Breaking down walls

[Madeiner]

Hi there.

I was wondering, surely my players can not be the only ones that want to destroy walls and doors everywhere they go.

Does anyone know how hard actually is to break down a wall/door?

If you are in a normal building, how hard is to destroy a piece of wall (let's say not weight bearing) with a sword/axe/pickaxe enough to let a person pass through?
How much time do you need, and can you do it at all?

How about fantasy dungeons, where heroes are high level and inflict 60+ damage per hit, and stone wall sections have around 300 hp? Do you rule that they can bust through in 5 rounds?

[Sturmcrow]

When I was a young teenager I got really upset because I thought my sister had locked me out, Not only did I break the door but I took the door frame out of the wall. Took me the equivalent of one hard blow.

Against a real solid wood door trying to break through with edged weapons might take awhile but you only really need to destroy where it latches. With a blunt object as a battering ram ala what police use, it shouldnt be too difficult. Chopping at a door takes time because you are only damaging an area the size of the blade.

[supermonkeyjoe]

check out the section here Called Breaking and Entering (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm)

Everything you ever wanted to know about breaking things.

[Dr.Epic]

Isn't there a section in the PHB about breaking doors and walls?:smallconfused:

[Jeraa]

Isn't there a section in the PHB about breaking doors and walls?:smallconfused:

PHB, no. (That section was already linked above). Its in the DMG here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm) and here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#wallsAndGates).

[Madeiner]

Actually, i wasn't talking about d&d or other systems.

I wanted a comment on how hard is it to tear walls down in real life.
I know about the system in d&d 3.5, and i think it isnt realistic enough.

But i am mainly running a modern day zombie game now, with my characters wanting to tear down an office wall with a sword, and i don't know how to handle it. I don't know if it is even possible.

[hymer]

The problem is 'wall'. Taking down a mud-and-straw wall takes a while, but can essentially be achieved with an iron spoon and patience. On the other end of the spectrum is hardened, steel-reinforced concrete. That's pretty much indestructable by hand.

[Madeiner]

Of course different kinds of walls will have different properties.
I don't know much about constructions, so i was hoping someone would be able to tell me about a few different types of common walls (such as an office or building walls, or dungeon stone walls, etc).

I have no idea if a "common" building wall can be destroyed in a minute, or an hour, or even at all without specialized gear and training.

[ericgrau]

Taking down an inside office wall is trivial because it's made of drywall. Even a weak person can punch right through it with his fist. Though so can a zombie if he realizes it. Drywall is a brittle rock material. Think of it as only somewhat stronger than half inch think sheets of chalk.

The outside walls are usually made of 3/4" thick sheets of plywood. You could punch through it fast with an axe but a sword in the hands of an average strength person would only leave an indentation halfway through. A sword in the hands of a strong person would break through but you'd need multiple hacks to make an opening instead of merely a cut with bent wood around it. It would take a minute or so though; not good if you're fleeing.

In either case there are vertical 2x4's spaced about 18 inches apart. So you might have trouble getting large objects through your opening. There's also fiberglass insulation in between the 2x4's which you can rip out like cotton candy.

Sometimes outside walls are made of brick and a sword would have little chance of doing anything beyond flaking off a few thin shards. Several swings of a sledgehammer could break free some bricks. Though it's not fast enough if you're running away.

[tyckspoon]

In modern construction, doors and (non-load-bearing) interior walls are pretty easy to break. Doors are only as strong as their hinges, and there's usually no reason to make those especially sturdy- if you're dealing with a standard wood-frame mounted door, all you have to do is hit it hard enough to make the screws/bolts on the hinges rip through the wood, or smash the bolt of the lock loose, or otherwise break some part of the surrounding structure of the door. Walls are often drywall or sheetrock between a wide-spaced frame, covered with a thin layer of plaster/stucco/paint; you can dent this stuff with a firm punch, you can put holes in it easily with any kind of decent tool, and there's enough space between structural elements to make a person-sized passage without much trouble.

[nedz]

Why not just open a window ?

[hymer]

You can just take 10 on opening windows, nedz. Some modern windows are DC 15 on your first try, but I digress.

I guess the real question here is, why do OP's players feel inclined to break down walls. OP?

[Jay R]

But i am mainly running a modern day zombie game now, with my characters wanting to tear down an office wall with a sword, and i don't know how to handle it. I don't know if it is even possible.

Interior office walls are usually breakable, without much equipment. And if they pick their spot carefully they might not even electrocute themselves.

