grafts are really expensive and you'll be starting a lot later.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hinder.

Next question.


Okay okay. Look at it this way.

With a day's food, a quarterstaff, and the clothes on his back, how precisely does a level 20 Monk not automatically die to a Pixie?

Pixies have DR Cold Iron (which a VoP Monk can't bypass), greater invisibility, flight, and a ranged attack that they can use while hidden, flying, and invisible.

The best you can do is use spot and listen checks and throw rocks where you think the pixie might be and hope you crit and get past the dr and the miss chances. Not likely.

Now a monk with 20th level wealth by level MIGHT have a chance against such a creature, if he covered his bases right....

[JackMage666]

If your game has roughly comparable WBL, and you have some choice in the items you can buy, then VoP is outshined just by the magic items you could buy instead.

However, in a campaign with few and far between magic items, it can be very helpful to a class.

It's also not particularly bad for a Druid to take, since the bonuses carry on while Wildshaping.

But as for monks? Thematically, it fits. It's easy to take because it's not like you wear armor or use weapons either. But overall, it's not really all that worth it unless the game is already low-power.

[Emperor Tippy]

The only time VoP ever improves a character is if you trade it and all of the bonus feats it gives you away with Chaos Shuffle to get useful things.

The class it actually helps the most is probably Psions (well at least Psions with a 1 level dip in Monk and the feat Ascetic Psion). You still should shuffle away your bonus feats (ask the party wizard to do it for you).

That way you can grab an extra 11 copies of, say, Psionic Talent. That's an extra 77 PP, or a 22% increase (meaning an additional 4 9th level powers manifested each day at level 20).

It's still not good but at least you can still contribute meaningfully to the party.

[tyckspoon]

Hinder.

Next question.


Okay okay. Look at it this way.

With a day's food, a quarterstaff, and the clothes on his back, how precisely does a level 20 Monk not automatically die to a Pixie?


Level 20 Vow gets you continuous True Seeing and DR 10/Evil. He sees the Pixie and the Pixie is basically incapable of harming him, and his free +5 enhancement to any weapon he wields + investing at least a few of his Vow bonuses into Strength should see him through that pretty easily.

Not that that's a big accomplishment, since a Pixie is only CR 4 and you should have been able to solo one easily from like level 6 or 7 on.. at which levels a Vow of Poverty Monk is indeed pretty much screwed.

[Razgriez]

So basically, at best: "Awesome but Impractical" and at worst: It's "Yea.. you're just not going to do well at all...roll up a new character

And thus, for all the talk about Monks wanting to transcend to a higher existence, with out worldly desires, it seems they are still tethered to the need for magical trinkets (Which start off at a price somewhere typically much higher than the average peasant earns every year. Irony?)

So with that said... and thus now taking this a bit off topic, while we are on BoED, are feats like Sanctified Ki Strike, and Touch of Golden Ice worth the normal feat slot expense? Enhanced damage versus Evil creatures has always been a pretty good investment in my play experience, and given that Touch of Golden Ice can be delivered by an Unarmed strike, attaching a DEX reducing Ravage to every single one of my unarmed attacks seems somewhat decent, (though the low save DC leaves some room to be desired)

[GoatBoy]

Would someone mind sharing all of these item bonuses that the Monk needs that aren't provided by Vow of Poverty? I'm just curious.

[Cirrylius]

I have a kiiind of related question. Are there any ways to get VoP-style benefits for a non-good character? Basically I have an idea for a really bestial, feral, grew-up-in-the-underdark-alone kind of character... weapons, armor, money, magic items, hell, even CLOTHES are completely alien to him. Would a VoP variant be viable to keep him on par with characters of the same level?

[Crasical]

Something is always better than nothing. However, this does mean that in situations where you have nothing, VoP will give you something. In a game I'm playing my 4th level character has an everburning torch and a potion of cure light wounds. That's it. And it doesn't look promising that I'll be finding any magical treasure anytime soon. If I had VoP, I would effectively have a +1 weapon, and a ring of endure elements. I'd gladly make that trade.

[Flickerdart]

Would someone mind sharing all of these item bonuses that the Monk needs that aren't provided by Vow of Poverty? I'm just curious.
This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) provides a list of stuff that a high level character needs to have. VoP hits about 1 of those points.

[deuxhero]

Flight is the big one.

[eggs]

The monk most badly needs items for flight, tactical movement, teleportation and meaningful damage increases. Also for beating invisibility and other perceptual defenses, but VoP covers that one.

[Particle_Man]

Touch of Golden Ice can make a poor man's detect evil. Shake hands with those you meet, see who gets frozen. :smallsmile:

I played in a low WBL campaign and liked my VoP Monk.

[Gavinfoxx]

Level 20 Vow gets you continuous True Seeing and DR 10/Evil. He sees the Pixie and the Pixie is basically incapable of harming him, and his free +5 enhancement to any weapon he wields + investing at least a few of his Vow bonuses into Strength should see him through that pretty easily.

Not that that's a big accomplishment, since a Pixie is only CR 4 and you should have been able to solo one easily from like level 6 or 7 on.. at which levels a Vow of Poverty Monk is indeed pretty much screwed.

So he... jumps up at the pixie while it is shooting arrows at him from the air? Really, strength and skill points in Jump are enough to do that? What about the sleep arrows?

[Elric VIII]

If you really want to play an exalted character, you can just fake the poverty part. I had a player almost play a VoP monk and I changed the feat to not suck.

Basically, what I did was allow him to gain the bonus feats, but nothing else form the feat itself. At each level he was allowed to choose abilities from static or use/day items (but nothing consumable) such that his effective wealth is equal to that of a character of 2 levels lower (to compensate for the immediate acquisition of wealth, ability to ignore item slots, and the bonus feats). Had I actually used this, I would have added a bit where he can pray/meditate for a day to reallocate some portion of his wealth.

[deuxhero]

^^^Poor man's version of a Paladin's class feature seems like you went past the bottom of the barrel and are scraping the floorboards under the barrel.

[Razgriez]

Well actually, I take back part of my initial reply, as I just realized part of the problem. What I think is powerful, seems to be at a lower level than what many posting here are used to. (Typically for me, it's Core, + maybe 1 or two extra source books, so far being limited to things like PHB II and The Complete series) So in that case, allow me add a new question then to the discussion.

At which point does VoP become a hindrance that just can not be ignored. I.E. what is the campaign style/level of difficulty, in which no amount of bonus Exalted feats, "Free" Ability enhancement, 3 different forms of AC enhancement and Role playing the character, can redeem it's usage? Or is it the kind of feat, that with the sole exception of Low magic Item games, it's just terrible?

