Help with a teleporting fighter? (No ToB) [Archive]

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McToomin

2012-04-19, 06:19 AM

Hey everyone. A friend of mine is starting up a 3.5 game soon (after we've spent the last year or so in Pathfinder), and I was interested in playing a teleporting fighter. Not long-range teleports, more like Nightcrawler from the X-Men. I got a yes on sleeve blades (Complete Scoundrel) that aren't daggers but instead full-sized swords (they won't be hidden and I'll need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but I just want them because I thought they would be cool).

Anyway, what would be the best way to go about as a teleporting fighter of some kind? As mention, no Tome of Battle, no Miniatures Handbook, and no campaign-specific (Eberron, Forgotten Realms) is allowed. I read something online about the Shadowlord prestige class. Is this worth going into, given my intended focus (I haven't had a chance to read about it yet). Should I grab a few levels of a fighting class, and then start advancing spellcasting (probably as a Sorcerer) and just make sure to take all teleporting spells, and then just spend my spell slots on those (this would let me be more versatile than the shadowlord I'm pretty sure since I'd also have other spells known if the situations arise). If so, what fighting class would be best to start out in? Is there a spellcasting class better than Sorcerer (I know Wizard is technically "better" but I'd rather not have to prepare the exact number of teleports I'll need each day since I hope to be doing it a lot)? I know about Abjurant Champion (full BAB and spellcasting) and Eldritch Knight (full BAB and 9/10th spellcasting, right?). Any other classes/prestige classes/feats/abilities I should know about? I'm pretty sure that there are feats that allow you to continue fighting after teleporting right?

So yeah, please help! I'm new-ish to D&D and while I love a lot of it, I'm not nearly familiar enough with it to find the mechanical way to make my character concept work. Thanks in advance!

Kuulvheysoon

2012-04-19, 06:27 AM

If this is the Shadowlord that I'm thinking of, you may have a problem.

You see, the only one I can think of that fits your description is the shadow-pouncing Teflammar Shadowlord, a prestige class from Unapproachable East... a Forgotten Realms book.

The only other teleporting fighters that come to mind (Yacthol Webrider, Blade of Orien) are also setting specific.

supermonkeyjoe

2012-04-19, 06:28 AM

Unfortunately you've missed out on one major option, blade of Orien from the Eberron book Dragonmarked does exactly what you want, lots of short ranged battlefield hops.

You may want to look at the Conjurer specialist wizard ACF from players handbook 2, it lets you teleport 10' as an immediate action INT times per day, replaces your familiar I believe.

Golden Ladybug

2012-04-19, 06:56 AM

What about the Horizon Walker? It can select Shifting as its first Planar Terrain, which grants it Dimension Door as a SLA, usable once every 1d4 rounds.

Eldariel

2012-04-19, 07:05 AM

Psychic Warrior or Psion (Nomad) can pull off something very Nightcrawlerish though they of course gain more distance in their Blinks. Wizard is the next option. Tome of Battle would be the only purely martial way of pulling this off; without it you will need to delve into some magic. Unfortunately both Crinti Shadow Marauder and Telflammar Shadowlord are Forgotten Realms so no Shadow Pounce for you. There's the "Sun School"-feat in Complete Warrior that's perhaps the closest estimate.

Either way, I'd probably just focus on getting Swift Action Teleportation (Quicken Spell or some Linked Power shenanigans depending on your path; Psionics also offers Schism for an extra Standard Action and thus a second Teleport in the round) and then Charging after the Teleport for a decent approximation and great mobility.

While it's probably significantly stronger (not to mention level 20 build) than you need, I'm still pasting the Chrono-Legionnaire here which is specifically a Nightcrawler-like Psionic Teleport-by-Attacker. I'm not so much suggesting you play one (it's pretty high up in the power curve in the end) but I'm posting it to highlight few of the options Psionics presents (significantly, Inconstant Location [Complete Psionics] + Divert Teleport, Teleport Trigger & Schism to generate a good framework for low-cost repeatable teleportation both before and after attacking).

So, I present unto thee Chrono-Legionnaire by Radical_Taoist and Tleilaxu_Ghost:
Character Name: The Chrono-Legionaire
System: Faerun
Polling: For Entry in both Restricted and Original Polls
http://pnmedia.gamespy.com/screenshots/pcnc/sketch03.jpg
"Run, Run, just as fast as you can! You can't catch me; I'm the ginger-bread man!"

Brief Description & Thematic Purpose: We didn't try to go for the ultimate stat monster with the most buffs, we went for the ultimate in mobility. The chrono-legionaire is capable of teleporting in (at medium range) and teleporting out at long range all while mixing in a full-round attack and regaining psionic focus in the same round. Psionics remain the king of long-term action novas.

Class/Levels: Nomad 3/Ranger 1/Nomad 1/Anarchic Initiate 3/Slayer 2/Fighter1/Slayer 8/Anarchic Initiate 1

Race: Human
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

Ability Scores:
Str: 22 [14 + 6 enhancement + 2 Inherent] (6)
Dex: 20 [14 +6 enhancement] (6)
Con: 20 [14 +6 enhancement] (6)
Int: 32 [16 + 5 (Level Increases) +6 enhancement +5 inherent] (10)
Wis: 18 [12 + 6 enhancement] (4)
Cha: 14 [8 + 6 enhancement] (0)
**Note: if assimilate is successfully used, all stats gain a +4 unnamed bonus for one hour.

Belt of Magnificence +6 200,000 gp (MiniHB)
Cloak of Resistance +5, 25,000 gp (DMG)
Ring of Protection +5, 50,000 gp (DMG)
Spiked Mithril Breast Plate +5 with +3 weapon enhancement and Defending, 79,350 (DMG)
Skin of the Defender, 32000 gp (XPH)
Tome of Clear Thoughts +5, 137,500
Shirt of Natural Armor +5, 50,000 gp (DMG)
Cold-Iron Great Sword +5 Valorous Mage-bane Evil Outsider Bane, 145375 (XPH, DMG, CAdv, UE)
Potion of Bless Weapon x5 (CL 2) 500 (DMG)
Torc of Power Preservation 36,000 (DMG)
Ring of Force Shield 8500 (DMG)
Boots of Skating 7000 (XPH)
Bag of Tricks (grey) 900 (DMG)
Pale Green Ioun Stone 30000 (DMG)

Total: 755,925
Tactical Statistics
Hit points = 8 + 4d4+3d6+2d8+1d8+8d8+1d6 = 81 + 20xCON = 181
Initiative: +7 [Dex + 2 unnamed (psi-crystal)]
Move Speeds:
45 land
60 [Psionic Fly] Fly
AC: 44 [10 base + 5 enhancement to natural AC + 4 unnamed to natural AC + 5 AC + 5 enhancement to AC + 3 unnamed (defending armor spikes) + 5 deflection + 5 dex + 2 Shield AC]
TAC: 23 [10 base + 3 unnamed + 5 dex + 5 deflection]
FFAC: 39 [10 base + 5 enhancement to natural AC + 4 unnamed to natural AC + 5 AC + 5 enhancement to AC + 3 unnamed (defending armor spikes) + 5 deflection +2 Shield AC]
**Note on AC Buffs: The above AC figures are "unbuffed." If under the effects of control body (as is the routine after 15th level), all of the above ACs increase by 6. (+11 int -5 dex). This brings the typical total AC to 50 when buffed. Furthermore, if one overchannels a force screen to 17 pp the gish gains an additional +8 shield bonus (a net increase of +6). Thus the most buffed AC this character can achieve is 56. This is possible without resorting to any forms that grant a natural armor bonus.
Saves:
Fort: 20 [9 Base+ 5 resistance + 5 consitution+1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +2 insight vs. lawful effects
Ref: 18 [7 Base + 5 resistance + 5 dexterity+1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +2 insight vs. lawful effects
Will: 25 [15 Base + 5 resistance +4 wisdom +1 competance]
Conditional Modifiers: +4 competance vs. compulsions and mind-affecting effects (lucid buffer), +2 insight bonus vs. compulsions or lawful effects.

The Gingerbread Man: Nimble Psicrystal
Grants the Chrono-Legionnaire +2 to all initiative checks.
Important Abilities: Share powers
For style points, we recommend making this little guy small, humanoid, and brown.

BUILD PROGRESSION:

Nomad: Psionic Weapon, (Overchannel), (Practiced Manifester),
Nomad:
Nomad: Psi-Crystal Affinity
Ranger: (Track)
Nomad:
Anarchic Initiate: Psionic Meditiation, [Chaotic Surge]
Anarchic Initiate
Anarchic Initiate: [Wild Surge +1, Psychic Enervation]
Illithid Slayer: Deep Impact, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +2)], [Enemy Sense]
Illithid Slayer: [Lucid Buffer]
Fighter: (Power Attack)
Illithid Slayer: Leap Attack, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +4)]
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: [Cerebral Blind], Expanded Knowledge (Control Body)
Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +6)
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: Expanded Knowledge (Schism), [Cerebral Immunity]
Illithid Slayer: , [Favored Enemy (Illithid +8)]
Anarchic Initiate: [Clarity of Confusion]

BAB: 17
Manifester Level: 17
Effective Manifester Level: 20
Power Points: 360 [250 + 11*(EML/2)]

BUILD PROGRESSION:

Ranger: Improved Bull Rush, (Track), (Power Attack),
Nomad: (Overchannel)
Nomad: Psi-Crystal Affinity
Nomad:
Nomad:
Anarchic Initiate: Practiced Manifester, [Chaotic Surge]
Anarchic Initiate
Anarchic Initiate: [Wild Surge +1, Psychic Enervation]
Illithid Slayer: EK (Psionic Lion's Charge), [Favored Enemy (Illithid +2)], [Enemy Sense]
Illithid Slayer: [Lucid Buffer]
Fighter: (Shock Trooper)
Illithid Slayer: Leap Attack, [Favored Enemy (Illithid +4)]
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer:
Illithid Slayer: [Cerebral Blind], Expanded Knowledge (Control Body)
Illithid Slayer: [Favored Enemy (Illithid +6)
Illithid Slayer: [Breach Power Resistance]
Illithid Slayer: Expanded Knowledge (Schism), [Cerebral Immunity]
Illithid Slayer: [Blast Feedback], [Favored Enemy (Illithid +8)]
Anarchic Initiate: [Clarity of Confusion]

Personally, I prefer this build as it has better power attack support than the original. This build is not capable of reliably hiting a Heca. With a brilliant weapon the best bonus it can get is a +51 to attack, versus the Heca's 58 brilliant AC. Not bad, but not perfect.