High voltage wires go up and down in those walls.

[Madeiner]

I guess the real question here is, why do OP's players feel inclined to break down walls. OP?



Thank you all for your answers :)
I wouldn't have guessed walls were so easy to destroy.
I keep looking and knocking at the walls in my room, and i picture myself with a broken hand if i try to punch it hard, not being able to even scratch it. But it looks i must be wrong. I need a hammer and an old abandoned house somewhere... :P

Since you asked about my players, it happened a few times when they weren't able to solve a puzzle (in d&d) to open some doors, so they wanted to destroy the entire wall around the magically reinforced door. Some puzzles revolved around "locations" inside the dungeon. When you don't need a door to get to a location, those puzzles are basically moot.

About the zombie game, currently the characters are inside an office building on the run from some zombies. They got trapped in an office by running in the wrong direction. Zombies are on the other side of both doors. They are hurt, fatigued, and out of ammo. They were ready to give me their sheets back, but we ended the session right there as it was late.

I want them to escape, but i fear if i allow them to just break the walls in 5 minutes, then they will try to tear down walls everytime they are trapped somewhere. They are a pretty intelligent bunch and can think out of the box. I don't want all walls in the game to become basically a 5-minute exercise and then you are free.

So, if walls are so easy to break, can anyone suggest me what can go wrong when trying to destroy one? Injuries are a possibility, and someone mentioned high-voltage cables. Any other thing i could use to dissuade them from breaking every wall they find? Fatigue is part of the game, so that's one thing that can help me, and i already accounted for it.

[Ashtagon]

You can just take 10 on opening windows, nedz. Some modern windows are DC 15 on your first try, but I digress.

I guess the real question here is, why do OP's players feel inclined to break down walls. OP?

In many modern air-conditioned office buildings, the windows are double glazed and do not open; the design intention is that the aircon will provide all fresh air needs.

[nedz]

Walls, Doors, and Windows vary in their strength and thickness depending upon their construction.

Wood or Mud walls are fairly easy to smash through, though very think ones will take a lot longer. There have been several forts made of such materials, though these tend to be of a temporary nature.

Brick and Masonry walls are a little tougher. Their strength comes from their material as well as their construction.

Solid Rock can be quite soft if its made of rocks such as Shale, Talc or Soapstone. Chalk, Coal etc get progressively harder.

Walls made of solid metal, or some mythical stuff like solid force are harder still. Some of these may be too hard to break.

I'm guessing that the reason your players are taking the masonry route is because you have too many traps on your doors, or that you have made your doors tougher than your walls. But I could be wrong, it might just have become the way they do things.

What can go wrong ?

Well taking out a wall can make a lot of noise and dust.
They can also not lead anywhere very useful.
Maybe they break through into a tank of water, oil or even acid ?
Maybe they uncover something which was not meant to be uncovered, like some walled up ancient evil ?
Perhaps the wall/roof falls in because they have damaged the structural integrity of the structure, I mean do they have knowledge of things like Mining or Architecture ?

[tyckspoon]

I want them to escape, but i fear if i allow them to just break the walls in 5 minutes, then they will try to tear down walls everytime they are trapped somewhere. They are a pretty intelligent bunch and can think out of the box. I don't want all walls in the game to become basically a 5-minute exercise and then you are free.

So, if walls are so easy to break, can anyone suggest me what can go wrong when trying to destroy one? Injuries are a possibility, and someone mentioned high-voltage cables. Any other thing i could use to dissuade them from breaking every wall they find? Fatigue is part of the game, so that's one thing that can help me, and i already accounted for it.

Well, not *all* walls have to be built that weak; you can also get things ranging from concrete block construction to just really weird layouts where there's a nice chunky cross beam every 6 inches, although you probably won't encounter that kind of thing inside an office building.

Obstructions in walls.. the most common will probably be accidentally bashing into functional parts of the interior space and dust. Electric lines, plumbing, and heating/cooling/venting ductwork are often run through the insides of walls, and hitting them in the process of doing some impromptu demolition could range from merely unpleasant (you spring a leak in a plumbing line, everybody is sprayed with stagnant water) to highly lethal (your makeshift paper-trimmer machete chops through the insulation on an electric mains line. You are dead, thanks for playing.) You'd have to be doing some really *enthusiastic* destruction, tho; the covering on most walls is thick enough that you're relatively unlikely to blow through it in one shot with enough force to significantly damage the stuff behind it.