[Gavinfoxx]

At any point when you are supposed to be able to fly, teleport, attack things with metal based damage reduction and be useful at hitting them, any point you need to use a ranged weapon, any point you need to use non normal vision modes to overcome something, etc. etc.


In other words, HUGE SWATHES of monsters from all over the Monster Manual totally ruin your day.

[Answerer]

Unless your DM is refusing you unreasonable* amounts of wealth, Vow of Poverty is worth less than simply not.

If nothing else, not taking it saves you two feats. Even at level 1 where you're not losing terribly much in the way of equipment, it doesn't give much for two feats.

* YMMV on what constitutes "unreasonable," but it is my strongly held opinion that 3.5 is awful for attempting a low wealth or low magic campaign. There are much, much better systems for that. 3.5 does not handle such changes well at all.

[eggs]

So he... jumps up at the pixie while it is shooting arrows at him from the air? Really, strength and skill points in Jump are enough to do that? What about the sleep arrows?
To be fair, the Monk could just clock it with a club from across the room.

But that club is only going to be doing 18-19 damage per hit at level 20. And those big 2d10 unarmed strikes are only going to do 25ish damage per hit. Those would be unimpressive values for an ECL 8 character; for ECL 20, it's just pathetic.

EDIT:
On when it's useful, it probably won't foul anything up too much before ECL 7. But it would probably be more effective to drop the feat, and to change what WBL means. The easiest way would be to let the Monk treat various items as having common enhancements without them being magical items (use the normal magic item budgeting, just don't make the items tradable goods).

[Gavinfoxx]

You get a QUARTERSTAFF that is a walking stick. Not a sling, not a club. no sling bullets. No daggers. You have to pick up and throw rocks or something.

[eggs]

You have that capitalized and everything like it's what the feat says.

The rule is "ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons."
The 0-crafting time improvised club works fine.

[Razgriez]

To be fair, the Monk could just clock it with a club from across the room.

But that club is only going to be doing 18-19 damage per hit at level 20. And those big 2d10 unarmed strikes are only going to do 25ish damage per hit. Those would be unimpressive values for an ECL 8 character; for ECL 20, it's just pathetic.

True, but, couldn't you also use the Kensai PrC (Which I know has been floated about a few times in Monk builds) for it's Signature Weapon ability to help mitigate that? If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't you be able to have a reduced xp cost also on enchanting Monk's unarmed strike with additional effects due to VoP's Exalted Strike enhancement? And, because it's not a weapon, but your own hands, it would stay in the bounds of VoP, correct?


You get a QUARTERSTAFF that is a walking stick. Not a sling, not a club. no sling bullets. No daggers. You have to pick up and throw rocks or something.
Not true. Reading the feat Description, it merely notes that the Quarterstaff is a popular choice because it doubles as a walking stick. It does not say it has to just be a Quarterstaff, or that you may only possess one non-magical simple weapon. Indeed the only thing that seems to restrict VoP characters and Simple weaponry, is that you can't take it to an extreme, I.E. no hundreds of Gold worth of Daggers or clubs, or anything like that. but you can still carry a few of them to a "reasonable" amount it seems

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, it is really ambiguous. It says you can only use simple weapons, but doesn't capitalize that. And then it lists the things you are allowed to have, saying a quarterstaff that functions as a walking stick, leaving it ambiguous if you are allowed any simple weapons beyond that... as best as I can figure, there is a small list of things you are allowed to have... and that's it. No holy symbol, for example; that is apparently intentional!

[Darth Stabber]

If you are going to take VoP you need some source of flight, that's only the beginning. There are other things that you need, but flight is the most glaring.

Dragonborn, Raptoran, any winged template, or a polymorphic effect meet this requirement. But you also want to take a class that has issues with using items. Druids take a lot of finaggling to be able to use most common magic items (you need to order a pallet full of wilding clasps). Incarnates and totemists have class features that turn off magic item slots. Taking VoP with those classes is just giving up on trying to make equipment work for you, still getting the benefits without having to work around your class features. They all have access to commonly necessary effects via class features meaning that the loses are taken out of niceties instead of needs. The problem is there aren't enough useful exalted feats useful for incarnum classes (druid still has to take some that don't much help).

[Chronos]

Vow of Poverty is both incredibly powerful and incredibly weak. It all depends on why you're taking it.

If you see the feat in the book, say "Wow, that's powerful! I'm going to give up all my items so I can get that awesome power!", you're going to end up far behind. Everything that the feat gives you, you can replicate with items, with a ton of wealth left over.

But that's not the purpose of the feat. The purpose of the feat is for someone who thinks "It'd make for a really cool story if I had a character who's given up the use of all items. I want to make a character like that.". Now, in normal D&D, trying to do that would mean that you would suck so absolutely that you'd be completely useless, and would be nothing but a drag on the rest of the party. But Vow of Poverty takes that concept, and makes it just about mostly viable. Still very weak, mind you, but far, far better than you'd be without items and without the feat. On a character who's going to give up items anyway, Vow of Poverty is by far the most powerful feat ever.

[panaikhan]

In my group, I have seen two VoP Monks (two different players, none of them me)
One Warforged (Eberron), one Githzerai (WLD)
Both seem to be doing fairly well for themselves, but I wouldn't call either party exactly 'optimized'

[Gorfnod]

Vow of Poverty is both incredibly powerful and incredibly weak. It all depends on why you're taking it.

STUFF...

On a character who's going to give up items anyway, Vow of Poverty is by far the most powerful feat ever.

Have to agree with Chronos here. VoP was designed with roleplaying in mind and is clearly not for power.

If you are looking for something with a little more kick however, I believe Drolyt's Vow of Poverty Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) is commonly assumed to be one of the more balanced fixes and is about on par with wealth per level (taking in to account that your "items" can't be taken away).

[The Troubadour]

In a 4-year 3.5 campaign I ran a few years ago, it helped a lot. But in said campaign we used a different point-buy method - one that allowed the monk to start with DEX 18, CON 14 and WIS 18, for instance -, there were very few magic items (and even those were chosen by me), and there wasn't much combat per game session.

[Myth]

Take a look at the Saint template, OP. That will be better for your character for sure.

[Lord_Gareth]

Have to agree with Chronos here. VoP was designed with roleplaying in mind and is clearly not for power.

If you are looking for something with a little more kick however, I believe Drolyt's Vow of Poverty Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) is commonly assumed to be one of the more balanced fixes and is about on par with wealth per level (taking in to account that your "items" can't be taken away).

If I say to you that the CWar Samurai was designed with role-playing in mind rather than power, does that excuse the fact that it's an insult to every single player in 3.5's run that likes melee or samurai archetypes?

[Talya]

Hinder.

Next question.


Okay okay. Look at it this way.

With a day's food, a quarterstaff, and the clothes on his back, how precisely does a level 20 Monk not automatically die to a Pixie?

