Swordsage VS Fighter. Round one. Fight!

[Gharkash]

As the tittle suggests, at the latest Mortal Kombat tournament a fighter and a swordsage crossed swords. Who won?


Assuming both have most of their class levels in their main class
All books allowed
No "i read it that way, so it works" builds or gamebreakers
To simplify things, both have the same access to waeponry, no magic items on any of them


I just want to "test" a theory, no need to actually build characters, but if you have the time and are in the mood of doing so feel free.

Thanks.

[Emperor Tippy]

Swordsage, pretty much every time. Especially if neither one is allowed to PrC/level dip.

[INoKnowNames]

A Pure Fighter vs a Pure Swordsage, no Shenanigans on either Part?

I'm completely biased, but have you seen some of the abilities a Swordsage gains? Most people build fighters to be Chargers, and the Swordsage actually has the capacity to stop a Charger from attacking it, as well as stoping a regular attack against it.

So, if the Swordsage wins initiative, it can approach the fighter in several different ways, from warping to hovering to dashing, and then lay the smackdown in plenty of different moves. And if the Swordsage goes second, it can still stop the fighter from instantly killing it, and then kill him in several different ways. No shenanigans, simply the benefit of actually having class features.

My money is on the Swordsage, easily.

[Draken]

The maneuver mentioned above is the appropriately named Counter Charge manuver from the Setting Sun discipline. It is avaiable as early as level 1. So yes, even if the fighter wins initiative, his attack will most likely be negated in one of miriad fashions and in turn the fighter will have nothing but his armor class to rely on against the Swordsage, with the right Diamond Mind maneuver, not even that.

[Lateral]

Swordsage. Oh, so Swordsage.

[Rejusu]

The criteria is rather vague but if neither of them have any magic items (assuming this includes magical weapons and armour) then swordsage hands down. Fighters aren't amazing as it is. Take away their magic toys and they're even less useful. Where as the swordsage has manoeuvres, which are basically sword spells.

[Malachei]

I'm tempted to say Swordsage. Because of the mobility, ranged attacks and condition-incurring maneuvers.

But, in a melee, would the Swordsage stand against Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick)?

[danzibr]

What level are they? Both 20?

And you said they're mostly the base class? So would something else 9/Fighter 11 be okay?

Maybe the Fighter can do some crazy stuff with intimidate to scare the Swordsage (though I'm not too keen on this), but I'd probably say Swordsage.

[Igneel]

Swordsage. So one sided, its like comparing the Dragonfire Adept's Tiamat Fivefold Breath vs the Dragon Shamans basic breath without Metabreaths.

[sonofzeal]

A trip-focussed Fighter could really mess up a Swordsage's day at low level. And a grapple-focussed Fighter could too with BAB advantage, and both "Improved Grapple" and potentially "Weapon Focus/Spec: Grapple" on their list of bonus feats (yes, trap feats, but whatever). A Swordsage with sufficient grounding in Tiger Claw could fight back against the Grappler, but it's by no means guaranteed that they'll have sufficient resources there to do much of anything, especially at lower level. Tiger Claw's grapple maneuvers are usually a lower priority for most Swordsages, I find.

[Draz74]

The maneuver mentioned above is the appropriately named Counter Charge manuver from the Setting Sun discipline.
Shifting Defense stance is also relevant.


It is avaiable as early as level 1. So yes, even if the fighter wins initiative, his attack will most likely be negated in one of miriad fashions
Beg to differ. If the Fighter wins initiative (and can reach the Swordsage in one round), the Swordsage will be flat-footed and will not be eligible to initiate any Counters.


But, in a melee, would the Swordsage stand against Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick)?

JBQ mostly gets additional attacks for every time you attack him. So it largely depends on whether the Swordsage is able to deal a LOT of damage in a few attacks (rather than generating a myriad of attacks per round). If the Swordsage has Greater Insightful Strike and Diamond Nightmare Blade, those will hurt JBQ quite a lot ...

[grarrrg]

Swordsage. So one sided, its like comparing the Dragonfire Adept's Tiamat Fivefold Breath vs the Dragon Shamans basic breath without Metabreaths.


It's so one sided, it's like pitting the Golden Age Superman against the Adam West Batman in a fight to the death!

[Malachei]

JBQ mostly gets additional attacks for every time you attack him. So it largely depends on whether the Swordsage is able to deal a LOT of damage in a few attacks (rather than generating a myriad of attacks per round). If the Swordsage has Greater Insightful Strike and Diamond Nightmare Blade, those will hurt JBQ quite a lot ...

Assuming SWS can recover maneuvers via Adaptive Style in safety. I'd say if temporary retreat is allowed, SWS should always win, but otherwise?

And six attacks to one with Overpowering Attack will do a heavy amount of damage.

Perhaps the FTR sweet spot, if any, in this conflict is even earlier, before the SWS has the high level maneuvers?

[Chronos]

For starters, unless this fight is occurring on the proverbial featureless plain, the swordsage is probably going to be unseen and unheard. Swordsages get Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot as class skills, and enough skill points to make use of them, while fighters have none of that.

Then, the swordsage also has ways, if he chooses to use them, to fly without using magic items. So any tricks the fighter has beyond a bow and arrows are useless.

The fighter does have the ability to replicate some of the swordsage's tricks, via the Martial Study and Martial Stance feat. But he can only get a small handful that way, he can only use any of them once per fight, and he won't get them until twice the level where the swordsage gets them.

The swordsage, meanwhile, can access almost any of the fighter's tricks. He can't access all of them, since he doesn't have as many feat slots, but that's OK, since he can control which of the tricks are relevant.


JBQ mostly gets additional attacks for every time you attack him. So it largely depends on whether the Swordsage is able to deal a LOT of damage in a few attacks (rather than generating a myriad of attacks per round). If the Swordsage has Greater Insightful Strike and Diamond Nightmare Blade, those will hurt JBQ quite a lot ... Or the swordsage could just not attack at all, and instead burn down the fighter with Desert Sun blasts.

[Lapak]

In Combat? Probably the Swordsage, assuming they're both built well. The Fighter could win if things really go his way, but it would probably go to the Swordsage.

[Soloing a typical dungeon-type environment/hex-crawling in the wilderness/navigating a social-heavy urban environment] without the support of a party? Unquestionably the Swordsage; between skill points and utility/mobility maneuvers he's got way more tools in the box.

[Malachei]

@Chronos: That the SWS will win outside of arena-style melee, has been mostly agreed upon, Ithink.

[Gharkash]

I think you covered enough ground with your replies, thank you.

[Draz74]

Or the swordsage could just not attack at all, and instead burn down the fighter with Desert Sun blasts.

The damage on those maneuvers is pretty sad. The Fighter might win if the fight goes this way, just by using basic archery.

[INoKnowNames]

So, basically, at Low Levels the Fighter has a chance if he wins initiative and has a straight shot at the swordsage if he grapples, assuming the swordsage hasn't invested some of his resources into ensuring against that kind of combat, which he can.

At high levels, the swordsage can pretend to be a Blaster Mage with little resistance, if any, from the fighter. Aren't there also ways for the Swordsage to become invisible and render attacks from the fighter useless for a bit, for the sake of getting close to him and stunning him?

Can JBQ win if he's stunned? Or a Grappler? (I don't mean this sarcastically, I'm honestly asking, since I forget what each of the things do.)

I still say Swordsage, although I guess it's not 100% certain. Maybe 80-90% so. There's some possibility based on the level of the fight and the tactics both sides use, as well as when and how the fight begins. Although Blaster Sage, while as meh an option as Weapon Focus Grappler Fighter is, still pretty much autowins the fight, even in a standard arena.

[Dusk Eclipse]

For starters, unless this fight is occurring on the proverbial featureless plain, the swordsage is probably going to be unseen and unheard. Swordsages get Hide, Move Silently, Listen, and Spot as class skills, and enough skill points to make use of them, while fighters have none of that.

Then, the swordsage also has ways, if he chooses to use them, to fly without using magic items. So any tricks the fighter has beyond a bow and arrows are useless.

The fighter does have the ability to replicate some of the swordsage's tricks, via the Martial Study and Martial Stance feat. But he can only get a small handful that way, he can only use any of them once per fight, and he won't get them until twice the level where the swordsage gets them.

The swordsage, meanwhile, can access almost any of the fighter's tricks. He can't access all of them, since he doesn't have as many feat slots, but that's OK, since he can control which of the tricks are relevant.

Or the swordsage could just not attack at all, and instead burn down the fighter with Desert Sun blasts.

Minor nitpick, Swordsages (for some unfathomable reason) don't have Spot as class skill .