Against less... rediculous foes... this build has incredible preformance. Power attack penalties are absorbed by the heedless charge from shock trooper, and psionic lion's charge allows for extremely deadly charges. Against weakly armored opponents one can easily deal a lot of damage, to wit:

Assuming all hits and same buffs as in the Heca busting trick (except schism & bless weapon). Drop the valorous enhancement, outsider bane, and mage bane enhancements in favor of speed. This is just to make the build even more acceptable in any campaign. Now, the build is non-setting specific. Removing the cold iron material type can reduce costs greatly.

1. Swift action psionic lion's charge (augmented to 20 pp)
2. Headless Leap Attack.

Attack Bonus: [b]+44/+44/+39/+34 [17 base + 13 int + 5 enhancement + 2 charging + 7 insight]

Damage: 590 [5*(17 unnamed (psionic lion's charge) + 68 power attack + 13 int + 5 enhancement + 8 insight + 2d6 base)]

Even in an AMF the damage & attack is considerable:

Attack Bonus in AMF: +21 [17 base + 2 strength + 2 charging]

Damage: 78 [68 power attack + 3 strength + 2d6 base]

Class Requirements:
Anarchic Initiate (CPsi): Knowledge (Planes) 8, Knowledge (psionics) 8, Overchannel feat;
Illithid Slayer (XPH): Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4, Track feat;

--------Tactical Stats-------------Saves------------
1.--BAB: 0,---ML 1, EML--1,--Fort: 0, Ref: 0, Will: 2
2.--BAB: 1,---ML 2, EML--2,--Fort: 0, Ref: 0, Will: 3
3.--BAB: 1,---ML 3, EML--3,--Fort: 1, Ref: 1, Will: 3
4.--BAB: 2,---ML 3, EML--4,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 3
5.--BAB: 3,---ML 4, EML--5,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 5
6.--BAB: 3,---ML 5, EML--6,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 6
7.--BAB: 4,---ML 6, EML--7,--Fort: 3, Ref: 3, Will: 8
8.--BAB: 5,---ML 7, EML--8,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 8
9.--BAB: 6,---ML 7, EML--9,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 9
10. BAB: 7,---ML 8, EML-10,--Fort: 4, Ref: 4, Will: 10
11.-BAB: 8,---ML 8, EML-11,--Fort: 6, Ref: 4, Will: 10
12.-BAB: 9,---ML 9, EML-12,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 10
13.-BAB: 10,-ML 10, EML-13,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 11
14.-BAB: 11,-ML 11, EML-14,--Fort: 7, Ref: 5, Will: 11
15.-BAB: 12,-ML 12, EML-15,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 13
16.-BAB: 13,-ML 13, EML-16,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 13
17.-BAB: 14,-ML 14, EML-17,--Fort: 8, Ref: 6, Will: 14
18.-BAB: 15,-ML 15, EML-18,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 14
19.-BAB: 16,-ML 16, EML-19,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 14
20.-BAB: 17,-ML 17, EML-20,--Fort: 9, Ref: 7, Will: 15

Notable Class/Feat Abilities:
Wild Surge +1: By paying a 5% probability of dazing myself I gain +1 ML for all purposes and 1 free point of augmentation.
Chaotic Surge: By using either wild surge or overchannel I can opt to roll a d% dice to gain the following effects:
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel is unnaffected and functions normally
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects reduced by 50%
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects increased by 50%
25% probability that my wild surge/overchannel produces a power with its numeric effects maximized
Breach Power Resistance: Works against spell resistance as well when magic-psionic clarity is in effect. Every time the character succeeds in a hit in melee combat against an enemy he reduces their SR/PR by 1. These SR/PR reductions are cumulative and last 12 hours. The character must be psionically focused for this ability to function.
Cerebral Immunity: Basically I get a supernatural mind-blank effect that cannot be dispelled while I am psionically focused. Immunity to mind-affecting abilities is pretty handy. Note that the character can selectively allow certain mind-affecting powers to affect him, making this more versatile than mind-blank.
Leap Attack + Power Attack + Deep Impact: Nothing like a 4:1 return on a power attack with a two-handed weapon, especially when you resolve the attack as a touch attack.

(The following list is in the order in which the powers are acquired. The level of the power and which level it was obtained at is noted)

Vigor [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Prescience Offensive [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Precognition Offensive [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 1]
Force Screen [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 2]
Mind Thrust [1st level power, obtained at Character Level 2]
Evade Attack [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 3]
Dimension Swap [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 3]
Energy Stun [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 5]
Damp Power [2nd level power, obtained at Character Level 5]
Dimension Twister [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 6]
Dispel Psionics [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 6]
Touch Sight [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 7]
Energy Burst [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 7]
Psionic Fly [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 8]
Detect Hostile Intent [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 8]
Psionic Dimension Door [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 10]
Telekenetic Maneuver [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 10]
Anticipatory Strike [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 12]
Celestial Conduit [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 12]
Psionic Teleport [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 13]
Teleport Trigger [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 13]
Inconsistant Location [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 14]
Solicit Psi-Crystal [3rd level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Control Body [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Retrieve [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 15]
Divert Teleport [7th level power, obtained at Character Level 16]
Temporal Reiteration [5th level power, obtained at Character Level 17]
Energy Conversion [7th level power, obtained at Character Level 17]
True Metabolism [8th level power, obtained at Character Level 18]
Schism [4th level power, obtained at Character Level 18]
Mind over Energy [6th level power, obtained at Character Level 19]
Recall Death [8th level power, obtained at Character Level 19]
Assimilate[9th level power, obtained at Character Level 20]

Total Skill Points: 186

Just the skill ranks are provided below. Notable skills will include bonuses (at 20th level).

Jump: 32 [23 ranks +4 speed + 5 STR]
Knowledge [Psionics]: 8
Knowledge [Planes]: 8
Concentration: 23
Psicraft: 16
Survival: 23
Listen: 21
Spot: 21
Diplomacy: 25 [23 ranks +2 Cha]

Essentially, psionics have a little advantage over arcane, despite the deluge of broken spells, feats, and PrCs available to arcanists: action novas and power versatility.

Action gaining tricks:
Temporal Acceleration: (Available 14th level) It's just better than time stop for so many reasons, let me count the ways:
It's takes a swift action to manifest, so after you gain all those rounds for buffing, you can still take a full round attack
it's available at 11 ML, unlike time stop which is availabe at 17th CL at the earliest
Augmentable (read adjustable) number of rounds gained. Only need one round? Why spend too many pp? The base cost is only 11 pp.
Control Body + Solicit Psicrystal (Available 15th level): Basically this trick gives the psion one full round of mental actions each round (which he uses to regain focus and manifest powers) and one full round of physical actions each round (which he uses to attack with). It's like a two-for-one deal.
Schism (Available 18th level): It's really quite simple; you manifest this power and get a free standard action each round at a -6 ML penalty. Great for on the fly buffing. It lasts rounds per level making it vastly superior to the arcane celerity, which grants only one standard action. Plus it's only a fourth level power.

Power Versatility
If you are unfamiliar with psionics, I will inform you of the wonders that are available to psions here. Powers can be augmented. This means that your first level powers can be as good as your higher level powers. A first level mind thrust can deal 20d10 at 20th level (if you spend 20 pp). This means that the number of powers a psion knows is not at all comparable to a wizard. A wizard's magic missile just doesn't deliver at 20th level, but a psion's mind thrust can. Bear in mind that to spend 20 pp on a given power one must have 20 Manifester Levels to do so.

Also, a psion can use his power points on any power he knows. So, like a sorcerer he is spontaneous. But it's better than a sorcerer, because his powers aren't locked by level. If he likes a psion can spend all his pp on really high level (or highly augmented) powers several times a day, or can conserve his power points and manifest at a diminished level. So his pp expendature can be matched to whatever the DM throws at you. Unlike the sorcerer a psion has no difficulty of spending all his pp in a day, and so he attains a higher efficiency of his resources. Waste not want not is the essential motto of a psion. Why end the day with a lot of 1st or 2nd level spell slots?

[b]Tactical Advantage: Teleportation

Divert Teleport + Dimensional Twister: Requires a single target make two will saves or take damage (augmentable, minimum 5d6) and be teleported to some location within sight and medium range. Consumes a standard and immediate action.
Divert Teleport + Psicrystal Share Powers: The Gingerbread Man provides the Chrono-Legionnaire with another immediate action to redirect teleportations with.
Retrieve: If I see it, it's mine. Any object that weighs 10 lbs/level within sight (even attended objects) can be teleported to my hand with a failed will save on the part of the object.
Dimension Swap + Divert Teleport: Swap your allies places and then divert the teleportation effect to anywhere within sight and medium range. Essentially you can get your friends (or yourself and a friend) anywhere on the battle field with a standard and an immediate action or two.
Teleport Trigger + Divert Teleport: Want to get a way, but not that far away? Teleport trigger is an XP-free teleport contingency that lasts hours per level & divert teleport is a very useful power that lasts 10 mins/ level. Mix the two and you can avoid one really sticky situation per encounter without having to leave the encounter entirely.
Inconstant Location + Divert Teleport: Inconstant Location, once set up (standard action to manifest) gives the Legionnaire access to a swift action teleport. The normal range of this teleport is limited to the length of his movement speed, but with the Gingerbread Man using Divert Teleport as an immediate action, this range increased to well over 100 feet. Best of all, this doesn't use up any of their standard or move actions.