Pixies have DR Cold Iron (which a VoP Monk can't bypass), greater invisibility, flight, and a ranged attack that they can use while hidden, flying, and invisible.



Minor point: The only relevant issue the Level 20 monk has with a pixie is flight. Beyond that, the level 20 VOP monk will utterly destroy a pixie. VOP grants permanent trueseeing, and the monk does so much damage on a hit that the pitiful DR cold iron is pretty much irrelevant - one hit and the pixie is dead.

Of course, it's a pixie. And you're dealing with a level 20 monk...and it still has issues with flight. VOP is a bad idea on a monk, without question. But we don't need to exaggerate its problems, because they're already terrible. The monk can see the pixie, it can hit the pixie, and it can hurt the pixe. It just can't REACH the pixie.

[Answerer]

3.5 is hideous at handling low-wealth or low-magic, whether it be an entire campaign or a single character. If you want such a campaign or such a character, your interests would be much better served by finding a system that supported those concepts; 3.5 does not, and Vow of Poverty is terrible because it pretends that it does, leading to a trap for those interested in such a campaign or characters. Wizards never should have lied to players and claimed that this was workable within the system, but they did and now here we are.


On a character who's going to give up items anyway, Vow of Poverty is by far the most powerful feat ever.
No, it isn't. Yes, it's not a huge self-nerf in that case, and quite possibly worth taking, but there are still more powerful feats.

Like, say, Natural Spell. Which, if you're running around with items, you should have, because you should be a druid. Or Leadership; having (almost) twice the character can make up for a lot of item issues.

[Rejusu]

Well actually, I take back part of my initial reply, as I just realized part of the problem. What I think is powerful, seems to be at a lower level than what many posting here are used to. (Typically for me, it's Core, + maybe 1 or two extra source books, so far being limited to things like PHB II and The Complete series) So in that case, allow me add a new question then to the discussion.

At which point does VoP become a hindrance that just can not be ignored. I.E. what is the campaign style/level of difficulty, in which no amount of bonus Exalted feats, "Free" Ability enhancement, 3 different forms of AC enhancement and Role playing the character, can redeem it's usage? Or is it the kind of feat, that with the sole exception of Low magic Item games, it's just terrible?

It would take a severe reduction in WBL/magic for it to become worthwhile. It's so much of a hindrance that even characters that don't rely on magic items still become sub-optimal with it. It's only when you start getting into characters that can't really rely on magic items (like the Totemist) that it starts to become "okay". I don't think it'd ever be powerful though, not unless you were restricted to having no magic items whatsoever anyway.

If you like to play things like Monk but don't want to be sub-optimal you could always look for something that has the same sort of feel but is actually decent. One of the great things about 3.5 is there's so much redundancy that it's easy enough to find more optimal versions of poorly executed classes. Tashalatora Psychic Warrior or Unarmed Swordsage make good substitutes for Monk.

[Particle_Man]

If I say to you that the CWar Samurai was designed with role-playing in mind rather than power, does that excuse the fact that it's an insult to every single player in 3.5's run that likes melee or samurai archetypes?

Hey some people like playing Tier 6 games. Don't be a Tier 6 Hater! :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

Quoth Lord_Gareth:

If I say to you that the CWar Samurai was designed with role-playing in mind rather than power, does that excuse the fact that it's an insult to every single player in 3.5's run that likes melee or samurai archetypes?Not the same thing at all. It's always been possible to play a samurai in D&D; the samurai class is right there in the Player's Handbook. "Samurai" is just the Japanese word for "Fighter". The class in Complete Warrior doesn't let you do anything new; it just lets you do something you could already do, but do it worse.

It has not, however, always been possible to play a character without items. Trying to do so wasn't just a nerf; it was so difficult as to be effectively impossible. With Vow of Poverty, something that was not possible at all before becomes possible (albeit weak).

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hey some people like playing Tier 6 games. Don't be a Tier 6 Hater! :smallsmile:

So warriors, commoners and CW Samurai? Really I can't see the fun in that...

[Rejusu]

So warriors, commoners and CW Samurai? Really I can't see the fun in that...

Neither can I. But whenever people try to turn people away from playing sub-optimal classes someone always show up to say that we just think everyone should pay tier 1 batman wizards. When all we really want to do is push them towards playing something more fun that can do more things.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I like to play lower tier classes, Rogue and Warlocks are some of my favourite classes (and arquetypes) ever; but really playing a tier 6 means anyone and I mean anyone can do more than you and even if you have some trick (say Bubs the commoner) they can usually do it better (Imagine a druid that made the same investment as Bubs...scary isn't it?).

Of course if the point of the campaign is playing tier 6 character, play that if you like; but please don't ask me to play because I wouldn't enjoy that.

[Mithril Leaf]

Speaking of Vow Of Poverty and relative strength, whereabouts would a Planar Shepherd with Vow Of Poverty rank? Does one of the most powerful classes in the game handle VoP well?

[Flickerdart]

Speaking of Vow Of Poverty and relative strength, whereabouts would a Planar Shepherd with Vow Of Poverty rank? Does one of the most powerful classes in the game handle VoP well?
Planar Shepherd isn't strong because of items. You could strip one naked, drain him of spell slots and then set him on fire, and he would still instantly kill you in the following round.

[Darth Stabber]

Planar Shepherd isn't strong because of items. You could strip one naked, drain him of spell slots and then set him on fire, and he would still instantly kill you in the following round.

+1 for truth.

As I stated earlier, druid is a tough class to equip, especially without MiC, and you have access to all the effects that a party would commonly need access to. Items offer a druid 2 things: numerical bonuses and spell completion items. VoP has a lot of numerical bonuses, and spell completion items aren't strictly necessary, they just allow you to have more spells at hand than just what you prepped that morning. VoP is about half of what the druid would have from items and these bonuses aren't dispellable or pilferable, so long as you keep on the straight and narrow. Personally I don't take away VoP for alignment breach, only for breaking the vow itself (and I'm considering taking away the prereq, possibly even making it a trait).

[Particle_Man]

So warriors, commoners and CW Samurai? Really I can't see the fun in that...

And from Rejusu, (don't want to isolate Dusk Eclipse, especially as DE allows that others could have fun in a Tier 6 game):


But whenever people try to turn people away from playing sub-optimal classes someone always show up to say that we just think everyone should pay tier 1 batman wizards. When all we really want to do is push them towards playing something more fun that can do more things.

Not only do some people have fun with it, recently there was someone on this very forum having fun with a low tier 5 high tier 6 game playing a soulknife.

You didn't really think that everyone only enjoys what you enjoy, did you?
:smallwink:

[Talya]

VoP is about half of what the druid would have from items and these bonuses aren't dispellable or pilferable, so long as you keep on the straight and narrow. Personally I don't take away VoP for alignment breach, only for breaking the vow itself (and I'm considering taking away the prereq, possibly even making it a trait).