[Gharkash]

I had more in mind Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind than Desert Wind (which i despise) when i asked the question

If i am not mistaken JBQ is a build that uses twf, karmic strike, robilar's and has the notion of " you strike me once, i strike you four times". Not sure though.

So, in general, swordsage wins because of being versatile. That validates my assumption.

Any aditions are welcome.

EDIT: Correct, they can listen well enough to spot invisible foes, but their sight is not that good. Propably they were built with old Asian senseis/sifus as an inspiration:smallbiggrin:

[JadePhoenix]

That depends a lot on builds and levels. I can see a mid-to-high level Fighter winning. He juts needs a flying mount (available through feats such as Dragon Steed, available at 5th level) and a bow. Since Swordsages can't teleport into empty air and have very low ranged support, that should be quite easy, even.

My proposed 6th level Fighter build, using 32 point buy:
Human Fighter 6, Abilities Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14, Skills Ride 9, something else 9 (Swim?), Feats Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus (composite longbow), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization (composite longbow), Dragon Steed.
Considering a masterwork composite longbow, he is attacking at +11/+6 or +9/+9/+4, dealing 1d8+5 damage. That's really low damage, but done at a range the Swordsage can't basically do anything - unless he takes Dragon Steed himself, but then it gets really specific. Fighter Archer on a flying mount is pretty common, but mounted Swordsage is really rare.
At higher levels and without equipment I don't think even the flying mount helps the Fighter. Fighter mounts are squishy enough to be eliminated with Desert Wind's AoE attacks.

[Malachei]

If i am not mistaken JBQ is a build that uses twf, karmic strike, robilar's and has the notion of " you strike me once, i strike you four times". Not sure though.

I linked the build in my post above. I recommend you to take a look at it, I think it is worth it.

[Person_Man]

Points to consider:

You cannot use Immediate Actions while Flat Footed. So no Counters if you lose Initiative, though an Immediate Action Counter or Boost might be useful if you win Initiative or if your opponent misses on their first attack.
Either class could spend just one Feat to take Shape Soulmeld (Rageclaws) for Die Hard with 1 Feat. If you have a point of essentia to invest in it (presumably from your racial choice), then it extends out to -13 hit points. If it's a low level combat, this would probably extend combat to at least 2 rounds.
Either class can access maneuver or stances with the Martial Study and Martial Stance Feats. Since combat is probably only going to last 1 or 2 rounds, how often you can use them is probably immaterial. It won't only matter for the Swordsage if he had access to a higher level maneuver or stance then the Fighter which was somehow decisive. But by the time that's a factor, the Fighter could just as easily kill the Swordsage with a generic Power Attack.
Either class could start by holding a Tower Shield, and then dropping it before their first attack. (Non-proficiency has no impact on your AC). This would give you a +4 AC boost if you failed to win Initiative.


So it basically boils down to pure probability. The Swordsage is still bound by the same action economy as the Fighter. He definitely has more resources and is a higher Tier, but he can't leverage those resources any faster against a single opponent in a combat lasting 1 or 2 rounds. Someone is going to win Initiative, and then make an attack. If you succeed on these rolls, you probably win. If you don't, you will probably lose unless your opponent also fails his attack roll(s). You can quibble over AC vs Initiative vs To-Hit modifiers. But essentially, it doesn't matter which class you use.

[Gharkash]

Does the Shadow Jaunt family of maneuvers not allow you to teleport in the air? Does it have to do with having line of effect? Also the flying mount seems somehow circumstancial.

Person Man, i can't see how you compare martial stance/study feats to actually being an initiator.

[JadePhoenix]

Someone is going to win Initiative, and then make an attack. If you succeed on these rolls, you probably win. If you don't, you will probably lose unless your opponent also fails his attack roll(s). You can quibble over AC vs Initiative vs To-Hit modifiers. But essentially, it doesn't matter which class you use.

I agree with all your points, but the Swordsage has a bigger chance of winning initiative, between Quick to Act and a higher incentive to have a high Dex (light armor, Shadow Blade, etc). Like I said before, I think it depends a lot on strategy and level - and at some levels, Fighter does get the edge.


Does the Shadow Jaunt family of maneuvers not allow you to teleport in the air? Does it have to do with having line of effect? Also the flying mount seems somehow circumstancial.

Actually, I just noticed the Shadow Jaunt line does allow you to teleport into empty air, because it's not a Conjuration school effect.
I don't think it really matters until you get Balance In The Sky (level 8 stance), because you would teleport and fall before acting, anyway.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That depends a lot on builds and levels. I can see a mid-to-high level Fighter winning. He juts needs a flying mount (available through feats such as Dragon Steed, available at 5th level) and a bow. Since Swordsages can't teleport into empty air and have very low ranged support, that should be quite easy, even.

My proposed 6th level Fighter build, using 32 point buy:
Human Fighter 6, Abilities Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 14, Skills Ride 9, something else 9 (Swim?), Feats Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Weapon Focus (composite longbow), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Specialization (composite longbow), Dragon Steed.
Considering a masterwork composite longbow, he is attacking at +11/+6 or +9/+9/+4, dealing 1d8+5 damage. That's really low damage, but done at a range the Swordsage can't basically do anything - unless he takes Dragon Steed himself, but then it gets really specific. Fighter Archer on a flying mount is pretty common, but mounted Swordsage is really rare.
At higher levels and without equipment I don't think even the flying mount helps the Fighter. Fighter mounts are squishy enough to be eliminated with Desert Wind's AoE attacks.

Were does it says you can't teleport into empty space? Shadow Jaunt has no mention of that limitation and both Shadow Stride and Shadow Blink refer to Shadow Jaunt for the base mechanics. Balance on the sky allows for actual flying (though at high level). Leaping flame is a counter that takes you next to you opponent and it has decent range (100 ft.)

[Malachei]

P The Swordsage is still bound by the same action economy as the Fighter. He definitely has more resources and is a higher Tier, but he can't leverage those resources any faster against a single opponent in a combat lasting 1 or 2 rounds. Someone is going to win Initiative, and then make an attack. If you succeed on these rolls, you probably win. If you don't, you will probably lose unless your opponent also fails his attack roll(s). You can quibble over AC vs Initiative vs To-Hit modifiers. But essentially, it doesn't matter which class you use.

I like the points you raised.

On winning initiative: Arguably, they can make AoO while flat-footed (Combat Reflexes). So an AoO-focused fighter (or the SWS, for that matter) with Stand Still and a reach weapon (and perhaps Hold the Line) could stop the enemy.

[Person_Man]

Person Man, i can't see how you compare martial stance/study feats to actually being an initiator.

Because they are functionally the same in this case.

Combat is going to last 1 or 2 rounds. So it doesn't matter how often you can use a maneuver.

Counters and Boosts are rarely linked to your Initiator level.

Strikes are functionally the same as a generic optimized Power Attack (ie, they kill their target if you succeed on an attack roll).

You could argue that the Swordsage would have access to higher level maneuvers and stances then a Fighter who used Feats. And while that's true, by the time it become an issue, the Fighter would have access to optimized Power Attack, and could 1 hit kill the Swordsage (just as the Swordsage could 1 hit kill the Fighter).

So it's a moot point unless you contrived a very specific set of circumstances (ECL, starting position, etc) in the Swordsage's favor.

[tyckspoon]

Points to consider:
[LIST]
Either class could start by holding a Tower Shield, and then dropping it before their first attack. (Non-proficiency has no impact on your AC). This would give you a +4 AC boost if you failed to win Initiative.


It does, however, affect your initiative- nonproficiency with a shield penalizes all Dex and Str-based ability checks. A Swordsage holding a Tower Shield is effectively conceding initiative and hoping the shield bonus is sufficient to prevent harm. (Which it might be at level 1. Go much higher and you start facing pretty good chances the Fighter has picked up some method of making a Touch Attack at least once.)


Does the Shadow Jaunt family of maneuvers not allow you to teleport in the air? Does it have to do with having line of effect? Also the flying mount seems somehow circumstancial.


General rules on Conjurations; you can't create something/move something to a surface that does not support it, so no teleporting into the air unless you have some means of not immediately falling (also there is, ruleswise, no time for you to make an attack or do anything even if you could warp yourself up there; you just fall right away. All you'd achieve is inflicting xd6 falling damage on yourself and making yourself look dumb.)

[Emperor Tippy]

General rules on Conjurations; you can't create something/move something to a surface that does not support it, so no teleporting into the air unless you have some means of not immediately falling (also there is, ruleswise, no time for you to make an attack or do anything even if you could warp yourself up there; you just fall right away. All you'd achieve is inflicting xd6 falling damage on yourself and making yourself look dumb.)