Now for a little stunt. We posit that the following trick is legal and within a high possibility of success; I give you:

How to kill a CR 57 Hecatoncheires
(AKA: Night-Crawler style Uber Teleportation Spring-Attacking)

The Chrono-Legionaire has several attack options, which I will present below:

The Boss-killing attack Routine
Works well against opponents with high AC and extremely dangerous offensive capabilities. For this technique to function to its maximal effect, a large combat area is needed. All power point costs are reduced by 1 because of the Torc of Power Preservation worn.

Assume the following already active buffs:
>> Assimilate (used bag of tricks to summon a small animal and toasted it) less than an hour in advance. (lasts 1 hour) [16 pp]
>>Teleport trigger (lasts 20 hours) [12 pp]
1.
-- Swift Action Temporal Acceleration (15 pp)
>Precognition Offensive (19 pp), gain psionic focus, swift action manifest another Temporal Acceleration (19 pp)
>Divert Teleport
>>Apply oil of bless weapon, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Schism, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
>>Control Body, solicit psi-crystal, move towards charging distance (10 feet away)
--STD action: Prescience Offensive (19 pp),
--Full Attack Charge the foe: Leap Attack, Power attack all 17 BAB, Expend Focus for deep impact
--Schismed STD action: dimension door away [6 pp]
2.
--Mental Schismed STD action: Dimension Swap
--Mental Immediate action: Divert Teleport to within 10 feet of Hecatoncheires
--Ready Mental Regular STD action dimension door away (upon completion of charge or upon receiving a successful attack)
--Mental Move action: regain focus
--Mental Free Action Expend Focus (for deep impact)
--Physical Charge (power attacking, leap attacking, jumping the whole way (10 feet) with no running start).
>>Readied action triggered, d-door away.

Rinse and Repeat #2 until the foe is dead. (You have 20 rounds before schism runs out).

Why does this sequence work? With assimilate our initiative modifier goes up to +9, which is just 1 under the Heca's initiative bonus. I think it's fair to say that whomever wins is initiative is primarily determined by a die roll. If all else fails, we have a teleport trigger in place that will whisk us to safety at the first sign of danger. We'll just try again in a few rounds. After everything starts rolling we begin the TP in TP out attack sequence. We'll always be able to TP outside the Heca's charging range (which is 200 feet). Every round we have a readied dimension door prepared against his possible readied action that he might have to attack us. So, as long as we have a clear area (of 200+ feet), we'll never get touched by the beast. As you can see below, we deal enough damage (with a high enough probability of success) to take him out in under 10 rounds.

Attack bonuses:
Great Sword: +32 [17 BAB + 2 charging + 13 INT + 9* Enhancement + 7 insight -17 power attack + 1 competance] (We need to roll a 2 or better to hit him -- a one automatically fails anyways) [Since we have 5% failure rate, we assume that one fails. So we assume 9 successful attacks in 10 rounds]
*Because of outsider & mage bane the enhancement is +9, making this an effective epic weapon. Given that it is already cold-iron and bless weapon makes it good, we now bypass his DR.

Damage Calculations:
Sword: 2x[2d6 Base + 9 enhancement 17*4 Power Attack + 8 insight + 13 INT] + 4d6 (mage and outsider bane)

Total Average (assuming all hits): 224 on one attack per round. With the Heca's 50 Fast Healing, that's only 174 net damage per round. Given that the Heca has 1048 hitpoints, we can take him out in 6 successful attacks. (With one assumed failure this takes 7 rounds).

Each round (after the initial buffing round) we must spend 8 (6 for d-door + 2 for swap) power points per round. So over 7 rounds we spend 56 power points (plus the initial 108 pp counting the assimilate and divert teleport). So, all in all, we spend 164 pp (under half our total pp for the day) to kill a monster which is nearly three times our CR. Given the right environment I feel confident that we have at least a 75 to 90% chance of success the first time around, with almost a 0% chance of death.

The What Ifs:
That's a lot of buffs. What if they somehow get hosed?
Although it's expensive, we can maintain a temporal acceleration for as many rounds as we need to rebuff with temporal iteration. This increases buffing costs by 8 pp per round, but it can be done. This is really only economical for extending temporal acceleration 1 round, however. If one wants to extend the acceleration for more than one round nested accelerations become more economical (15 pp for a nested 2 round acceleration as opposed to 16 pp for two temporal iterations, 19 pp for a nested 3 round acceleration as opposed to 24 for 3 temporal iterations.) Bottom-line: the Chrono-Legionaire can re-buff at the drop of a hat.
What if the Hecatoncheires summons his buddy?
More XP for us. The Hecatoncheires is Huge, meaning there's a decent space we can move around in where he grants us full cover against his brother's attacks. We kill the first, 'port away to safety, reset the necessary buffs (the bless weapon oil, most importantly) and 'port back to restart the routine and kill Heca number 2. Failing that, just port away and come back when Heca 2's summon ends.
What if the Hecatoncheires uses his Fly spell-like ability?
Psionic Fly is on the Legionnaire's powers known list. In fact, moving to three dimensions makes the summoning ability of the hecatoncheires less useful, as now there is that much more space in which to manuver where we are covered. There's no restriction on teleporting to a point in open space.
What if both Heca's ready actions?
It remains that careful teleportation placement means only one can target us at a time.
Divert Teleport says you must have studied the area carefully.
You didn't read all of the power description. It also says that being very familiar will suffice. When one reads the teleport spell description one can readily see that merely seeing the target location qualifies us to be "very familiar."
Massive Area Effects - and by massive I mean stuff like Apocalypse from the Sky (BoVD, thankfully banned) or Eruption (Serpent Kingdoms). When we've got an area of square miles, you might be lucky enough to catch the Legionnaire by surprise.
Karmic Strike - this annoying feat can give foes reactive attacks against the Legionnaire beyond what readied defenses can provide. Still, the Legionnaire does a lot more damage in a single hit than the Karmic Strike likely will, and they still have to hit the AC of 44 (or 56 if properly buffed).
Mobs with tons of readied actions - since Synchronicity is banned, this is the only way to get enough readied actions to possibly target the Legionnaire. It may be difficult for more than a few to notice and attack the Legionnaire while he guerilla bombs them with Energy Burst, and they still have to hit that AC.
Dimensional Anchor and Dimensional Lock - these teleportation-negating spells are the Legionnaire's Achilles heel. Fortunately, you can't 'port into a D-Locked area by accident. Dimensional Anchor is more dangerous, offering no saving throw and requiring the Legionnaire to dispel his own buffs in order to remove it. The Legionnaire can supply his own dispels and pump them off in rapid order if need be. The best defense would be using the Legionnaire's Psionic Fly and a good impacting magebane charge to kill any threatening caster in one good smack.

Simply put, the reason this guy is the ultimate gish is because of his adaptability in any campaign setting. If one removes the valorous weapon (which isn't even necessary to kill the Heca, but speeds up the process greatly), then this build is non-setting specific. Furthermore, this build does not need persistant magic to be a viable gish. At twelfth level he gains the ability to make deep impact leap attacks, which means he's quite a capable in melee early on. This is a build that is themed on teleportive mobility and the Chrono-Legionnaire delivers on this promise. Not only is the Chrono-legionnaire capable of teleporting himself, but he can teleport his enemies, his enemies equipment, or his allies.

Aberrations/Magical Beasts etc: Against mind-flayers the Chrono-Legionnaire is incredible, due to his levels in Illithid Slayer. Beyond that, the chrono-legionnaire's leap attack routine and breach power resistance enables him to bypass many of the defenses which are common among Abberations & magical beasts (namely natural armor and SR). Furthermore, the Chrono-Legionnaire is immune to mind-affecting effects (while focused), which renders him invulnerable to many of the more insidious offensive capabilities of Abberations. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here.

Constructs: The difficulty of constructs is their immunity to most magical forms of attack and their high physical prowess. Enter leap attack & deep impact once again. Due to the typically low touch AC of constructs, our intrepid hero can make quick mince-meat of his automaton foes.

Dragons: Dragon claim a high mobility and great physical prowess. They lack good touch AC, however, which makes them vulnerable to the Chrono-Legionnaire's deep impact trick. The chrono-legionnaire claims a higher mobility than even the fastest dragons, enabling him to keep outside of their range. Make no mistake, dragons are potent foes. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here. The Legionnaire has flight as well, in case the dragon tries to go aerial, and breach power resistance to finish things if necessary.

Elementals/Outsiders: Elementals are not a real problem, but outsiders are reknown for their deadly SLAs, energy resistances, and physical prowess. Here celestial conduit is a nice power, as it offers D6 per pp damage and the damage type is "positive energy." Deep impact + leap attack is still effective against most of these foes, as is evidenced by the Chrono-Legionnaire's ability to take out the grand-daddy of all outsiders: the Hecatoncheires. The magebane & evil outsider bane weapon enhancements are quite helpful here.

Undead: The Chrono-Legionnaire does not rely on critical hits or necromantic effects, so undead have little defense against the majority of the Chrono-Legionnaire's tactics. Furthermore celestial conduit deals 1d6+2 damage per pp against undead, making it an attractive means to their destruction. The magebane weapon enhancement is quite helpful here.