VOP is actually slightly more than a druid would have for numerical bonuses with WBL gear, although that's only because it gives a couple epic-level modifiers.* VOP ony costs them the spell completion items. If your DM doesn't allow wilding clasps (and what sane DM would unless the entire party was tier 1?), VOP is a flat-out increase for druids who focus on wildshaping and physical combat. Of course, it's not optimal for a druid to focus on wildshaping and physical combat.


* - There is no way to get a +8 item without epic prices, which a VOP character gets by 19. No, this is not in lieu of inherent bonuses. A VOP Character will still get those at the same rate as the rest of her party as a matter of course.

[Telonius]

Does it help or hinder? Yes.

Vow of Poverty is not about making classes more powerful. It's about turning an otherwise totally unplayable concept (a person who's given up all material possessions) into something that's almost approaching playable. So in that sense, yes, if you've already decided your character isn't going to own anything then it's a tremendous help.

But in almost every case (not going to say "every" given the charop talents around here...) the character you end up with will be mechanically weaker than if you hadn't taken the feat. So in that sense, it's a big hindrance. The difference might not be as noticeable if the rest of your party is very low-op, or if the setting is low-magic in general; but it's still an issue.

[eggs]

* - There is no way to get a +8 item without epic prices, which a VOP character gets by 19.
Pearl of Power V: 25,000 gp

[Keld Denar]

Planar Shepherd isn't strong because of items. You could strip one naked, drain him of spell slots and then set him on fire, and he would still instantly kill you in the following round.

Doubly so, if you were a ninja. Everyone knows that a ninja can't grapple you if you're on fire.

[Answerer]

It's about turning an otherwise totally unplayable concept (a person who's given up all material possessions) into something that's almost approaching playable.
Except it fails to do that while lying to players that it is possible. By claiming to do something so radical, and then failing to do so, printing Vow of Poverty actually hurt players, since it leads them into the trap of thinking it will work.

Of course, 3.5 is full of traps so this isn't really anything new; at least one developer claimed that the traps were intentional because WotC thought rewarding system mastery was a good idea (hey, it worked great in Magic!). Though I've heard lots of skepticism that said author wasn't just trying to save face.

[deuxhero]

No, this is not in lieu of inherent bonuses. A VOP Character will still get those at the same rate as the rest of her party as a matter of course.

VoP characters are allowed to use 1 use expensive magic items and have them count against their own WBL?

[Dusk Eclipse]

VoP characters are allowed to use 1 use expensive magic items and have them count against their own WBL?

Emmm no, VoP doesn't allow any kind of magic or even expensive item. You can however carry gold assuming you intend to donate it towards a charity IIRC.

[Answerer]

But a Vow of Poverty character can simply have Wish cast on him or her.

[Darth Stabber]

But a Vow of Poverty character can simply have Wish cast on him or her.

It's true, and there are rules associated with the feat for spending XP in lieu of expensive material components. If you want to get really obnoxious, you can also try to grab the saint template while you're at it, giving new definition to "holier than thou". That might be my next gestalt character.

Druid20/pixie4/unarmed swordsage2/saint2/totemist12 with VoP. Your only need possesions are holly and mistletoe, (sadly no bow for your pixie arrows :smallfrown: ). At 8th level assuming a base of 18 and both lvl based statups and VoP statup go to it, your wisdom will be 26. At 20, without wishes it will be 35, you get a head of the curve for a while, and still end up with a casting stat high enough to compete. With wishes you get 40 wis, which means you get almost as many bonus spells as your base allotment, and your 9s have a dc of 36, before any feats are applied. And your AC will be something to the tune of 59 before any spells or soulmelds.

[candycorn]

Minor point: The only relevant issue the Level 20 monk has with a pixie is flight. Beyond that, the level 20 VOP monk will utterly destroy a pixie. VOP grants permanent trueseeing, and the monk does so much damage on a hit that the pitiful DR cold iron is pretty much irrelevant - one hit and the pixie is dead.

Of course, it's a pixie. And you're dealing with a level 20 monk...and it still has issues with flight. VOP is a bad idea on a monk, without question. But we don't need to exaggerate its problems, because they're already terrible. The monk can see the pixie, it can hit the pixie, and it can hurt the pixe. It just can't REACH the pixie.

But that is the whole point.

Anything with flying kinda screws you over. That pixie sits 60 feet up, and nothing the monk can do can possibly hurt it (rocks, as improvised thrown weapons, have a 10 foot increment, 5 increments max). Monk's only real move is running away... Which it can do well, at least.

[Krazzman]

It is more a question about playstyle. We have to ask ourselves, from what point on will this be better.

Example:
The Group we(my GF and I) played with for the first 4 or 5 years was a pretty low wealth group. Most of the time we played oneshots, started about level 1 to 4, rarely higher. Now the bonus point of starting on this level was: Starting Gold 200 GP. Flat for everyone. Or to a maximum of 1000 GP (and 2 exceptions of ~2500 GP from WBL and one starting on level 14 where we were fullstripped at the start of the one-shot...).

As you can see we would get the first good magic items (effectively +2 weapons) along the line of level 10+ IF this would've been a campaign.

In such an environment it would be beneficial to say F*** this S***! I'll take vow of poverty.

Now in our new group I seem to notice a good chunk of wealth that we get, but sadly we are trapped in a swamp for now. We started on level 1 and are halfway to level 4 already and got 2 Wands, huge amounts of potions, a mithral chainshirt, masterworked equivalents for all our equipment and we could've taken more with us, but we had no use for it. In such a game it would be not that beneficial to take VoP.

In the general term, as it has been stated VoP comes online at exactly 1 opportunity. If you would've taken the disadvantages anyhow.

[Talya]

VoP characters are allowed to use 1 use expensive magic items and have them count against their own WBL?

Donating to charity builds goodwill. BOED specifically states temples will pay back this goodwill in kind with things such as casting services. The type of temple you might have donated hundreds of thousands of gold to would not have any trouble finding a wizard among its parishoners with the "Wish" spell.

[killianh]

I've played a VoP monk build before and it can be really for RP but not so much in the power department. Monk is just too weak of a start if you need to place him beside some of the other classes.

That said though if you really want to play this class I would suggest taking the prestige class Forsaker from the book "masters of the wild". It's a class that gets tons of bonuses for not using magic, and if you really want to play the Vop monk I would recommend taking all 10 levels of the Forsaker and starting it as soon as you can enter it.