You would be wrong. That only applies if you are teleporting (or calling) a creature to your location. It does not apply if you move yourself or, theoretically, teleported another entity from your location to another destination.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

It also doesn't apply to the Shadow Jaunt line because of the bolded part in the above quote. The maneuvers are not spells and are not from the conjuration school.

[JadePhoenix]

You would be wrong. That only applies if you are teleporting (or calling) a creature to your location. It does not apply if you move yourself or, theoretically, teleported another entity from your location to another destination.
Not really. If you are teleporting yourself, you're teleporting yourself to your (new) location. The rule still applies.



It also doesn't apply to the Shadow Jaunt line because of the bolded part in the above quote. The maneuvers are not spells and are not from the conjuration school.
I mentioned this in my previous edit, yeah. You'd still only manage to suffer falling damage without Balance In The Sky, though.

[Starbuck_II]

Points to consider:
You cannot use Immediate Actions while Flat Footed. So no Counters if you lose Initiative, though an Immediate Action Counter or Boost might be useful if you win Initiative or if your opponent misses on their first attack. .

Two levels in Scout prevents flat foot status. There is no debate, that is what it says for level 2 scout (compare Uncany Dodge of Rogue vs Scout, different text).
So Swordsage 17/Scout 2/Swordsage 1 is best or some combo like that.

[JadePhoenix]

Two levels in Scout prevents flat foot status. There is no debate, that is what it says for level 2 scout (compare Uncany Dodge of Rogue vs Scout, different text).
So Swordsage 17/Scout 2/Swordsage 1 is best or some combo like that.

The OP specified single-classed characters.

[Emperor Tippy]

Not really. If you are teleporting yourself, you're teleporting yourself to your (new) location. The rule still applies.
Nope, such things are only checked on casting the spell. It's a valid location at the time of casting (you not being at your arrival destination when you cast the spell).


I mentioned this in my previous edit, yeah. You'd still only manage to suffer falling damage without Balance In The Sky, though.
True.

[Starbuck_II]

No, he said, "Assuming both have most of their class levels in their main class"

I'm sure 18 levels is most of 20 levels.:smallbiggrin:

[JadePhoenix]

No, he said, "Assuming both have most of their class levels in their main class"

I'm sure 18 levels is most of 20 levels.:smallbiggrin:

Then the Fighter is a Fighter 15/Barbarian 1/Frenzied Berserker 4.
I'm sure 15 levels is most of 20 levels. :smallbiggrin:
This discussion is hard as it is without including multiclassed characters into the mix. With Deathless Frenzy under it's belt, the Fighter will exhaust the Swordsage's maneuvers and kill him with a charge. Or he'll be an Archer Fighter with a mount, as mentioned before, except he can't die from hit point damage.
I say stick to single-classed characters, else it's not about Swordsage vs Fighter anymore.

[Emperor Tippy]

And the Swordsage can be a Dark Grey Elf Factotum 4/Swordsage 16 with maxed Hide and Move Silently ranks, maxed Int, craven, and a few copies of Font of Inspiration.

The Swordsage hides and the fighter will never be able to find him (he is actually incapable of beating the swordsages Hide and Move silently checks even with max ranks in Spot and Listen.

[Gharkash]

Is there an actual rule that refrains you from attacking in mid air?

EDIT: to keep it simple assume the race is human, and that one can make one dip or take one prc, not more.

[Person_Man]

Two levels in Scout prevents flat foot status. There is no debate, that is what it says for level 2 scout (compare Uncany Dodge of Rogue vs Scout, different text).
So Swordsage 17/Scout 2/Swordsage 1 is best or some combo like that.

I'm assuming you're talking about Uncanny Dodge, which can be had for the low cost of 1 Feat (Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots). However, Uncanny Dodge does not allow you to use Immediate Actions when you are Flat Footed.

From the SRD:


Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.


Uncanny Dodge (Ex)

At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Note that even with Uncanny Dodge, you still count as Flat Footed. You just retain your Dexterity bonus to AC. You can't even make Attacks of Opportunity unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat. Thus, you cannot take Immediate Actions until you act on the first round of combat.

On a related note, this is the only way to beat most spell casters at higher levels (assuming that they're not using Contingency spells or other similar triggered effects which require no action).

[JadePhoenix]

Is there an actual rule that refrains you from attacking in mid air?
None, except as soon as you teleport into empty air, you fall.


EDIT: to keep it simple assume the race is human, and that one can make one dip or take one prc, not more.
That's hardly keeping it simple. :smallsigh:
I could make a Fighter/Wizard/Abjurant Champion, under your restrictions.

[Emperor Tippy]

Again, Factotum 4/Swordsage 16.

Unless the fighter has used feats/his dip to make them class skills and maxed them then he isn't going to beat the Swordsages Hide and Move Silently checks.

[JadePhoenix]

Again, Factotum 4/Swordsage 16.

Unless the fighter has used feats/his dip to make them class skills and maxed them then he isn't going to beat the Swordsages Hide and Move Silently checks.

This goes on forever. Once you start using options outside Fighter/Swordsage, it becomes unpredictable.
The Fighter/Wizard/Abjurant Champion could just glitterdust you out of hiding adter locating you through polymorphing into a creature with tremorsense or something like this.
Those solutions have nothing to do with Fighter vs Swordsage, though.
What I meant with my previous Frenzied Berserker example and this Abjurant Champion one is that the exercise loses whatever little meaning it had once multiclassing is allowed.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm assuming you're talking about Uncanny Dodge, which can be had for the low cost of 1 Feat (Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots). However, Uncanny Dodge does not allow you to use Immediate Actions when you are Flat Footed.

Note that even with Uncanny Dodge, you still count as Flat Footed. You just retain your Dexterity bonus to AC. You can't even make Attacks of Opportunity unless you have the Combat Reflexes feat. Thus, you cannot take Immediate Actions until you act on the first round of combat.

On a related note, this is the only way to beat most spell casters at higher levels (assuming that they're not using Contingency spells or other similar triggered effects which require no action).

Again, quote the class I mentioned Scout: Plesase, it has different text. Not the same.
Don't assume that one class feature works esactly like any other.
It says and I quote (since can't write whole thing):
Scout
Starting at 2nd level, a Scout cannot be caught flatfoot and reacts to danger before he senses allow her to do so.

Barbarian and Rogue say: At 2nd level (3rd for rogue), a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

Which of these if the same? Rogue and Barbarian? Not Scout? Yes.
So Scout isn't the same. Scouts cannot be flatfoot.

Barbarians can be caught flatfoot, but retain Dex. Scouts? Never flatfoot.

[Malachei]

This goes on forever. Once you start using options outside Fighter/Swordsage, it becomes unpredictable.
The Fighter/Wizard/Abjurant Champion could just glitterdust you out of hiding adter locating you through polymorphing into a creature with tremorsense or something like this.
Those solutions have nothing to do with Fighter vs Swordsage, though.
What I meant with my previous Frenzied Berserker example and this Abjurant Champion one is that the exercise loses whatever little meaning it had once multiclassing is allowed.

I completely agree. Either it is straight SWS versus straight FTR, or this discussion will lead straight into nowhereland. We even have no level specified!

[MukkTB]

Ok Level 6, pure Fighter VS pure Swordsage. All official content allowed. They both start in a tropical jungle near a lake. In that jungle is a temple. In that temple is a golden artifact. The jungle is inhabited by hostile primitives. The temple is inhabited by monsters put there by the bloodthirsty priests and nasty traps. The goal is to get the idol before the other guy. (Killing the other guy is legal.)

The primitives are lvl 1 human warriors wearing no armor carrying javelins. They attack in groups of 8 or more.

The monsters are housed in rooms designed for their benefit. A water monster would be in a pool for example. None are above CR 4.

CR 4 or less Traps exist throughout the temple. If the artifact is removed. The temple self destructs.

Both characters have appropriate WBL. Both characters at least suspect the other will be there. Who wins?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Now that is a proper challenge, I would say the versatility of the Swordsage definitely gives him edge, he can detect and avoid most of the encounters (the primitives would have what about +3 or +4 on their stealth skills and similar on their detection ones so the the swordsage can merrily go on his way.

Traps on the other hand are a bit more difficult, though he can get trapfinding with Catalogues of enlightment keyed to the Kobold domain, though we wouldn't have search or Disable device maxed as they are cross class skills until he takes the feat at level 6.

Monsters, well as a martial class he can deal with them easilly unless the action economy is trule against him, I'd say he could take up to 2 monsters at a time without being screwed, more monsters are definitely trouble (thought this applies to the fighter too.)

[Clawhound]

Ok Level 6, pure Fighter VS pure Swordsage. All official content allowed. They both start in a tropical jungle near a lake. In that jungle is a temple. In that temple is a golden artifact. The jungle is inhabited by hostile primitives. The temple is inhabited by monsters put there by the bloodthirsty priests and nasty traps. The goal is to get the idol before the other guy. (Killing the other guy is legal.)