Traps: If a trap is suspected, the chrono-legionnaire typically teleports past it. This is admittedly a weak point in this build. However, readied dimensions swaps and immediate action diverts mean that the Gingerbread Man can scout ahead yet be immediately pulled back to safety in case of emergency

Political Intrigue & Diplomatic Maneuvers: Despite his mediocre charisma, the Chrono-Legionnaire has maxed out his ranks in diplomacy and can deal with moderately sticky diplomatic situations. He also has the Detect Hostile Intent power on his list, which helps ... well... detect hostiles. This can be ever so invaluable for quick diplomatic decision making. He's no diplomancer & knows when to make way for the party bard. That said, he can escape awkward situations incredibly fast.

A BBEG/ Mastermind/ Warlord: I believe the anti-Heca trick shown above is an adequate display of the Chrono-Legionnaire's prowess against single opponents.

Mobs: Energy burst offers a 40' radius burst centered on the manifester and deals d6 energy damage of any type of energy (specified upon manifestation) against any foes in that area. Can't ask for much better area damage than that. The saving throw can be made to be a fort or ref save, and can be enhanced by chaotic surge (described above in class abilities of note).

Overwhelming Odds: No one can get out of dodge like the Chrono-Legionnaire. An XP-free contingent teleport (teleport trigger) is key here. Dimension door and divert teleport are also good means of getting out fast. Anticipatory Strike also means an immediate action "I take next round's turn NOW" when he really needs to leave.

Meeting Constraints:
The Optimization Constraints:
Melee Damage or Non-Magical Ranged Damage Capability:

The leap attack + deep impact routine is a good way to meet this constraint. With 17 BAB, the chrono-legionnaire is quite capable in normal comabat as well.
Defensive Capability: Immunity to mind-affecting effects is nice, his AC is over 40 without applying any buffs and can go into the high 50s with buffs.
Magical Offensive Capability: 9th level powers, 360 pp. He's not as good as a straight psion, but he's pretty darn good.
Tactical Advantage: Telekentic maneuvers (via the power), diverted dimensional twisters, and retrieve make this guy quite capable of befuddling and disabling his foes at a range. Nothing says ownage quite like being damaged and teleported over 300' feet in the same round.
Party Benefit: Psionics is not reknown for buffing others, but dimension swap and some of the tactical maneuvers above make the Chrono-Legionnaire a good guy to have around in combat. He's also able to serve as the party tracker with maxed out ranks in survival and the track feat. In a party with the Legionnaire, a party member is wherever he needs to be when he needs to be. Forcecage the fighter? No problem, he's out on the Legionnaire's turn without skipping a beat. The casters in the party will love how the Legionnaire reduces the PR of enemies too.
High Initiative: 2 + dex. Not astounding, but not bad.
Skillz: 186 skills is pretty decent. He's able to cover all the necessary bases and have some left over for things like maxed out tracking and diplomacy.
Endurance: Not the strongest ability our character has, but I feel confident that he can handle 3-4 encounters per day and still kick butt -- provided these encounters aren't CR 57 Hecas...
Playable: The only combat weak area is the first six levels, however, during this time he is a quite functional psion. 12th level and beyond is where this build really excels.
Minimal Buffs: AMF is not good for this guy as he can't use deep impact in an AMF, but he's still got 17 BAB and decent physical stats. He wouldn't fight a barbarian in an AMF if he could help it.

Additional Restrictions:
Powerful Magic: Able to manifest 9th level powers.
High Base Attack: 17 BAB by 20th level.
No ASF: Powers are not subject to ASF.
High Armor Class: Without buffs he has 44 AC, which meets the greater than or equal to 40 constraint.
High Damage: He can deal over 200 damage reliably against anything with a touch AC below 34 for at least 40 rounds per day while also teleporting in and out each round (with a TP range of 300+ feet).
No Form Altering: Just say no. He doesn't even have access to such abilities.

Conclusion:
Psi-Gish are fairly limited in their abilities when compared to Arcane-based gish, but I hope this entry has demonstrated some of the unique capabilities that are available to psionics. First and foremost is the incredibly powerful and versatile control body + schism + solicit psi-crystal trick, which is employed here. Nothing is better than taking a full round attack, 2 standard actions, and a mental move-action every round when the going gets tough.

Books Used:
XPH: Slayer, Nomad, & most powers & feats
PHB
DMG: Most magic items
MiniHB: Belt of Magnificence
UE: Valorous weapon enhancement
CPsi: Anarchic Initiate, various powers

Voyager_I

2012-04-19, 07:09 AM

A one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric (UA Variant available on the SRD) can get you Travel Devotion for free, along with some extra turning attempts to spend on it.

The only caveat is that Travel Devotion isn't technically teleportation (it simply lets you move your speed as a Swift Action), so it might not fit your design.

Telonius

2012-04-19, 07:39 AM

Anklet of Translocation (Magic Item Compendium) could help with the concept. Only 700gp, swift teleport 10 feet, two times per day.

Bloodgruve

2012-04-19, 08:01 AM

Your earliest answer is in Psionics.

Dimension Hop - swift action teleport 10' for cheap, +5' per 1PP, 1PP base cost. In Complete Psionic

This is available through the Freedom mantle or Hidden Talent. You can get this mantle by rolling an Ardent or Psychic Warrior with Mantled Warrior ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a). If you're not familiar with mantles they are the psychic version of Domains.

Ardent has 2 ACF's that are awesome, Substitute Power and Dominant Ideal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). Sub Power lets you input powers into an appropriate mantle and Dominant Ideal lets you take Linked Power feat and abuse it (Hustle>Dimension Hop each turn for cheap, hop + extra move action for 1PP.)

I ran an Ardent with Freedom and Natural World mantles. I substituted Claws of the Beast into Natural World. Basically Nightcrawler merged with Wolverine ;) Dimension hop close to your enemy and get a full attack with all your natural weapons, rinse repeat. Psychic Warrior can build this also with a good power list and lots of feats, lower daily PP though.

Fun build,

GL
Blood~

hymer

2012-04-19, 08:18 AM

Not sure how helpful this is, but thought I ought to mention it: 6 levels of warlock can give you Escape the Scene (among several other ineresting things you pick up on your way). Couple with Quicken SLA for additional fun.

Person_Man

2012-04-19, 09:06 AM

Totemist 2 with the Blink Shirt soulmeld bound to their Totem chakra can Dimension Door at will as a Move Action. Seems like it would fit fairly well into your concept somewhere.

McToomin

2012-04-19, 09:29 AM

Thanks a lot everyone! This is all really helpful. It seems like psionics are definitely the way to go, and I already got approval from the DM. I've never done psionics before, but the info here is really helpful. If anyone has anything else to add though, I'd love to hear it. Since I want this to be my main focus, a 2-level dip in Totemist for base speed at-will and the anklet of translocation are really good to know about. Warlock is good too, but 6 levels is a bit more than I was hoping for.

For the Totemist dip, would I need any feats or anything, or is it just base speed teleport as your move action? I am away from books at the moment. Also not sure if incarnum is allowed, still just collecting ideas at this point.

Answerer

2012-04-19, 09:33 AM

I've never done psionics before, but the info here is really helpful.
Thou shalt not spend more power points than your manifester level on any single power.

Seriously, #1 most important thing to know about Psionics is that you cannot (in almost all cases) spend more Power Points on any one power than your Manifester Level. Overchannel or Wild Surge can overcome this in limited ways, at a cost.

nyarlathotep

2012-04-19, 09:58 AM

If you're willing to backport pathfinder stuff where is a series of feats that allow you to attack and even full attack after teleporting with dimension door. You can then get dimension door as a SLA through horizon walker.

JadePhoenix

2012-04-19, 10:08 AM

To really be Nightcrawler-esque, you're going to need some way to full-attack when you teleport.
Most of the ways I know were already mentioned: Telflammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East), Blade of Orien (Dragonmarked) and the Dimensional Dervish line (Ultimate Magic).
This homebrew prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157273) is the only other way I know of to do this.

McToomin

2012-04-19, 10:21 AM

Krotchrot

2012-04-19, 10:35 AM

I like the Totemist, currently playing one, may not be as totally game breaking as a psion can but I can certainly chrun out more attacks than any standard fighter.

ericgrau

2012-04-19, 10:37 AM

I've had a friend do this. Anklet of translocation melee scout. So there's an extra reason for the teleport too.

Person_Man

2012-04-19, 10:38 AM

For the Totemist dip, would I need any feats or anything, or is it just base speed teleport as your move action? I am away from books at the moment. Also not sure if incarnum is allowed, still just collecting ideas at this point.

The range of the Dimension Door granted by Blink Shirt is 10 ft + 10 ft per point of essentia invested in the soulmeld. Soulmelds have an essentia capacity of 1-4 based on your hit dice. 2 Totemist levels gives you +1 to the capacity of the soulmeld bound to your Totem chakra, plus 2 points of essentia, and you can easily get another point or two by playing an Incarnum race or taking an Incarnum Feat (almost all of which grant an extra point as a side benefit). So your Dimension Door will generally have a range of 30-50 ft.

But note that without the rare Shadow Pounce ability, you cannot take any actions until your next turn after using Dimension Door. So if you're not going to get it, you'll want to find good Standard Actions. Since Tome of Battle is out, that means more Totemist, or spellcasting, psionics, Binder, or Dragonfire Adept, etc. Not melee.

Eldariel

2012-04-19, 10:45 AM

But note that without the rare Shadow Pounce ability, you cannot take any actions until your next turn after using Dimension Door. So if you're not going to get it, you'll want to find good Standard Actions. Since Tome of Battle is out, that means more Totemist, or spellcasting, psionics, Binder, or Dragonfire Adept, etc. Not melee.