[Rejusu]

You didn't really think that everyone only enjoys what you enjoy, did you?
:smallwink:

I can probably say with a reasonable degree of confidence though that you're likely the minority rather than the majority. Besides, Soulknife isn't just sub-optimal it's plain bad. There's really no excuse for ever using it when you there's a much better version available (the PF SK) that actually has class features that can't be replaced by a small gold investment. It doesn't even have interesting fluff, you're only psionic in name only.

I'd take a monk over the soulknife any day.

[Darth Stabber]

I can probably say with a reasonable degree of confidence though that you're likely the minority rather than the majority. Besides, Soulknife isn't just sub-optimal it's plain bad. There's really no excuse for ever using it when you there's a much better version available (the PF SK) that actually has class features that can't be replaced by a small gold investment. It doesn't even have interesting fluff, you're only psionic in name only.

I'd take a monk over the soulknife any day.

Actually there is an acf for psywar that also replaces soulknife, but giving a psionic power for calling a weapon and then offering enhancement bonuses based on level, and weapon abilities based on augmentation.

[lord_khaine]

But that is the whole point.

Anything with flying kinda screws you over. That pixie sits 60 feet up, and nothing the monk can do can possibly hurt it (rocks, as improvised thrown weapons, have a 10 foot increment, 5 increments max). Monk's only real move is running away... Which it can do well, at least.

You mean, except for pulling out his sling or his stack of javlins?

Both are simple weapons, and he doesnt have any limit on the use of those.

[Gnorman]

Donating to charity builds goodwill. BOED specifically states temples will pay back this goodwill in kind with things such as casting services. The type of temple you might have donated hundreds of thousands of gold to would not have any trouble finding a wizard among its parishoners with the "Wish" spell.

But you'll have to be extremely lucky to find a wizard capable of casting Wish who still bothers with petty things like "Gods" and "Temples." Most wizards at that point are well on their way to becoming gods, if they haven't already.

[Talya]

But you'll have to be extremely lucky to find a wizard capable of casting Wish who still bothers with petty things like "Gods" and "Temples." Most wizards at that point are well on their way to becoming gods, if they haven't already.

Just about as lucky as you'd have to be to find a wizard who is willing to spend 25,000 experience making a tome of anything. (and by extension, finding a tome of anything in a shop.)

If you're willing to handwave the finding of tomes and manuals, finding a temple with a wizard on retainer is a nobrainer.

[Lord_Gareth]

Just about as lucky as you'd have to be to find a wizard who is willing to spend 25,000 experience making a tome of anything. (and by extension, finding a tome of anything in a shop.)

If you're willing to handwave the finding of tomes and manuals, finding a temple with a wizard on retainer is a nobrainer.

Why not just find a cleric to cast Miracle for it?

[Answerer]

Why not just find a cleric to cast Miracle for it?
Uh... because Miracle doesn't have that function?

From the Tomes & Manuals thread:

While Wish has a back-to-back casting requirement for inherent ability boosts, Miracle does not. If the deity agrees, you can get +1 more inherent boost any time with Miracle, up to the limit of +5 total. (Either Wish or Miracle can be used to craft a Tome or Manual.)
The Miracle spell itself actually doesn't have ANY text relating to inherent bonuses to spells. You could categorize it under "very powerful request" I suppose. All the same, it doesn't provide any exception to the "bonuses of the same name don't stack" law, while Wish does.
It's up to the whim of the deity to do that; while I'd probably do it without a second thought for a VoP Monk (provided I allowed VoP or Monk in my games, which I don't because I expect the players to maintain a certain level of competence), in general I would not allow Miracle to be used for that.

[Talya]

Uh... because Miracle doesn't have that function?

From the Tomes & Manuals thread:

It's up to the whim of the deity to do that; while I'd probably do it without a second thought for a VoP Monk (provided I allowed VoP or Monk in my games, which I don't because I expect the players to maintain a certain level of competence), in general I would not allow Miracle to be used for that.


Indeed. And in the case of a druid with VOP, you may be disinclined to allow miracle for that function, because a druid with VOP is still a damned effective Tier 1.

(I love the druid class with vow of poverty. So much more ... fun than with gear. Not more powerful, for certain, but for me, much more fun. Gear-reliance is fugly, I much prefer a character to be self-contained and self-reliant, not dependant on gear at all. Druid is about the only class you can optimize half-decently with VOP. Problem is, a VOP-Druid will still break your game like any Tier 1.)

[Andorax]

From what I've seen, VoP is a decent idea in theory, but falls short in several key areas (all of which have been brought up here).

My personal take on it is that the shortcomings of the VoP can be largely overcome by using the main vehicle (granted Exalted feats) provided by the VoP itself. Thus, a handful of additional Exalted feats provides a mechanism for filling in some of its largest shortcomings.

Quite some time ago, I tossed these out in Homebrew, but very little came of it discussion-wise. I'd offer them up as a potential suggestion that might make VoP more workable, particularly for a non-caster like the Monk:

Nimbus of Light (addendum)
The Nimbus of Light is considered a 0-level "light" spell for the purpose of overcomming, and being overcome by, magical darkness. Each additional [light] feat taken by the PC increases the level of the Nimbus of Light by +1. What's more, Holy Radiance and Stigmata are considered [light] feats.

Commentary: Light and Darkness in D&D interact on the basis of levels...assigning the Nimbus of Light an "effective level" helps determine what darkness overcomes, and can be overcome, by it.

Vow of Honesty [Exalted]
You have taken a sacred vow to speak no lies.

Prerequisite: Sacred Vow

Benefit: You gain a +10 perfection bonus to any Sense Motive check that involves determining if someone else is lying or attempting to hide something.

Special: To fulfill your vow, you cannot lie in any way (spoken, written, pantomime, etc.). You are not compelled to speak...remaining silent is a valid choice. If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell.

Initiates of Pistis Sophia may select Vow of Honesty as one of their bonus Vow feats.

Vow of Silence [Exalted]
You have taken a sacred vow not to speak.

Prerequisite: Sacred Vow, Silent Spell (for some benefits)

Benefit: You receive a +4 perfection bonus to Listen and Move Silent checks. If you posess the Silent Spell feat, any spells you cast are affected as if by the Silent Spell metamagic feat, with no increase in level cost or casting time.

Special: To fulfill your vow, you cannot speak, nor make any other intentional vocal noises (involuntarially crying out in pain does not count). If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell.

Initiates of Pistis Sophia may select Vow of Silence as one of their bonus Vow feats.

Spells that, by their very nature, cannot be silenced (Bard spells, for instance) do not gain the benefit specified by this feat.

Commentary: Free silent spell is a sizable benefit, but it's also a sizable sacrifice to gain it. What's more, it's paid with the added feat-cost of taking Silent Spell as well.

Light of Truth [Exalted, Light]
When the Nimbus of light shines from you, all those standing within it are compelled to speak only the truth.