The primitives are lvl 1 human warriors wearing no armor carrying javelins. They attack in groups of 8 or more.

The monsters are housed in rooms designed for their benefit. A water monster would be in a pool for example. None are above CR 4.

CR 4 or less Traps exist throughout the temple. If the artifact is removed. The temple self destructs.

Both characters have appropriate WBL. Both characters at least suspect the other will be there. Who wins?

I like the appropriate CR for the encounter.

Both characters should get basic gp in equipment.

I think that both are capable of reaching the treasure. I think that the swordsage will have an easier time of it, but standard wealth should be able to cover all the potions that a fighter might need. Nothing amazing there.

Depending on the traps, a fighter might be able to figure his way round them, or suspect them and trigger them. "It's trapped" is a very safe assumption. An experienced old-school player with a fighter knows how to handle traps that he doesn't know about.

In the man-to-man fight, I would put the swordsage in front simply because he can nova while the fighter can't.

[Gharkash]

I had a more abstract comparison in mind, but i guess more specific approaches do reflect a broader image as well.

Are there rules for falling per round, and what actions you can take while falling?

It may be because of bad wording, i meant one prc OR one dip/multiclass. Also fighter/wizard/abjurant champion is a gish, not a fighter.

[Draz74]

Ok Level 6, pure Fighter VS pure Swordsage. All official content allowed. They both start in a tropical jungle near a lake. In that jungle is a temple. In that temple is a golden artifact. The jungle is inhabited by hostile primitives. The temple is inhabited by monsters put there by the bloodthirsty priests and nasty traps. The goal is to get the idol before the other guy. (Killing the other guy is legal.)

The primitives are lvl 1 human warriors wearing no armor carrying javelins. They attack in groups of 8 or more.

The monsters are housed in rooms designed for their benefit. A water monster would be in a pool for example. None are above CR 4.

CR 4 or less Traps exist throughout the temple. If the artifact is removed. The temple self destructs.

Both characters have appropriate WBL. Both characters at least suspect the other will be there. Who wins?

If Incarnum sources are allowed, the Fighter can have a big advantage by being an Azurin and picking up Theft Gloves and Open Least Chakra. The Swordsage can do this too, but he'll end up very feat-starved.

On the other hand, the Swordsage has a major advantage when it comes to saves. Most traps target Reflex saves or AC (and I assume AC will be more or less equal for the two characters). The Swordsage has good Reflex; the Fighter doesn't. Hmmm, I guess the Fighter could spend another two feats to basically fix that: Martial Study (Action Before Thought) at Level 6, plus another Diamond Mind Martial Study to get Concentration as a class skill from Level 2.

Is it worth it for the fighter to spend four feats on beating traps, when the Swordsage might just come and kill him? I doubt it. But the fact that I'm even considering it shows that the Swordsage is definitely the better of the two characters for dynamic dungeon-raiding.

[JadePhoenix]

The archer fighter with a dragonne build I presented earlier would simply fly into the temple, avoiding all savages and some traps. Inside, he'd find a depleted Swordsage and shoot him to death.
Yeah, I think I'm with the Fighter on this one.

[INoKnowNames]

If you don't mind me asking, what exactly prevents a Swordsage from being able to fight mounted? There's certainly jack stoping them from doing ranged combat; there are plenty of maneuvers that can be used for that kind of thing. I'm just curious about the mounted thing. Maybe being feat starved.

Also, how does a Dragon fly into a Temple? Maybe breaking the thing open, which lacks a bit of finesse....

Eitherway, assuming the item gained in the temple doesn't grant autowin, what's stoping the swordsage from ambushing the fighter after he's done battering ramming into the temple? And how does the fighter even detect the swordsage, who at least has the skills to hide inside?

Even if it's granted by feats, I'd still say that using cohorts/companions or whatever is about as much bad for this kind of competition as it is to multiclass. How much of your win is actually yours, rather than your npc buddy's?

[Eldariel]

Archer Fighter probably gives SS the best run for his money TBH since that's the one advantage Fighter has over SS. Dungeoncrasher isn't worth much nor is Trip and SS has access to Roots of the Mountain as a 3rd level Stance which is a pretty hefty buff against any combat maneuvers.

Also, touch attacks aren't trivial to land with Swordsage's access to maneuvers that defend with alternative checks instead (e.g. Baffling Defense).


That said, Fighter has things going on for them. First and foremost, Zhentarim Fighter of course poses a very serious threat of Imperious Command, and we should assume that's on the table. It is countered by Wisdom but unless actually immune to Intimidate somehow, Swordsage will probably be at risk.

Fighter also makes a superior Archer than SS with Targeteer, Ranged Weapon Mastery, full BAB and so on; even with Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose, the medium BAB and lack of easy bonuses will have a hard time to keep up.

In melee, Fighter is unquestionably on the backfoot; Swordsage has an expansive array of tricks including Fool's Strike which can one-shot a charging Fighter fairly easily, or Counter Charge which can negate said charge with equal ease (even on the first round, Stance of Alacrity makes these defenses available). He also has defenses against combat maneuvers and a rather versatile suite of offense with Mountain Tombstone Strike, One with Shadow, Time Stands Still, Dazing Blow, Swooping Dragon Strike and of course, possible Desert Wind ranged capabilities (though far inferior to a properly built archer). Swordsage is naturally way more mobile too; things like Bounding Assault, Pouncing Charge, Quicksilver Motion, Shadow Blink & co. give SS very impressive mobility. Also, melee Fighter's capabilities are all but negated by Elusive Target while no such shutdown button exists for a Swordsage's bag of tricks.

All in all, I wouldn't say Fighter is entirely FUBAR'd; Targeteer can put some decent numbers in ranged combat which is very much not Swordsage's forté and Intimidate can be an ace in the hole. However, Swordsage should still be a heavy, heavy favorite. Let us not forget that Swordsages have access to Hide too which can be quite potent against a Fighter with no sensory skills to speak of, especially with Darkstalker, and that Fighter needs to win initiative to do anything while Swordsage still has game even losing Initiative.

[MukkTB]

To clarify the contest leadership is banned. Also the temple has some underground components. Flying around in it would be somewhere between hard and impossible. The jungle itself is pretty thick so trying to fly through that while not above the canopy will be hard.

[Aegis013]

In the currently described situation, I think it's really anybody's game. A single mistake could trigger a trap that could immediately shift the challenge in favor of one party or the other. I would honestly suspect the Swordsage to have the better chance, but largely based on his/her higher tier. Not to say the Fighter doesn't stand a pretty reasonable chance of winning.

[Malachei]

I'd say for comparing classes, we should leave environment out of the picture, and we should try to eliminate everything that is not class-based, unless we absolutely have to keep it in for the class to work.

For instance, if we include magic items, then actually the winner (apart from initiative) might depend on who has looked up the best items in the Magic Item Compendium.

If we include races, then racial choice will have an impact, but that will tell us little about Ftr vs. Sws.

So I'd say compare the chassis: Mw weapons, but no magic items, same race.

Assuming both are human, the Fighter gets four more feats, and his BAB of +6 means he qualifies for tactical feats. The Swordsage has only 4 feats, which is a bit of an issue (for instance, if the Fighter takes Improved Initiative, and the SWS does not, then the Fighter's Initiative may be on par or slightly better than that of the SWS).

Still, the SWS gets 6 readied maneuvers, two of which are 3rd level. Bonecrusher adds an average of 14 to normal damage, and Insightful Strike deals an average of 21.5 on a hit (maxed Concentration, +2 Con). Distracting Ember with Assassin's Stance would net +7 damage. So if she hits, the Swordsage will cause damage in the range of 15-24 points (Spiked Chain (5) + Shadow Blade (+3 Dex) + occasional Discipline Focus (+2 Wis) + maneuver's add-on). And if the takes Strength-Draining Strike (DC 15 at Wis +2) instead of one of the other 3rd level maneuvers and hits, the Fighter will have a 65% chance to make the save (+5 base Fort save, +2 Con). If he fails, he suffers 4 Str damage, which could have a big impact.

Overall, the Swordsage's main problem would be hitting the fighter, who could use full Combat Expertise to reduce average damage taken and achieve an AC in the range of 24 (again, without magic). Swordsage would use Emerald Razor and have an easy hit once (this assumes Swordsage does not use a full round to recover maneuvers), which, due to the Fighter's low touch AC, delivers good average damage.

Against the Swordsage's Assassin's Stance with Cloak of Deception, the Fighter would have Blind-Fight (SWS could still use Diamond Nightmare Blade).