Or good fun with Psionics for swift action diverted teleports instead which have no such clause (with actions leftover to blink again).

McToomin

2012-04-19, 10:55 AM

Rejusu

2012-04-19, 11:21 AM

If the Totemist grants Dimension Door which blocks all actions afterward without investing more feats/levels/etc., then I'll probably skip it. The appeal of that was that it was a dip, but if I have to invest more, it sounds like straight psionics can get the job done no problem.

More questions in addition to race suggestions: I was looking at the chrono-legionnaire that was posted, and noticed that it has levels in "nomad" and "slayer". Are these official classes anywhere? If so, where can I find them? If not, what should I substitute for those levels?

If you're going Psychic warrior I'd definitely skip totemist. You can get psionic dimension door later on and if you're starting out at level 3 then you can start the game with the dimension hop power. Which is a swift action (meaning you can still attack after using it) short range blink for a very cheap PP cost.

Later on you also get psionic dimension door (as I mentioned before), psionic fly, and psionic teleport all from the freedom mantle (though PsyWarr gets dimension door as standard anyway).

Nomad and Slayer are official classes and can both be found on the SRD. Nomad isn't it's own class though, it's just one of the flavours of Psion. Unlike wizards Psions are forced to specialize and get a different name depending on the discipline they focus in. Nomad is a Psion specialised in Psychoportation, essentially movement powers.

Slayer is a full BAB PrC that advances your manifesting and gives you a personal mind blank as it's capstone. The rest of it's features though are geared towards fighting aberrations (generally mind flayers) so they're kind of situational.

As always I recommend you check out the Psychic Warrior handbook:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162701

P.S. Out of curiosity why is Tome of Battle banned? Is your DM one of those DM's that believes it's overpowered and yet still allows the PHB in their games?

McToomin

2012-04-19, 11:35 AM

P.S. Out of curiosity why is Tome of Battle banned? Is your DM one of those DM's that believes it's overpowered and yet still allows the PHB in their games?

Yes.

Also, does Psion (Nomad) appear in a book, or only online? I'm not exactly sure what the SRD entails.

And the game is going to focus a lot on gods, like actually meeting gods and stuff, so I'm not sure if abberations will come in handy (sounds like they won't). Are there any other full BAB - full manifesting prestige classes I should look at?

eggs

2012-04-19, 11:54 AM

Psion is in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (the basic Psionics book - note that it's not the Psionics Handbook; that's the abysmal 3.0 version, which everyone would be better off forgetting).

There's only one full manifesting PrC, and it's not full BA - WotC did a much better job keeping psionic prestige classes balanced with their base classes than they did with casters.

But the Adaptation section of the Abjurant Champion does recommend a psionic equivalent homebrew.

Edit:
There are a couple other full BA/partial manifesting classes, but they also mostly focus on hunting Aberrations.
Psychic Warrior levels are usually better than prestige classing anyway.

Bloodgruve

2012-04-19, 11:55 AM

In response to the last few posts, it seems like if I get someof the stuff from that chrono-legionnaire build (even if I don't take everything), I should still be able to do pretty well for myself. We're starting at lvl 3, so I think I'll start off Totemist 2 for the at-will (just got the go-ahead), and then start going psionics, probably taking some build advice from the legionnaire (but not following it directly or anything).

So does anyone have any race suggestions? What stat do psionicists use? I know human/strongheart halfling get a free feat, but are anyraces suited for what I want to do, given what I outlined above (Totemist 2/psionic classes 18)?

I'd suggest Totemist 2/Ardent 18

Strength>Wisdom>Con are needed. Dex is helpful for AC.

Totemist with Garillon Claws, Chaos Roc Span and Dragons Tail for 7 natural attacks and only 1 chakra bind needed.

Ardent with Freedom and Natural World mantles for the swift teleport and augmentable Claws of the Beast if you want more damage and melee buffs. Go into the Slayer PrC to improve BAB when you can.

Blood~

skycycle blues

2012-04-19, 11:57 AM

Yes.

Also, does Psion (Nomad) appear in a book, or only online? I'm not exactly sure what the SRD entails.

And the game is going to focus a lot on gods, like actually meeting gods and stuff, so I'm not sure if abberations will come in handy (sounds like they won't). Are there any other full BAB - full manifesting prestige classes I should look at?

As far as I am aware, that is the only thing close to a full manifesting full BAB class and it's 9/10 manifesting. There are a few that are also close in Lords of Madness: Sanctified Mind, a six level full BAB class that is 5/6 manifesting(or divine casting) and Topaz Guardian, a five level 3/5 manifesting. Both are fairly fluffy about being dedicated to wipe out evil psionic things, especially Mind Flayers.

If there is a full BAB full manifesting PrC, it would be in third party stuff or homebrew.

Draz74

2012-04-19, 11:58 AM

The Sun School feat is another way to get (limited) attacking ability after using a Dimension Door effect like the Blink Shirt. It might require a Monk dip, though.

Yes.
Pity.

Also, does Psion (Nomad) appear in a book, or only online? I'm not exactly sure what the SRD entails.
Expanded Psionics Handbook.

And the game is going to focus a lot on gods, like actually meeting gods and stuff, so I'm not sure if abberations will come in handy (sounds like they won't). Are there any other full BAB - full manifesting prestige classes I should look at?
The only other full-BAB, almost-full-manifesting PrC is the Sanctified Mind from Lords of Madness, which is also somewhat aberration-focused.

Don't worry too much about the Favored Enemy thing, though; it's not the reason for taking Slayer. Slayer can be worth it just because of the BAB, manifesting, class skills, and the Level 9 Mind Blank ability.

McToomin

2012-04-19, 12:01 PM

What's the advantage of going Psychic Warrior over Ardent? I'm looking at them now and Ardent seems to be superior, at least for what I'm trying to focus on.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-04-19, 12:04 PM

Yes.

Also, does Psion (Nomad) appear in a book, or only online? I'm not exactly sure what the SRD entails.

And the game is going to focus a lot on gods, like actually meeting gods and stuff, so I'm not sure if abberations will come in handy (sounds like they won't). Are there any other full BAB - full manifesting prestige classes I should look at?

A Psion (Nomad) is just a psion who chose Psychotransportation as his discipline and Slayer is the SRD version of the Illithid Slayer prestige class from the expanded psionics handbook. It has easier pre-requsites (you don't have to kill an Illithid), the reason for the change is that Illithid are not OGL and therefore the SRD can't host information about it.

Apart from Slayer, only sanctified mind and the adaptation of Abjurant champion have full BAB and close to full manifesting advancement, though there is the Ghostbreaker prestige class from Hyperconcious (3rd party sourcebook, thought it was authored by Bruce Cordell who was the lead designer in the XPH) which has full BAB and 5/5 manifesting, pretty easy pre-requisites too.

eggs

2012-04-19, 12:07 PM

Psychic Warrior is basically just for the bonus feats. Ardents tend to be feat-starved, but they're usually stronger and less PP-hungry.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-04-19, 12:15 PM

Though there are ways to get bonus PP and "effective" bonus PP

Bonus PP from the top of my head:
Race (Kalshtar are the winners here with a 1 PP/level, other races tend to get 1 or 2 at the most)
Items: Manifesting weapon, easy extra 5 PP, enchant something like arrows or shurikens to be extra cheesy)
Wild talent: Apart from giving an extra power known from any list (yes, even specialists lists) you get extra 2 points to manifest, though you do need cha 11 at the least)
Wondrous location: The Earth Node (CPsi) gives you extra 5 power points for about 3000 GP per gear, not bad IMO.

Effective PP
Torc of Power preservation (XPH version is much better) reduces all powers costs by 1 (minimum 1), allowing you to either augment powers or conserve power points (and many Psyway powers tend to be long duration buffs, so it is better to just reduce the costs)
Psionic items such as the Psychoactive skins (the skin of the proteus is amazing as it gives you at will ML 7 Metamorphosis)

Bloodgruve

2012-04-19, 01:57 PM

What's the advantage of going Psychic Warrior over Ardent? I'm looking at them now and Ardent seems to be superior, at least for what I'm trying to focus on.

As eggs stated its power points vs feats. Get familiar with the Ardent Mantles and Substitute Power ACF, if you do it right you can build a good power list. Psychic Warrior has a very good power list to start if you want to concentrate on melee but less PP early on, this can be mitigated by taking a psionic race like Kalashtar or similar.

If you run Ardent you can also take the Dominant Ideal and at Ardent 10 you can gain a swift Dimension Hop and an extra move action through Hustle using Linked Power feat, ultimately ending up with port+move+full actions per round.

Ask your DM about Flaws (Unearthed Arcana) too, usually my group allows 2 Flaws which nets you 2 extra Feats at 1st level, this is very helpful with Ardent. Flaws can help bring some character to your character also. Here's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Flaws) has a bunch of fun homebrew flaws.

GL
Blood~

eggs

2012-04-19, 02:04 PM

Psychic Meditation (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827b) is the big one (Temporary PP=ML per fight), but it eats half the Psychic Warrior's bonus feats just to break even with the Ardent's PP.

JadePhoenix

2012-04-19, 02:15 PM

Here's (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Flaws) has a bunch of fun homebrew flaws.

The horror... the horror...
Why people still link to D&D wiki?!

McToomin

2012-04-19, 02:51 PM

If you run Ardent you can also take the Dominant Ideal and at Ardent 10 you can gain a swift Dimension Hop and an extra move action through Hustle using Linked Power feat, ultimately ending up with port+move+full actions per round.

Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but can't I do this from level 1 (minus the extra move action) with a Freedom mantle Ardent? Sure at first it's only 10 ft. (+5 ft./pp), but it seems like that gives me just what I was looking for.