Prerequisites: Cha 17, Nimbus of Light, Sacred Vow, Vow of Honesty.

Benefit: Whenever your Nimbus of Light is active, anyone within it's direct illumination (5', or 10' with Holy Radiance active) is affected as if by a Zone of Truth with a save DC equal to 10 + 1/2 your Character level + your Charisma modifier.

Light of Discernment [Exalted, Light]
When the Nimbus of light shines from you, all things that would otherwise be invisible are rendered visible.

Prerequisites: Wis 17, Nimbus of Light.

Benefit: Whenever your Nimbus of Light is active, the area of it's direct illumination (5', or 10' with Holy Radiance active) is affected as if by an Invisibility Purge.

Light of Revelation [Exalted, Light]
When the Nimbus of light shines from you, all things are shown to be as they truly are.

Prerequisites: Wis 19, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radience, Light of Discernment, Sacred Vow, Vow of Honesty.

Benefit: Whenever your Nimbus of Light is active, the area of it's direct illumination (5', or 10' with Holy Radiance active) is visible to any onlookers as if they had True Sight active.

Light of Wrath [Exalted, Light]
When the Nimbus of light shines from you, the unrighteous cannot bear to look upon you.

Prerequisites: Cha 15, Nimbus of Light.

Benefit: Whenever your Nimbus of Light is active, any evil, sighted opponent who attempts to attack you is dazzled for one round.

Light of Consecration [Exalted, Light]
Blessed is the ground you walk upon.

Prerequisites: Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance, Cha 15

Benefit: The area currently illuminated by your Nimbus of Light (10, or 20' with Holy Radiance active) is affected as if by the Consecreate spell.

Commentary: Of particular use in undead-focused campaigns, or campaigns where vile damage makes regular appearances. It can be quite frustrating to have to cart around a wand of consecration to have to heal up between fights.

Adaptive Exalted Defense [Exalted]
Your righteousness can manifest itself in different ways to better suit the path you have chosen.

Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Poverty-granted Exalted AC Bonus of +6 or higher.

Benefit: You may convert up to half of your Exalted AC Bonus granted benefit (rounded down) from actual plusses to AC into "+ cost" armor boosts selected from the Book of Exalted Deeds or the DMG.

Spending a week in solitude and meditation allows you to alter these chosen benefits. You may likewise alter them with only 24 hours of solitude and meditation each time the potential benefit would increase (at +8 and again at +10).

Example: Knowing that he will face a cabal of necromancers, Kiana, a Monk 6/Initiate of Pistis Sophia 8, prays and replaces her +8 Exalted bonus to AC with a +4 Exalted bonus, and the benefit of the Soulfire magic armor enhancement.

Commentary: There is a great deal of flexibility lost in getting only straight-up AC boosts instead of having access to the host of alternative resistances, bonuses, boosts and the like available through magical armor. This provides a means of recapturing some of that benefit, and through it, access to a lot of the lost flexibility in the Vow of Poverty. Restricting it to the BoED and DMG is an attempt to avoid unintended consequences, and is negotiatable (both in the discussion in this thread and individually with DMs). I may drop that limitation entirely if it's felt that it is overly restrictive.

The week-long meditations is to cut down on continuous situational shifting, but avoids the complete dead-ending of a benefit that can't be altered (where magical armor could be sold or traded).

Adaptive Exalted Assault [Exalted]
Your righteousness can manifest itself in different ways to better suit the path you have chosen.

Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Poverty-granted Exalted Strike bonus of +2 or greater

Benefit: You may convert all but 1 plus of your granted Exalted Strike benefit from actual plusses to hit and damage into "+ cost" melee weapon boosts selected from the Book of Exalted Deeds or the DMG.

Spending a week in solitude and meditation allows you to alter these chosen benefits. You may likewise alter them with only 24 hours of solitude and meditation each time the potential benefit would increase (at +3, +4 and again at +5).

Commentary: See Adapted Exalted Defense...the same reasoning applies.

On Angel's Wings [Exalted, Light]
Your purity of faith is made manifest in glowing, angelic wings that literally lift you up in your faith.

Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance

Benefit: While your Nimbus of Light is active, you gain a flight speed equal to your ground speed (Maneuverability average).

Commentary: One of the most oft-quoted weaknesses of the Vow of Poverty is the inability to fly that can't be shored up by items. While alternative means of flight do exist, they're not avaialble to everyone and in some cases, they're considered vital. On Angel's Wings provides both a compelling visual and an important limitation...it only functions so long as the Nimbus of Light does. With the addendum listed above to how Nimbus of Light interacts with darkness spells, it provides a potential means for countering this ability (and, through taking additinal Light feats, a means of defending against it as well).

Originally, I had thought of tying it to a specific minimum level, as flight is a potent ability, but with the restriction of it being vulnerable to Darkness and the feat pre-requisites, it seems fairly well balanced. The weakness can be shored up in later levels.

Righteous Pursuit [Exalted]
Evil cannot flee from your presence.

Prerequisites: 2 or more Exalted feats

Benefit: If an evil opponent within your reach takes a 5' step away from you, you may take an immediate action to move to the nearest square that still allows you to threaten this foe.

If you have 4 or more Exalted feats, and an evil opponent within your reach moves away from you, you may take an immediate action to make a single move to the nearest square that still allows you to threaten this foe (or the closest square to it, if a standard move for you is insufficient to reach that square).

If you have 6 or more Exalted feats, and an evil opponent within your reach uses a [teleportation] ability, you may take an immediate action to teleport to any location within sight that still allows you to threaten this foe.

If you have 10 or more Exalted feats, and an evil opponent within your line of sight uses a [teleportation] ability, you may take an immediate action to teleport to any location on the same plane that allows you to threaten this foe.

If you have 12 or more Exalted feats, and an evil opponent within your line of sight uses a [teleportation] or planar travel ability, you may take an immediate action to teleport to any location that allows you to threaten this foe.

Commentary: Another one of the weaknesses of some Vow of Poverty characters (who don't otherwise have the ability through class features) is tactical teleportation. While limited in the sense that it only allows teleporting after, not teleporting away, Righteous Pursuit does help resolve the problem of a persistantly retreating foe. It runs the risk, however, of leaving the exalted character unsupported, or even stranded, so it would be wise to use this with caution.

[Talya]

From what I've seen, VoP is a decent idea in theory, but falls short in several key areas (all of which have been brought up here).

My personal take on it is that the shortcomings of the VoP can be largely overcome by using the main vehicle (granted Exalted feats) provided by the VoP itself. Thus, a handful of additional Exalted feats provides a mechanism for filling in some of its largest shortcomings.

Quite some time ago, I tossed these out in Homebrew, but very little came of it discussion-wise. I'd offer them up as a potential suggestion that might make VoP more workable, particularly for a non-caster like the Monk:



I have on a few occasions suggested the same style of fix, by providing additional exalted feats that shore up the perceived weaknesses of VOP.