Against a tripping build, the Swordsage could have Nimble Stand to get up from prone without taking AoO, and Roots of the Mountain as Eldariel has pointed out.

So I'd say as usual, the one who goes first has a much higher chance of winning, but if we ignore initiative for a moment, the average damage output is not that far off.

Finally, I think it takes more effort to build a fighter who can match the Swordsage, whereas the Swordsage build can be pretty straightforward "out of the box".

Therefore, I'd say the Swordsage is in a better overall position of winning such a fight.

[Person_Man]

Barbarians can be caught flatfoot, but retain Dex. Scouts? Never flatfoot.

Having reread the description, I concede the point on RAW to you, good sir.

But I think that's the result of sloppy editing, and not a specific desire to allow Scouts to be able to use Immediate Actions prior to their turn in the Initiative order. The first sentence states that a scout cannot be caught flat footed, but the second sentence says "See the barbarian class feature, pg 26 of the Player's Handbook." So it's contradictory.

If it's a different class ability, why reference the Barbarian's Uncanny Dodge? Why not just call it something different?

[Malachei]

Having reread the description, I concede the point on RAW to you, good sir.

But I think that's the result of sloppy editing, and not a specific desire to allow Scouts to be able to use Immediate Actions prior to their turn in the Initiative order. The first sentence states that a scout cannot be caught flat footed, but the second sentence says "See the barbarian class feature, pg 26 of the Player's Handbook." So it's contradictory.

If it's a different class ability, why reference the Barbarian's Uncanny Dodge? Why not just call it something different?

I completely agree. The problems with RAW are the same as with legislative texts. Depending on which school you adhere, you'd either (a) apply the law in its spirit or (b) apply the law to the letter.

Each has its advantages and still can lead down a one-way-street.

[JadePhoenix]

Therefore, I'd say the Swordsage is in a better overall position of winning such a fight.

I agree with all your points. Well done, sir.

[rweird]

Would anyone be interested in heading over to the PbP section of the forum and fighter V.S. swordsage? If so, I volunteer to DM for the fights.

[Gharkash]

Would anyone be interested in heading over to the PbP section of the forum and fighter V.S. swordsage? If so, I volunteer to DM for the fights.

Dis sounds interesting, moar info on dat pls.

[Spuddles]

General rules on Conjurations; you can't create something/move something to a surface that does not support it, so no teleporting into the air unless you have some means of not immediately falling (also there is, ruleswise, no time for you to make an attack or do anything even if you could warp yourself up there; you just fall right away. All you'd achieve is inflicting xd6 falling damage on yourself and making yourself look dumb.)

Well the fighter would get an AoO on the swordsage as he fell past him. Then the swordsage uses feigned opening to grapple the fighter.

That is, with Shadow Jaunt. Shadow Stride or Shadow Blink lets the swordsage use something like Mighty Throw or Time Stands Still or something else sweet.

Swordsage should probably pick up elusive target ASAP, to negate PA damage.

[Zonugal]

Ok Level 6, pure Fighter VS pure Swordsage. All official content allowed. They both start in a tropical jungle near a lake. In that jungle is a temple. In that temple is a golden artifact. The jungle is inhabited by hostile primitives. The temple is inhabited by monsters put there by the bloodthirsty priests and nasty traps. The goal is to get the idol before the other guy. (Killing the other guy is legal.)

The primitives are lvl 1 human warriors wearing no armor carrying javelins. They attack in groups of 8 or more.

The monsters are housed in rooms designed for their benefit. A water monster would be in a pool for example. None are above CR 4.

CR 4 or less Traps exist throughout the temple. If the artifact is removed. The temple self destructs.

Both characters have appropriate WBL. Both characters at least suspect the other will be there. Who wins?

What do you mean by official content? Does that open up dragon magazine & such?

[Malachei]

Dragon magazine is not official content.

[Xodion]

I have an irrational dislike of ToB for no good reasons I can think of, so I want to back the Fighter, but I'm with Person_Man - it could basically go either way, and I don't think either class has enough of an advantage to win a single short combat easily.

Building Fighters and Swordsages and pitting them against one another sounds like it could be fun, perhaps wth different levels of purity - single class or not, equipment or not, etc.

[Rubik]

Dragon magazine is not official content.Officially it is official. But unofficially it's not.

[Zonugal]

Dang, that means Targetteer is out...

[rweird]

I made a topic for this, I would be willing to diversify more, though I wanted to start it just with this topic's restrictions.

Recruitment Topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13104043#post13104043)

[Phaederkiel]

what would tareteer do?


And then, in case of the usual featureless plain, there is again the issue of Mounted combat.

even a lvl 1 human fighter could have Improved Initiative, Mounted combat and Ride-by attack. Add a Horse and a masterwork lance, and the Swordsage might well have problems even reaching the fighter during his charges.

With a similar (albeit barbarian) built I defeated a lvl 3 party of wizard, cleric, fighter and rogue 2 times of 3.

In the early game, the ability to walk far is something which is not to be underestimated.


the other thing which could let the fighter win is indeed combat expertise. It is a one feat investment, but plus seven (with full defense) Ac is quite big when one has a bab of four. When the swordsage is stupid, he might just lose all his maneuvers to mr. nigh-unhittable Sword-and-board.

Question to the learned, though: can I even apply combat expertise and full defense if I am not yet fighting? I'd like to stay in it all the time, a poor man's stance...


in the dungeon chellenge, by the way, the swordsage could and should use the stance that gives spiderclimb. not many dungeons have traps against people that walk on the ceiling/walls.

[Zonugal]

what would targetteer do?

It opens up Hide & Move Silently as class skills in addition to some rather nice "special abilities."

[sonofzeal]

Dragon magazine is not official content.
Dragon magazine is official content. It's produced by WotC themselves. Everything that goes into it is WotC-approved. It's just as official as the Web Enhancements, or the published books.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the problem:

The Fighter has only one method of harming anyone: hitting them.

The Swordsage can easily negate this. Baffling Defense + Shifting Defense. You swing, you miss, I move out of your reach so you can't hit me any more this turn.

Furthermore, the Swordsage has another method of being immune to charging. It's the feat Elusive Target. Negates the bonus damage from Power Attack. Shuts down uberchargers flat. Doesn't require an action, either.

Swordsage can also, without equipment, Airwalk, teleport as a Swift action, Pounce, get two rounds worth of attacks as a full round action, gain four bonus attacks in a full attack progression, gain Blindsense, and dish out hundreds of damage with a single maneuver. Or just start dishing out 2d6 Con damage until the Fighter falls over.

Setting Sun also has methods of preventing being tripped, or of tripping your opponent who isn't supposed to be vulnerable to be tripping if he failed to trip. It also has methods of throwing your opponent, not only causing damage, but forcing him Prone.

In short, Fighter doesn't stand a hell of a chance. That's why Fighter is considered to be a Tier 5-6 class, and Swordsage is Tier 3.

[Gavinfoxx]

How well would a...


Zhentarim Soldier, Thug, Skilled City Dweller (Ride for Tumble), Dungeon Crusher, Exoticist, Hit and Run, Physical Prowess Fighter do in this?

[Gharkash]

Can you actually get all these ACF in one character?

[Gavinfoxx]

I think maybe one or two don't normally stack... maybe?

[Gharkash]

I do not have the faintest idea.

[Gharkash]

I have an irrational dislike of ToB for no good reasons I can think of

I would like to make a topic about that but the sheer thought of the hate in the comments stops me.

[Dusk Eclipse]

At least Thug and Hit and Run are mutually exclusive as both of them trade Heavy armour proficiency...though personally I would allow them to be used together.

[Zonugal]

How well would a...


Zhentarim Soldier, Thug, Skilled City Dweller (Ride for Tumble), Dungeon Crusher, Exoticist, Hit and Run, Physical Prowess Fighter do in this?

Thug and Hit & Run can't be used together.

Skilled City Dweller (Ride for Tumble) pretty much means you are giving up medium-heavy armor because of the ACP.

But a Zhentarim, Dungeon Crashing, Physical Prowess Fighter is a juggernaut in combat.

The only problem is if the Swordsage takes Shape Soulmeld (Shedu Crown) they have blanket immunity to bull rushing so...

[Gavinfoxx]

So what is best for this challenge? Thug or Hit and Run? Also, are any of the Dragon Magazine 310 options useful? That's where Targeteer or Exoticist is...

[INoKnowNames]

Ultimately, it seems like the Tierlist is pretty accurate on this one. The Fighter is a high Tier 5 / low Tier 4 (with the right options added to it), meaning that it is actually capable of doing at least it's job, but struggles abit when that job isn't needed. Not completely impossible, but still doesn't have quite so many options. And the Swordsage, being a solid tier 3, is capable of doing multiple different things, having quite a few options available to it. It doesn't have quite as many blocks as the Fighter, and thus has slightly better chances than it's opponent in a fight or adventure, even if it's notan outright perfect chance. The Swordsage is still favored, but it's not as unbalanced as, say, a Fighter vs a Wizard.