Don't think I'm being sarcastic or anything, I really want to make sure I understand everything correctly. It seems like I can do short-range at least from level 1 as a Freedom Ardent as a swift action, allowing a move and attack afterward, or a full attack.

Also, manifester level seems to work like caster level ie. that any class that grants psionics increases my manifester level (as opposed to initiatior level, which is different for each initiator class). Is this correct? If so, is there anything stopping me from taking 1 level of Ardent, and then going Psychic Warrior for the feats (some of which I can seemingly spend to gain extra pp)?

Icewraith

2012-04-19, 02:56 PM

If you can find a way to get it as a swift, consider Lightning Leap.

eggs

2012-04-19, 03:01 PM

Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but can't I do this from level 1 (minus the extra move action) with a Freedom mantle Ardent? Sure at first it's only 10 ft. (+5 ft./pp), but it seems like that gives me just what I was looking for.
That's right. Without Complete Psionic, Hustle+Dimension Slide is the default way of teleporting as a Swift action, but with Complete Psionic, Dimension Hop does it on its own.

Also, manifester level seems to work like caster level
Right, basically.

ie. that any class that grants psionics increases my manifester level (as opposed to initiatior level, which is different for each initiator class).
That's not right.

Manifesting class levels stack in terms of feeding one big universal PP pool, but they don't stack for Manifester level itself. So a Psychic Warrior 1/Ardent 5 could manifest Dimension Hop from its Ardent side as a level 5 manifester, spending up to 5 PP, but could only manifest Expansion from its Psychic Warrior side as a level 1 manifester, spending up to 1 PP.

This gets a little weird when you bring in Practiced Manifester, but you basically track the different classes separately.

EDIT:
And caster levels don't work that way either, unless you're using Trailblazer. If you are, psionics will take some homebrew, but should probably mirror the various class-based caster levels.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-04-19, 03:03 PM

Maybe I'm reading something wrong, but can't I do this from level 1 (minus the extra move action) with a Freedom mantle Ardent? Sure at first it's only 10 ft. (+5 ft./pp), but it seems like that gives me just what I was looking for.

Don't think I'm being sarcastic or anything, I really want to make sure I understand everything correctly. It seems like I can do short-range at least from level 1 as a Freedom Ardent as a swift action, allowing a move and attack afterward, or a full attack.

Also, manifester level seems to work like caster level ie. that any class that grants psionics increases my manifester level (as opposed to initiatior level, which is different for each initiator class). Is this correct? If so, is there anything stopping me from taking 1 level of Ardent, and then going Psychic Warrior for the feats (some of which I can seemingly spend to gain extra pp)?

At low levels you don't need to teleport as you can normally only make one attack per round so your move + standard actions are more than enough.

And no, if you take Ardent 1/ PsyWar 2 you would have ML 1 for ardent and ML 2 for Psywar they don't stack, on the other hand Power point pools are counted together so the same character would have the Ardents PP + Psywar 2 PP, does that make sense?

Bloodgruve

2012-04-19, 03:21 PM

If you take Totemist2 and gain a bunch of natural attacks then Dimension Hop can come in quite handy early on.

The horror... the horror...
Why people still link to D&D wiki?!

Well, for the simple fact that there are a limited number of Flaws and that list has some options. Some of the flaws are balanced and can be fun to work with.

As for the rest of the site, I haven't found much use for it.

Blood~

Randomguy

2012-04-19, 03:48 PM

What about the Horizon Walker? It can select Shifting as its first Planar Terrain, which grants it Dimension Door as a SLA, usable once every 1d4 rounds.

This, and if you also take a level of monk (or a level of the Mystic third party class, which also grants flurry of blows) you eventually qualify for the Sun School feat, which lets you attack once after using dimension door. It also gets you a few smaller bonuses, but none will be that useful to you.

McToomin

2012-04-19, 04:07 PM

The horror... the horror...
Why people still link to D&D wiki?!

I dunno, I kind of like Chronological Dyslexia (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Chronological_Dyslexia_(3.5e_Flaw)):

"Regnoir: "Those spiced crab legs were good last night." // Party: "We had those a month ago."

Manifesting class levels stack in terms of feeding one big universal PP pool, but they don't stack for Manifester level itself. So a Psychic Warrior 1/Ardent 5 could manifest Dimension Hop from its Ardent side as a level 5 manifester, spending up to 5 PP, but could only manifest Expansion from its Psychic Warrior side as a level 1 manifester, spending up to 1 PP.

This gets a little weird when you bring in Practiced Manifester, but you basically track the different classes separately.

So it is more like initiator level. Bummer.

This is a small aside, but doesn't caster level work like that? As in, if I'm a Sorcerer 10/Wizard 10 (not sure why you would ever do that, but regardless), wouldn't my caster level be 20? This situation hasn't actually arisen in any games I've played, that was just my understanding.

At low levels you don't need to teleport as you can normally only make one attack per round so your move + standard actions are more than enough.

Yeah I know it's kind of superfluous at lower levels. I just want to do it because it's cool. :P

*EDIT* I could also use Expanded Knowledge to gain any especially cool/relevant powers (such as Expansion, which seems awesome) even if Ardent doesn't normally get them.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-04-19, 04:17 PM

No your CL and ML is exlcusive to the class, in your example a Wizard 10/Sorcerer 10 would have CL 10 for Wizard and CL 10 for sorcerer.

Draz74

2012-04-19, 05:25 PM

*EDIT* I could also use Expanded Knowledge to gain any especially cool/relevant powers (such as Expansion, which seems awesome) even if Ardent doesn't normally get them.

Yep. Note that any psionic class can use the Hidden Talent feat to get access to Dimension Hop from Level 1. (I'm not trying to talk you out of Ardent, because it does seem like a good match for your concept ... but if you went with a PsyWar or Psion instead, you could still get your Hop on.)

Rejusu

2012-04-19, 05:33 PM

Yep. Note that any psionic class can use the Hidden Talent feat to get access to Dimension Hop from Level 1. (I'm not trying to talk you out of Ardent, because it does seem like a good match for your concept ... but if you went with a PsyWar or Psion instead, you could still get your Hop on.)

Thing is you can just get it at level 2 with mantled warrior. Doesn't make much of a difference really. Especially if you're not starting at level 1.

Dusk Eclipse

2012-04-19, 06:10 PM

Though an extra power and 2 PP never hurt any psionic class, so even a mantled warrior can benefit from it. For example a Psy war with the Freedom mantle might also want Astral Construct for the utility it provides.

Particle_Man

2012-04-19, 07:31 PM

In the DMG there are intelligent magic items. An intelligent item (say, a sword) can have as a special purpose power "dimension door" (itself and wielder only). The catch is that the item will use it to fulfill its special purpose, not just because the fighter wants the item to "do its thing".

McToomin

2012-04-19, 09:48 PM

Bloodgruve

2012-04-19, 09:49 PM

*EDIT* I could also use Expanded Knowledge to gain any especially cool/relevant powers (such as Expansion, which seems awesome) even if Ardent doesn't normally get them.

Nice thing about the Ardents Substitue Power ACF is that you can put a power into a mantle that you take if it fits the flavor. Not sure where Expansion would fit off the top of my head though.

Nice thing about Psi Warrior is that the bonus feats give you any fighter bonus feats -or- psionic feats. Expanded Knowledge can be taken as a bonus feat.

It really comes down to do you want to be Melee>Caster or Caster>Melee? I personally enjoy the freedom of a nice big power point pool.

Blood~

deuxhero

2012-04-19, 10:56 PM

This, and if you also take a level of monk (or a level of the Mystic third party class, which also grants flurry of blows) you eventually qualify for the Sun School feat, which lets you attack once after using dimension door. It also gets you a few smaller bonuses, but none will be that useful to you.

Taking Horizon Tripper build and sub Passive Way Monk 2 for the Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 could work.

Rejusu

2012-04-20, 07:58 AM

So I guess the question now is: psychic warrior or ardent? Psychic warrior gets a lot more feats, and I can see plenty of feats that look good, but ardent gets more pp. I'd rather not do both since then I'd have to keeP track of separate manifester levels, powers known, and so on. I'd rather just stick to one or the other, as far as psionic classes go, and possibly augment it with dips into other classes if necessary.

But given my character concept, which one would work better, psywar or ardent?

I prefer Psychic Warrior but both are rather viable. I think the best thing to do is take a look at what else you get from them besides teleporting. Seeing as both Ardent and Psy War have that angle covered pretty solidly let's look at the differences. The main one is that Psychic Warrior has slower power level progression and caps out at 6th level powers, where as Ardent can get 9th level powers. Ardents also get more PP to back this up. They also have one more power known than Psychic Warrior, but that's fairly minor. Especially since the Psy War can get just spend a bonus feat on Expanded Knowledge or Hidden talent.

What doesn't often come up when discussing Ardent (but probably should be) is that Ardents are more limited in their power selection than a Psychic Warrior is. A PsyWarr just picks his powers off the list. An ardent though can only select from their mantles. And a thing worth noting about mantles is that although they're effectively the psionic version of domains the two are not equivalent.

Most prominently mantles don't have a power for each level. For example the Freedom mantle has powers of 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th level. But no 9th, 7th or 3rd level powers. Mantles are also not created equal. Some have 6 powers, one even has 11 (despite the fact mantles aren't supposed to have more than 10). While stuff like this can be remedied with the substitute powers ACF most people bring this up as if it's guaranteed to be approved by the DM.

Most problematic however is the "primary" mantles rule.

An ardent must maintain at least as many powers in her primary mantles as she takes in her secondary mantles, reflecting that personal allegiance. An ardent cannot choose a power from a secondary mantle if doing so would give her more powers known from that secondary mantle than she knows from either of her primary mantles.