Dust is probably the most common danger your players would encounter; drywall crumbles into pretty thick dust, and smacking the walls is going to shake loose a lot more that was comfortably settled in places where it wasn't bothering anybody (on the ceiling, in the light fixtures, etc.) Without protective gear you'd be looking at potentially severe vision obstruction, breathing difficulties, and of course simply getting everybody and everything coated with some pretty thick dirt (including any potentially sensitive electronics the party may be relying on in a modern setting.)

[Knaight]

It really depends on the wall and the door. Just looking at doors I go through all the time, there is a three inch thick solid wood door (you aren't kicking through this one without some pretty major tools, period), a cheap hollow wood door that holes can be punched in accidentally, a door with a gigantic glass pane that could be shattered with minimal effort, a thin solid wood door that is going to be difficult to get through. As for walls, there's cheap plaster and then there's concrete backed with steel.

Also, breaking down walls really doesn't help much if you're in an upper story.

[Knight13]

I keep looking and knocking at the walls in my room, and i picture myself with a broken hand if i try to punch it hard, not being able to even scratch it. But it looks i must be wrong. I need a hammer and an old abandoned house somewhere... :P

Keep in mind that this is modern office buildings and businesses and such that have flimsy walls like that. Residential houses, especially older ones, may be quite a lot sturdier. My parents' house is around 80 years old and the front door is heavy, solid wood with big old iron hinges and a big latch. If you tried to kick that thing in you'd be more likely to break your leg than to get the door open. The walls are pretty tough, too.

[Madeiner]

Thanks everyone for your responses :) You have helped me a lot, and then some more with the dust/perils/obstruction bits.
It also looks like there is enough variation in walls so that i can simply say some parts are basically not destroyable without a sledgehammer and a good amount of time.

Oh and since its a zombie game i am running now, a lot of dust and coughing surely means a zombie that gets the jump on you :)

[lyko555]

Yay for once my trade comes in handy. Most walls in an office are going to be either a flimsy metal stud every 16 or 24 inches apart or a 2x4 6 or 24 inches apart depending on age of building. Also depending on how tall the building is or how it was made that can change quickly.
My company makes structural stud walls that stand up and become the building itself if you wanted to go through one of those nothing but a blow torch would get you through the studs as they are 16 - 12 gauge with a 8 inch metal strap running diagonally through them.
if its not a structural wall its going to be flimsy as hell its going to most likely be a 10 ft tall wall with 25gauge stud in it. Alot of inside walls in modern construction dont actually go all the way to the roof they go up 6inches past wherever the ceiling is. ( assuming its a drop tile ceiling) in order to go through 1 of these you could tear a man sized hole in under a minute as the studs only hold force from the side so as soon as you get in the Sheetrock they can be crumpled sideways quite easily.
im not sure where people are getting this clouds of dust thing. Sheetrock is realitivly stable in board form the only way you would get that much dust is if you hit it with something that shredded into it. for instance if i use a router to cut out a box it uses a spinning bit to shred the gypsum therefore making lots of dust, if i put my fist through the wall and pull the gypsum cracks like a cracker and the paper shredds off but it doesnt produce that much dust. it also depends on where the dry wall joint is. because rock comes in 4ft by 12ft sheets on most big jobs.

so its probably going to come down to what tools they try and use. its a lot harder to hack your way through than to just punch and pull. as for electrical conduits those are easiy to find just look for the outlet they normally run up about 2 ft then slide through the punches in the studs.
As for hazards the worst sliding a blade through an office wire is going to do is give you a tingle accompanied by a loud POP and a bright arc-flash which leaves a nice blackened circle in what you hit it with.

all in all modern day walls are flimsy old style walls with plaster mesh over brick takes heavy duty tools to get through. If they're in a newer building have fun with it the can get through the walls pretty easily but zombies are going to do it faster cause they aren't trying to think their way through it.

[Hazzardevil]

Breaking down office walls will be pretty easy, although there is mroe to breaking down walls than force. A lot of it is a state of mind. You need to imagine the wall isn't there and aim for the floor behind it, otherwise your brain yells "Stop, your violating physics! And you will just get a sore hand or arm, so a wisdom check would probably be part of breaking a wall.