Seems legit.

[MeeposFire]

Dragon magazine is official content. It's produced by WotC themselves. Everything that goes into it is WotC-approved. It's just as official as the Web Enhancements, or the published books.

Actually it wasn't at least not really. Paizo made the content and it was licensed out by WotC. There are a number of reasons why the old OP board did not use dragon content in general and that was one of them (that and it was often terrible and some of the worst balanced stuff in 3e which says something). Back then Dragon was considered not "official" but slightly ahead of most 3rd party.

Back to the conversation the unfortunate part of a conversation about fighters is that you have to talk about a specific build due to how their class works. There is no "generic" fighter. I like lockdown personally as it is one of the few fighter builds that is very good and is actually helped by being mostly to all fighter.

[Malachei]

Dragon magazine is not official content, because it is not issued by the publisher.

If I publish a periodical based on the Open Gaming license, it does not make my magazine official content.



I like lockdown personally as it is one of the few fighter builds that is very good and is actually helped by being mostly to all fighter.

I really like lockdown builds, but I'm not sure it would actually increase the fighter's chance to beat the Swordsage (for the moment, let us assume without taking Thicket of Blades, but even with Thicket of Blades, as long as both have the same reach, there is not much 5-ft-stepping inside the fighter's threatened area).

[olentu]

Dragon magazine is not official content, because it is not issued by the publisher.

If I publish a periodical based on the Open Gaming license, it does not make my magazine official content.

Ah but the question is does the company that owns the system get to decide what is official content.

[Xodion]

Here's the problem:

The Fighter has only one method of harming anyone: hitting them.

The Swordsage can easily negate this. Baffling Defense + Shifting Defense. You swing, you miss, I move out of your reach so you can't hit me any more this turn.

Furthermore, the Swordsage has another method of being immune to charging. It's the feat Elusive Target. Negates the bonus damage from Power Attack. Shuts down uberchargers flat. Doesn't require an action, either.

I agree that the Swordsage can do all of this and more, but so can the Fighter - they can take Elusive Target, and Improved Combat Expertise means you are unlikely to hit them when it's active. Hence the point that neither has a significant enough advantage. They are both classes based on hitting people, and both have access to enough crazy stuff to make this difficult, as there are a lot of feats out there. Anyway, to the recruitment thread! *scene transition effects*

[SSGoW]

I agree that the Swordsage can do all of this and more, but so can the Fighter - they can take Elusive Target, and Improved Combat Expertise means you are unlikely to hit them when it's active. Hence the point that neither has a significant enough advantage. They are both classes based on hitting people, and both have access to enough crazy stuff to make this difficult, as there are a lot of feats out there. Anyway, to the recruitment thread! *scene transition effects*

I like how this thread is about the Fighter (tank/striker) vs Swordsage (sneak/striker). Although the Swordsage may belong on the front lines, it is more of a hit and run kind of class... Or just not be on the front line :p (Desert Wind maneuver that lets you shoot a fricken fire dragon :D )

How about putting Mr Fighter up against another class that was created for the same role in the party?

Fighter versus Crusader? (Which is what the Paladin should have been)
Fighter versus Warblade? (which really is what the fighter should have been in the first place... But with all of the fighter's bonus feats).

When the Fighter is put up against the Front Line/Tanking classes he doesn't stand a chance. Well I'll give him a small chance against the Warblade, however that is because I like the idea of the fighter (though better and more feats would be great).

I'm not keen on the Fighter taking ToB feats since that is like saying he has to use the opponent's methods of winning or else he can't win. Well at least the feats that grant maneuvers.

[JadePhoenix]

Ah but the question is does the company that owns the system get to decide what is official content.

Of course it does.
And Dragon Magazine was stated as official content by Wizards of the Coast.

[Gharkash]

SSGoW, i started this thread as an "experiment", and i pitched the fighter against a "weak" ToB class on purpose. Weak refering to bab and hd and the general hit and run builds of it (i play a strength based 2h SS). It still seems interesting to throw these two in an arena and see what comes out of it.

[Lord_Gareth]

I agree that the Swordsage can do all of this and more, but so can the Fighter - they can take Elusive Target, and Improved Combat Expertise means you are unlikely to hit them when it's active. Hence the point that neither has a significant enough advantage. They are both classes based on hitting people, and both have access to enough crazy stuff to make this difficult, as there are a lot of feats out there. Anyway, to the recruitment thread! *scene transition effects*

The fighter CAN do all that stuff, but every feat he takes to that end is a feat he's not taking to kill the Swordsage, whereas the Swordsage can stack up on both offensive and defensive maneuvers and still have room to spend his feats however he likes.

Additionally, Emerald Razor. All your AC are belong to us.

[peacenlove]

I'm tempted to say Swordsage. Because of the mobility, ranged attacks and condition-incurring maneuvers.

But, in a melee, would the Swordsage stand against Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick)?

Yes (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29817275/Douse%20the%20Flames) he can. (also note that there is a maneuver that blocks AoO for 3 rounds but a swordsage would not take it)

Many maneuvers are anti-melee. The entire Setting sun revolves (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29807283/Ghostly%20Defense) around this theme.
If a fighter uses archery then Swordsage surprises (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29738808/Leaping%20Flame) him and doesn't let him go (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29807505/Mirrored%20Pursuit).

[JadePhoenix]

Yes (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29817275/Douse%20the%20Flames) he can. (also note that there is a maneuver that blocks AoO for 3 rounds but a swordsage would not take it)

Many maneuvers are anti-melee. The entire Setting sun revolves (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29807283/Ghostly%20Defense) around this theme.
If a fighter uses archery then Swordsage surprises (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29738808/Leaping%20Flame) him and doesn't let him go (http://kahdnd.pbworks.com/w/page/29807505/Mirrored%20Pursuit).

Both maneuvers are useless against an archer on a flying mount unless you have Balance In The Sky and there is a 9 level gap between Dragon Steed and Balance In The Sky being available.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the thing...

People who believe ToB is imba and OP are going to point to this thread as evidence supporting their theory.

In reality, ANY base PhB class can kick a Fighter's rear in combat. It's really not that difficult.

Barbarian: I have Pounce, Whirling Frenzy, and a higher BAB. At level 1, I kick your arse because I hit twice as frequently, harder with every hit, and have more hit points. As the game progresses, this gap only extends.

Bard: DFI. Set, game, and match.

Cleric... Clericzilla and beat him at his own shtick. Assuming I don't use any of a number of other reality-shattering builds. There's a reason this class is T1

Druid... see previous entry, replacing ClericZilla with Wildshape

Monk... is the only one who would be close in this contest, mostly because he has no means of closing and landing a blow, with his Flurry of Misses. However, the Fighter is also unable to hit him, so they're about even. It'll be a long, drawn out match.

Ranger. Let's not even get into Mystic, or any of the other things... just a straight Ranger is going to kick a Fighter's arse, because the Fighter won't be able to FIND him. Snipe and move, snipe and move. High Hide and Move Silently skills keep the Fighter guessing where the next shot is going to come from. Heck, he gets his own HiPS to make it literally impossible for the Fighter to find him.

Paladin. This will be another close fight, but the Paladin can self-heal, and the Fighter can't. Also, divine feats let him do something useful with his turn attempts, Battle Blessing to cast swift action buffs, and let's not forget the Draconic variant of the Steed.

Rogue. Again, Fighter will never be able to find him, like with the Ranger, but now can toss sneak attack into his sniping.

Sorcerer/Wizard... come on, do I really need to?

In short, yes a Swordsage can kick a Fighter's arse. Not because ToB is imba, but because it really isn't that difficult a challenge.

[Eldariel]

Monk... is the only one who would be close in this contest, mostly because he has no means of closing and landing a blow, with his Flurry of Misses. However, the Fighter is also unable to hit him, so they're about even. It'll be a long, drawn out match.

How is a Fighter unable to hit a Monk? Monk's AC sucks, Fighter has no trouble raising their To Hit and frankly, the Zhentarim Intimidate spam is fairly efficient against any melee type. Also, stuff like Trips and Bull Rushes are efficient against Monk.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How is a Fighter unable to hit a Monk? Monk's AC sucks, Fighter has no trouble raising their To Hit and frankly, the Zhentarim Intimidate spam is fairly efficient against any melee type. Also, stuff like Trips and Bull Rushes are efficient against Monk.