Most people neglect to mention this rule. In terms of picking your powers Psychic Warrior is a lot more straightforward and no nonsense. Best of all it can gain access to the Ardent's mantles without having to abide by the restrictive power selection rules. You're also guaranteed to have a good selection of powers at each level where as Ardents selection can fluctuate wildly depending on your chosen mantles. A psychic warrior also has an easier time getting additional mantles than the Ardent as it has bonus feats to spend on taking Tap Mantle.

Take a look at what mantles you might select other than the freedom mantle (since you'll have this no matter which class you take) and then compare the powers you'd have available from those to what would be available from the Psychic warrior list. You'd have 3 mantles at level 3 (without taking a feat to get another) and you then get another one at 5, 10 and 15.

In terms of combat ability both have 3/4 BAB so it's a tie there, the Ardent has a lower hit die (d6 compared to the PsyWarrs d8) and both only have one good save (fort for PsyWarr, will for ardent). Of course though the Psychic Warrior has bonus feats (any psionic feat or fighter bonus feat) which will put him ahead in terms of martial ability. The Psychic Warrior also gets easy access to great combat powers like expansion, with the added bonus of being able to grab big expansions to it's power list at the cost of a feat.

Sure the Ardent can get powers from the Psychic Warrior list using expanded knowledge, but:
A) It doesn't get bonus feats so doing so too much will leave you feat starved.
B) Expanded Knowledge nets you ONE power. You automatically learn it sure. But for the same feat cost the Psychic can expend their already good power list with another 6-10 powers. It's much more cost efficient if you want multiple powers from a mantle (like dimension hop and fly from the freedom mantle).

Unless you think you really want high level manifesting ability I think Psychic Warrior fits your concept better. Plus Ardent only has simple weapon proficiency. I know you're taking EWP for those sleeve blades, but it's still nice to have the option of switching to a martial weapon later on.

RFLS

2012-04-20, 10:00 AM

You could just take the Shadowdancer prestige class right out of DMG. That gives short range blink abilities, and in a battlefield, there are shadows everywhere.

McToomin

2012-04-20, 10:02 AM

Rejusu

2012-04-20, 11:06 AM

Yeah I think Psychic Warrior is going to be the better fit, and then I can just grab Dimension Hop to add it to my list, since it covers everything I wanted to do with a single (low-cost, at that) power. I'll probably go human to grab my EWP for free (my first human character!).

Thanks for the help everyone! I'll probably look into getting more pp somehow and I found a psionic focus optimization guide that I'll take a look at, but at least now I have a class picked out for what I wanted to do.

Uh you can't take EWP at one. Prerequisite is BAB +1 and Psychic warrior is a 3/4 BAB class. However you said you're starting at level 3 right? You could just make it your 3rd level feat instead. I'd consider taking a psionic race as well instead of human. I mean there's nothing wrong with human, it's a viable choice for nearly any build, but you might want to consider grabbing some bonus PP instead of the bonus feat. After all you've got bonus feats as is so you won't be feat starved. Plus the rest of what human offers doesn't really add anything:
- Favoured class: Any? You're probably either going to be taking pure PsyWarr or prestigeing out so this isn't really relevant.
- Bonus skill points? PsyWarrs don't really have a great skill selection, you'll mainly just want to put points into Concentration and Autohypnosis, so these don't make much of a difference.

Most of the psionic races will give you bonus power points though and some cool Psi-like abilities. Kalashtar is particularly nice as they get 1 bonus PP every level.

chaotician375

2012-04-20, 11:15 AM

Depending on how many levels your willing to spend 6 lvls of warlock for the flee the scene invocation, its dimension door and minor image at-will. or maybe the battle sorcerer from UA and only take teleport spells.

McToomin

2012-04-20, 12:54 PM

Aren't kalashtar from eberron? Unfortunately no campaign-specific. Most other psionic races I've found give more than 3 pp. I suppose at lower levels (especually for psywar) that relevant, but does it still hold up at later levels like a feat might (depending on the feat, obviously).

And actually, I think I'm just going to go with a big two-handed weapon and get Power Attack and the like.

*EDIT* Also, I know that chrono-legionnaire can pop in, attack, and then pop out again so he's not standing next to his target by the end of the round, but I don't really understand the explanation. How is this accomplished, and is it possible going straight psywar?

Dusk Eclipse

2012-04-20, 02:09 PM

Yep Kalashtar are from Eberron sadly.

I don't remember the exact way; but I think it involved different action teleports (swift, standard and possibly immediate actions) and the power divert teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/divertTeleport.htm) to do a teleport by attack routine.

Zonugal

2012-04-20, 02:31 PM

If you want a simplistic build I really think something like a Azurin Monk 2/Totemist 4 could work out okay. Take the Sun School feat at 6th level and maybe throw in Improved Trip & Knock-Down for some nice options in combat.

The highlight of a build like this is bamfing in, hitting your foe as hard as possible to initiate a trip and than with them being prone you have enough time next round to bamf back out.

Unusual Muse

2012-04-20, 02:42 PM

Dip into Focused Specialist (CM) Wizard as a Conjurer, drop the familiar for Abrupt Jaunt (PH2): Immediate action 10' teleport without error, INT mod x/day. Plus this will net you some other useful things like Nerveskitter, Benign Transposition, Buzzing Bee, Shield, etc.

McToomin

2012-04-20, 03:11 PM

Hmm after looking over some stuff, it looks like I can do it starting at level 6:

Swift action: Dimension Hop to enemy
Full attack: kill kill kill
Quickened Dimension Hop away

Here's the relevant text for Quicken (copied since it's on the SRD so I can do that right? Let me know if it's not allowed and I'll remove it):

Quicken Power

To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can quicken a power. You can perform another action, even manifest another power, in the same round that you manifest a quickened power. You can manifest only one quickened power per round. A power whose manifesting time is longer than 1 round cannot be quickened.

Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 6. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level.