[Kuma Kode]

I doubt electricity will be a hazard. Assuming no one is alive to maintain it (or not enough are alive), most power plants fail within 24 hours. Even those that get their power from something constant and natural, like a hydroelectric dam or a nuclear power plant, still require human intervention and observation. They shut off if no one is there to keep them on track, so after 48 hours, it's almost guaranteed that no building in the city has power running to it.

Even if the building has an emergency power source, like hospitals do, they are usually gas burning engines and still can only power the building for another day or two without being refilled. After a week, there is no power anywhere at all.

Depending on how realistic you want to get, all nuclear power plants would eventually enter a meltdown state after running through their coolant and do a Chernobyl. With that going on all over the world, pretty much everything would die from radiation. Most zombie movies ignore that.

[Knaight]

Keep in mind that this is modern office buildings and businesses and such that have flimsy walls like that. Residential houses, especially older ones, may be quite a lot sturdier. My parents' house is around 80 years old and the front door is heavy, solid wood with big old iron hinges and a big latch. If you tried to kick that thing in you'd be more likely to break your leg than to get the door open. The walls are pretty tough, too.

This is very true. I live in an old log cabin in the middle of the city, and the walls are guaranteed to be tougher than those of most of the rest. Solid trees need tools to get through, cheap plaster less so.

[Necroticplague]

Depending on how realistic you want to get, all nuclear power plants would eventually enter a meltdown state after running through their coolant and do a Chernobyl. With that going on all over the world, pretty much everything would die from radiation. Most zombie movies ignore that.

Doubtful, modern reactors have several safety measures against, this, Chernobyl was caused by turning those measures off. First off, the modern cycle is self-regulating, due to the fact that it becomes less reactive at higher temperatures. Than their are automatic computer-based contingencies that can watch out for things automatically take action, such as increasing coolant flow, or even SCRAMing it if the need arises.Of course, something would eventually go wrong (murphy's law+law of large numbers), but then it would simply shut itself down and lay dormant, the radiation from the cores being absorbed by a thick layer of shielding and many, many gallons of water.

[Kuma Kode]

Doubtful, modern reactors have several safety measures against, this, Chernobyl was caused by turning those measures off. First off, the modern cycle is self-regulating, due to the fact that it becomes less reactive at higher temperatures. Than their are automatic computer-based contingencies that can watch out for things automatically take action, such as increasing coolant flow, or even SCRAMing it if the need arises.Of course, something would eventually go wrong (murphy's law+law of large numbers), but then it would simply shut itself down and lay dormant, the radiation from the cores being absorbed by a thick layer of shielding and many, many gallons of water. Well, that's good to know. I forget where I read such a thing, but you seem to know much more about it than I do. Still, even without the death by nuclear explosion situation, there still won't be any power in the city.

[Jeraa]

Well, that's good to know. I forget where I read such a thing, but you seem to know much more about it than I do. Still, even without the death by nuclear explosion situation, there still won't be any power in the city.

Not necessarily. While most power plants will stop producing electricity with a day (or a few), hydroelectric dams will continue producing electricity until either their water intakes clog up, or the turbines break down.

The History Channel did a series called Life After People that explores what would happen to the world if every person just disappeared one day. After 20 years, Las Vegas will be the only place on earth with electricity, because of Hoover Dam.

[Hazzardevil]

The History Channel did a series called Life After People that explores what would happen to the world if every person just disappeared one day. After 20 years, Las Vegas will be the only place on earth with electricity, because of Hoover Dam.

Now everyone knows what to do if a zombie apocalypse occurs.

[Andrewmoreton]

Well, that's good to know. I forget where I read such a thing, but you seem to know much more about it than I do. Still, even without the death by nuclear explosion situation, there still won't be any power in the city.

Something which always bugs me. You CANNOT get an nuclear explosion from a Nuclear reactor even if you try very hard. To actually initiate a Nuclear Explosion is a remarkably difficult thing to do and requires forcing the fissionable material to do things it does not want to do. If it could happen by accident North Korea, Iran etc would not be trying so hard to make viable weapons and the Manhatten project would have been much cheaper and faster.
If you accidentally create a critical mass , which has a run away chain reaction it melts and flows away and never sustains the reaction sufficiently to get the big energy release which is called an explosion, to get the stuff to do that you have to force it into super compressed state which with current technology requires very powerful and well sequenced explosives.
Even given that most of the material in a power plant is poorly suited for an actual weapon you need either to refine your uranium to get the right isotopes or create plutonium , neither of which are commonly used in reactors (there are reactors which use them and you can use the right reactor to make plutonium ).
The worst you can get from a reactor is pretty much what you got at Chernobyl a steam explosion cracking the containment and a partial meltdown of the nuclear material giving off a lot of unpleasent radiation (killing the people containing the incident) and releasing some less unpleasent but still nasty radioactive material into the atmosphere.