Monk will have a high enough Wisdom to counter Intimidate spam, trips and bull rushes work better on a Fighter than on a Monk. Heck, best way for the Monk to win is to use his Improved Grapple and just keep the Fighter pinned down and do pathetic damage every round, preventing his opponent from taking any actions.

[Zonugal]

Barbarian: I have Pounce, Whirling Frenzy, and a higher BAB. At level 1, I kick your arse because I hit twice as frequently, harder with every hit, and have more hit points. As the game progresses, this gap only extends.

Come again???

[Terazul]

Come again???
I think he means higher attack bonus from the rage, rather than actual BAB.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think he means higher attack bonus from the rage, rather than actual BAB.

Your pardon, you are correct, higher TAB, not BAB.

[Eldariel]

Monk will have a high enough Wisdom to counter Intimidate spam, trips and bull rushes work better on a Fighter than on a Monk. Heck, best way for the Monk to win is to use his Improved Grapple and just keep the Fighter pinned down and do pathetic damage every round, preventing his opponent from taking any actions.

...you made Takahashi, you out of all the people should know that some Wisdom doesn't do a whole lot to properly optimized Intimidate spam (if we're talking about Wis Max class like Druid or Cleric, maybe, but ~14-16 Wis on Monk? Not a chance), and Zhentarim even gets Skill Focus for free. Also, Fighter has more BAB and more Strength more than likely; Improved Grapple isn't the most reliable, especially without Pounce. Not as bad as vs. Barbarian but pretty bad, especially if Fighter has Close-Quarters Fighting or whatever. You're talking about MONK for crying out loud.

His very problem is that unless gives up all his defensive stats, his offense is trash and even if he focuses on it, his offense is nothing

And again, probably higher Strength is going to make Trips and Bull Rushes better for the Fighter, not to mention he has access to Dungeoncrasher so his Bull Rushes are actually relevant (GL stopping a Knockback Shock Trooper Dungeoncrasher Fighter's Bull Rush for instance).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

...you made Takahashi, you out of all the people should know that some Wisdom doesn't do a whole lot to properly optimized Intimidate spam (if we're talking about Wis Max class like Druid or Cleric, maybe, but ~14-16 Wis on Monk? Not a chance), and Zhentarim even gets Skill Focus for free. Also, Fighter has more BAB and more Strength more than likely; Improved Grapple isn't the most reliable, especially without Pounce. Not as bad as vs. Barbarian but pretty bad, especially if Fighter has Close-Quarters Fighting or whatever. You're talking about MONK for crying out loud.

His very problem is that unless gives up all his defensive stats, his offense is trash and even if he focuses on it, his offense is nothing

And again, probably higher Strength is going to make Trips and Bull Rushes better for the Fighter, not to mention he has access to Dungeoncrasher so his Bull Rushes are actually relevant (GL stopping a Knockback Shock Trooper Dungeoncrasher Fighter's Bull Rush for instance).

You make valid points.

There's ways to negate bull rush, (blow a feat on Shedu Crown, for example), but now we're blowing a bunch of feats on negating things (Elusive Target to prevent Ubercharge, Shedu Crown to prevent bull rush), and I'm not sure if the Monk has the feats available to cover all his bases adequately, and still be able to apply anything relevant.

As far as Intimidate, you really need Imperious Command to make it relevant, otherwise it's a non-stacking -2 to a few things. At low levels, this isn't an option. At mid-levels, Monk has enough maneuverability to work in his favor.

Also, Monk has Hide and Move Silently, he can sneak up on Fighter, initiate grapple, and take him down that way. If he focuses on Str as his primary attribute, using this tactic, he doesn't need much wisdom, because Intimidate checks aren't going his way in the first place.

Think Solid Snake and the unarmed surprise attack. Sneak up behind, snap neck.

Granted, this is no guarantee, and I will admit that if the Fighter can beat any base class, it is Monk.

However, it says something about the Fighter that the only base class he has a chance of beating is the Monk.

[Xodion]

Here's the thing...

People who believe ToB is imba and OP are going to point to this thread as evidence supporting their theory.

In reality, ANY base PhB class can kick a Fighter's rear in combat. It's really not that difficult.

*snip*

I think it depends mostly on the situation, though - in the arena-like position that the OP stated, you don't exactly have anywhere to hide, so rogue and ranger lose some of their advantages. Also, as I've said already, there are so many crazy feats out there that I don't think you can just say a fighter always loses, it's more complicated than that.

Someone earlier said that they don't like the idea of the fighter using ToB feats, but I disagree because then it turns into a ToB vs not ToB fight - surely the fighter can pick any fighter bonus feats they want. Their class feature is (or was) flexibility, at the character construction stage.

[Eldariel]

As far as Intimidate, you really need Imperious Command to make it relevant, otherwise it's a non-stacking -2 to a few things. At low levels, this isn't an option. At mid-levels, Monk has enough maneuverability to work in his favor.

Indeed but still, it only takes one action to destroy Monk with an Imperious Command Fighter so this would probably be a dangerous attack path that a Monk (and many other martial types aside from Paladin) has a hard time countering (I wouldn't even bother bringing Intimidate up without Imperious Command).

Monk's mobility is also kinda reduced if the Fighter is using a Mount (again, Dragon Steed, Leadership, Wild Cohort; both can get one but obviously it's less useful for a Monk since his natural move speed has no use on a mount and he can't really hide as easily or anything) and by the fact that as an enhancement bonus, Boots of Speed give you the same combat speed until like level 12 (and even then only slightly slower) if items are game.


Also, Monk has Hide and Move Silently, he can sneak up on Fighter, initiate grapple, and take him down that way. If he focuses on Str as his primary attribute, using this tactic, he doesn't need much wisdom, because Intimidate checks aren't going his way in the first place.

Hide/Move Silently depends greatly on terrain though since Monk has no easy access to Hide in Plain Sight. But those are, granted, a relevant advantage (though not Combat Reflexes-proof which we can probably assume from an Str-Cha-Con-Dex Fighter with Bull Rush as the combat maneuver of choice, which is probably ultimately what we'd end up with if we made for an optimal all-bases-covered Fighter).


Granted, this is no guarantee, and I will admit that if the Fighter can beat any base class, it is Monk.

However, it says something about the Fighter that the only base class he has a chance of beating is the Monk.

Well, Fighter can certainly take matches with favorable conditions but being favored is another matter entirely. Fighter does make a decent archer (it's possible to feat into RWM + KDev and if you're using targetteer, Arrow Swarm for a massive damage buff) and is probably the second best mundane base intimidator (Intimidating Rage + Immediate Rage Celerity++ Barbarian of course takes the cake) and there are a lot of good feats (though of course, most of them not Fighter bonus feats so Fighter mostly uses his bonus feats avoid having to spend his real feat slots for basic competency like Shock Trooper or Elusive Target).

[Vortling]

Someone earlier said that they don't like the idea of the fighter using ToB feats, but I disagree because then it turns into a ToB vs not ToB fight - surely the fighter can pick any fighter bonus feats they want. Their class feature is (or was) flexibility, at the character construction stage.

Plus you can only take the Martial Study feat 3 times, and your initiator level is half that of a full martial adept. So 3 maneuvers total, you'll never have a maneuver above 5th level, and no recharge mechanic. Not very amazing. Though still better than a whole host of other fighter feats. Martial Stance imposes no limit on the number of times you can take it, but the initiator level restriction still applies and you can only ever be in one stance at a time. All in all I agree, let the fighter take the feats.

[Malachei]

Of course it does.
And Dragon Magazine was stated as official content by Wizards of the Coast.

I'd love to see this. Where is it?


Yes he can. (also note that there is a maneuver that blocks AoO for 3 rounds but a swordsage would not take it)

Yes, he can, once. Then he needs to refresh maneuvers or take the heat.


Furthermore, the Swordsage has another method of being immune to charging. It's the feat Elusive Target. Negates the bonus damage from Power Attack. Shuts down uberchargers flat. Doesn't require an action, either.

While I said above that it is much harder to design a Fighter that will beat a Swordsage than vice versa, Elusive Target is not a working strategy in this case:

The OP specified that both characters are to be 6th level. At 6th level, the Fighter can have Elusive Target, but the Swordsage cannot.

Facing a charger build, the Swordsage in our scenario would use Counter Charge.

[Draz74]

On the original Fighter vs. Swordsage topic, Intimidation subtopic: if WBL is allowed, can't the Swordsage (with Fearsome armor) pull off Imperious Command almost as well as the Fighter can? So the battle again becomes win-initiative-rocket-tag, not "heavily favoring the Fighter."


(I wouldn't even bother bringing Intimidate up without Imperious Command).
Eh, -2 penalties are still nice as long as you don't have to spend a standard or move action to activate them. Which the Zhentarim Soldier, IIRC, doesn't. It's worth the skill points, especially for an arena match.