[Answerer]

A much easier idea would be to allow a feat to allow a player to donate material goods to charity, and gain bonuses equivalent to items they could have bought with those things. The feat tax and the fact that you'll basically always have to "sell" your items even if you'd want to "keep" them probably make up for the fact that you can't "lose" these "items" in most campaigns anyway.

That way is massively simpler, and doesn't completely change all the expectations of the game.

[Lord_Gareth]

A much easier idea would be to allow a feat to allow a player to donate material goods to charity, and gain bonuses equivalent to items they could have bought with those things. The feat tax and the fact that you'll basically always have to "sell" your items even if you'd want to "keep" them probably make up for the fact that you can't "lose" these "items" in most campaigns anyway.

That way is massively simpler, and doesn't completely change all the expectations of the game.

Plus imagine an Exalted Bard, loyal to the Court of Stars, that gets the magical ability to use those pigment things.

Tell me that's not awesome. TELL ME!

[Talya]

I'm currently playing a lesser aasimar "Fey Druid" (standard druid spellcasting based off charisma instead of wisdom, and a creature type "Fey.") She has the magic-blooded template, and worships Lurue, the unicorn goddess in Faerun. She has a unicorn for a companion (and natural bond to offset the high level companion penalty).

Despite the thought excersize in my signature, she's also my first nude character. I decided that apart from a crude stone-bladed shortspear and a small component pouch, she carries absolutely no gear at all. VOP is perfect for her, and she's an absolute blast to play.

[Cirrylius]

Is there a mechanical reason that VoP has a prerequisite feat apart from pure fluff? Considering the general consensus is that the feat blows, and most people seem to want to use it purely for roleplaying purposes, and the two feats don't really have much to do with each other? I wanna play an evil character with no equipment to keep track of, dammit!

[Darth Stabber]

Is there a mechanical reason that VoP has a prerequisite feat apart from pure fluff? Considering the general consensus is that the feat blows, and most people seem to want to use it purely for roleplaying purposes, and the two feats don't really have much to do with each other? I wanna play an evil character with no equipment to keep track of, dammit!

Probably because voluntary poverty is more likely to be associated with those of good alignment. As a GM, if a player says to me "I want to make your life easier so you don't have to figure out loot for me anymore", I'd let them do it for no feats at all. Actually figuring out what loot to drop has always been my least favorite part of GMing.

[The Glyphstone]

Is there a mechanical reason that VoP has a prerequisite feat apart from pure fluff? Considering the general consensus is that the feat blows, and most people seem to want to use it purely for roleplaying purposes, and the two feats don't really have much to do with each other? I wanna play an evil character with no equipment to keep track of, dammit!

It is thematically more appropriate for good characters, as mentioned. Now, you could always refluff it as an inverted Vow of Evil Worship; all treasure you collect is offered as a sacrifice to [Insert evil deity here], who rewards your unwavering devotion with divine favor. Swap the Sacred Vow prerequisite for something appropriate out of BoVD or a Fiendish Codex, award Vile or Abyssal Heritage feats in place of Exalted feats, and you're good to go.

[Cirrylius]

Swap the Sacred Vow prerequisite...

But why is there a prerequisite at all? The whole point of VoP, mechanically, is to replace the equipment mechanic, not to enhance the character's abilities. Requiring a feat for such a zero-sum character adjustment is bad enough, but requiring a feat prerequisite that only grants a piddling bonus to diplomacy? It seems like the whole thing would have been better introduced as some kind of class variant.

Anyway. I had a less alignment-centric version in mind, thematically centered around total animalistic reliance on self to overcome the need for... for stuff. Weapons, armor, magic, money- screw 'em. Rather than holy providence, brutal necessity would be all that's required to hone the body and mind to perfection.
I'm thinking replace the Deflection AC with dodge;
Replace Exalted AC with further Natural AC;
Replace Good Aligned strike with the ability to ignore the alignment component of DR;
Replace Sustenance with 1/3 daily dietary requirements and a bonus/immunity to ingested poisons;
Replace Greater Sustenance with a bonus/immunity to inhaled poisons and suffocation.
I'm not sure what to do with the bonus Exalted feats, or what a character would actually do with their share of the loot.

[Darth Stabber]

But why is there a prerequisite at all? The whole point of VoP, mechanically, is to replace the equipment mechanic, not to enhance the character's abilities. Requiring a feat for such a zero-sum character adjustment is bad enough, but requiring a feat prerequisite that only grants a piddling bonus to diplomacy? It seems like the whole thing would have been better introduced as some kind of class variant.

Anyway. I had a less alignment-centric version in mind, thematically centered around total animalistic reliance on self to overcome the need for... for stuff. Weapons, armor, magic, money- screw 'em. Rather than holy providence, brutal necessity would be all that's required to hone the body and mind to perfection.
I'm thinking replace the Deflection AC with dodge;
Replace Exalted AC with further Natural AC;
Replace Good Aligned strike with the ability to ignore the alignment component of DR;
Replace Sustenance with 1/3 daily dietary requirements and a bonus/immunity to ingested poisons;
Replace Greater Sustenance with a bonus/immunity to inhaled poisons and suffocation.
I'm not sure what to do with the bonus Exalted feats, or what a character would actually do with their share of the loot.

So you are making the feat markedly worse? The feat would be bad even if it were a trait, almost every change you make is a nerf.

Replace the exalted feats with a different feat list. You would have to sit down and carefully craft it. My temptation is to just use the fighter list, but that seems a touch strong. Also it needs some way to fly, maybe some free dim door ala monk, and maybe put mindblank on it.

[Cirrylius]

So you are making the feat markedly worse?
:smallmad: You get the idea. I'm trying to give examples where I'd switch it up so the mechanical additions reflect "natural" hardiness and extraordinary ability rather than being overtly magical. Obviously it'd have to be tweaked further to get the balance right.


Also it needs some way to fly
Maybe add a jump/climb Movement Rate.


maybe put mindblank on it.
:smallconfused:I thought VoP had mindblank.

[Gavinfoxx]

:smallconfused:I thought VoP had mindblank.

No, it has a watered down, crappy version that doesn't do what you need it to do.

[Darth Stabber]

I've been working on a gestalt build to get some good milage out of VoP, and what started as a PO exercise, may be a bit too strong even for a gestalt game (my limits were VoP and no PRCs).