[Madeiner]

They shut off if no one is there to keep them on track, so after 48 hours, it's almost guaranteed that no building in the city has power running to it.

Even if the building has an emergency power source, like hospitals do, they are usually gas burning engines and still can only power the building for another day or two without being refilled. After a week, there is no power anywhere at all.


Yeah i thought of that of course.
For sake of drama, internet will shut down on the third day, and electriticy 5 days after the outbreak.
Currently we are playing day 2 and the PCs are relying way to much on internet.

Well if it was me, i would have downloaed the entire wikipedia as soon as possible in case of zombie attack. Would be immensely useful.

I'd really like to read something about what will happen in case of an apocalypse. Electricity down in two days. What about food? Gas? etc etc

[Opperhapsen]

Not necessarily. While most power plants will stop producing electricity with a day (or a few), hydroelectric dams will continue producing electricity until either their water intakes clog up, or the turbines break down.

The History Channel did a series called Life After People that explores what would happen to the world if every person just disappeared one day. After 20 years, Las Vegas will be the only place on earth with electricity, because of Hoover Dam.

So what, Three gorges just stop working?
That thing is so big it messed with the earth's rotation.

[Jeraa]

So what, Three gorges just stop working?
That thing is so big it messed with the earth's rotation.

Of course it just stops working. It was made in China after all.

If I remember right, Three Gorges was never mentioned in the program. But it (and pretty much all other hydroelectric dams) should keep functioning for years. Maybe whoever wrote that part of the program somehow determined that Three Gorges would stop functioning before Hoover Dam.

[tyckspoon]

Of course it just stops working. It was made in China after all.

If I remember right, Three Gorges was never mentioned in the program. But it (and pretty much all other hydroelectric dams) should keep functioning for years. Maybe whoever wrote that part of the program somehow determined that Three Gorges would stop functioning before Hoover Dam.

Eh. In the long term, it doesn't matter all that much; transmission lines and switching stations will wear out or be destroyed within a fairly short period (inside of a year for the lines if you're in a region with the combo of exposed lines + extreme weather possibilities) and then you're still out of electricity just as much as if the central generator plant shut down.

Good point in the short term, tho; zombies are unlikely to deliberately destroy infrastructure, so continued supply of things like power and water is going to be based on how much of the utility system can run autonomously for a while and how much is going to run out of fuel/go into safety-failure/shutdown mode when humans stop supporting it.

[Knight13]

I'd really like to read something about what will happen in case of an apocalypse. Electricity down in two days. What about food? Gas? etc etc
Gas could be found at abandoned gas stations and the like. Even if the pumps stopped working you could still pump it directly from the underground storage tank. I'm no chemist, but as far as I know gasoline does not degrade, or at least not in any time frame short enough to matter.

Food could be found at supermarkets and grocery stores, obviously. Unless frozen, perishable stuff would go bad within a couple weeks. Non-perishable stuff could last as long as a few years. Aside from a few things that never go bad, like honey, you'd have to either grow your own food or live off the land after that.

[Ashtagon]

Of course it just stops working. It was made in China after all.

If I remember right, Three Gorges was never mentioned in the program. But it (and pretty much all other hydroelectric dams) should keep functioning for years. Maybe whoever wrote that part of the program somehow determined that Three Gorges would stop functioning before Hoover Dam.

Let me guess. this program was produced in America? American mass consumption television and film has a pitiful track record at recognising that a world exists beyond US borders.

(To be fair, most nations' mass media have the same chauvinistic blinkers on)


Food could be found at supermarkets and grocery stores, obviously. Unless frozen, perishable stuff would go bad within a couple weeks. Non-perishable stuff could last as long as a few years. Aside from a few things that never go bad, like honey, you'd have to either grow your own food or live off the land after that.

Tinned food will last decades.

[Wardog]

Construction materials and consequently wall strenght can also vary according to culture and country.

I get the impression that the UK is much keener on brick/breezeblock construction than the US, especially for houses, but also for offices.

Most of the offices at my work site (early to mid 20th Century) are very solid, with big thick brick/breezblock walls (and lost of asbestos). One building was designed to withstand the Luftwaffe, although was never put to the test.