Manifesting a quickened power does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

~~~

Nowhere does it say that the quickened power becomes a swift action (something that you specifically only get 1 of per round), nor does it say how it interacts with powers that are already swift actions (like Dimension Hop). It simply says you can manifest no more than 1 quickened power per turn. The table on Metapsionic feats in the book even says it's a free action.

*Note- Yes, I realize this'd eat up pp like crazy. Just making sure it's possible.

Slipperychicken

2012-04-20, 11:23 PM

[skipped over most of thread, might regret it later]

Shadow Cloak from Drow of the Underdark. Basically gives you Abjurant Jaunt (immediate action 10ft teleport) 3/day for 5500gp. Slotless version is 11,000gp. If you're a Warforged, make it a warforged component for the same cost, and it's for most intents and purposes a part of you.

Bloodgruve

2012-04-21, 01:35 AM

Table 3-4 in Expanded Psionics Handbook states that Quicken Power allows you to manifest powers as a free action. It is not stated as a free action in the description which is odd but I would go with the table text.

That being said you could Dimension Hop in, kill kill kill and Quick Hop out in a round. This would cost 1PP+7PP which is a hefty cost for a Psi War. At lvl 7 you would have a max of 32PP if you had 18 Wis and a psionic race. You're spending a quarter of your points on 1 round. If this is the tactic you want to use I would suggest Ardent for more PP. This only allows for a 10' hop and is usable at lvl 7.

Having the ability to swift Hop is great and free Hop would be awesome but I'd use it to get to your next target instead of 'Spring Attack', concentrating on full attacks and saving some PP for other stuff.

GL
Blood~

Eldariel

2012-04-21, 06:03 AM

Rejusu

2012-04-21, 09:27 AM

Quicken makes X a swift action and has no effect on anything that is already one. This was errata'd in Complete Arcane since Swift Actions didn't exist at the time of publishing of XPH. You can look at Quicken Spell; it has the same wording but it received a new one with CArc.

Linked Power [Complete Psionics] would work tho; cast Linked Hustle with Dimension Hop, use Hustle to regain Psionic Focus and next round Dimension Hop goes off, you can full attack and then Dimension Hop away. Since Linked Hustle only costs a swift action, you can full attack during that round too. Best of all, Linked Hustle > Dimension Hop is actually doable level 6 while Quicken Power would require Overchannel for you to be able to invest 9 PP into the power on level 6 (remember the first rule of Psionics: "You may not use more power points on a single manifesting of a power than your manifester level").

No Quicken only increases the PP cost by 6. Which still means it can't be done at level 6, but it can be done at 7 as opposed to level 9. But yeah Linked power is probably a better way of doing it, especially since it can be done at level 4 (with the right feats) minimum and only costs 5PP total (two 1pp hops and the 3pp hustle).

Linked Power is far better than quicken power in a lot of ways. It delays the manifestation of the power you're trying to effectively quicken by a round but also costs only a minimum of 1PP more and doesn't use up any actions in the round it's manifested.

JadePhoenix

2012-04-21, 09:31 AM

McToomin

2012-04-21, 09:47 AM

The linked one seems to be less abusive. If I can port in, trip the guy, then on the next round full attack, and then port out for lower pp cost, I'd be happy with that.

Despite what I said early, I think I am going to go mostly ardent. My build right now is looking like Fighter 1 (martial weapon and armor proficiencies, +1 BAB, and bonus feat)/Ardent X. I realize psywar would give me most of that, but I wouldn't gain any extra pp (as they don't gain any at first level), and I'd lose out on a BAB. I know I'd be able to grab a power or something, but I'd rather only take a single psionic class, and I want that BAB, so fighter it is.

I just texted the DM to try and get a Goliath Dragonborn approved. :P

I haven't planned my feats out yet. I'll Expanded Knowledge for Expansion first chance I get. With this build I'm only down 1 manifester level, would it be worth it to take Practiced Manifester, assuming I go Ardent 19? I realize if I prestige out or lose any more MLs that Practiced Manifester becomes more worth it.

*EDIT* The reason I decided Ardent was because the vastly superior power point pool vs. psywar's bonus feats. I have no doubt that some excellent psywar builds are possible, but for what I want my character to be, it looks like those (many, many) additional power points are going to be better than feats. With Dimension Hop, I can full attack anyone within my (augmented) range. I can also retreat from any foe and move to another with Dimension Hop without worrying about attacks of opportunity at all (since swift psionics don't provoke). It just seems like the better way to go for me. *crosses fingers for Goliath Dragonborn :P*

eggs

2012-04-21, 01:05 PM

I mentioned this before, but it's relevant to the PP discussion, so I want to clarify it a bit better.

With the Psychic Meditation (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827b) feat line, the Psychic Warrior comes out with about the same endurance as an Ardent without it, and 4 other bonus feats. With a gish's feat demands, the Ardent is probably going to have something else occupying its feats.

For quick reference on what the feats do:
Psychic Meditation allows a psychic warrior to tap an energy center 1 time/day.
Tapping an energy center gives temporary PP equal to the Psychic Warrior's manifester level.
These PP last 1 hour, so it is usually possible to tap the energy centers without using combat actions (tap it when entering a dungeon/sleazy bandit hideout, or when manifesting hours/level powers).
And if not, it costs a standard action to tap in combat (which isn't great, but is no worse than a swordsage refreshing maneuvers).
Deeper Psychic Meditation allows the psychic warrior to tap the energy centers +2 times/day, and can be taken 3 times total.

But Goliath Barbarian/Ardent or PsyWar is pretty awesome, so that should work nicely. And remember that Hidden Talent is like Expanded Knowledge++ for level 1 powers.

McToomin

2012-04-21, 02:08 PM

Draz74

2012-04-21, 02:50 PM

I don't understand how the psywar comes out with that many pp. The ardent ends up with 340+ by 20th level, while the psywar only gets ~120. At level 20, gaining 20 temporary pp 3/day only gains ~60 pp total, right, giving psywar an effective 180, vs. ardent's 340+? Or am I misunderstanding something?

You're missing the part where the build he described can use the trick 7/day, not 3/day.

Still not sure that evens things up, though.

Flickerdart

2012-04-21, 03:51 PM

McToomin

2012-04-21, 04:06 PM

Well there's no conflict, the text doesn't say what kind of action it is. But apparently later books errata'd it to swift.

eggs

2012-04-21, 04:20 PM

It doesn't even out, but it stays even until around level 15.
At that point, there's about 50 PP to play with per fight, which is plenty for expanding to huge, flashing around the battlefield and carving things up.

And if it's not enough, Psychic Warrior 11/Meditant 9 still nets a positive number of bonus feats compared to the Ardent and comes out 55ish PP ahead.

Either way, the Psychic Warrior can get enough PP, if it needs to. The bigger issue is how things fit together in terms of Ardent's feat and power progression. I'd map the Ardent progression out first and, if there are too powers that have to be wasted with junk filler, or too many levels spent waiting for feat chains to come together, revert to the Psychic Warrior.

gomipile

2012-04-21, 04:33 PM

What's the advantage of going Psychic Warrior over Ardent? I'm looking at them now and Ardent seems to be superior, at least for what I'm trying to focus on.

To be Nightcrawler-y you'll want a lot of power points, so yes, Ardent will be better. Psychic Warrior builds typically focus on the use of [Psionic] feats, or otherwise dip Psychic Warrior only to qualify for something or other as a psionic character.

JadePhoenix

2012-04-21, 05:43 PM

I just texted the DM to try and get a Goliath Dragonborn approved. :P

Wouldn't you lose Powerful Build using that setup?

McToomin

2012-04-21, 09:00 PM

Nope, the Mechanics of Rebirth sidebar specifically states that you keep powerful build.

Bloodgruve

2012-04-21, 10:28 PM

You would be wrong to do so - when there is conflict between text and table, text trumps table.

This is true, however the Quicken Power text as read in EPH makes no mention of what type of action it is. Therefore if you reference the table which states it is a Free Action then I would assume that it is in fact a Free Action. Unless the is errata that states otherwise or I've missed something. I have always assumed that a Quickend Power was a swift action until now.

Blood~

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-04-21, 11:10 PM

This is true, however the Quicken Power text as read in EPH makes no mention of what type of action it is. Therefore if you reference the table which states it is a Free Action then I would assume that it is in fact a Free Action. Unless the is errata that states otherwise or I've missed something. I have always assumed that a Quickend Power was a swift action until now.

Blood~

RAW, this is right. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#quickenPower) That said, it eats a lot of PP to do it and doesn't come online until ECL 11 with Dimension Door due to the +6 jump from Quicken Power. Because of your focus, you're either limiting yourself to once/fight doing this trick or have two feats going to a psicrystal to do it 2/fight. Maybe also Psionic Meditation so you can at least use a standard action power or attack.

It's just not viable, especially if you're using a dimension door clone due to the whole "can't spend actions" clause. Even if the DM goes with the RAW, it starts late, is expensive on power points, and limited to once a fight without more feats.

Then you get into the power point cost of a 11th level PsyWar (and Ardent) has with a +6 modifier (base 16 with a +4 enhancement item and level ups) 68 (139) power points. Using Quicken Power gives you 6/day (13 for Ardents), but only once or twice per fight with some feat expenditure.

As others have said, items are the way to go with Dimension Hop being your bread and butter for longer ranges via augmentation. That being said, the OP might want to check out the Soul Manifestor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) and do some weird Totemist/Ardent buff self-buffed natural attack monster. The benefit is that you can get in via Totemist 2/Ardent 1 and Practiced Manifestor. The bad news is Soul Manifestor is poor BAB.

Bloodgruve

2012-04-21, 11:23 PM

Since he's going Ardent he can now take Dominant Ideal ACF at level 10 which would effectively drop a Quickened 10' Dimension Hop to 5PP and he wouldn't have to expend his focus. Although Linked Power Hop>Hop would give the same effect for 1pp round after round I believe using the incomeing link hop to move in and a new hop to move out.

Blood~

eggs

2012-04-22, 12:18 AM

Just to be a total buzzkill,

EPH page 59:
"Manifesting a quickened power is a swift action."

Bloodgruve

2012-04-22, 12:55 AM

Just to be a total buzzkill,

EPH page 59:
"Manifesting a quickened power is a swift action."

This is why I love 3.5, new stuff hidden around every corner...

Blood~

McToomin

2012-04-22, 08:45 AM

Yeah I don't thinkill go with quickened power, to high of a pp cost to make it with it.

I am still confused on high the psywar's pp could even approach the ardent's, as I don't understand how it could just by reading over the relevant feats myself.

Rejusu

2012-04-22, 09:02 AM

Rejutsu, what Eldariel meant is that Quicken Power works as Quicken Spell and Quicken effects were updated as swift actions on Complete Arcane. As such, RAI seems to be that Quicken Power is a swift action as well. I wouldn't build anything on such a blatant RAW abuse.

Which isn't relevant at all to what I was talking about. I was saying that he added up the PP wrong. A quickened dimension hop costs 7PP (Dimension Hop is 1PP and Quicken adds 6) and so you can do it by manifester level 7, not 9. I didn't say anything about the action cost of it.

Eldariel

2012-04-22, 10:24 AM

Which isn't relevant at all to what I was talking about. I was saying that he added up the PP wrong. A quickened dimension hop costs 7PP (Dimension Hop is 1PP and Quicken adds 6) and so you can do it by manifester level 7, not 9. I didn't say anything about the action cost of it.

Yeah, I recalled DH was an l2 power. Eh, whatever.

McToomin

2012-04-22, 04:26 PM

I don't understand how the psywar comes out with that many pp. The ardent ends up with 340+ by 20th level, while the psywar only gets ~120. At level 20, gaining 20 temporary pp 3/day only gains ~60 pp total, right, giving psywar an effective 180, vs. ardent's 340+? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Still not sure how this works, if anyone can help me.

And I got Goliath dragonborn approved, so I think I will go psywar since Goliath is already LA +1, I don't want to lose any more manifester levels and/or feats to be able to grab a good two-handed weapon and heavy armor.

eggs

2012-04-22, 08:07 PM

Still not sure how this works, if anyone can help me.
The Psychic Warrior gets 7*ML PP from 4 of the feats.
It's not as many, but it's enough.

Alternatively, Psychic Warrior 11/Meditant 9 turns it from 7*ML PP to 15*ML PP, which is more PP than the Ardent gets, with more freedom in its power selection and still at a net positive in terms of feats.

Ardent can be better, but its mantle mechanic makes it a bitch to assemble, and it's almost always hurting for feats. Plan everything ahead of time. If you can make it work without filling your powers known with junk, and without spending 5 levels waiting for a feat chain to come together, go with Ardent. Otherwise, Psychic Warrior is almost as good, and has the feats to be better at melee.

Rejusu

2012-04-23, 05:48 AM

Ardent can be better, but its mantle mechanic makes it a bitch to assemble, and it's almost always hurting for feats. Plan everything ahead of time. If you can make it work without filling your powers known with junk, and without spending 5 levels waiting for a feat chain to come together, go with Ardent. Otherwise, Psychic Warrior is almost as good, and has the feats to be better at melee.

Yeah, it's something that you don't really think about at first but when you do you realise what a massive limitation the primary mantle requirements can be. You really have to select them carefully if you don't want to end up being forced to pick up crummy powers to fit the bill.

McToomin

2012-04-23, 06:33 AM

Yeah after retracing those feats I understand how the extra pp works, and since Goliath is LA +1 I don't want to lose any more manifester levels/feats/etc. gaining martial weapon and heavy armor proficiency so I think I'm goIng to go psywar after all. Thanks again for the help everyone!