NG pixie
Druid20//pixieLA4/unarmed swordsage2/saintLA2/spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian 1/totemist 11
Final stats (assuming 5 wishes for inherant wisdom bonuses, which does not violate the vow if cast by a friendly wizard, or miracled up by a friendly cleric)
Str8,Dex20,Con22,Int20,Wis40,Cha20
Feats
Pixie:weapon finesse
Pixie:dodge
Flaw(shaky):sacred vow
Lvl1:VoP
Lvl2:nymph's kiss (good and thematic)
Lvl3:extend spell (just generally useful)
Lvl4(exalted):Intuitive Attack (wis to attack with simple and natural weapons!)
Lvl6:natural spell(default)
Lvl6(exalted):celestial wildshape(add celestial template, use ex and su abilities)
Lvl8(exalted):celestial companion(animal companion gets celestial template)
Lvl9:multiattack(+3 to hit with everything but unarmed strikes, okay)
Lvl10(exalted):favored of the champions(nothing great left, may as well)
Lvl12:dragon wildshape(so good it should be default, especially with exalted wildshape)
Lvl12(exalted):touch of golden ice(1s still fail, and I throw a lot of attacks per round)
Lvl14(exalted):animal friend(I do use the skills it buffs, why not?)
Lvl15:Martial study(what ever the diamond mind fort save replacer, since I picked up the reflex one during swordsage)
Lvl16(exalted):nimbus of light(eh, no good ones left)
Lvl18:open greater chakra(throat)(even if it doesn't give me an extra bind it's worth it, but RAW and reason indicate it should)
Lvl18(exalted):holy radiance(sure, I'm a healer, a tank, a damage dealer, and now a reading lamp)
Lvl20(exalted):sanctify natural attack(it's the only one left that really provides any benefit that I would use)

AC in native form:61 (thanks to +15 from VoP and adding wis twice from both ss and saint)
Fort: 21 (or concentration check of +29)
Ref:19 (or concentration check of +29)
Will:30
HP:195 (assuming average rolls)

And I can turn into a huge celestial dragon, keep all of those nice ex and su abilities, and add 45 to it's ac, use it's massive Con to fuel my concentration checks on both fort and ref saves, and add several additional natural weapons and unarmed strikes to it's full attack with pounce.

If I was going to use PRCs, it would go something like druid9/lion of talasid10/druid1//pixieLA4/UASS2/saint LA2/warshaper1/totemist11, gaining immunit to crits and stunning, an extra natural weapon attack in any form I take, 10 rounds of haste perday, immunity to fear, a soupped up holy word 3/day as an SU, and another exalted feat (since lion of talasid gives exalted companion as a bonus feat), at the cost of whirling frenzy 1/day, 2 hp, timelass body, a thousand faces and 2 levels of wildshape (which amounts to 1 less elemental wildshape, no huge elementals, and 2hrs less duration). Not a bad trade off.

[willpell]

Personally I would go far out of my way to make a Vow of Poverty character feel at home in my game (and would have, if the player in question and me hadn't had a personality conflict which ended the campaign), and ditto for a monk, and double-ditto for both. I love the concept enough to be absurdly generous - not quite catching the character up to a well-optimized item buyer, but enough to make him seem like he's at home. I would go with tropes like Friend to All Animals and Immaculate Purity to suggest that the character is doing the right thing and that the Fates like him for it; he'd be getting celestials showing up to cast buffs on him for free all the time, perhaps even spirits that possess him and give him the benefits of items he's not allowed to buy - because inherently, buying means ownership and ownership means slavery, and the existence of elementals and fey and various spirits means that there's really no such thing as an inanimate object. Commerce is a contract for spiritually "mastering" the objects your purchase, making them "yours", which is why theft is a crime, but it also means you're not limited to using the item's powers when the item itself would approve. Ergo, the VOP character is slightly less powerful than his enemies, but they get that extra power in a fashion that he knows to be evil, even if normal people don't see it and almost all of them do it on a daily basis just to survive. Or the VOP character is just as powerful as his opponents, but only as long as he's nice to his possessing spirits and angelic protectors - that's a great way to make Alignment a visible reality in your game.


I have a kiiind of related question. Are there any ways to get VoP-style benefits for a non-good character? Basically I have an idea for a really bestial, feral, grew-up-in-the-underdark-alone kind of character... weapons, armor, money, magic items, hell, even CLOTHES are completely alien to him. Would a VoP variant be viable to keep him on par with characters of the same level?

When/if I ever get around to writing the Book of Miraculous Madness, a BOXD-equivalent for Chaos, I will be sure to include a "Compulsion for Self-Sufficiency" which is basically a reskin of VOP for nature-loving characters (read: feral and brutally murderous survivalists), the kind of thing that the Wild Elf god Fenmarel Mestarine would encourage.


I like to play lower tier classes, Rogue and Warlocks are some of my favourite classes (and arquetypes) ever; but really playing a tier 6 means anyone and I mean anyone can do more than you and even if you have some trick (say Bubs the commoner) they can usually do it better (Imagine a druid that made the same investment as Bubs...scary isn't it?).

For me the Expert NPC class is this. I want to be able to pick ten class skills so badly, but even if I throw out the Factotum, it's still very hard to justify how Expert can be better than a multiclass Ranger/Rogue/Psion or something (there are issues with multiclass penalties but also various possible workarounds). Some classes just were deliberately designed to suck, so much that even if you want to play them you almost physically can't.

[Jscabeen]

Here's my fix to the Monk in general and Vow of Poverty specifically: give Monks the psionic ability of Psychic Warriors, essentially creating a Gestalt Class that elevates Monk from tier 5 to tier 3-2. He/she won't enjoy the armor proficiency or weapon selections of Psychic Warrior, but does get the bonus feats (Psionic or Fighter Bonus lists only). Basically a Monk with a new psionic ability each level, perhaps limited to something "appropriate" for a semi-mystical path of Monastic Training or Spiritual Enlightenment or destroying D&D monsters :-)

Now for VOP. With careful psionic power and feat selections, the Monk becomes free from the magical equipment dependency that all other Characters suffer. Wisdom largely powers both classes, so no increased MAD. Finally, by combining 13 levels of Monk with 7 levels of Kensai (any timetable at all), the character hits level 20 with fists the equivalent of +7 weapons (my favorite application is +5 Holy), PLUS carefully chosen Exalted feats that enhance & expand combat capabilities.

NOW you've got a D&D Monk who'll pull his/her own weight and enjoy the thematic "free from Earthly concerns" role-playing!

[Theomniadept]

Vow of Poverty has two good uses:
1. It's sometimes fun to play VoP characters, my favorite being my magic kung-fu nudists.
2. It teaches DMs a lesson about WBL and why they need to listen to it.

[eggynack]

That's some thread necro right there. I'm somewhat thankful for it though. Looking at these breakdowns of druid itemization that don't even include trappings of the beast or metamagic rods of extend spell tells us just how far we've advanced where optimization understanding is concerned. That stuff seems so fundamental nowadays.