[Xodion]

On the original Fighter vs. Swordsage topic, Intimidation subtopic: if WBL is allowed, can't the Swordsage (with Fearsome armor) pull off Imperious Command almost as well as the Fighter can? So the battle again becomes win-initiative-rocket-tag, not "heavily favoring the Fighter."

I don't think anyone believes it would make the odds heavily in favour of the fighter, and I can't see anyone saying that, just that it is a serious threat if not prepared for. Also, WBL was only allowed in the sense of non-magical equipment, as magic items were not allowed in the original scenario.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

On the original Fighter vs. Swordsage topic, Intimidation subtopic: if WBL is allowed, can't the Swordsage (with Fearsome armor) pull off Imperious Command almost as well as the Fighter can? So the battle again becomes win-initiative-rocket-tag, not "heavily favoring the Fighter."Theoretically, however Swordsage has many, many better things to do than that which will pre-empt the tactic. Furthermore, Swordsage has more ways of boosting Initiative or going first than the Fighter does, making it less Rocket Tag and more 'I win'.



Eh, -2 penalties are still nice as long as you don't have to spend a standard or move action to activate them. Which the Zhentarim Soldier, IIRC, doesn't. It's worth the skill points, especially for an arena match.

Zhent isn't available until level 9, so that's even later than Imperious Command.

Besides, intimidation isn't that strong a tactic if the GM rules that Intimidate to Demoralize is a mind-affecting ability, which means anything from Protection from Evil on up makes you effectively immune to it.

[Zonugal]

Besides, intimidation isn't that strong a tactic if the GM rules that Intimidate to Demoralize is a mind-affecting ability, which means anything from Protection from Evil on up makes you effectively immune to it.

Are we assuming that the Fighter is evil in this situation?

[Starbuck_II]

Are we assuming that the Fighter is evil in this situation?

Fine we can use Protection from Good as well. :smalltongue:
They work regardless of Alignment.

[Zonugal]

The protection spells are sort of a gamble as you can't know the alignment of your foe.

And in the jungle situation you may not even know that another foe is going after the treasure.

[Rubik]

The protection spells are sort of a gamble as you can't know the alignment of your foe.

And in the jungle situation you may not even know that another foe is going after the treasure.The Protection From Alignment spells only check alignment on bonuses vs summons and such. It protects against possession and so on regardless of alignment.

[Sir_Chivalry]

I'd love to see this. Where is it?

Top left corner of every issue from #323 onwards, as well as being published by the owners of D&D.

Not allowing it in game is a choice, just like any other splatbook, but it's official content.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The protection spells are sort of a gamble as you can't know the alignment of your foe.

And in the jungle situation you may not even know that another foe is going after the treasure.

Not quite.

"This second effect works regardless of alignment"

The last sentence in the part about repressing mind-affecting stuff. It works regardless of the opponent's alignment.

[Zonugal]

My mistake...

But isn't this all built upon the reading that Intimidation is a mental-affecting ability?

Which I could see an argument for but I don't see anything within the core rules to support it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My mistake...

But isn't this all built upon the reading that Intimidation is a mental-affecting ability?

Which I could see an argument for but I don't see anything within the core rules to support it.

Actually, there's quite a bit in the core rules that might lend to this theory, as was pointed out to me when I build Takahashi

First and foremost is this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fear) entry in the SRD which states:

"All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects."

Now, it goes on to define three different fear attacks, however many proponents of this theory also state that since Intimidate to Demoralize is explicitly a Fear effect, that it is also a fear attack, and thus immunity to mind-affecting covers you.

Second, is this cute little line in the Intimidate description:

A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

Fear, of course, links back to the previous point made. There are those that argue that since Immunity to mind-affecting makes you immune to fear attacks, as described, that counts as an immunity to fear and can't be intimidated.

The other problem the Fighter has with this is:

"You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you. "

The Fighter has to first close with the Swordsage, and survive the attempt, before he can attempt to demoralize. Takahashi avoided this with the nefarious CW Samurai 10 class ability, which lets him intimidate within a 30'. Sadly, a Fighter is not a CW Samurai. He might be able to pick up the Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered, but that has two problems:

First, it's once per encounter. You have one shot at this. Takahashi's combo was so powerful because he could spam it every round. Fighter has one chance.

Second, it only affects all enemies within 10' of you. Since a Fighter is likely going to be toting his classic Spiked Chain, he's already GOT a reach of 10', and thus this is pointless, since he's already threatening his opponent. And again, he has to close to within 10' of the Swordsage and survive. Not necessarily as easy as one might think

[tyckspoon]

Which I could see an argument for but I don't see anything within the core rules to support it.


Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

The main point of contention is that the same section then goes on to detail 'fear attacks' as Fear Auras, Fear Rays/Cones, and Frightful Presence. So is/should Intimidate to Demoralize be a Fear Attack, and thus fall under the umbrella statement I underline, or is it a unique thing on its own?

[Malachei]

Top left corner of every issue from #323 onwards, as well as being published by the owners of D&D.

Not allowing it in game is a choice, just like any other splatbook, but it's official content.

I never saw this claim. And while you are right, I think official content is an ambiguous term. Dragon is obviously using the claim to address gamers' reservations. Personally, I think some of these reservations are well-founded.

Does that make it RAW in your eyes?

;)

[Sir_Chivalry]

I never saw this claim. And while you are right, I think official content is an ambiguous term. Dragon is obviously using the claim to address gamers' reservations. Personally, I think some of these reservations are well-founded.

Does that make it RAW in your eyes?

;)

since Rules As Written bears no significance on this, I'll assume you mean do I think it's legitimate?

No more or less than Races of the Wild or Dungeonscape.

You as a DM can decide to allow or disallow anything you'd like, as DnD truly is a "choose what makes sense for your world" game. If you choose to disallow Complete Arcane, a book published by the people who own DnD and which is listed as official content with the Dungeons and Dragons logo on its cover, does that make it no longer official?

No.

But you can choose to not allow anything you'd like. Same argument, different direction, just because the blackguard class is in the DMG and the SRD does not force you in any way to use it for your villains or allow players to have their characters take levels in it.

Do I use Dragon magazine? Yes, I do. For fluff mainly. Are the mechanics in it suspect? Occasionally, but no more than any official book, 3rd party book or homebrew thread.

Dragon magazine isn't using the claim to address gamers' reservations, it doesn't have to. It is official content, but no one can force you to use any of it.

[Draz74]

I don't think anyone believes it would make the odds heavily in favour of the fighter, and I can't see anyone saying that, just that it is a serious threat if not prepared for.
Yeah, but I was still bothered by the way that Intimidation was only being mentioned as an advantage for the Fighter, when it's also a Swordsage class skill.


Also, WBL was only allowed in the sense of non-magical equipment, as magic items were not allowed in the original scenario.
Huh. I had forgotten that part. Oh well, that will hurt the Fighter a lot more than it hurts the Swordsage, in spite of the Fearsome Armor thing.


Theoretically, however Swordsage has many, many better things to do than that which will pre-empt the tactic. Furthermore, Swordsage has more ways of boosting Initiative or going first than the Fighter does, making it less Rocket Tag and more 'I win'.
The Swordsage will probably have a higher Initiative modifier than the Fighter, yes. But probably not +19 higher. So it still qualifies as "rocket tag" IMO.


Zhent isn't available until level 9, so that's even later than Imperious Command.
Correct. Which makes it even stranger that Intimidation tactics were being toted as a Fighter advantage, since the thread has partially focused on a Level 6 situation.


Besides, intimidation isn't that strong a tactic if the GM rules that Intimidate to Demoralize is a mind-affecting ability, which means anything from Protection from Evil on up makes you effectively immune to it.

Even if Intimidation is ruled to be [mind-effecting], which I agree with even though it's not 100% explicit in the rules, then the GM has to make an even more subjective ruling about whether Protection from Evil has any effect on such a [mind-effecting] effect.

Protection from Evil says:
Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

[Charm] and [Compulsion] effects are mentioned specifically. [Fear] and [Mind-Affecting] are not. Personally, I don't think Intimidate would count as "mental control."

Although I suppose there are effects available at Level 6 that make characters truly immune to [mind-affecting] as a whole. Necropolitan, if nothing else.

[Starbuck_II]

Protection from Evil says:
Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

[Charm] and [Compulsion] effects are mentioned specifically. [Fear] and [Mind-Affecting] are not. Personally, I don't think Intimidate would count as "mental control."

Although I suppose there are effects available at Level 6 that make characters truly immune to [mind-affecting] as a whole. Necropolitan, if nothing else.

While Shaken isn't mental control, Frightened and Panic do seem to be.

Very arguable.